EPTOn January 02 2017 05:18 iFU.pauline wrote:
Flash 8-7
Bisu 9-7
Last 2-0
Effort too strong
Flash 8-7
Bisu 9-7
Last 2-0
Effort too strong
*proceeds to get knocked out of round of 24 ecks dee
[BW][Afreeca] Top 5 Players in the month of Dec. - Page 3
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FlaShFTW
United States10081 Posts
*proceeds to get knocked out of round of 24 ecks dee | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
On January 02 2017 05:44 usopsama wrote: Good thing Effort and Last are out of the tournament. Free trophy for God. I think Last has some stage nerves, he has been doing really meh in actual tournaments as compared to how good he is statistically. It does make sense since he has very little stage experience as compared to anyone else | ||
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HyralGambit
2439 Posts
On January 02 2017 06:22 thezanursic wrote: I think Last has some stage nerves, he has been doing really meh in actual tournaments as compared to how good he is statistically. It does make sense since he has very little stage experience as compared to anyone else The same could be said about Bisu in recent times. | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5587 Posts
On January 01 2017 14:08 classicyellow83 wrote: 12-22 vs. Last is not a bad news at all. Jaedong was 12-27 when he pre-afreeca. This is what Last said about Jaedong during stream with moo,clan. "I don't know what my win rate is against Jaedong. But, that is besides the point. I can feel him improve game to game." =) Happy new year to all of us!  | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Kingdom once said Canata was the ultimate boss within SK Telecom T1 inner rankings (having insane win streaks) when SK Telecom T1 was winning three consecutive ProLeague rounds, and had legendary players like iloveoov (who was considered either the very best, or one of the best players at the time), BoxeR, Kingdom, and GoRush (one of the best zergs during this period). By.Sun (Rain), during final moments of professional Brood War, was the best player in SK Telecom T1, having better practice results than either FanTaSy (probably the best player in terms of overall results in this era), and Bisu. Rumours say he had incredibly high win rates. BoGus was said to be even better than Last during STX inner rankings, who was better than veteran players such as Calm, and Kal. Based on various hearsay, interviews, ex-professionals talking about it on Afreeca, here are some of the best players during practice on all the teams to the best of my knowledge. KT Rolster: ? -> Hery (before they acquired Flash) -> Flash SK Telecom T1: ? -> Canata -> Bisu/FanTaSy -> By.Sun STX Soul: ?-> BoGus WeMade Fox: ? -> NaDa/Flash (2006) -> ? (no clear best just a bunch of players including RorO sharing the top spot I belive) MBC Game HERO: ? (Bisu wasn't that good during practice during his MBC Game HERO days) -> Sea/Light Hwaseung Oz: ? -> Jaedong Woongjin Stars: ? -> ZerO/SoulKey Hite Sparkyz: ? -> Leta/HoGiL -> hydra/EffOrt (after the merge with CJ Entus) + Show Spoiler + This is the most solid evidence I have found thus far, with actual results on display by records kept by ZeuS, the ex-coach of Hite Sparkyz. Samsung Khan: ? -> JangBi Estro: ? As you can see, players like Hery, By.Sun, BoGus, and HoGiL achieved next to nothing despite being from teams that had produced championship winning players during their time of excellence during practice (ChoJJa on KTF MagicNs, FanTaSy on SK Telecom T1, Calm on STX Soul, and Luxury on Hite Sparkyz). Being good at the game in a vacuum setting doesn't necessarily translate into good results on stage, and I believe it was something a lot of professional players struggled with, especially during the televised era of Brood War. | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 02 2017 09:43 classicyellow83 wrote: This reminds me of what Best said. "Everyone who was first in PGTour won a Starleague except for Canata." I think Canata may be the shining example of what Korean communities refer to as a "practice bonjwa", I don't think there has ever been a case of such a long lasting career of total mediocrity from a player that was supposed to be such a beast during practice, on a team like SK Telecom T1, no less. I don't even have much memory of the guy except how boring and slow paced his games seemed to be. Such a forgettable player, yet was praised by almost everyone who used to be on SK Telecom T1, the strongest team in the history of the entire scene. | ||
GTR
51375 Posts
Shorthand List: Protoss - fOru, Junitoss, Lucifer, Rain, sOo, Rock Terran - Hery, Dongrae, Canata, Hwasin Zerg - oDin Others from the top of my head: Protoss - TeratO Terran - PuMa Zerg - maGma | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
On January 02 2017 13:04 GTR wrote: Practice Bonjwa's according to the Korean Community: https://namu.wiki/w/연습실 본좌 Shorthand List: Protoss - fOru, Junitoss, Lucifer, Rain, sOo, Rock Terran - Hery, Dongrae, Canata, Hwasin Zerg - oDin Others from the top of my head: Protoss - TeratO Terran - PuMa Zerg - maGma ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sjrB6jg.png) This makes me pretty sad for some reason... On January 02 2017 09:32 Letmelose wrote: As you can see, players like Hery, By.Sun, BoGus, and HoGiL achieved next to nothing despite being from teams that had produced championship winning players during their time of excellence during practice (ChoJJa on KTF MagicNs, FanTaSy on SK Telecom T1, Calm on STX Soul, and Luxury on Hite Sparkyz). Being good at the game in a vacuum setting doesn't necessarily translate into good results on stage, and I believe it was something a lot of professional players struggled with, especially during the televised era of Brood War. At the very least By.Sun and BoGus had a good run in 2012 Proleague and achieved something in SC2, and hopefully by.Sun or rather Rain can still achieve something in Brood War. As for HoGil at the very least he has a liquipedia page and at the very least, I've heard of him, unlike Hery | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Players like LuCifer who did well during practice in low level teams like WeMade Fox can't really be considered as "practice bonjwas" in my opinion. There are like half a dozen players who did well during practice in WeMade Fox in-house team ranking tournaments, and none of them ever achieved anything of note except for Mind. The same goes for PuMa, who may have been good at Estro (one of the bottom feeder professional teams), but from the Excel files of Hite Sparkyz/CJ Entus in-house ranking tournament results that can be seen on the VOD I've linked, he wasn't anything special. Plus that article was composed mainly of players who were successful in the lower-leagues like the offline qualification rounds for the individual leagues/Survivor Tournaments/Dual Tournaments, rather than players with anecdotes of them being the best in their team during practice. They may been, I don't know, but I haven't heard any stories, or quotes from ex-professionals that was the case. Hwasin was probably the best player in his team during practice for certain periods of his career, but he also happened to be best player in his team period, without needing to delve into practice results. I remember Canata the most, because if BoxeR was so adamant that the best terran player on the team wasn't iloveoov, but some rookie terran, there must be something to the player. Anyone who was into PGTour performances at the time probably noticed the great records Canata at the time as well. He ended up achieving next to nothing during his entire career that lasted from 2004 to 2012. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 02 2017 13:19 thezanursic wrote: This makes me pretty sad for some reason... At the very least By.Sun and BoGus had a good run in 2012 Proleague and achieved something in SC2, and hopefully by.Sun or rather Rain can still achieve something in Brood War. As for HoGil at the very least he has a liquipedia page and at the very least, I've heard of him, unlike Hery Hery and Canata were responsible for imprinting the image that results during practice didn't matter at all in the minds of many Korean fans. KTF MagicNs, and SK Telecom T1 had by far the most number of fans, and had a plethora legendary players such as YellOw, ChoJJa, Reach, BoxeR, iloveoov, and Kingdom. Imagine the shock whenever the topic of who was doing the best during practice between these absolute legends was brought up (basically the Taek-Beng-Lee-Ssang of this era in terms of iconic status), it was answered with some obscure rookie terrans called Hery and Canata that was supposedly rocking it during in-house ranking tournaments. Neither players achieved anything of note, and faded away to obscurity. Hery was constantly mocked for his hype, and whenever he failed in the ProLeague despite taking the opportunity away from more famous terrans like TheMarine, and Sync, Korean fans would jockingly say he must be the son of the head coach of KTF MagicNs. He eventually retired, and returned to KT Rolster as a coach, and helped Flash in his path to become the greatest terran player of the modern era. Although his relationship with Flash isn't as publicised as the mentor-protege relationship iloveoov was supposed to have with FanTaSy, he played a major role in some of the strategies (such as the cheese rush against double nexus), and adjustments in approaching the enemy player (for example Flash's famous mass tank strategy versus Calm after the series was tied at 1-1). His ability to help players outside of Flash, has been brought into question, judging by how ForGG failed grow as a player in KT Rolster, and being forced to learn the traits of Flash despite being vastly different in terms of style. I think ForGG once said in a stream that Hery mocked him for not being able to do the things Flash was able to do. HoGil was youngest semi-professional in the scene when he won the 22nd Courage Tournament, and was the choice of GoRush as his pick for his favourite zerg of 2007 (he said he didn't approach Jaedong took, mentioning that zerg could be divided into the style July played, and the style GoRush himself played), for being the closest to methodical approach GoRush thought was suited for the zerg race. I personally thought he was a just a sound zerg that didn't have any bite about him, and remembered him mostly for losing competently to various opponents over his career. | ||
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alypse
Vietnam2762 Posts
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On January 02 2017 09:32 Letmelose wrote: Estro: ? All this talk of practice bonjwas and no one mentions  Really. Most people ignored him until Artosis made a video about him saying he was the second best Terran after Flash, that he was probably better than Fantasy and definitely better than Leta. Nothing came out of it, he had a few interesting games where he used medics to blind observers, but no real results to speak of. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 03 2017 14:27 jalstar wrote: All this talk of practice bonjwas and no one mentions Really. Most people ignored him until Artosis made a video about him saying he was the second best Terran after Flash, that he was probably better than Fantasy and definitely better than Leta. Nothing came out of it, he had a few interesting games where he used medics to blind observers, but no real results to speak of.I loved the content Artosis created back when he was aspired to be a professional Brood War player. However, in this particular instance, unless you remove the entire match-up of terran versus zerg out of the equation, Artosis was being retarded in that video. He obviously did not take into account the fact that Really was an incredibly incomplete player who had some of the best mechanic play around, but had bionic play that would tempt you to gouge your own eyes out. If Really was truly a practice bonjwa we would be hearing about how he was raping players who were considered top tier at the time like ZerO and SoulKey during practice after he transfered to a decent team in Woongjin Stars. Instead he managed to set the all time record for the most consecutive defeats against zergs in KeSPA officiated matches. I don't care how godly you are in your other two match-ups, if you are this bad in a match-up that is statistically in favour of terran players, you don't get to be rated above players who at least had some level of competency in all three match-ups. | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On January 01 2017 21:17 ReachTheSky wrote: Interesting statistics here. I think were gonna see an even more godlike flash in 2017.... I think you might be right. He's 17-2 in past 3 days. The 2 loss is from shuttle in bo5 which flash won. 89.5% win rate. 15 win streak in past 3 days. GG. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 04 2017 12:37 Shinokuki wrote: flash also practice bonjwa while we're at it Flash was a superlative talent (not to the level of NaDa), coupled with immense discipline (although not to the level of Jaedong) and drive to improve before he even made his debut. After heavy disagreements with his parents, he begged his parents to let him game freely for a couple of months, and got to a high level extremely quickly, playing literally thousands of games non-stop on the Fish Server Ladder. Although he wasn't that successful at winning the Courage Tournament right away (it took him nine attempts, and in some of them was severely outclassed by more skilled amateurs such as JangBi). This was when he had a short stint as an online practice partner for KOR (precursor of OGN Sparkyz), sometime during 2006, he got into the B team of Pantech EX (precursor of WeMade Fox) as a practice partner, and shared the top spot in the in-house rankings along with NaDa for months on end, who was reaching back-to-back OGN StarLeagues at the time. However, Flash wasn't the best during practice in the grand scale of things. When MBC Game HERO practiced against Pantech EX, Flash said he lost all of his six games versus Bisu comprehensively, and was shocked by the non-stop unit production of Bisu after checking the replays. I'm not sure about the rumours about Bisu's exact level during practice except for PvZ. A lot of the MBC Game HERO members that stream on Afreeca seem to think Bisu wasn't all that special during his stay on MBC Game HERO during practice, and mentioned he got infinitely better after his move to SK Telecom T1. Flash quickly overtook Hery as the best KTF MagicNs player during practice, but I think the team at the time was full of players on the decline such as Reach, and ChoJJa. He was said to be near invincible during practice strictly within the confines of KT Rolster, but after hearing about his practice sessions with other teams such as Woongjin Stars, maybe his TvZ wasn't as great as it became later on during his career (I think both Stork and Bisu mentioned that they were struggling against Flash during practice for a while, before Flash's immense success in 2010). I think there was a reason why he was losing standard TvZ games to Jaedong even on imbalanced maps like Rush Hour 3. I believe it is only after Flash's willingness to adopt FanTaSy's late-mech meta-game revolution (first showcased in 2009), after being thrashed by ZerO and SoulKey during practice that his TvZ skills became good enough to overcome Jaedong. I think Flash before 2010 was only a practice bonjwa strictly within the confines of his team, considering how there are stories of Bisu thrashing him when he was the best at Pantech EX, and how he lost all eight games to ZerO and SoulKey when they first started to practice against one another extensively to prepare Flash for Jaedong. Perhaps without the help of FanTaSy's meta-game revolution, and the high quality practice sessions provided by ZerO, and SoulKey, Flash would have never overcame his relative lack of skill in the TvZ match-up compared to Jaedong by playing only mediocre zergs like HoeJJa. Which makes me think. Jaedong was on Hwaseung Oz, then moved to the joke team of Team 8 that had zero infrastructure towards the end of his career. From what I've heard, he never had a single moment in his career (apart from his earliest days) where he wasn't the number one player in the in-house rankings. Sky (ex-professional for Hwaseung Oz) once said that he thought Central Plains (one of the most broken protoss maps of the modern era) was a zerg map because Jaedong wouldn't lose a single game to a protoss player, then when they had the opportunity to practice against Samsung Khan, Jaedong proceeded to get butt-raped hardcore by JangBi on Central Plains. That's when he realized that the map was good for protoss. I wonder how Jaedong's unmatched discipline and work ethic would have gotten him if he had the best quality of practice versus the best players. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 04 2017 14:57 BigFan wrote: Thanks for the info dump about flash. I've always thought Flash had strong TvZ and built onto it. Never realized it was that weak (or weak enough at least). In his amateur days he was known as the Bionic Genius, and was hyped for his excellent TvZ. He also formed a rivalry against Jaedong, the greatest zerg player of his era (and in history), by knocking each other out in various tournaments very early on into their careers. However, Flash's wins would mostly be reliant on unorthodox plays and brilliance of thought, while Jaedong's victories seemed to result from pure micro-management and late-game multi-tasking outperformances, and that was the general consensus about their relationship by the fans, and even professional players like YellOw. Flash was still one of the few terrans who could threaten Jaedong with his great standard bionic play, but I was personally of the opinion that other top class terrans, especially Light, was comparable just in terms of sheer execution. Considering how Jaedong would often come out slightly ahead in a battle of pure brawns versus the Light, I think it wasn't surprising how he would crush Flash on imbalanced maps like Othello, and Rush Hour 3. Of course, their overall head-to-head record was pretty even, but even Flash admitted on stream that Jaedong was better from a pure gaming point of view during this period of time (excluding stuff like pre-game preparation). Imagine how furious I was when Flash took a big dump all over Jaedong on various finals in 2010. I was so salty at the time. Blaming the maps like they were a crime against humanity. In retrospect, they weren't that bad, especially if you consider some of the map pools Jaedong had to overcome during his career. What was I expecting? TvZ to be a 50:50 affair? I thought at the time it must have been a combination of horrid bad map imbalance and Flash's fine form. After hearing Flash and ZerO talk about their past experiences on stream, and how the late-mech meta-game revolution first shown by FanTaSy versus ZerO in 2009 changed the landscape of the entire scene (Sea said on stream that he used to lose over 80% of the times versus Jaedong during practice, but but maintained a 50% win rate after the introduction of late-mech), I'm starting to think otherwise. I think perhaps it wasn't just Jaedong Flash struggled mightily to win against with bionic play post-2009. Considering how Luxury was widely considered the second zerg from late 2007 to 2008, and Flash maintained a 90% win rate versus his zerg teammates even after Luxury's transfer to KTF MagicNs in mid-2008 (shortly before his WCG 2008 victory, and his first MSL triumph in early 2009), I think it's fair to say Flash's TvZ was near unstoppable except against Jaedong during practice from 2007~2008. After 2009, with the appearance of zergs like Calm, ZerO, and EffOrt, I'm not so sure. Maybe Flash was way better, maybe not. But considering how both Calm and EffOrt had excellent results in televised ZvT matches, I'm not that confident that he would have been able to sustain his 90% TvZ practice win rate he had within KT Rolster. I think the initial beat-down he took from the Woongjin Stars zergs was the wake-up call for Flash that he needed to change, because if he was going 0-8 versus them during practice, how could he defeat Jaedong in the upcoming individual leagues? Once he incorporated late-mech into his play, he started to thrash ZerO, and only SoulKey could keep up, and Jaedong, after being in an even worse practice environment at Team 8 (no coaches, no practice partners, just a rag tag group of rejected A teamers), was no longer the god he was during practice. From the nuance from the stories Flash told on stream, it seems like SoulKey was already better than Jaedong in ZvT (late game especially) during practice during the final year or so of Brood War. SoulKey barely keeping up with Flash during practice is no slight to Flash's practice prowess in my opinion, considering he was probably the best ZvT player during practice during that era. In summary, from the rumours and my personal perspective on the matter, I think it goes something like this. Please keep in mind that this is all from unconfirmed hearsay, and my biased views on the whole affair. 2007~2008: Flash is unstoppable versus zergs during practice, but is a level below Jaedong, who was at his peak just in terms of being everybody else in terms of sheer skill. 2009: With the zerg-friendly map pool, and emergence of other noticeable zergs such as Calm, EffOrt and ZerO, it seems Flash is mortal versus zergs. Even on stage, he loses random series to mediocre players like Kwanro. It's not so surprising that he loses 0-8 to Woongjin Stars zergs when he first practices against them. Even during this era, he has 90% win rate versus his zerg teammates (but this is more indicative of how bad they are, rather than how good Flash was at TvZ at the time). 2010~2011: Flash is god. Both on stage, and during practice. SoulKey is said to be the zerg giving him the most trouble during practice. Jaedong is reaching all these finals, but gets his ass kicked by Flash over and over again. 2011~2012: Not sure about this period. With the lawsuits from Blizzard, the threat of Starcraft 2, and really heavy down-sizing of the number and scale of various Brood War tournaments, I'm not sure how objectively I can assess this period. Who knows who was practicing which game for how much? Totally ruins the era for me. Thank you Blizzard, for not only killing professional Brood War, but doing your best to ruin the final year and a half of it to boost your new gaming title. | ||
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Lunaticman
Sweden1097 Posts
Just to keep the speculation going, what would have been the zerg answer for the heavy mech switch favored by terran? maybe going back to "cheesy" five pools and all in ling plays to force them back to bio play? EDIT: Maybe going back to something like 3 hatch-muta play? That would force goliaths and keep the army back and prevent expansion play. Which would make it possible to play "refuge" zerg with 3 starting positions? | ||
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