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It's Well played!
BW For Life! or Helping BW Thrive - Page 8
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Game
3191 Posts
Well played! | ||
CaucasianAsian
Korea (South)11602 Posts
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maltey
United States38 Posts
On May 01 2012 07:11 CaucasianAsian wrote: I'm going to have some free time after thursday, and I really want to start something up such as a global starleague, with a mixture of high level koreans and foreigners. As such, I would like to plan this out with other people, and figure out the best way to invite players, and what criteria we should use. I can set up a paypal or something similar for those who are interested in donating to the prize pool (100% of donations will go to the prize pool). Either way, I'd like to actually put this into motion and start a skype group or something similar for those of us who want to take part in the organization of the tournament. If you're interested in helping out please PM me with your skype information. You are my hero sir! @game haha thanks. I check every post to see if they have "sweden" next to their name now. | ||
ImbaTosS
United Kingdom1733 Posts
On May 01 2012 07:11 CaucasianAsian wrote: I'm going to have some free time after thursday, and I really want to start something up such as a global starleague, with a mixture of high level koreans and foreigners. As such, I would like to plan this out with other people, and figure out the best way to invite players, and what criteria we should use. I can set up a paypal or something similar for those who are interested in donating to the prize pool (100% of donations will go to the prize pool). Either way, I'd like to actually put this into motion and start a skype group or something similar for those of us who want to take part in the organization of the tournament. If you're interested in helping out please PM me with your skype information. I'm very, very pleased you've decided to do this. I may volunteer in a week's time, when my schedule is more clear. BW people, please help this man. | ||
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Game
3191 Posts
On May 01 2012 07:11 CaucasianAsian wrote: I'm going to have some free time after thursday, and I really want to start something up such as a global starleague, with a mixture of high level koreans and foreigners. As such, I would like to plan this out with other people, and figure out the best way to invite players, and what criteria we should use. I can set up a paypal or something similar for those who are interested in donating to the prize pool (100% of donations will go to the prize pool). Either way, I'd like to actually put this into motion and start a skype group or something similar for those of us who want to take part in the organization of the tournament. If you're interested in helping out please PM me with your skype information. I actually don't see how this would be beneficial. Without flaw it'd end up being top 3 foreigners vs all of Korea's amateurs, inevitably having the foreigners eliminated before any important stage of the league. It'd pretty much be a Korean league, so I feel that's a way of impeding on other foreigner based tournaments. If the purpose was to get the foreign community to rally behind foreigners, there are much more effective ways of doing this. Not to mention, the timezones make it increasingly difficult to have competent gaming by the foreigners since you'd have to cater to the Koreans. | ||
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CaucasianAsian
Korea (South)11602 Posts
Time zones can be dealt with, as can most of the issues. I don't know about other people, but the foreign scene in my opinion is lacking. There's just little to no skill left. Koreans on the other hand continue to surprise me. I enjoy watching the highest level games as I can, and if that includes Koreans then you better know that I'll be watching Koreans as opposed to foreigners. If a foreigner believes he can compete with high level Koreans, then I'd be damn sure to root for him. I want to bring the korean scene to the foreign scene. There's no reason to keep it divided given how small the foreign scene is, and how small the korean scene will become after OSL and proleague switch. | ||
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Game
3191 Posts
On May 01 2012 09:40 CaucasianAsian wrote: So TL fans won't enjoy high level koreans is that what you're saying? Time zones can be dealt with, as can most of the issues. I didn't say they won't. You pitched it as a global starleague incorporating foreigners, knowing this would be foreign funded. The fact is, foreigners would be exclusively eliminated in the first stages. TL members love Koreans, this site was built on Koreans, but your pitch is in fact only about them and thus I felt the need to point that out. Time zones really can't be dealt with, no time is ideal for foreigners to actively participate at a level in which we'd want to expose them, even the best. With Korea being 7 hours ahead of foreign times, it'd have to be on a weekend. Koreans typically don't play leagues past 10PM, meaning it'd have to start around 7pm, noon for Europeans. While that's feasible, you automatically exclude all of the Western hemisphere, and I'm pretty sure that wouldn't sit well in a community in which half of it resides. No league with Koreans is feasible for foreigners unless they are aiming to go to Korea to play the game eventually, other than that it's simply bending over and taking it. The aesthetics are just not favorable to meet a common goal of getting good Korean BW and rallying behind foreign players. Edit to your edit: I don't think insulting the community that you want to incorporate into Korean gaming is really a good way to gain support. Also, the skill gap, as you mentioned, is way too high, and foreigners unlike Koreans (at least the good foreigners) are way too old to re-learn the game or gain a significant level of play to create a multitude of competitive gamers. The Koreans historically, and to this day try to not to participate on our servers or with us in general even when we go to them. It's clear they have always wanted nothing to do with us, and bribing them to come play with the down syndrome kids isn't exactly amazing. | ||
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CaucasianAsian
Korea (South)11602 Posts
I have a good relationship with various korean teams, who show interest in the idea of somehow incorporating foreigners. The Koreans scene does not take an anti-foreigner approach, instead they want to embrace it however language barriers play a huge role in the seperation of the leagues. There are various approaches we can take to fix the time zone differences, and the majority of foreigners who actually wants to practice at a high level normally plays during Korean hours, so it will not be too difficult to fix any time zone issues. | ||
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Game
3191 Posts
On May 01 2012 10:03 CaucasianAsian wrote: Well Game, if you have a better idea then please let me know. Keeping foreigners separate can not be a good idea and instead will just dwindle out the community even more which is the impression I'm getting off of you. There are a few foreigners who can compete against some top amateur koreans which I would love to actually compete. I have a good relationship with various korean teams, who show interest in the idea of somehow incorporating foreigners. The Koreans scene does not take an anti-foreigner approach, instead they want to embrace it however language barriers play a huge role in the seperation of the leagues. There are various approaches we can take to fix the time zone differences, and the majority of foreigners who actually wants to practice at a high level normally plays during Korean hours, so it will not be too difficult to fix any time zone issues. I'm well aware. Until foreign teams started paying me, I played 99% of my games on West and BrainClan. I understand their attitude, and it is indeed a minority that want to play with white players, and it's not limited to the language barrier. In fact, half of the ones who do want to play with white players want one of the following three: 1) Fans 2) To bully somebody 3) To troll them (typically with perversion). I do indeed consider myself a pillar of the foreign community, and thus yes I do strive to enhance it in every way possible with the resources I have. I don't strictly want to keep the community foreign, but I also don't want to throw money at Koreans to play with us that could be better used in the foreign community. 1) Yellow vs White showmatches 2) A foreign team to play individual clan wars with teams. <-- why is this so different than what Jaev wants? Because it's something that has the necessity of building. Bringing the top foreigners to play a Korean team that would bring the middle and lower ranks, with one good player to supervise and play the last match if necessary. Beat them --> establish even the slightest bit of respect so we could have individual casts and exposure for these clan wars, and have the entire community rally behind one good, solid cause. 3) Invite a minority of Koreans into a majority foreign league. Test out the culture, time zones, and if foreigners can even compete against 1500 Fish players in tournament play. I mean I have plenty of ideas, I just think yours is really, really bad and detrimental to any effort that would secure a foundation between foreign and Korean BW. Sorry if I've offended you, but it's just how I see it. | ||
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Game
3191 Posts
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CaucasianAsian
Korea (South)11602 Posts
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Game
3191 Posts
On May 01 2012 10:31 CaucasianAsian wrote: how is my idea any different than #3? I said a mixture of koreans and foreigners, i didn't say 50-50 My #3 was really a followup to #1, I should've stressed the importance of the order. We haven't had anything conclusive proving it'd be a good use of people's hard earned money of foreigners vs Koreans in almost 5 years. Five years ago, foreigners got slaughtered. If you genuinely had the interest of meshing the communities and setting it up for months and months or even a year or so from now once Koreans do go to SC2 and LoL, you would understand my feeling for a need of beta testing. Not only beta testing, market research. I have a general idea of the foreigner thinking on ideas like this, and you might on the Korean, but no one has posted any support of such a thing besides Jaev, and well I posted what I feel about his idea. Edit: I also emphasized a minority of Koreans to foreigners. Literally like 1:6 - 1:8 is the only thing foreseeable for success in my eyes. Obviously if it worked out, we could work our way into higher minorities. Sorry that I keep calling Koreans minorities  | ||
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L3gendary
Canada1470 Posts
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Game
3191 Posts
On May 01 2012 10:40 L3gendary wrote: What about a foreigner competition/qualifier with a smaller prize to see who makes it on the "foreigner" team (every season), which is part of the bigger global league with a larger prize pool (which can be individual or team based). Are you proposing having a qualifier for a foreign team for a global clan league? Because if it was individual, it wouldn't be a foreigner team. Also, I like the qualifier idea, but think it'd have to be short. It's not about the level of play, most of the active foreign BW community is very clearly defined and we know who the best players are. It'd simply be testing the point of interest. | ||
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CaucasianAsian
Korea (South)11602 Posts
If people are interested in korean events, I can get VODs or replays (sometimes). If Foreigners are interested in starting a team for the fish clan league, I can help set it up. If foreigners are interested in a show match vs korean amateurs or ex-pro gamers I can set it up. I admit I don't follow foreign starcraft at all. I don't know who the good foreign players are, and I haven't played iccup beyond gem league in a long long time. I played on fish solely for the past year, and brainclan for a year or two before that. If people are interested in watching high level gaming for their own entertainment using their own hard earned money then I will do whatever I can to make it happen. If they want to see JoeSmith55 play against a 1500+ (I think that's really low of an ELO personally to warrant a showmatch for money, but that's my own opinion) Korean then I will do what I can. I didn't say I was going to do this blind, I was peaking interest and if people were interested in donating / helping out / watching then we would have somewhere to go. But we already have quite a bit of foreign only events (ISL, Gambit Cups, etc...) and if people want to see the highest level matches they can when no more BW is playing on the professional level, then this can be a way to do it. | ||
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L3gendary
Canada1470 Posts
On May 01 2012 10:42 Game wrote: Are you proposing having a qualifier for a foreign team for a global clan league? Because if it was individual, it wouldn't be a foreigner team. Also, I like the qualifier idea, but think it'd have to be short. It's not about the level of play, most of the active foreign BW community is very clearly defined and we know who the best players are. It'd simply be testing the point of interest. It's really semantics. If it's a clan league then the winners would compose the foreign team, if it's an individual league then the winners would be the qualified foreigners. And yes, it would have to be short. It would be like any qualifier but with an added incentive. But it should also be treated as its own tournament so that it receives attention. | ||
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
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maltey
United States38 Posts
On May 01 2012 10:10 Game wrote: I'm well aware. Until foreign teams started paying me, I played 99% of my games on West and BrainClan. I understand their attitude, and it is indeed a minority that want to play with white players, and it's not limited to the language barrier. In fact, half of the ones who do want to play with white players want one of the following three: 1) Fans 2) To bully somebody 3) To troll them (typically with perversion). I do indeed consider myself a pillar of the foreign community, and thus yes I do strive to enhance it in every way possible with the resources I have. I don't strictly want to keep the community foreign, but I also don't want to throw money at Koreans to play with us that could be better used in the foreign community. 1) Yellow vs White showmatches 2) A foreign team to play individual clan wars with teams. <-- why is this so different than what Jaev wants? Because it's something that has the necessity of building. Bringing the top foreigners to play a Korean team that would bring the middle and lower ranks, with one good player to supervise and play the last match if necessary. Beat them --> establish even the slightest bit of respect so we could have individual casts and exposure for these clan wars, and have the entire community rally behind one good, solid cause. 3) Invite a minority of Koreans into a majority foreign league. Test out the culture, time zones, and if foreigners can even compete against 1500 Fish players in tournament play. I mean I have plenty of ideas, I just think yours is really, really bad and detrimental to any effort that would secure a foundation between foreign and Korean BW. Sorry if I've offended you, but it's just how I see it. On point 1: This is exactly what I suggested we do to CA in a PM 2 days ago. Get in touch with a really good amateur semi-pro and we'll pit him against one of the best foreigners we can find. Sziky, pro7ect, micheal, jumper, someone like that. It'll have a better story line and it'll feel like something's on the line for everyone. On point 2: This is in the same vein of thought that I had, (in the sense of steadily upping the ante. As you put it: beta testing) but do we even have a team that could go anywhere near what even the weakest Korean Clan could put up? I think we'd have to put together another FAT. On Point 3: I saw this kind of thing as closer to a Step 2. Something more like invite 6 foreigners and 2 koreans to an 8 man one weekend tourney. I think we're pretty much on the same page here. On a side note: I think CA should be the lead on this project as 1) he's already taken the initiative 2) we need a bilingual lead for a bilingual project and 3) He'll listen to our feedback. | ||
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Game
3191 Posts
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CakeOrI)eath
United States327 Posts
On May 01 2012 10:45 CaucasianAsian wrote: Like I said, I'm willing to organize anything that has to do with Koreans. If people are interested in korean events, I can get VODs or replays (sometimes). If Foreigners are interested in starting a team for the fish clan league, I can help set it up. If foreigners are interested in a show match vs korean amateurs or ex-pro gamers I can set it up. I admit I don't follow foreign starcraft at all. I don't know who the good foreign players are, and I haven't played iccup beyond gem league in a long long time. I played on fish solely for the past year, and brainclan for a year or two before that. If people are interested in watching high level gaming for their own entertainment using their own hard earned money then I will do whatever I can to make it happen. If they want to see JoeSmith55 play against a 1500+ (I think that's really low of an ELO personally to warrant a showmatch for money, but that's my own opinion) Korean then I will do what I can. I didn't say I was going to do this blind, I was peaking interest and if people were interested in donating / helping out / watching then we would have somewhere to go. But we already have quite a bit of foreign only events (ISL, Gambit Cups, etc...) and if people want to see the highest level matches they can when no more BW is playing on the professional level, then this can be a way to do it. I agree with CaucasianAsian. We might have lost most of the good foreigner players and even tournaments to sc2 (TSL etc.) but we still have some foreign only tourneys and events. Game, along with others, have done remarkable work keeping those alive. The true thing that many of us fear losing is the professional sc1 Korean scene and broadcasts. To me this thread is about keeping the spirit of that alive and available to foreigners to watch. This might just mean finding better ways to tune into Korean amateur tournaments that are already going on (and possibly donating to them). It might mean funding our own tourney for the Koreans to play in. Either would mean crossing a lot of cultural barriers. I honestly don't know why its so hard for foreigners to access fish/afreeka. It seems the Koreans have no interest in making themselves available to us either through ignorance, apathy, or national pride (sc is Korean sport, gtfo everyone else). At the end of the day it doesn't really matter what reason it is, that's where the money comes in. If we make it clear we are willing to pay to watch high level bw, I'm confident that will change most of their attitudes. To start off that money is going to have to come mostly, if not entirely, from viewer donations. I think we all agree we don't want a pay wall since we want to grow viewership, not kill it. While that model might actually be sustainable, I am personally hoping that we could actually grow viewership to the point that advertisers would be tempted to take over, or at least help. Either way, that is a long way off and it'ss assuming the KR progamers fully switch over to sc2 (I personally am still hoping they switch back to sc1 after this one year, and none of this will matter but I know its wishful thinking) The thing I will agree with Game about is mixing the foreigners in. As much as I would LOVE to see our best players at least take a game off of the top KR amateurs, it just isn't going to happen. I certainly wouldn't bar them from entering but only invite them if they have a legit chance of winning a BO3-BO5. A 50-50 mix would mean so many walkovers it would just be a waste of time for everyone. | ||
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