EPTtoo many times i see terran press liftoff and the scvs auto-escape from the ling/ultra or zealots at a remote expansion
Does Tesagi Exist? - Page 4
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
too many times i see terran press liftoff and the scvs auto-escape from the ling/ultra or zealots at a remote expansion | ||
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REDBLUEGREEN
Germany1903 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On January 09 2019 03:33 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: Terrans are just tryhards man. I mean just take a look at the Translated Pro Vids Coordination thread. Terran bros helping each other out producing and translating heaps of tutorials meanwhile Ps just got 2 vids lol. Even back in Kespa days T coaches were the most famous. The whole SKT1 Terran lineage is like some Kung Fu school shit with one Sifu passing the style on to the next one. Meanwhile Zergs are out there struggling and Ps are the token burly guy in the Kung Fu movie with OP genetics but shit technique. Sure man. Skill just comes natural to some and others have to train hard for it. The first group plays toss  | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1407 Posts
On January 09 2019 03:33 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: Terrans are just tryhards man. I mean just take a look at the Translated Pro Vids Coordination thread. Terran bros helping each other out producing and translating heaps of tutorials meanwhile Ps just got 2 vids lol. Even back in Kespa days T coaches were the most famous. The whole SKT1 Terran lineage is like some Kung Fu school shit with one Sifu passing the style on to the next one. Meanwhile Zergs are out there struggling and Ps are the token burly guy in the Kung Fu movie with OP genetics but shit technique. Mostly just flash having some amazing guides that is comprehensive and explains his thought process well no other race really has guides close to his at all | ||
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
"Tesagi doesn't exist!" yelled the Flash fan. "Dark Templars make up for the fact that Protoss has no core late game unit and needs to use several waves of a mid-game army with gimmicky auxiliary late-game units like a couple of templars, Archons and Arbiters to even hope to beat a late game terran army!" screeches the same guy who laughs at people who build Archons in Terran games because a single emp can take out like 6 Archons for free and science vessels cost less gas than a single Archon. I'm not salty at all. This is fine. It's just raining single drops of saltwater in my room. On my cheeks. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
On January 08 2019 18:15 Letmelose wrote: Once we add enough caveats, nothing is off limits, which makes both sides sound pretty disingenuous at times. One of the main reasons viewers of AfreecaTV started to argue for terrans being too strong, was due to what they saw on a daily basis over thousands of online sponsored matches. http://sponbbang.com/race/?month1=2017-05&month2=2019-01&bj=이영호, 김성현 As of now, there are 47,925 recorded online sponsored matches on the above site dating back to May 2017. Excluding matches played by Flash and Last, we still have a data set of 42,196 online sponsored matches. Even if we ignore online sponsored matches that had Flash or Last in it, terrans still have the best overall record (by a slight margin) compared to the other two races. If we exclude only Flash, terran players have a superior win rate against both the zerg and protoss race within the realm of online sponsored matches with a sample size of 44,734 matches. http://sponbbang.com/race/?month1=2017-05&month2=2019-01&bj=이영호 This is the main thrust of the Taesagi argument presented by the some viewers of AfreecaTV, and while I agree that online sponsored matches have a different nature from tournament games played within a LAN setting, it is somewhat misleading to say Taesagi supporters are totally delusional because their main argument is based on their viewing experience from online sponsored matches, not tournament matches which are not daily occurences. The sheer overwhelming number of online sponsored matches changes perspective to a greater degree than one imagines, especially if you watch these streams on a daily basis. I realize that the focus of this article is for racial balance in recent years within a tournament setting, but this hot issue was birthed mostly due to the online sponsored matches, the main streaming content that allowed the Brood War scene to thrive within a streaming platform. I wish this article addressed this issue in greater detail to give voice to both sides of the table rather than presenting only one side of the argument. That's actually interesting that this began from the sponsored matches. I had thought that Terran's great advantage in tournaments was TvT, because it is the one mirror matchup that always goes on a long time (more chances for a better player to comeback or cement a victory), and less volatile in build order advantages (also better chance for better player to show their skill). Zerg actually post surprisingly good results for having a mirror that is in my unbacked-by-data opinion a little more unforgiving than PvP (in that, although both matchups have build order disadvantages, PvP can sometimes go on for a long game, and if the builds are equal it seems a little less of a razor's edge). But then when comparing the Zergs to the Protoss, we have to sympathise for the early game problem of PvZ where a lesser overall player can knock out a good protoss player if they hit a hydra rush. It is interesting that even if you take out the tournament issues of players getting knocked out by lesser players, there's still a Terran bias. Perhaps because the Terran matchups have more skill transfer between them, where ZvZ can be it's own game entirely, or perhaps just because when used to their highest potential, Terran units really do have more possibility and potential. It is a funny thing, because Terran has long been considered the hardest race to master, Protoss has long been considered a little weak at the highest level, and Zerg has long been considered volatile and prone to short hotstreaks. Still, it's always been impressive that there have been dominant players from all races. The balance achieved in BW has also long been considered an incredible fluke. It does seem like Terran is the most stable and the most rewarding for a skilled player with good managements in mid and late game, with good opportunities for surprise in the early game. In certain matchups that just isn't true, but all Terran matchups seem to have gotten lucky, with TvP being hard but not unrewarding to the stronger player. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On January 08 2019 17:31 TT1 wrote: "However, Protoss is also the least-played race so that is important to consider." source? Right now, there's 92 players listed in the sponbbang rankings, here's the race split: 33 T 31 P 28 Z Despite the reasonably even split, there's only 4 protoss players among the top 20 atm. source: http://sponbbang.com/bj/?order1=전체&order2=elo&detail_td=winrate&month1=2017-05&month2=2019-01&race=전체&map_id=전체  OnGameNet Starleague (OSL)Sorry, I meant in the context of Starleagues of the past. Also, I have no statistics on the racial distributions in the MSL either, so I'm aware that my statement can only be shown to be true for the OSLs. Nonetheless, if you look at the race distribution chart of OSL participants, Protoss definitely looks like the least commonly played race (looks like only 24-26% of OSL participants were Protoss and yet they won 29.4% of the OSLs (10 OSL wins, 9 silvers). I'm aware that the statistics are worse for MSL (they won only 4 OSLs and had 9 silvers). Assuming 25% of players were Protoss in all starleagues (which I'm aware is a big assumption and I hope someone will check MSL racial distribution to make sure if my guess is close to reality), Protoss won 14/60 (23.3%) starleagues and got 18/60 (30%) silvers, which does not indicate that protoss players performed disproportionately poorly compared to the other two races, imo. I think the main reason Protoss is seen as being kind of "bad" is because they never had a player like Flash or Jaedong. BIsu in an alternate universe probably should have won 4-5 Starleagues if he was a better tournament player. Also, If someone could count the Starleague semifinals that would give better information. Lastly, I would like to add that I think that LegalLord wrote some of the most insightful articles about racial balance. My own opinion is, yes, terran seems to be barely stronger and protoss barely weaker but the game is so well balanced that these differences in the strength of the races are very small and insignificant. I'm of the belief that, if necessary, the map pool is enough to balance the races and there is no need to change unit stats or anything like that. | ||
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LUCKY_NOOB
Bulgaria1417 Posts
Then people started saying Tesagi and it felt right even before I knew what it meant. Now this article is supposed to change that? I need MORE PROOF. The solution: Change races for every non mirror match up on every map. Example: EffOrt vs Flash on Circuit Breaker Game 1 is a ZvT However you also do Game 2 on the same map that is Effort as Terran and Flash as Zerg... Surely that will tell us something OR we just get more games! \o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/ | ||
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TT1
Canada9995 Posts
On January 09 2019 06:57 Anc13nt wrote: OnGameNet Starleague (OSL)Sorry, I meant in the context of Starleagues of the past. Also, I have no statistics on the racial distributions in the MSL either, so I'm aware that my statement can only be shown to be true for the OSLs. Nonetheless, if you look at the race distribution chart of OSL participants, Protoss definitely looks like the least commonly played race (looks like only 24-26% of OSL participants were Protoss and yet they won 29.4% of the OSLs (10 OSL wins, 9 silvers). I'm aware that the statistics are worse for MSL (they won only 4 OSLs and had 9 silvers). Assuming 25% of players were Protoss in all starleagues (which I'm aware is a big assumption and I hope someone will check MSL racial distribution to make sure if my guess is close to reality), Protoss won 14/60 (23.3%) starleagues and got 18/60 (30%) silvers, which does not indicate that protoss players performed disproportionately poorly compared to the other two races, imo. I think the main reason Protoss is seen as being kind of "bad" is because they never had a player like Flash or Jaedong. BIsu in an alternate universe probably should have won 4-5 Starleagues if he was a better tournament player. Also, If someone could count the Starleague semifinals that would give better information. "I think the main reason Protoss is seen as being kind of "bad" is because they never had a player like Flash or Jaedong. BIsu in an alternate universe probably should have won 4-5 Starleagues if he was a better tournament player" I have an issue with these type of arguments because they're baseless, there's nothing backing your statement. Throughout the entire history of the game there hasn't been a single bonjwa calibre P player whereas T and Z had multiple bonjwas. I could say Bisu never became a player like Flash or Jaedong because his race held him back. Hell he wasn't even able to dominate BW even when Flash and Jaedong were playing SC2. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On January 09 2019 07:10 TT1 wrote: "I think the main reason Protoss is seen as being kind of "bad" is because they never had a player like Flash or Jaedong. BIsu in an alternate universe probably should have won 4-5 Starleagues if he was a better tournament player" I have an issue with these type of arguments because they're baseless, there's nothing backing your statement. Throughout the entire history of the game there hasn't been a single bonjwa calibre P player whereas T and Z had multiple bonjwas. I could say Bisu never became a player like Flash or Jaedong because his race held him back. Hell he wasn't even able to dominate BW even when Flash and Jaedong were playing SC2. There has been 5 Bonjwas, 4 terrans and a discredited Zerg whom most SC fans want to just forget. | ||
2Pacalypse-
Croatia9491 Posts
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TT1
Canada9995 Posts
On January 09 2019 07:16 Geo.Rion wrote: There has been 5 Bonjwas, 4 terrans and a discredited Zerg whom most SC fans want to just forget. jd, july and savior = 3 zergs flash, nada, iloveoov, boxer = 4 terrans | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On January 09 2019 07:10 TT1 wrote: "I think the main reason Protoss is seen as being kind of "bad" is because they never had a player like Flash or Jaedong. BIsu in an alternate universe probably should have won 4-5 Starleagues if he was a better tournament player" I have an issue with these type of arguments because they're baseless, there's nothing backing your statement. Throughout the entire history of the game there hasn't been a single bonjwa calibre P player whereas T and Z had multiple bonjwas. I could say Bisu never became a player like Flash or Jaedong because his race held him back. Hell he wasn't even able to dominate BW even when Flash and Jaedong were playing SC2. I'll admit it's pretty surprising the lack of greatest protoss players but there is always an element of randomness in competition. The fact that out of the 6 Bonjwas, 5 were terran and 1 was zerg (maybe even 2 zergs because even though Jaedong is not considered a bonjwa, he was pretty dominant and had more achievements than most of the Bonjwas besides Nada and Flash, so I think one could make a case for him), I think this fact gives a lot of credence to the idea Protoss is the worst when it comes to the greatest of players and I am not aware of many reasonable counterarguments besides bad luck. My point that BIsu would have won 4-5 Starleagues I know is pure speculation but still seems reasonable to me. Bisu is skillwise almost as good as Flash and Jaedong even though his Starleague career is less successful. Bisu himself said, "Compared to Jae-dong or Young-ho, I guess I didn't have that much ambition," and "Maybe, back then, a part of me subconsciously thought that I didn't need to try as hard since in Proleague I had already done well enough." In terms of peak elo and winrates, which could be argued as better indicators of skill than Starleagues, BIsu is really close to Jaedong. So even though there is no Protoss bonjwa, I think many would argue that in terms of peak skill, the third greatest player of all time is a Protoss, which is important to consider when discussing whether Protoss is considerably weaker at the highest level of professional BW. Source: https://esports.htc.com/articles/remembering-bisu Edit: There were only 5 bonjwas, of whom 4 were terran. My bad. | ||
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Immaterial
Canada510 Posts
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Kingdom[NaS]
74 Posts
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
On January 08 2019 15:45 Ej_ wrote: Protoss sucks dick And zerg sucked dick in proleague TE SA GI So true. lol But BW is the best game ever! | ||
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Eywa-
Canada4876 Posts
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/ae15o3/the_best_starcraft_players_of_all_time/ + Show Spoiler + tesagi doesn't necessarily exist, but Protoss is a struggle. | ||
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