On April 01 2012 12:23 blahman3344 wrote: I'm going to have to agree with SNM on this. On the outside, the match-fixing scandal seemed to just be a phase; but in reality, that scandal caused a lot of problems for the BW scene. For the most part, the sponsorship issue is due to companies having a lack of faith in the scene, which was an after effect of the scandal. Yes Savior was a good player and yes he did have a legacy, but he threw away everything that helped to build him up just to make some extra money illegally. As much as I enjoyed savior as a player in 2007, I am biased in not liking the fact that he tries to make money off of BW.
Don't get me wrong, he can still try to make an honest living, but to be making it off something he was a part of ruining seems like a slap in the face for everyone who is deeply involved in the BW scene.
From the way everyone is talking its like he is actually making a living off of giving these lessons. Hes selling them dirt cheap to a very small group of people hes barely making any money. And that very small group of people is getting some great knowledge from a legendary gosu player.
Do you know how much money he made winning the starleauges and blizzcons? Then there is his normal pay up until 2010, he probably still a loaded bank account.
What does that have to do with anything?
I don't know man, your sentence wasn't very coherent to be honest.
Hes selling them dirt cheap to a very small group of people hes barely making any money.
Like i stated before he probably has a loaded bank account so he doesn't need to make any money at all off brood-war. But, i have no idea what his $ status at all.
lol then why make a statement like that? He doesn't need to make money off of Brood War because he probably has a lot of money but you have no idea if that's even true? Lol.
On April 01 2012 20:24 Incognoto wrote: Like, don't get me wrong, I'm not defending their actions at all. Match fixing is appalling. But I think if murderers, rapists, thieves and traders are allowed to have a second chance, then there is NO reason we can't give a second chance to someone who's done match fixing. They already have a shit reputation, at least give them a chance to fix that.
I wouldn't want murderers to become security guards with guns, I wouldn't want people who run ponzi schemes or do financial crimes to go back into the high end financial sector like banking or something, and I don't really want people who fixed matches in bw to try to extort fans by making them pay money to join a fanclub to get lessons (if I understood correctly, his fanclub is pay to get in).
Streaming bw is different and making money off of afreeca stream. He's playing the game and you can enjoy someone good at the game; you learn by watching. But trying to get people to join a fanclub for specialised lessons is just trying to milk some money.
On April 02 2012 02:52 Antisocialmunky wrote: I dunno didn't Idra charge like 50% more for SCII lessons and he was never all that great outside of beta and he left a bunch of games?
This isn't really the thread to discuss that but everyone must admit Idra has great mechanics and macro and that's good enough for lessons. The price is another story. I don't know how much Idra charges but Catz charges 80$/hour, and I doubt he's the only one charging this much, which is ridiculous considering he's not even that good.
Seriously, Savior's price is insanely low, whether you condone his behavior or not. That or SC2's prices are insanely high.
On April 01 2012 20:24 Incognoto wrote: Like, don't get me wrong, I'm not defending their actions at all. Match fixing is appalling. But I think if murderers, rapists, thieves and traders are allowed to have a second chance, then there is NO reason we can't give a second chance to someone who's done match fixing. They already have a shit reputation, at least give them a chance to fix that.
I wouldn't want murderers to become security guards with guns, I wouldn't want people who run ponzi schemes or do financial crimes to go back into the high end financial sector like banking or something, and I don't really want people who fixed matches in bw to try to extort fans by making them pay money to join a fanclub to get lessons (if I understood correctly, his fanclub is pay to get in).
Streaming bw is different and making money off of afreeca stream. He's playing the game and you can enjoy someone good at the game; you learn by watching. But trying to get people to join a fanclub for specialised lessons is just trying to milk some money.
Well I wouldn't know, it does seem like he's milking money. I guess if you do want to legitimize yourself again, having people pay to watch you might not be the best idea. Either way I'm not Savior or his lawyer. ^^....
I would have been really excited however if he started playing in the foreign scene.
On April 02 2012 02:52 Antisocialmunky wrote: I dunno didn't Idra charge like 50% more for SCII lessons and he was never all that great outside of beta and he left a bunch of games?
On April 02 2012 02:52 Antisocialmunky wrote: I dunno didn't Idra charge like 50% more for SCII lessons and he was never all that great outside of beta and he left a bunch of games?
Not 50% more, it's 1200% more, he charges 300$.
And people actually pay that much? wow... seems ridiculous..
On April 02 2012 02:52 Antisocialmunky wrote: I dunno didn't Idra charge like 50% more for SCII lessons and he was never all that great outside of beta and he left a bunch of games?
Not 50% more, it's 1200% more, he charges 300$.
And people actually pay that much? wow... seems ridiculous..
Idra doesn't like doing lessons, so he basically made it crazy expensive so that he either doesn't have to do them or gets paid a ridiculous amount for it iirc.
This should go on the blogs. savior does not even deserve a place to be on BW general. savior was the most respected player to be involved in match fixing, and he's the lowest of the lowest when dealing with the whole issue. I honestly don't even understand how people are trying to defend his position. It's like looking at people trying to defend kardashian's short marriage to kris humphries. giving second chance? only if you deserve it. savior was banned from kespa, but he still goes on to make money off of Afreeca/lessons. i love flash, but if he was involved in match-fixing, hell no i wouldn't even get a free starcraft lesson off of him if flash was acting like an ass like savior. i don't care how many years has passed since the incident, savior never came out clean and probably never will. bw looks already shaky with all the sc2 bullcrap that's been rumored to be taking place, and savior's definitely been one huge obstacle for bw scene and still is.
On April 01 2012 20:24 Incognoto wrote: Like, don't get me wrong, I'm not defending their actions at all. Match fixing is appalling. But I think if murderers, rapists, thieves and traders are allowed to have a second chance, then there is NO reason we can't give a second chance to someone who's done match fixing. They already have a shit reputation, at least give them a chance to fix that.
I wouldn't want murderers to become security guards with guns, I wouldn't want people who run ponzi schemes or do financial crimes to go back into the high end financial sector like banking or something, and I don't really want people who fixed matches in bw to try to extort fans by making them pay money to join a fanclub to get lessons (if I understood correctly, his fanclub is pay to get in).
Streaming bw is different and making money off of afreeca stream. He's playing the game and you can enjoy someone good at the game; you learn by watching. But trying to get people to join a fanclub for specialised lessons is just trying to milk some money.
it sounded to me like the fan club became a "paid" club because of people harassing him, though obviously makes money off it as well.
On April 01 2012 20:24 Incognoto wrote: iirc, Artosis once interviewed ggmagic (was that his name?) who had also been involved in the match fixing scandal. He said that while what he did was really horrible, Artosis thought that he should be given a second chance anyway. I'm kind of in agreement with that.
BW pros literally sacrifice everything to be a progamer. To see such a sacrifice without having a reasonable financial compensation can be hard. They really did hurt esports, but they also contributed a lot. Their "crime" is really nothing compared to what you see people do every day (just look at TL's general forum for all the bad things happening in this world). Especially when you see that they aren't really nasty about it; they're just young people trying to get some extra cash in.
See the problem that i have with this is that it's not "any" of those involved in the match fixing scandal, it's savior. He did sacrifice a lot to become a progamer, but he also GAINED A LOT. He's not an A teamer with little money and education who is going back to the university or has to do manual labor. He is savior, not DarkElf, UpMaGiC, Luxury or Hwasin. They will have a tougher time getting a job and imo. But savior already has a ton of money anyway, plus as someone posted in this thread he choose to live an expensive life :
And even after being banned and expelled he still made quite a lot.
Savior and Yarnc have together made almost 50 millon Won from Afreeca broadcasting alone, from a scene that he played a part in helping to destroy
And yeah, he is pretty effin "nasty" about it. He has no shame, he's milking it dry and the way he behaved...
Pay to join his fanclub, pay to follow him, pay to get lessons from him: basically only the nutty and hardcore fans who don't really care about anything else remain. you can't really get any more pathetic than that
when it's part of our culture to repent and self-reflect when you've made a mistake. savior did none of that, and that's the beef I have with him. I would be way more accepting of players like hwasin or luxury teaching BW for $25/hr
broke down in tears in front of his head coach when the police contacted CJ Entus regarding the scandal, saying "BELIEVE ME COACH I DIDNT DO IT TT_TT", coach cho believes him and defends him til the end and tries to save his ass online until it was too late, after which coach cho retires out of guilt (this is a team coach cho built from nothing, when they had no sponsor and he had to break his bank to feed the players, mind you), savior then runs away and goes into hiding while his peers post apology letters and retire on their own accord, only posts an apology letter when his fate is pretty much sealed in court, then starts streaming only months after the incident, opens up a fanclub where you can only post if you pay a signup fee knowing he still has fans that will pay for anything, then this shit. Not a word of remorse outside of that half-hearted apology letter he probably didn't even write. Then this shit.
On April 02 2012 11:21 RowdierBob wrote: He was banned from progaming, not playing BW.
I respect that some will never forgive Savior for what he did, but charging for BW lessons really doesn't have anything to do with his match-fixing.
The guy did the wrong thing, got punished and has done his time. He's entitled to move on with his life in whatever way he sees fit.
For people to compare him to high-end white collar crims and murderers is ridiculous.
He hasn't even done his time yet, he is still on probation. That's part of why it's still such a sore spot for so many fans. He past his prime way before his fall from grace anyway though, only the most rabid and zealous of fanboys stuck by him.
On April 02 2012 11:43 JooliaGillard wrote: I have always wondered if he threw that all-star series vs flash
Are you talking about their MBC Skins match? That was a long time ago. Also, it's wise not to second-guess every game you see that involved one of the players banned for match-fixing.
On April 01 2012 01:51 DwD wrote: Gogo Savior! it's time to forgive him people. He did fixed games, it's not like he murdered a bunch of babies.
He sort of murdered BW ;(
Not even close. People talked for it for what? 2 weeks? Nothing happened at all, no sponsors left, all tournaments and leagues still running. Don't be ridiculous.
I'm not so sure about that, I mean with the upcoming OSL not getting a sponsor, the past few starleagues getting sponsors only halfway through the tournament. Teams have died because of this ._. He and the other match-fixers are largely responsible for ruining BW.
OT: He does need to make some money so I do feel some sympathy for the devil, imagine how hard it'll be for him to land himself a job with a reputation and criminal record like that.
And you can attribute this to 100% being because of the match fixing?
Not 100%, but close to that figure. Bringing down a dozen or so talented players such as Luxury and a couple of teams with him sure seems significant.
Imo they didnt get dragged down by Savior, they chose on their own will to fix games. They dragged themselves down (we might have gone too far offtopic btw ^^)
your opinion is uninformed. savior introduced the players and the ppl paying for matchfixing. savior has been the middleman. savior dragged them down, there was nothing they could have done once introduced.
on topic: dont approve.
He forced them? I don't remember, were they threatened in anyway if they had declined to participate?
Once in the claws of the mafia, you dont simply say i dont wanna.
EPT
