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On April 29 2012 04:07 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 03:59 maltey wrote:On April 29 2012 03:47 supernovamaniac wrote:On April 29 2012 03:39 maltey wrote:
Ok excellent.
@SNM/BLinD-RawR
Thanks for the input. That sounds good to me. In which case it will have to be very much coordinated with game as it sounds like he has some projects he's working on as well.
@Chef/Falling
Thank you both for the input. I still believe having a Korean/Foreigner tourney would be a good idea as it helps bring together the two scenes. These two ideas can work in tandem.
And I disagree with chef that the tourneys aren't very good. They are awesome to watch.
You're right though I haven't put enough emphasis on improving the game itself and Iccup.
So here's my list of features critical to the success of BW:
1. Automatic Port Forwarding
2. Plugin to fix W7 Color Problem
3. ELO Ranking on ICCUP (Keep letter ranks and seasons, just have a lifetime ELO rank attached so noobs can dodge?)
4. Enhance Resolution Plugin (Force AA/Image sharpening maybe as some GPU's don't do this)
5. Android Apps that link to ICCUP (like the awesome Fish server chat app)
Any other ideas?
EDIT:
@Game @CaucasianAsian
Ok I guess my list can apply to Fish/Brain Server?
Maybe our translators can start there? So should we apply efforts to getting English Fish site? Ehh not sure how many people from Fish want to collaborate because they did ban foreign IP (or was it brain?) due to massive amounts of cheating (brain is dead btw, Fish killed it). Also if anything, the people running the server aren't as bad as iCCup, but some of them are still childish (there was an incident where the person running the server just completely shutdown Fish because there was internal fight... problem was resolved under a day, but yeah). Also just because you don't like one person doesn't mean that his efforts to make something better become complete shit, heads up. Whoopsie daisies! I hope I didn't come across as disliking someone. I'm just trying to get a consensus on what people think should happen as I don't think this will succeed unless the community is behind it. Also, I thought CA's idea of an English FishBattle.net sounded like a step towards uniting the scenes. But as I'm a revolting noobie I play almost always on ICCUP so I'm very open to either direction. It sounds like we'll have server drama either way we go. EDIT: On April 29 2012 03:56 ImbaTosS wrote:It might be worth calling some more attention to this. The title is confusing, but a good point is raised by the OP. This topic Added to OP. ty I wasn't pointing at your responses, I was just giving heads up to some people who were trying to downplay some of the efforts of some people in this community (read everything and you might find what I'm talking about) English Fishbnet is a good idea, and it will allow players to play on one of the most reliable servers out there. However, the problem is that when iCCup players try to play on fish, they will get destroyed (to some extent) and that's what I'm worrying about the most.
Oh whoops again hehe. Ok so we have a problem that needs solving how do we ease in the noobs and unite the scenes at the same time.
On April 29 2012 04:06 BisuDagger wrote:
I will contribute as a:
1. Programmer - I'm an experienced video game developer I'm sure I can help
2. Caster - I shoutcasted tournaments in Orlando and Gaineville Fl. Just haven't had time to do quality stuff for TL
3. Sponsor - I am more then willing to sponsor tournaments when my budget permits.
Basically, pm me when I need to be involved otherwise I'll be forgetful since I already am so caught up with all that is happening in the SC world.
Thanks very much.
BTW everyone tune into Jumper vs Wallace going on in hacklebeast's stream right now! Hacklebeast + Imbatoss commentating 
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On April 29 2012 04:23 maltey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 04:07 supernovamaniac wrote:On April 29 2012 03:59 maltey wrote:On April 29 2012 03:47 supernovamaniac wrote:On April 29 2012 03:39 maltey wrote:
Ok excellent.
@SNM/BLinD-RawR
Thanks for the input. That sounds good to me. In which case it will have to be very much coordinated with game as it sounds like he has some projects he's working on as well.
@Chef/Falling
Thank you both for the input. I still believe having a Korean/Foreigner tourney would be a good idea as it helps bring together the two scenes. These two ideas can work in tandem.
And I disagree with chef that the tourneys aren't very good. They are awesome to watch.
You're right though I haven't put enough emphasis on improving the game itself and Iccup.
So here's my list of features critical to the success of BW:
1. Automatic Port Forwarding
2. Plugin to fix W7 Color Problem
3. ELO Ranking on ICCUP (Keep letter ranks and seasons, just have a lifetime ELO rank attached so noobs can dodge?)
4. Enhance Resolution Plugin (Force AA/Image sharpening maybe as some GPU's don't do this)
5. Android Apps that link to ICCUP (like the awesome Fish server chat app)
Any other ideas?
EDIT:
@Game @CaucasianAsian
Ok I guess my list can apply to Fish/Brain Server?
Maybe our translators can start there? So should we apply efforts to getting English Fish site? Ehh not sure how many people from Fish want to collaborate because they did ban foreign IP (or was it brain?) due to massive amounts of cheating (brain is dead btw, Fish killed it). Also if anything, the people running the server aren't as bad as iCCup, but some of them are still childish (there was an incident where the person running the server just completely shutdown Fish because there was internal fight... problem was resolved under a day, but yeah). Also just because you don't like one person doesn't mean that his efforts to make something better become complete shit, heads up. Whoopsie daisies! I hope I didn't come across as disliking someone. I'm just trying to get a consensus on what people think should happen as I don't think this will succeed unless the community is behind it. Also, I thought CA's idea of an English FishBattle.net sounded like a step towards uniting the scenes. But as I'm a revolting noobie I play almost always on ICCUP so I'm very open to either direction. It sounds like we'll have server drama either way we go. EDIT: On April 29 2012 03:56 ImbaTosS wrote:It might be worth calling some more attention to this. The title is confusing, but a good point is raised by the OP. This topic Added to OP. ty I wasn't pointing at your responses, I was just giving heads up to some people who were trying to downplay some of the efforts of some people in this community (read everything and you might find what I'm talking about) English Fishbnet is a good idea, and it will allow players to play on one of the most reliable servers out there. However, the problem is that when iCCup players try to play on fish, they will get destroyed (to some extent) and that's what I'm worrying about the most. Oh whoops again hehe. Ok so we have a problem that needs solving how do we ease in the noobs and unite the scenes at the same time. Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 04:06 BisuDagger wrote:
I will contribute as a:
1. Programmer - I'm an experienced video game developer I'm sure I can help
2. Caster - I shoutcasted tournaments in Orlando and Gaineville Fl. Just haven't had time to do quality stuff for TL
3. Sponsor - I am more then willing to sponsor tournaments when my budget permits.
Basically, pm me when I need to be involved otherwise I'll be forgetful since I already am so caught up with all that is happening in the SC world. Thanks very much. BTW everyone tune into Jumper vs Wallace going on in hacklebeast's stream right now! Hacklebeast + Imbatoss commentating
That has been the main problem (oops) and will be until the foreigners get up to the level that Koreans are at. If the foreigners are on completely different level compared to Koreans, then there is no way that both scenes would come together and play each other because Koreans will complain that games are too easy.
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On April 29 2012 04:28 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 04:23 maltey wrote:On April 29 2012 04:07 supernovamaniac wrote:On April 29 2012 03:59 maltey wrote:On April 29 2012 03:47 supernovamaniac wrote:On April 29 2012 03:39 maltey wrote:
Ok excellent.
@SNM/BLinD-RawR
Thanks for the input. That sounds good to me. In which case it will have to be very much coordinated with game as it sounds like he has some projects he's working on as well.
@Chef/Falling
Thank you both for the input. I still believe having a Korean/Foreigner tourney would be a good idea as it helps bring together the two scenes. These two ideas can work in tandem.
And I disagree with chef that the tourneys aren't very good. They are awesome to watch.
You're right though I haven't put enough emphasis on improving the game itself and Iccup.
So here's my list of features critical to the success of BW:
1. Automatic Port Forwarding
2. Plugin to fix W7 Color Problem
3. ELO Ranking on ICCUP (Keep letter ranks and seasons, just have a lifetime ELO rank attached so noobs can dodge?)
4. Enhance Resolution Plugin (Force AA/Image sharpening maybe as some GPU's don't do this)
5. Android Apps that link to ICCUP (like the awesome Fish server chat app)
Any other ideas?
EDIT:
@Game @CaucasianAsian
Ok I guess my list can apply to Fish/Brain Server?
Maybe our translators can start there? So should we apply efforts to getting English Fish site? Ehh not sure how many people from Fish want to collaborate because they did ban foreign IP (or was it brain?) due to massive amounts of cheating (brain is dead btw, Fish killed it). Also if anything, the people running the server aren't as bad as iCCup, but some of them are still childish (there was an incident where the person running the server just completely shutdown Fish because there was internal fight... problem was resolved under a day, but yeah). Also just because you don't like one person doesn't mean that his efforts to make something better become complete shit, heads up. Whoopsie daisies! I hope I didn't come across as disliking someone. I'm just trying to get a consensus on what people think should happen as I don't think this will succeed unless the community is behind it. Also, I thought CA's idea of an English FishBattle.net sounded like a step towards uniting the scenes. But as I'm a revolting noobie I play almost always on ICCUP so I'm very open to either direction. It sounds like we'll have server drama either way we go. EDIT: On April 29 2012 03:56 ImbaTosS wrote:It might be worth calling some more attention to this. The title is confusing, but a good point is raised by the OP. This topic Added to OP. ty I wasn't pointing at your responses, I was just giving heads up to some people who were trying to downplay some of the efforts of some people in this community (read everything and you might find what I'm talking about) English Fishbnet is a good idea, and it will allow players to play on one of the most reliable servers out there. However, the problem is that when iCCup players try to play on fish, they will get destroyed (to some extent) and that's what I'm worrying about the most. Oh whoops again hehe. Ok so we have a problem that needs solving how do we ease in the noobs and unite the scenes at the same time. On April 29 2012 04:06 BisuDagger wrote:
I will contribute as a:
1. Programmer - I'm an experienced video game developer I'm sure I can help
2. Caster - I shoutcasted tournaments in Orlando and Gaineville Fl. Just haven't had time to do quality stuff for TL
3. Sponsor - I am more then willing to sponsor tournaments when my budget permits.
Basically, pm me when I need to be involved otherwise I'll be forgetful since I already am so caught up with all that is happening in the SC world. Thanks very much. BTW everyone tune into Jumper vs Wallace going on in hacklebeast's stream right now! Hacklebeast + Imbatoss commentating That has been the main problem (oops) and will be until the foreigners get up to the level that Koreans are at. If the foreigners are on completely different level compared to Koreans, then there is no way that both scenes would come together and play each other because Koreans will complain that games are too easy.
I completely agree that putting together tourneys that are open to the Koreans and foreigners both will always be one sided. This is one of the biggest reasons the scene has been split for so long. A divided scene made sense as long as we could watch Proleague/OSL/MSL for the high quality games and then watch foreigner tourneys to cheer for the local heroes.
But sc2 has, for better or worse, changed both of those things. 95% of the high level foreigners went on to play sc2 and now the Korean Proleague seems to be making the switch too. The main reason afaik for their switch was not lack of interest but lack of sponsors.
So to me the first phase of this project is just getting some grassroots money for a (mostly) Korean amateur tournament. To me this has nothing to do with merging the two competitive scenes as the Koreans would just dominate anyways. But it has everything to do with connecting Korean players with foreign viewers/sponsors. While we can never compete with sc2 in terms of viewers or cash being thrown around, we may be able to get enough to sustain a small league where we can still watch high level (read Korean) games of bw if (read when) Proleague shifts completely over.
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On April 29 2012 07:16 CakeOrI)eath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 04:28 supernovamaniac wrote:On April 29 2012 04:23 maltey wrote:On April 29 2012 04:07 supernovamaniac wrote:On April 29 2012 03:59 maltey wrote:On April 29 2012 03:47 supernovamaniac wrote:On April 29 2012 03:39 maltey wrote:
Ok excellent.
@SNM/BLinD-RawR
Thanks for the input. That sounds good to me. In which case it will have to be very much coordinated with game as it sounds like he has some projects he's working on as well.
@Chef/Falling
Thank you both for the input. I still believe having a Korean/Foreigner tourney would be a good idea as it helps bring together the two scenes. These two ideas can work in tandem.
And I disagree with chef that the tourneys aren't very good. They are awesome to watch.
You're right though I haven't put enough emphasis on improving the game itself and Iccup.
So here's my list of features critical to the success of BW:
1. Automatic Port Forwarding
2. Plugin to fix W7 Color Problem
3. ELO Ranking on ICCUP (Keep letter ranks and seasons, just have a lifetime ELO rank attached so noobs can dodge?)
4. Enhance Resolution Plugin (Force AA/Image sharpening maybe as some GPU's don't do this)
5. Android Apps that link to ICCUP (like the awesome Fish server chat app)
Any other ideas?
EDIT:
@Game @CaucasianAsian
Ok I guess my list can apply to Fish/Brain Server?
Maybe our translators can start there? So should we apply efforts to getting English Fish site? Ehh not sure how many people from Fish want to collaborate because they did ban foreign IP (or was it brain?) due to massive amounts of cheating (brain is dead btw, Fish killed it). Also if anything, the people running the server aren't as bad as iCCup, but some of them are still childish (there was an incident where the person running the server just completely shutdown Fish because there was internal fight... problem was resolved under a day, but yeah). Also just because you don't like one person doesn't mean that his efforts to make something better become complete shit, heads up. Whoopsie daisies! I hope I didn't come across as disliking someone. I'm just trying to get a consensus on what people think should happen as I don't think this will succeed unless the community is behind it. Also, I thought CA's idea of an English FishBattle.net sounded like a step towards uniting the scenes. But as I'm a revolting noobie I play almost always on ICCUP so I'm very open to either direction. It sounds like we'll have server drama either way we go. EDIT: On April 29 2012 03:56 ImbaTosS wrote:It might be worth calling some more attention to this. The title is confusing, but a good point is raised by the OP. This topic Added to OP. ty I wasn't pointing at your responses, I was just giving heads up to some people who were trying to downplay some of the efforts of some people in this community (read everything and you might find what I'm talking about) English Fishbnet is a good idea, and it will allow players to play on one of the most reliable servers out there. However, the problem is that when iCCup players try to play on fish, they will get destroyed (to some extent) and that's what I'm worrying about the most. Oh whoops again hehe. Ok so we have a problem that needs solving how do we ease in the noobs and unite the scenes at the same time. On April 29 2012 04:06 BisuDagger wrote:
I will contribute as a:
1. Programmer - I'm an experienced video game developer I'm sure I can help
2. Caster - I shoutcasted tournaments in Orlando and Gaineville Fl. Just haven't had time to do quality stuff for TL
3. Sponsor - I am more then willing to sponsor tournaments when my budget permits.
Basically, pm me when I need to be involved otherwise I'll be forgetful since I already am so caught up with all that is happening in the SC world. Thanks very much. BTW everyone tune into Jumper vs Wallace going on in hacklebeast's stream right now! Hacklebeast + Imbatoss commentating That has been the main problem (oops) and will be until the foreigners get up to the level that Koreans are at. If the foreigners are on completely different level compared to Koreans, then there is no way that both scenes would come together and play each other because Koreans will complain that games are too easy. I completely agree that putting together tourneys that are open to the Koreans and foreigners both will always be one sided. This is one of the biggest reasons the scene has been split for so long. A divided scene made sense as long as we could watch Proleague/OSL/MSL for the high quality games and then watch foreigner tourneys to cheer for the local heroes. But sc2 has, for better or worse, changed both of those things. 95% of the high level foreigners went on to play sc2 and now the Korean Proleague seems to be making the switch too. The main reason afaik for their switch was not lack of interest but lack of sponsors. So to me the first phase of this project is just getting some grassroots money for a (mostly) Korean amateur tournament. To me this has nothing to do with merging the two competitive scenes as the Koreans would just dominate anyways. But it has everything to do with connecting Korean players with foreign viewers/sponsors. While we can never compete with sc2 in terms of viewers or cash being thrown around, we may be able to get enough to sustain a small league where we can still watch high level (read Korean) games of bw if (read when) Proleague shifts completely over.
I'm not talking about tournaments (Look at Sziky), I'm talking about the general players that are out there.
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I think something that deters players from playing and enjoying BW is the inability to host. Is there really no way around the ports? Is it possible to program something that solves this problem?
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On April 29 2012 07:36 blubbdavid wrote:
I think something that deters players from playing and enjoying BW is the inability to host. Is there really no way around the ports? Is it possible to program something that solves this problem?
Plenty of threads on TL about opening your ports.
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On April 29 2012 07:46 Game wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 07:36 blubbdavid wrote:
I think something that deters players from playing and enjoying BW is the inability to host. Is there really no way around the ports? Is it possible to program something that solves this problem? Plenty of threads on TL about opening your ports.
That's really off-putting for someone totally new to the game though. The ideal thing would be a plugin included with ICCUP launcher, but it's probably impossible. I use multiple routers because I go in between a couple places, so I caved and bought PFConfig. Best $20 I spent on my gaming habit, besides BW itself of course.
I've been through revitalization efforts with games before, specifically a MUD. Never worked for the MUD, but maybe a game with actual graphics will work
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On April 29 2012 07:46 Game wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 07:36 blubbdavid wrote:
I think something that deters players from playing and enjoying BW is the inability to host. Is there really no way around the ports? Is it possible to program something that solves this problem? Plenty of threads on TL about opening your ports.
Yeah i used one myself to get my ports opened but there are still a lot of people that cant figure it out/dont want to/are not able to port forward. There are a lot of players who just sit in the join area of bnet hoping someone makes a d- game. Too many potential players will give up IMO. Making the game more accessible and easier to use cant possibly be a bad thing.
@SNM Looks like i started a trend of misunderstanding your posts eh? 
@CakeorI)eath I do agree with everything you say though.
@everyone to reinvigorate the noobie scene i was wondering about the idea of a second low-level clan similar to sGs? Maybe we can have a fun rivalry/clan war type dynamic going on? It might be a good way to help keep interest in the game and measure progress. Good idea/bad idea? sGs is awesome so a second one is almost double awesome right?
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On April 29 2012 09:14 maltey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 07:46 Game wrote:On April 29 2012 07:36 blubbdavid wrote:
I think something that deters players from playing and enjoying BW is the inability to host. Is there really no way around the ports? Is it possible to program something that solves this problem? Plenty of threads on TL about opening your ports. Yeah i used one myself to get my ports opened but there are still a lot of people that cant figure it out/dont want to/are not able to port forward. There are a lot of players who just sit in the join area of bnet hoping someone makes a d- game. Too many potential players will give up IMO. Making the game more accessible and easier to use cant possibly be a bad thing. @SNM Looks like i started a trend of misunderstanding your posts eh? @CakeorI)eath I do agree with everything you say though. @everyone to reinvigorate the noobie scene i was wondering about the idea of a second low-level clan similar to sGs? Maybe we can have a fun rivalry/clan war type dynamic going on? It might be a good way to help keep interest in the game and measure progress. Good idea/bad idea? sGs is awesome so a second one is almost double awesome right?
Used to have that between StC and ITP. Both defunct.
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@maltey
You asked for my opinion, but I have a mutual agreement with iCCup that we don't like each other, and all of your ideas are either almost impossible or to do with iCCup so I don't know what to tell you man. I'm all for inducing funds and prominent features into the BW scene, so I will say your one idea is good. The ELO. Not an iCCup ELO, they "have" that. But a general one, for all cash tournaments. I've actually been looking for 5 people to help me gather information on roughly 100 players for a LOT of tournaments to assist me in creating the only accurate foreign ELO. GosuGamers has an alright one, but they've ruined it by attributing too much worth to low value content just because of age rather than foundation. Also the inactivity is very harsh with how limited of a community we have to deal with for a proper ELO.
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On April 29 2012 11:20 Game wrote:
@maltey
You asked for my opinion, but I have a mutual agreement with iCCup that we don't like each other, and all of your ideas are either almost impossible or to do with iCCup so I don't know what to tell you man. I'm all for inducing funds and prominent features into the BW scene, so I will say your one idea is good. The ELO. Not an iCCup ELO, they "have" that. But a general one, for all cash tournaments. I've actually been looking for 5 people to help me gather information on roughly 100 players for a LOT of tournaments to assist me in creating the only accurate foreign ELO. GosuGamers has an alright one, but they've ruined it by attributing too much worth to low value content just because of age rather than foundation. Also the inactivity is very harsh with how limited of a community we have to deal with for a proper ELO.
Thanks for your feedback Game 
I'll see how I can incorporate it.
Another idea: "State of the Brood War" show. Anyone like this idea? I saw "State of the Empire" for AOC and it was pretty good even though there was only one guest who had English as a first language.
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I would be very intersted in being either a stream tech or a caster.
If you honestly want to know where the real issue lies its in the skill gap between korea and foreigners. What we're offering them is basically a huge group of E's by their scale with maybe 5 to 10 Cs which even then, its very low level. The gap you havr to worry about isn't recruiting lowbies to become from foreigner D to foreigner C-. Its getting foreigner C to A to Korean level C and B. A fish B is ridiculously beyond the foreign scene right now especially if you consider you're facing tons of teams of fish B and A and higher.
Close the foreigner C and up to the fish/korean C and up, and you can integrate much better.
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On April 29 2012 12:22 sCCrooked wrote:
I would be very intersted in being either a stream tech or a caster.
If you honestly want to know where the real issue lies its in the skill gap between korea and foreigners. What we're offering them is basically a huge group of E's by their scale with maybe 5 to 10 Cs which even then, its very low level. The gap you havr to worry about isn't recruiting lowbies to become from foreigner D to foreigner C-. Its getting foreigner C to A to Korean level C and B. A fish B is ridiculously beyond the foreign scene right now especially if you consider you're facing tons of teams of fish B and A and higher.
Close the foreigner C and up to the fish/korean C and up, and you can integrate much better.
Very true. Also, I'd love to help with casting as well.
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On April 29 2012 11:32 maltey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 11:20 Game wrote:
@maltey
You asked for my opinion, but I have a mutual agreement with iCCup that we don't like each other, and all of your ideas are either almost impossible or to do with iCCup so I don't know what to tell you man. I'm all for inducing funds and prominent features into the BW scene, so I will say your one idea is good. The ELO. Not an iCCup ELO, they "have" that. But a general one, for all cash tournaments. I've actually been looking for 5 people to help me gather information on roughly 100 players for a LOT of tournaments to assist me in creating the only accurate foreign ELO. GosuGamers has an alright one, but they've ruined it by attributing too much worth to low value content just because of age rather than foundation. Also the inactivity is very harsh with how limited of a community we have to deal with for a proper ELO. Thanks for your feedback Game I'll see how I can incorporate it. Another idea: "State of the Brood War" show. Anyone like this idea? I saw "State of the Empire" for AOC and it was pretty good even though there was only one guest who had English as a first language.
State of the Game
State of the League
The main problem is, can we get enough panels to discuss on BW? I guess it can last for few months, but I don't know how many people will constantly come back to watch the show. I'm all in for talking about Korean e-Sports, but atm I'm trying to learn as much as I can on the SC2 scene while trying to keep up with Korean BW players (or I should say KeSPA-sponsored players)
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Korea (South)11601 Posts
I'm down to be part of that, but idk how much new information there is for it to be a regular thing
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Korea (South)11601 Posts
I have spoken with a few korean teams (Lt, Name, z-zone so far) and they all show interest in something like this.
I asked if they would be interested in a clan league with foreigners, a semi-pro / ex pro gamer show match (they're hesitant on this), and starleague.
They did say some joking thing like "foreigners would be paying us to play them? Are they crazy?"
please note, that's not their exact words!
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51267 Posts
On April 29 2012 17:32 CaucasianAsian wrote:
I have spoken with a few korean teams (Lt, Name, z-zone so far) and they all show interest in something like this.
I asked if they would be interested in a clan league with foreigners, a semi-pro / ex pro gamer show match (they're hesitant on this), and starleague.
They did say some joking thing like "foreigners would be paying us to play them? Are they crazy?"
please note, that's not their exact words!
lol, but really I'd like to pay them to play each other too.
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On April 29 2012 17:32 CaucasianAsian wrote:
They did say some joking thing like "foreigners would be paying us to play them? Are they crazy?"
please note, that's not their exact words!
yes. and yes ^^
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Even if we lose it might motivate a bunch of players of all leagues to practice more with the goal of making it on the "foreigner" team.
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On April 29 2012 23:51 L3gendary wrote:
Even if we lose it might motivate a bunch of players of all leagues to practice more with the goal of making it on the "foreigner" team.
Haha, I could see a global proleague where the foreigner team is the "Air Force Ace" of the league. Lose almost every game but still participate to promote involvement.
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EPT
