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Important: As foreigners we already have some awesome events such as the Altitude ISL, Gambit's Cup, and Noise's Amateur StarLeague to name a few currently running. The intention of this thread is only to strengthen these events and the community by uniting the Korean and International scenes as well as incorporating any other good ideas the community might come up with.
Please remember to watch and support the ISL and all the other amazing foreigner events. 
Our Current Goal: To organize a community effort to support amateur Starleagues and Proleagues with the Korean Amateur scene and to strengthen the community in any way possible.
CakeOrI)eath's must-read epic post to understand this thread:
On May 01 2012 13:17 CakeOrI)eath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 10:45 CaucasianAsian wrote:
Like I said, I'm willing to organize anything that has to do with Koreans.
If people are interested in korean events, I can get VODs or replays (sometimes). If Foreigners are interested in starting a team for the fish clan league, I can help set it up. If foreigners are interested in a show match vs korean amateurs or ex-pro gamers I can set it up.
I admit I don't follow foreign starcraft at all. I don't know who the good foreign players are, and I haven't played iccup beyond gem league in a long long time. I played on fish solely for the past year, and brainclan for a year or two before that.
If people are interested in watching high level gaming for their own entertainment using their own hard earned money then I will do whatever I can to make it happen. If they want to see JoeSmith55 play against a 1500+ (I think that's really low of an ELO personally to warrant a showmatch for money, but that's my own opinion) Korean then I will do what I can.
I didn't say I was going to do this blind, I was peaking interest and if people were interested in donating / helping out / watching then we would have somewhere to go.
But we already have quite a bit of foreign only events (ISL, Gambit Cups, etc...) and if people want to see the highest level matches they can when no more BW is playing on the professional level, then this can be a way to do it. I agree with CaucasianAsian. We might have lost most of the good foreigner players and even tournaments to sc2 (TSL etc.) but we still have some foreign only tourneys and events. Game, along with others, have done remarkable work keeping those alive. The true thing that many of us fear losing is the professional sc1 Korean scene and broadcasts. To me this thread is about keeping the spirit of that alive and available to foreigners to watch. This might just mean finding better ways to tune into Korean amateur tournaments that are already going on (and possibly donating to them). It might mean funding our own tourney for the Koreans to play in. Either would mean crossing a lot of cultural barriers. I honestly don't know why its so hard for foreigners to access fish/afreeka. It seems the Koreans have no interest in making themselves available to us either through ignorance, apathy, or national pride (sc is Korean sport, gtfo everyone else). At the end of the day it doesn't really matter what reason it is, that's where the money comes in. If we make it clear we are willing to pay to watch high level bw, I'm confident that will change most of their attitudes. To start off that money is going to have to come mostly, if not entirely, from viewer donations. I think we all agree we don't want a pay wall since we want to grow viewership, not kill it. While that model might actually be sustainable, I am personally hoping that we could actually grow viewership to the point that advertisers would be tempted to take over, or at least help. Either way, that is a long way off and it'ss assuming the KR progamers fully switch over to sc2 (I personally am still hoping they switch back to sc1 after this one year, and none of this will matter but I know its wishful thinking) The thing I will agree with Game about is mixing the foreigners in. As much as I would LOVE to see our best players at least take a game off of the top KR amateurs, it just isn't going to happen. I certainly wouldn't bar them from entering but only invite them if they have a legit chance of winning a BO3-BO5. A 50-50 mix would mean so many walkovers it would just be a waste of time for everyone.
+ Show Spoiler +Short Term:IMO the quickest and best results we can get is to do as BLinD-RawR suggested and raise funds for a Korean Clan League tourney with all star foreigner clan. * According to kjwcj: ---1 to 2 day tourney = ~200$ ---ISL length tourney = ~2000$ ---koreans will be reluctant to stream anything but afreeca though they may be ok with dual afreeca/twitch stream ---biggest problem should be communication/time logistics ---our community is totally capable of accomplishing our goal if we can overcome the logistics * + Show Spoiler [kjwcj's very informative post] +
On April 28 2012 17:38 kjwcj wrote:
Before trying to do anything with the Koreans, you have to accept that you're never going to get them off Afreeca entirely. The main reason for this is that the return per viewer on Afreeca, by way of the balloon donation system, is so much greater than that of Twitch or its competitors.
For example, HiyA broadcasts to an average audience of 500-600 people 5-6 nights a week. By the standards of an SC2 or LoL stream on Twitch, this is small potatoes. However, HiyA receives enough donations from this relatively small viewer base to earn a decent living. This is the case for any number of other ex-pro broadcasters who also rarely attract more than 600 viewers but are still able to make streaming Starcraft their full time occupation.
Obviously, there are possible compromises. In the past, Nada has dual broadcasted to Afreeca and Twitch by running Xsplit and the Afreeca Broadcasting software in tandem. This is a decent alternative as it would allow the players to earn something from their foreign audience through Twitch ad revenue without cutting them off from their normal Korean audience. The effort to get something like that set up could potentially be a barrier for entry, as well as actually finding someone to show these guys how to set everything up.
Something that is probably a little bit more straightforward is simply having them come to us. A few hundred thousand won (ie. a few hundred USD) is a normal prize pool for a 1-2 day event featuring all the top ex and semi pro players. For a longer ISL scale event two million won (a bit less than two thousand USD) has been a rough average for the tournaments I've seen in the past six months. Obviously these aren't small amounts of money for just one person to be stumping up but they're not that different to the prize pools that we see in foreign events, so with a mix of sponsorship and donations it might be possible.
The logistics involved in organising a tournament with mainly or all Korean players has a lot of difficulties and not just those related to the language barrier. Simply having the connections to get in contact with the players you want to invite has its potential difficulties, as well as organising a way for the games to be played at a time that is reasonable for both the players and the audience. Replay casts are very uncommon in the Korean amateur tournaments I've seen and keeping the results of games private until the broadcast would be especially difficult given the fact that almost every player streams their FPV during tournament games.
Simply put, it is easily within the power of the existing BW community to put together something worthy of the absolute best that the Korean amateur scene has to offer. The difficulty is in actually making the connection and having them know (and care) that we're here.
Here is a great idea that Jaevlaterran is working on.
I originally wanted to secure funding through kickstarter but after looking more closely at their site it appears they are more geared towards artists, musicians, etc.
So securing funding is our most important task now.
I'm going to follow Game's advice. Let's see if we, as a community can find some sponsorships.Any Ideas?
+ Show Spoiler [Funding Poll] +On April 28 2012 22:02 Emon_ wrote:Let's try to fix funding: Poll: How much would you donate for a foreigner run tournament?10$ (18) 49% 20$ (9) 24% 50$+ (9) 24% 50$ (1) 3% 37 total votes Your vote: How much would you donate for a foreigner run tournament? (Vote): 10$
(Vote): 20$
(Vote): 50$
(Vote): 50$+
Poll: Is this a worthwhile endeavor?Yes (82) 54% No (56) 37% Not Sure (13) 9% Other (0) 0% 151 total votes Your vote: Is this a worthwhile endeavor? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Not Sure
(Vote): Other
Long term:
Creation of a BW Community Tourney Organization
The creation of a community run Organization whose purpose is to raise funds for and organize StarLeagues in addition to promoting and strengthening the community in general. A sort of benign KeSPA that instead of being controlled by corporations is controlled directly by the Brood War community itself. This one needs lots of discussion in my opinion.
If Pro BW goes under, hopefully we can convince the Korean Clans to join us by:
* Starting this organization,
* Raising money through Kickstarter
----Under the condition that a league, whether proleague or starleague format, brings in Korean Amateurs and has English streams. Plus whatever else the community wants. If it doesn't happen, everyone that donated gets their money back.
* Perhaps have a membership fee which goes to prize pools etc. (Inspired by Jaevlaterran's post)
Korean/International Starleague
As this is long term perhaps this can be the next ISL? (In which case we need Game's? input.)
If not we could always attempt to collaborate to start a Korean Starleague but allow foreigners to qualify.
If we want to Strengthen the Foreign Brood War Scene there is no better thread than this one.
+ Show Spoiler +Adding Game FeaturesMaking the game more accessible and enjoyable in general. MoC's Chaos Plugins were amazing but we need to take up the torch i think. Calling all Gosu Programmers. 1. Automatic Port Forwarding 2. Plugin to fix W7 Color Problem 3. ELO Ranking on ICCUP (Keep letter ranks and seasons, just have a lifetime ELO rank attached so noobs can dodge?) 4. Enhance Resolution Plugin (Force AA/Image sharpening maybe as some GPU's don't do this) 5. Android Apps that link to ICCUP (like the awesome Fish server chat app) Knocking Down the Language Barrier* Talk To Me in Korean* TL Learn Korean ThreadThanks to Stratos for pointing these out to me. * MemriseVolunteers:TranslatorsStarburst CaucasianAsian Artistsquuad (3d artist/animator) CastersStarburst sCCrooked Volunteers Still NeededTranslators Artists Programmers Techs for possible help setting up streams/etc. Casters Anything else I can't think of? All constructive critiques and ideas are very welcome
+ Show Spoiler [Old Post] +I'm starting this thread in the hopes of getting some constructive conversation going. How can we help BW thrive? IMO the Korean clans(n.Die, Neo.G, sea, shield, white, by, etc) are going to be the key to keeping extremely high quality BW going if KeSPA completely switches to SC2. (Though I'm still hoping that doesn't happen) Does anyone know what the Korean clans are planning? If not perhaps they can replace the current professional teams as the best in Korean BW. Perhaps we can somehow coordinate with them? Get a pay structure to support starleagues? Advertising through twitch etc. Perhaps we can setup a "kickstarter.com" type funding where everyone can donate money but if it doesn't reach the goal for the starleague no harm done. Everyone gets their money back A potential setup in collaborating with the koreans could be to have an observer stream to twitch (probably delay 10 min to prevent cheating) with no commentary, just game sounds, then have korean and english casters restream over the top of it? That way we get game sounds and no cheating and the casters can still interact with the chat. Maybe even webcams to see our heroic casters and/or get reactions of players. Hopefully with a setup like this we can have very high quality with very low overhead. What ideas do you guys have? How completely terrible are mine? :p My intention is to update this OP with good ideas if there is some kind of a consensus.
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There's nothing the foreign scene can do for BW in Korea besides moral support and positive messages.
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Agreed, if you could have done anything, Kespa would have come to us ealier.
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Maybe someone opens an account on Afreeca solely for foreigners to donate money. Must be someone trustworthy.
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Maybe I was unclear? I have no intention of doing anything with kespa. That would be unproductive at best I think. I'm hoping for stuff more along the lines of taking the scene into the community's own hands so we can't be betrayed by stupidity again.
I'm talking Altitude ISL type starleagues for the Korean clans in the future and actively giving our monetary support (hopefully mostly through advertising/donating to prize pools) as well as moral support.
And of course I was hoping folks could contribute other ideas as well
Edit: I like the idea of the Afreeca account. Maybe majaeyoon or bgvrt?
Edit 2: Hopefully the above post didn't come across as bm. It was intended to be the opposite :p
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Korea (South)11570 Posts
On April 28 2012 08:41 blubbdavid wrote:
Maybe someone opens an account on Afreeca solely for foreigners to donate money. Must be someone trustworthy.
whenever i want to watch afreeca streams (vods work fine) i keep getting a message saying they don't allow foreigner IP's
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I would love to see some synergy between the foreign community and the amateur korean community, but I wouldn't even know how to begin lol
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i'm too dumb to help but i'm positively supporting this topic.
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On April 28 2012 09:23 Ideas wrote:
I would love to see some synergy between the foreign community and the amateur korean community, but I wouldn't even know how to begin lol
Thank you. This is exactly what I was going for but didn't know how to put into words. If we can get some synergy between our two communities BW can come back stronger than ever.
Does anyone know the Korean Clans' reactions to the news of the PL hybrid league?
What do people think of my streaming ideas (in OP)? Are they at all viable?
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I'd be down to help. Ozzie, we could go to SK and track down the heads of the clans xd (this is morely btw). I like the idea of streams but i dont know how we could coordinate with the koreans.
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On April 28 2012 09:57 Starburst wrote:
I'd be down to help. Ozzie, we could go to SK and track down the heads of the clans xd (this is morely btw). I like the idea of streams but i dont know how we could coordinate with the koreans.
Yeah I'm thinking the language barrier is the primary problem right now. We do have a couple of people who can act as go-betweens--Optical Shot and SNM immediately come to mind and I'm sure there's many more.
So if we want to establish a Korean Amateur/International Community to support amateur StarLeagues/ProLeagues we need:
1. Somewhere on the web to congregate/organize.
a. Hopefully TL cause I love this site but maybe we need something special as I wouldn't want koreans to be forced to use English. Is this an actual problem or all in my head?
2. Translators.
a. A bunch if possible.
3. An established way of funding the Leagues.
a. Paypal, kickstarter, crowdfunding, afreeca, twitch/google advertising etc
4. An established way of streaming.
a. Maybe twitch/own3d won't work very well for Koreans?
5. An Organization
a. Probably one with by-laws to establish responsibilities; deal with problems; etc.
b. Right now I'm picturing something entirely community operated. And totally not-for-profit so that all funds go to the League and community. Hopefully entirely volunteers.
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Maybe someone who's more knowledgable with the BW circuit or Korean scene should initiate this project, no disrespect to the OP.
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On April 28 2012 10:31 maltey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 09:57 Starburst wrote:
I'd be down to help. Ozzie, we could go to SK and track down the heads of the clans xd (this is morely btw). I like the idea of streams but i dont know how we could coordinate with the koreans. Yeah I'm thinking the language barrier is the primary problem right now. We do have a couple of people who can act as go-betweens--Optical Shot and SNM immediately come to mind and I'm sure there's many more. So if we want to establish a Korean Amateur/International Community to support amateur StarLeagues/ProLeagues we need: 1. Somewhere on the web to congregate/organize. a. Hopefully TL cause I love this site but maybe we need something special as I wouldn't want koreans to be forced to use English. Is this an actual problem or all in my head? 2. Translators. a. A bunch if possible. 3. An established way of funding the Leagues. a. Paypal, kickstarter, crowdfunding, afreeca, twitch/google advertising etc 4. An established way of streaming. a. Maybe twitch/own3d won't work very well for Koreans? 5. An Organization a. Probably one with by-laws to establish responsibilities; deal with problems; etc. b. Right now I'm picturing something entirely community operated. And totally not-for-profit so that all funds go to the League and community. Hopefully entirely volunteers.
You know, when I was in Korea last summer, I tried to get the word 'TL' on OGN/MBC broadcast as much as possible. It's not that they don't know it exists; they just think that it ain't big because they never spend good quality time here at TL.
I have to say, CJ Entus PR was amazing at promoting streamers/TL though when bbyong held up that sign last year. That was amazing.
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On April 28 2012 08:34 maltey wrote:
IMO the Korean clans(n.Die, Neo.G, sea, shield, white, by, etc) are going to be the key to keeping extremely high quality BW going if KeSPA completely switches to SC2. (Though I'm still hoping that doesn't happen) Does anyone know what the Korean clans are planning?
Shield is already playing SC2.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309945
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On April 28 2012 10:32 fYlddnaHturtDyaWdmAi wrote:
Maybe someone who's more knowledgable with the BW circuit or Korean scene should initiate this project, no disrespect to the OP.
That would be perfect I have been following BW avidly since 2009 but you're right: There are many people more qualified than I am. I just wanted someone to start this conversation and tell me it was a good or bad idea so I could get it out of my head.
On April 28 2012 10:36 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 10:31 maltey wrote:On April 28 2012 09:57 Starburst wrote:
I'd be down to help. Ozzie, we could go to SK and track down the heads of the clans xd (this is morely btw). I like the idea of streams but i dont know how we could coordinate with the koreans. Yeah I'm thinking the language barrier is the primary problem right now. We do have a couple of people who can act as go-betweens--Optical Shot and SNM immediately come to mind and I'm sure there's many more. So if we want to establish a Korean Amateur/International Community to support amateur StarLeagues/ProLeagues we need: 1. Somewhere on the web to congregate/organize. a. Hopefully TL cause I love this site but maybe we need something special as I wouldn't want koreans to be forced to use English. Is this an actual problem or all in my head? 2. Translators. a. A bunch if possible. 3. An established way of funding the Leagues. a. Paypal, kickstarter, crowdfunding, afreeca, twitch/google advertising etc 4. An established way of streaming. a. Maybe twitch/own3d won't work very well for Koreans? 5. An Organization a. Probably one with by-laws to establish responsibilities; deal with problems; etc. b. Right now I'm picturing something entirely community operated. And totally not-for-profit so that all funds go to the League and community. Hopefully entirely volunteers. You know, when I was in Korea last summer, I tried to get the word 'TL' on OGN/MBC broadcast as much as possible. It's not that they don't know it exists; they just think that it ain't big because they never spend good quality time here at TL. I have to say, CJ Entus PR was amazing at promoting streamers/TL though when bbyong held up that sign last year. That was amazing.
I'm hoping that if Pro BW goes under we can convince the Korean Clans differently. For example, we start an organization, then that org starts a kickstarter. International BW fans donate to the kickstarter under the conditions of a Korean Clan StarLeague with English streams or something like that. If it gets big enough that should attract some attention of the Koreans right? If it doesn't get big enough, everyone gets their money back and no harm done.
You have more knowledge than most when it comes to Korean scene. Is a hybrid amateur Korean/International scene possible? Keep in mind I'm talking about the clans and not KeSPA as I think KeSPA is a lost cause.
EDIT:
On April 28 2012 10:50 Kergy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 08:34 maltey wrote:
IMO the Korean clans(n.Die, Neo.G, sea, shield, white, by, etc) are going to be the key to keeping extremely high quality BW going if KeSPA completely switches to SC2. (Though I'm still hoping that doesn't happen) Does anyone know what the Korean clans are planning? Shield is already playing SC2. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309945
Ah Damn. But we don't need them all for this to work and I'd imagine we could spark the creation of a few new ones if it does work. *Crosses Fingers*
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If some of you bw passionates would log in on iccup every once in a while so that I didn't have to endlessly search for ladder games, that would be a step in the right direction.
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On April 28 2012 10:56 hifriend wrote:
If some of you bw passionates would log in on iccup every once in a while so that I didn't have to endlessly search for ladder games, that would be a step in the right direction.
True. Iccup is so desolate nowadays. I remember when you could literally join all the games you want and be playing 20-30 games in a matter of 2 hours. Those were fun times.
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United States10087 Posts
maybe some more team or clan things to get bw back on its feet. maybe people will recognize we aren't dead. ill try to get more on iccup and hope others will follow.
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If there was something that the foreign brood war community could of done, I'm sure it would of happened already. This is one of the most passionate communities I've ever seen.
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It would be cool if we could get them to stream on twitch or something. I'd definitely follow any interclan leagues or even just streaming random games.
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On April 28 2012 11:49 TBone- wrote:
If there was something that the foreign brood war community could of done, I'm sure it would of happened already. This is one of the most passionate communities I've ever seen.
I would agree with you except for one thing: prior to now, there has been absolutely no demand for this. We've had Pro BW. Why would we care? Now that pro BW is likely on its last legs I think people are starting to look for other options. In addition, the technology that enables this kind of thing has only sprung up in the last couple years as well.
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If Korean clans have leagues, I'll try to watch live. If they have live events or finals, I'll try to attend.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49629 Posts
why don't we raise money to run something like this again..
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I'm going to keep bumping this thread for eternity.
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On April 28 2012 10:31 maltey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 09:57 Starburst wrote:
I'd be down to help. Ozzie, we could go to SK and track down the heads of the clans xd (this is morely btw). I like the idea of streams but i dont know how we could coordinate with the koreans. Yeah I'm thinking the language barrier is the primary problem right now. We do have a couple of people who can act as go-betweens--Optical Shot and SNM immediately come to mind and I'm sure there's many more. So if we want to establish a Korean Amateur/International Community to support amateur StarLeagues/ProLeagues we need: + Show Spoiler +
1. Somewhere on the web to congregate/organize.
a. Hopefully TL cause I love this site but maybe we need something special as I wouldn't want koreans to be forced to use English. Is this an actual problem or all in my head?
2. Translators.
a. A bunch if possible.
3. An established way of funding the Leagues.
a. Paypal, kickstarter, crowdfunding, afreeca, twitch/google advertising etc
4. An established way of streaming.
a. Maybe twitch/own3d won't work very well for Koreans?
5. An Organization
a. Probably one with by-laws to establish responsibilities; deal with problems; etc.
b. Right now I'm picturing something entirely community operated. And totally not-for-profit so that all funds go to the League and community. Hopefully entirely volunteers.
I'm actually going into my third semester of Korean, so I can speak a decent amount if that helps.
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On April 28 2012 12:42 Starburst wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 10:31 maltey wrote:On April 28 2012 09:57 Starburst wrote:
I'd be down to help. Ozzie, we could go to SK and track down the heads of the clans xd (this is morely btw). I like the idea of streams but i dont know how we could coordinate with the koreans. Yeah I'm thinking the language barrier is the primary problem right now. We do have a couple of people who can act as go-betweens--Optical Shot and SNM immediately come to mind and I'm sure there's many more. So if we want to establish a Korean Amateur/International Community to support amateur StarLeagues/ProLeagues we need: + Show Spoiler +
1. Somewhere on the web to congregate/organize.
a. Hopefully TL cause I love this site but maybe we need something special as I wouldn't want koreans to be forced to use English. Is this an actual problem or all in my head?
2. Translators.
a. A bunch if possible.
3. An established way of funding the Leagues.
a. Paypal, kickstarter, crowdfunding, afreeca, twitch/google advertising etc
4. An established way of streaming.
a. Maybe twitch/own3d won't work very well for Koreans?
5. An Organization
a. Probably one with by-laws to establish responsibilities; deal with problems; etc.
b. Right now I'm picturing something entirely community operated. And totally not-for-profit so that all funds go to the League and community. Hopefully entirely volunteers.
I'm actually going into my third semester of Korean, so I can speak a decent amount if that helps.
We need someone to bridge the connection between the two community. So as long as you possess the ability to read and write in Korean, then everything is more or less settled. The Koreans can offer the inner working of their training regime. Foreigners will be able to elevate their plays even further than ICCUP. And from all these events we have seen so far, many of them have already spend fairly good amount of time in preparing for clan wars. This ‘service’ can give the team members just that bit more of advantages. I think there is definitely something that could be done to re-ignite the fizzling spark of the non-korean countries.
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I'd be happy to see something like TSL 1 or 2 again but I suppose that'd require a sponsor.
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BW is alive and well. Take a look under the tournament subforum and check out everything that is happening there. Even today hacklebeast had over 500 viewers in the GC finals...I think this is the best thing people can be doing for scbw (as people are organizing/running/casting foreigner tournaments.)
As far as coordinating with the amateur korean teams dont think you'll have much results there.
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On April 28 2012 13:07 9heart wrote:
BW is alive and well. Take a look under the tournament subforum and check out everything that is happening there. Even today hacklebeast had over 500 viewers in the GC finals...I think this is the best thing people can be doing for scbw (as people are organizing/running/casting foreigner tournaments.)
As far as coordinating with the amateur korean teams dont think you'll have much results there.
You'll improve your play....how is that not getting results?
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On April 28 2012 12:25 BLinD-RawR wrote:why don't we raise money to run something like this again..
How in the hell did I forget about this tourney??? I remember reading about and being absurdly excited to see it but somehow I completely forgot about it between this post and the actual tourney. Thank you for the reminder. I think this would be an awesome first step (or second since this has already happened?). Now I need to go find some VODs and watch this tourney.
On April 28 2012 12:42 Starburst wrote:
I'm actually going into my third semester of Korean, so I can speak a decent amount if that helps.
When it comes to community efforts even the tiniest bit can be a huge help, but what you're offering is actually instrumental to this idea so tyvm sir. :D
On April 28 2012 13:07 9heart wrote:
BW is alive and well. Take a look under the tournament subforum and check out everything that is happening there. Even today hacklebeast had over 500 viewers in the GC finals...I think this is the best thing people can be doing for scbw (as people are organizing/running/casting foreigner tournaments.)
As far as coordinating with the amateur korean teams dont think you'll have much results there.
You're quite right, but I think it would be a really good thing to get the Koreans and the rest of the world together. Can you imagine a Gambit Cup (or something similar) with the by clan participating?? Maybe that's not what people want and if that's the case please post your feelings/concerns.
I'll be updating the OP shortly.
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On April 28 2012 12:55 EchOne wrote:
I'd be happy to see something like TSL 1 or 2 again but I suppose that'd require a sponsor.
You should check out ISL tomorrow then.
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On April 28 2012 12:55 EchOne wrote:
I'd be happy to see something like TSL 1 or 2 again but I suppose that'd require a sponsor.
Like This?
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Updated OP. I would greatly appreciate more feedback. Am I taking this in the right direction?
On April 28 2012 15:13 Game wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 12:55 EchOne wrote:
I'd be happy to see something like TSL 1 or 2 again but I suppose that'd require a sponsor. Like This?
The OP now starts off with a disclaimer so that people don't get the wrong idea. I'm sure EchOne wasn't the only one. My original OP was terrible and confusing. The new one is slightly less so i hope.
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As far as foreign and Korean collaboration, I'm sure a few people who work with me can confirm (without details obviously) that I am in the process of acquiring the funds to do that right now. Not the same as the OP, but along the lines.
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Australia1064 Posts
Before trying to do anything with the Koreans, you have to accept that you're never going to get them off Afreeca entirely. The main reason for this is that the return per viewer on Afreeca, by way of the balloon donation system, is so much greater than that of Twitch or its competitors.
For example, HiyA broadcasts to an average audience of 500-600 people 5-6 nights a week. By the standards of an SC2 or LoL stream on Twitch, this is small potatoes. However, HiyA receives enough donations from this relatively small viewer base to earn a decent living. This is the case for any number of other ex-pro broadcasters who also rarely attract more than 600 viewers but are still able to make streaming Starcraft their full time occupation.
Obviously, there are possible compromises. In the past, Nada has dual broadcasted to Afreeca and Twitch by running Xsplit and the Afreeca Broadcasting software in tandem. This is a decent alternative as it would allow the players to earn something from their foreign audience through Twitch ad revenue without cutting them off from their normal Korean audience. The effort to get something like that set up could potentially be a barrier for entry, as well as actually finding someone to show these guys how to set everything up.
Something that is probably a little bit more straightforward is simply having them come to us. A few hundred thousand won (ie. a few hundred USD) is a normal prize pool for a 1-2 day event featuring all the top ex and semi pro players. For a longer ISL scale event two million won (a bit less than two thousand USD) has been a rough average for the tournaments I've seen in the past six months. Obviously these aren't small amounts of money for just one person to be stumping up but they're not that different to the prize pools that we see in foreign events, so with a mix of sponsorship and donations it might be possible.
The logistics involved in organising a tournament with mainly or all Korean players has a lot of difficulties and not just those related to the language barrier. Simply having the connections to get in contact with the players you want to invite has its potential difficulties, as well as organising a way for the games to be played at a time that is reasonable for both the players and the audience. Replay casts are very uncommon in the Korean amateur tournaments I've seen and keeping the results of games private until the broadcast would be especially difficult given the fact that almost every player streams their FPV during tournament games.
Simply put, it is easily within the power of the existing BW community to put together something worthy of the absolute best that the Korean amateur scene has to offer. The difficulty is in actually making the connection and having them know (and care) that we're here.
+ Show Spoiler [Shield Clan League] +On April 28 2012 10:50 Kergy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 08:34 maltey wrote:
IMO the Korean clans(n.Die, Neo.G, sea, shield, white, by, etc) are going to be the key to keeping extremely high quality BW going if KeSPA completely switches to SC2. (Though I'm still hoping that doesn't happen) Does anyone know what the Korean clans are planning? Shield is already playing SC2. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309945 Shield is still an active BW clan and have run two West clan leagues this year. There are even VODs!
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I'm in. I'll help however I can as long as it doesn't screw with my classes. Nice update, btw. 
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Sweet!
I'd love to help. I'd definitely be willing to donate prize pool money for an event featuring top korean amatuers and/or foreigners!
Also, for a big event I could make a cool teaser/intro video (I'm a 3d artist/animator). Think TSL4 teaser, or something in that vein. I could also help with other types of graphics, if needed.
BW 4 life!
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maltey you are a starter of an amazing cause, great timing man! :D
I like the idea with 10 min delayed stream tournaments and camera to the players and i think our community is big enough to support this, the thing is that we must act together and give full support to it.
My personal opinion is that the first priority is to inform koreans and the world about us and our plans and to start working together, before all the clans switch to sc2 (lol). Anyways im sure there will be the same ideas from Korean bw community and i think they will be better organised, so if we manage to work together we can be real strength! If we let bw proscene to go completely down it will be much harder to rise again so there is no time for delay.
Also i suggest contacting some people like Day9 and other famous bw veterans, i bet they still has bw in their hearts and they can cause great impact on the idea.
Thats my first thoughts, hope its not too dumb and people be sure of one thing WE CAN DO THIS!
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Would love to see more collaboration between us foreigners and the korean amateur scene! Just having some korean streams showing up in the right sidebar would be a step in the right direction!
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Let's try to fix funding:
Poll: How much would you donate for a foreigner run tournament?10$ (18) 49% 20$ (9) 24% 50$+ (9) 24% 50$ (1) 3% 37 total votes Your vote: How much would you donate for a foreigner run tournament? (Vote): 10$
(Vote): 20$
(Vote): 50$
(Vote): 50$+
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I think a really good thing, would be that someone creates an official international ranking system,
Like was Kespa ranking.
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I will be frank here and say that I admire you trying to start up the scene with more projects for funding tournaments like ISL(although they should call it FSL because only foreigners only play in the tournament ) and also Noise ASL .However we must know that broodwar has long gone it's expiry date . Sure some people may pick up the game out of curiosity and than play it and after that drop the game and play other more shiny and more appealing games out there with healthy communities.
Bw is at it's last leg while I am typing this Iccup once a prominent server for foreigners and koreans to enjoy bashing each other with their superior skill is currently at 560 + players in the server . What does that number tell you ? Interest in the game is dwindling and the lack of new blood flowing in the scene is already enough to kill the scene even though one of you guys will keep continue playing the game it's really a futile effort .
The koreans are a well develop e-sport country where playing games actually can benefit you momentarily if you make it big or make it a chance for you to work in one of the respected company that has sponsored you for years . As seen previously in Xellos retirement to become one of CJ work force in the company . Inviting koreans over to compete with us, first what level is the current foreigners right now are we as good as the long standing korean clans like n.die,shield,by and etc ?
If we can't satisfy a simple basics requirements like this to peek interest from the korean communities, the project will fail immediately and if you want a revival for broodwar right now the best chance we ever had was proleague it self .It's the number one source of inspiration out there for all of us broodwar fans, the lightning effects, korean commentators using their WPM to their best, professional broodwar players putting in their soul to the game so we viewers can enjoy it .
If broodwar proleague goes down everything will go down. I know I am being pessimistic over the situation at hand because I fail to see any other lasting communities without there being a professional scene for it . Cs 1.6 is still being played because professional players are still playing the game but the numbers are smaller, Quake 3 is literally dead and no longer is active except Quake Live where pro players are still playing the game . I submit that bw proleague is the very core of our community and it going down is going to make our numbers grow smaller into nothing .
However this isn't the only problem we are facing right now I urge players who are still willing to play broodwar to try out games out there in your respectively country which are growing right now . If Dota 2 is huge in your country than go for it, If Sc2 is having lots of tournament in your designated country you have to play the game and give your shot and making big out of thriving community . My respective views that to grasp the opportunity at hand when there is still available it's actually quite justifiable in the long run we may prefer one game over the other but that's merely our preference .
Until company developers actually stop molesting their franchise with inferior sequels that actually will make us oldies proud .I see there is no end to starcraft 3,4,5,6 and it's expansion to come out the next year and the word e-sports still being used to promote it's product . I am not saying we should give it all up and not support the remaining scene and I don't want to be called some sort of a leech who does nothing but reap the benefit of the resources and enjoyment that the broodwar scene has been giving us all the time .
This is probably one of the few remaining years to actually watch bw at it's glorious level although quite sub par compared to it's previous years if compared and we should enjoy while it still remains .
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On April 29 2012 00:01 Sawamura wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I will be frank here and say that I admire you trying to start up the scene with more projects for funding tournaments like ISL(although they should call it FSL because only foreigners only play in the tournament ) and also Noise ASL .However we must know that broodwar has long gone it's expiry date . Sure some people may pick up the game out of curiosity and than play it and after that drop the game and play other more shiny and more appealing games out there with healthy communities.
Bw is at it's last leg while I am typing this Iccup once a prominent server for foreigners and koreans to enjoy bashing each other with their superior skill is currently at 560 + players in the server . What does that number tell you ? Interest in the game is dwindling and the lack of new blood flowing in the scene is already enough to kill the scene even though one of you guys will keep continue playing the game it's really a futile effort .
The koreans are a well develop e-sport country where playing games actually can benefit you momentarily if you make it big or make it a chance for you to work in one of the respected company that has sponsored you for years . As seen previously in Xellos retirement to become one of CJ work force in the company . Inviting koreans over to compete with us, first what level is the current foreigners right now are we as good as the long standing korean clans like n.die,shield,by and etc ?
If we can't satisfy a simple basics requirements like this to peek interest from the korean communities, the project will fail immediately and if you want a revival for broodwar right now the best chance we ever had was proleague it self .It's the number one source of inspiration out there for all of us broodwar fans, the lightning effects, korean commentators using their WPM to their best, professional broodwar players putting in their soul to the game so we viewers can enjoy it .
If broodwar proleague goes down everything will go down. I know I am being pessimistic over the situation at hand because I fail to see any other lasting communities without there being a professional scene for it . Cs 1.6 is still being played because professional players are still playing the game but the numbers are smaller, Quake 3 is literally dead and no longer is active except Quake Live where pro players are still playing the game . I submit that bw proleague is the very core of our community and it going down is going to make our numbers grow smaller into nothing .
However this isn't the only problem we are facing right now I urge players who are still willing to play broodwar to try out games out there in your respectively country which are growing right now . If Dota 2 is huge in your country than go for it, If Sc2 is having lots of tournament in your designated country you have to play the game and give your shot and making big out of thriving community . My respective views that to grasp the opportunity at hand when there is still available it's actually quite justifiable in the long run we may prefer one game over the other but that's merely our preference .
Until company developers actually stop molesting their franchise with inferior sequels that actually will make us oldies proud .I see there is no end to starcraft 3,4,5,6 and it's expansion to come out the next year and the word e-sports still being used to promote it's product . I am not saying we should give it all up and not support the remaining scene and I don't want to be called some sort of a leech who does nothing but reap the benefit of the resources and enjoyment that the broodwar scene has been giving us all the time .
This is probably one of the few remaining years to actually watch bw at it's glorious level although quite sub par compared to it's previous years if compared and we should enjoy while it still remains .
I don't understand why people care about "esports". Just play the game you love. If you just wanna see esports grow go play LoL. No one is trying revive bw here, but just keep it going as long as possible.
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Some really good ideas here. Personally, I have problems watching twitchtv streams so I might or might not be able to tune in much but I think many other people would be interested in watching Korean ex-pros in a community organized tournament, if it's run & hyped up properly.
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On April 29 2012 00:56 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 00:01 Sawamura wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I will be frank here and say that I admire you trying to start up the scene with more projects for funding tournaments like ISL(although they should call it FSL because only foreigners only play in the tournament ) and also Noise ASL .However we must know that broodwar has long gone it's expiry date . Sure some people may pick up the game out of curiosity and than play it and after that drop the game and play other more shiny and more appealing games out there with healthy communities.
Bw is at it's last leg while I am typing this Iccup once a prominent server for foreigners and koreans to enjoy bashing each other with their superior skill is currently at 560 + players in the server . What does that number tell you ? Interest in the game is dwindling and the lack of new blood flowing in the scene is already enough to kill the scene even though one of you guys will keep continue playing the game it's really a futile effort .
The koreans are a well develop e-sport country where playing games actually can benefit you momentarily if you make it big or make it a chance for you to work in one of the respected company that has sponsored you for years . As seen previously in Xellos retirement to become one of CJ work force in the company . Inviting koreans over to compete with us, first what level is the current foreigners right now are we as good as the long standing korean clans like n.die,shield,by and etc ?
If we can't satisfy a simple basics requirements like this to peek interest from the korean communities, the project will fail immediately and if you want a revival for broodwar right now the best chance we ever had was proleague it self .It's the number one source of inspiration out there for all of us broodwar fans, the lightning effects, korean commentators using their WPM to their best, professional broodwar players putting in their soul to the game so we viewers can enjoy it .
If broodwar proleague goes down everything will go down. I know I am being pessimistic over the situation at hand because I fail to see any other lasting communities without there being a professional scene for it . Cs 1.6 is still being played because professional players are still playing the game but the numbers are smaller, Quake 3 is literally dead and no longer is active except Quake Live where pro players are still playing the game . I submit that bw proleague is the very core of our community and it going down is going to make our numbers grow smaller into nothing .
However this isn't the only problem we are facing right now I urge players who are still willing to play broodwar to try out games out there in your respectively country which are growing right now . If Dota 2 is huge in your country than go for it, If Sc2 is having lots of tournament in your designated country you have to play the game and give your shot and making big out of thriving community . My respective views that to grasp the opportunity at hand when there is still available it's actually quite justifiable in the long run we may prefer one game over the other but that's merely our preference .
Until company developers actually stop molesting their franchise with inferior sequels that actually will make us oldies proud .I see there is no end to starcraft 3,4,5,6 and it's expansion to come out the next year and the word e-sports still being used to promote it's product . I am not saying we should give it all up and not support the remaining scene and I don't want to be called some sort of a leech who does nothing but reap the benefit of the resources and enjoyment that the broodwar scene has been giving us all the time .
This is probably one of the few remaining years to actually watch bw at it's glorious level although quite sub par compared to it's previous years if compared and we should enjoy while it still remains . I don't understand why people care about "esports". Just play the game you love. If you just wanna see esports grow go play LoL. No one is trying revive bw here, but just keep it going as long as possible.
No where did I state about reviving bw in my statement...
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On April 29 2012 01:03 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 00:56 L3gendary wrote:On April 29 2012 00:01 Sawamura wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I will be frank here and say that I admire you trying to start up the scene with more projects for funding tournaments like ISL(although they should call it FSL because only foreigners only play in the tournament ) and also Noise ASL .However we must know that broodwar has long gone it's expiry date . Sure some people may pick up the game out of curiosity and than play it and after that drop the game and play other more shiny and more appealing games out there with healthy communities.
Bw is at it's last leg while I am typing this Iccup once a prominent server for foreigners and koreans to enjoy bashing each other with their superior skill is currently at 560 + players in the server . What does that number tell you ? Interest in the game is dwindling and the lack of new blood flowing in the scene is already enough to kill the scene even though one of you guys will keep continue playing the game it's really a futile effort .
The koreans are a well develop e-sport country where playing games actually can benefit you momentarily if you make it big or make it a chance for you to work in one of the respected company that has sponsored you for years . As seen previously in Xellos retirement to become one of CJ work force in the company . Inviting koreans over to compete with us, first what level is the current foreigners right now are we as good as the long standing korean clans like n.die,shield,by and etc ?
If we can't satisfy a simple basics requirements like this to peek interest from the korean communities, the project will fail immediately and if you want a revival for broodwar right now the best chance we ever had was proleague it self .It's the number one source of inspiration out there for all of us broodwar fans, the lightning effects, korean commentators using their WPM to their best, professional broodwar players putting in their soul to the game so we viewers can enjoy it .
If broodwar proleague goes down everything will go down. I know I am being pessimistic over the situation at hand because I fail to see any other lasting communities without there being a professional scene for it . Cs 1.6 is still being played because professional players are still playing the game but the numbers are smaller, Quake 3 is literally dead and no longer is active except Quake Live where pro players are still playing the game . I submit that bw proleague is the very core of our community and it going down is going to make our numbers grow smaller into nothing .
However this isn't the only problem we are facing right now I urge players who are still willing to play broodwar to try out games out there in your respectively country which are growing right now . If Dota 2 is huge in your country than go for it, If Sc2 is having lots of tournament in your designated country you have to play the game and give your shot and making big out of thriving community . My respective views that to grasp the opportunity at hand when there is still available it's actually quite justifiable in the long run we may prefer one game over the other but that's merely our preference .
Until company developers actually stop molesting their franchise with inferior sequels that actually will make us oldies proud .I see there is no end to starcraft 3,4,5,6 and it's expansion to come out the next year and the word e-sports still being used to promote it's product . I am not saying we should give it all up and not support the remaining scene and I don't want to be called some sort of a leech who does nothing but reap the benefit of the resources and enjoyment that the broodwar scene has been giving us all the time .
This is probably one of the few remaining years to actually watch bw at it's glorious level although quite sub par compared to it's previous years if compared and we should enjoy while it still remains . I don't understand why people care about "esports". Just play the game you love. If you just wanna see esports grow go play LoL. No one is trying revive bw here, but just keep it going as long as possible. No where did I state about reviving bw in my statement...
On April 29 2012 00:01 Sawamura wrote:
the project will fail immediately and if you want a revival for broodwar right now the best chance we ever had was proleague it self.
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On April 29 2012 01:11 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 01:03 Sawamura wrote:On April 29 2012 00:56 L3gendary wrote:On April 29 2012 00:01 Sawamura wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I will be frank here and say that I admire you trying to start up the scene with more projects for funding tournaments like ISL(although they should call it FSL because only foreigners only play in the tournament ) and also Noise ASL .However we must know that broodwar has long gone it's expiry date . Sure some people may pick up the game out of curiosity and than play it and after that drop the game and play other more shiny and more appealing games out there with healthy communities.
Bw is at it's last leg while I am typing this Iccup once a prominent server for foreigners and koreans to enjoy bashing each other with their superior skill is currently at 560 + players in the server . What does that number tell you ? Interest in the game is dwindling and the lack of new blood flowing in the scene is already enough to kill the scene even though one of you guys will keep continue playing the game it's really a futile effort .
The koreans are a well develop e-sport country where playing games actually can benefit you momentarily if you make it big or make it a chance for you to work in one of the respected company that has sponsored you for years . As seen previously in Xellos retirement to become one of CJ work force in the company . Inviting koreans over to compete with us, first what level is the current foreigners right now are we as good as the long standing korean clans like n.die,shield,by and etc ?
If we can't satisfy a simple basics requirements like this to peek interest from the korean communities, the project will fail immediately and if you want a revival for broodwar right now the best chance we ever had was proleague it self .It's the number one source of inspiration out there for all of us broodwar fans, the lightning effects, korean commentators using their WPM to their best, professional broodwar players putting in their soul to the game so we viewers can enjoy it .
If broodwar proleague goes down everything will go down. I know I am being pessimistic over the situation at hand because I fail to see any other lasting communities without there being a professional scene for it . Cs 1.6 is still being played because professional players are still playing the game but the numbers are smaller, Quake 3 is literally dead and no longer is active except Quake Live where pro players are still playing the game . I submit that bw proleague is the very core of our community and it going down is going to make our numbers grow smaller into nothing .
However this isn't the only problem we are facing right now I urge players who are still willing to play broodwar to try out games out there in your respectively country which are growing right now . If Dota 2 is huge in your country than go for it, If Sc2 is having lots of tournament in your designated country you have to play the game and give your shot and making big out of thriving community . My respective views that to grasp the opportunity at hand when there is still available it's actually quite justifiable in the long run we may prefer one game over the other but that's merely our preference .
Until company developers actually stop molesting their franchise with inferior sequels that actually will make us oldies proud .I see there is no end to starcraft 3,4,5,6 and it's expansion to come out the next year and the word e-sports still being used to promote it's product . I am not saying we should give it all up and not support the remaining scene and I don't want to be called some sort of a leech who does nothing but reap the benefit of the resources and enjoyment that the broodwar scene has been giving us all the time .
This is probably one of the few remaining years to actually watch bw at it's glorious level although quite sub par compared to it's previous years if compared and we should enjoy while it still remains . I don't understand why people care about "esports". Just play the game you love. If you just wanna see esports grow go play LoL. No one is trying revive bw here, but just keep it going as long as possible. No where did I state about reviving bw in my statement... Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 00:01 Sawamura wrote:
the project will fail immediately and if you want a revival for broodwar right now the best chance we ever had was proleague it self.
Reviving broodwar and e-sports are two different things . If you read the whole passage in context you would have understand what I meant right there and if you kept up with current event bw revival is already impossible when there is not enough interest in it and also bw coaches on sc2 interview have already gave a view on it that bw had a chance to be big if kespa actually did a world tour during it's popularity.
Also I don't see the point of you nit picking my words about bw revival I was merely suggesting "If you want a bw revival " not aggressively pointing there "should be a bw revival" .
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Pro BW might die but the amateur scene can still thrive. There's still a very vibrant amateur scene in Korea.
The biggest obstacles in uniting the BW communities (Korean and international) are the stupid IP restrictions and KSSN requirements on Korean websites. 
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On April 29 2012 01:17 Sawamura wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 29 2012 01:11 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 01:03 Sawamura wrote:On April 29 2012 00:56 L3gendary wrote:On April 29 2012 00:01 Sawamura wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I will be frank here and say that I admire you trying to start up the scene with more projects for funding tournaments like ISL(although they should call it FSL because only foreigners only play in the tournament ) and also Noise ASL .However we must know that broodwar has long gone it's expiry date . Sure some people may pick up the game out of curiosity and than play it and after that drop the game and play other more shiny and more appealing games out there with healthy communities.
Bw is at it's last leg while I am typing this Iccup once a prominent server for foreigners and koreans to enjoy bashing each other with their superior skill is currently at 560 + players in the server . What does that number tell you ? Interest in the game is dwindling and the lack of new blood flowing in the scene is already enough to kill the scene even though one of you guys will keep continue playing the game it's really a futile effort .
The koreans are a well develop e-sport country where playing games actually can benefit you momentarily if you make it big or make it a chance for you to work in one of the respected company that has sponsored you for years . As seen previously in Xellos retirement to become one of CJ work force in the company . Inviting koreans over to compete with us, first what level is the current foreigners right now are we as good as the long standing korean clans like n.die,shield,by and etc ?
If we can't satisfy a simple basics requirements like this to peek interest from the korean communities, the project will fail immediately and if you want a revival for broodwar right now the best chance we ever had was proleague it self .It's the number one source of inspiration out there for all of us broodwar fans, the lightning effects, korean commentators using their WPM to their best, professional broodwar players putting in their soul to the game so we viewers can enjoy it .
If broodwar proleague goes down everything will go down. I know I am being pessimistic over the situation at hand because I fail to see any other lasting communities without there being a professional scene for it . Cs 1.6 is still being played because professional players are still playing the game but the numbers are smaller, Quake 3 is literally dead and no longer is active except Quake Live where pro players are still playing the game . I submit that bw proleague is the very core of our community and it going down is going to make our numbers grow smaller into nothing .
However this isn't the only problem we are facing right now I urge players who are still willing to play broodwar to try out games out there in your respectively country which are growing right now . If Dota 2 is huge in your country than go for it, If Sc2 is having lots of tournament in your designated country you have to play the game and give your shot and making big out of thriving community . My respective views that to grasp the opportunity at hand when there is still available it's actually quite justifiable in the long run we may prefer one game over the other but that's merely our preference .
Until company developers actually stop molesting their franchise with inferior sequels that actually will make us oldies proud .I see there is no end to starcraft 3,4,5,6 and it's expansion to come out the next year and the word e-sports still being used to promote it's product . I am not saying we should give it all up and not support the remaining scene and I don't want to be called some sort of a leech who does nothing but reap the benefit of the resources and enjoyment that the broodwar scene has been giving us all the time .
This is probably one of the few remaining years to actually watch bw at it's glorious level although quite sub par compared to it's previous years if compared and we should enjoy while it still remains . I don't understand why people care about "esports". Just play the game you love. If you just wanna see esports grow go play LoL. No one is trying revive bw here, but just keep it going as long as possible. No where did I state about reviving bw in my statement... Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 00:01 Sawamura wrote:
the project will fail immediately and if you want a revival for broodwar right now the best chance we ever had was proleague it self.
Reviving broodwar and e-sports are two different things . If you read the whole passage in context you would have understand what I meant right there and if you kept up with current event bw revival is already impossible when there is not enough interest in it and also bw coaches on sc2 interview have already gave a view on it that bw had a chance to be big if kespa actually did a world tour during it's popularity. Also I don't see the point of you nit picking my words about bw revival I was merely suggesting "If you want a bw revival " not aggressively pointing there "should be a bw revival" .
You implied that a bw revival was impossible and shouldn't be attempted. I didn't disagree with that but said that no one is trying to revive bw with this initiative only keep it going at some level. Does that make sense?
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On April 29 2012 01:30 L3gendary wrote:
You implied that a bw revival was impossible and shouldn't be attempted. I didn't disagree with that but said that no one is trying to revive bw with this initiative only keep it going at some level. Does that make sense?
I don't have a problem with the scene trying to extends it's life span on " some level " . So what's the point in having this discussion in the first place ?
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On April 29 2012 01:33 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 01:30 L3gendary wrote:
You implied that a bw revival was impossible and shouldn't be attempted. I didn't disagree with that but said that no one is trying to revive bw with this initiative only keep it going at some level. Does that make sense? I don't have a problem with the scene trying to extends it's life span on " some level " . So what's the point in having this discussion in the first place ?
Except you wrote a giant post telling everyone the game is done for without the pro community and we should just play other games like sc2/dota2.
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E-penis clash between l3gendary and Sawamura.....
Honestly clash of ideas over even basic things is why this entire idea won't work in the long run.
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Korea (South)11570 Posts
I can most likely get some top korean guilds / top amateurs participate.
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On April 29 2012 01:39 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 01:33 Sawamura wrote:On April 29 2012 01:30 L3gendary wrote:
You implied that a bw revival was impossible and shouldn't be attempted. I didn't disagree with that but said that no one is trying to revive bw with this initiative only keep it going at some level. Does that make sense? I don't have a problem with the scene trying to extends it's life span on " some level " . So what's the point in having this discussion in the first place ? Except you wrote a giant post telling everyone the game is done for without the pro community and we should just play other games like sc2/dota2.
Maybe I should be specific about that part of the explanation as I mention earlier about the statement it is really my opinion that any pro scene is the life support of a favourite community . Also I should have been specific about playing other games while the opportunities exist and just take this for an example in malaysia . Sc2 isn't really big, go to any LAN shop and you will be seeing kids playing dota and more dota . Basing on that my reasonable conclusion that dota has a better competitive scene even though you compared it to other games out there right now however locally speaking in your country you got a better shot at making a pro by playing dota than playing your "favourite" game .
Which is totally irrelevant with the topic at hand here and it's also my dumb mistake to include my opinions here and not staying on topic at hand.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49629 Posts
On April 29 2012 01:45 CaucasianAsian wrote:
I can most likely get some top korean guilds / top amateurs participate.
wow dat some pull bro
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Korea (South)11570 Posts
Just let me know the details, and I can help organize / talk with the teams/players.
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On April 29 2012 01:46 Sawamura wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 29 2012 01:39 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 01:33 Sawamura wrote:On April 29 2012 01:30 L3gendary wrote:
You implied that a bw revival was impossible and shouldn't be attempted. I didn't disagree with that but said that no one is trying to revive bw with this initiative only keep it going at some level. Does that make sense? I don't have a problem with the scene trying to extends it's life span on " some level " . So what's the point in having this discussion in the first place ? Except you wrote a giant post telling everyone the game is done for without the pro community and we should just play other games like sc2/dota2. Maybe I should be specific about that part of the explanation as I mention earlier about the statement it is really my opinion that any pro scene is the life support of a favourite community . Also I should have been specific about playing other games while the opportunities exist and just take this for an example in malaysia . Sc2 isn't really big, go to any LAN shop and you will be seeing kids playing dota and more dota . Basing on that my reasonable conclusion that dota has a better competitive scene even though you compared it to other games out there right now however locally speaking in your country you got a better shot at making a pro by playing dota than playing your "favourite" game . Which is totally irrelevant with the topic at hand here and it's also my dumb mistake to include my opinions here and not staying on topic at hand.
Well no doubt, and that's been true for quite some time now. Personally, I'm not 15 anymore and don't have dreams of "going pro" but I can see why a lot of competitive minded people would want to play a game for that reason. Anyway, I don't think we have a big disagreement here, let's just not pollute this thread any longer and keep it to pm if you want to continue the discussion.
On April 29 2012 01:45 CaucasianAsian wrote:
I can most likely get some top korean guilds / top amateurs participate.
That would awesome!
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United Kingdom1667 Posts
Sawamura, I would like to respectfully disagree with you. I think that BW can continue to succeed as a strong, albeit very niche scene. And I'm a pessimist, not given to flights of fancy or wild imaginings- I really do think that we can do just fine in our own capacity.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49629 Posts
On April 29 2012 01:56 ImbaTosS wrote:
Sawamura, I would like to respectfully disagree with you. I think that BW can continue to succeed as a strong, albeit very niche scene. And I'm a pessimist, not given to flights of fancy or wild imaginings- I really do think that we can do just fine in our own capacity.
I prefer if it remained small and strong, sure we'll miss the limelight but really the entire point of the game is to enjoy it.
On April 29 2012 01:51 CaucasianAsian wrote:
Just let me know the details, and I can help organize / talk with the teams/players.
huddle up guys, we need to work some stuff out.
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On April 29 2012 00:01 Sawamura wrote:
I will be frank here and say that I admire you trying to start up the scene with more projects for funding tournaments like ISL(although they should call it FSL because only foreigners only play in the tournament ) and also Noise ASL .However we must know that broodwar has long gone it's expiry date . Sure some people may pick up the game out of curiosity and than play it and after that drop the game and play other more shiny and more appealing games out there with healthy communities.
Thank you very much for your feedback. I completely agree with the last sentence which is why I have the Add Features section in the OP. I thought it might be asking too much but maybe one of BW's fans is a programmer and would be willing to add a little shininess to our beloved game. It could use a resolution boost but the art in BW has no expiration date. Its gorgeous and its classically done IMO.
On April 29 2012 00:01 Sawamura wrote:Bw is at it's last leg while I am typing this Iccup once a prominent server for foreigners and koreans to enjoy bashing each other with their superior skill is currently at 560 + players in the server . What does that number tell you ? Interest in the game is dwindling and the lack of new blood flowing in the scene is already enough to kill the scene even though one of you guys will keep continue playing the game it's really a futile effort .
The dwindling numbers at Iccup are very sad, but not necessarily permament. One of the communities that inspired me to do this is the Age of Empires 2 community. For those that don't know, they are making their own expansion to the game, using streaming of pro play, showmatches, and even a show called "State of the Empires" to revitalize a game that had absolutely nothing except some nostagiac value. The went from nothing to something with just a little passion for their game, I think this community has a little passion for their game. 
On April 29 2012 00:01 Sawamura wrote:
The koreans are a well develop e-sport country where playing games actually can benefit you momentarily if you make it big or make it a chance for you to work in one of the respected company that has sponsored you for years . As seen previously in Xellos retirement to become one of CJ work force in the company . Inviting koreans over to compete with us, first what level is the current foreigners right now are we as good as the long standing korean clans like n.die,shield,by and etc ?
We'll great crushed for certain. But did you see the Super Clan League? The foreigners playing was exciting as hell, I just watched it last night. We can have that again for as low as 200 bucks.
In addition, part of what this is all about is bridging the two communities. If we can do that, (highly improbable, I know TT) foreigners can finally have some access to the wealth of BW knowledge in Korea.
On April 29 2012 00:01 Sawamura wrote:If we can't satisfy a simple basics requirements like this to peek interest from the korean communities, the project will fail immediately and if you want a revival for broodwar right now the best chance we ever had was proleague it self .It's the number one source of inspiration out there for all of us broodwar fans, the lightning effects, korean commentators using their WPM to their best, professional broodwar players putting in their soul to the game so we viewers can enjoy it.
However this isn't the only problem we are facing right now I urge players who are still willing to play broodwar to try out games out there in your respectively country which are growing right now . If Dota 2 is huge in your country than go for it, If Sc2 is having lots of tournament in your designated country you have to play the game and give your shot and making big out of thriving community . My respective views that to grasp the opportunity at hand when there is still available it's actually quite justifiable in the long run we may prefer one game over the other but that's merely our preference .
Until company developers actually stop molesting their franchise with inferior sequels that actually will make us oldies proud .I see there is no end to starcraft 3,4,5,6 and it's expansion to come out the next year and the word e-sports still being used to promote it's product . I am not saying we should give it all up and not support the remaining scene and I don't want to be called some sort of a leech who does nothing but reap the benefit of the resources and enjoyment that the broodwar scene has been giving us all the time .
This is probably one of the few remaining years to actually watch bw at it's glorious level although quite sub par compared to it's previous years if compared and we should enjoy while it still remains .
I agree that BW Proleague is a linchpin in our community. This is actually why I started this thread. If it was going down, I wanted to replace it with the next best thing. The Korean clans. And to possibly start rebuilding from the ashes.
Let's all enjoy what we have left.
Thanks again for the prescient feedback.
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On April 29 2012 01:51 CaucasianAsian wrote:
Just let me know the details, and I can help organize / talk with the teams/players.
You speak Korean? I'm going to make a list a those who have offered their services in the OP and what they can do so that people who come to this thread have an idea of where we're at.
@BLinD-RawR Small and strong sounds like a very realistic goal to me. I like that.
Edit:
@Starburst quuad I have added your offers to the OP as well. Thanks very much.
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Korea (South)11570 Posts
I speak conversational Korean, I'm still learning, but i'm friends / practice with some top amateurs who would be willing to play in a global tournament (I dislike the idea of having this foreigner / korean divide that we have today. We need to get rid of it all together).
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On April 29 2012 02:21 CaucasianAsian wrote:
I speak conversational Korean, I'm still learning, but i'm friends / practice with some top amateurs who would be willing to play in a global tournament (I dislike the idea of having this foreigner / korean divide that we have today. We need to get rid of it all together).
Oh perfect! Thank you sir.
If you get a chance, perhaps you can get their opinion on what they and the Korean Community would prefer? Super Clan League style? ISL type style?
@Starburst You mentioned actually going to SK? What exactly are your connections?
@everyone else We have a pretty good foot in the door now. Thanks to our translators. I guess I'll go ahead with getting the Kickstarter details figured out and if that looks good along with CaucasianAsian coordinating we'll start getting dates set! 
EDIT: And as far as kickstarter goes we need to figure out what people want:
What conditions does the community want on the kickstarter?
Maybe they'd prefer someone besides me running it? (I'm all for less responsibility )
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On April 29 2012 02:34 maltey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 02:21 CaucasianAsian wrote:
I speak conversational Korean, I'm still learning, but i'm friends / practice with some top amateurs who would be willing to play in a global tournament (I dislike the idea of having this foreigner / korean divide that we have today. We need to get rid of it all together). Oh perfect! Thank you sir. If you get a chance, perhaps you can get their opinion on what they and the Korean Community would prefer? Super Clan League style? ISL type style? @Starburst You mentioned actually going to SK? What exactly are your connections? @everyone else We have a pretty good foot in the door now. Thanks to our translators. I guess I'll go ahead with getting the Kickstarter details figured out and if that looks good along with CaucasianAsian coordinating we'll start getting dates set! EDIT: And as far as kickstarter goes we need to figure out what people want: What conditions does the community want on the kickstarter? Maybe they'd prefer someone besides me running it? (I'm all for less responsibility )
There was already a clan battle before where a foreign all-star team was invited to play.
At this moment, I think an individual league is better than a team-style play, because if people can get a good connection with some amateur teams in Korea, they will destroy a lot of foreign teams today (they're pretty good. And by that, they're pretty damn good). It's better to spotlight those who do well individually, then we work from there (similar to how BW leagues actually started out).
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49629 Posts
On April 29 2012 02:38 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 02:34 maltey wrote:On April 29 2012 02:21 CaucasianAsian wrote:
I speak conversational Korean, I'm still learning, but i'm friends / practice with some top amateurs who would be willing to play in a global tournament (I dislike the idea of having this foreigner / korean divide that we have today. We need to get rid of it all together). Oh perfect! Thank you sir. If you get a chance, perhaps you can get their opinion on what they and the Korean Community would prefer? Super Clan League style? ISL type style? @Starburst You mentioned actually going to SK? What exactly are your connections? @everyone else We have a pretty good foot in the door now. Thanks to our translators. I guess I'll go ahead with getting the Kickstarter details figured out and if that looks good along with CaucasianAsian coordinating we'll start getting dates set! EDIT: And as far as kickstarter goes we need to figure out what people want: What conditions does the community want on the kickstarter? Maybe they'd prefer someone besides me running it? (I'm all for less responsibility ) There was already a clan battle before where a foreign all-star team was invited to play. At this moment, I think an individual league is better than a team-style play, because if people can get a good connection with some amateur teams in Korea, they will destroy a lot of foreign teams today (they're pretty good. And by that, they're pretty damn good). It's better to spotlight those who do well individually, then we work from there (similar to how BW leagues actually started out).
I was thinking individual league too, so that we can familiarize with the players and what not.
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My name is eeniebear and I support this thread.
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We have plenty of tournaments and they aren't very good. What we need are players. More activity on the iCCup server or where ever the community is going to be. Number 1 on the list is making it easier to get games, or basically making it so people don't have to go through the process of port forwarding which can be tedious and unreliable depending on your set up.
If we have more players, the level of competition will rise and the tournaments might be worth watching / the scene in general might be more interesting.
It would be cool if iCCup implemented some kind of elo ranking system instead of their 3 month ladders, since one of the biggest complaints of new players is that all they old players destroy D rank competition without really having the motivation to achieve their true ranks (given that you have to play so many games just to get there).
so basically iCCup or where ever we're going to be is what needs improvement, not the tournaments. Throwing a few dumb cash prizes isn't going to make things better. That time and effort is better put to use making a server which hasn't changed in years better and more interactive.
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Canada11303 Posts
Adding Game Features
Making the game more accessible and enjoyable in general. MoC's Chaos Plugins were amazing but we need to take up the torch i think.
In regards to this, the single best thing would be to somehow fix the hosting problems and all those sorts of problems. Probably not feasable as you'd probably need the ability to mod BW. But there winds up being too many technical things to learn before many can play BW. Do this to fix the colour problems, learn how to portfoward to be able to host and even then apparently some can't host. Rather than, install BW, install iCCup or equivalent, play. For the really motivated, this is no trouble, but sets a technical hurdle for the neophyte right at the very beginning.
Edit.
Oh. Chef just said this...
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Korea (South)11570 Posts
On April 29 2012 02:58 Chef wrote:
We have plenty of tournaments and they aren't very good. What we need are players. More activity on the iCCup server or where ever the community is going to be. Number 1 on the list is making it easier to get games, or basically making it so people don't have to go through the process of port forwarding which can be tedious and unreliable depending on your set up.
If we have more players, the level of competition will rise and the tournaments might be worth watching / the scene in general might be more interesting.
It would be cool if iCCup implemented some kind of elo ranking system instead of their 3 month ladders, since one of the biggest complaints of new players is that all they old players destroy D rank competition without really having the motivation to achieve their true ranks (given that you have to play so many games just to get there).
so basically iCCup or where ever we're going to be is what needs improvement, not the tournaments. Throwing a few dumb cash prizes isn't going to make things better. That time and effort is better put to use making a server which hasn't changed in years better and more interactive.
No one plays iccup because the skill level is bad, not the server. People go where there is competition and iccup just doesn't have it for the skilled players. Fish and BrainClan and west have the skill, so that's where people go. I don't think iccup is going to last in the next few years.
I think what will combine the scenes the most is a foreign site on Fishbattle.net There needs to be a way for foreigners to enter the korean scene which is incredibly difficult. Bringing Koreans to the foreign scene just isn't going to happen. They have no incentive, but we have all the reasons to get into the korean scene.
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This is a really ambitious project, mad props for suggesting/organizing it.
I have basically no money, but I would still spend what I have to try and support just about all of these ideas.
TL is one of the most competent communities of people I've ever seen, so if anyone can make it happen, we can.
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I can speak and read Korean decently, though I have absolutely no knowledge of Korean amateur scene (or that of foreigners). Also I do not have much access to personal computer so can't even join BW actually... I guess I'll stick to routine translations when the break starts =/
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On April 29 2012 02:58 Chef wrote:
We have plenty of tournaments and they aren't very good. What we need are players. More activity on the iCCup server or where ever the community is going to be. Number 1 on the list is making it easier to get games, or basically making it so people don't have to go through the process of port forwarding which can be tedious and unreliable depending on your set up.
If we have more players, the level of competition will rise and the tournaments might be worth watching / the scene in general might be more interesting.
It would be cool if iCCup implemented some kind of elo ranking system instead of their 3 month ladders, since one of the biggest complaints of new players is that all they old players destroy D rank competition without really having the motivation to achieve their true ranks (given that you have to play so many games just to get there).
so basically iCCup or where ever we're going to be is what needs improvement, not the tournaments. Throwing a few dumb cash prizes isn't going to make things better. That time and effort is better put to use making a server which hasn't changed in years better and more interactive.
People tried that. It failed miserably and rotted from the inside via corruption. I mean people literally spent over a year, and some 2, trying to do that. I also don't appreciate you calling my efforts shitty.
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Ok excellent.
@SNM/BLinD-RawR
Thanks for the input. That sounds good to me. In which case it will have to be very much coordinated with game as it sounds like he has some projects he's working on as well.
@Chef/Falling
Thank you both for the input. I still believe having a Korean/Foreigner tourney would be a good idea as it helps bring together the two scenes. These two ideas can work in tandem.
And I disagree with chef that the tourneys aren't very good. They are awesome to watch.
You're right though I haven't put enough emphasis on improving the game itself and Iccup.
So here's my list of features critical to the success of BW:
1. Automatic Port Forwarding
2. Plugin to fix W7 Color Problem
3. ELO Ranking on ICCUP (Keep letter ranks and seasons, just have a lifetime ELO rank attached so noobs can dodge?)
4. Enhance Resolution Plugin (Force AA/Image sharpening maybe as some GPU's don't do this)
5. Android Apps that link to ICCUP (like the awesome Fish server chat app)
Any other ideas?
EDIT:
@Game @CaucasianAsian
Ok I guess my list can apply to Fish/Brain Server?
Maybe our translators can start there? So should we apply efforts to getting English Fish site?
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On April 29 2012 03:39 maltey wrote:
Ok excellent.
@SNM/BLinD-RawR
Thanks for the input. That sounds good to me. In which case it will have to be very much coordinated with game as it sounds like he has some projects he's working on as well.
@Chef/Falling
Thank you both for the input. I still believe having a Korean/Foreigner tourney would be a good idea as it helps bring together the two scenes. These two ideas can work in tandem.
And I disagree with chef that the tourneys aren't very good. They are awesome to watch.
You're right though I haven't put enough emphasis on improving the game itself and Iccup.
So here's my list of features critical to the success of BW:
1. Automatic Port Forwarding
2. Plugin to fix W7 Color Problem
3. ELO Ranking on ICCUP (Keep letter ranks and seasons, just have a lifetime ELO rank attached so noobs can dodge?)
4. Enhance Resolution Plugin (Force AA/Image sharpening maybe as some GPU's don't do this)
5. Android Apps that link to ICCUP (like the awesome Fish server chat app)
Any other ideas?
EDIT:
@Game @CaucasianAsian
Ok I guess my list can apply to Fish/Brain Server?
Maybe our translators can start there? So should we apply efforts to getting English Fish site?
Ehh not sure how many people from Fish want to collaborate because they did ban foreign IP (or was it brain?) due to massive amounts of cheating (brain is dead btw, Fish killed it). Also if anything, the people running the server aren't as bad as iCCup, but some of them are still childish (there was an incident where the person running the server just completely shutdown Fish because there was internal fight... problem was resolved under a day, but yeah).
Also just because you don't like one person doesn't mean that his efforts to make something better become complete shit, heads up.
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United Kingdom1667 Posts
It might be worth calling some more attention to this. The title is confusing, but a good point is raised by the OP. This topic
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On April 29 2012 03:47 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 03:39 maltey wrote:
Ok excellent.
@SNM/BLinD-RawR
Thanks for the input. That sounds good to me. In which case it will have to be very much coordinated with game as it sounds like he has some projects he's working on as well.
@Chef/Falling
Thank you both for the input. I still believe having a Korean/Foreigner tourney would be a good idea as it helps bring together the two scenes. These two ideas can work in tandem.
And I disagree with chef that the tourneys aren't very good. They are awesome to watch.
You're right though I haven't put enough emphasis on improving the game itself and Iccup.
So here's my list of features critical to the success of BW:
1. Automatic Port Forwarding
2. Plugin to fix W7 Color Problem
3. ELO Ranking on ICCUP (Keep letter ranks and seasons, just have a lifetime ELO rank attached so noobs can dodge?)
4. Enhance Resolution Plugin (Force AA/Image sharpening maybe as some GPU's don't do this)
5. Android Apps that link to ICCUP (like the awesome Fish server chat app)
Any other ideas?
EDIT:
@Game @CaucasianAsian
Ok I guess my list can apply to Fish/Brain Server?
Maybe our translators can start there? So should we apply efforts to getting English Fish site? Ehh not sure how many people from Fish want to collaborate because they did ban foreign IP (or was it brain?) due to massive amounts of cheating (brain is dead btw, Fish killed it). Also if anything, the people running the server aren't as bad as iCCup, but some of them are still childish (there was an incident where the person running the server just completely shutdown Fish because there was internal fight... problem was resolved under a day, but yeah). Also just because you don't like one person doesn't mean that his efforts to make something better become complete shit, heads up.
Whoopsie daisies! I hope I didn't come across as disliking someone. I'm just trying to get a consensus on what people think should happen as I don't think this will succeed unless the community is behind it.
Also, I thought CA's idea of an English FishBattle.net sounded like a step towards uniting the scenes. But as I'm a revolting noobie I play almost always on ICCUP so I'm very open to either direction.
It sounds like we'll have server drama either way we go.
EDIT:
On April 29 2012 03:56 ImbaTosS wrote:It might be worth calling some more attention to this. The title is confusing, but a good point is raised by the OP. This topic
Added to OP. ty
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Bisutopia19184 Posts
I will contribute as a:
1. Programmer - I'm an experienced video game developer I'm sure I can help
2. Caster - I shoutcasted tournaments in Orlando and Gaineville Fl. Just haven't had time to do quality stuff for TL
3. Sponsor - I am more then willing to sponsor tournaments when my budget permits.
Basically, pm me when I need to be involved otherwise I'll be forgetful since I already am so caught up with all that is happening in the SC world.
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On April 29 2012 03:59 maltey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 03:47 supernovamaniac wrote:On April 29 2012 03:39 maltey wrote:
Ok excellent.
@SNM/BLinD-RawR
Thanks for the input. That sounds good to me. In which case it will have to be very much coordinated with game as it sounds like he has some projects he's working on as well.
@Chef/Falling
Thank you both for the input. I still believe having a Korean/Foreigner tourney would be a good idea as it helps bring together the two scenes. These two ideas can work in tandem.
And I disagree with chef that the tourneys aren't very good. They are awesome to watch.
You're right though I haven't put enough emphasis on improving the game itself and Iccup.
So here's my list of features critical to the success of BW:
1. Automatic Port Forwarding
2. Plugin to fix W7 Color Problem
3. ELO Ranking on ICCUP (Keep letter ranks and seasons, just have a lifetime ELO rank attached so noobs can dodge?)
4. Enhance Resolution Plugin (Force AA/Image sharpening maybe as some GPU's don't do this)
5. Android Apps that link to ICCUP (like the awesome Fish server chat app)
Any other ideas?
EDIT:
@Game @CaucasianAsian
Ok I guess my list can apply to Fish/Brain Server?
Maybe our translators can start there? So should we apply efforts to getting English Fish site? Ehh not sure how many people from Fish want to collaborate because they did ban foreign IP (or was it brain?) due to massive amounts of cheating (brain is dead btw, Fish killed it). Also if anything, the people running the server aren't as bad as iCCup, but some of them are still childish (there was an incident where the person running the server just completely shutdown Fish because there was internal fight... problem was resolved under a day, but yeah). Also just because you don't like one person doesn't mean that his efforts to make something better become complete shit, heads up. Whoopsie daisies! I hope I didn't come across as disliking someone. I'm just trying to get a consensus on what people think should happen as I don't think this will succeed unless the community is behind it. Also, I thought CA's idea of an English FishBattle.net sounded like a step towards uniting the scenes. But as I'm a revolting noobie I play almost always on ICCUP so I'm very open to either direction. It sounds like we'll have server drama either way we go. EDIT: Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 03:56 ImbaTosS wrote:It might be worth calling some more attention to this. The title is confusing, but a good point is raised by the OP. This topic Added to OP. ty
I wasn't pointing at your responses, I was just giving heads up to some people who were trying to downplay some of the efforts of some people in this community (read everything and you might find what I'm talking about)
English Fishbnet is a good idea, and it will allow players to play on one of the most reliable servers out there. However, the problem is that when iCCup players try to play on fish, they will get destroyed (to some extent) and that's what I'm worrying about the most.
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On April 29 2012 04:07 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 03:59 maltey wrote:On April 29 2012 03:47 supernovamaniac wrote:On April 29 2012 03:39 maltey wrote:
Ok excellent.
@SNM/BLinD-RawR
Thanks for the input. That sounds good to me. In which case it will have to be very much coordinated with game as it sounds like he has some projects he's working on as well.
@Chef/Falling
Thank you both for the input. I still believe having a Korean/Foreigner tourney would be a good idea as it helps bring together the two scenes. These two ideas can work in tandem.
And I disagree with chef that the tourneys aren't very good. They are awesome to watch.
You're right though I haven't put enough emphasis on improving the game itself and Iccup.
So here's my list of features critical to the success of BW:
1. Automatic Port Forwarding
2. Plugin to fix W7 Color Problem
3. ELO Ranking on ICCUP (Keep letter ranks and seasons, just have a lifetime ELO rank attached so noobs can dodge?)
4. Enhance Resolution Plugin (Force AA/Image sharpening maybe as some GPU's don't do this)
5. Android Apps that link to ICCUP (like the awesome Fish server chat app)
Any other ideas?
EDIT:
@Game @CaucasianAsian
Ok I guess my list can apply to Fish/Brain Server?
Maybe our translators can start there? So should we apply efforts to getting English Fish site? Ehh not sure how many people from Fish want to collaborate because they did ban foreign IP (or was it brain?) due to massive amounts of cheating (brain is dead btw, Fish killed it). Also if anything, the people running the server aren't as bad as iCCup, but some of them are still childish (there was an incident where the person running the server just completely shutdown Fish because there was internal fight... problem was resolved under a day, but yeah). Also just because you don't like one person doesn't mean that his efforts to make something better become complete shit, heads up. Whoopsie daisies! I hope I didn't come across as disliking someone. I'm just trying to get a consensus on what people think should happen as I don't think this will succeed unless the community is behind it. Also, I thought CA's idea of an English FishBattle.net sounded like a step towards uniting the scenes. But as I'm a revolting noobie I play almost always on ICCUP so I'm very open to either direction. It sounds like we'll have server drama either way we go. EDIT: On April 29 2012 03:56 ImbaTosS wrote:It might be worth calling some more attention to this. The title is confusing, but a good point is raised by the OP. This topic Added to OP. ty I wasn't pointing at your responses, I was just giving heads up to some people who were trying to downplay some of the efforts of some people in this community (read everything and you might find what I'm talking about) English Fishbnet is a good idea, and it will allow players to play on one of the most reliable servers out there. However, the problem is that when iCCup players try to play on fish, they will get destroyed (to some extent) and that's what I'm worrying about the most.
Oh whoops again hehe. Ok so we have a problem that needs solving how do we ease in the noobs and unite the scenes at the same time.
On April 29 2012 04:06 BisuDagger wrote:
I will contribute as a:
1. Programmer - I'm an experienced video game developer I'm sure I can help
2. Caster - I shoutcasted tournaments in Orlando and Gaineville Fl. Just haven't had time to do quality stuff for TL
3. Sponsor - I am more then willing to sponsor tournaments when my budget permits.
Basically, pm me when I need to be involved otherwise I'll be forgetful since I already am so caught up with all that is happening in the SC world.
Thanks very much.
BTW everyone tune into Jumper vs Wallace going on in hacklebeast's stream right now! Hacklebeast + Imbatoss commentating
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On April 29 2012 04:23 maltey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 04:07 supernovamaniac wrote:On April 29 2012 03:59 maltey wrote:On April 29 2012 03:47 supernovamaniac wrote:On April 29 2012 03:39 maltey wrote:
Ok excellent.
@SNM/BLinD-RawR
Thanks for the input. That sounds good to me. In which case it will have to be very much coordinated with game as it sounds like he has some projects he's working on as well.
@Chef/Falling
Thank you both for the input. I still believe having a Korean/Foreigner tourney would be a good idea as it helps bring together the two scenes. These two ideas can work in tandem.
And I disagree with chef that the tourneys aren't very good. They are awesome to watch.
You're right though I haven't put enough emphasis on improving the game itself and Iccup.
So here's my list of features critical to the success of BW:
1. Automatic Port Forwarding
2. Plugin to fix W7 Color Problem
3. ELO Ranking on ICCUP (Keep letter ranks and seasons, just have a lifetime ELO rank attached so noobs can dodge?)
4. Enhance Resolution Plugin (Force AA/Image sharpening maybe as some GPU's don't do this)
5. Android Apps that link to ICCUP (like the awesome Fish server chat app)
Any other ideas?
EDIT:
@Game @CaucasianAsian
Ok I guess my list can apply to Fish/Brain Server?
Maybe our translators can start there? So should we apply efforts to getting English Fish site? Ehh not sure how many people from Fish want to collaborate because they did ban foreign IP (or was it brain?) due to massive amounts of cheating (brain is dead btw, Fish killed it). Also if anything, the people running the server aren't as bad as iCCup, but some of them are still childish (there was an incident where the person running the server just completely shutdown Fish because there was internal fight... problem was resolved under a day, but yeah). Also just because you don't like one person doesn't mean that his efforts to make something better become complete shit, heads up. Whoopsie daisies! I hope I didn't come across as disliking someone. I'm just trying to get a consensus on what people think should happen as I don't think this will succeed unless the community is behind it. Also, I thought CA's idea of an English FishBattle.net sounded like a step towards uniting the scenes. But as I'm a revolting noobie I play almost always on ICCUP so I'm very open to either direction. It sounds like we'll have server drama either way we go. EDIT: On April 29 2012 03:56 ImbaTosS wrote:It might be worth calling some more attention to this. The title is confusing, but a good point is raised by the OP. This topic Added to OP. ty I wasn't pointing at your responses, I was just giving heads up to some people who were trying to downplay some of the efforts of some people in this community (read everything and you might find what I'm talking about) English Fishbnet is a good idea, and it will allow players to play on one of the most reliable servers out there. However, the problem is that when iCCup players try to play on fish, they will get destroyed (to some extent) and that's what I'm worrying about the most. Oh whoops again hehe. Ok so we have a problem that needs solving how do we ease in the noobs and unite the scenes at the same time. Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 04:06 BisuDagger wrote:
I will contribute as a:
1. Programmer - I'm an experienced video game developer I'm sure I can help
2. Caster - I shoutcasted tournaments in Orlando and Gaineville Fl. Just haven't had time to do quality stuff for TL
3. Sponsor - I am more then willing to sponsor tournaments when my budget permits.
Basically, pm me when I need to be involved otherwise I'll be forgetful since I already am so caught up with all that is happening in the SC world. Thanks very much. BTW everyone tune into Jumper vs Wallace going on in hacklebeast's stream right now! Hacklebeast + Imbatoss commentating
That has been the main problem (oops) and will be until the foreigners get up to the level that Koreans are at. If the foreigners are on completely different level compared to Koreans, then there is no way that both scenes would come together and play each other because Koreans will complain that games are too easy.
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On April 29 2012 04:28 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 04:23 maltey wrote:On April 29 2012 04:07 supernovamaniac wrote:On April 29 2012 03:59 maltey wrote:On April 29 2012 03:47 supernovamaniac wrote:On April 29 2012 03:39 maltey wrote:
Ok excellent.
@SNM/BLinD-RawR
Thanks for the input. That sounds good to me. In which case it will have to be very much coordinated with game as it sounds like he has some projects he's working on as well.
@Chef/Falling
Thank you both for the input. I still believe having a Korean/Foreigner tourney would be a good idea as it helps bring together the two scenes. These two ideas can work in tandem.
And I disagree with chef that the tourneys aren't very good. They are awesome to watch.
You're right though I haven't put enough emphasis on improving the game itself and Iccup.
So here's my list of features critical to the success of BW:
1. Automatic Port Forwarding
2. Plugin to fix W7 Color Problem
3. ELO Ranking on ICCUP (Keep letter ranks and seasons, just have a lifetime ELO rank attached so noobs can dodge?)
4. Enhance Resolution Plugin (Force AA/Image sharpening maybe as some GPU's don't do this)
5. Android Apps that link to ICCUP (like the awesome Fish server chat app)
Any other ideas?
EDIT:
@Game @CaucasianAsian
Ok I guess my list can apply to Fish/Brain Server?
Maybe our translators can start there? So should we apply efforts to getting English Fish site? Ehh not sure how many people from Fish want to collaborate because they did ban foreign IP (or was it brain?) due to massive amounts of cheating (brain is dead btw, Fish killed it). Also if anything, the people running the server aren't as bad as iCCup, but some of them are still childish (there was an incident where the person running the server just completely shutdown Fish because there was internal fight... problem was resolved under a day, but yeah). Also just because you don't like one person doesn't mean that his efforts to make something better become complete shit, heads up. Whoopsie daisies! I hope I didn't come across as disliking someone. I'm just trying to get a consensus on what people think should happen as I don't think this will succeed unless the community is behind it. Also, I thought CA's idea of an English FishBattle.net sounded like a step towards uniting the scenes. But as I'm a revolting noobie I play almost always on ICCUP so I'm very open to either direction. It sounds like we'll have server drama either way we go. EDIT: On April 29 2012 03:56 ImbaTosS wrote:It might be worth calling some more attention to this. The title is confusing, but a good point is raised by the OP. This topic Added to OP. ty I wasn't pointing at your responses, I was just giving heads up to some people who were trying to downplay some of the efforts of some people in this community (read everything and you might find what I'm talking about) English Fishbnet is a good idea, and it will allow players to play on one of the most reliable servers out there. However, the problem is that when iCCup players try to play on fish, they will get destroyed (to some extent) and that's what I'm worrying about the most. Oh whoops again hehe. Ok so we have a problem that needs solving how do we ease in the noobs and unite the scenes at the same time. On April 29 2012 04:06 BisuDagger wrote:
I will contribute as a:
1. Programmer - I'm an experienced video game developer I'm sure I can help
2. Caster - I shoutcasted tournaments in Orlando and Gaineville Fl. Just haven't had time to do quality stuff for TL
3. Sponsor - I am more then willing to sponsor tournaments when my budget permits.
Basically, pm me when I need to be involved otherwise I'll be forgetful since I already am so caught up with all that is happening in the SC world. Thanks very much. BTW everyone tune into Jumper vs Wallace going on in hacklebeast's stream right now! Hacklebeast + Imbatoss commentating That has been the main problem (oops) and will be until the foreigners get up to the level that Koreans are at. If the foreigners are on completely different level compared to Koreans, then there is no way that both scenes would come together and play each other because Koreans will complain that games are too easy.
I completely agree that putting together tourneys that are open to the Koreans and foreigners both will always be one sided. This is one of the biggest reasons the scene has been split for so long. A divided scene made sense as long as we could watch Proleague/OSL/MSL for the high quality games and then watch foreigner tourneys to cheer for the local heroes.
But sc2 has, for better or worse, changed both of those things. 95% of the high level foreigners went on to play sc2 and now the Korean Proleague seems to be making the switch too. The main reason afaik for their switch was not lack of interest but lack of sponsors.
So to me the first phase of this project is just getting some grassroots money for a (mostly) Korean amateur tournament. To me this has nothing to do with merging the two competitive scenes as the Koreans would just dominate anyways. But it has everything to do with connecting Korean players with foreign viewers/sponsors. While we can never compete with sc2 in terms of viewers or cash being thrown around, we may be able to get enough to sustain a small league where we can still watch high level (read Korean) games of bw if (read when) Proleague shifts completely over.
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On April 29 2012 07:16 CakeOrI)eath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 04:28 supernovamaniac wrote:On April 29 2012 04:23 maltey wrote:On April 29 2012 04:07 supernovamaniac wrote:On April 29 2012 03:59 maltey wrote:On April 29 2012 03:47 supernovamaniac wrote:On April 29 2012 03:39 maltey wrote:
Ok excellent.
@SNM/BLinD-RawR
Thanks for the input. That sounds good to me. In which case it will have to be very much coordinated with game as it sounds like he has some projects he's working on as well.
@Chef/Falling
Thank you both for the input. I still believe having a Korean/Foreigner tourney would be a good idea as it helps bring together the two scenes. These two ideas can work in tandem.
And I disagree with chef that the tourneys aren't very good. They are awesome to watch.
You're right though I haven't put enough emphasis on improving the game itself and Iccup.
So here's my list of features critical to the success of BW:
1. Automatic Port Forwarding
2. Plugin to fix W7 Color Problem
3. ELO Ranking on ICCUP (Keep letter ranks and seasons, just have a lifetime ELO rank attached so noobs can dodge?)
4. Enhance Resolution Plugin (Force AA/Image sharpening maybe as some GPU's don't do this)
5. Android Apps that link to ICCUP (like the awesome Fish server chat app)
Any other ideas?
EDIT:
@Game @CaucasianAsian
Ok I guess my list can apply to Fish/Brain Server?
Maybe our translators can start there? So should we apply efforts to getting English Fish site? Ehh not sure how many people from Fish want to collaborate because they did ban foreign IP (or was it brain?) due to massive amounts of cheating (brain is dead btw, Fish killed it). Also if anything, the people running the server aren't as bad as iCCup, but some of them are still childish (there was an incident where the person running the server just completely shutdown Fish because there was internal fight... problem was resolved under a day, but yeah). Also just because you don't like one person doesn't mean that his efforts to make something better become complete shit, heads up. Whoopsie daisies! I hope I didn't come across as disliking someone. I'm just trying to get a consensus on what people think should happen as I don't think this will succeed unless the community is behind it. Also, I thought CA's idea of an English FishBattle.net sounded like a step towards uniting the scenes. But as I'm a revolting noobie I play almost always on ICCUP so I'm very open to either direction. It sounds like we'll have server drama either way we go. EDIT: On April 29 2012 03:56 ImbaTosS wrote:It might be worth calling some more attention to this. The title is confusing, but a good point is raised by the OP. This topic Added to OP. ty I wasn't pointing at your responses, I was just giving heads up to some people who were trying to downplay some of the efforts of some people in this community (read everything and you might find what I'm talking about) English Fishbnet is a good idea, and it will allow players to play on one of the most reliable servers out there. However, the problem is that when iCCup players try to play on fish, they will get destroyed (to some extent) and that's what I'm worrying about the most. Oh whoops again hehe. Ok so we have a problem that needs solving how do we ease in the noobs and unite the scenes at the same time. On April 29 2012 04:06 BisuDagger wrote:
I will contribute as a:
1. Programmer - I'm an experienced video game developer I'm sure I can help
2. Caster - I shoutcasted tournaments in Orlando and Gaineville Fl. Just haven't had time to do quality stuff for TL
3. Sponsor - I am more then willing to sponsor tournaments when my budget permits.
Basically, pm me when I need to be involved otherwise I'll be forgetful since I already am so caught up with all that is happening in the SC world. Thanks very much. BTW everyone tune into Jumper vs Wallace going on in hacklebeast's stream right now! Hacklebeast + Imbatoss commentating That has been the main problem (oops) and will be until the foreigners get up to the level that Koreans are at. If the foreigners are on completely different level compared to Koreans, then there is no way that both scenes would come together and play each other because Koreans will complain that games are too easy. I completely agree that putting together tourneys that are open to the Koreans and foreigners both will always be one sided. This is one of the biggest reasons the scene has been split for so long. A divided scene made sense as long as we could watch Proleague/OSL/MSL for the high quality games and then watch foreigner tourneys to cheer for the local heroes. But sc2 has, for better or worse, changed both of those things. 95% of the high level foreigners went on to play sc2 and now the Korean Proleague seems to be making the switch too. The main reason afaik for their switch was not lack of interest but lack of sponsors. So to me the first phase of this project is just getting some grassroots money for a (mostly) Korean amateur tournament. To me this has nothing to do with merging the two competitive scenes as the Koreans would just dominate anyways. But it has everything to do with connecting Korean players with foreign viewers/sponsors. While we can never compete with sc2 in terms of viewers or cash being thrown around, we may be able to get enough to sustain a small league where we can still watch high level (read Korean) games of bw if (read when) Proleague shifts completely over.
I'm not talking about tournaments (Look at Sziky), I'm talking about the general players that are out there.
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I think something that deters players from playing and enjoying BW is the inability to host. Is there really no way around the ports? Is it possible to program something that solves this problem?
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On April 29 2012 07:36 blubbdavid wrote:
I think something that deters players from playing and enjoying BW is the inability to host. Is there really no way around the ports? Is it possible to program something that solves this problem?
Plenty of threads on TL about opening your ports.
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On April 29 2012 07:46 Game wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 07:36 blubbdavid wrote:
I think something that deters players from playing and enjoying BW is the inability to host. Is there really no way around the ports? Is it possible to program something that solves this problem? Plenty of threads on TL about opening your ports.
That's really off-putting for someone totally new to the game though. The ideal thing would be a plugin included with ICCUP launcher, but it's probably impossible. I use multiple routers because I go in between a couple places, so I caved and bought PFConfig. Best $20 I spent on my gaming habit, besides BW itself of course.
I've been through revitalization efforts with games before, specifically a MUD. Never worked for the MUD, but maybe a game with actual graphics will work
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On April 29 2012 07:46 Game wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 07:36 blubbdavid wrote:
I think something that deters players from playing and enjoying BW is the inability to host. Is there really no way around the ports? Is it possible to program something that solves this problem? Plenty of threads on TL about opening your ports.
Yeah i used one myself to get my ports opened but there are still a lot of people that cant figure it out/dont want to/are not able to port forward. There are a lot of players who just sit in the join area of bnet hoping someone makes a d- game. Too many potential players will give up IMO. Making the game more accessible and easier to use cant possibly be a bad thing.
@SNM Looks like i started a trend of misunderstanding your posts eh?
@CakeorI)eath I do agree with everything you say though.
@everyone to reinvigorate the noobie scene i was wondering about the idea of a second low-level clan similar to sGs? Maybe we can have a fun rivalry/clan war type dynamic going on? It might be a good way to help keep interest in the game and measure progress. Good idea/bad idea? sGs is awesome so a second one is almost double awesome right?
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On April 29 2012 09:14 maltey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 07:46 Game wrote:On April 29 2012 07:36 blubbdavid wrote:
I think something that deters players from playing and enjoying BW is the inability to host. Is there really no way around the ports? Is it possible to program something that solves this problem? Plenty of threads on TL about opening your ports. Yeah i used one myself to get my ports opened but there are still a lot of people that cant figure it out/dont want to/are not able to port forward. There are a lot of players who just sit in the join area of bnet hoping someone makes a d- game. Too many potential players will give up IMO. Making the game more accessible and easier to use cant possibly be a bad thing. @SNM Looks like i started a trend of misunderstanding your posts eh? @CakeorI)eath I do agree with everything you say though. @everyone to reinvigorate the noobie scene i was wondering about the idea of a second low-level clan similar to sGs? Maybe we can have a fun rivalry/clan war type dynamic going on? It might be a good way to help keep interest in the game and measure progress. Good idea/bad idea? sGs is awesome so a second one is almost double awesome right?
Used to have that between StC and ITP. Both defunct.
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@maltey
You asked for my opinion, but I have a mutual agreement with iCCup that we don't like each other, and all of your ideas are either almost impossible or to do with iCCup so I don't know what to tell you man. I'm all for inducing funds and prominent features into the BW scene, so I will say your one idea is good. The ELO. Not an iCCup ELO, they "have" that. But a general one, for all cash tournaments. I've actually been looking for 5 people to help me gather information on roughly 100 players for a LOT of tournaments to assist me in creating the only accurate foreign ELO. GosuGamers has an alright one, but they've ruined it by attributing too much worth to low value content just because of age rather than foundation. Also the inactivity is very harsh with how limited of a community we have to deal with for a proper ELO.
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On April 29 2012 11:20 Game wrote:
@maltey
You asked for my opinion, but I have a mutual agreement with iCCup that we don't like each other, and all of your ideas are either almost impossible or to do with iCCup so I don't know what to tell you man. I'm all for inducing funds and prominent features into the BW scene, so I will say your one idea is good. The ELO. Not an iCCup ELO, they "have" that. But a general one, for all cash tournaments. I've actually been looking for 5 people to help me gather information on roughly 100 players for a LOT of tournaments to assist me in creating the only accurate foreign ELO. GosuGamers has an alright one, but they've ruined it by attributing too much worth to low value content just because of age rather than foundation. Also the inactivity is very harsh with how limited of a community we have to deal with for a proper ELO.
Thanks for your feedback Game
I'll see how I can incorporate it.
Another idea: "State of the Brood War" show. Anyone like this idea? I saw "State of the Empire" for AOC and it was pretty good even though there was only one guest who had English as a first language.
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I would be very intersted in being either a stream tech or a caster.
If you honestly want to know where the real issue lies its in the skill gap between korea and foreigners. What we're offering them is basically a huge group of E's by their scale with maybe 5 to 10 Cs which even then, its very low level. The gap you havr to worry about isn't recruiting lowbies to become from foreigner D to foreigner C-. Its getting foreigner C to A to Korean level C and B. A fish B is ridiculously beyond the foreign scene right now especially if you consider you're facing tons of teams of fish B and A and higher.
Close the foreigner C and up to the fish/korean C and up, and you can integrate much better.
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On April 29 2012 12:22 sCCrooked wrote:
I would be very intersted in being either a stream tech or a caster.
If you honestly want to know where the real issue lies its in the skill gap between korea and foreigners. What we're offering them is basically a huge group of E's by their scale with maybe 5 to 10 Cs which even then, its very low level. The gap you havr to worry about isn't recruiting lowbies to become from foreigner D to foreigner C-. Its getting foreigner C to A to Korean level C and B. A fish B is ridiculously beyond the foreign scene right now especially if you consider you're facing tons of teams of fish B and A and higher.
Close the foreigner C and up to the fish/korean C and up, and you can integrate much better.
Very true. Also, I'd love to help with casting as well.
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On April 29 2012 11:32 maltey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 11:20 Game wrote:
@maltey
You asked for my opinion, but I have a mutual agreement with iCCup that we don't like each other, and all of your ideas are either almost impossible or to do with iCCup so I don't know what to tell you man. I'm all for inducing funds and prominent features into the BW scene, so I will say your one idea is good. The ELO. Not an iCCup ELO, they "have" that. But a general one, for all cash tournaments. I've actually been looking for 5 people to help me gather information on roughly 100 players for a LOT of tournaments to assist me in creating the only accurate foreign ELO. GosuGamers has an alright one, but they've ruined it by attributing too much worth to low value content just because of age rather than foundation. Also the inactivity is very harsh with how limited of a community we have to deal with for a proper ELO. Thanks for your feedback Game I'll see how I can incorporate it. Another idea: "State of the Brood War" show. Anyone like this idea? I saw "State of the Empire" for AOC and it was pretty good even though there was only one guest who had English as a first language.
State of the Game
State of the League
The main problem is, can we get enough panels to discuss on BW? I guess it can last for few months, but I don't know how many people will constantly come back to watch the show. I'm all in for talking about Korean e-Sports, but atm I'm trying to learn as much as I can on the SC2 scene while trying to keep up with Korean BW players (or I should say KeSPA-sponsored players)
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Korea (South)11570 Posts
I'm down to be part of that, but idk how much new information there is for it to be a regular thing
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Korea (South)11570 Posts
I have spoken with a few korean teams (Lt, Name, z-zone so far) and they all show interest in something like this.
I asked if they would be interested in a clan league with foreigners, a semi-pro / ex pro gamer show match (they're hesitant on this), and starleague.
They did say some joking thing like "foreigners would be paying us to play them? Are they crazy?"
please note, that's not their exact words!
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49629 Posts
On April 29 2012 17:32 CaucasianAsian wrote:
I have spoken with a few korean teams (Lt, Name, z-zone so far) and they all show interest in something like this.
I asked if they would be interested in a clan league with foreigners, a semi-pro / ex pro gamer show match (they're hesitant on this), and starleague.
They did say some joking thing like "foreigners would be paying us to play them? Are they crazy?"
please note, that's not their exact words!
lol, but really I'd like to pay them to play each other too.
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On April 29 2012 17:32 CaucasianAsian wrote:
They did say some joking thing like "foreigners would be paying us to play them? Are they crazy?"
please note, that's not their exact words!
yes. and yes ^^
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Even if we lose it might motivate a bunch of players of all leagues to practice more with the goal of making it on the "foreigner" team.
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On April 29 2012 23:51 L3gendary wrote:
Even if we lose it might motivate a bunch of players of all leagues to practice more with the goal of making it on the "foreigner" team.
Haha, I could see a global proleague where the foreigner team is the "Air Force Ace" of the league. Lose almost every game but still participate to promote involvement.
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Updated OP with polls. I now think this thread should focus entirely on Korean Amateur BW/Foreigner tourneys and content. If we want to work on Strengthening Foreign BW we should go to this thread.
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When summer arrives, and I go back to my job, I am willing to pay 100 dollars per mouth for a tournament. Actually screw that, I am hiring a Korean translator and getting BW lessons from MJY 
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Obviously votes are only just coming in but if people think this isn't worthwhile should we consider dropping it? As there's no point if the majority of the community isn't behind it?
EDIT: if we can get 200 people to average 5$/mo we could hold an individual league tourney with a 2000$ prize pool every two months. Or we could go every three months and hire some professional work done with the extra 1000$.
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Korea (South)11570 Posts
people are saying it is worthwhile, just some people are nits and don't like to donate money for their entertainment!
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Well, funding is always the toughest nut. My system of paying in Sweden is based on the investment style idea that somewhere the donation grows to make the whole thing more worth it.
A Swede pays $7:50 a year to donate $7:50 + $9 + a part of the $600 that the organization gets as a whole = with the current ammount of members around $102. So each person is by paying $7:50 while donating $102. That is much more fun than paying and donating 50$. Unfortunately one can't just start 50 of those organizations and get the standard $600 from them all, but there are other ways to gather money.
I have some ideas on how to get some more structure to this, but I just want to get my little swedish group up and running first. That would at least guarantee a constant small, but at least efficient inflow of capital. It is fairly obvious that we need to realize that our role as a gaming community did change the day we all read the thread about the switch here in forum. Now we need to get some sort of foundation, not just discussing on a forum. There needs to be something more stable.
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On April 30 2012 00:29 CakeOrI)eath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 23:51 L3gendary wrote:
Even if we lose it might motivate a bunch of players of all leagues to practice more with the goal of making it on the "foreigner" team. Haha, I could see a global proleague where the foreigner team is the "Air Force Ace" of the league. Lose almost every game but still participate to promote involvement.
I lol'd pretty hard at this. But I'd be down. It would give me a reason to practice. Unfortunately, Georgia tech unintentionally blocked the IP for iCCup, so i havent played in months.
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Korea (South)11570 Posts
try playing fish server then
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Even with my entire computer's settings in korean (yes i've read all the gateway guides), the game titles and channel titles are just squares. :/
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On April 30 2012 04:16 maltey wrote:
Obviously votes are only just coming in but if people think this isn't worthwhile should we consider dropping it? As there's no point if the majority of the community isn't behind it?
EDIT: if we can get 200 people to average 5$/mo we could hold an individual league tourney with a 2000$ prize pool every two months. Or we could go every three months and hire some professional work done with the extra 1000$.
A system that relies on regular, mass donations is really dumb....
What is the point of a $2000 prize pool? Like, to the viewer and the participants, what is the difference between 2000, and 1500? 1500 and 750? You could go to 500 before it starts feelings small.
Who is going to manage the money? I've seen at least 20 blogs about iCCup corruption lol, and they pretty much all work for free!
I don't know, this seems weird, and even weirder that you want prize pools to be donated money. Was TSL1 and 2 awesome just because they had big prize pools? Not at all. They were awesome because they were well produced and had entertaining casters. Being able to have a large prize pool because of Razer taking them seriously was dandy, but that is a side affect of being well produced, not what made TSL well produced.
~~ just my thoughts. Not trying to be arrogant but it's worth doing a double take on your donations idea ;p
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Korea (South)11570 Posts
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On April 30 2012 06:33 Jaevlaterran wrote:
Well, funding is always the toughest nut. My system of paying in Sweden is based on the investment style idea that somewhere the donation grows to make the whole thing more worth it.
A Swede pays $7:50 a year to donate $7:50 + $9 + a part of the $600 that the organization gets as a whole = with the current ammount of members around $102. So each person is by paying $7:50 while donating $102. That is much more fun than paying and donating 50$. Unfortunately one can't just start 50 of those organizations and get the standard $600 from them all, but there are other ways to gather money.
I have some ideas on how to get some more structure to this, but I just want to get my little swedish group up and running first. That would at least guarantee a constant small, but at least efficient inflow of capital. It is fairly obvious that we need to realize that our role as a gaming community did change the day we all read the thread about the switch here in forum. Now we need to get some sort of foundation, not just discussing on a forum. There needs to be something more stable.
Thanks man, what you're doing is awesome. So are you thinking along the same lines as I am with a community run org?
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On April 30 2012 07:38 CaucasianAsian wrote:just to make sure, Make sure you have downloaded and installed the korean language pack change all your regional, date, and time settings to Korea. add Korean keyboard Install microsoft office (somehow this fixed it for me) This thread helped me. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=282341
Ya. I'll try it again when I get back to room, but for now, studying for finals is my priority.
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On April 30 2012 07:38 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 04:16 maltey wrote:
Obviously votes are only just coming in but if people think this isn't worthwhile should we consider dropping it? As there's no point if the majority of the community isn't behind it?
EDIT: if we can get 200 people to average 5$/mo we could hold an individual league tourney with a 2000$ prize pool every two months. Or we could go every three months and hire some professional work done with the extra 1000$. A system that relies on regular, mass donations is really dumb.... What is the point of a $2000 prize pool? Like, to the viewer and the participants, what is the difference between 2000, and 1500? 1500 and 750? You could go to 500 before it starts feelings small. Who is going to manage the money? I've seen at least 20 blogs about iCCup corruption lol, and they pretty much all work for free! I don't know, this seems weird, and even weirder that you want prize pools to be donated money. Was TSL1 and 2 awesome just because they had big prize pools? Not at all. They were awesome because they were well produced and had entertaining casters. Being able to have a large prize pool because of Razer taking them seriously was dandy, but that is a side affect of being well produced, not what made TSL well produced. ~~ just my thoughts. Not trying to be arrogant but it's worth doing a double take on your donations idea ;p
Lol i dont care if the prize pool is ten dollars if thats all it takes to support the scene. And the only reason I was thinking regular donations is so that we can avoid putting the content behind a paywall. I'm throwing ideas out there, not saying, "This how shit's gonna be TL!"
You're right prize pools dont make the event exciting its the players. But the prize pools attract the best players. what we want is the highest level possible brood war which after the switch probably means amateur/semi-pro koreans plus hopefully a handful of foreigners. How much does it take to make that happen and hopefully on a consistent basis.
As far as corruption, thats why i was hoping for an open, community-controlled organization (definitely not by me, i have no time due to weird work schedules). Thats probably pie-in-the-sky as well though. :p
Jaevlaterran's work is by far the most promising.
Youre probably right but me and many others here i think are pretty desperate
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On April 30 2012 07:45 maltey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 06:33 Jaevlaterran wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Well, funding is always the toughest nut. My system of paying in Sweden is based on the investment style idea that somewhere the donation grows to make the whole thing more worth it.
A Swede pays $7:50 a year to donate $7:50 + $9 + a part of the $600 that the organization gets as a whole = with the current ammount of members around $102. So each person is by paying $7:50 while donating $102. That is much more fun than paying and donating 50$. Unfortunately one can't just start 50 of those organizations and get the standard $600 from them all, but there are other ways to gather money.
I have some ideas on how to get some more structure to this, but I just want to get my little swedish group up and running first. That would at least guarantee a constant small, but at least efficient inflow of capital. It is fairly obvious that we need to realize that our role as a gaming community did change the day we all read the thread about the switch here in forum. Now we need to get some sort of foundation, not just discussing on a forum. There needs to be something more stable.
Thanks man, what you're doing is awesome. So are you thinking along the same lines as I am with a community run org?
Yeah. There needs to be a fanbased organization to coordinate our efforts. Like this we are still just a few forumites talking really. I'm thinking along the(tv series) Firefly fan organization. A few years ago they raised $100 000 to make a movie IIRC even tho the TV series probably died 10 years ago.
I've seen L_Masters ideas too from the BW initiative thread. They seem to have a lot in common with this thread. There's a website and stuff on the way there and it seems to me like these threads are very much alike, even tho his thread is older.
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On April 30 2012 08:30 Jaevlaterran wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 07:45 maltey wrote:On April 30 2012 06:33 Jaevlaterran wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Well, funding is always the toughest nut. My system of paying in Sweden is based on the investment style idea that somewhere the donation grows to make the whole thing more worth it.
A Swede pays $7:50 a year to donate $7:50 + $9 + a part of the $600 that the organization gets as a whole = with the current ammount of members around $102. So each person is by paying $7:50 while donating $102. That is much more fun than paying and donating 50$. Unfortunately one can't just start 50 of those organizations and get the standard $600 from them all, but there are other ways to gather money.
I have some ideas on how to get some more structure to this, but I just want to get my little swedish group up and running first. That would at least guarantee a constant small, but at least efficient inflow of capital. It is fairly obvious that we need to realize that our role as a gaming community did change the day we all read the thread about the switch here in forum. Now we need to get some sort of foundation, not just discussing on a forum. There needs to be something more stable.
Thanks man, what you're doing is awesome. So are you thinking along the same lines as I am with a community run org? Yeah. There needs to be a fanbased organization to coordinate our efforts. Like this we are still just a few forumites talking really. I'm thinking along the(tv series) Firefly fan organization. A few years ago they raised $100 000 to make a movie IIRC even tho the TV series probably died 10 years ago. I've seen L_Masters ideas too from the BW initiative thread. They seem to have a lot in common with this thread. There's a website and stuff on the way there and it seems to me like these threads are very much alike, even tho his thread is older.
I read a lot of the thread and the tlbwinitiative forums. Their ideas were far better than anything i could come up with so I just linked to l_master's thread in the OP.
And thanks for the firefly fan org suggestion and your support.
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United Kingdom1667 Posts
As far as I can tell, trying to get foreigners involved in Korean stuff is the best factor which has come out of this thread. For example, if we knew of Korean amateur tournaments, could access the Fish website more easily, that could really make a start. Along with playing with them- I don't mean necessarily with the best amateurs. I mean the ones with whom we could go more toe-to-toe, and start to build bridges.
CaucasianAsian, are there Korean team/individual leagues for players more of a skilled foreigner's level, which you know of? That would be the place to start.
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Korea (South)11570 Posts
there is a fish server clan league with various divisions similar to iccup (no prize money). The teams you see in the channel tab on fish, are the teams who are registered for the various leagues iirc.
Although I don't know the details of it, or how to register a team on fish. if you're interested in this then someone with better korean than mine wouldn't mind messaging an admin on fish and ask them about the process ("/admins all" will let you see which admins are online).
I don't know about any mid. level korean leagues, sorry.
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On April 30 2012 09:01 ImbaTosS wrote:
As far as I can tell, trying to get foreigners involved in Korean stuff is the best factor which has come out of this thread. For example, if we knew of Korean amateur tournaments, could access the Fish website more easily, that could really make a start. Along with playing with them- I don't mean necessarily with the best amateurs. I mean the ones with whom we could go more toe-to-toe, and start to build bridges.
CaucasianAsian, are there Korean team/individual leagues for players more of a skilled foreigner's level, which you know of? That would be the place to start.
Yeah I agree with you which is why I have switched focus here recently.
Actually the best thing to come out of this thread IMHO is the other threads that have started recently. I'm probably taking too much credit, ie it's probably a coincidence, but right after my thread all these other awesome threads suddenly popped up like jaevlaterran's, ninazerg's etc. If nothing else, hopefully the conversation has changed from the fatalist ones that had been in BW general before.
BTW your casting was brilliant yesterday. (and hacklebeast's of course) You must have the best vocabulary of any caster I've ever heard. Maybe its just your accent makes you seem really smart.
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On April 30 2012 09:27 maltey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 09:01 ImbaTosS wrote:
As far as I can tell, trying to get foreigners involved in Korean stuff is the best factor which has come out of this thread. For example, if we knew of Korean amateur tournaments, could access the Fish website more easily, that could really make a start. Along with playing with them- I don't mean necessarily with the best amateurs. I mean the ones with whom we could go more toe-to-toe, and start to build bridges.
CaucasianAsian, are there Korean team/individual leagues for players more of a skilled foreigner's level, which you know of? That would be the place to start. Yeah I agree with you which is why I have switched focus here recently. Actually the best thing to come out of this thread IMHO is the other threads that have started recently. I'm probably taking too much credit, ie it's probably a coincidence, but right after my thread all these other awesome threads suddenly popped up like jaevlaterran's, ninazerg's etc. If nothing else, hopefully the conversation has changed from the fatalist ones that had been in BW general before. BTW your casting was brilliant yesterday. (and hacklebeast's of course) You must have the best vocabulary of any caster I've ever heard. Maybe its just your accent makes you seem really smart.
You are taking too much credit
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On April 30 2012 09:30 Game wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 09:27 maltey wrote:On April 30 2012 09:01 ImbaTosS wrote:
As far as I can tell, trying to get foreigners involved in Korean stuff is the best factor which has come out of this thread. For example, if we knew of Korean amateur tournaments, could access the Fish website more easily, that could really make a start. Along with playing with them- I don't mean necessarily with the best amateurs. I mean the ones with whom we could go more toe-to-toe, and start to build bridges.
CaucasianAsian, are there Korean team/individual leagues for players more of a skilled foreigner's level, which you know of? That would be the place to start. Yeah I agree with you which is why I have switched focus here recently. Actually the best thing to come out of this thread IMHO is the other threads that have started recently. I'm probably taking too much credit, ie it's probably a coincidence, but right after my thread all these other awesome threads suddenly popped up like jaevlaterran's, ninazerg's etc. If nothing else, hopefully the conversation has changed from the fatalist ones that had been in BW general before. BTW your casting was brilliant yesterday. (and hacklebeast's of course) You must have the best vocabulary of any caster I've ever heard. Maybe its just your accent makes you seem really smart. You are taking too much credit
Lol I'm certain I am taking too much credit, but that makes no sense to me at all. I wasn't saying I did anything near what L_master and his group did. (Which BTW I linked to this thread in the OP this morning after reading it all last night) if you read my post I was talking about a shift in the recent BW General conversation from the "Your post-BW plans" thread and all the other SC2 v BW debate threads to Jaevlaterran's and ninazerg's threads plus someone resurrecting L_master's thread (Starburst I think).
I haven't done crap, but at least the conversation changed.
EDIT: btw that very thread was ressurected by starburst who linked to my thread btw. Lol.
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IMO anyone who bought into that post-BW plans thread was a BW hipster anyway You don't quit BW, BW quits you.
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I don't mind making a one-time donation even if it's a larger sum, assuming it's actually something worthwhile like the first TSL. The monthly donations really don't make sense. It'll just deteriorate over time.
Tournaments really need sponsors, rather than polling money from fans.
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I agree. When you start to fund and invest interest outside of your personal entertainment into a hobby strictly for enjoyment, you ruin the sensation and zest in that interest. If anything, a sponsor recruiting thread would be more fit to reach your goals.
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Automatic port-forwarding and some kind of auto-matchmaking based on ELO would go a LOOOOOONG way towards adding to the player base (it'd certainly get me playing a lot more BW!)
On April 30 2012 09:49 Cambium wrote:
I don't mind making a one-time donation even if it's a larger sum, assuming it's actually something worthwhile like the first TSL. The monthly donations really don't make sense. It'll just deteriorate over time.
Tournaments really need sponsors, rather than polling money from fans.
Fan money brings sponsor money.
Game, check your e-mail
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On April 30 2012 09:40 maltey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 09:30 Game wrote:On April 30 2012 09:27 maltey wrote:On April 30 2012 09:01 ImbaTosS wrote:
As far as I can tell, trying to get foreigners involved in Korean stuff is the best factor which has come out of this thread. For example, if we knew of Korean amateur tournaments, could access the Fish website more easily, that could really make a start. Along with playing with them- I don't mean necessarily with the best amateurs. I mean the ones with whom we could go more toe-to-toe, and start to build bridges.
CaucasianAsian, are there Korean team/individual leagues for players more of a skilled foreigner's level, which you know of? That would be the place to start. Yeah I agree with you which is why I have switched focus here recently. Actually the best thing to come out of this thread IMHO is the other threads that have started recently. I'm probably taking too much credit, ie it's probably a coincidence, but right after my thread all these other awesome threads suddenly popped up like jaevlaterran's, ninazerg's etc. If nothing else, hopefully the conversation has changed from the fatalist ones that had been in BW general before. BTW your casting was brilliant yesterday. (and hacklebeast's of course) You must have the best vocabulary of any caster I've ever heard. Maybe its just your accent makes you seem really smart. You are taking too much credit Lol I'm certain I am taking too much credit, but that makes no sense to me at all. I wasn't saying I did anything near what L_master and his group did. (Which BTW I linked to this thread in the OP this morning after reading it all last night) if you read my post I was talking about a shift in the recent BW General conversation from the "Your post-BW plans" thread and all the other SC2 v BW debate threads to Jaevlaterran's and ninazerg's threads plus someone resurrecting L_master's thread (Starburst I think). I haven't done crap, but at least the conversation changed. EDIT: btw that very thread was ressurected by starburst who linked to my thread btw. Lol.
Representin' for them gangstas all across the world.
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On April 30 2012 10:14 Ribbon wrote:Automatic port-forwarding and some kind of auto-matchmaking based on ELO would go a LOOOOOONG way towards adding to the player base (it'd certainly get me playing a lot more BW!) Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 09:49 Cambium wrote:
I don't mind making a one-time donation even if it's a larger sum, assuming it's actually something worthwhile like the first TSL. The monthly donations really don't make sense. It'll just deteriorate over time.
Tournaments really need sponsors, rather than polling money from fans. Fan money brings sponsor money. Game, check your e-mail
First part: After my finals tomorrow and Tuesday, I'm going to find the time to write a thread about my ELO initiative which I basically just need help on.
Second part: ^^
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@ ribbon thats exactly my view. I'm trying to talk to some TL programmers about how difficult that would be to implement.
@ game it probably should become a sponsor recruiting thread. I'll add that to the OP when i get home.
@everyone Also, I'm not sure what the big deal is with paying 3, 5, or 10 $ a month voluntarily vs having to pay 20 bucks a month for gsl? IMO if we ever do get some content out it cant be behind a paywall. Sc2 can do that cause its new and shiny but we cant right? If we can get someone or someones willing to sponsor us right away i'm all for that. I imagine though that game and clan had go to hell and back just to scrounge up what he did for basically a once a year tourney. I was hoping several months down the road we'd have a few of the hardcore supporting the content then a year or two down the road a sponsor or two if this _long shot_ project were to be actually successful.
EDIT: Grammar
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Hmm.. ISL1 Feb 2011, ISL2 June 2011, took a break and retired to focus on school, came back with ISL3 Feb 2012... it's really not once a year, also had 16 tournaments from $75-300 in between those times so that there could be BW every single Saturday. It's indeed hard to find sponsors, but has become easier over time once you know who you're dealing with and what to do and look for. Also, GSL is a multi-million dollar production and deserves to be able to charge a membership fee. Like anything in business, you can't ask for money for a production, you have to give the production and convince people it's good enough to splurge on. I don't believe small monthly donations would be beneficial, rather larger (between 25-100) once every _x_ months as a supporter could afford it, once a product is presented to them.
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On April 30 2012 11:18 Game wrote:
Hmm.. ISL1 Feb 2011, ISL2 June 2011, took a break and retired to focus on school, came back with ISL3 Feb 2012... it's really not once a year, also had 16 tournaments from $75-300 in between those times so that there could be BW every single Saturday. It's indeed hard to find sponsors, but has become easier over time once you know who you're dealing with and what to do and look for. Also, GSL is a multi-million dollar production and deserves to be able to charge a membership fee. Like anything in business, you can't ask for money for a production, you have to give the production and convince people it's good enough to splurge on. I don't believe small monthly donations would be beneficial, rather larger (between 25-100) once every _x_ months as a supporter could afford it, once a product is presented to them.
I stand corrected sir. Well done. ISL 2 finished up in august I remembered that but hadn't seen ISL 1 so I made some assumptions. Sorry.
As far as the rest goes. That's exactly the concept: IF a product were presented to them would TL find the model acceptable. This is all an attempt to get the community involved in theorycrafting if you haven't noticed. This isn't "herp derp give me money monthly plox maybe youll get something maybe ya wont lulz"
EDIT: I should clarify. Right now all we have is CaucasianAsian's connection to the amateur scene who are very willing to participate in tournaments. Cool.
Step 2: Market Research What would the market, which is TL, bear? Like any business, you usually do research before you actually invest in a product.
EDIT 2: I should have read this post again after I wrote it. I apologize to game then I follow that apology up by being a total dick. LOL. That makes sense. (ofc, it was intended more as a joke but it certainly didn't come off that way)
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Just giving a realistic explanation of a feasible model man, don't get offended. I wouldn't post in this thread if I didn't think it was constructive.
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On April 30 2012 11:36 Game wrote:
Just giving a realistic explanation of a feasible model man, don't get offended. I wouldn't post in this thread if I didn't think it was constructive.
I apologize. I think the internets didn't convey my feelings. It was supposed to be more joking than reactionary. Should have thrown a winky face on the end.
I was riled up though to be sure.
Thanks for your help sir.
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If and where big sponsors cannot be found, smaller businesses can sponsor individual match days I suppose. That's less of a risk, though it does require finding more companies.
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On April 30 2012 11:57 Nylan wrote:
If and where big sponsors cannot be found, smaller businesses can sponsor individual match days I suppose. That's less of a risk, though it does require finding more companies.
Yep. And that's what Game did for the ISL's. Maybe it can't be done but what I think we're really looking for is consistency. Can we somehow fund a league with good production value and attract the highest level BW players in Korea.
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Korea (South)11570 Posts
Pro gamers 99% of the time are not allowed to play in non-pro leagues in case of leaked replays etc...
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On April 30 2012 12:30 CaucasianAsian wrote:
Pro gamers 99% of the time are not allowed to play in non-pro leagues in case of leaked replays etc...
Is this referring to my last post? Because i actually meant korean amateurs sorry. Should have said highest level after bw pros switch to sc2 or something like that.
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On April 30 2012 12:30 CaucasianAsian wrote:
Pro gamers 99% of the time are not allowed to play in non-pro leagues in case of leaked replays etc...
Really? I guess they don't want people getting strategies directly from the source.
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On April 30 2012 09:47 Game wrote:IMO anyone who bought into that post-BW plans thread was a BW hipster anyway You don't quit BW, BW quits you.
And in Soviet Russia minerals mine you
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I'd love to see some Fish server based leagues with korean teams invited. Like big world wide tournament
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I figure I could probably part with around 50$ a month if that means I get some high-level BW casted for it. Seeing as I'll probably start studying again this fall I don't know for how long I could keep that up, but I'm sure I could at least contribute a small sum of money for as long as someone else is willing to organize a tournament.
Dunno if this particular idea will work out -- put it could, and if so I'm willing to give some money if that's what it takes. Otherwise there should be other BW-tournaments that wouldn't say no to an increase in pricepool.
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On May 01 2012 01:52 TehRei wrote:
I figure I could probably part with around 50$ a month if that means I get some high-level BW casted for it. Seeing as I'll probably start studying again this fall I don't know for how long I could keep that up, but I'm sure I could at least contribute a small sum of money for as long as someone else is willing to organize a tournament.
Dunno if this particular idea will work out -- put it could, and if so I'm willing to give some money if that's what it takes. Otherwise there should be other BW-tournaments that wouldn't say no to an increase in pricepool.
Make sure you join Jaevlaterran's group then It's here.
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On May 01 2012 04:28 maltey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 01:52 TehRei wrote:
I figure I could probably part with around 50$ a month if that means I get some high-level BW casted for it. Seeing as I'll probably start studying again this fall I don't know for how long I could keep that up, but I'm sure I could at least contribute a small sum of money for as long as someone else is willing to organize a tournament.
Dunno if this particular idea will work out -- put it could, and if so I'm willing to give some money if that's what it takes. Otherwise there should be other BW-tournaments that wouldn't say no to an increase in pricepool. Make sure you join Jaevlaterran's group then It's here.
Well played!
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Korea (South)11570 Posts
I'm going to have some free time after thursday, and I really want to start something up such as a global starleague, with a mixture of high level koreans and foreigners. As such, I would like to plan this out with other people, and figure out the best way to invite players, and what criteria we should use. I can set up a paypal or something similar for those who are interested in donating to the prize pool (100% of donations will go to the prize pool). Either way, I'd like to actually put this into motion and start a skype group or something similar for those of us who want to take part in the organization of the tournament. If you're interested in helping out please PM me with your skype information.
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On May 01 2012 07:11 CaucasianAsian wrote:
I'm going to have some free time after thursday, and I really want to start something up such as a global starleague, with a mixture of high level koreans and foreigners. As such, I would like to plan this out with other people, and figure out the best way to invite players, and what criteria we should use. I can set up a paypal or something similar for those who are interested in donating to the prize pool (100% of donations will go to the prize pool). Either way, I'd like to actually put this into motion and start a skype group or something similar for those of us who want to take part in the organization of the tournament. If you're interested in helping out please PM me with your skype information.
You are my hero sir!
@game haha thanks. I check every post to see if they have "sweden" next to their name now.
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United Kingdom1667 Posts
On May 01 2012 07:11 CaucasianAsian wrote:
I'm going to have some free time after thursday, and I really want to start something up such as a global starleague, with a mixture of high level koreans and foreigners. As such, I would like to plan this out with other people, and figure out the best way to invite players, and what criteria we should use. I can set up a paypal or something similar for those who are interested in donating to the prize pool (100% of donations will go to the prize pool). Either way, I'd like to actually put this into motion and start a skype group or something similar for those of us who want to take part in the organization of the tournament. If you're interested in helping out please PM me with your skype information.
I'm very, very pleased you've decided to do this. I may volunteer in a week's time, when my schedule is more clear. BW people, please help this man.
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On May 01 2012 07:11 CaucasianAsian wrote:
I'm going to have some free time after thursday, and I really want to start something up such as a global starleague, with a mixture of high level koreans and foreigners. As such, I would like to plan this out with other people, and figure out the best way to invite players, and what criteria we should use. I can set up a paypal or something similar for those who are interested in donating to the prize pool (100% of donations will go to the prize pool). Either way, I'd like to actually put this into motion and start a skype group or something similar for those of us who want to take part in the organization of the tournament. If you're interested in helping out please PM me with your skype information.
I actually don't see how this would be beneficial. Without flaw it'd end up being top 3 foreigners vs all of Korea's amateurs, inevitably having the foreigners eliminated before any important stage of the league. It'd pretty much be a Korean league, so I feel that's a way of impeding on other foreigner based tournaments. If the purpose was to get the foreign community to rally behind foreigners, there are much more effective ways of doing this. Not to mention, the timezones make it increasingly difficult to have competent gaming by the foreigners since you'd have to cater to the Koreans.
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Korea (South)11570 Posts
So TL fans won't enjoy high level koreans is that what you're saying?
Time zones can be dealt with, as can most of the issues.
I don't know about other people, but the foreign scene in my opinion is lacking. There's just little to no skill left. Koreans on the other hand continue to surprise me. I enjoy watching the highest level games as I can, and if that includes Koreans then you better know that I'll be watching Koreans as opposed to foreigners.
If a foreigner believes he can compete with high level Koreans, then I'd be damn sure to root for him. I want to bring the korean scene to the foreign scene. There's no reason to keep it divided given how small the foreign scene is, and how small the korean scene will become after OSL and proleague switch.
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On May 01 2012 09:40 CaucasianAsian wrote:
So TL fans won't enjoy high level koreans is that what you're saying?
Time zones can be dealt with, as can most of the issues.
I didn't say they won't. You pitched it as a global starleague incorporating foreigners, knowing this would be foreign funded. The fact is, foreigners would be exclusively eliminated in the first stages. TL members love Koreans, this site was built on Koreans, but your pitch is in fact only about them and thus I felt the need to point that out. Time zones really can't be dealt with, no time is ideal for foreigners to actively participate at a level in which we'd want to expose them, even the best. With Korea being 7 hours ahead of foreign times, it'd have to be on a weekend. Koreans typically don't play leagues past 10PM, meaning it'd have to start around 7pm, noon for Europeans. While that's feasible, you automatically exclude all of the Western hemisphere, and I'm pretty sure that wouldn't sit well in a community in which half of it resides. No league with Koreans is feasible for foreigners unless they are aiming to go to Korea to play the game eventually, other than that it's simply bending over and taking it. The aesthetics are just not favorable to meet a common goal of getting good Korean BW and rallying behind foreign players.
Edit to your edit: I don't think insulting the community that you want to incorporate into Korean gaming is really a good way to gain support. Also, the skill gap, as you mentioned, is way too high, and foreigners unlike Koreans (at least the good foreigners) are way too old to re-learn the game or gain a significant level of play to create a multitude of competitive gamers. The Koreans historically, and to this day try to not to participate on our servers or with us in general even when we go to them. It's clear they have always wanted nothing to do with us, and bribing them to come play with the down syndrome kids isn't exactly amazing.
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Korea (South)11570 Posts
Well Game, if you have a better idea then please let me know. Keeping foreigners separate can not be a good idea and instead will just dwindle out the community even more which is the impression I'm getting off of you. There are a few foreigners who can compete against some top amateur koreans which I would love to actually compete.
I have a good relationship with various korean teams, who show interest in the idea of somehow incorporating foreigners. The Koreans scene does not take an anti-foreigner approach, instead they want to embrace it however language barriers play a huge role in the seperation of the leagues. There are various approaches we can take to fix the time zone differences, and the majority of foreigners who actually wants to practice at a high level normally plays during Korean hours, so it will not be too difficult to fix any time zone issues.
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On May 01 2012 10:03 CaucasianAsian wrote:
Well Game, if you have a better idea then please let me know. Keeping foreigners separate can not be a good idea and instead will just dwindle out the community even more which is the impression I'm getting off of you. There are a few foreigners who can compete against some top amateur koreans which I would love to actually compete.
I have a good relationship with various korean teams, who show interest in the idea of somehow incorporating foreigners. The Koreans scene does not take an anti-foreigner approach, instead they want to embrace it however language barriers play a huge role in the seperation of the leagues. There are various approaches we can take to fix the time zone differences, and the majority of foreigners who actually wants to practice at a high level normally plays during Korean hours, so it will not be too difficult to fix any time zone issues.
I'm well aware. Until foreign teams started paying me, I played 99% of my games on West and BrainClan. I understand their attitude, and it is indeed a minority that want to play with white players, and it's not limited to the language barrier. In fact, half of the ones who do want to play with white players want one of the following three: 1) Fans 2) To bully somebody 3) To troll them (typically with perversion). I do indeed consider myself a pillar of the foreign community, and thus yes I do strive to enhance it in every way possible with the resources I have. I don't strictly want to keep the community foreign, but I also don't want to throw money at Koreans to play with us that could be better used in the foreign community.
1) Yellow vs White showmatches
2) A foreign team to play individual clan wars with teams. <-- why is this so different than what Jaev wants? Because it's something that has the necessity of building. Bringing the top foreigners to play a Korean team that would bring the middle and lower ranks, with one good player to supervise and play the last match if necessary. Beat them --> establish even the slightest bit of respect so we could have individual casts and exposure for these clan wars, and have the entire community rally behind one good, solid cause.
3) Invite a minority of Koreans into a majority foreign league. Test out the culture, time zones, and if foreigners can even compete against 1500 Fish players in tournament play.
I mean I have plenty of ideas, I just think yours is really, really bad and detrimental to any effort that would secure a foundation between foreign and Korean BW. Sorry if I've offended you, but it's just how I see it.
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To add to my #2, We'd also need a small bit of incentive for both teams, and that's where the money comes in. The 2 best foreign players (in my opinion they are) don't show up to anything that doesn't involve cash.
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Korea (South)11570 Posts
how is my idea any different than #3? I said a mixture of koreans and foreigners, i didn't say 50-50
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On May 01 2012 10:31 CaucasianAsian wrote:
how is my idea any different than #3? I said a mixture of koreans and foreigners, i didn't say 50-50
My #3 was really a followup to #1, I should've stressed the importance of the order. We haven't had anything conclusive proving it'd be a good use of people's hard earned money of foreigners vs Koreans in almost 5 years. Five years ago, foreigners got slaughtered. If you genuinely had the interest of meshing the communities and setting it up for months and months or even a year or so from now once Koreans do go to SC2 and LoL, you would understand my feeling for a need of beta testing. Not only beta testing, market research. I have a general idea of the foreigner thinking on ideas like this, and you might on the Korean, but no one has posted any support of such a thing besides Jaev, and well I posted what I feel about his idea.
Edit: I also emphasized a minority of Koreans to foreigners. Literally like 1:6 - 1:8 is the only thing foreseeable for success in my eyes. Obviously if it worked out, we could work our way into higher minorities. Sorry that I keep calling Koreans minorities
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What about a foreigner competition/qualifier with a smaller prize to see who makes it on the "foreigner" team (every season), which is part of the bigger global league with a larger prize pool (which can be individual or team based).
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On May 01 2012 10:40 L3gendary wrote:
What about a foreigner competition/qualifier with a smaller prize to see who makes it on the "foreigner" team (every season), which is part of the bigger global league with a larger prize pool (which can be individual or team based).
Are you proposing having a qualifier for a foreign team for a global clan league? Because if it was individual, it wouldn't be a foreigner team. Also, I like the qualifier idea, but think it'd have to be short. It's not about the level of play, most of the active foreign BW community is very clearly defined and we know who the best players are. It'd simply be testing the point of interest.
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Korea (South)11570 Posts
Like I said, I'm willing to organize anything that has to do with Koreans.
If people are interested in korean events, I can get VODs or replays (sometimes). If Foreigners are interested in starting a team for the fish clan league, I can help set it up. If foreigners are interested in a show match vs korean amateurs or ex-pro gamers I can set it up.
I admit I don't follow foreign starcraft at all. I don't know who the good foreign players are, and I haven't played iccup beyond gem league in a long long time. I played on fish solely for the past year, and brainclan for a year or two before that.
If people are interested in watching high level gaming for their own entertainment using their own hard earned money then I will do whatever I can to make it happen. If they want to see JoeSmith55 play against a 1500+ (I think that's really low of an ELO personally to warrant a showmatch for money, but that's my own opinion) Korean then I will do what I can.
I didn't say I was going to do this blind, I was peaking interest and if people were interested in donating / helping out / watching then we would have somewhere to go.
But we already have quite a bit of foreign only events (ISL, Gambit Cups, etc...) and if people want to see the highest level matches they can when no more BW is playing on the professional level, then this can be a way to do it.
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On May 01 2012 10:42 Game wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 10:40 L3gendary wrote:
What about a foreigner competition/qualifier with a smaller prize to see who makes it on the "foreigner" team (every season), which is part of the bigger global league with a larger prize pool (which can be individual or team based). Are you proposing having a qualifier for a foreign team for a global clan league? Because if it was individual, it wouldn't be a foreigner team. Also, I like the qualifier idea, but think it'd have to be short. It's not about the level of play, most of the active foreign BW community is very clearly defined and we know who the best players are. It'd simply be testing the point of interest.
It's really semantics. If it's a clan league then the winners would compose the foreign team, if it's an individual league then the winners would be the qualified foreigners. And yes, it would have to be short. It would be like any qualifier but with an added incentive. But it should also be treated as its own tournament so that it receives attention.
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Looks like some one is biased against korean .
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On May 01 2012 10:10 Game wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 10:03 CaucasianAsian wrote:
Well Game, if you have a better idea then please let me know. Keeping foreigners separate can not be a good idea and instead will just dwindle out the community even more which is the impression I'm getting off of you. There are a few foreigners who can compete against some top amateur koreans which I would love to actually compete.
I have a good relationship with various korean teams, who show interest in the idea of somehow incorporating foreigners. The Koreans scene does not take an anti-foreigner approach, instead they want to embrace it however language barriers play a huge role in the seperation of the leagues. There are various approaches we can take to fix the time zone differences, and the majority of foreigners who actually wants to practice at a high level normally plays during Korean hours, so it will not be too difficult to fix any time zone issues. I'm well aware. Until foreign teams started paying me, I played 99% of my games on West and BrainClan. I understand their attitude, and it is indeed a minority that want to play with white players, and it's not limited to the language barrier. In fact, half of the ones who do want to play with white players want one of the following three: 1) Fans 2) To bully somebody 3) To troll them (typically with perversion). I do indeed consider myself a pillar of the foreign community, and thus yes I do strive to enhance it in every way possible with the resources I have. I don't strictly want to keep the community foreign, but I also don't want to throw money at Koreans to play with us that could be better used in the foreign community. 1) Yellow vs White showmatches 2) A foreign team to play individual clan wars with teams. <-- why is this so different than what Jaev wants? Because it's something that has the necessity of building. Bringing the top foreigners to play a Korean team that would bring the middle and lower ranks, with one good player to supervise and play the last match if necessary. Beat them --> establish even the slightest bit of respect so we could have individual casts and exposure for these clan wars, and have the entire community rally behind one good, solid cause. 3) Invite a minority of Koreans into a majority foreign league. Test out the culture, time zones, and if foreigners can even compete against 1500 Fish players in tournament play. I mean I have plenty of ideas, I just think yours is really, really bad and detrimental to any effort that would secure a foundation between foreign and Korean BW. Sorry if I've offended you, but it's just how I see it.
On point 1: This is exactly what I suggested we do to CA in a PM 2 days ago.
Get in touch with a really good amateur semi-pro and we'll pit him against one of the best foreigners we can find. Sziky, pro7ect, micheal, jumper, someone like that.
It'll have a better story line and it'll feel like something's on the line for everyone.
On point 2: This is in the same vein of thought that I had, (in the sense of steadily upping the ante. As you put it: beta testing) but do we even have a team that could go anywhere near what even the weakest Korean Clan could put up? I think we'd have to put together another FAT.
On Point 3: I saw this kind of thing as closer to a Step 2. Something more like invite 6 foreigners and 2 koreans to an 8 man one weekend tourney.
I think we're pretty much on the same page here.
On a side note: I think CA should be the lead on this project as 1) he's already taken the initiative 2) we need a bilingual lead for a bilingual project and 3) He'll listen to our feedback.
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There will never be no professional BW. Also, maltey, I hope I didn't give you the idea that I wanted to hijack any project or even organize it, I was simply giving constructive feedback for something I'd have interest in keeping a close eye on.
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On May 01 2012 10:45 CaucasianAsian wrote:
Like I said, I'm willing to organize anything that has to do with Koreans.
If people are interested in korean events, I can get VODs or replays (sometimes). If Foreigners are interested in starting a team for the fish clan league, I can help set it up. If foreigners are interested in a show match vs korean amateurs or ex-pro gamers I can set it up.
I admit I don't follow foreign starcraft at all. I don't know who the good foreign players are, and I haven't played iccup beyond gem league in a long long time. I played on fish solely for the past year, and brainclan for a year or two before that.
If people are interested in watching high level gaming for their own entertainment using their own hard earned money then I will do whatever I can to make it happen. If they want to see JoeSmith55 play against a 1500+ (I think that's really low of an ELO personally to warrant a showmatch for money, but that's my own opinion) Korean then I will do what I can.
I didn't say I was going to do this blind, I was peaking interest and if people were interested in donating / helping out / watching then we would have somewhere to go.
But we already have quite a bit of foreign only events (ISL, Gambit Cups, etc...) and if people want to see the highest level matches they can when no more BW is playing on the professional level, then this can be a way to do it.
I agree with CaucasianAsian. We might have lost most of the good foreigner players and even tournaments to sc2 (TSL etc.) but we still have some foreign only tourneys and events. Game, along with others, have done remarkable work keeping those alive.
The true thing that many of us fear losing is the professional sc1 Korean scene and broadcasts. To me this thread is about keeping the spirit of that alive and available to foreigners to watch. This might just mean finding better ways to tune into Korean amateur tournaments that are already going on (and possibly donating to them). It might mean funding our own tourney for the Koreans to play in. Either would mean crossing a lot of cultural barriers.
I honestly don't know why its so hard for foreigners to access fish/afreeka. It seems the Koreans have no interest in making themselves available to us either through ignorance, apathy, or national pride (sc is Korean sport, gtfo everyone else). At the end of the day it doesn't really matter what reason it is, that's where the money comes in. If we make it clear we are willing to pay to watch high level bw, I'm confident that will change most of their attitudes.
To start off that money is going to have to come mostly, if not entirely, from viewer donations. I think we all agree we don't want a pay wall since we want to grow viewership, not kill it. While that model might actually be sustainable, I am personally hoping that we could actually grow viewership to the point that advertisers would be tempted to take over, or at least help. Either way, that is a long way off and it'ss assuming the KR progamers fully switch over to sc2 (I personally am still hoping they switch back to sc1 after this one year, and none of this will matter but I know its wishful thinking)
The thing I will agree with Game about is mixing the foreigners in. As much as I would LOVE to see our best players at least take a game off of the top KR amateurs, it just isn't going to happen. I certainly wouldn't bar them from entering but only invite them if they have a legit chance of winning a BO3-BO5. A 50-50 mix would mean so many walkovers it would just be a waste of time for everyone.
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The polls show $720 in feasible contributions. Only if polls weren't anonymous...
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On May 01 2012 13:13 Game wrote:
There will never be no professional BW. Also, maltey, I hope I didn't give you the idea that I wanted to hijack any project or even organize it, I was simply giving constructive feedback for something I'd have interest in keeping a close eye on.
Oh hell no. Not at all. I've misinterpreted a few of your posts but I think I understand where you're coming from now.
I just want people in general to recognize CA has taken point on this and is the natural lead (I know I sure as hell ain't ). Maybe I'm wrong. It was more like a nomination thing. And I have no gripes at all with your involvement and appreciate what you've done so far. The back-and-forth has helped clarify my thought process even if we don't agree at all times.
On May 01 2012 13:17 CakeOrI)eath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 10:45 CaucasianAsian wrote:
Like I said, I'm willing to organize anything that has to do with Koreans.
If people are interested in korean events, I can get VODs or replays (sometimes). If Foreigners are interested in starting a team for the fish clan league, I can help set it up. If foreigners are interested in a show match vs korean amateurs or ex-pro gamers I can set it up.
I admit I don't follow foreign starcraft at all. I don't know who the good foreign players are, and I haven't played iccup beyond gem league in a long long time. I played on fish solely for the past year, and brainclan for a year or two before that.
If people are interested in watching high level gaming for their own entertainment using their own hard earned money then I will do whatever I can to make it happen. If they want to see JoeSmith55 play against a 1500+ (I think that's really low of an ELO personally to warrant a showmatch for money, but that's my own opinion) Korean then I will do what I can.
I didn't say I was going to do this blind, I was peaking interest and if people were interested in donating / helping out / watching then we would have somewhere to go.
But we already have quite a bit of foreign only events (ISL, Gambit Cups, etc...) and if people want to see the highest level matches they can when no more BW is playing on the professional level, then this can be a way to do it. I agree with CaucasianAsian. We might have lost most of the good foreigner players and even tournaments to sc2 (TSL etc.) but we still have some foreign only tourneys and events. Game, along with others, have done remarkable work keeping those alive. The true thing that many of us fear losing is the professional sc1 Korean scene and broadcasts. To me this thread is about keeping the spirit of that alive and available to foreigners to watch. This might just mean finding better ways to tune into Korean amateur tournaments that are already going on (and possibly donating to them). It might mean funding our own tourney for the Koreans to play in. Either would mean crossing a lot of cultural barriers. I honestly don't know why its so hard for foreigners to access fish/afreeka. It seems the Koreans have no interest in making themselves available to us either through ignorance, apathy, or national pride (sc is Korean sport, gtfo everyone else). At the end of the day it doesn't really matter what reason it is, that's where the money comes in. If we make it clear we are willing to pay to watch high level bw, I'm confident that will change most of their attitudes. To start off that money is going to have to come mostly, if not entirely, from viewer donations. I think we all agree we don't want a pay wall since we want to grow viewership, not kill it. While that model might actually be sustainable, I am personally hoping that we could actually grow viewership to the point that advertisers would be tempted to take over, or at least help. Either way, that is a long way off and it'ss assuming the KR progamers fully switch over to sc2 (I personally am still hoping they switch back to sc1 after this one year, and none of this will matter but I know its wishful thinking) The thing I will agree with Game about is mixing the foreigners in. As much as I would LOVE to see our best players at least take a game off of the top KR amateurs, it just isn't going to happen. I certainly wouldn't bar them from entering but only invite them if they have a legit chance of winning a BO3-BO5. A 50-50 mix would mean so many walkovers it would just be a waste of time for everyone.
THIS. I can't agree more with this post. The main impetus--for me, at least--behind putting foreigners in is because now there's the opportunity where there wasn't before and having foreigners involved has the potential to attract more fans.
EDIT: I put this in the OP as I feel it captures everything we are trying to do.
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I wish BW would never die, I know I'll be playing this game in my old age regardless of PRO BW. It will always live on in my heart.
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When I'm a professional with a wife and kids, I'll be hunting down the remaining 5,000 players and when I can't find them, I'll play 1v6 computers on Hunters like a boss.
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It makes me depressed to see everyone retiring or moving to SC2...I think I'm still in denial and the truth hasn't set in yet.
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The reality that no one has left since the original SC2 wave, we still have BW proleague and OSL? You're living it sir, believe it or not!
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On May 01 2012 13:17 CakeOrI)eath wrote:
I personally am still hoping they switch back to sc1 after this one year
I also have such a feeling that it is most likely going to happen...
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On May 01 2012 16:51 AleXoundOS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 13:17 CakeOrI)eath wrote:
I personally am still hoping they switch back to sc1 after this one year I also have such a feeling that it is most likely going to happen...
All we can do is make the bes of what we have at the moment. I feel like so many great ideas have been introduced and constructed in this thread that there's no reason to rule BW off as dead or dying. Sure, we might have hit a plateau in players and interest, but the people who care the most about the game are still left and that's all that matters. I for one will continue to play until I can't hit the F2 button easily, despite the fact that I may never get to even 1100 on Fish or above C- on iCCup. The game is just too damn good.
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On May 01 2012 16:51 AleXoundOS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 13:17 CakeOrI)eath wrote:
I personally am still hoping they switch back to sc1 after this one year I also have such a feeling that it is most likely going to happen...
It would make sense. Can't play SC2 in PC bangs, so no one in Korea gives a crap.
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On May 02 2012 00:45 eeniebear wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 16:51 AleXoundOS wrote:On May 01 2012 13:17 CakeOrI)eath wrote:
I personally am still hoping they switch back to sc1 after this one year I also have such a feeling that it is most likely going to happen... It would make sense. Can't play SC2 in PC bangs, so no one in Korea gives a crap.
Money > number of players
Money > quality of players
Money > quality of game design
Money > whatever Koreans actually want
If these weren't true, then Proleague never would be trying this sc1-sc2 mixed thing. Sc1 is still FAR more popular in KR. Unfortunately, that isn't true for the rest of the world. The business executives and sponsors don't see much growth potential in Korea since the market is already close to saturated. Sc2 has seen an explosion in the foreign esports scene and the Koreans don't want to be left behind. They already have the organization and infrastructure to take advantage of all the foreign money being thrown at sc2, so they are trying to do it, even if no one in Korea gives a crap.
While I know a small community of mostly poor students (TL) can't come close to competing with the funding that sc2 is getting now, I want this project to show the Koreans that foreigners are interested and willing to pay for more than just sc2. If we can convince them of that, then maybe just maybe they can convince their sponsors to keep sc1 around.
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United Kingdom1667 Posts
On May 01 2012 07:11 CaucasianAsian wrote:
I'm going to have some free time after thursday, and I really want to start something up such as a global starleague, with a mixture of high level koreans and foreigners. As such, I would like to plan this out with other people, and figure out the best way to invite players, and what criteria we should use. I can set up a paypal or something similar for those who are interested in donating to the prize pool (100% of donations will go to the prize pool). Either way, I'd like to actually put this into motion and start a skype group or something similar for those of us who want to take part in the organization of the tournament. If you're interested in helping out please PM me with your skype information.
I've decided I'd like to help. Will PM you
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People please be constructive and think for ideas on the topic, stop mourning and being sad, this will not help in our cause, it will make things worst, so stop diluting the thread.
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So here are my thoughts... maybe a little overeager, but well...just trying to thing constructive and BIG :-)
1) Things will need to be done professional and fast, before too much interest in BW dies off in the foreign scene and Korea and too much players vanish
2) You need to found a company or a non-profit organization at best in Korea, as most people watching would probably be Koreans (at least at the beginning). Possibly best in an area where a lot of BW stuff still happens. So you need someone who can do this in Korea. This also is the first step to be taken serious. Hardly any company will sponsor a private person organizing things like this.
3) You need to make everything bilangual, so you need commentators in Korean and English and a website written in both languages
And then the fun starts...
4) Trying to coninve some teams to give it a shot. Either by putting out a good price pool or by just convincing them :-).
5) The best would be to rent some studio time to be able to broadcast the matches live. This should generate and keep more interest in the long run. Though it would have the requirement of investing money to pay the rent, pay people starting from commentators to cameramen (you maybe could get commentators voluntary and cameramen, regiseurs, etc... from university projects voluntarily :-)). But it must not be too amateurish. If made purely online you would only need commentators.
Money for the above things could come from donations like kickstarter or something.
6) Then you would need to find a way to generate money to for the prize pool, maybe people working, streaming, equipement, rent(?). People paying for BW like with a montly ticket is unlikely, as they are used to view it freely. Operating on donations is quite risky, but can provide a certain amount of income (also depending on how generous korean people are). Donations would maybe be enough to start out with a prize pool and an online tournament. If you get enough people interested and watching then you can go out and try to find sponsor (for example for commercials or personal sponsoring) with your viewer data.
There is also the option to earn some money through youtubes partner program (non profits do have a special treatment there; partner get around 0.01$ per channel view and 2.5 to 5$ per 1000 viewers for a video), twitchtv with its commercials, etc. Biggest problem there is to get either the koreans to go to these streams/videos or find something equal in korea.
7) You will need to get more people interested in watching BW. This could be done with standard promotion like handing out those advertisment sheet in the street, by posting forums and blogs, etc...
A good way would be trying to get high class BW games being played at other e-sports events foreign (imho one of the biggest chances to advertise foreign BW) and in Korea. Maybe like SC2 events - please don't kill me here :-)). Now you can cross your fingers and hope that you can get enough traction to attract better teams/players. This would be the critical point imho deciding the success.
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Korea (South)11570 Posts
What you are talking about is creating another gom studio, which just isn't plausible.
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Sponsors enjoy investing into events of high value that can attract the most of the fans. The studio thing can be viable but is also very expansive. The crucial thing you forgot to mention is that in order to gather a large enough audience, you need players. Since all of them are spread apart in different corners of the world, you are also required to pay for their travelling fees. In terms of set up, we are already looking at a price way over the thousands. Now with the additions of the plane tickets, that is almost guaranteed to be 3 thousands. No sponsors are willing to take so many risks in funding such events. Most importantly, you need to carefully choose the location of the venue in which you mentioned to be South Korea.
Now here is what I am purposing. The one thing that studio offer is to have the convenience of observing the players as they are in game due to the fact that it can create priceless moment of epic proportions much like the Hiya’s O-face or the GGameo’s mine reaction. But you can totally emulate these moments by simply having the players to show their faces in webcams while playing.
I know that some of you may really doubt the quality of equipment and such with the lenses. To alleviate such problems, as more and more viewers shows up in the live streams to spectate the players, the more publicity these tournament will receive. With enough numbers, we can contact companies like Logitech to sponsor players by augmenting the pixel’s crispness while on live.
Lets get back to the idea. And after each game, you can have the players join up in the chatroom to connect with the fans in a Q and A formats. And by the look of it, we are in the process of bridging up the Korean amateur league and the foreign scenes. So that’s where the translators come in play. The players can give tips to their fellow followers on how to do better at specific matchups, the mindset to practice, etc. This will results in many more people in elevating their skills and keep their interests. In a sense, we are completely renewing the scene. Gradually, the foreign audience will see an amelioration in crowds.
But all these have to done with meticulously designed layout in the stream. So artworks are very much welcomed by the community. I would say that to get the entire infrastructure prepared, this will cost next to nothing. The problem left for us is the monetary motivation.
Jobs available:
- casters in both English and Korean to captivate fans
- middle men to handle the relationship between the communities in scheduling and other affaires
- Cheerfuls artist
- Participant players
- Good layout setting, the casters need to have one computer completely dedicated to Starcraft in lowering the lag
- Marketers to properly explain to the sponsors how everything is set up
If everything goes accordingly, Kespa can maybe still realize BW’s potential internationally.
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Korea (South)11570 Posts
What you guys are talking about is just simply not feasible.
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Korea (South)11570 Posts
Don't get me wrong, that would sound amazing and fun, but the market just doesn't exist for someone to feasibly quit their job, or school to work on this project for the hope that it ends up working. There just isn't enough resources.
Let alone the money aspect which in itself makes this impossible, it just is not in anyone's right interest beyond a spectators (who enjoys it) to actually work on renting out a studio, paying people to help production, supporting airfare, hotel, food, and travel of players, P.R. work, organizing, contacting the players, finding casters, orchestrating everything, etc...
It's simply just not possible.
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On May 05 2012 11:41 CaucasianAsian wrote:
What you guys are talking about is just simply not feasible.
What getting players from the foreign and Korean community face off against each other live casted by commentators of both languages while having them show their faces and a little bit of Q and A session at the end is not feasible? In Live in 3, we’ve seen Dj’wheat doing this all the time with no problem. The whole set up literally shouldn’t cost anything more than the basic electricity/internet bill and the Webcam from the players and the commentators. I think you said it yourself that the two community can find a method to be playing at the same time zone. Beside these, the only worry is the sponsor money in which it is completely possible with good viewership.
We can even have the OSL prelim type of format so anyone can get into the tournament. Then the replays shall be left available for people to see and vote on which top 10 to be casted. Later on, a group selection can be added as well with the players. And to even bring more hype to the plays, the participant themselves can request songs for their entrance much like the proleague. I can totally see us having 3 of this type of event occurring per annum. The sponsors really only need to offer up the price money.
On May 05 2012 11:44 CaucasianAsian wrote:
Don't get me wrong, that would sound amazing and fun, but the market just doesn't exist for someone to feasibly quit their job, or school to work on this project for the hope that it ends up working. There just isn't enough resources.
Let alone the money aspect which in itself makes this impossible, it just is not in anyone's right interest beyond a spectators (who enjoys it) to actually work on renting out a studio, paying people to help production, supporting airfare, hotel, food, and travel of players, P.R. work, organizing, contacting the players, finding casters, orchestrating everything, etc...
It's simply just not possible.
Woah, I did not mention those in any of my posts.
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Korea (South)11570 Posts
That is all that entails such an event. A studio is not possible. It would be possible to do everything online. But doing a LAN event is not feasible.
A TSL 1 / 2 style event is possible.
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Please keep the discussion going. Anyone actively wanting to strengthen the BW scene, lets pool our resources and come up with something. We have additional tournaments on the table, but we need to get a player pool and a crew of casters/organizers to work together. We're kind of trying to make the foreigner fan-created-and-supported KeSPA if we want to remain a decently strong scene.
Skype or msg info is welcome too for coordinating between us. I have no access to the game right now but I should be getting a new computer in the next 10 days.
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I'll try to update op soon so that focuses purely on organizing now.
Since game got temp banned i have no one to argue with now ;;
Also i need to get a skype account and a mike apparently
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Whether you like Game or not, he's the one of the most well-connected and knowledgeable organizers you could ask for and he'll be a valuable resource in our efforts.
We should really be putting aside our differences for now for the sake of the scene we know and love.
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If you end up having an event, you should require Koreans to stream
X amount of hours on twitch In order to qualify.
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I think the most feasible thing we can have going in the near future is a fairly large amount of small tournaments, with some regular (like the defiler cup) and some kind of whenever (like my own brand :3), mixed in with the occassional ISL-sized tournament. And then from there we can kind of grow. It's just a matter of keeping realistic expectations. An OSL sized event in a few weeks ain't happening. But we could grow to the point of having 4-5 ISL-sized tournaments in 2013, and at least $200 in prize money a month besides them in small tournaments. That's a realistic goal.
What we need are
A. A directioned passion to help the foreign scene grow.
B. And end to the moping, and a positive outlook to growth. Yes, the foreign scene is small right now, but that just means it's easy to double it!
C. SPONSORS. ISL has big sponsors like Twitch and Altitude. Make a point to let them know you're happy they're doing it, because it makes them more likely to do it again. But even small sponsors are helpful, because it helps stabalize the scene. I think someone trusted should start fundraising for small weekly or bi-weekly tournaments. We can't support people playing BW full-time right now, but $100 in prize money is about $10hr for 10 hours of practice/playing. You could be playing BW part time in the not-to-distant future as a source of income.
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On May 07 2012 16:00 sCCrooked wrote:
Whether you like Game or not, he's the one of the most well-connected and knowledgeable organizers you could ask for and he'll be a valuable resource in our efforts.
We should really be putting aside our differences for now for the sake of the scene we know and love.
Agreed. And I really don't have a problem with Game. I just like to argue with him.
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On May 07 2012 16:32 Ribbon wrote:
I think the most feasible thing we can have going in the near future is a fairly large amount of small tournaments, with some regular (like the defiler cup) and some kind of whenever (like my own brand :3), mixed in with the occassional ISL-sized tournament. And then from there we can kind of grow.
Couldn't agree more with this sort of format. Its realistic and something we could get going within even 1-2 months from now. Any chances we can get more sponsorship is just more icing on the cake.
We can't support people playing BW full-time right now, but $100 in prize money is about $10hr for 10 hours of practice/playing. You could be playing BW part time in the not-to-distant future as a source of income.
Just reading this got me all excited and wanting to practice to A rank. I really hope to see the top 100 or so being able to make a little income off their hard work in the near future.
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I figure this is as good place as any to post this. I started up BW today to play some games after not playing any BW for over a year. So I log on to iccup to play some games, Find a good game pretty quick but something is quite off. The game feels really sluggish to play like there is some huge delay on everything. In my memory the best part about BW was that everything responded so quick. Is it the Iccup server going to shit or are my memory failing me?
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Korea (South)11570 Posts
are you using the launcher with lan latency?
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Yes, is it not working anymore?
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Korea (South)11570 Posts
lag can always occur, try a game in single player or LAN against a computer and see if it's still laggy. Other things to note, skype and youtube cause my game to lag my game quite a bit. Maybe closing those will fix it?
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Ok, it seams like every game on iccup must lag like shit... played some single player and it was just as smooth and amazing as I remember. I have really good internet and pretty much only have mumble going in the background stealing my internet so the lag is probably not coming from my end but is there anything I can do to improve the situation?
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Well, I can talk to few Korean clans since I am member of 3.33 clan in west.
3.33 do not care anything about KeSPA transitioning into SC2 because majority population of South Korea still play BW.
Because they play for fun rofl.
But I dont know about other clan, and I will try to see how they are planning to do so.
I do believe that when KeSPA completely changes to SC2, clans from BW will also transition to SC2 because those famous clans love to take care of some amateur players who want to become progamers.
Also, I would love to cast in both language, Korean and English.
If there are tournaments with some prize, it could be easier to bring players from Afreeca, like Anytime, Sky, mong[name], etc. Casting in live could be very difficult unless caster or streamer live in Korea where it does not cause any lag. So tournaments in summer and winter should be great because a lot of people go back to Korea at those times for their vacation, like me. SUMMER KOREA GOGOGOGOOGOG
i hope these pathetic opinions can somewhat contribute to save BW.
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On May 08 2012 07:44 Messi wrote:
Well, I can talk to few Korean clans since I am member of 3.33 clan in west.
3.33 do not care anything about KeSPA transitioning into SC2 because majority population of South Korea still play BW.
Because they play for fun rofl.
But I dont know about other clan, and I will try to see how they are planning to do so.
I do believe that when KeSPA completely changes to SC2, clans from BW will also transition to SC2 because those famous clans love to take care of some amateur players who want to become progamers.
Also, I would love to cast in both language, Korean and English.
If there are tournaments with some prize, it could be easier to bring players from Afreeca, like Anytime, Sky, mong[name], etc. Casting in live could be very difficult unless caster or streamer live in Korea where it does not cause any lag. So tournaments in summer and winter should be great because a lot of people go back to Korea at those times for their vacation, like me. SUMMER KOREA GOGOGOGOOGOG
i hope these pathetic opinions can somewhat contribute to save BW.
We'll take any support available.
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On May 08 2012 07:05 Zerum wrote:
Ok, it seams like every game on iccup must lag like shit... played some single player and it was just as smooth and amazing as I remember. I have really good internet and pretty much only have mumble going in the background stealing my internet so the lag is probably not coming from my end but is there anything I can do to improve the situation?
If the game lags you should change the Network settings (F10) to high or extremely high. That's usually enough to make the game smooth. I only have to do this like every 10th game though, so I'm not sure why you're having these issues.
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EPT
