What impresses me the most about Last is that he's only behind by .6% and he played over 200 games more than Flash did. He's a machine. Good jog Alphago.
Whats impresses me the most about Flash is that his average win rate for first 3-4 months was in the mid-high fifties and he brought it up to sub 70.
Who had better year? I think it's up for interpretation.
I wonder if jaedong playing against flash would actually motivate him more and speed his growth (seeing as jaedong is very competitive, he really hates losing), or if it would just discourage/frustrate him (assuming flash wins the majority of games).
On January 01 2017 13:10 JungleTerrain wrote: I wonder if jaedong playing against flash would actually motivate him more and speed his growth (seeing as jaedong is very competitive, he really hates losing), or if it would just discourage/frustrate him (assuming flash wins the majority of games).
On January 01 2017 12:41 classicyellow83 wrote: Jaedong played 247 sponsored games! My only disappointment is that Jaedong chose not to play Flash.
Jaedong:"I'll play Flash when I dominate all other terrans"
It's understandable imo. Flash is still on another level to Jaedong atm. It's essentially an exercise in futility. If they do meet in the semifinals, it's going to be 3-0 for Flash most likely.
On January 01 2017 12:41 classicyellow83 wrote: Jaedong played 247 sponsored games! My only disappointment is that Jaedong chose not to play Flash.
Jaedong:"I'll play Flash when I dominate all other terrans"
It's understandable imo. Flash is still on another level to Jaedong atm. It's essentially an exercise in futility. If they do meet in the semifinals, it's going to be 3-0 for Flash most likely.
12-22 vs. Last is not a bad news at all. Jaedong was 12-27 when he pre-afreeca. This is what Last said about Jaedong during stream with moo,clan. "I don't know what my win rate is against Jaedong. But, that is besides the point. I can feel him improve game to game." =)
Interesting to see Last is not that far off in terms of win rates in comparison with Flash, really stellar TvT and TvP. Shame the rest are trailing quite far behind, though.
On January 01 2017 12:41 classicyellow83 wrote: Jaedong played 247 sponsored games! My only disappointment is that Jaedong chose not to play Flash.
Jaedong:"I'll play Flash when I dominate all other terrans"
It's understandable imo. Flash is still on another level to Jaedong atm. It's essentially an exercise in futility. If they do meet in the semifinals, it's going to be 3-0 for Flash most likely.
They played a bit when JD was playing under 424 and Flash was winning like 90% of the games
On January 01 2017 16:06 ]343[ wrote: holy moly jd is mass gaming like a madman
flash 132 games, last 161 games, effort 147 games, larva 131 games, bisu 96 games, jd 247 games
I think Hero played close to 300 one month. Plus these games don't include ladder games. Last played close to 100 ladder games on his new Fish ID alone.
Just curious, I've always wondered how you get your data for everything? Are you just that awesome? ^_^ Or.. is there something on afreeca that has stats?
On January 01 2017 18:58 Th1rdEye wrote: Just curious, I've always wondered how you get your data for everything? Are you just that awesome? ^_^ Or.. is there something on afreeca that has stats?
people post daily wins and losses on YGOSU. Rush posts his record himself bc no fan will do it for him =(. I just search ygosu everyday for interesting stuff.
On January 01 2017 12:41 classicyellow83 wrote: Jaedong played 247 sponsored games! My only disappointment is that Jaedong chose not to play Flash.
Jaedong:"I'll play Flash when I dominate all other terrans"
I love his mentality. FvJ is supposed to be special like that. I'd want to see them at their full strength too, before they go at it.
Flash seems to agree with him. "I want to play him so badly. But, it's understandable. People have high expectations when it comes to LeeSsangRok."
So good to see the apparent camaraderie between them is still there after all these years since their dual interview that TL had translated back then.
Thanks for the additional insights btw. I've only been observing quietly, but you and Letmelose have been tearing it up on the forums lately with all these extra tidbits.
I started looking more closely at BW when day[9] did the pre-beta dailies for SC2. I started paying attention only at the end of a great FvJ period. I have never been and I don't think I'll ever be an expert [even watcher] of the damn game but I'll tell you one thing.
yeah i respect the both of them for putting off the FvJ until the time is right, unless of course the god of rng dictates they play each other in tournaments. no point padding the stats with games that are not 100%.
Somebody also posted sometimes how many baloons the top streamers got per month, is that still updated (i guess it came from korean forums) or did people stop analyzing that? Seems interesting to me as well, thanks for the winrates though!
On January 01 2017 17:47 FlaShFTW wrote: Lets go flash. He needs to get back on his tvz though whats up with that?
Yeah it was 70-80% a few months ago not sure why it dropped off. Maybe the Zergs are getting better or he's focusing more on TvP instead. Anyway it's still a very good winrate
On January 01 2017 22:29 sixfour wrote: I know it's often not the most exciting matchup, but that they're all pretty much avoiding mirrors is kind of interesting
They are not avoiding mirrors. People just don't like to sponsor mirror matches.
On January 01 2017 23:21 The_Red_Viper wrote: Somebody also posted sometimes how many baloons the top streamers got per month, is that still updated (i guess it came from korean forums) or did people stop analyzing that? Seems interesting to me as well, thanks for the winrates though!
That was me also. Most of the players are in decline due to there being so many BW BJs now. But, Flash still in incline. Sea got buff from Terror and he's getting a lot. He received more than Flash this month but not as much as Flash's peak. Bisu declined a lot(He's hasn't been streaming consistently. Shuttle is still one of the top paid BW BJs. Many people who joined moo. claim that their increased a lot after joining moo.clan (Britney buff). Terror, Britney, Flash, Bisu, Shuttle, and Sea has been and will be making more money than everyone else. Hero is just slightly below them. I predict Jaedong will join with the top receivers soon.
On January 02 2017 03:44 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Jaedong should play FlaSh and do it oftenly. IMO he will fair better vs him than vs Last.
What is your reasoning behind this?
I think there is a clear reason why Jaedong doesn't play Flash in sponsored matches, he doesn't want to tarnish the sanctity of FvJ, but in terms of his improvement, it might be smart to do it. If I were JD I'd ask him to crank out a few practice sessions of stream if he was willing.
I think they should play each other. Last is doing pretty good in tvz and if Jaedong wants to completely dominate in an unfavoured matchup all terrans with Last included who is with with 70% win rate vs z and doing really well vs players of the like of jaedong, effort, zero, hero, then completely not playing FlaSh is actual possibility that seems kind of pointless to do. I think they should play and do it often.
You've contributed a great deal to the BW forums recently and it's appreciated
Larvas stats are as often impressive but his offline results still leave so much to be desired, he needs to be in that atmosphere more often so he can get over his nerves imho
On January 02 2017 05:06 DarkNetHunter wrote: Thanks for gathering the data classicyellow!
You've contributed a great deal to the BW forums recently and it's appreciated
Larvas stats are as often impressive but his offline results still leave so much to be desired, he needs to be in that atmosphere more often so he can get over his nerves imho
NP! He gets ways too nervous during offline matches. Online, He better than most.
On January 02 2017 05:44 usopsama wrote: Good thing Effort and Last are out of the tournament. Free trophy for God.
I think Last has some stage nerves, he has been doing really meh in actual tournaments as compared to how good he is statistically. It does make sense since he has very little stage experience as compared to anyone else
On January 02 2017 05:44 usopsama wrote: Good thing Effort and Last are out of the tournament. Free trophy for God.
I think Last has some stage nerves, he has been doing really meh in actual tournaments as compared to how good he is statistically. It does make sense since he has very little stage experience as compared to anyone else
The same could be said about Bisu in recent times.
On January 01 2017 14:08 classicyellow83 wrote: 12-22 vs. Last is not a bad news at all. Jaedong was 12-27 when he pre-afreeca. This is what Last said about Jaedong during stream with moo,clan. "I don't know what my win rate is against Jaedong. But, that is besides the point. I can feel him improve game to game." =)
There are numerous tales of players being one of the elite players during practice, only to achieve next to nothing in their careers due to various factors.
Kingdom once said Canata was the ultimate boss within SK Telecom T1 inner rankings (having insane win streaks) when SK Telecom T1 was winning three consecutive ProLeague rounds, and had legendary players like iloveoov (who was considered either the very best, or one of the best players at the time), BoxeR, Kingdom, and GoRush (one of the best zergs during this period).
By.Sun (Rain), during final moments of professional Brood War, was the best player in SK Telecom T1, having better practice results than either FanTaSy (probably the best player in terms of overall results in this era), and Bisu. Rumours say he had incredibly high win rates.
BoGus was said to be even better than Last during STX inner rankings, who was better than veteran players such as Calm, and Kal.
Based on various hearsay, interviews, ex-professionals talking about it on Afreeca, here are some of the best players during practice on all the teams to the best of my knowledge.
KT Rolster: ? -> Hery (before they acquired Flash) -> Flash SK Telecom T1: ? -> Canata -> Bisu/FanTaSy -> By.Sun STX Soul: ?-> BoGus WeMade Fox: ? -> NaDa/Flash (2006) -> ? (no clear best just a bunch of players including RorO sharing the top spot I belive) MBC Game HERO: ? (Bisu wasn't that good during practice during his MBC Game HERO days) -> Sea/Light Hwaseung Oz: ? -> Jaedong Woongjin Stars: ? -> ZerO/SoulKey Hite Sparkyz: ? -> Leta/HoGiL -> hydra/EffOrt (after the merge with CJ Entus)
This is the most solid evidence I have found thus far, with actual results on display by records kept by ZeuS, the ex-coach of Hite Sparkyz.
Samsung Khan: ? -> JangBi Estro: ?
As you can see, players like Hery, By.Sun, BoGus, and HoGiL achieved next to nothing despite being from teams that had produced championship winning players during their time of excellence during practice (ChoJJa on KTF MagicNs, FanTaSy on SK Telecom T1, Calm on STX Soul, and Luxury on Hite Sparkyz). Being good at the game in a vacuum setting doesn't necessarily translate into good results on stage, and I believe it was something a lot of professional players struggled with, especially during the televised era of Brood War.
On January 02 2017 09:43 classicyellow83 wrote: This reminds me of what Best said. "Everyone who was first in PGTour won a Starleague except for Canata."
I think Canata may be the shining example of what Korean communities refer to as a "practice bonjwa", I don't think there has ever been a case of such a long lasting career of total mediocrity from a player that was supposed to be such a beast during practice, on a team like SK Telecom T1, no less. I don't even have much memory of the guy except how boring and slow paced his games seemed to be. Such a forgettable player, yet was praised by almost everyone who used to be on SK Telecom T1, the strongest team in the history of the entire scene.
Others from the top of my head: Protoss - TeratO Terran - PuMa Zerg - maGma
This makes me pretty sad for some reason...
On January 02 2017 09:32 Letmelose wrote: As you can see, players like Hery, By.Sun, BoGus, and HoGiL achieved next to nothing despite being from teams that had produced championship winning players during their time of excellence during practice (ChoJJa on KTF MagicNs, FanTaSy on SK Telecom T1, Calm on STX Soul, and Luxury on Hite Sparkyz). Being good at the game in a vacuum setting doesn't necessarily translate into good results on stage, and I believe it was something a lot of professional players struggled with, especially during the televised era of Brood War.
At the very least By.Sun and BoGus had a good run in 2012 Proleague and achieved something in SC2, and hopefully by.Sun or rather Rain can still achieve something in Brood War.
As for HoGil at the very least he has a liquipedia page and at the very least, I've heard of him, unlike Hery
It becomes increasingly harder to verifiy the older generation of "practice bonjwas" because the interviews, articles, and PGTour/ICCUP/Fish server rankings from the older era are way harder to find. On top of that, most of the streamers on Afreeca, who would talk about results during practice aren't aware of what happened before they came round.
Players like LuCifer who did well during practice in low level teams like WeMade Fox can't really be considered as "practice bonjwas" in my opinion. There are like half a dozen players who did well during practice in WeMade Fox in-house team ranking tournaments, and none of them ever achieved anything of note except for Mind. The same goes for PuMa, who may have been good at Estro (one of the bottom feeder professional teams), but from the Excel files of Hite Sparkyz/CJ Entus in-house ranking tournament results that can be seen on the VOD I've linked, he wasn't anything special.
Plus that article was composed mainly of players who were successful in the lower-leagues like the offline qualification rounds for the individual leagues/Survivor Tournaments/Dual Tournaments, rather than players with anecdotes of them being the best in their team during practice. They may been, I don't know, but I haven't heard any stories, or quotes from ex-professionals that was the case. Hwasin was probably the best player in his team during practice for certain periods of his career, but he also happened to be best player in his team period, without needing to delve into practice results.
I remember Canata the most, because if BoxeR was so adamant that the best terran player on the team wasn't iloveoov, but some rookie terran, there must be something to the player. Anyone who was into PGTour performances at the time probably noticed the great records Canata at the time as well. He ended up achieving next to nothing during his entire career that lasted from 2004 to 2012.
On January 02 2017 09:32 Letmelose wrote: As you can see, players like Hery, By.Sun, BoGus, and HoGiL achieved next to nothing despite being from teams that had produced championship winning players during their time of excellence during practice (ChoJJa on KTF MagicNs, FanTaSy on SK Telecom T1, Calm on STX Soul, and Luxury on Hite Sparkyz). Being good at the game in a vacuum setting doesn't necessarily translate into good results on stage, and I believe it was something a lot of professional players struggled with, especially during the televised era of Brood War.
At the very least By.Sun and BoGus had a good run in 2012 Proleague and achieved something in SC2, and hopefully by.Sun or rather Rain can still achieve something in Brood War.
As for HoGil at the very least he has a liquipedia page and at the very least, I've heard of him, unlike Hery
Hery and Canata were responsible for imprinting the image that results during practice didn't matter at all in the minds of many Korean fans. KTF MagicNs, and SK Telecom T1 had by far the most number of fans, and had a plethora legendary players such as YellOw, ChoJJa, Reach, BoxeR, iloveoov, and Kingdom. Imagine the shock whenever the topic of who was doing the best during practice between these absolute legends was brought up (basically the Taek-Beng-Lee-Ssang of this era in terms of iconic status), it was answered with some obscure rookie terrans called Hery and Canata that was supposedly rocking it during in-house ranking tournaments. Neither players achieved anything of note, and faded away to obscurity. Hery was constantly mocked for his hype, and whenever he failed in the ProLeague despite taking the opportunity away from more famous terrans like TheMarine, and Sync, Korean fans would jockingly say he must be the son of the head coach of KTF MagicNs.
He eventually retired, and returned to KT Rolster as a coach, and helped Flash in his path to become the greatest terran player of the modern era. Although his relationship with Flash isn't as publicised as the mentor-protege relationship iloveoov was supposed to have with FanTaSy, he played a major role in some of the strategies (such as the cheese rush against double nexus), and adjustments in approaching the enemy player (for example Flash's famous mass tank strategy versus Calm after the series was tied at 1-1). His ability to help players outside of Flash, has been brought into question, judging by how ForGG failed grow as a player in KT Rolster, and being forced to learn the traits of Flash despite being vastly different in terms of style. I think ForGG once said in a stream that Hery mocked him for not being able to do the things Flash was able to do.
HoGil was youngest semi-professional in the scene when he won the 22nd Courage Tournament, and was the choice of GoRush as his pick for his favourite zerg of 2007 (he said he didn't approach Jaedong took, mentioning that zerg could be divided into the style July played, and the style GoRush himself played), for being the closest to methodical approach GoRush thought was suited for the zerg race. I personally thought he was a just a sound zerg that didn't have any bite about him, and remembered him mostly for losing competently to various opponents over his career.
All this talk of practice bonjwas and no one mentions Really. Most people ignored him until Artosis made a video about him saying he was the second best Terran after Flash, that he was probably better than Fantasy and definitely better than Leta. Nothing came out of it, he had a few interesting games where he used medics to blind observers, but no real results to speak of.
All this talk of practice bonjwas and no one mentions Really. Most people ignored him until Artosis made a video about him saying he was the second best Terran after Flash, that he was probably better than Fantasy and definitely better than Leta. Nothing came out of it, he had a few interesting games where he used medics to blind observers, but no real results to speak of.
I loved the content Artosis created back when he was aspired to be a professional Brood War player. However, in this particular instance, unless you remove the entire match-up of terran versus zerg out of the equation, Artosis was being retarded in that video. He obviously did not take into account the fact that Really was an incredibly incomplete player who had some of the best mechanic play around, but had bionic play that would tempt you to gouge your own eyes out.
If Really was truly a practice bonjwa we would be hearing about how he was raping players who were considered top tier at the time like ZerO and SoulKey during practice after he transfered to a decent team in Woongjin Stars. Instead he managed to set the all time record for the most consecutive defeats against zergs in KeSPA officiated matches. I don't care how godly you are in your other two match-ups, if you are this bad in a match-up that is statistically in favour of terran players, you don't get to be rated above players who at least had some level of competency in all three match-ups.
On January 01 2017 21:17 ReachTheSky wrote: Interesting statistics here. I think were gonna see an even more godlike flash in 2017....
I think you might be right. He's 17-2 in past 3 days. The 2 loss is from shuttle in bo5 which flash won. 89.5% win rate. 15 win streak in past 3 days. GG.
On January 04 2017 12:37 Shinokuki wrote: flash also practice bonjwa while we're at it
Flash was a superlative talent (not to the level of NaDa), coupled with immense discipline (although not to the level of Jaedong) and drive to improve before he even made his debut. After heavy disagreements with his parents, he begged his parents to let him game freely for a couple of months, and got to a high level extremely quickly, playing literally thousands of games non-stop on the Fish Server Ladder. Although he wasn't that successful at winning the Courage Tournament right away (it took him nine attempts, and in some of them was severely outclassed by more skilled amateurs such as JangBi).
This was when he had a short stint as an online practice partner for KOR (precursor of OGN Sparkyz), sometime during 2006, he got into the B team of Pantech EX (precursor of WeMade Fox) as a practice partner, and shared the top spot in the in-house rankings along with NaDa for months on end, who was reaching back-to-back OGN StarLeagues at the time. However, Flash wasn't the best during practice in the grand scale of things. When MBC Game HERO practiced against Pantech EX, Flash said he lost all of his six games versus Bisu comprehensively, and was shocked by the non-stop unit production of Bisu after checking the replays. I'm not sure about the rumours about Bisu's exact level during practice except for PvZ. A lot of the MBC Game HERO members that stream on Afreeca seem to think Bisu wasn't all that special during his stay on MBC Game HERO during practice, and mentioned he got infinitely better after his move to SK Telecom T1.
Flash quickly overtook Hery as the best KTF MagicNs player during practice, but I think the team at the time was full of players on the decline such as Reach, and ChoJJa. He was said to be near invincible during practice strictly within the confines of KT Rolster, but after hearing about his practice sessions with other teams such as Woongjin Stars, maybe his TvZ wasn't as great as it became later on during his career (I think both Stork and Bisu mentioned that they were struggling against Flash during practice for a while, before Flash's immense success in 2010). I think there was a reason why he was losing standard TvZ games to Jaedong even on imbalanced maps like Rush Hour 3. I believe it is only after Flash's willingness to adopt FanTaSy's late-mech meta-game revolution (first showcased in 2009), after being thrashed by ZerO and SoulKey during practice that his TvZ skills became good enough to overcome Jaedong.
I think Flash before 2010 was only a practice bonjwa strictly within the confines of his team, considering how there are stories of Bisu thrashing him when he was the best at Pantech EX, and how he lost all eight games to ZerO and SoulKey when they first started to practice against one another extensively to prepare Flash for Jaedong. Perhaps without the help of FanTaSy's meta-game revolution, and the high quality practice sessions provided by ZerO, and SoulKey, Flash would have never overcame his relative lack of skill in the TvZ match-up compared to Jaedong by playing only mediocre zergs like HoeJJa.
Which makes me think. Jaedong was on Hwaseung Oz, then moved to the joke team of Team 8 that had zero infrastructure towards the end of his career. From what I've heard, he never had a single moment in his career (apart from his earliest days) where he wasn't the number one player in the in-house rankings. Sky (ex-professional for Hwaseung Oz) once said that he thought Central Plains (one of the most broken protoss maps of the modern era) was a zerg map because Jaedong wouldn't lose a single game to a protoss player, then when they had the opportunity to practice against Samsung Khan, Jaedong proceeded to get butt-raped hardcore by JangBi on Central Plains. That's when he realized that the map was good for protoss. I wonder how Jaedong's unmatched discipline and work ethic would have gotten him if he had the best quality of practice versus the best players.
Thanks for the info dump about flash. I've always thought Flash had strong TvZ and built onto it. Never realized it was that weak (or weak enough at least).
On January 04 2017 14:57 BigFan wrote: Thanks for the info dump about flash. I've always thought Flash had strong TvZ and built onto it. Never realized it was that weak (or weak enough at least).
In his amateur days he was known as the Bionic Genius, and was hyped for his excellent TvZ. He also formed a rivalry against Jaedong, the greatest zerg player of his era (and in history), by knocking each other out in various tournaments very early on into their careers. However, Flash's wins would mostly be reliant on unorthodox plays and brilliance of thought, while Jaedong's victories seemed to result from pure micro-management and late-game multi-tasking outperformances, and that was the general consensus about their relationship by the fans, and even professional players like YellOw.
Flash was still one of the few terrans who could threaten Jaedong with his great standard bionic play, but I was personally of the opinion that other top class terrans, especially Light, was comparable just in terms of sheer execution. Considering how Jaedong would often come out slightly ahead in a battle of pure brawns versus the Light, I think it wasn't surprising how he would crush Flash on imbalanced maps like Othello, and Rush Hour 3. Of course, their overall head-to-head record was pretty even, but even Flash admitted on stream that Jaedong was better from a pure gaming point of view during this period of time (excluding stuff like pre-game preparation).
Imagine how furious I was when Flash took a big dump all over Jaedong on various finals in 2010. I was so salty at the time. Blaming the maps like they were a crime against humanity. In retrospect, they weren't that bad, especially if you consider some of the map pools Jaedong had to overcome during his career. What was I expecting? TvZ to be a 50:50 affair? I thought at the time it must have been a combination of horrid bad map imbalance and Flash's fine form.
After hearing Flash and ZerO talk about their past experiences on stream, and how the late-mech meta-game revolution first shown by FanTaSy versus ZerO in 2009 changed the landscape of the entire scene (Sea said on stream that he used to lose over 80% of the times versus Jaedong during practice, but but maintained a 50% win rate after the introduction of late-mech), I'm starting to think otherwise. I think perhaps it wasn't just Jaedong Flash struggled mightily to win against with bionic play post-2009.
Considering how Luxury was widely considered the second zerg from late 2007 to 2008, and Flash maintained a 90% win rate versus his zerg teammates even after Luxury's transfer to KTF MagicNs in mid-2008 (shortly before his WCG 2008 victory, and his first MSL triumph in early 2009), I think it's fair to say Flash's TvZ was near unstoppable except against Jaedong during practice from 2007~2008.
After 2009, with the appearance of zergs like Calm, ZerO, and EffOrt, I'm not so sure. Maybe Flash was way better, maybe not. But considering how both Calm and EffOrt had excellent results in televised ZvT matches, I'm not that confident that he would have been able to sustain his 90% TvZ practice win rate he had within KT Rolster. I think the initial beat-down he took from the Woongjin Stars zergs was the wake-up call for Flash that he needed to change, because if he was going 0-8 versus them during practice, how could he defeat Jaedong in the upcoming individual leagues? Once he incorporated late-mech into his play, he started to thrash ZerO, and only SoulKey could keep up, and Jaedong, after being in an even worse practice environment at Team 8 (no coaches, no practice partners, just a rag tag group of rejected A teamers), was no longer the god he was during practice. From the nuance from the stories Flash told on stream, it seems like SoulKey was already better than Jaedong in ZvT (late game especially) during practice during the final year or so of Brood War. SoulKey barely keeping up with Flash during practice is no slight to Flash's practice prowess in my opinion, considering he was probably the best ZvT player during practice during that era.
In summary, from the rumours and my personal perspective on the matter, I think it goes something like this. Please keep in mind that this is all from unconfirmed hearsay, and my biased views on the whole affair.
2007~2008: Flash is unstoppable versus zergs during practice, but is a level below Jaedong, who was at his peak just in terms of being everybody else in terms of sheer skill. 2009: With the zerg-friendly map pool, and emergence of other noticeable zergs such as Calm, EffOrt and ZerO, it seems Flash is mortal versus zergs. Even on stage, he loses random series to mediocre players like Kwanro. It's not so surprising that he loses 0-8 to Woongjin Stars zergs when he first practices against them. Even during this era, he has 90% win rate versus his zerg teammates (but this is more indicative of how bad they are, rather than how good Flash was at TvZ at the time). 2010~2011: Flash is god. Both on stage, and during practice. SoulKey is said to be the zerg giving him the most trouble during practice. Jaedong is reaching all these finals, but gets his ass kicked by Flash over and over again. 2011~2012: Not sure about this period. With the lawsuits from Blizzard, the threat of Starcraft 2, and really heavy down-sizing of the number and scale of various Brood War tournaments, I'm not sure how objectively I can assess this period. Who knows who was practicing which game for how much? Totally ruins the era for me. Thank you Blizzard, for not only killing professional Brood War, but doing your best to ruin the final year and a half of it to boost your new gaming title.
I just wanted to say thank you for the posts all of you, I have read them vicariously and tbh I'm sad modern blizzard ruined the most evolved e-sports scene in the world!
Just to keep the speculation going, what would have been the zerg answer for the heavy mech switch favored by terran?
maybe going back to "cheesy" five pools and all in ling plays to force them back to bio play?
EDIT: Maybe going back to something like 3 hatch-muta play? That would force goliaths and keep the army back and prevent expansion play. Which would make it possible to play "refuge" zerg with 3 starting positions?
Letmelose, thank you for your valuable insights. Please do share those on any occasion. I am eating all those up like a fresh bread lol. Is it just me lol?
Just to keep the speculation going, what would have been the zerg answer for the heavy mech switch favored by terran?
maybe going back to "cheesy" five pools and all in ling plays to force them back to bio play?
do you mean the bio open into late mech switch by "the heavy mech switch"? 5 pool and all in lings are very easy to defend against with terran prevented by strong scvs, firebats and vultures alongside good walls available at various places of the main/natural on modern maps. Zerg allins vs T are usually very easily scouted so on most occasions are extremely hard to pull off.
I think the only 2 ways zergs can really adapt going forward is to either skip lurkers and go for some kind of tactical play with muta/ling and transition into guard or ultra/ling/defiler OR to skip muta and go into heavy defensive lurker play to tech up and macro quickly. Terrans seemed to develope too good counter vs anything that emerges from standard 3 hath muta play into lurker into hive into 3base/4base.
After reading those insights by Letmelose, I will watch Soulkey's stream more often. I watched him for a while but he struggled a lot, not only vs terrans.
On January 01 2017 12:41 classicyellow83 wrote: Jaedong played 247 sponsored games! My only disappointment is that Jaedong chose not to play Flash.
Jaedong:"I'll play Flash when I dominate all other terrans"
It's understandable imo. Flash is still on another level to Jaedong atm. It's essentially an exercise in futility. If they do meet in the semifinals, it's going to be 3-0 for Flash most likely.
Dont you think playing Flash would help JD to see his flaws?
On January 01 2017 12:41 classicyellow83 wrote: Jaedong played 247 sponsored games! My only disappointment is that Jaedong chose not to play Flash.
Jaedong:"I'll play Flash when I dominate all other terrans"
It's understandable imo. Flash is still on another level to Jaedong atm. It's essentially an exercise in futility. If they do meet in the semifinals, it's going to be 3-0 for Flash most likely.
Dont you think playing Flash would help JD to see his flaws?
he is at 50% winrate vs Terran, he don't need flash to see is flaws.
On January 04 2017 18:18 Lunaticman wrote: Just to keep the speculation going, what would have been the zerg answer for the heavy mech switch favored by terran?
maybe going back to "cheesy" five pools and all in ling plays to force them back to bio play?
EDIT: Maybe going back to something like 3 hatch-muta play? That would force goliaths and keep the army back and prevent expansion play. Which would make it possible to play "refuge" zerg with 3 starting positions?
I think you're misunderstanding something here. Terran transitions into mech from bio, meaning the ling all-ins will be dealt with bio since Terran isn't switching to mech yet. 3 hatch muta is standard zerg play and Terrans are comfortable against it with an array of their own bio builds (3 rax tech, 4/5rax +1, fast vessels etc). The mech switch comes as a response to the common 3->4 gas hive which comes into play significantly later.
On January 04 2017 18:50 kogeT wrote: I think the only 2 ways zergs can really adapt going forward is to either skip lurkers and go for some kind of tactical play with muta/ling and transition into guard or ultra/ling/defiler OR to skip muta and go into heavy defensive lurker play to tech up and macro quickly. Terrans seemed to develope too good counter vs anything that emerges from standard 3 hath muta play into lurker into hive into 3base/4base.
I don't know, man. Both mutas and lurkers are pretty much used in 95%+ of the games on modern maps. I understand your idea, it might be good on paper, but I will be surprised to see it working in high level korean ZvT.
Can someone explain to me what has changed within the past few months where Terrans are destroying Protoss so hard? Is Flash and Last just extremely good TvPers?
On January 04 2017 18:50 kogeT wrote: I think the only 2 ways zergs can really adapt going forward is to either skip lurkers and go for some kind of tactical play with muta/ling and transition into guard or ultra/ling/defiler OR to skip muta and go into heavy defensive lurker play to tech up and macro quickly. Terrans seemed to develope too good counter vs anything that emerges from standard 3 hath muta play into lurker into hive into 3base/4base.
Flash and other terrans already solved the muta into ultra builds a long time ago though and it's why you never really see it anymore. (unless it's like force[name] who only does that build zvt)
It's probably one of the easier builds for terran progamers to deal with.
On January 04 2017 18:34 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Letmelose, thank you for your valuable insights. Please do share those on any occasion. I am eating all those up like a fresh bread lol. Is it just me lol?
It is definitely not just you. I'm sure there are other lurkers out there (like me) that enjoy this stuff. Honestly posts like Letmelose's are what bring me back to check these threads. They are nuggets!
EPT
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