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On January 08 2019 21:01 bovienchien wrote:
@Poegim: What would happen if Boxer, Nada, iloveoov and Flash don't play StarCraft?
I think that Terran is weakest race but Boxer, Nada, iloveoov and Flash are strongest players.
I think it's reaching to claim that Terrans are the weakest race but simultaneously claim that Terrans produced the best players. At the very least there is an incredibly strong correlation between bonjwa status and Terrans, which is unseen for Protosses and occurred just once for Zergs.
Also on the impact of maps: I'd argue their significance is not as high given the 12 years of data and hundreds of maps. I can't see why mapmakers would intentionally make Terran favoured maps and we saw circulation of maps that favour different races. So either map choices aren't as significant or there's something about Terrans that makes them dominant in most maps, even post Mercury days when mapmakers figured out what map features advantage which race. I think the former is agreeable for both sides.
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United Kingdom12057 Posts
On January 08 2019 20:20 Poegim wrote:Protoss is garbage race, eveyrone know it, and Tesagi exist, everyone know it. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/kAULM4K.png)
Note how many different Terran winners there's been and note who they are.
Terran in general have had tournament winners, the 4 winners there Boxer, Oov, Nada, FlaSh have all understood the game far better than any of their peers in their respective eras. I'm also not entirely sure what that's supposed to be showing because it doesn't show Jangbi at all who won 2 starleagues near the end and does contain FanTaSy who unfortunately joined the kong line.
FlaSh could play any race and beat the vast majority of pros at his level. He is just vastly superior in overall knowledge of the game which is what led to his dominance. The same reason why Bisu dominated PvZ, he had oov teaching him and his own influence also. Outside of the top 4, there's very few terrans who I would even consider S tier. Of course FanTaSy was one of them given his proleague results and I'd say Sea was very close, but outside of them? There were very, very few S tier terrans.
You've also got to remember that game balance and the meta has changed considerably in the past 20 years. What was standard in 2001 would never fly today and if we were to go back to 2001 standards with todays meta the game would look entirely different.
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On January 08 2019 22:02 Qikz wrote:
FlaSh could play any race and beat the vast majority of pros at his level. He is just vastly superior in overall knowledge of the game which is what led to his dominance.
How do you back that up and what exactly are“ the vast majority of pros“. I could say Bisu plays bettet zerg than the vast majority of pros. I can't back that up either and it's too unspecific. Does flash play better Z than Where?
And how can you judge if his game knowledge is superior to other players?
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On January 08 2019 22:24 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2019 22:02 Qikz wrote:
FlaSh could play any race and beat the vast majority of pros at his level. He is just vastly superior in overall knowledge of the game which is what led to his dominance. How do you back that up and what exactly are“ the vast majority of pros“. I could say Bisu plays bettet zerg than the vast majority of pros. I can't back that up either and it's too unspecific. Does flash play better Z than Where? And how can you judge if his game knowledge is superior to other players?
He chose Terran.
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I knew the comments wouldn’t disappoint
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It seems to me that Bigfan cherry picked some arguments to reach the conclusion that he wanted to reach:
That is, he dismisses some of the T dominance when Sea and other were crushing Zergs left and right, because there were wild fluctuations in level, and most pros returned to scene, but did include SSLs 7 and 8, in his analysis of titles won. There were not a single Starleague (OSL or MSL) champion in these SSls, so he should probably dismissed them as well, on the same grounds.
As for Flash effect, should also we have a Bisu effect, or Jaedong effect accounting for the slightly less abyssal Protoss number of Starleague wins (both KeSPA and post-KeSPA) or the fact that Z had just one bonjwa?
I dont know if I am also biased (liked LegalLord's "balance and bonjwas 1 and 2" very much when I read it in 2016) but to me a conclusion that yes, T is slightly imbalanced (and P bad, mainly because of bad PvZ) makes much more sense than to say that "there's no Tesagi".
Edit: But of course, ASL 5 proved that maps can fine tune the balance (of course, balancing 3 non-mirror match-ups perfectly should not be easy, to say the least).
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On January 08 2019 21:01 bovienchien wrote:
@Poegim: What would happen if Boxer, Nada, iloveoov and Flash don't play StarCraft?
I think that Terran is weakest race but Boxer, Nada, iloveoov and Flash are strongest players.
What would happen if they did, but Bisu, Nal-ra, Reach, Stork and JangBi didnt?
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The comments here are great, but the only thing that puzzles me about the article is the one-liner saying that Warcraft 2 was blasted by critics for being symmetrical. I was a kid at the time but I don't remember that at all and, while most of the reviews are probably in magazines in some archive somewhere, my google search for the time period turned up nothing that even mentioned that defect.
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Ah yes, the good old argument that everything's balanced except that some terran players are just better. A real shame that those Protoss players wouldn't just try harder and become bonjwas themselves.
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Tesagi has a nice ring to it. Rolls right of the tongue. I don't care whether it is real or not but I love saying it. Tesagi. Tesagi. Tesagi.
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I felt a little unsafe reading an article with the first headline being "racial differences" in public. Great read, jokes aside.
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How come there are so many Terrans in top 100 global ranking? Isn’t it like 66% of players in top 100 global are Terran?
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On January 08 2019 14:49 Lazare1969 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2019 14:07 TT1 wrote:
Are we actually counting ASL5? With maps like Sparkle, 3rd world and Transistor..
You can argue against Tesagi but you can't argue against the fact that Protoss has always had god awful results. They basically need to have their titles spoon fed to them. And let's not act like Protoss players are "weaker" than the other races, Bisu wasn't able to do anything in the SOSPA era and he couldn't hold a candle to JD or FlaSh in the KeSPA era (despite his innovative/mechanical prowess). Bisu didn't have the best PvT though, yet Flash's TvP was his best. Remember how people would make fun of his carrier control in the same way with BeSt and his dohsairs?
I feel like Protoss fans have always and maybe are doomed to forever wait for a player that has the PvZ of Bisu combined with the PvT of Stork/Jangbi. If Bisu's PvT was as good as their's he'd probably have twice as many golds.
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I actually really enjoyed this article, but it does nothing but prove an already known entity, that pure win stats are fairly well distributed at a pro level. Does this disprove tesagi?
Well, that all depends on how we define tesagi. Is it a general imbalance or is it an imbalance of achievable skill cap, in other words, outliers. If it's the latter, then excluding Flash from the conversation is the opposite of productive.
Let's exclude the possibility that Terran is imbalanced in general, because that's been beaten to death and I think this article does a good job at beating that horse.
As for the outliers, at a glance, it seems like tesagi is real, however, even if you statistically proved that over the 12 years of pro BW... Is there enough data to prove a point? When a player can be the most dominant for one race over 5 years, a decade seems insignificant as a sample size. (excluding post-KeSPA due to players coming and going for external reasons, lesser stability during the regrowth)
At most, I think you can conclude which has had the most and strongest outliers, but the sample is so small. Do we rank from most success to least or based on winrate? (Because success is also based on opportunity)
The most accurate representation would probably to take the best player from each race, each year and compare stats excluding head to head. Let's call the exclusion, the Jaedong effect because he may well be the second best player of all time, we want to compare him to Boxer, not Flash. (Conversely, you can repeat the same excersize exclusively head to head, which would provide relative success) From that, you'll probably reach the conclusion that T >= Z > P
My own hypothesis on the matter is not that Protoss is weaker, but it is how matchups shake out... Quick comparison:
Terran wants to have more stuff, in better position and never wants to trade
Zerg wants to have more stuff, more speed with control all over and always wants to trade
That leaves Protoss in a tough spot with not only different units and flavour per matchup (which all races do), but also different mindset and approach to map control, game pace and willingness to trade units. It's not harder to play Protoss, but it is more difficult to master all 3 matchups and none of the Protoss greats really did, they always had one matchup that was an Achilles heel.
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Nice post, thank you BigFan! 
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People get confused at looking at the pvt stats but the issue is that zvp is zergs "easy" match up and tvz is Terrans "easy" match up. Pvt is supposed to be protoss' easy match up but I'd say it's actually more or less balanced compared to zvp and and tvz. The moral of the story is toss don't get an easy match up.
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too much damn terminology these days
oh the guy above me mentioned how protoss gets the short end of the stick a lot and i agree
simply put, general features of a map being tight or open will suck for protoss in exactly 1 out of 2 matchups
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On January 09 2019 00:42 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Ah yes, the good old argument that everything's balanced except that some terran players are just better. A real shame that those Protoss players wouldn't just try harder and become bonjwas themselves.
Yeah we're all special snowflakes. Each race deserves an equal number of bonjwas and first place finishes. It's inconceivable that there are any selection biases going on with regards to races, let alone any peer effects.
I'm glad people are finally recognizing that Bisu was the strongest player in starcraft history.
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Guys I challenge all of you to look at both sides of the argument. Those who don’t believe in tesagi, what are the strongest arguments one could think of to argue it?
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Vatican City State1872 Posts
Balance patch 2.5
Observers now have 60shield/60hp
Medics Heal ability now regenerates 5% slower
Arbiters Recall ability now costs 200 mana and stasis costs 150
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Developer Manifesto:
Observers having 120hp makes it so that scourge/lurkers are slightly less as good in zvp
We feel that tvz is a relatively fair matchup but to skew the % towards zerg the slightest bit we have lowered the regeneration rate of medics by 5%
Arbiters are the reason terran can't really ever get a 4th/5th base in tvp, carriers could be as well but you can design maps around carriers, you can't really design maps around arbiters.
We feel like these are polarized units towards specific matchups and are the easiest to tinker with without affecting the balance of their other matchups. IE Observers being stronger doesn't really change pvt, medics do not affect tvp and arbiters do not affect pvz.
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EPT
