EPTunderstood.
Does Tesagi Exist? - Page 6
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[AS]Rattus
428 Posts
understood. | ||
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Eywa-
Canada4876 Posts
On January 10 2019 00:43 Qikz wrote: The problem protoss has is not terran, it's zerg. It's fitting to say that when you look at proleague and even now you say that X protoss is a PvT master/specialist. There's only one person you can say that about in PvZ and that's Bisu. Every other protoss' vs Z is pretty terrible especially these days. The one that came closest to having great PvZ was certainly shuttle and even then it didn't even hold a candle to Bisu. Meanwhile, Bisu's PvT late game sucked majorly. In comparison to players like Stork, JangBi who had amazing PvT and terrible PvZ. All of Bisu, Stork, Reach and GARIMTO had 60+% PvZ during their prime (not over their careers), but none of these reached elite status even in their prime as they all either faltered in PvP or PvT. Other players faltered in PvZ. It's not clear statistically if PvZ is the core for Protoss failures. Even if the argument of Z >>> P is true, wouldn't that mean a huge advantage for Terran? Your argument does more to validate tesagi than to discredit it. If your toughest opposition is made weaker, then you are made relatively stronger by default. If you consider rock paper scissors, if scissors became no longer viable, or less viable... Then Paper would be broken, even if paper had no effect on scissors being weak. | ||
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esdf
Croatia736 Posts
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On January 10 2019 01:33 Eywa- wrote: All of Bisu, Stork, Reach and GARIMTO had 60+% PvZ during their prime (not over their careers), but none of these reached elite status even in their prime as they all either faltered in PvP or PvT. Other players faltered in PvZ. It's not clear statistically if PvZ is the core for Protoss failures. Even if the argument of Z >>> P is true, wouldn't that mean a huge advantage for Terran? Your argument does more to validate tesagi than to discredit it. If your toughest opposition is made weaker, then you are made relatively stronger by default. If you consider rock paper scissors, if scissors became no longer viable, or less viable... Then Paper would be broken, even if paper had no effect on scissors being weak. I think the problem is that rock paper scissors doesn't work. PvZ is strongly zerg favored at the top level, but if you look at the data that the OP presented, we see that even excluding from the data (which is BS in the first place) TvP was slighty T favored or even (50-52%) winrate in online games. So it is T->Z->P=T. And by that metric it's obvious that T overperforms while P underperforms and Z is just fine. The problem materializes also in the mappool. We all accept maps as the tool to ensure balance. Yet we see maps like CB as balanced, that rock TvZ 59% ZvP 60,2% PvT 45 % !! Winrate. In my mind thats the core of the problem. These big macro maps with little abusable features and simple layout emphasize terrans passive strength in the MU. Flash fans and Terrans were majorly offended by the imbalanced and protoss favored map pool in ASL 5. But perhaps thats exactlx the right thing to ensure a balanced comoetition and restore rock-paper-scissors? Albeit ASL 5 maps were a bit extreme perhaps, thats part of the core problem. Bland macro maps level PvT winrates to close to 50% if we talk rock-paper-scissors. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16063 Posts
On January 09 2019 00:33 kaspa84 wrote: What would happen if they did, but Bisu, Nal-ra, Reach, Stork and JangBi didnt? The better comparison would be what would happen if Flash, Boxer, iloveeoov and Nada didn't play Starcraft and neither did Stork, Bisu, Reach and Nal-ra. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
On January 09 2019 11:21 Letmelose wrote: The distribution of match-ups for online sponsored matches is almost entirely dependent on the market demand. The mirror match-up factor you've mentioned may have played a role in overall terran success on other platforms (such as the ProLeague where a disproportionately high number of mirror match-ups took place), but online sponsored matches are obviously not one of those examples. As of today, 48,000 online sponsored matches have been recorded since May 2017. If every player picked random, and the match-ups happened entirely by chance, the distribution should be roughly 22% for each of the non-mirror match-ups, and approximately 11% for the mirror match-ups. The actual distribution of the match-ups are as follows: TvZ: 14,791 matches (30.81% of the entire sample available for analysis) ZvP: 13,475 matches (28.07% of the entire sample available for analysis) PvT: 13,610 matches (28.35% of the entire sample available for analysis) TvT: 1,813 matches (3.78% of the entire sample available for analysis) ZvZ: 2,106 matches (4.38% of the entire sample available for analysis) PvP: 2,205 matches (4.59% of the entire sample available for analysis) As expected, terran-versus-zerg is the most in demand match-up, while terran-versus-terran match-up is the lowest in terms of viewer demand. The landscape of AfreecaTV has warped the distribution of the match-ups, and I think the overwhelming number of matches where the zerg player gets stomped (with Flash being one of the main culprits for the phenomenon) has shaped the current perception of the terran race to an unhealthy degree. With Flash's games in the picture, zerg-versus-terran has the lowest win rate out of any match-ups within the realm of online sponsored matches, and due to popular market demand, zerg players have no choice but to partake in the one sided massacre over and over again. So I personally would tackle the issue from the perspective that people enjoy the terran-versus-zerg match-up the most, which artificially raises the frequency of zergs being defeated on stream, which in turn shapes public perception of the terran race (especially since they don't suffer as much even without Flash against the protoss race in online sponsored matches thanks to Last), which makes people question Flash's overwhelming success within the ASL, which makes Flash supporters insecure and go too far in the other direction and state that every good terran result comes from Flash alone, which then makes people take away Flash's records in online sponsored matches to prove that terran players still enjoy the highest win rate even without Flash in the picture. This entire argument would be less heated if both sides were ready to make concessions and make less outlandish hyperboles based on statistics that favour their viewpoint. The only thing that needed to happen was to state that the overall viewing experince of online sponsored matches portrays a somewhat warped view of Brood War due to the popularity of the terran-versus-zerg match-up, although truth be told, the fact that terran players enjoy an above 50% win rate versus the protoss race in online sponsored matches even after taking away all games where Flash participated is a little bothersome. This topic has too much nuance to be confirmed or denied by a single article, and the debate could last a lifetime. There's always a way out even for the most retarded viewpoint, which makes the discussion extremely attractive to whoever wants to throw in their two cents. I've been guilty of it as well. Since the Flash TvZ sponmatches are a plague on the Zerg, you would think they could put their heads together like the Terrans did once upon a time. https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/217470-cartoon-terran-meeting-against-queen-play So much for the Hivemind T.T You would think a lot of people thinking about the same problem would eventually come up with something even Flash had trouble with. | ||
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kidcrash
United States623 Posts
On January 10 2019 00:43 Qikz wrote: The problem protoss has is not terran, it's zerg. It's fitting to say that when you look at proleague and even now you say that X protoss is a PvT master/specialist. There's only one person you can say that about in PvZ and that's Bisu. Every other protoss' vs Z is pretty terrible especially these days. The one that came closest to having great PvZ was certainly shuttle and even then it didn't even hold a candle to Bisu. Meanwhile, Bisu's PvT late game sucked majorly. In comparison to players like Stork, JangBi who had amazing PvT and terrible PvZ. Looking at this from a balance perspective, it would be hard to fix pvz without screwing with zvt. You'd end up fixing zvp and leave zerg with the only difficult match up (tvz) making zerg the weakest race. You'd be better off making tvp on par with pvz and zvt. Something that only effected tvp like mech upgrades taking 20% longer might be subtle enough. | ||
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errol1001
454 Posts
The real picture? Well, look at protoss winning almost nothing, even including when they are delivered a win on a platter. Mapmakers need to do a better job. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland600 Posts
On January 10 2019 04:18 errol1001 wrote: Mapmakers need to do a better job. Maybe Fastest, I've heard protoss do good there | ||
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kaspa84
Brazil169 Posts
On January 10 2019 02:24 Charoisaur wrote: The better comparison would be what would happen if Flash, Boxer, iloveeoov and Nada didn't play Starcraft and neither did Stork, Bisu, Reach and Nal-ra. I think you missed my point. I was arguing that excluding outliers from any single race will not produce good data, not what better way of excluding outliers to achieve such good data would be. (And you are of course right what the better comparison would be). | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
I think TvP is balanced. It is TvZ tesagi which is the problem. And this will hopefully be fixed over time with better maps in the future. Remember Hero’s 2.5 hatch build in ZvT? Maybe they need to make a map where Zerg’s third is slightly closer than it is on Fighting Spirit. PvZ is the only other matchup unfair. They call it Zesagi. There is no such thing as Pesagi because Protoss doesn’t have a strong matchup. Maybe to make PvZ fair they should have future maps where the natural and main are both on high ground? It would presumably help Protoss players survive Hydra breaks. It really is detrimintal to the game the amount of b.s. Hydra all-ins we see in ZvP. I don’t agree with the author and others mentioning Flash as the exception. He is the represenative of Terrans as a whole. That is why 2/3 of the top 100 global players play Terran. The 100 best players globally pick T the most because they watch flash and think they can emulate his success. If anything it is like an old Slayers’Boxer effect. Overall after reading the article I don’t believe as much in Tesagi. I think a balanced map pool with “good maps for ZvT” would make the matchup just fine. It is probably never the matchup that is imbalanced but more likely to be blamed is the map that is imbalanced. | ||
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MuNi
United States72 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
On January 10 2019 04:18 errol1001 wrote: I guess plenty of people have said this already, but looking at Terran's individual matchups is pointless. You have to look at the whole environment to get the real picture. The real picture? Well, look at protoss winning almost nothing, even including when they are delivered a win on a platter. Mapmakers need to do a better job. Mapmakers have provided good protoss maps, and they were tossed away for being imbalanced. Meanwhile FS and CB are still the mostly used maps despite their lack of balance (especially CB if we are looking at the Protoss problem) | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On January 10 2019 05:08 MuNi wrote: I never felt like there was any Inbalance in bw, but I always felt like protoss had the least potential. At the lower levels of the game protoss seems overpowered, but as skill levels go up it just seems like there isn't as much to do with protoss as there is with Terran and Zerg. As skill goes up a player gains access to certain parts of the game with Terran or Zerg that they couldn't access before. The same is true with protoss, but I just think there is less to access. I've always felt protoss had the least potential too since they have fewer units compared to zerg and don't have as many ranged units compared to terran. That said, I think there are good counterarguments in favour of protoss. I've never played team melee but I heard it being said that Protoss is seen as the strongest in team melee and even though PvZ is really bad for Protoss, there is no zerg who I would favour against Bisu (I'm aware effort has positive record on him but I am talking about Bisu from 2007-2012). | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
On January 10 2019 06:08 Anc13nt wrote: I'm aware effort has positive record on him . You probably mean in offline BoX series , since TLPD shows 4-4 record and Bisu always smashed Effort in sponmatches  | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia471 Posts
On January 10 2019 02:44 kidcrash wrote: Looking at this from a balance perspective, it would be hard to fix pvz without screwing with zvt. You'd end up fixing zvp and leave zerg with the only difficult match up (tvz) making zerg the weakest race. You'd be better off making tvp on par with pvz and zvt. Something that only effected tvp like mech upgrades taking 20% longer might be subtle enough. Make cannons warp-in faster? It changes almost nothing for TvP but would make the Hydra "all-ins" less viable. | ||
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
I call bias | ||
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RWLabs
Korea (South)273 Posts
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errol1001
454 Posts
On January 10 2019 05:51 ortseam wrote: Mapmakers have provided good protoss maps, and they were tossed away for being imbalanced. Meanwhile FS and CB are still the mostly used maps despite their lack of balance (especially CB if we are looking at the Protoss problem) I guess you are right, there is really a community perception problem here too. CB being used for 6-7 years ... | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9109 Posts
Just kidding. Nice write-up. | ||
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