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On April 01 2012 07:53 rotinegg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 07:43 Ace.Xile wrote:On April 01 2012 07:35 Gamegene wrote:On April 01 2012 07:27 Incognoto wrote:On April 01 2012 04:16 TheButtonmen wrote:On April 01 2012 03:21 FidoDido wrote:
instead of coaching players, he should just switch over to sc2 and start pwning! He's already banned by GOM. What about the foreign scene? That's retarded and a good way to piss off international Koreans. The whole idea of this scandal is beyond ridiculous. Yeah he helped people fix matches, there are literally 100 times more people out there who have done much more, and been widely accepted back into society. I'm talking about people like Michael Vick. Last time I checked I value humanity and decent treatment of animals greatly over that of match fixing. People just want to hate someone and something, the sc community is horrible about that. different culture, different ideals; ever think what it might be like outside your small bubble? what if i told you we eat dogs (which we do btw) and that i can't see why americans get so worked up about a stupid dog fight?
It isn't even a different culture. He just thinks because one is worse morally that you should be punished more harshly if you commit that crime. Dog fighting does not destroy the integrity of the NFL. The NFL is still perceived as a normal sports organization where the better team that day wins. With match fixing however it creates questions about that integrity and can destroy smaller organizations.
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On April 01 2012 08:58 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 07:53 rotinegg wrote:On April 01 2012 07:43 Ace.Xile wrote:On April 01 2012 07:35 Gamegene wrote:On April 01 2012 07:27 Incognoto wrote:On April 01 2012 04:16 TheButtonmen wrote:On April 01 2012 03:21 FidoDido wrote:
instead of coaching players, he should just switch over to sc2 and start pwning! He's already banned by GOM. What about the foreign scene? That's retarded and a good way to piss off international Koreans. The whole idea of this scandal is beyond ridiculous. Yeah he helped people fix matches, there are literally 100 times more people out there who have done much more, and been widely accepted back into society. I'm talking about people like Michael Vick. Last time I checked I value humanity and decent treatment of animals greatly over that of match fixing. People just want to hate someone and something, the sc community is horrible about that. different culture, different ideals; ever think what it might be like outside your small bubble? what if i told you we eat dogs (which we do btw) and that i can't see why americans get so worked up about a stupid dog fight? It isn't even a different culture. He just thinks because one is worse morally that you should be punished more harshly if you commit that crime. Dog fighting does not destroy the integrity of the NFL. The NFL is still perceived as a normal sports organization where the better team that day wins. With match fixing however it creates questions about that integrity and can destroy smaller organizations.
It has everything to do with culture, the Korean culture has a lot more sense of pride which is really the enemy here, the events of sAviOr cannot be detrimental to the scene unless it is made so by the population.
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United States1719 Posts
On April 01 2012 09:04 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 08:58 NoobSkills wrote:On April 01 2012 07:53 rotinegg wrote:On April 01 2012 07:43 Ace.Xile wrote:On April 01 2012 07:35 Gamegene wrote:On April 01 2012 07:27 Incognoto wrote:On April 01 2012 04:16 TheButtonmen wrote:On April 01 2012 03:21 FidoDido wrote:
instead of coaching players, he should just switch over to sc2 and start pwning! He's already banned by GOM. What about the foreign scene? That's retarded and a good way to piss off international Koreans. The whole idea of this scandal is beyond ridiculous. Yeah he helped people fix matches, there are literally 100 times more people out there who have done much more, and been widely accepted back into society. I'm talking about people like Michael Vick. Last time I checked I value humanity and decent treatment of animals greatly over that of match fixing. People just want to hate someone and something, the sc community is horrible about that. different culture, different ideals; ever think what it might be like outside your small bubble? what if i told you we eat dogs (which we do btw) and that i can't see why americans get so worked up about a stupid dog fight? It isn't even a different culture. He just thinks because one is worse morally that you should be punished more harshly if you commit that crime. Dog fighting does not destroy the integrity of the NFL. The NFL is still perceived as a normal sports organization where the better team that day wins. With match fixing however it creates questions about that integrity and can destroy smaller organizations. It has everything to do with culture, the Korean culture has a lot more sense of pride which is really the enemy here, the events of sAviOr cannot be detrimental to the scene unless it is made so by the population.
i would like to hear more on how it cannot be detrimental to the scene when it has already proven to be so  im not saying his actions were 100% responsible for CJ's coach cho leaving, MBC Heroes/Hite Sparkies/Hwaseung Oz/Wemade Fox/Estro disbanding, MSL/MBC game shutting down, a bunch of esports players and staff losing their jobs in the process, and OSL having difficulty finding sponsors, but surely some blame lies with savior, no? And what savior did caused a whole lot more damage than what the honest players (a lot of whom got the shaft for savior's actions) ever did to hurt the BW scene. savior shouldn't carry 100% of the blame, I agree, but neither does he deserve any vindication, especially when he's a douchebag.
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dat savior just put his name in a title of a thread and it gets more posts and views then the avg of any bw thread on tl.
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Anyway please stop saying he dragged others into it as to take away their guilt and put it on savior. I bet savior was pulled into it by someone outside just the same way. Doesn't mean he is not responsible for what he did.
All of them were equally tempted by a quick buck all of them are equally guilty for their match fixing. The gravity of their actions might be different due to savior being held up to higher standards and the stakes were higher. But he is not responsible for the others.
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not sure why anyone would give money to a cheater that only wants money
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On April 01 2012 09:14 rotinegg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 09:04 Eywa- wrote:On April 01 2012 08:58 NoobSkills wrote:On April 01 2012 07:53 rotinegg wrote:On April 01 2012 07:43 Ace.Xile wrote:On April 01 2012 07:35 Gamegene wrote:On April 01 2012 07:27 Incognoto wrote:On April 01 2012 04:16 TheButtonmen wrote:On April 01 2012 03:21 FidoDido wrote:
instead of coaching players, he should just switch over to sc2 and start pwning! He's already banned by GOM. What about the foreign scene? That's retarded and a good way to piss off international Koreans. The whole idea of this scandal is beyond ridiculous. Yeah he helped people fix matches, there are literally 100 times more people out there who have done much more, and been widely accepted back into society. I'm talking about people like Michael Vick. Last time I checked I value humanity and decent treatment of animals greatly over that of match fixing. People just want to hate someone and something, the sc community is horrible about that. different culture, different ideals; ever think what it might be like outside your small bubble? what if i told you we eat dogs (which we do btw) and that i can't see why americans get so worked up about a stupid dog fight? It isn't even a different culture. He just thinks because one is worse morally that you should be punished more harshly if you commit that crime. Dog fighting does not destroy the integrity of the NFL. The NFL is still perceived as a normal sports organization where the better team that day wins. With match fixing however it creates questions about that integrity and can destroy smaller organizations. It has everything to do with culture, the Korean culture has a lot more sense of pride which is really the enemy here, the events of sAviOr cannot be detrimental to the scene unless it is made so by the population. i would like to hear more on how it cannot be detrimental to the scene when it has already proven to be so im not saying his actions were 100% responsible for CJ's coach cho leaving, MBC Heroes/Hite Sparkies/Hwaseung Oz/Wemade Fox/Estro disbanding, MSL/MBC game shutting down, a bunch of esports players and staff losing their jobs in the process, and OSL having difficulty finding sponsors, but surely some blame lies with savior, no? And what savior did caused a whole lot more damage than what the honest players (a lot of whom got the shaft for savior's actions) ever did to hurt the BW scene. savior shouldn't carry 100% of the blame, I agree, but neither does he deserve any vindication, especially when he's a douchebag.
Well one for sure, he is man that keeps to his words. "I will destroy everyone in 2009." And damn right he did.
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On April 01 2012 09:21 askTeivospy wrote:
not sure why anyone would give money to a cheater that only wants money
They don't give him money for cheating but providing valuable coaching and high level stream. And if your parents don't pay for everything you do want money.
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United States1719 Posts
On April 01 2012 09:20 HeaDStrong wrote:
Anyway please stop saying he dragged others into it as to take away their guilt and put it on savior. I bet savior was pulled into it by someone outside just the same way. Doesn't mean he is not responsible for what he did.
All of them were equally tempted by a quick buck all of them are equally guilty for their match fixing. The gravity of their actions might be different due to savior being held up to higher standards and the stakes were higher. But he is not responsible for the others.
He introduced the players to the ordeal and brokered the transactions, meaning he facilitated the transfer of money between the betting companies and the players, establishing himself as the "go-to man" for this sort of illegal match fixing to make a quick buck. I guess that wasn't enough for him though, as he actually ripped off thousands of dollars from the deals he brokered, meaning he didn't pay the players he was supposed to deliver the money to in full, and pocketed some. This was all in the official police reports, and it says in print that he was responsible for the others' involvement, so yea I'd say it's pretty justified to claim that he dragged others into it. That's why savior got slammed with a one year sentence in jail while others got off with a monetary fine.
it's not the level of standards savior was held up to; it was savior's level of involvement, and the acts of doucebaggery that followed the scandal that heightened the gravity of his actions among BW fans.
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On April 01 2012 09:25 rotinegg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 09:20 HeaDStrong wrote:
Anyway please stop saying he dragged others into it as to take away their guilt and put it on savior. I bet savior was pulled into it by someone outside just the same way. Doesn't mean he is not responsible for what he did.
All of them were equally tempted by a quick buck all of them are equally guilty for their match fixing. The gravity of their actions might be different due to savior being held up to higher standards and the stakes were higher. But he is not responsible for the others. He introduced the players to the ordeal and brokered the transactions, meaning he facilitated the transfer of money between the betting companies and the players, establishing himself as the "go-to man" for this sort of illegal match fixing to make a quick buck. I guess that wasn't enough for him though, as he actually ripped off thousands of dollars from the deals he brokered, meaning he didn't pay the players he was supposed to deliver the money to in full, and pocketed some. This was all in the official police reports, so yea I'd say it's pretty justified to claim that he dragged others into it. it's not the level of standards savior was held up to; it was savior's level of involvement, and the acts of doucebaggery that followed the scandal that heightened the gravity of his actions among BW fans.
All I was saying is that you can't take away guilt from any of the involved players. Okay, my wording was poor and it might seem as if I said so. But every player involved had the choice to walk away or rat him out. They were greedy and happily fixed their matches.
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On April 01 2012 09:14 rotinegg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 09:04 Eywa- wrote:On April 01 2012 08:58 NoobSkills wrote:On April 01 2012 07:53 rotinegg wrote:On April 01 2012 07:43 Ace.Xile wrote:On April 01 2012 07:35 Gamegene wrote:On April 01 2012 07:27 Incognoto wrote:On April 01 2012 04:16 TheButtonmen wrote:On April 01 2012 03:21 FidoDido wrote:
instead of coaching players, he should just switch over to sc2 and start pwning! He's already banned by GOM. What about the foreign scene? That's retarded and a good way to piss off international Koreans. The whole idea of this scandal is beyond ridiculous. Yeah he helped people fix matches, there are literally 100 times more people out there who have done much more, and been widely accepted back into society. I'm talking about people like Michael Vick. Last time I checked I value humanity and decent treatment of animals greatly over that of match fixing. People just want to hate someone and something, the sc community is horrible about that. different culture, different ideals; ever think what it might be like outside your small bubble? what if i told you we eat dogs (which we do btw) and that i can't see why americans get so worked up about a stupid dog fight? It isn't even a different culture. He just thinks because one is worse morally that you should be punished more harshly if you commit that crime. Dog fighting does not destroy the integrity of the NFL. The NFL is still perceived as a normal sports organization where the better team that day wins. With match fixing however it creates questions about that integrity and can destroy smaller organizations. It has everything to do with culture, the Korean culture has a lot more sense of pride which is really the enemy here, the events of sAviOr cannot be detrimental to the scene unless it is made so by the population. i would like to hear more on how it cannot be detrimental to the scene when it has already proven to be so im not saying his actions were 100% responsible for CJ's coach cho leaving, MBC Heroes/Hite Sparkies/Hwaseung Oz/Wemade Fox/Estro disbanding, MSL/MBC game shutting down, a bunch of esports players and staff losing their jobs in the process, and OSL having difficulty finding sponsors, but surely some blame lies with savior, no? And what savior did caused a whole lot more damage than what the honest players (a lot of whom got the shaft for savior's actions) ever did to hurt the BW scene. savior shouldn't carry 100% of the blame, I agree, but neither does he deserve any vindication, especially when he's a douchebag.
I think there's a misunderstand here, yes what savior did was bad. However, the choices that were made afterwards by the people is what we attribute to savior. You can think of Savior as merely being the fuse to a bomb, yes, the fuse ignited the explosion and we cannot love him for that, however, the people were the ones that determined that it were to be a nuclear warhead rather than a frag grenade. Given less pride and personal dignity on behalf of many individuals, the explosion could have been severely limited. That being, even if someone does something bad, things can only degrade to whatever level we allow them to. Everyone need to get off their high horse, take off that white wig and realize that they're not too good or too honorable to be associated with e-sports, the general populace needs to calm down and once everyone's settled on the fact whatever happened happened, they can all go back to their usual and when this happens, sponsorship will return because good business is to please the people you want to market to.
So, the misunderstanding is I don't think sAviOr should be forgiven by the proscene, but what happened to them wasn't savior's doing, it was their own, every individual who went crazy when the event went down is responsible. not just one man. No one has power unless it is given to them by other people.
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United States1719 Posts
On April 01 2012 09:34 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 09:14 rotinegg wrote:On April 01 2012 09:04 Eywa- wrote:On April 01 2012 08:58 NoobSkills wrote:On April 01 2012 07:53 rotinegg wrote:On April 01 2012 07:43 Ace.Xile wrote:On April 01 2012 07:35 Gamegene wrote:On April 01 2012 07:27 Incognoto wrote:On April 01 2012 04:16 TheButtonmen wrote:On April 01 2012 03:21 FidoDido wrote:
instead of coaching players, he should just switch over to sc2 and start pwning! He's already banned by GOM. What about the foreign scene? That's retarded and a good way to piss off international Koreans. The whole idea of this scandal is beyond ridiculous. Yeah he helped people fix matches, there are literally 100 times more people out there who have done much more, and been widely accepted back into society. I'm talking about people like Michael Vick. Last time I checked I value humanity and decent treatment of animals greatly over that of match fixing. People just want to hate someone and something, the sc community is horrible about that. different culture, different ideals; ever think what it might be like outside your small bubble? what if i told you we eat dogs (which we do btw) and that i can't see why americans get so worked up about a stupid dog fight? It isn't even a different culture. He just thinks because one is worse morally that you should be punished more harshly if you commit that crime. Dog fighting does not destroy the integrity of the NFL. The NFL is still perceived as a normal sports organization where the better team that day wins. With match fixing however it creates questions about that integrity and can destroy smaller organizations. It has everything to do with culture, the Korean culture has a lot more sense of pride which is really the enemy here, the events of sAviOr cannot be detrimental to the scene unless it is made so by the population. i would like to hear more on how it cannot be detrimental to the scene when it has already proven to be so im not saying his actions were 100% responsible for CJ's coach cho leaving, MBC Heroes/Hite Sparkies/Hwaseung Oz/Wemade Fox/Estro disbanding, MSL/MBC game shutting down, a bunch of esports players and staff losing their jobs in the process, and OSL having difficulty finding sponsors, but surely some blame lies with savior, no? And what savior did caused a whole lot more damage than what the honest players (a lot of whom got the shaft for savior's actions) ever did to hurt the BW scene. savior shouldn't carry 100% of the blame, I agree, but neither does he deserve any vindication, especially when he's a douchebag. I think there's a misunderstand here, yes what savior did was bad. However, the choices that were made afterwards by the people is what we attribute to savior. You can think of Savior as merely being the fuse to a bomb, yes, the fuse ignited the explosion and we cannot love him for that, however, the people were the ones that determined that it were to be a nuclear warhead rather than a frag grenade. Given less pride and personal dignity on behalf of many individuals, the explosion could have been severely limited. That being, even if someone does something bad, things can only degrade to whatever level we allow them to. Everyone need to get off their high horse, take off that white wig and realize that they're not too good or too honorable to be associated with e-sports, the general populace needs to calm down and once everyone's settled on the fact whatever happened happened, they can all go back to their usual and when this happens, sponsorship will return because good business is to please the people you want to market to. So, the misunderstanding is I don't think sAviOr should be forgiven by the proscene, but what happened to them wasn't savior's doing, it was their own, every individual who went crazy when the event went down is responsible. not just one man. No one has power unless it is given to them by other people.
I see your point, and apologize if I came off a tad aggressive. I agree with you in a way, but at the same time it's difficult (for me at least) to shift any blame from the wrong-doers to us fans when we've done nothing but support the players and the scene. The initial feeling of betrayal, and then the bitterness that comes from savior being all up in your face like "hey I'm gonna make some more money off of BW, don't care what you other bitchez say cuz i do what i want lulz" (don't quote me on this, as the quote might be made up) when good people have lost their career (partly) because of what happened, make it difficult to see it any other way. We just react to what savior did/is doing the way according to how we were taught in our upbringing, but I guess an opinion from an outsider holds some objectivity that may be lacking from the fans' perspective.
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On April 01 2012 09:45 rotinegg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 09:34 Eywa- wrote:On April 01 2012 09:14 rotinegg wrote:On April 01 2012 09:04 Eywa- wrote:On April 01 2012 08:58 NoobSkills wrote:On April 01 2012 07:53 rotinegg wrote:On April 01 2012 07:43 Ace.Xile wrote:On April 01 2012 07:35 Gamegene wrote:On April 01 2012 07:27 Incognoto wrote:On April 01 2012 04:16 TheButtonmen wrote:
[quote]
He's already banned by GOM. What about the foreign scene? That's retarded and a good way to piss off international Koreans. The whole idea of this scandal is beyond ridiculous. Yeah he helped people fix matches, there are literally 100 times more people out there who have done much more, and been widely accepted back into society. I'm talking about people like Michael Vick. Last time I checked I value humanity and decent treatment of animals greatly over that of match fixing. People just want to hate someone and something, the sc community is horrible about that. different culture, different ideals; ever think what it might be like outside your small bubble? what if i told you we eat dogs (which we do btw) and that i can't see why americans get so worked up about a stupid dog fight? It isn't even a different culture. He just thinks because one is worse morally that you should be punished more harshly if you commit that crime. Dog fighting does not destroy the integrity of the NFL. The NFL is still perceived as a normal sports organization where the better team that day wins. With match fixing however it creates questions about that integrity and can destroy smaller organizations. It has everything to do with culture, the Korean culture has a lot more sense of pride which is really the enemy here, the events of sAviOr cannot be detrimental to the scene unless it is made so by the population. i would like to hear more on how it cannot be detrimental to the scene when it has already proven to be so im not saying his actions were 100% responsible for CJ's coach cho leaving, MBC Heroes/Hite Sparkies/Hwaseung Oz/Wemade Fox/Estro disbanding, MSL/MBC game shutting down, a bunch of esports players and staff losing their jobs in the process, and OSL having difficulty finding sponsors, but surely some blame lies with savior, no? And what savior did caused a whole lot more damage than what the honest players (a lot of whom got the shaft for savior's actions) ever did to hurt the BW scene. savior shouldn't carry 100% of the blame, I agree, but neither does he deserve any vindication, especially when he's a douchebag. I think there's a misunderstand here, yes what savior did was bad. However, the choices that were made afterwards by the people is what we attribute to savior. You can think of Savior as merely being the fuse to a bomb, yes, the fuse ignited the explosion and we cannot love him for that, however, the people were the ones that determined that it were to be a nuclear warhead rather than a frag grenade. Given less pride and personal dignity on behalf of many individuals, the explosion could have been severely limited. That being, even if someone does something bad, things can only degrade to whatever level we allow them to. Everyone need to get off their high horse, take off that white wig and realize that they're not too good or too honorable to be associated with e-sports, the general populace needs to calm down and once everyone's settled on the fact whatever happened happened, they can all go back to their usual and when this happens, sponsorship will return because good business is to please the people you want to market to. So, the misunderstanding is I don't think sAviOr should be forgiven by the proscene, but what happened to them wasn't savior's doing, it was their own, every individual who went crazy when the event went down is responsible. not just one man. No one has power unless it is given to them by other people. I see your point, and apologize if I came off a tad aggressive. I agree with you in a way, but at the same time it's difficult (for me at least) to shift any blame from the wrong-doers to us fans when we've done nothing but support the players and the scene. The initial feeling of betrayal, and then the bitterness that comes from savior being all up in your face like "hey I'm gonna make some more money off of BW, don't care what you other bitchez say cuz i do what i want lulz" (don't quote me on this, as the quote might be made up) when good people have lost their career (partly) because of what happened.
Only people I am putting fault on are the commentator that got overly aggressive toward the incident and made a huge deal with it. If I remember correct, there is only one commentator that was mad while the others remained calm. How can you expect the rest of us to stay calm when a BW rep is making such a big scene?
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United States1719 Posts
On April 01 2012 09:47 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 09:45 rotinegg wrote:On April 01 2012 09:34 Eywa- wrote:On April 01 2012 09:14 rotinegg wrote:On April 01 2012 09:04 Eywa- wrote:On April 01 2012 08:58 NoobSkills wrote:On April 01 2012 07:53 rotinegg wrote:On April 01 2012 07:43 Ace.Xile wrote:On April 01 2012 07:35 Gamegene wrote:On April 01 2012 07:27 Incognoto wrote:
[quote]
What about the foreign scene? That's retarded and a good way to piss off international Koreans. The whole idea of this scandal is beyond ridiculous. Yeah he helped people fix matches, there are literally 100 times more people out there who have done much more, and been widely accepted back into society. I'm talking about people like Michael Vick. Last time I checked I value humanity and decent treatment of animals greatly over that of match fixing. People just want to hate someone and something, the sc community is horrible about that. different culture, different ideals; ever think what it might be like outside your small bubble? what if i told you we eat dogs (which we do btw) and that i can't see why americans get so worked up about a stupid dog fight? It isn't even a different culture. He just thinks because one is worse morally that you should be punished more harshly if you commit that crime. Dog fighting does not destroy the integrity of the NFL. The NFL is still perceived as a normal sports organization where the better team that day wins. With match fixing however it creates questions about that integrity and can destroy smaller organizations. It has everything to do with culture, the Korean culture has a lot more sense of pride which is really the enemy here, the events of sAviOr cannot be detrimental to the scene unless it is made so by the population. i would like to hear more on how it cannot be detrimental to the scene when it has already proven to be so im not saying his actions were 100% responsible for CJ's coach cho leaving, MBC Heroes/Hite Sparkies/Hwaseung Oz/Wemade Fox/Estro disbanding, MSL/MBC game shutting down, a bunch of esports players and staff losing their jobs in the process, and OSL having difficulty finding sponsors, but surely some blame lies with savior, no? And what savior did caused a whole lot more damage than what the honest players (a lot of whom got the shaft for savior's actions) ever did to hurt the BW scene. savior shouldn't carry 100% of the blame, I agree, but neither does he deserve any vindication, especially when he's a douchebag. I think there's a misunderstand here, yes what savior did was bad. However, the choices that were made afterwards by the people is what we attribute to savior. You can think of Savior as merely being the fuse to a bomb, yes, the fuse ignited the explosion and we cannot love him for that, however, the people were the ones that determined that it were to be a nuclear warhead rather than a frag grenade. Given less pride and personal dignity on behalf of many individuals, the explosion could have been severely limited. That being, even if someone does something bad, things can only degrade to whatever level we allow them to. Everyone need to get off their high horse, take off that white wig and realize that they're not too good or too honorable to be associated with e-sports, the general populace needs to calm down and once everyone's settled on the fact whatever happened happened, they can all go back to their usual and when this happens, sponsorship will return because good business is to please the people you want to market to. So, the misunderstanding is I don't think sAviOr should be forgiven by the proscene, but what happened to them wasn't savior's doing, it was their own, every individual who went crazy when the event went down is responsible. not just one man. No one has power unless it is given to them by other people. I see your point, and apologize if I came off a tad aggressive. I agree with you in a way, but at the same time it's difficult (for me at least) to shift any blame from the wrong-doers to us fans when we've done nothing but support the players and the scene. The initial feeling of betrayal, and then the bitterness that comes from savior being all up in your face like "hey I'm gonna make some more money off of BW, don't care what you other bitchez say cuz i do what i want lulz" (don't quote me on this, as the quote might be made up) when good people have lost their career (partly) because of what happened. Only people I am putting fault on are the commentator that got overly aggressive toward the incident and made a huge deal with it. If I remember correct, there is only one commentator that was mad while the others remained calm. How can you expect the rest of us to stay calm when a BW rep is making such a big scene?
well to me that episode of backtalk had the opposite effect: it's their job to remain utterly calm and nonchalant on TV, and the fact that even one of them got riled up enough to swear on air means it was a HUGE deal. And trust me, it wasn't just one commentator, there's a thread on TL that has links to twitter feeds of esports personnel expressing their anger. savior had enough fans to smother the "one BW rep" if there were little validity to his claims, but the overwhelming majority of the Korean BW fans agreed savior is an ass-hat and deserves all the hate being thrown at him before the episode aired, so I don't think it was a sheep-herding phenomenon like you described.
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On April 01 2012 09:53 rotinegg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 09:47 Xiphos wrote:On April 01 2012 09:45 rotinegg wrote:On April 01 2012 09:34 Eywa- wrote:On April 01 2012 09:14 rotinegg wrote:On April 01 2012 09:04 Eywa- wrote:On April 01 2012 08:58 NoobSkills wrote:On April 01 2012 07:53 rotinegg wrote:On April 01 2012 07:43 Ace.Xile wrote:On April 01 2012 07:35 Gamegene wrote:
[quote]
That's retarded and a good way to piss off international Koreans. The whole idea of this scandal is beyond ridiculous. Yeah he helped people fix matches, there are literally 100 times more people out there who have done much more, and been widely accepted back into society. I'm talking about people like Michael Vick. Last time I checked I value humanity and decent treatment of animals greatly over that of match fixing. People just want to hate someone and something, the sc community is horrible about that. different culture, different ideals; ever think what it might be like outside your small bubble? what if i told you we eat dogs (which we do btw) and that i can't see why americans get so worked up about a stupid dog fight? It isn't even a different culture. He just thinks because one is worse morally that you should be punished more harshly if you commit that crime. Dog fighting does not destroy the integrity of the NFL. The NFL is still perceived as a normal sports organization where the better team that day wins. With match fixing however it creates questions about that integrity and can destroy smaller organizations. It has everything to do with culture, the Korean culture has a lot more sense of pride which is really the enemy here, the events of sAviOr cannot be detrimental to the scene unless it is made so by the population. i would like to hear more on how it cannot be detrimental to the scene when it has already proven to be so im not saying his actions were 100% responsible for CJ's coach cho leaving, MBC Heroes/Hite Sparkies/Hwaseung Oz/Wemade Fox/Estro disbanding, MSL/MBC game shutting down, a bunch of esports players and staff losing their jobs in the process, and OSL having difficulty finding sponsors, but surely some blame lies with savior, no? And what savior did caused a whole lot more damage than what the honest players (a lot of whom got the shaft for savior's actions) ever did to hurt the BW scene. savior shouldn't carry 100% of the blame, I agree, but neither does he deserve any vindication, especially when he's a douchebag. I think there's a misunderstand here, yes what savior did was bad. However, the choices that were made afterwards by the people is what we attribute to savior. You can think of Savior as merely being the fuse to a bomb, yes, the fuse ignited the explosion and we cannot love him for that, however, the people were the ones that determined that it were to be a nuclear warhead rather than a frag grenade. Given less pride and personal dignity on behalf of many individuals, the explosion could have been severely limited. That being, even if someone does something bad, things can only degrade to whatever level we allow them to. Everyone need to get off their high horse, take off that white wig and realize that they're not too good or too honorable to be associated with e-sports, the general populace needs to calm down and once everyone's settled on the fact whatever happened happened, they can all go back to their usual and when this happens, sponsorship will return because good business is to please the people you want to market to. So, the misunderstanding is I don't think sAviOr should be forgiven by the proscene, but what happened to them wasn't savior's doing, it was their own, every individual who went crazy when the event went down is responsible. not just one man. No one has power unless it is given to them by other people. I see your point, and apologize if I came off a tad aggressive. I agree with you in a way, but at the same time it's difficult (for me at least) to shift any blame from the wrong-doers to us fans when we've done nothing but support the players and the scene. The initial feeling of betrayal, and then the bitterness that comes from savior being all up in your face like "hey I'm gonna make some more money off of BW, don't care what you other bitchez say cuz i do what i want lulz" (don't quote me on this, as the quote might be made up) when good people have lost their career (partly) because of what happened. Only people I am putting fault on are the commentator that got overly aggressive toward the incident and made a huge deal with it. If I remember correct, there is only one commentator that was mad while the others remained calm. How can you expect the rest of us to stay calm when a BW rep is making such a big scene? well to me that episode of backtalk had the opposite effect: it's their job to remain utterly calm and nonchalant on TV, and the fact that even one of them got riled up enough to swear on air means it was a HUGE deal. And trust me, it wasn't just one commentator, there's a thread on TL that has links to twitter feeds of esports personnel expressing their anger. savior had enough fans to smother the "one BW rep" if there was little validity to his claims, but the overwhelming majority of the Korean fans agree savior is an ass-hat and deserves all the hate being thrown at him.
Well I was just thinking. What if everyone manage to chill under that condition. People got those news from websites like Fomos or Daily-esports. What if the writers casually informed everyone about the situation without the need of disseminating anger towards the culprit. The netizens would view the entire incident more lightly. I means if no one makes a big of deal of it, then the sponsors wouldn't either.
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On April 01 2012 09:45 rotinegg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 09:34 Eywa- wrote:On April 01 2012 09:14 rotinegg wrote:On April 01 2012 09:04 Eywa- wrote:On April 01 2012 08:58 NoobSkills wrote:On April 01 2012 07:53 rotinegg wrote:On April 01 2012 07:43 Ace.Xile wrote:On April 01 2012 07:35 Gamegene wrote:On April 01 2012 07:27 Incognoto wrote:On April 01 2012 04:16 TheButtonmen wrote:
[quote]
He's already banned by GOM. What about the foreign scene? That's retarded and a good way to piss off international Koreans. The whole idea of this scandal is beyond ridiculous. Yeah he helped people fix matches, there are literally 100 times more people out there who have done much more, and been widely accepted back into society. I'm talking about people like Michael Vick. Last time I checked I value humanity and decent treatment of animals greatly over that of match fixing. People just want to hate someone and something, the sc community is horrible about that. different culture, different ideals; ever think what it might be like outside your small bubble? what if i told you we eat dogs (which we do btw) and that i can't see why americans get so worked up about a stupid dog fight? It isn't even a different culture. He just thinks because one is worse morally that you should be punished more harshly if you commit that crime. Dog fighting does not destroy the integrity of the NFL. The NFL is still perceived as a normal sports organization where the better team that day wins. With match fixing however it creates questions about that integrity and can destroy smaller organizations. It has everything to do with culture, the Korean culture has a lot more sense of pride which is really the enemy here, the events of sAviOr cannot be detrimental to the scene unless it is made so by the population. i would like to hear more on how it cannot be detrimental to the scene when it has already proven to be so im not saying his actions were 100% responsible for CJ's coach cho leaving, MBC Heroes/Hite Sparkies/Hwaseung Oz/Wemade Fox/Estro disbanding, MSL/MBC game shutting down, a bunch of esports players and staff losing their jobs in the process, and OSL having difficulty finding sponsors, but surely some blame lies with savior, no? And what savior did caused a whole lot more damage than what the honest players (a lot of whom got the shaft for savior's actions) ever did to hurt the BW scene. savior shouldn't carry 100% of the blame, I agree, but neither does he deserve any vindication, especially when he's a douchebag. I think there's a misunderstand here, yes what savior did was bad. However, the choices that were made afterwards by the people is what we attribute to savior. You can think of Savior as merely being the fuse to a bomb, yes, the fuse ignited the explosion and we cannot love him for that, however, the people were the ones that determined that it were to be a nuclear warhead rather than a frag grenade. Given less pride and personal dignity on behalf of many individuals, the explosion could have been severely limited. That being, even if someone does something bad, things can only degrade to whatever level we allow them to. Everyone need to get off their high horse, take off that white wig and realize that they're not too good or too honorable to be associated with e-sports, the general populace needs to calm down and once everyone's settled on the fact whatever happened happened, they can all go back to their usual and when this happens, sponsorship will return because good business is to please the people you want to market to. So, the misunderstanding is I don't think sAviOr should be forgiven by the proscene, but what happened to them wasn't savior's doing, it was their own, every individual who went crazy when the event went down is responsible. not just one man. No one has power unless it is given to them by other people. I see your point, and apologize if I came off a tad aggressive. I agree with you in a way, but at the same time it's difficult (for me at least) to shift any blame from the wrong-doers to us fans when we've done nothing but support the players and the scene. The initial feeling of betrayal, and then the bitterness that comes from savior being all up in your face like "hey I'm gonna make some more money off of BW, don't care what you other bitchez say cuz i do what i want lulz" (don't quote me on this, as the quote might be made up) when good people have lost their career (partly) because of what happened, make it difficult to see it any other way. We just react to what savior did/is doing the way according to how we were taught in our upbringing, but I guess an opinion from an outsider holds some objectivity that may be lacking from the fans' perspective.
That's a really tricky part to it, in truth, blaming the fans won't accomplish any more than ranting on about sAviOr. At the end of the day, we have to look at the situation and look to ourselves and not what we think is right concerning the past, but what is right moving forward. If we can accomplish this, then esports will flourish ten fold.
Thought process:
1) Individual recognizes the problem.
2) Individual puts the blame on sAviOr for what has been done to the scene
3) Individual spends his time ranting about sAviOr
Event: Scene crumbles, no one wants their sponsorship to go to something that people think negatively about, the whole reason to sponsor is you get your product in front of the viewer's eye while they're feeling very positive, then what happens, the viewer will subconsciously associate the images to a positive moment.
1) Individual recognizes the problem.
2) Individual recognizes what sAviOr did and identifies it to have wronged the scene.
3) Individual looks further into the problem and identifies that sAviOr's actions are only powerful if they are channeled through himself.
4) Individual continues to enjoy what is left of the scene and contributes here and there to make things better.
Event: Scene grows, everyone wants to sponsor this because people are over past events, it's a new scene with new or renewed people who just want to have fun playing and watching Brood War.
Basically, what I'm saying is regardless of how bad things get, pointing fingers only makes things worse. (even if deserved)
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On April 01 2012 10:00 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 09:45 rotinegg wrote:On April 01 2012 09:34 Eywa- wrote:On April 01 2012 09:14 rotinegg wrote:On April 01 2012 09:04 Eywa- wrote:On April 01 2012 08:58 NoobSkills wrote:On April 01 2012 07:53 rotinegg wrote:On April 01 2012 07:43 Ace.Xile wrote:On April 01 2012 07:35 Gamegene wrote:On April 01 2012 07:27 Incognoto wrote:
[quote]
What about the foreign scene? That's retarded and a good way to piss off international Koreans. The whole idea of this scandal is beyond ridiculous. Yeah he helped people fix matches, there are literally 100 times more people out there who have done much more, and been widely accepted back into society. I'm talking about people like Michael Vick. Last time I checked I value humanity and decent treatment of animals greatly over that of match fixing. People just want to hate someone and something, the sc community is horrible about that. different culture, different ideals; ever think what it might be like outside your small bubble? what if i told you we eat dogs (which we do btw) and that i can't see why americans get so worked up about a stupid dog fight? It isn't even a different culture. He just thinks because one is worse morally that you should be punished more harshly if you commit that crime. Dog fighting does not destroy the integrity of the NFL. The NFL is still perceived as a normal sports organization where the better team that day wins. With match fixing however it creates questions about that integrity and can destroy smaller organizations. It has everything to do with culture, the Korean culture has a lot more sense of pride which is really the enemy here, the events of sAviOr cannot be detrimental to the scene unless it is made so by the population. i would like to hear more on how it cannot be detrimental to the scene when it has already proven to be so im not saying his actions were 100% responsible for CJ's coach cho leaving, MBC Heroes/Hite Sparkies/Hwaseung Oz/Wemade Fox/Estro disbanding, MSL/MBC game shutting down, a bunch of esports players and staff losing their jobs in the process, and OSL having difficulty finding sponsors, but surely some blame lies with savior, no? And what savior did caused a whole lot more damage than what the honest players (a lot of whom got the shaft for savior's actions) ever did to hurt the BW scene. savior shouldn't carry 100% of the blame, I agree, but neither does he deserve any vindication, especially when he's a douchebag. I think there's a misunderstand here, yes what savior did was bad. However, the choices that were made afterwards by the people is what we attribute to savior. You can think of Savior as merely being the fuse to a bomb, yes, the fuse ignited the explosion and we cannot love him for that, however, the people were the ones that determined that it were to be a nuclear warhead rather than a frag grenade. Given less pride and personal dignity on behalf of many individuals, the explosion could have been severely limited. That being, even if someone does something bad, things can only degrade to whatever level we allow them to. Everyone need to get off their high horse, take off that white wig and realize that they're not too good or too honorable to be associated with e-sports, the general populace needs to calm down and once everyone's settled on the fact whatever happened happened, they can all go back to their usual and when this happens, sponsorship will return because good business is to please the people you want to market to. So, the misunderstanding is I don't think sAviOr should be forgiven by the proscene, but what happened to them wasn't savior's doing, it was their own, every individual who went crazy when the event went down is responsible. not just one man. No one has power unless it is given to them by other people. I see your point, and apologize if I came off a tad aggressive. I agree with you in a way, but at the same time it's difficult (for me at least) to shift any blame from the wrong-doers to us fans when we've done nothing but support the players and the scene. The initial feeling of betrayal, and then the bitterness that comes from savior being all up in your face like "hey I'm gonna make some more money off of BW, don't care what you other bitchez say cuz i do what i want lulz" (don't quote me on this, as the quote might be made up) when good people have lost their career (partly) because of what happened, make it difficult to see it any other way. We just react to what savior did/is doing the way according to how we were taught in our upbringing, but I guess an opinion from an outsider holds some objectivity that may be lacking from the fans' perspective. That's a really tricky part to it, in truth, blaming the fans won't accomplish any more than ranting on about sAviOr. At the end of the day, we have to look at the situation and look to ourselves and not what we think is right concerning the past, but what is right moving forward. If we can accomplish this, then esports will flourish ten fold. Thought process: 1) Individual recognizes the problem. 2) Individual puts the blame on sAviOr for what has been done to the scene 3) Individual spends his time ranting about sAviOr Event: Scene crumbles, no one wants their sponsorship to go to something that people think negatively about, the whole reason to sponsor is you get your product in front of the viewer's eye while they're feeling very positive, then what happens, the viewer will subconsciously associate the images to a positive moment. 1) Individual recognizes the problem. 2) Individual recognizes what sAviOr did and identifies it to have wronged the scene. 3) Individual looks further into the problem and identifies that sAviOr's actions are only powerful if they are channeled through himself. 4) Individual continues to enjoy what is left of the scene and contributes here and there to make things better. Event: Scene grows, everyone wants to sponsor this because people are over past events, it's a new scene with new or renewed people who just want to have fun playing and watching Brood War. Basically, what I'm saying is regardless of how bad things get, pointing fingers only makes things worse. (even if deserved)
Thank you! Certainly did worded the whole argument better than me lol
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United States1719 Posts
I agree, and I think the fans quieted down after a bit, but other factors were at play so BW ran its natural course on a slow but steady decline. Honestly I believe how the fans reacted has very little to do with BW's gradual fall, and certainly much less than just the general loss of interest in the scene that had been building for years. We only get riled up about this stuff when savior makes announcements like "IMA STREAM BW, GIMME MONEYZ" or "IMA TEACH BW, GIMME MONEYZ" not two years after the scandal happened, when it's part of our culture to repent and self-reflect when you've made a mistake. savior did none of that, and that's the beef I have with him. I would be way more accepting of players like hwasin or luxury teaching BW for $25/hr.
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On April 01 2012 10:08 rotinegg wrote:
I agree, and I think the fans quieted down after a bit, but other factors were at play so BW ran its natural course on a slow but steady decline. Honestly I believe how the fans reacted has very little to do with BW's gradual fall, and certainly much less than just the general loss of interest in the scene that had been building for years. We only get riled up about this stuff when savior makes announcements like "IMA STREAM BW, GIMME MONEYZ" or "IMA TEACH BW, GIMME MONEYZ" not two years after the scandal happened, when it's part of our culture to repent and self-reflect when you've made a mistake. savior did none of that, and that's the beef I have with him. I would be way more accepting of players like hwasin or luxury teaching BW for $25/hr.
Say what?
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Oh hell, I loved Luxury, but if I were gonna shell out money for lessons, it wouldn't be for him or Hwasin 
We need a "Match Scandal: Where are they now" TLFE.
I'm hoping that most of the guilty party become typical, functional members of society.
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EPT
