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On April 01 2012 10:14 MountainDewJunkie wrote:Oh hell, I loved Luxury, but if I were gonna shell out money for lessons, it wouldn't be for him or Hwasin  We need a "Match Scandal: Where are they now" TLFE. I'm hoping that most of the guilty party become typical, functional members of society.
70% Military, 30% Afreeca
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United States1719 Posts
On April 01 2012 10:13 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 10:08 rotinegg wrote:
I agree, and I think the fans quieted down after a bit, but other factors were at play so BW ran its natural course on a slow but steady decline. Honestly I believe how the fans reacted has very little to do with BW's gradual fall, and certainly much less than just the general loss of interest in the scene that had been building for years. We only get riled up about this stuff when savior makes announcements like "IMA STREAM BW, GIMME MONEYZ" or "IMA TEACH BW, GIMME MONEYZ" not two years after the scandal happened, when it's part of our culture to repent and self-reflect when you've made a mistake. savior did none of that, and that's the beef I have with him. I would be way more accepting of players like hwasin or luxury teaching BW for $25/hr. Say what?
broke down in tears in front of his head coach when the police contacted CJ Entus regarding the scandal, saying "BELIEVE ME COACH I DIDNT DO IT TT_TT", coach cho believes him and defends him til the end and tries to save his ass online until it was too late, after which coach cho retires out of guilt (this is a team coach cho built from nothing, when they had no sponsor and he had to break his bank to feed the players, mind you), savior then runs away and goes into hiding while his peers post apology letters and retire on their own accord, only posts an apology letter when his fate is pretty much sealed in court, then starts streaming only months after the incident, opens up a fanclub where you can only post if you pay a signup fee knowing he still has fans that will pay for anything, then this shit. Not a word of remorse outside of that half-hearted apology letter he probably didn't even write. Then this shit.
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On April 01 2012 10:13 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 10:08 rotinegg wrote:
I agree, and I think the fans quieted down after a bit, but other factors were at play so BW ran its natural course on a slow but steady decline. Honestly I believe how the fans reacted has very little to do with BW's gradual fall, and certainly much less than just the general loss of interest in the scene that had been building for years. We only get riled up about this stuff when savior makes announcements like "IMA STREAM BW, GIMME MONEYZ" or "IMA TEACH BW, GIMME MONEYZ" not two years after the scandal happened, when it's part of our culture to repent and self-reflect when you've made a mistake. savior did none of that, and that's the beef I have with him. I would be way more accepting of players like hwasin or luxury teaching BW for $25/hr. Say what?
Indeed.
1) who's culture?
2) if you think that's true in America, you're nuts
3) people don't typically "repent" in a meaningful way; they get caught and try to bullshit themselves back in favorable light
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United States1719 Posts
On April 01 2012 10:18 MountainDewJunkie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 10:13 Xiphos wrote:On April 01 2012 10:08 rotinegg wrote:
I agree, and I think the fans quieted down after a bit, but other factors were at play so BW ran its natural course on a slow but steady decline. Honestly I believe how the fans reacted has very little to do with BW's gradual fall, and certainly much less than just the general loss of interest in the scene that had been building for years. We only get riled up about this stuff when savior makes announcements like "IMA STREAM BW, GIMME MONEYZ" or "IMA TEACH BW, GIMME MONEYZ" not two years after the scandal happened, when it's part of our culture to repent and self-reflect when you've made a mistake. savior did none of that, and that's the beef I have with him. I would be way more accepting of players like hwasin or luxury teaching BW for $25/hr. Say what? Indeed. 1) who's culture? 2) if you think that's true in America, you're nuts 3) people don't typically "repent" in a meaningful way; they get caught and try to bullshit themselves back in favorable light
1) Korea
2) Korea
3) Again, Korea != "people" (I think you forgot the 'American' prefix here)
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We have lots of strong feelings about this topic in general, but I still hold that this particular chapter of Savior's endeavors isn't a big deal and there won't be a large market for these lessons at all, so even if it IS outrageous, it's still not significant.
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On April 01 2012 10:19 rotinegg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 10:18 MountainDewJunkie wrote:On April 01 2012 10:13 Xiphos wrote:On April 01 2012 10:08 rotinegg wrote:
I agree, and I think the fans quieted down after a bit, but other factors were at play so BW ran its natural course on a slow but steady decline. Honestly I believe how the fans reacted has very little to do with BW's gradual fall, and certainly much less than just the general loss of interest in the scene that had been building for years. We only get riled up about this stuff when savior makes announcements like "IMA STREAM BW, GIMME MONEYZ" or "IMA TEACH BW, GIMME MONEYZ" not two years after the scandal happened, when it's part of our culture to repent and self-reflect when you've made a mistake. savior did none of that, and that's the beef I have with him. I would be way more accepting of players like hwasin or luxury teaching BW for $25/hr. Say what? Indeed. 1) who's culture? 2) if you think that's true in America, you're nuts 3) people don't typically "repent" in a meaningful way; they get caught and try to bullshit themselves back in favorable light 1) Korea 2) Korea 3) Again, Korea != "people" (I think you forgot the 'American' prefix here)
I honestly think attributing that sentiment to "Korean culture" is bullshit. It's just what most non-assholes do when they've made a mistake, and it's the "ideal behavior" in both most Eastern and Western cultures. And Savior is obviously an asshole.
That being said, I think the only hurt he's causing right now is "emotional hurt" by still existing in the BW scene. And really there's nothing to be done for it except to ignore him. People ranting online about it isn't going to change anything, and Savior's certainly not going to stop streaming or giving out lessons anytime soon, esp. given how fucking cheap he comes.
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On March 31 2012 04:17 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 04:09 JiPrime wrote:On March 31 2012 04:05 HeaDStrong wrote:On March 31 2012 04:01 JiPrime wrote:On March 31 2012 03:50 Glockateer wrote:
So many people on this thread pretend to be perfect by pointing out that he should be damned forever. Sounds much like religions to me but that's another topic..
He messed up big time and is banned from pro gaming and now he still wishes to play and coach. That shows that his punishment is fitting to the crime since he can no longer compete in something he is clearly passionate about. Regardless of his actions, e-sports in general is starting to grow globally at this time.
You never have to forgive him but he shouldn't be sitting here crucified years later because he made such a horrible mistake. He can't correct it or be apart of what he hurt. I might even say he nearly helped BW as much as he hurt it with his era of dominance and changing the metagame into what is considered a post-savior era. Tbh, I wouldn't be this mad if he started doing this AFTER his probation is finished. He's still on 2 year probation for his crimes and he pulls this bullshit? Unacceptable. Absolutely unacceptable. No one with a sane mind can argue that what he is doing now somehow hurts the bw scene. If anything it only helps it. Yo, mind if I quote your post and and re-post in Korean sites? Let's see what the koreans say about your statement. Just because x group of people gets angry about something does not make their opinion more valid than y group of people.
Just like when X group of people believe the Earth is less than 6000 years old and get really angry when group Y group of people says that's it's a couple billion years old.
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I'm going to have to agree with SNM on this. On the outside, the match-fixing scandal seemed to just be a phase; but in reality, that scandal caused a lot of problems for the BW scene. For the most part, the sponsorship issue is due to companies having a lack of faith in the scene, which was an after effect of the scandal. Yes Savior was a good player and yes he did have a legacy, but he threw away everything that helped to build him up just to make some extra money illegally. As much as I enjoyed savior as a player in 2007, I am biased in not liking the fact that he tries to make money off of BW.
Don't get me wrong, he can still try to make an honest living, but to be making it off something he was a part of ruining seems like a slap in the face for everyone who is deeply involved in the BW scene.
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On April 01 2012 12:23 blahman3344 wrote:
I'm going to have to agree with SNM on this. On the outside, the match-fixing scandal seemed to just be a phase; but in reality, that scandal caused a lot of problems for the BW scene. For the most part, the sponsorship issue is due to companies having a lack of faith in the scene, which was an after effect of the scandal. Yes Savior was a good player and yes he did have a legacy, but he threw away everything that helped to build him up just to make some extra money illegally. As much as I enjoyed savior as a player in 2007, I am biased in not liking the fact that he tries to make money off of BW.
Don't get me wrong, he can still try to make an honest living, but to be making it off something he was a part of ruining seems like a slap in the face for everyone who is deeply involved in the BW scene.
From the way everyone is talking its like he is actually making a living off of giving these lessons. Hes selling them dirt cheap to a very small group of people hes barely making any money. And that very small group of people is getting some great knowledge from a legendary gosu player.
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On April 01 2012 13:46 Probe. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 12:23 blahman3344 wrote:
I'm going to have to agree with SNM on this. On the outside, the match-fixing scandal seemed to just be a phase; but in reality, that scandal caused a lot of problems for the BW scene. For the most part, the sponsorship issue is due to companies having a lack of faith in the scene, which was an after effect of the scandal. Yes Savior was a good player and yes he did have a legacy, but he threw away everything that helped to build him up just to make some extra money illegally. As much as I enjoyed savior as a player in 2007, I am biased in not liking the fact that he tries to make money off of BW.
Don't get me wrong, he can still try to make an honest living, but to be making it off something he was a part of ruining seems like a slap in the face for everyone who is deeply involved in the BW scene. From the way everyone is talking its like he is actually making a living off of giving these lessons. Hes selling them dirt cheap to a very small group of people hes barely making any money. And that very small group of people is getting some great knowledge from a legendary gosu player.
Do you know how much money he made winning the starleauges and blizzcons? Then there is his normal pay up until 2010, he probably still a loaded bank account.
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On April 01 2012 14:22 RezChi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 13:46 Probe. wrote:On April 01 2012 12:23 blahman3344 wrote:
I'm going to have to agree with SNM on this. On the outside, the match-fixing scandal seemed to just be a phase; but in reality, that scandal caused a lot of problems for the BW scene. For the most part, the sponsorship issue is due to companies having a lack of faith in the scene, which was an after effect of the scandal. Yes Savior was a good player and yes he did have a legacy, but he threw away everything that helped to build him up just to make some extra money illegally. As much as I enjoyed savior as a player in 2007, I am biased in not liking the fact that he tries to make money off of BW.
Don't get me wrong, he can still try to make an honest living, but to be making it off something he was a part of ruining seems like a slap in the face for everyone who is deeply involved in the BW scene. From the way everyone is talking its like he is actually making a living off of giving these lessons. Hes selling them dirt cheap to a very small group of people hes barely making any money. And that very small group of people is getting some great knowledge from a legendary gosu player. Do you know how much money he made winning the starleauges and blizzcons? Then there is his normal pay up until 2010, he probably still a loaded bank account.
What does that have to do with anything?
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On March 29 2012 23:06 GTR wrote:
30k won is quite a lot (compared to the other afreeca bjs)
players like eagle/anytime do it for 10-15k won p/hr iirc.
that being said, you are learning from probably the greatest strategic zerg ever to play bw.
welp at least it's cheaper than idra.
GTR i really love you man lol the idra line made me die : )
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The most respectful thing he could have done was to move on. Milking out the industry and i supose his die hard fans.
Then again one of the best BW zerg for 25 bugs seems like a cheap deal.
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whats the point of getting online lessons? Lets say you drop a bill and get 4 hours worth of coaching. What do you gain in this time? At best, you get some pointers on build orders and timings. Perhaps some tips on how to engage or something.
Your gamesense isnt gonna improve in this short time. Your macro/micro doesnt improve from online coaching. If you actually want results, you need to get lessons for like a month at least. But even then, getting coaching in person by some average joe is probably more beneficial than some online bullshit by savior.
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On April 01 2012 15:19 gameguard wrote:
whats the point of getting online lessons? Lets say you drop a bill and get 4 hours worth of coaching. What do you gain in this time? At best, you get some pointers on build orders and timings. Perhaps some tips on how to engage or something.
Your gamesense isnt gonna improve in this short time. Your macro/micro doesnt improve from online coaching. If you actually want results, you need to get lessons for like a month at least. But even then, getting coaching in person by some average joe is probably more beneficial than some online bullshit by savior.
Its weird but people are gonna buy it..always amazes me how people are willing to fork out 100 bucks for idra's coaching. Never could understand those who buy it.
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So, is anyone here doing this? I'd love to see a blog about it.
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iirc, Artosis once interviewed ggmagic (was that his name?) who had also been involved in the match fixing scandal. He said that while what he did was really horrible, Artosis thought that he should be given a second chance anyway. I'm kind of in agreement with that.
BW pros literally sacrifice everything to be a progamer. To see such a sacrifice without having a reasonable financial compensation can be hard. They really did hurt esports, but they also contributed a lot. Their "crime" is really nothing compared to what you see people do every day (just look at TL's general forum for all the bad things happening in this world). Especially when you see that they aren't really nasty about it; they're just young people trying to get some extra cash in.
Like, don't get me wrong, I'm not defending their actions at all. Match fixing is appalling. But I think if murderers, rapists, thieves and traders are allowed to have a second chance, then there is NO reason we can't give a second chance to someone who's done match fixing. They already have a shit reputation, at least give them a chance to fix that.
Honestly if Savior started playing SC2 I would wet myself.. as a guy.
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uh match fixing savior? show some respect, kid.
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On April 01 2012 14:42 Probe. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 14:22 RezChi wrote:On April 01 2012 13:46 Probe. wrote:On April 01 2012 12:23 blahman3344 wrote:
I'm going to have to agree with SNM on this. On the outside, the match-fixing scandal seemed to just be a phase; but in reality, that scandal caused a lot of problems for the BW scene. For the most part, the sponsorship issue is due to companies having a lack of faith in the scene, which was an after effect of the scandal. Yes Savior was a good player and yes he did have a legacy, but he threw away everything that helped to build him up just to make some extra money illegally. As much as I enjoyed savior as a player in 2007, I am biased in not liking the fact that he tries to make money off of BW.
Don't get me wrong, he can still try to make an honest living, but to be making it off something he was a part of ruining seems like a slap in the face for everyone who is deeply involved in the BW scene. From the way everyone is talking its like he is actually making a living off of giving these lessons. Hes selling them dirt cheap to a very small group of people hes barely making any money. And that very small group of people is getting some great knowledge from a legendary gosu player. Do you know how much money he made winning the starleauges and blizzcons? Then there is his normal pay up until 2010, he probably still a loaded bank account. What does that have to do with anything?
I don't know man, your sentence wasn't very coherent to be honest.
Hes selling them dirt cheap to a very small group of people hes barely making any money.
Like i stated before he probably has a loaded bank account so he doesn't need to make any money at all off brood-war. But, i have no idea what his $ status at all.
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On April 01 2012 10:16 rotinegg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 10:13 Xiphos wrote:On April 01 2012 10:08 rotinegg wrote:
I agree, and I think the fans quieted down after a bit, but other factors were at play so BW ran its natural course on a slow but steady decline. Honestly I believe how the fans reacted has very little to do with BW's gradual fall, and certainly much less than just the general loss of interest in the scene that had been building for years. We only get riled up about this stuff when savior makes announcements like "IMA STREAM BW, GIMME MONEYZ" or "IMA TEACH BW, GIMME MONEYZ" not two years after the scandal happened, when it's part of our culture to repent and self-reflect when you've made a mistake. savior did none of that, and that's the beef I have with him. I would be way more accepting of players like hwasin or luxury teaching BW for $25/hr. Say what? broke down in tears in front of his head coach when the police contacted CJ Entus regarding the scandal, saying "BELIEVE ME COACH I DIDNT DO IT TT_TT", coach cho believes him and defends him til the end and tries to save his ass online until it was too late, after which coach cho retires out of guilt (this is a team coach cho built from nothing, when they had no sponsor and he had to break his bank to feed the players, mind you), savior then runs away and goes into hiding while his peers post apology letters and retire on their own accord, only posts an apology letter when his fate is pretty much sealed in court, then starts streaming only months after the incident, opens up a fanclub where you can only post if you pay a signup fee knowing he still has fans that will pay for anything, then this shit. Not a word of remorse outside of that half-hearted apology letter he probably didn't even write. Then this shit.
Fox news != news. Stop hiding behind rumors just because you need to hate something.
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EPT
