On March 21 2017 18:36 iopq wrote: I think bug fixes like stuck units would be nice too. That's not a feature, it's clearly a bug. It's frustrating even to good players.
Maybe fix unit AI so they don't overshoot things, like scourge "Chinese triangle" as well. Sure, there's skill in it, but it makes ZvZ really stupid because there's no way to get back into it when you have a lower muta count. It also makes drops/vessels really strong in ZvT.
Or how about fixing "unit pops out of egg and disappears" bug that makes it harder to hold a ramp at your third in ZvT? Losing a lurker to it is really costly.
Pls. That is not a bug. The rest that you have said is also disgraceful.
stuck units is not a bug?
Sorry, should have been clearer; units not popping out of eggs that are receiving a greater dps than their health is not a bug.
I believe they pop out with 10 hp and then gain their full hp, so you can literally just hit them once and still kill them if you hit them at the exact moment they pop out.
This is wrong, they have full health and just die that fast. This is only a visual bug. There is no gameplay disadvantage.
Oh, wow. I stand corrected. A pity the images don't work anymore. Given this information, it really does make sense to start shooting at a blocking lurker egg as soon as possible to increase the chance to possibly kill it in this small time frame. But that is something, that should be fixed indeed.
On March 21 2017 18:36 iopq wrote: I think bug fixes like stuck units would be nice too. That's not a feature, it's clearly a bug. It's frustrating even to good players.
Maybe fix unit AI so they don't overshoot things, like scourge "Chinese triangle" as well. Sure, there's skill in it, but it makes ZvZ really stupid because there's no way to get back into it when you have a lower muta count. It also makes drops/vessels really strong in ZvT.
Or how about fixing "unit pops out of egg and disappears" bug that makes it harder to hold a ramp at your third in ZvT? Losing a lurker to it is really costly.
Pls. That is not a bug. The rest that you have said is also disgraceful.
stuck units is not a bug?
Sorry, should have been clearer; units not popping out of eggs that are receiving a greater dps than their health is not a bug.
I believe they pop out with 10 hp and then gain their full hp, so you can literally just hit them once and still kill them if you hit them at the exact moment they pop out.
This is wrong, they have full health and just die that fast. This is only a visual bug. There is no gameplay disadvantage.
Oh, wow. I stand corrected. A pity the images don't work anymore. Given this information, it really does make sense to start shooting at a blocking lurker egg as soon as possible to increase the chance to possibly kill it in this small time frame. But that is something, that should be fixed indeed.
I disagree, I think it makes perfect sense that an injured egg should birth an injured unit at least initially. I use this to my advantage whenever I have the option of doing so.
On March 21 2017 18:36 iopq wrote: I think bug fixes like stuck units would be nice too. That's not a feature, it's clearly a bug. It's frustrating even to good players.
Maybe fix unit AI so they don't overshoot things, like scourge "Chinese triangle" as well. Sure, there's skill in it, but it makes ZvZ really stupid because there's no way to get back into it when you have a lower muta count. It also makes drops/vessels really strong in ZvT.
Or how about fixing "unit pops out of egg and disappears" bug that makes it harder to hold a ramp at your third in ZvT? Losing a lurker to it is really costly.
Pls. That is not a bug. The rest that you have said is also disgraceful.
stuck units is not a bug?
Sorry, should have been clearer; units not popping out of eggs that are receiving a greater dps than their health is not a bug.
I believe they pop out with 10 hp and then gain their full hp, so you can literally just hit them once and still kill them if you hit them at the exact moment they pop out.
This is wrong, they have full health and just die that fast. This is only a visual bug. There is no gameplay disadvantage.
Oh, wow. I stand corrected. A pity the images don't work anymore. Given this information, it really does make sense to start shooting at a blocking lurker egg as soon as possible to increase the chance to possibly kill it in this small time frame. But that is something, that should be fixed indeed.
I disagree, I think it makes perfect sense that an injured egg should birth an injured unit at least initially. I use this to my advantage whenever I have the option of doing so.
It doesn't make sense, though. Either the unit should be permanently damaged or at full health. And having them spawn damaged would be a significant nerf which should be avoided. You can even make a logical argument for spawning at full health by saying the egg will completely protect the inside as long as it exists.
On March 21 2017 18:36 iopq wrote: I think bug fixes like stuck units would be nice too. That's not a feature, it's clearly a bug. It's frustrating even to good players.
Maybe fix unit AI so they don't overshoot things, like scourge "Chinese triangle" as well. Sure, there's skill in it, but it makes ZvZ really stupid because there's no way to get back into it when you have a lower muta count. It also makes drops/vessels really strong in ZvT.
Or how about fixing "unit pops out of egg and disappears" bug that makes it harder to hold a ramp at your third in ZvT? Losing a lurker to it is really costly.
Pls. That is not a bug. The rest that you have said is also disgraceful.
stuck units is not a bug?
Sorry, should have been clearer; units not popping out of eggs that are receiving a greater dps than their health is not a bug.
I believe they pop out with 10 hp and then gain their full hp, so you can literally just hit them once and still kill them if you hit them at the exact moment they pop out.
This is wrong, they have full health and just die that fast. This is only a visual bug. There is no gameplay disadvantage.
Oh, wow. I stand corrected. A pity the images don't work anymore. Given this information, it really does make sense to start shooting at a blocking lurker egg as soon as possible to increase the chance to possibly kill it in this small time frame. But that is something, that should be fixed indeed.
I disagree, I think it makes perfect sense that an injured egg should birth an injured unit at least initially. I use this to my advantage whenever I have the option of doing so.
It doesn't make sense, though. Either the unit should be permanently damaged or at full health. And having them spawn damaged would be a significant nerf which should be avoided. You can even make a logical argument for spawning at full health by saying the egg will completely protect the inside as long as it exists.
If we want to get full technical, an injured egg in nature is unlikely to hatch a healthy offspring or any offspring at all. I do agree that there is an issue of having a unit emerge injured and magically heal itself a second or two later. However, I'd rather leave it as is because this is one of those mechanics that actually has a direct impact on gameplay quite often. If a Terran is pushing up a ramp and is doing enough damage to the Lurker eggs there, I don't think it fair that Zerg should just get away with it as long as their SuperTanky+(TM) egg doesn't die. I think it adds an interesting element to the game.
This would most definitely constitute a "change to gameplay" that Blizzard promised that it would not do, by the way.
This can also be paralleled with the fact that a Terran scan reveals territory almost instantly, but does not reveal burrowed (perhaps all invisible?) units instantly. I found this out when I was playing Terran and had scanned a potential drop location, saw that it was clear, then as i drifted my vision away, only later had I noticed that a red dot popped up after I had already verified that the location was clear. It was a high-ground Lurker, and I have video evidence. If we want to talk about issues of this nature, I'm sure there are many more that fall under this penumbra. However, I feel that given how astounding the gameplay has been up until now, I don't think that risking any changes to direct gameplay are worth the potential gains when considering the potential losses. It is a Pandora's Box situation if I've ever seen one. Once you open the floodgates with "minor" changes like egg hatching health, scan revelation timing, aspect ratio and on-screen vision, etc. you begin to tread into waters which BW has not been in for well over a decade, namely the "whine until patch" area. If we compromise on small things such as this, who knows what may come next.
Just to add a note, I am well aware that any of the discussion happening here will not affect the potential game that is to be released potentially soon. However, given the path of SC2, I don't think any of us can feel safe with our heads in the sand about issues of this matter given Blizzard's track record in recent years.
also players with that knowledge and using a bit of judgement has the option to cancel a dying egg that is still being shot by 999 marines just before its about to morph and salvage some gas back. rather than watching the gas literally disappear.
high res do affect balance. for example. protoss goons will have a harder time directly a clicking on mines (which is an important skill toi have when dealing with vults) since every unit in the game is now smaller (comparatively screen wise) than usual.
On March 22 2017 11:37 Probemicro wrote: high res do affect balance. for example. protoss goons will have a harder time directly a clicking on mines (which is an important skill toi have when dealing with vults) since every unit in the game is now smaller (comparatively screen wise) than usual.
yep, high res will make a major impact. Everything from spotting drops, macroing and microing units.
On March 22 2017 12:47 NickHotS wrote: Hopefully they'll just have classic mode for tournaments that's compatible with the spectator client using HD mode.
Although it may prove divisive for the community, if this is implemented, then I'll be relatively happy. There will be a "real" BW mode and a "casual" mode. Of course it would still be preferable to only have the "real" mode but hey, apparently I am not in tune with the pulse of the RTS crowd nowadays.
On March 22 2017 12:47 NickHotS wrote: Hopefully they'll just have classic mode for tournaments that's compatible with the spectator client using HD mode.
Although it may prove divisive for the community, if this is implemented, then I'll be relatively happy. There will be a "real" BW mode and a "casual" mode. Of course it would still be preferable to only have the "real" mode but hey, apparently I am not in tune with the pulse of the RTS crowd nowadays.
I guess it would depend on how it worked. If most everybody ends up playing on the new mode, and I can't play BW the way I feel it's most enjoyable that would be disappointing. Now if all the dedicated BW players still end up playing together on a server where you can get games in "tournament"/"classic" mode...that wouldn't be too bad.
I guess another way to put it is that I wouldn't want to play serious BW with serious players on a different game than what we are playing today...but if there was a second mode for the more casual crowd I wouldn't mind playing games with my casual friends on that.
But if that was implemented then we can guess where the majority of players would play...and then we are kinda back into having BW and "BW-like SC2".
This issue in general is amusing. It's been discussed to shit, Blizz is definitely going to do whatever they want regardless of some comments here, and yet somehow it's still an engaging discussion to theorycraft/fearcraft the what-if scenarios.
On March 22 2017 12:47 NickHotS wrote: Hopefully they'll just have classic mode for tournaments that's compatible with the spectator client using HD mode.
Although it may prove divisive for the community, if this is implemented, then I'll be relatively happy. There will be a "real" BW mode and a "casual" mode. Of course it would still be preferable to only have the "real" mode but hey, apparently I am not in tune with the pulse of the RTS crowd nowadays.
I guess it would depend on how it worked. If most everybody ends up playing on the new mode, and I can't play BW the way I feel it's most enjoyable that would be disappointing. Now if all the dedicated BW players still end up playing together on a server where you can get games in "tournament"/"classic" mode...that wouldn't be too bad.
I guess another way to put it is that I wouldn't want to play serious BW with serious players on a different game than what we are playing today...but if there was a second mode for the more casual crowd I wouldn't mind playing games with my casual friends on that.
But if that was implemented then we can guess where the majority of players would play...and then we are kinda back into having BW and "BW-like SC2".
This issue in general is amusing. It's been discussed to shit, Blizz is definitely going to do whatever they want regardless of some comments here, and yet somehow it's still an engaging discussion to theorycraft/fearcraft the what-if scenarios.
The benefit I see to this duality of BW that we could potentially see in HD is that people might migrate from "casual" to "competitive" just as we all at some point migrated from campaign to online, fastest to low-money, BGH to low-money, teamgames to 1v1, so on and so forth. Casual play has historically been a strong backbone for the BW community until the 2010s at the latest. I'm okay with people having a casual play venue as long as the game we love, play, and watch doesn't get changed at all in terms of core mechanics. I completely agree with your point that I wouldn't want to stray from the existing BW mechanics, that much is self-evident. But if Blizzard decides to allow both, I wouldn't be mad. The line would be drawn, and then it is up to the user where they decide to make their home. Anyone crossing the line in the competitive direction will be making an investment, one that we have seen nurtured here on TL for many years now. We have seen the rise of many players in the time that you and I have been members here, and we will see more in coming years, regardless of how this turns out. We have also seen many disappear, reappear, or not. At worst, this may be another chance to reinvigorate those players to try the original BW if BW:HD is not what they/we are looking for.
On March 22 2017 11:37 Probemicro wrote: high res do affect balance. for example. protoss goons will have a harder time directly a clicking on mines (which is an important skill toi have when dealing with vults) since every unit in the game is now smaller (comparatively screen wise) than usual.
You realize no one actually clicks the mine people just hold position right?
On March 22 2017 11:37 Probemicro wrote: high res do affect balance. for example. protoss goons will have a harder time directly a clicking on mines (which is an important skill toi have when dealing with vults) since every unit in the game is now smaller (comparatively screen wise) than usual.
You realize no one actually clicks the mine people just hold position right?
I don't think you are talking about the same thing. The hold position micro to defuse Spider Mines is (generally) predicated on the absence of an Observer, and the mine already being implanted into the ground. I think Probemicro was referring more to the situation where Terran is pushing in the early-game before Observer is available and Protoss has to target mines as they are being laid, before they can submerge.
Reference VOD:
This second mine is most likely directly sniped before it plants. The rest of the VOD is worth watching as well. Maybe I am too much of a Bisu fan, but I refuse to believe that all of the mine snipes he has throughout the remainder of the game are accidental and not a result of micro decisions, namely sniping mines directly.
EDIT: In fact, around 11:30, you can clearly see Bisu targeting mines with his army manually even though he has an Observer out and present. Targeting mines is very much a thing. Although you can see both H-micro and sniping in this video, it is obvious that your stance of "no one actually clicks the mine" is completely and utterly baseless.
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On March 22 2017 11:37 Probemicro wrote: high res do affect balance. for example. protoss goons will have a harder time directly a clicking on mines (which is an important skill toi have when dealing with vults) since every unit in the game is now smaller (comparatively screen wise) than usual.
yep, high res will make a major impact. Everything from spotting drops, macroing and microing units.
Just because you expand the screen resolution does not mean you have to expand the field of view or make the units smaller. The entire purpose of doing high resolution graphics would mean you can scale them up rather than expand the field of view. The reason they expand the field of view in remasters such as Age of Empires II HD is because they aren't actually using higher resolution graphics.
Most likely you will see a little more horizontally with widescreen resolutions, but it's not like you will see the entire map and your units will be smaller. Your graphics are already being stretched when you play on fullscreen using modern LCD monitors. It'd be like if you stretched it the way it already is on a modern monitor and then painted over all the graphics in a higher resolution. They may even go as far as stretching the sprites for widescreen displays rather than expanding the field of view which also already happens if you go fullscreen on a widescreen monitor and aspect ratio isn't maintained.
Age of Empires II HD - Using the original sprites + Show Spoiler +
Heroes of Might & Magic III Rendering the same scene with higher resolution graphics that can be scaled (like how BW is stretched on modern LCD screens at fullscreen). + Show Spoiler +
On March 22 2017 11:37 Probemicro wrote: high res do affect balance. for example. protoss goons will have a harder time directly a clicking on mines (which is an important skill toi have when dealing with vults) since every unit in the game is now smaller (comparatively screen wise) than usual.
You realize no one actually clicks the mine people just hold position right?
They only hold position when there are no other enemies nearby. Mines have some of the lowest attack priority in the game. That's why Dragoons freeze up in their attack animation when your Tanks are shelling them and Vultures are baiting them. They prioritize units that are capable of attacking them. But Mines don't attack directly.
On March 22 2017 11:37 Probemicro wrote: high res do affect balance. for example. protoss goons will have a harder time directly a clicking on mines (which is an important skill toi have when dealing with vults) since every unit in the game is now smaller (comparatively screen wise) than usual.
yep, high res will make a major impact. Everything from spotting drops, macroing and microing units.
Just because you expand the screen resolution does not mean you have to expand the field of view or make the units smaller. The entire purpose of doing high resolution graphics would mean you can scale them up rather than expand the field of view. The reason they expand the field of view in remasters such as Age of Empires II HD is because they aren't actually using higher resolution graphics.
Most likely you will see a little more horizontally with widescreen resolutions, but it's not like you will see the entire map and your units will be smaller. Your graphics are already being stretched when you play on fullscreen using modern LCD monitors. It'd be like if you stretched it the way it already is on a modern monitor and then painted over all the graphics in a higher resolution. They may even go as far as stretching the sprites for widescreen displays rather than expanding the field of view which also already happens if you go fullscreen on a widescreen monitor and aspect ratio isn't maintained.
I don't think anyone here is arguing against a higher resolution that maintains scale and ratio. That would just be stupid.
What some people here are against is 16 : 9 and unscaled resolution changes.
For the record, in AoE2, you can change the "zoom" of the game. Not so in Brood War.
EPT
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