EPTDoes Tesagi Exist? - Page 2
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NoS-Craig
Australia3090 Posts
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TT1
Canada9990 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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TT1
Canada9990 Posts
On January 08 2019 17:27 Anc13nt wrote: I agree with Letmelose that the game is incredibly, but not perfectly, balanced. For that reason, whether or not Tesagi is real or Protoss is weakest is unimportant. I will admit that most bonjwas are Terran and that Protoss has won the fewest Starleagues out of the three races. However, Protoss is also the least-played race so that is important to consider. Also, the first three bonjwas were near the beginning of Starcraft competition so this argument is not as relevant to the discussion of racial balance in the modern meta. I would finally add that, even though Bisu does not have as many Starleagues as Flash and Jaedong, his winrate was pretty close to theirs and I think if he was more clutch of a tournament player, he probably would've had more starleague success. Basically, I think that he is closer to them in terms of skill than his Starleague career would suggest. "However, Protoss is also the least-played race so that is important to consider." source? Right now, there's 92 players listed in the sponbbang rankings, here's the race split: 33 T 31 P 28 Z Despite the reasonably even split, there's only 4 protoss players among the top 20 atm. source: http://sponbbang.com/bj/?order1=전체&order2=elo&detail_td=winrate&month1=2017-05&month2=2019-01&race=전체&map_id=전체 | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10091 Posts
On January 08 2019 16:01 Jealous wrote: I think it's a bit disingenuous to remove just Flash. At the very least, you should remove the top performing ZvT Zerg as well, to remove two of the outliers. Repeating this process for say the top 3 and bottom 3 TvZ/ZvT players would likely make the results balance out to a better estimate of the match-up at the pro level? If there is a significant outlier and you remove said outlier and you find that your results are actually quite mellow, how is it disingenuous? As an example, this didn't happen but if Bisu came in, smashed savior, and alone upped the PvZ % by like 4-5% points, and if you removed him Protoss was still like 50/50 in the matchup instead of 55/45, do you still think the matchup would be Protoss favored? Is PvT favored to Terran if FlaSh is the only one who can confidently say he has a good matchup that is above 50/50, and if you remove him, PvT is toss favored? As an addition, with FlaSh out of ASL7 and Last looking weak, while many thought Terrans are destroyed now, there are still more Terrans than any other race in the tournament. However, what quality of Terrans are we looking at? How many are we doing to keep moving to the Ro16? How many will we see in Ro8. My guess is, unless Last steps up again and returns to form, I'm really only seeing Sharp as the Terran who makes Ro8. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2215 Posts
On January 08 2019 17:25 Dante08 wrote: Tesagi DOES NOT exist. The Terran race was propped up by Flash (and to a certain extent Last) in the post Kespa era. Watch Terran fall into mediocrity going into 2019 with these 2 players taking a break. what about boxer's era? nada's era? iloveoov's era? When a terran player dominates the scene they always talk about the fact that he is so amazing and shit and never take into consideration racial balance nor map pool. imo if bw was only one race and always mirror matchups i bet bisu wouldave never lost the best player in the world title. if bisu played terran he wouldave been greater than flash. i know some ppl here hate LS cause he hacked and shit, but his points are quite good on this interview. | ||
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ProBell
Thailand145 Posts
Did it replace the old BW? or korean tournaments still runnin the old one? | ||
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
Flash was dominating in both the KeSPA and post-KeSPA era. What does "post-KeSPA" mean, please? | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 08 2019 17:34 FlaShFTW wrote: If there is a significant outlier and you remove said outlier and you find that your results are actually quite mellow, how is it disingenuous? As an example, this didn't happen but if Bisu came in, smashed savior, and alone upped the PvZ % by like 4-5% points, and if you removed him Protoss was still like 50/50 in the matchup instead of 55/45, do you still think the matchup would be Protoss favored? Is PvT favored to Terran if FlaSh is the only one who can confidently say he has a good matchup that is above 50/50, and if you remove him, PvT is toss favored? As an addition, with FlaSh out of ASL7 and Last looking weak, while many thought Terrans are destroyed now, there are still more Terrans than any other race in the tournament. However, what quality of Terrans are we looking at? How many are we doing to keep moving to the Ro16? How many will we see in Ro8. My guess is, unless Last steps up again and returns to form, I'm really only seeing Sharp as the Terran who makes Ro8. Once we add enough caveats, nothing is off limits, which makes both sides sound pretty disingenuous at times. One of the main reasons viewers of AfreecaTV started to argue for terrans being too strong, was due to what they saw on a daily basis over thousands of online sponsored matches. http://sponbbang.com/race/?month1=2017-05&month2=2019-01&bj=이영호, 김성현 As of now, there are 47,925 recorded online sponsored matches on the above site dating back to May 2017. Excluding matches played by Flash and Last, we still have a data set of 42,196 online sponsored matches. Even if we ignore online sponsored matches that had Flash or Last in it, terrans still have the best overall record (by a slight margin) compared to the other two races. If we exclude only Flash, terran players have a superior win rate against both the zerg and protoss race within the realm of online sponsored matches with a sample size of 44,734 matches. http://sponbbang.com/race/?month1=2017-05&month2=2019-01&bj=이영호 This is the main thrust of the Taesagi argument presented by the some viewers of AfreecaTV, and while I agree that online sponsored matches have a different nature from tournament games played within a LAN setting, it is somewhat misleading to say Taesagi supporters are totally delusional because their main argument is based on their viewing experience from online sponsored matches, not tournament matches which are not daily occurences. The sheer overwhelming number of online sponsored matches changes perspective to a greater degree than one imagines, especially if you watch these streams on a daily basis. I realize that the focus of this article is for racial balance in recent years within a tournament setting, but this hot issue was birthed mostly due to the online sponsored matches, the main streaming content that allowed the Brood War scene to thrive within a streaming platform. I wish this article addressed this issue in greater detail to give voice to both sides of the table rather than presenting only one side of the argument. | ||
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Ty2
United States1434 Posts
Edit: Nice read. Loving the discussion in the comments too. | ||
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
OSL 2001 – 2012  OnGameNet Starleague (OSL)P: 62 T: 97 Z: 89 MSL 2002 – 2011 MBCGame StarCraft League (MSL)P: 51 T: 92 Z: 65 ASL 2016 – 2018 ASLP: 17 T: 18 Z: 13 Total: the number Protoss players got in top 8 of the OSL + MSL + ASL: 62+51+17 = 130 the number Terran players got top 8 of the OSL + MSL + ASL: 97+92+18 = 207 the number Zerg players got top 8 of the OSL + MSL + ASL: 89+65+13 = 167 | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On January 08 2019 18:15 Letmelose wrote: Once we add enough caveats, nothing is off limits, which makes both sides sound pretty disingenuous times. One of the main reasons viewers of AfreecaTV started to argue for terrans being too strong, was due to what they saw on a daily basis over thousands of online sponsored matches. http://sponbbang.com/race/?month1=2017-05&month2=2019-01&bj=이영호, 김성현 As of now, there are 47,925 recorded online sponsored matches on the above site dating back to May 2017. Excluding matches played by Flash and Last, we still have a data set of 42,196 online sponsored matches. Even if we ignore online sponsored matches that had Flash or Last in it, terrans still have the best overall record (by a slight margin) compared to the other two races. If we exclude only Flash, terran players have a superior win rate against both the zerg and protoss race within the realm of online sponsored matches with a sample size of 44,734 matches. http://sponbbang.com/race/?month1=2017-05&month2=2019-01&bj=이영호 This is the main thrust of the Taesagi argument presented by the some viewers of AfreecaTV, and while I agree that online sponsored matches have a different nature from tournament games played within a LAN setting, it is somewhat misleading to say Taesagi supporters are totally delusional because their main argument is based on their viewing experience from online sponsored matches, not tournament matches which are not daily occurences. The sheer overwhelming number of online sponsored matches changes perspective to a greater degree than one imagines, especially if you watch these streams on a daily basis. I realize that the focus of this article is for racial balance in recent years within a tournament setting, but this hot issue was birthed mostly due to the online sponsored matches, the main streaming content that allowed the Brood War scene to thrive within a streaming platform. I wish this article addressed this issue in greater detail to give voice to both sides of the table rather than presenting only one side of the argument. Yes sounds very reasonable. I am itching to hurl stuff at BigFan but it's only fair to suppose BigFan might not have been aware of this :D BigFan I suppose you could at least have a look and update your data with a more complete sample of games? | ||
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RWLabs
Korea (South)273 Posts
Firstly the idea that Flash caused tesagi can only be said by people who picked up Starcraft in the Afreeca days. The Marine actually cites the patch where dropship acceleration was boosted a critical point in tesagi discussions. Throughout Starcraft history, Terrans have never been last place in average win rates, and coincidentally top ten players by almost any metric prominently feature Terrans. This is further solidified by the fact that ZvP is the most biased matchup whereas PvT is not nearly as pronounced, which may explain why Terrans took home the gold exactly twice as many times as Protoss. But I'm just using data from the Kespa days, although I'd argue it's the most accurate as we deal with progamers not BJs and we have access to tens of thousands of games to make up our data. But: when looking at Sponbbang matches over the entire time it was active, Terrans have the highest win rate. Some people tell me that Flash and Last are so good that they're not human, so I took their data out of the results. Yup, even with the top #1 and #2 not there Terrans still have the highest win rate. I'd have to ask if a race that requires multiple top players to be exempt from the data to have semblance of similar win rates is truly just as strong as the others. From a purely statistical point of view, I think it's undeniable Terrans are at the very least advantaged though I'm not sure I'd use the term 'Tesagi'. No you don't need to choose Terran if you want to win (sorry Stork), but there's a clear correlation between good performance and playing Terran- whether you go by average win rates, number of championship victories, Bonjwa count, dominance over certain time period, etc. Common objections (if Ygosu is an indication of anything): - To call it tesagi or teyuri is to discount the Terran players' hard effort. Almost everyone who showed decent results worked hard in the Kespa days, though Stork, Grrr, and Sea are notable exceptions (oh and most of Estro and Sparkyz, but that's another story). Bisu, JD, Action, and Ggaemo were (in the case of the latter two: are) notorious practice machines. From a reversed perspective, would it not be discounting Protoss and Zerg players' hard effort to say they didn't try hard as the Terran counterparts? I also sense a tinge of irony that Flash gave the interview in SC2 where he thought Protosses were OP. Regardless of the veracity of the statement, did Flash discount other players' effort in a truly respectable example of hypocrisy? If you truly believe that Terrans worked harder, the burden of proof is on you if null hypotheses are used at all in the scientific method. - If Terrans are so overpowered, why doesn't the majority of the population play it? This assumes that the majority of the population plays exclusively to win. Protoss is indubitably easier at an amateur level, and some people play for fun even if that means losing more. For instance my Zerg is better than my Protoss but I just love using the high templar. And plus I'm a huge fan of Reach. Not to mention that pre-S rank Protosses are dominant in every match-up. If there is a balance patch, I'm all for making Terrans play easier to help out the noobs. - If progamers truly think tesagi is real, why don't they switch to Terran? By this logic, Terran players should perform identically if they switch to Zerg or Protoss. Both of these are unrealistic. - Terran progamers who off-race as Protoss tend to beat Protosses who off-race as Terrans easily. Is this not an indication of their skill differences? No, because this assumes that the same skills are required to play all races. What equivalent would there be for years of reaver micro practice in Terran? Besides I think this reinforces the fact that on lower tiers Protoss is just easier to win with. - [So and so] won recently and defeated [a strong Terran]. How overpowered is the race that beat the highest levels of tesagi? Ygosu actually said this about Soulkey and Effort. This is what we call cherrypicking, and I'd rather rely on the data formulated by tens of thousands of games that greatly reduce extraneous variables. TL;DR: It's unclear whether good players choose Terrans or if Terrans are stronger than other races, but historically Terrans have performed very well by multiple metrics. In an optimal world I'd like for Terrans and Zergs to be easier to handle in lower tiers and Protoss to not suck in the higher ones. | ||
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Poegim
Poland264 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/kAULM4K.png) | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
Of course it's a complicated issue, and aside from the utterly stupid idea of "good players just picked terran more often in the course of 20+ years" interesting arguments can be made pro and con. | ||
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
I think that Terran is weakest race but Boxer, Nada, iloveoov and Flash are strongest players. | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
Also, fyi Protoss is doing even worse at "top amateur" level, both in the foreigner and the Korean scene. I remember Scan mentioning that he lacked Protoss practice partners. | ||
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Poegim
Poland264 Posts
On January 08 2019 21:01 bovienchien wrote: @Poegim: What would happen if Boxer, Nada, iloveoov and Flash don't play StarCraft? I think that Terran is weakest race but Boxer, Nada, iloveoov and Flash are strongest players. Nothin will change becouse top2/top3 was also occupied in same frequency by that races. | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
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