Ex-progamer Savior who was permanently banned for participating in match fixing is starting Starcraft lessons.
Savoir revealed on his personal Afreeca page on the 27th that he was starting paid Starcraft lessons. The lessons will be streamed on the internet according to the customer's request and will have Savior himself playing and commentating.
The fee is 30000 Won (~$25USD) per 1.5 hours and the lesson will be given to groups of 2. There is a condition that you must pay for at least 3 lessons so the minimum fee required is 90000 Won (~$75USD). The post states that 'Users who record the lessons and shares them will be added to the blacklist' to prevent users who try to obtain free lessons.
Most people who heard about the news are reacting negatively. There were comments on the forum such as 'if you have a conscience, don't try to make money off of Starcraft' and 'Jo, Kyu Nam coach (Savior's ex-coach) is watching'.
On the other hands, some say that they cannot wait for Savior's lessons. Savior's paid lessons start on the 2nd of April and by today, the 29th, no one has yet applied.
Savior who participated in match fixing in Starcraft was banned permanently by the Korean-eSports association on the 7th of June 2010 and was sentenced to 1 year imprisonment, 2 years probation on the 22nd of October 2010. His probation ends on the 22nd of June this year.
Savior, banned from progaming, started an internet stream in March last year and even obtained a personal sponsor in November. Since then, as criticisms began to surface on his Afreeca page and in the chat, starting January this year, only those who pay a fee to join his fanclub are allowed to post on the forum.
Picture of the paid lessons notice posted by Savior himself
edit: to the people saying that the title needs to be changed, I just want to put it out there that I simply translated the title of the Korean article. If the mods still feel the need to change, I guess it can't be helped. I just wanted people to know that I didn't come up with the title or any of the sentiment expressed in the article.
30k won is quite a lot (compared to the other afreeca bjs) players like eagle/anytime do it for 10-15k won p/hr iirc. that being said, you are learning from probably the greatest strategic zerg ever to play bw.
To bad about what sAviOr did. But, I still loved watching the guy play. Still my favorite player of all time.
I do agree, more with the side, that he shouldn't be trying to make money off of Starcraft. The timing of the release of what he did couldn't have been worse, and was a huge blow to the esports scene. BUT- I also understand that he is doing this. He obviously loves the game, and wants to make money doing what he is good at.
Everyone makes mistakes, and all that kinna stuff, but it would be more respectable for him, imo, to just bow out of the scene as gracefully as possible at this point.
On March 29 2012 23:06 GTR wrote: 30k won is quite a lot. players like eagle/anytime do it for 10-15k won p/hr iirc.
welp at least it's cheaper than idra.
Anytime - isn't he still playing in proleague and shit? Mind you I haven't watched BW for almost a year so maybe I'm behind the times.
Seriously, a man's got to eat when a man's got to eat. Just think of all the stars that have been shamed... If I followed pop culture more often I'd probably know who to list... But all those stars that have affairs and shit - you think their fans are gonna give a shit? No, they'd still fork out money to meet their stars. Heck, I'd pay $35 to meet Savior for one and a half hours, even if it's not to take lessons, but to talk about old SC days.
Wow, despite what he did, he's still one of the smartest out there :O.
I'm sure there's gonna be people that sign up, $3525 seems like a fine really cheap price for such a legend teaching you. Can't believe he's still squeezing out money from all his fans though, he should just move on ;;
Edit: I kinda wish I knew Korean, I mean it's sAviOr, and it's only $3525, no name people in SC2 frequently ask for more $ than this O.o
Savior was one of the core group involved in the scandal that triggered a huge crumble of the scene. Although arguable to some degree, his actions resulted in a dozen or so progamers and B-teamers losing their job and their career dreams. Moreover, it was openly admitted in the Adieu MBCGame program that Savior played an integral role in the eventual closing of MBCGame. On one hand, Savior is one hell of a cunning guy - he is still finding ways to milk the money out of the very business he destroyed himself. On the other hand, I can't imagine how much twisted evil thoughts reside in his mind...
I'll take the one positive thing from this news and hopefully remember that one only - there are still fans excited enough about the legendary game of SCBW that they'd pay good money for lessons from a publicly denounced figure.
Interesting news. I wonder how good Savior really is now that he's been out of the loop for a while, or does he still get practice vs people still in the industry. I'm thinking once you fall out of the circle and the metagame progresses it's difficult to keep up.
How is his apm these days? Has he played any legit players? Does anyone still hang out with him? We need rekrul.
I'm thankful that his deep and unique understanding of the game would not get completely wasted, but hopefully spread to others and memorized. He's not competing, so he's not breaking his ban, I think it's okay to teach others.
Idra won't even look at you for $3525* per 1.5 hours for 2 students. Savior is one of the greatest if not the greatest to ever play.
/* OP corrected 35->25, in fact. Well, for this I doubt Idra would let you even clean his shoes.
On March 29 2012 23:15 a9arnn wrote: Wow, despite what he did, he's still one of the smartest out there :O.
I'm sure there's gonna be people that sign up, $35 seems like a fine price such a legend teaching you. Can't believe he's still squeezing out money from all his fans though, he should just move on ;;
Edit: I kinda wish I knew Korean, I mean it's sAviOr, and it's only $35, no name people in SC2 frequently ask for more $ than this O.o
oh crap, I said 35$ for 30000 Won. It's meant to be the other way around, i.e. 25$ for 30000 won. Editing now
Pay to join his fanclub, pay to follow him, pay to get lessons from him: basically only the nutty and hardcore fans who don't really care about anything else remain. you can't really get any more pathetic than that
I think you shouldn't look at his past. He paid the price heavily and will still be paying it for the rest of his life, and given the chance to go back in time to change things, maybe he would, but rarely in life are there second chances right?
So even if he got his punishment, the reputation and shame associated with what he did makes it very difficult for him to work in a regular job at a company, and he cannot compete in SC or other games anymore as a job, so it makes perfect sense for him to do this.
I say go ahead and "redeem" yourself in the eyes of as many people as you can (many people will not forgive you that's true) and at least he is trying to do something legitimate to gain money this time around. I see it as a way to start over.
If anything Savior clearly did a huge mistake with terrible consequences for everyone that he cannot comprehend. The guy needs help and support and A CHANCE to being accepted again. Everyone deserves a second chance even if the crime was stabbing the Starcraft scene with a dagger in the back (actually he thought he was just stabbing his team, achievements, and fans, which in itself is still a big crime), but in reality it was much bigger than that.
So yeah, I think if it is something legitimate then he has the right to go ahead and do it, and you guys should support him for choosing a legitimate path. He wouldn't be the DESTROYER if he gave up and lived in shame for the rest of his life, would he?
On March 29 2012 23:28 bahaa wrote: I think you shouldn't look at his past. He paid the price heavily and will still be paying it for the rest of his life, and given the chance to go back in time to change things, maybe he would, but rarely in life are there second chances right?
So even if he got his punishment, the reputation and shame associated with what he did makes it very difficult for him to work in a regular job at a company, and he cannot compete in SC or other games anymore as a job, so it makes perfect sense for him to do this.
I say go ahead and "redeem" yourself in the eyes of as many people as you can (many people will not forgive you that's true) and at least he is trying to something legitimate to gain money this time around. I see it as a way to start over.
If anything Savior clearly did a huge mistake with terrible consequences for everyone that he cannot comprehend. The guys needs help and support and A CHANCE for being accepted again. Everyone deserves a second chance even if the crime was stabbing the Starcraft scene with a dagger in the back (actually he thought he was just stabbing his team and fans, whihc itself is still a big crime), but in reality it was much bigger than that.
So yeah, I think if it is something legitimate then he has the right to go ahead and do it, and you guys should support him for choosing a legitimate path. He wouldn't be the DESTROYER if he gave up and lived in shame for the rest of his life, would he?
Most people would say if he had any remorse he would give up any public association with BW.
Most people would say if he had any remorse he would give up any public association with BW.
You need to put yourself in his place. He did something terrible, and he was punished accordingly. It's hard for him to be accepted socially or to find a regular job. To those people, I'd say it's what he knows best and needs to do inorder to feel that he's still worth something or can be potentially worth something by teaching the game he betrayed to those in need, and therefore attempting to make up for what he did. Just let him do it.
On March 29 2012 23:05 Firebolt145 wrote: Hmm. I'm not surprised about the negative reaction, but I'm pretty sure he'll get a few customers just because of who he is.
I agree. And $25 per 1.5 hours? From an actual bonjwa? You've got to be crazy to pass that up if you want to get better, even if you're forced to pay for three sessions.
Ridiculously cheap. I have no idea why it's not at least $100/ hour to be honest. He's one of the best players of all time.
Most people would say if he had any remorse he would give up any public association with BW.
You need to put yourself in his place. He did something terrible, and he was punished accordingly. It's hard for him to be accepted socially or to find a regular job. To those people, I'd say it's what he knows best and needs to do inorder to feel that he's still worth something or can be potentially worth something by teaching the game he betrayed to those in need, and therefore attempting to make up for what he did. Just let him do it.
I'm not saying he should be arrested but for the majority of the BW community, foreign/Korean alike, don't think he should be making a living off coaching BW after he so heavily damaged the scene we are so passionate about.
Looks like he's not getting many signups so probably won't be a big deal.
On March 29 2012 23:28 bahaa wrote: I think you shouldn't look at his past. He paid the price heavily and will still be paying it for the rest of his life, and given the chance to go back in time to change things, maybe he would, but rarely in life are there second chances right?
So even if he got his punishment, the reputation and shame associated with what he did makes it very difficult for him to work in a regular job at a company, and he cannot compete in SC or other games anymore as a job, so it makes perfect sense for him to do this.
I say go ahead and "redeem" yourself in the eyes of as many people as you can (many people will not forgive you that's true) and at least he is trying to something legitimate to gain money this time around. I see it as a way to start over.
If anything Savior clearly did a huge mistake with terrible consequences for everyone that he cannot comprehend. The guys needs help and support and A CHANCE for being accepted again. Everyone deserves a second chance even if the crime was stabbing the Starcraft scene with a dagger in the back (actually he thought he was just stabbing his team and fans, whihc itself is still a big crime), but in reality it was much bigger than that.
So yeah, I think if it is something legitimate then he has the right to go ahead and do it, and you guys should support him for choosing a legitimate path. He wouldn't be the DESTROYER if he gave up and lived in shame for the rest of his life, would he?
Most people would say if he had any remorse he would give up any public association with BW.
You realize that this is an arbitrary/superficial association line? Is playing BW the same as being registered Kespa progamer, competing in Starleagues for great glory and money? You also need to use fingers to play, should he cut off all his fingers and never use them now?
If a professional runner gets banned from professional running, should he cut off his legs and never use them again?
The fact is, Savior teaching BW is perfectly legal, otherwise he would be in jail again already. He is allowed officially to do it, so why not do it. You don't like the guy, don't get into his lessons, that's all.
I'm not really bothered by this. I agree in him being banned from professional gaming, but I think that's enough. He should be able to play as an amateur or teach if he wants to. I just think it's sad that he can't let go of BW. He's a bright 24 year old, and he probably have enough money to invest into a new career. Plus, his BW career was kind of over when he was caught, so he should have moved on either way.
On March 29 2012 23:33 S2Glow wrote: how many lesson you learn is kinda useless. is how much time you practice =P
Er no.
You miss the point of lessons. You can practice to your hearts content but it means absolutely nothing unless you know what you're doing wrong. This is what will help with that.
That being said if I could speak Korean I'd do this in a heartbeat because uh...it's savior and his shady dealings with match fixing have absolutely nothing to do with the sheer skill he has.
I've got some words to say to Savior (not insults), does anybody know if he understands English and if there is a way I can contact him, or if someone can get my message to him?
I hate savior for what he has done but my mind is still having tough time accepting that he caused all the match fixing scandal . I mean back than I was referring to these guy as "The Man" for broodwar and ever since than I have trouble pointing to one guy who guy is damn good at the zerg race . I hope Jaedong will surpass and become the new bonjwa of course without any of these shenanigans .
On March 29 2012 23:25 white_horse wrote: Pay to join his fanclub, pay to follow him, pay to get lessons from him: basically only the nutty and hardcore fans who don't really care about anything else remain. you can't really get any more pathetic than that
Are you really whining about the price of FUCKING SAVIOR's lessons when SC2 pros take more money/hour? What the actual fuck?
On March 29 2012 23:25 white_horse wrote: Pay to join his fanclub, pay to follow him, pay to get lessons from him: basically only the nutty and hardcore fans who don't really care about anything else remain. you can't really get any more pathetic than that
Are you really whining about the price of FUCKING SAVIOR's lessons when SC2 pros take more money/hour? What the actual fuck?
/insert shut up and take my money meme
love this post :D
Wish I still played broodwar and understood korean T_T this would have been perfect =/
On March 29 2012 23:28 bahaa wrote: I think you shouldn't look at his past. He paid the price heavily and will still be paying it for the rest of his life, and given the chance to go back in time to change things, maybe he would, but rarely in life are there second chances right?
So even if he got his punishment, the reputation and shame associated with what he did makes it very difficult for him to work in a regular job at a company, and he cannot compete in SC or other games anymore as a job, so it makes perfect sense for him to do this.
I say go ahead and "redeem" yourself in the eyes of as many people as you can (many people will not forgive you that's true) and at least he is trying to something legitimate to gain money this time around. I see it as a way to start over.
If anything Savior clearly did a huge mistake with terrible consequences for everyone that he cannot comprehend. The guys needs help and support and A CHANCE for being accepted again. Everyone deserves a second chance even if the crime was stabbing the Starcraft scene with a dagger in the back (actually he thought he was just stabbing his team and fans, whihc itself is still a big crime), but in reality it was much bigger than that.
So yeah, I think if it is something legitimate then he has the right to go ahead and do it, and you guys should support him for choosing a legitimate path. He wouldn't be the DESTROYER if he gave up and lived in shame for the rest of his life, would he?
Most people would say if he had any remorse he would give up any public association with BW.
You realize that this is an arbitrary/superficial association line? Is playing BW the same as being registered Kespa progamer, competing in Starleagues for great glory and money? You also need to use fingers to play, should he cut off all his fingers and never use them now?
If a professional runner gets banned from professional running, should he cut off his legs and never use them again?
The fact is, Savior teaching BW is perfectly legal, otherwise he would be in jail again already. He is allowed officially to do it, so why not do it. You don't like the guy, don't get into his lessons, that's all.
Yes, so are most lines associated with fandom. No. No. No.
I never said it was illegal. Idk why you're bringing these points up.
I look at it like the Tim Donaghy scandal in the NBA. After he served his punishment, everyone would still be super pissed if he got a gig trying to ref a high school game. There comes a point when after you so heavily damage your industry that many (especially Koreans) just don't want to see your face again. Like it or not this shit happens in the real world. You think anyone would ever give Bernie Madoff a job in the finance industry even if he somehow got released? It is legal and is perfectly within his rights to do it. I'm not saying he should be locked up in a labor camp but my personal opinion is what he's doing is in poor taste.
Nice biased title. Could we try to be a little more objective about this?
On March 30 2012 00:03 Condor Hero wrote: I look at it like the Tim Donaghy scandal in the NBA. After he served his punishment, everyone would still be super pissed if he got a gig trying to ref a high school game. There comes a point when after you so heavily damage your industry that many (especially Koreans) just don't want to see your face again. Like it or not this shit happens in the real world. You think anyone would ever give Bernie Madoff a job in the finance industry even if he somehow got released? It is legal and is perfectly within his rights to do it. I'm not saying he should be locked up in a labor camp but my personal opinion is what he's doing is in poor taste.
This is the kind of attitude that makes the American legal system a piece of trash.
I think this is good. How is it bad? Progamers usually don't have high degrees and they must get by somehow. The match fixers have it especially hard. 75$ for 4,5hours of Savior teaching you, which you can divide with your friend, that's just sick good deal.
The court punished the match fixers well enough, there's no need for me to judge them further.
I guess he couldn't help it - and it seems like a reasonable price (although obviously it would have been in a completely different light had it been for free).
The title "Match Fixing sAviOr" is slightly annoying though. Most everybody and their mothers should know at least those three words without someone putting it in their faces every time.
I also don't like how he's trying to prevent VOD-sharing...it's not like someone's just gonna look at 3 sAviOr VODs and say "OK I learned everything". To improve with others' FPVODs takes a lot of ingraining after getting used to the same old things people do every game and I don't think sAviOr will lose much just by having VODs of other people randomly fucking up on the block.
On March 30 2012 00:19 HwangjaeTerran wrote: I think this is good. How is it bad? Progamers usually don't have high degrees and they must get by somehow. The match fixers have it especially hard. 75$ for 4,5hours of Savior teaching you, which you can divide with your friend, that's just sick good deal.
The court punished the match fixers well enough, there's no need for me to judge them further.
Yeah if you're okay with it it is an awesome value for a bonjwa to coach you. I wonder why nobody's signing up?
Is it a lot of money for Koreans to pay for coaching? Even mid tier NA SC2 pros charge like $40~ right?
Another thing to note - it's respectable that he didn't try to do this "underground". Which would have been still legal, of course, but when people found out that Savior is making money from "secret" private lessons, they would probably find it even more disturbing. Instead - he chooses to be absolutely transparent about it, and about his price, and even stream it officially.
Gotta say, I admire the spirit of this guy, many others would find themselves psychologically ruined for life, perhaps drunk and useless. Instead he tries to give back to the community in the only way left open for him.
On March 30 2012 00:19 HwangjaeTerran wrote: I think this is good. How is it bad? Progamers usually don't have high degrees and they must get by somehow. The match fixers have it especially hard. 75$ for 4,5hours of Savior teaching you, which you can divide with your friend, that's just sick good deal.
The court punished the match fixers well enough, there's no need for me to judge them further.
That's such a good deal TBH. If I understood Korean fluently, I would buy 2 hours of his time to just go back and forth with him about zvt.
Yeah, he essentially participated in a serial fraud scheme, but I can't stay mad at the guy man, his zvt was so beast (and I'm sure it still is) and when I watch him on afreeca I get reminded of the bonjwa days.
#freesavior <3 <3
On March 30 2012 00:24 figq wrote: Another thing to note - it's respectable that he didn't try to do this "underground". Which would have been still legal, of course, but when people found out that Savior is making money from "secret" private lessons, they would probably find it even more disturbing. Instead - he chooses to be absolutely transparent about it, and about his price, and even stream it officially.
Gotta say, I admire the spirit of this guy, many others would find themselves psychologically ruined for life, perhaps drunk and useless. Instead he tries to give back to the community in the only way left open for him.
Yeah man, I totally agree. Is this actually illegal by KR law? I thought his ban was simply to the extent of proleague and kespa.
Is there any evidence whatsoever of Savior being a 'terrible, evil person' that so many haters picture him to be, other than the fact that he made a ridiculously stupid decision at one single point in his pro-gaming career? It's kind of far-fetched to paint him as some kind of an evil mastermind lurking in his dungeon, hatching plans of genocide and world domination...
On March 29 2012 23:16 OpticalShot wrote: Very, very disappointed.
Savior was one of the core group involved in the scandal that triggered a huge crumble of the scene. Although arguable to some degree, his actions resulted in a dozen or so progamers and B-teamers losing their job and their career dreams. Moreover, it was openly admitted in the Adieu MBCGame program that Savior played an integral role in the eventual closing of MBCGame. On one hand, Savior is one hell of a cunning guy - he is still finding ways to milk the money out of the very business he destroyed himself. On the other hand, I can't imagine how much twisted evil thoughts reside in his mind...
I'll take the one positive thing from this news and hopefully remember that one only - there are still fans excited enough about the legendary game of SCBW that they'd pay good money for lessons from a publicly denounced figure.
You can be angry about what Savior did, but I think it's unfair to be angry at what Savior for what other players did. Everyone is responsible for themselves. A dozen or so other progamers got themselves involved, not Savior. If you're gonna blame Savior for getting them involved, let's go all the way up the ladder to the bad people Savior met that got him involved, k? Does that sounds stupid and make it seem like Savior wasn't responsible? That's why people have to be responsible for themselves.
He was in jail for a year, probation for 2. That doesn't look good on your resume. Being self-employed like this is probably one of the few things he can really do to sustain himself. Does he repent in other ways? I don't know. We have very little of the full story, but I maintain that he made stupid mistakes and was too worried about being cool with bad groups of people.
It's clear that Savior's actions contributed to the scandal, which in term contributed to troubled times for the scene, but neither were by themselves significant. As far as "twisted evil thoughts" ... Not much more twisted than the celebrities in every entertainment business who get rich fast, get involved with bad people, and ruin their careers. The only difference is that those industries see it as normal.
On March 29 2012 23:16 OpticalShot wrote: Very, very disappointed.
Savior was one of the core group involved in the scandal that triggered a huge crumble of the scene. Although arguable to some degree, his actions resulted in a dozen or so progamers and B-teamers losing their job and their career dreams. Moreover, it was openly admitted in the Adieu MBCGame program that Savior played an integral role in the eventual closing of MBCGame. On one hand, Savior is one hell of a cunning guy - he is still finding ways to milk the money out of the very business he destroyed himself. On the other hand, I can't imagine how much twisted evil thoughts reside in his mind...
I'll take the one positive thing from this news and hopefully remember that one only - there are still fans excited enough about the legendary game of SCBW that they'd pay good money for lessons from a publicly denounced figure.
You can be angry about what Savior did, but I think it's unfair to be angry at what Savior for what other players did. Everyone is responsible for themselves. A dozen or so other progamers got themselves involved, not Savior. If you're gonna blame Savior for getting them involved, let's go all the way up the ladder to the bad people Savior met that got him involved, k? Does that sounds stupid and make it seem like Savior wasn't responsible? That's why people have to be responsible for themselves.
He was in jail for a year, probation for 2. That doesn't look good on your resume. Being self-employed like this is probably one of the few things he can really do to sustain himself. Does he repent in other ways? I don't know. We have very little of the full story, but I maintain that he made stupid mistakes and was too worried about being cool with bad groups of people.
It's clear that Savior's actions contributed to the scandal, which in term contributed to troubled times for the scene, but neither were by themselves significant. As far as "twisted evil thoughts" ... Not much more twisted than the celebrities in every entertainment business who get rich fast, get involved with bad people, and ruin their careers. The only difference is that those industries see it as normal.
On March 30 2012 00:27 Sethronu wrote: Is there any evidence whatsoever of Savior being a 'terrible, evil person' that so many haters picture him to be, other than the fact that he made a ridiculously stupid decision at one single point in his pro-gaming career? It's kind of far-fetched to paint him as some kind of an evil mastermind lurking in his dungeon, hatching plans of genocide and world domination...
No. It's just petty judgment and mob justice at this point in time.
Hmm, k, I get that what Savior did was wrong and all but what's the point of keep being angry about it? I mean you should know when to forgive people right? Like people have already mentioned, 2 years probation doesn't look good on your resume so maybe this is his last choice. Also people should stop looking things with black and white, "twisted evil thoughts"? lol. Though I can't agree with the paying fees to be in his fanclub, that's pretty low.
On March 29 2012 23:16 OpticalShot wrote: Very, very disappointed.
Savior was one of the core group involved in the scandal that triggered a huge crumble of the scene. Although arguable to some degree, his actions resulted in a dozen or so progamers and B-teamers losing their job and their career dreams. Moreover, it was openly admitted in the Adieu MBCGame program that Savior played an integral role in the eventual closing of MBCGame. On one hand, Savior is one hell of a cunning guy - he is still finding ways to milk the money out of the very business he destroyed himself. On the other hand, I can't imagine how much twisted evil thoughts reside in his mind...
I'll take the one positive thing from this news and hopefully remember that one only - there are still fans excited enough about the legendary game of SCBW that they'd pay good money for lessons from a publicly denounced figure.
You can be angry about what Savior did, but I think it's unfair to be angry at what Savior for what other players did. Everyone is responsible for themselves. A dozen or so other progamers got themselves involved, not Savior. If you're gonna blame Savior for getting them involved, let's go all the way up the ladder to the bad people Savior met that got him involved, k? Does that sounds stupid and make it seem like Savior wasn't responsible? That's why people have to be responsible for themselves.
He was in jail for a year, probation for 2. That doesn't look good on your resume. Being self-employed like this is probably one of the few things he can really do to sustain himself. Does he repent in other ways? I don't know. We have very little of the full story, but I maintain that he made stupid mistakes and was too worried about being cool with bad groups of people.
It's clear that Savior's actions contributed to the scandal, which in term contributed to troubled times for the scene, but neither were by themselves significant. As far as "twisted evil thoughts" ... Not much more twisted than the celebrities in every entertainment business who get rich fast, get involved with bad people, and ruin their careers. The only difference is that those industries see it as normal.
Savior never went to jail.
sentenced to 1 year imprisonment, 2 years probation on the 22nd of October 2010. His probation ends on the 22nd of June this year.
So what. He had a choice between a year of imprisonment or 2 years probation? Whether you think that's enough or not, he's still got a criminal record and lost his job.
On March 29 2012 23:43 ninini wrote: I'm not really bothered by this. I agree in him being banned from professional gaming, but I think that's enough. He should be able to play as an amateur or teach if he wants to. I just think it's sad that he can't let go of BW. He's a bright 24 year old, and he probably have enough money to invest into a new career. Plus, his BW career was kind of over when he was caught, so he should have moved on either way.
Isn't that pretty much impossible considering his criminal record? I can only imagine how hard it must be in S.Korea...
Yesyes, Savior made one stupid decision at one point at his life. Dude, he was not Neo whose one decision changed his whole life. Rather I am pretty sure he made this decision over a span of time. Things like these are never singular oneshot non-multistage non-multi-period non-dynamic decisions.
On March 30 2012 00:35 brachester wrote: Hmm, k, I get that what Savior did was wrong and all but what's the point of keep being angry about it? I mean you should know when to forgive people right? Like people have already mentioned, 2 years probation doesn't look good on your resume so maybe this is his last choice. Also people should stop looking things with black and white, "twisted evil thoughts"? lol. Though I can't agree with the paying fees to be in his fanclub, that's pretty low.
I have no idea why people think it's so easy to forgive him, when the match fixing scandal ruined years of effort trying to build a scene from the ground up.
On March 30 2012 00:24 figq wrote: Another thing to note - it's respectable that he didn't try to do this "underground". Which would have been still legal, of course, but when people found out that Savior is making money from "secret" private lessons, they would probably find it even more disturbing. Instead - he chooses to be absolutely transparent about it, and about his price, and even stream it officially.
Gotta say, I admire the spirit of this guy, many others would find themselves psychologically ruined for life, perhaps drunk and useless. Instead he tries to give back to the community in the only way left open for him.
Why is that respectable? He's trying to get customers.
The idea that this is giving back to the community is absolutely laughable. He's trying to make money.
I suppose he wants to make money where he can, can't say I blame him for trying since he probally doesn't have a steady source of income and can't do manual labour ala perfectman with his knee being as it is.
Well I'd rather blame people taking the lessons than him for making the opportunity for the lessons
An incredibly low price to have the greatest Zerg player ever coach you? Lol, anyone upset about this has to either be joking or heartless, come on, give the guy a break already. If I was into bw still, and if had extra cash right now, this would be an awesome thing to spend it on.
Oh, and really quick, random question that I've had for a while - does Savior's ban on Starcraft include SC2? Does anyone know? Too bad he doesn't switch to that, he'd probably have a lot more people willing to take lessons :D
On March 30 2012 00:56 Arceus wrote: I find it funny that ppl say $25 for 1.5 hours is dirt cheap but are reluctant to pay the same bucks for one season of GSL/MLG/etc
GSL season tickets don't exaclty make you a better player, though.
On March 30 2012 00:56 Arceus wrote: I find it funny that ppl say $25 for 1.5 hours is dirt cheap but are reluctant to pay the same bucks for one season of GSL/MLG/etc
I am not so sure about SK's living standard. But in Canada, you can make more than a living with the 25 bucks per 1.5 hours. That will include rent, electricity/gas bills, food and internet fees. On top of that, you are still able to place some superfluous income into your savings.
I don't think his intention to make money is wrong because that is one of the reasons most people coach in the first place. Savior isn't really taking advantage of anyone. Its people's money and they can do what they want with it. If people are willing to offer money and are interested in being coached then why not. I personally think this is a better way than living off donations from his fans since hes actually being paid in exchange for something. Don't think anyone really has a legit reason to hate on what hes doing.
I would have to agree with Kona, he was a great player for the game up to a point, but he turned out to be a terrible person. He was young and dumb though which is still not really an excuse.
On March 30 2012 00:56 Arceus wrote: I find it funny that ppl say $25 for 1.5 hours is dirt cheap but are reluctant to pay the same bucks for one season of GSL/MLG/etc
I am not so sure about SK's living standard. But in Canada, you can make more than a living with the 25 bucks per 1.5 hours. That will include rent, electricity/gas bills, food and internet fees. On top of that, you are still able to place some superfluous income into your savings.
Depends where you live in Canada, every place is different.
Extremely controversial, but not wrong. Most people here can agree with one, he was great player(to say the least), he is coaching starcraft not match fixing.
At this point in time, translating articles like these only bring out the "ugly" of the community. It's better if articles about savior aren't translated at all (not saying that you shouldn't translate articles at all).
I still find it funny that people are talking about "oh, he made one wrong choice in life" "psh that wasn't a big deal, it's in the past" etc. Then let me ask you a question: Did you truly enjoy MyStarleague that they did instead of regular OSL season last year? Did you enjoy the long off-season of Proleague with speculations that it might not happen again (same goes for OSL)? Did you truly enjoy the news of MBC Game being shut down? If you said No to one of these questions, then I don't know what the fuck's wrong with you. Maybe you just didn't know how huge the impact of match fixing was, or you're just trying to runaway from the truth.
MyStarleague happened because OSL couldn't get any sponsors after Bacchus. Weird, huh? Last time OSL couldn't find sponsors was Daum Starleague and they just went ahead with the league without any sponsors. JinAir OSL sponsorship was announced sometime into the league, not before the group selection. And this upcoming OSL is in the same situation: still no sponsorship. When did the most prestigious league in BroodWar have hard time getting sponsorship in OSL, especially after the amazing finals like the reverse sweep in Korean Air season 1 and legend of the fall in Jin Air?
I don't even need to discuss MBCGame because I posted few pictures from MBCGame that directly proves that some "incidents" had an effect on closure of the station.
I'm just going to leave questions here. It is okay if you follow someone who's good at playing this game. But if you're going to ignore the facts, you might as well ignore the Korean BroodWar scene along with it.
EDIT: One last question: If this person did have huge impact on BW scene, is it still justifiable for him to make money off from something that he helped destroy?
On March 30 2012 00:56 Arceus wrote: I find it funny that ppl say $25 for 1.5 hours is dirt cheap but are reluctant to pay the same bucks for one season of GSL/MLG/etc
I'm not even sure why you don't understand how un-fucking-related the two are. Different products for different people. -
I can't help but wonder what would happen to any actual broodwar player getting caught getting lessons from savior.
On March 30 2012 01:13 supernovamaniac wrote: At this point in time, translating articles like these only bring out the "ugly" of the community. It's better if articles about savior aren't translated at all (not saying that you shouldn't translate articles at all).
I still find it funny that people are talking about "oh, he made one wrong choice in life" "psh that wasn't a big deal, it's in the past" etc. Then let me ask you a question: Did you truly enjoy MyStarleague that they did instead of regular OSL season last year? Did you enjoy the long off-season of Proleague with speculations that it might not happen again (same goes for OSL)? Did you truly enjoy the news of MBC Game being shut down? If you said No to one of these questions, then I don't know what the fuck's wrong with you. Maybe you just didn't know how huge the impact of match fixing was, or you're just trying to runaway from the truth.
MyStarleague happened because OSL couldn't get any sponsors after Bacchus. Weird, huh? Last time OSL couldn't find sponsors was Daum Starleague and they just went ahead with the league without any sponsors. JinAir OSL sponsorship was announced sometime into the league, not before the group selection. And this upcoming OSL is in the same situation: still no sponsorship. When did the most prestigious league in BroodWar have hard time getting sponsorship in OSL, especially after the amazing finals like the reverse sweep in Korean Air season 1 and legend of the fall in Jin Air?
I don't even need to discuss MBCGame because I posted few pictures from MBCGame that directly proves that some "incidents" had an effect on closure of the station.
I'm just going to leave questions here. It is okay if you follow someone who's good at playing this game. But if you're going to ignore the facts, you might as well ignore the Korean BroodWar scene along with it.
EDIT: One last question: If this person did have huge impact on BW scene, is it still justifiable for him to make money off from something that he helped destroy?
One of the main criticisms people have about the justice systems in Canada and America is that because having a criminal record is so detrimental, there isn't really a good system in place for reintegrating criminals into productive members of society, which is the "goal" of the justice system. This isn't some anime where Savior is gonna go live on a farm for the rest of his life regretting his sins. The matchfixing scandal and Savior coaching now are two very different things. The matchfixing scandal is undeniably bad. Savior trying to earn an honest living after his crimes is not. Does Savior have to commit crimes for the rest of his life to get by because people still hold a grudge against him? Don't let him compete: ok. Criticise him for living his life? This is the same problem scholars argue about in Law studies. It's better to reintegrate people into society than to punish them forever.
I think all of your questions are ludicrous. If you can't forgive him, that's your personal decision, but if other people can, let them. I love Brood War a lot, but I'm not going to be pig headed looking for scapegoats.
On March 30 2012 01:05 Ilikestarcraft wrote: I don't think his intention to make money is wrong because that is one of the reasons most people coach in the first place. Savior isn't really taking advantage of anyone. Its people's money and they can do what they want with it. If people are willing to offer money and are interested in being coached then why not. I personally think this is a better way than living off donations from his fans since hes actually being paid in exchange for something. Don't think anyone really has a legit reason to hate on what hes doing.
Yeah, I agree with this. Savior has been playing BW since his teens right? Outside of pro-gaming what is he actually qualified to do, does he have any type of education at all? The guy has got to be able to support himself somehow, and what he is offering is something of relatively high value. I don't think this situation hurts anyone or does any more damage to BW/esports. So honestly, I say let the guy be.
On March 30 2012 01:13 supernovamaniac wrote: At this point in time, translating articles like these only bring out the "ugly" of the community. It's better if articles about savior aren't translated at all (not saying that you shouldn't translate articles at all).
I still find it funny that people are talking about "oh, he made one wrong choice in life" "psh that wasn't a big deal, it's in the past" etc. Then let me ask you a question: Did you truly enjoy MyStarleague that they did instead of regular OSL season last year? Did you enjoy the long off-season of Proleague with speculations that it might not happen again (same goes for OSL)? Did you truly enjoy the news of MBC Game being shut down? If you said No to one of these questions, then I don't know what the fuck's wrong with you. Maybe you just didn't know how huge the impact of match fixing was, or you're just trying to runaway from the truth.
MyStarleague happened because OSL couldn't get any sponsors after Bacchus. Weird, huh? Last time OSL couldn't find sponsors was Daum Starleague and they just went ahead with the league without any sponsors. JinAir OSL sponsorship was announced sometime into the league, not before the group selection. And this upcoming OSL is in the same situation: still no sponsorship. When did the most prestigious league in BroodWar have hard time getting sponsorship in OSL, especially after the amazing finals like the reverse sweep in Korean Air season 1 and legend of the fall in Jin Air?
I don't even need to discuss MBCGame because I posted few pictures from MBCGame that directly proves that some "incidents" had an effect on closure of the station.
I'm just going to leave questions here. It is okay if you follow someone who's good at playing this game. But if you're going to ignore the facts, you might as well ignore the Korean BroodWar scene along with it.
EDIT: One last question: If this person did have huge impact on BW scene, is it still justifiable for him to make money off from something that he helped destroy?
I'm sure the people that will be spending money on this know full well the situation and since it's their money theres nothing wrong with them spending however they want.
I'm going to be harsh on this If he was really remorseful, he wouldn't try and make money using his fans He betrayed his fans and BW fans, and he's still using his reputation and the "popularity" of BW to make money. He made money using other players, he made money off of BW. Now he's still doing it.
On March 30 2012 01:13 supernovamaniac wrote: At this point in time, translating articles like these only bring out the "ugly" of the community. It's better if articles about savior aren't translated at all (not saying that you shouldn't translate articles at all).
I still find it funny that people are talking about "oh, he made one wrong choice in life" "psh that wasn't a big deal, it's in the past" etc. Then let me ask you a question: Did you truly enjoy MyStarleague that they did instead of regular OSL season last year? Did you enjoy the long off-season of Proleague with speculations that it might not happen again (same goes for OSL)? Did you truly enjoy the news of MBC Game being shut down? If you said No to one of these questions, then I don't know what the fuck's wrong with you. Maybe you just didn't know how huge the impact of match fixing was, or you're just trying to runaway from the truth.
MyStarleague happened because OSL couldn't get any sponsors after Bacchus. Weird, huh? Last time OSL couldn't find sponsors was Daum Starleague and they just went ahead with the league without any sponsors. JinAir OSL sponsorship was announced sometime into the league, not before the group selection. And this upcoming OSL is in the same situation: still no sponsorship. When did the most prestigious league in BroodWar have hard time getting sponsorship in OSL, especially after the amazing finals like the reverse sweep in Korean Air season 1 and legend of the fall in Jin Air?
I don't even need to discuss MBCGame because I posted few pictures from MBCGame that directly proves that some "incidents" had an effect on closure of the station.
I'm just going to leave questions here. It is okay if you follow someone who's good at playing this game. But if you're going to ignore the facts, you might as well ignore the Korean BroodWar scene along with it.
EDIT: One last question: If this person did have huge impact on BW scene, is it still justifiable for him to make money off from something that he helped destroy?
SC2 Fans: "Omg a good BW player who isn't playing BW? We should forgive him so he can play SC2! Causing the downfall of the scene? Who cares, you guys just can't get over it."
On March 30 2012 01:13 supernovamaniac wrote: At this point in time, translating articles like these only bring out the "ugly" of the community. It's better if articles about savior aren't translated at all (not saying that you shouldn't translate articles at all).
I still find it funny that people are talking about "oh, he made one wrong choice in life" "psh that wasn't a big deal, it's in the past" etc. Then let me ask you a question: Did you truly enjoy MyStarleague that they did instead of regular OSL season last year? Did you enjoy the long off-season of Proleague with speculations that it might not happen again (same goes for OSL)? Did you truly enjoy the news of MBC Game being shut down? If you said No to one of these questions, then I don't know what the fuck's wrong with you. Maybe you just didn't know how huge the impact of match fixing was, or you're just trying to runaway from the truth.
MyStarleague happened because OSL couldn't get any sponsors after Bacchus. Weird, huh? Last time OSL couldn't find sponsors was Daum Starleague and they just went ahead with the league without any sponsors. JinAir OSL sponsorship was announced sometime into the league, not before the group selection. And this upcoming OSL is in the same situation: still no sponsorship. When did the most prestigious league in BroodWar have hard time getting sponsorship in OSL, especially after the amazing finals like the reverse sweep in Korean Air season 1 and legend of the fall in Jin Air?
I don't even need to discuss MBCGame because I posted few pictures from MBCGame that directly proves that some "incidents" had an effect on closure of the station.
I'm just going to leave questions here. It is okay if you follow someone who's good at playing this game. But if you're going to ignore the facts, you might as well ignore the Korean BroodWar scene along with it.
EDIT: One last question: If this person did have huge impact on BW scene, is it still justifiable for him to make money off from something that he helped destroy?
One of the main criticisms people have about the justice systems in Canada and America is that because having a criminal record is so detrimental, there isn't really a good system in place for reintegrating criminals into productive members of society, which is the "goal" of the justice system. This isn't some anime where Savior is gonna go live on a farm for the rest of his life regretting his sins. The matchfixing scandal and Savior coaching now are two very different things. The matchfixing scandal is undeniably bad. Savior trying to earn an honest living after his crimes is not. Does Savior have to commit crimes for the rest of his life to get by because people still hold a grudge against him? Don't let him compete: ok. Criticise him for living his life? This is the same problem scholars argue about in Law studies. It's better to reintegrate people into society than to punish them forever.
I think all of your questions are ludicrous. If you can't forgive him, that's your personal decision, but if other people can, let them. I love Brood War a lot, but I'm not going to be pig headed looking for scapegoats.
I literally choked at this point.
Which game are we talking about here?
Do you remember who was the most arrogant match fixer who claimed to be progamer even during the match fixing trials? Do you remember who stated in his stream that he will stop playing BW in order to start studying and go study abroad?
I don't know, maybe I still have grudge against him because OSL and PL sponsorship haven't been working out, the day that I watched KT vs CJ live was the FINAL DAY of proleague casting at MBC Game (with full attendance), and teams are disbanding and everyone involved in the scene is getting less money day by day. And what does he do? Start trying to make more money off from BW.
Maybe if it was someone else (cough luxury) who haven't been arrogant and did not state that he was going to stop streaming due to education, then I would have less criticisms.
On March 30 2012 01:13 supernovamaniac wrote: At this point in time, translating articles like these only bring out the "ugly" of the community. It's better if articles about savior aren't translated at all (not saying that you shouldn't translate articles at all).
I still find it funny that people are talking about "oh, he made one wrong choice in life" "psh that wasn't a big deal, it's in the past" etc. Then let me ask you a question: Did you truly enjoy MyStarleague that they did instead of regular OSL season last year? Did you enjoy the long off-season of Proleague with speculations that it might not happen again (same goes for OSL)? Did you truly enjoy the news of MBC Game being shut down? If you said No to one of these questions, then I don't know what the fuck's wrong with you. Maybe you just didn't know how huge the impact of match fixing was, or you're just trying to runaway from the truth.
MyStarleague happened because OSL couldn't get any sponsors after Bacchus. Weird, huh? Last time OSL couldn't find sponsors was Daum Starleague and they just went ahead with the league without any sponsors. JinAir OSL sponsorship was announced sometime into the league, not before the group selection. And this upcoming OSL is in the same situation: still no sponsorship. When did the most prestigious league in BroodWar have hard time getting sponsorship in OSL, especially after the amazing finals like the reverse sweep in Korean Air season 1 and legend of the fall in Jin Air?
I don't even need to discuss MBCGame because I posted few pictures from MBCGame that directly proves that some "incidents" had an effect on closure of the station.
I'm just going to leave questions here. It is okay if you follow someone who's good at playing this game. But if you're going to ignore the facts, you might as well ignore the Korean BroodWar scene along with it.
EDIT: One last question: If this person did have huge impact on BW scene, is it still justifiable for him to make money off from something that he helped destroy?
SC2 Fans: "Omg a good BW player who isn't playing BW? We should forgive him so he can play SC2! Causing the downfall of the scene? Who cares, you guys just can't get over it."
Thats entirely different problem completely not connected to the issue of this topic.
On March 30 2012 01:05 Ilikestarcraft wrote: I don't think his intention to make money is wrong because that is one of the reasons most people coach in the first place. Savior isn't really taking advantage of anyone. Its people's money and they can do what they want with it. If people are willing to offer money and are interested in being coached then why not. I personally think this is a better way than living off donations from his fans since hes actually being paid in exchange for something. Don't think anyone really has a legit reason to hate on what hes doing.
Yeah, I agree with this. Savior has been playing BW since his teens right? Outside of pro-gaming what is he actually qualified to do, does he have any type of education at all? The guy has got to be able to support himself somehow, and what he is offering is something of relatively high value. I don't think this situation hurts anyone or does any more damage to BW/esports. So honestly, I say let the guy be.
I think the reason that is getting everyone all so work up is because Savior isn't just another no name player . Lots of time and money has been spent on promoting this guy to create the fan base for starcraft broodwar and now since he created the loophole for outside third party meddle in to what is suppose to be a "clean" sport . Not only he tainted the scene and destroyed every potential good players that were playing in the scene . He may also inadvertently killed the scene in a way because Savior/Hwasin/Upmagic do pull a lot of crowds and fans .
Because of that people still are hating him and it's understandable although can we totally blame savior for this ? I don't know if what he did was right or wrong if you were in his position . I think it's the first time kespa ever had to dealt with this kind of situation. If you ask me hearing one side of the story isn't enough and I recall savior taking to the reporter and confessing about the whole story of the match fixing and yet that article didn't get turn up and since than he kept his silence .
Maybe I will reach the same conclusion if I was a commentator like nal_ra and kingdom and call him a betrayer and will hate him forever for what he has done.
On March 30 2012 01:05 Ilikestarcraft wrote: I don't think his intention to make money is wrong because that is one of the reasons most people coach in the first place. Savior isn't really taking advantage of anyone. Its people's money and they can do what they want with it. If people are willing to offer money and are interested in being coached then why not. I personally think this is a better way than living off donations from his fans since hes actually being paid in exchange for something. Don't think anyone really has a legit reason to hate on what hes doing.
Yeah, I agree with this. Savior has been playing BW since his teens right? Outside of pro-gaming what is he actually qualified to do, does he have any type of education at all? The guy has got to be able to support himself somehow, and what he is offering is something of relatively high value. I don't think this situation hurts anyone or does any more damage to BW/esports. So honestly, I say let the guy be.
It doesen't. And I don't really care what Savior does now. But what gives him the right to use BW to make money. The excuse "this is all I know what to do" is disgusting. What about guys like go.go that can barely take care of themselves (Oldboy) How is that fair to them, the people he dragged into this mess. They have 0 skills as well. He's just lucky he had such a successful career or this wouldn't even work.
He should just do his military service, people will forget about him, and he should just go to school and make a proper future for himself. Clinging on to BW after what he's done just b/c "its all I know" is crazy. Nothing wrong with streaming, but Im getting the impression he's actually using his BW fame and career to sustain himself completely.
Whatever, it's like Pete Rose giving baseball lessons. I think he's despicable and should leave the entirety of Broodwar alone like the disgrace he is, but I can't knowingly support forcing him to stop anything but direct involvement with the BW pro scene.
On March 29 2012 23:06 GTR wrote: 30k won is quite a lot (compared to the other afreeca bjs) players like eagle/anytime do it for 10-15k won p/hr iirc. that being said, you are learning from probably the greatest strategic zerg ever to play bw.
welp at least it's cheaper than idra.
It's 30k for 1.5 hrs, so just 20k/hr.
I'm really surprised that he got a sponsor. Why would he be sponsored after he was banned from progaming? Even if what he had done wasn't seen as hugely wrong, he won't be able to play in tournaments.
On March 30 2012 01:05 Ilikestarcraft wrote: I don't think his intention to make money is wrong because that is one of the reasons most people coach in the first place. Savior isn't really taking advantage of anyone. Its people's money and they can do what they want with it. If people are willing to offer money and are interested in being coached then why not. I personally think this is a better way than living off donations from his fans since hes actually being paid in exchange for something. Don't think anyone really has a legit reason to hate on what hes doing.
Yeah, I agree with this. Savior has been playing BW since his teens right? Outside of pro-gaming what is he actually qualified to do, does he have any type of education at all? The guy has got to be able to support himself somehow, and what he is offering is something of relatively high value. I don't think this situation hurts anyone or does any more damage to BW/esports. So honestly, I say let the guy be.
It doesen't. And I don't really care what Savior does now. But what gives him the right to use BW to make money. The excuse "this is all I know what to do" is disgusting. What about guys like go.go that can barely take care of themselves (Oldboy) How is that fair to them, the people he dragged into this mess. They have 0 skills as well. He's just lucky he had such a successful career or this wouldn't even work.
He should just do his military service, people will forget about him, and he should just go to school and make a proper future for himself. Clinging on to BW after what he's done just b/c "its all I know" is crazy. Nothing wrong with streaming, but Im getting the impression he's actually using his BW fame and career to sustain himself completely.
To be quite honest, if he comes back from the military and becomes a successful businessmen, it will be the better future for everyone: For savior himself for obvious reasons, and for eSports because it shows to the society that even the "spoiled kids" can become successful in life.
On March 30 2012 01:31 sheaRZerg wrote: Cant we just call him Savior again? Its not like anyone doesn't know by now.
No way, MatchFixingDevilSpawnSaviorTheTerrible has such a nice ring to it. And there's no thread bias whatsoever if you call him that in your OP either.
MFDSSTT pretty much ruined BW for a lot of people. This includes honest pro-gamers, as now the suggestion or thought of match-fixing exists and may permeate throughout the leagues.
But I don't think forbidding him from ever teaching a student how to play Brood War is a punishment that fits the crime. He already paid for his crimes, and continues to by not being allowed to play as a pro anymore. But he's still an amazing player, and anyone would be lucky to learn from him. Just because he was a shitty person doesn't mean he's talentless at the game.
Savior the player = amazing Savior the person = MFDSSTT
There's a difference, and it's not like you'll be learning how to fix matches in his tutoring sessions >.>
On March 29 2012 23:25 white_horse wrote: Pay to join his fanclub, pay to follow him, pay to get lessons from him: basically only the nutty and hardcore fans who don't really care about anything else remain. you can't really get any more pathetic than that
On March 30 2012 01:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: There's a difference, and it's not like you'll be learning how to fix matches in his tutoring sessions >.>
Well, it's not exactly hard to do that .
If you were trying to learn how to match fix AND get away with it, you're still going to the wrong person.
On March 29 2012 23:25 white_horse wrote: Pay to join his fanclub, pay to follow him, pay to get lessons from him: basically only the nutty and hardcore fans who don't really care about anything else remain. you can't really get any more pathetic than that
This. Pathetic.
He just needs to give up public starcraft already. All this shit he does just shows how he has no remorse for what he did. Like ya ok, you were a progamer your whole life so you don't really have other life skills but this isn't how you should make a living. Play on a smurf privately if you still enjoy the game but leave starcraft alone, you've done enough.
Happens in every savior thread, but still amazes me how ignorant some people are and therefore so forgiving. Some even going so far as to being offended or confused that people haven't forgiven him yet.
On March 30 2012 01:05 Ilikestarcraft wrote: I don't think his intention to make money is wrong because that is one of the reasons most people coach in the first place. Savior isn't really taking advantage of anyone. Its people's money and they can do what they want with it. If people are willing to offer money and are interested in being coached then why not. I personally think this is a better way than living off donations from his fans since hes actually being paid in exchange for something. Don't think anyone really has a legit reason to hate on what hes doing.
Yeah, I agree with this. Savior has been playing BW since his teens right? Outside of pro-gaming what is he actually qualified to do, does he have any type of education at all? The guy has got to be able to support himself somehow, and what he is offering is something of relatively high value. I don't think this situation hurts anyone or does any more damage to BW/esports. So honestly, I say let the guy be.
It doesen't. And I don't really care what Savior does now. But what gives him the right to use BW to make money. The excuse "this is all I know what to do" is disgusting. What about guys like go.go that can barely take care of themselves (Oldboy) How is that fair to them, the people he dragged into this mess. They have 0 skills as well. He's just lucky he had such a successful career or this wouldn't even work.
He should just do his military service, people will forget about him, and he should just go to school and make a proper future for himself. Clinging on to BW after what he's done just b/c "its all I know" is crazy. Nothing wrong with streaming, but Im getting the impression he's actually using his BW fame and career to sustain himself completely.
To be quite honest, if he comes back from the military and becomes a successful businessmen, it will be the better future for everyone: For savior himself for obvious reasons, and for eSports because it shows to the society that even the "spoiled kids" can become successful in life.
This.
He doesn't have mandatory military service because of a knee condition. In any other avenue of life, I'll be rooting for him to succeed as I realize he did give his most formative years to the game I love and his predicament (young gamers who have no life skills) is mirrored by many other current/former progamers.
People need to stop treating him like a victim. As a former bonjwa he could've been set up for life in the industry similar to how Yellow and Boxer got opportunities but he fucked it up by being greedy.
I don't know why everyone's saying "if I spoke korean I'd take lessons" find someone to give you a couple of korean sentences, ante up and take a shot at a legit Bonjwa. Forget lessons, just have a go head on. Surely the chance of that, must excite some of you hard core brood war players even a little?
On March 30 2012 01:47 Gingerninja wrote: I don't know why everyone's saying "if I spoke korean I'd take lessons" find someone to give you a couple of korean sentences, ante up and take a shot at a legit Bonjwa. Forget lessons, just have a go head on. Surely the chance of that, must excite some of you hard core brood war players even a little?
Even if a foreigner want's to take lessons from him there will be trouble communicating between student and coach because Savior I believe will not have a good command at the English language ?
On March 30 2012 01:05 Ilikestarcraft wrote: I don't think his intention to make money is wrong because that is one of the reasons most people coach in the first place. Savior isn't really taking advantage of anyone. Its people's money and they can do what they want with it. If people are willing to offer money and are interested in being coached then why not. I personally think this is a better way than living off donations from his fans since hes actually being paid in exchange for something. Don't think anyone really has a legit reason to hate on what hes doing.
Yeah, I agree with this. Savior has been playing BW since his teens right? Outside of pro-gaming what is he actually qualified to do, does he have any type of education at all? The guy has got to be able to support himself somehow, and what he is offering is something of relatively high value. I don't think this situation hurts anyone or does any more damage to BW/esports. So honestly, I say let the guy be.
It doesen't. And I don't really care what Savior does now. But what gives him the right to use BW to make money. The excuse "this is all I know what to do" is disgusting. What about guys like go.go that can barely take care of themselves (Oldboy) How is that fair to them, the people he dragged into this mess. They have 0 skills as well. He's just lucky he had such a successful career or this wouldn't even work.
He should just do his military service, people will forget about him, and he should just go to school and make a proper future for himself. Clinging on to BW after what he's done just b/c "its all I know" is crazy. Nothing wrong with streaming, but Im getting the impression he's actually using his BW fame and career to sustain himself completely.
To be quite honest, if he comes back from the military and becomes a successful businessmen, it will be the better future for everyone: For savior himself for obvious reasons, and for eSports because it shows to the society that even the "spoiled kids" can become successful in life.
This.
He doesn't have mandatory military service because of a knee condition. In any other avenue of life, I'll be rooting for him to succeed as I realize he did give his most formative years to the game I love and his predicament (young gamers who have no life skills) is mirrored by many other current/former progamers.
People need to stop treating him like a victim. As a former bonjwa he could've been set up for life in the industry similar to how Yellow and Boxer got opportunities but he fucked it up by being greedy.
I think people are misunderstanding my views sometimes.
I don't want people like Savior to fail in life. I really want them to succeed: just not in something BW related. And that's why I always criticize his actions related to BW on this very forum: a starcraft community website.
On March 30 2012 01:47 Abort Retry Fail wrote: This is sad. I guess he hasn`t gotten over the fact that he should stay far away from BW already. He is a great player really , but this is just...
$25 per 1.5 hour? To contextualize, how much does incontrol ask for his coaching?
I think mid-tier SC2 progamers generally charge 30-80 dollars per hour, although Savior charging $25 for a 1.5 hour lesson is like MVP charging $5/ hour for a lesson.
I always find it hilarious how forgiving people on TL can be towards Savior. As supernovamaniac pointed out in his excellent post, he did irreparable damage to the BW scene. That's not something you come back from, try to make money from the same scene, and expect to have people look favorably on or support you. That post should be the beginning and end of any Savior discussion.
It's also foolish to say things like "BW is all he knows, even though he did horrible horrible things he should still be allowed to make money from the only thing he can do." Nope. While technically yes, there is nothing illegal about wanting to earn money from BW lessons, the public outrage from such a decision should shame him away from ever trying.
Savior should have known that when he decided to become a progamer, he was forgoing traditional means of education and trade learning. The same thing happens with athletes in any professional sport who start young and flame out early. While it may sound harsh, you really can't feel any pity for them if they refuse to find any sort of backup plan once the writing is on the wall that their time is done. Just because they didn't pursue schooling at the traditional time that others do doesn't mean the option is forever closed to them once plan a fails.
I don't know, I just get pretty disgusted when I see people supporting Savior looking to profit from any kind of BW venture.
On March 30 2012 01:47 Gingerninja wrote: I don't know why everyone's saying "if I spoke korean I'd take lessons" find someone to give you a couple of korean sentences, ante up and take a shot at a legit Bonjwa. Forget lessons, just have a go head on. Surely the chance of that, must excite some of you hard core brood war players even a little?
Even if a foreigner want's to take lessons from him there will be trouble communicating between student and coach because Savior I believe will not have a good command at the English language ?
I didn't mean lessons, pay for the lessons but challenge him to a game instead. It's money in his pocket either way. See if you have what it takes to win against the former best player in the world. He might reject of course, but it wouldn't hurt to try asking.
The thing about it being "ok" for Savior to keep living off of BW beacuse he's been progaming all his life so he doesn't know anything else is total bollocks. He betrayed the scene, the fans and everybody, if he doesn't know what else to do, here's a suggestion: Fucking study so you can move on with your life ! (and let us angry people move on too, that would be nice kthnxbye )
On March 29 2012 23:16 OpticalShot wrote: Very, very disappointed.
Savior was one of the core group involved in the scandal that triggered a huge crumble of the scene. Although arguable to some degree, his actions resulted in a dozen or so progamers and B-teamers losing their job and their career dreams. Moreover, it was openly admitted in the Adieu MBCGame program that Savior played an integral role in the eventual closing of MBCGame. On one hand, Savior is one hell of a cunning guy - he is still finding ways to milk the money out of the very business he destroyed himself. On the other hand, I can't imagine how much twisted evil thoughts reside in his mind...
I'll take the one positive thing from this news and hopefully remember that one only - there are still fans excited enough about the legendary game of SCBW that they'd pay good money for lessons from a publicly denounced figure.
You can be angry about what Savior did, but I think it's unfair to be angry at what Savior for what other players did. Everyone is responsible for themselves. A dozen or so other progamers got themselves involved, not Savior. If you're gonna blame Savior for getting them involved, let's go all the way up the ladder to the bad people Savior met that got him involved, k? Does that sounds stupid and make it seem like Savior wasn't responsible? That's why people have to be responsible for themselves.
He was in jail for a year, probation for 2. That doesn't look good on your resume. Being self-employed like this is probably one of the few things he can really do to sustain himself. Does he repent in other ways? I don't know. We have very little of the full story, but I maintain that he made stupid mistakes and was too worried about being cool with bad groups of people.
It's clear that Savior's actions contributed to the scandal, which in term contributed to troubled times for the scene, but neither were by themselves significant. As far as "twisted evil thoughts" ... Not much more twisted than the celebrities in every entertainment business who get rich fast, get involved with bad people, and ruin their careers. The only difference is that those industries see it as normal.
sentenced to 1 year imprisonment, 2 years probation on the 22nd of October 2010. His probation ends on the 22nd of June this year.
So what. He had a choice between a year of imprisonment or 2 years probation? Whether you think that's enough or not, he's still got a criminal record and lost his job.
No, what that means is that if he doesn't commit any crimes for 2 years, he doesn't serve any prison time at all.
Savior and Yarnc have together made almost 50 millon Won from Afreeca broadcasting alone, from a scene that he played a part in helping to destroy and in the process caused so many people to lose their jobs. And he broadcasts on Afreeca because it's an easy way for him to make good money. Don't make excuses for him. You talk about people being responsible for themselves. How about Savior taking the high road and not making money off the BW scene. Go back to school, which was what he claimed he was going to do last year.
On March 29 2012 23:16 OpticalShot wrote: Very, very disappointed.
Savior was one of the core group involved in the scandal that triggered a huge crumble of the scene. Although arguable to some degree, his actions resulted in a dozen or so progamers and B-teamers losing their job and their career dreams. Moreover, it was openly admitted in the Adieu MBCGame program that Savior played an integral role in the eventual closing of MBCGame. On one hand, Savior is one hell of a cunning guy - he is still finding ways to milk the money out of the very business he destroyed himself. On the other hand, I can't imagine how much twisted evil thoughts reside in his mind...
I'll take the one positive thing from this news and hopefully remember that one only - there are still fans excited enough about the legendary game of SCBW that they'd pay good money for lessons from a publicly denounced figure.
You can be angry about what Savior did, but I think it's unfair to be angry at what Savior for what other players did. Everyone is responsible for themselves. A dozen or so other progamers got themselves involved, not Savior. If you're gonna blame Savior for getting them involved, let's go all the way up the ladder to the bad people Savior met that got him involved, k? Does that sounds stupid and make it seem like Savior wasn't responsible? That's why people have to be responsible for themselves.
He was in jail for a year, probation for 2. That doesn't look good on your resume. Being self-employed like this is probably one of the few things he can really do to sustain himself. Does he repent in other ways? I don't know. We have very little of the full story, but I maintain that he made stupid mistakes and was too worried about being cool with bad groups of people.
It's clear that Savior's actions contributed to the scandal, which in term contributed to troubled times for the scene, but neither were by themselves significant. As far as "twisted evil thoughts" ... Not much more twisted than the celebrities in every entertainment business who get rich fast, get involved with bad people, and ruin their careers. The only difference is that those industries see it as normal.
Savior never went to jail.
sentenced to 1 year imprisonment, 2 years probation on the 22nd of October 2010. His probation ends on the 22nd of June this year.
So what. He had a choice between a year of imprisonment or 2 years probation? Whether you think that's enough or not, he's still got a criminal record and lost his job.
No, what that means is that if he doesn't commit any crimes for 2 years, he doesn't serve any prison time at all.
Savior and Yarnc have together made around 50 millon Won from Afreeca broadcasting alone, from a scene that he played a part in helping to destroy and in the process caused so many people to lose their jobs. And he broadcasts on Afreeca because it's an easy way for him to make good money. Don't make excuses for him. You talk about people being responsible for themselves. How about Savior taking the high road and not making money off the BW scene. Go back to school, which was what he claimed he was going to do last year.
I know we all want to crucify him on sticks and such but what can we do except calling him matchfixer and destroyer ? He sees it as a way to exploit his previous bw fame and he is gaining money from it of course he is going to continue doing what he is "good" at . No matter how much we paint the image of destroyer at savior but if fans are stilling willing to pay their money for his streams and coaching than it's the user fault .
Fans maybe believe their money and time is probably is wiser spending on savior than on other things.
if anyone foreigner is going to do it, I will happily translate for them :3 yeah he is a match fixer but he is also a bonjwa. if you dont like him, just dont pay. or pay and beat him in a bo9 and then bm
That is incredibly low on average...... you have Savior quite possibly the greatest Zerg of ALL TIME, at least the greatest ZvT player of all time giving lessons for $25, contrast that with IdrA charging $300 p/h. This is a steal.
On March 29 2012 23:16 OpticalShot wrote: Very, very disappointed.
Savior was one of the core group involved in the scandal that triggered a huge crumble of the scene. Although arguable to some degree, his actions resulted in a dozen or so progamers and B-teamers losing their job and their career dreams. Moreover, it was openly admitted in the Adieu MBCGame program that Savior played an integral role in the eventual closing of MBCGame. On one hand, Savior is one hell of a cunning guy - he is still finding ways to milk the money out of the very business he destroyed himself. On the other hand, I can't imagine how much twisted evil thoughts reside in his mind...
I'll take the one positive thing from this news and hopefully remember that one only - there are still fans excited enough about the legendary game of SCBW that they'd pay good money for lessons from a publicly denounced figure.
You can be angry about what Savior did, but I think it's unfair to be angry at what Savior for what other players did. Everyone is responsible for themselves. A dozen or so other progamers got themselves involved, not Savior. If you're gonna blame Savior for getting them involved, let's go all the way up the ladder to the bad people Savior met that got him involved, k? Does that sounds stupid and make it seem like Savior wasn't responsible? That's why people have to be responsible for themselves.
He was in jail for a year, probation for 2. That doesn't look good on your resume. Being self-employed like this is probably one of the few things he can really do to sustain himself. Does he repent in other ways? I don't know. We have very little of the full story, but I maintain that he made stupid mistakes and was too worried about being cool with bad groups of people.
It's clear that Savior's actions contributed to the scandal, which in term contributed to troubled times for the scene, but neither were by themselves significant. As far as "twisted evil thoughts" ... Not much more twisted than the celebrities in every entertainment business who get rich fast, get involved with bad people, and ruin their careers. The only difference is that those industries see it as normal.
Savior never went to jail.
sentenced to 1 year imprisonment, 2 years probation on the 22nd of October 2010. His probation ends on the 22nd of June this year.
So what. He had a choice between a year of imprisonment or 2 years probation? Whether you think that's enough or not, he's still got a criminal record and lost his job.
No, what that means is that if he doesn't commit any crimes for 2 years, he doesn't serve any prison time at all.
Savior and Yarnc have together made around 50 millon Won from Afreeca broadcasting alone, from a scene that he played a part in helping to destroy and in the process caused so many people to lose their jobs. And he broadcasts on Afreeca because it's an easy way for him to make good money. Don't make excuses for him. You talk about people being responsible for themselves. How about Savior taking the high road and not making money off the BW scene. Go back to school, which was what he claimed he was going to do last year.
I know we all want to crucify him on sticks and such but what can we do except calling him matchfixer and destroyer ? He sees it as a way to exploit his previous bw fame and he is gaining money from it of course he is going to continue doing what he is "good" at . No matter how much we paint the image of destroyer at savior but if fans are stilling willing to pay their money for his streams and coaching than it's the user fault .
Fans maybe believe their money and time is probably is wiser spending on savior than on other things.
Nah, I can't be bothered with calling Savior names or what not. But I'm explaining why he shouldn't be viewed as some kind of victim nor are criticisms of him unjustified.
As a SC2 player that got interested in the BW scene, I dunno how to feel about savior. I feel like I should hate him, but at the same time I shouldn't be that negative towards him. On the one hand, where would BW be right now if the match fixing scandal never happened? But on the other hand, it did, but how much savior is really to blame makes me confused on what I should be feeling.
On March 30 2012 02:21 Slardar wrote: That is incredibly low on average...... you have Savior quite possibly the greatest Zerg of ALL TIME, at least the greatest ZvT player of all time giving lessons for $25, contrast that with IdrA charging $300 p/h. This is a steal.
IdrA charges $300 d/h because he doesn't like coaching, he said if he is gonna do it you might as well make it worth his time lol
25$ seems like a gift, even all those idras incontrols and destinys charge way more....so to get this price from Savior himself seems like a gift from heaven
Well this is kinda sad. Savior must be a smart enough guy to become bonjwa at one point. But his reputation is always there to haunt him and it must be really hard for him to do anything. I don't see this as "exploiting his past fame for $" but him just trying to survive and make a living.
Well it's a sick good deal but ... I don't know how i feel about this. It's just so unfair i mean, if the match fixing scandal had only affected him and the others players responsible for this i would be fine with it but, like, he really ruined it for every BW progamers. I mean, he already has quite a lot of money at this point, but what about all the less sucessful players who won't be able to because of MBCGame shutting down, the lack of sponsors for osl etc etc ... ? The idea that he can still squeeze so much out of something he destroyed while others who didn't do anything have less opportunities is just ... disgusting i guess.
Not that i wish him to fail in life tho, but, can't he just stay away from the game ?
I cant believe he is not gotting "many sign ups"..?
That is a ridicilously low price from celebrity and i would imagine his schedhule being all day long teaching for couple months but no. It has to be a cultural thing.
On March 30 2012 02:37 Metal[x] wrote: just imagine sziky getting lessons from him. the best foreigner zerg with lessons from someone who revolutionized zerg? crazy!
Nah I prefer him getting coach by Jaedong who is the current remaining tyrant in the bw league with "conscience" and I mean in terms of not getting involve with the match fixing that is hence Jaedong or Brain Zerg(Calm) will definitely help out sziky in terms of skill and strategy .
On March 30 2012 02:39 Arir wrote: I cant believe he is not gotting "many sign ups"..?
That is a ridicilously low price from celebrity and i would imagine his schedhule being all day long teaching for couple months but no. It has to be a cultural thing.
the negative things he's known for kinda overshadows the good thingshe's know for by now
On March 30 2012 02:32 Marti wrote: Well it's a sick good deal but ... I don't know how i feel about this. It's just so unfair i mean, if the match fixing scandal had only affected him and the others players responsible for this i would be fine with it but, like, he really ruined it for every BW progamers. I mean, he already has quite a lot of money at this point, but what about all the less sucessful players who won't be able to because of MBCGame shutting down, the lack of sponsors for osl etc etc ... ? The idea that he can still squeeze so much out of something he destroyed while others who didn't do anything have less opportunities is just ... disgusting i guess.
Not that i wish him to fail in life tho, but, can't he just stay away from the game ?
As much of a Savior fan as I am... I agree; he's just done too much damage to the scene to deserve to be making money off of it. If anything he should be giving free lessons to help repair some of the damage he's done. Surprised he's only charging that much though, that's quite cheap compared to lessons in CS, SC2, etc.
However, I can kind of understand it from Savior's POV; it's probably difficult for him to get another job, as is common with retired pro-gamers (and Savior's history) and thus it's a way to get by.
LOL I wonder if he can teach people how to pull some match-fixing... Seriously, if I met this guy on the streets I'd chuck an egg on him. And most Koreans would probably feel the same way.
This guy almost ruined esport literally along with other guys that at least had enough shame to not show their faces anymore in the BW community, supporting him through BW again is just wrong.
I know there is a lot of hatred for Savior, (SuperNova etc) which is justified but so far there doesn't seem to be any malicious intent.
People were flaming him, so he put "Subscribers Only" Mode on his fanpage. Honestly... feels like the Cash Rate is some sort of favor to the community less than him trying to make money. If he truly wanted to make money he could switch to SC2 and coach for $50 p/h in like a months worth.
Still though, nobody is forced to give him money. I agree it still feels rotten he's trying to make ANY cash off of the community and scene he helped cripple.
On March 30 2012 02:58 Slardar wrote: I know there is a lot of hatred for Savior, (SuperNova etc) which is justified but so far there doesn't seem to be any malicious intent.
People were flaming him, so he put "Subscribers Only" Mode on his fanpage. Honestly... feels like the Cash Rate is some sort of favor to the community less than him trying to make money. If he truly wanted to make money he could switch to SC2 and coach for $50 p/h in like a months worth.
Still though, nobody is forced to give him money. I agree it still feels rotten he's trying to make ANY cash off of the community and scene he helped cripple.
I doubt he has/will ever have the credible skill levels to teach SC2 anyways.
What appalls me the most is that there are maggots who would actually partake in this bullshit.
On March 30 2012 02:58 Slardar wrote: Honestly... feels like the Cash Rate is some sort of favor to the community less than him trying to make money.
On March 29 2012 23:06 GTR wrote: 30k won is quite a lot (compared to the other afreeca bjs) players like eagle/anytime do it for 10-15k won p/hr iirc.
On March 30 2012 00:56 Arceus wrote: I find it funny that ppl say $25 for 1.5 hours is dirt cheap but are reluctant to pay the same bucks for one season of GSL/MLG/etc
Because to them 1.5 hours with a Bonjwa means more than a season of GSL/MLG/etc, obviously? o.O
10 minutes w Bisu or Tossgirl easily stomp a lifetime of GLS/MLG/etc stuff for me.
On March 30 2012 00:35 brachester wrote: Hmm, k, I get that what Savior did was wrong and all but what's the point of keep being angry about it? I mean you should know when to forgive people right? Like people have already mentioned, 2 years probation doesn't look good on your resume so maybe this is his last choice. Also people should stop looking things with black and white, "twisted evil thoughts"? lol. Though I can't agree with the paying fees to be in his fanclub, that's pretty low.
I have no idea why people think it's so easy to forgive him, when the match fixing scandal ruined years of effort trying to build a scene from the ground up.
let him live...he's suffered enough and has undergone his punishment. why hold a grudge for so long? its pretty awesome that he's still around after all this time
On March 29 2012 23:06 GTR wrote: 30k won is quite a lot (compared to the other afreeca bjs) players like eagle/anytime do it for 10-15k won p/hr iirc.
This : i just realized 25 bucks doesn't seem like much to a foreigner but i don't know how much that is for a korean. I said it was a good deal but apparently, not that good. And also this :
On March 29 2012 23:25 white_horse wrote: Pay to join his fanclub, pay to follow him, pay to get lessons from him: basically only the nutty and hardcore fans who don't really care about anything else remain. you can't really get any more pathetic than that
All of a sudden my image of him worsened by quite a lot. Seriously how can anyone forgive him when he's clearly just milking it dry ?? He really is a disgusting character...
On March 30 2012 01:35 TwoToneTerran wrote: Whatever, it's like Pete Rose giving baseball lessons. I think he's despicable and should leave the entirety of Broodwar alone like the disgrace he is, but I can't knowingly support forcing him to stop anything but direct involvement with the BW pro scene.
pete rose did not ever bet against his team pete rose bet his team would win
On March 30 2012 00:56 Arceus wrote: I find it funny that ppl say $25 for 1.5 hours is dirt cheap but are reluctant to pay the same bucks for one season of GSL/MLG/etc
Because to them 1.5 hours with a Bonjwa means more than a season of GSL/MLG/etc, obviously? o.O
10 minutes with Tossgirl easily stomp a lifetime of GLS/MLG/etc stuff for me.
If only I can get a tshirt or keyboard sign by toss girl and I will be the happiest fanboy in the world .
On March 29 2012 23:06 GTR wrote: 30k won is quite a lot (compared to the other afreeca bjs) players like eagle/anytime do it for 10-15k won p/hr iirc. that being said, you are learning from probably the greatest strategic zerg ever to play bw.
Ma Jae Yoon standing on a street corner, with a glint of sorrow in his eyes and an aura of sadness enveloping him like a blanket of despair. He holds a cardboard sign, with the wretched epithet: "I am a Progamer", followed by, "Will teach StarCraft: Broodwar lessons for food." The grey sky and the cold wind blowing against his ragged and torn CJ Entus jacket seems to only exemplify his status a forgotten relic of the past; now doomed to a fate of wandering the dark underbelly of the streets of Seoul in search of scraps of discarded bulgogi in the slime-covered dumpsters that litter the back-alleys.
On March 29 2012 23:06 GTR wrote: 30k won is quite a lot (compared to the other afreeca bjs) players like eagle/anytime do it for 10-15k won p/hr iirc.
Hmm
I was implying from a foreigner perspective, $25 an hour is cheap. Of course things are a bit different in SK, which is why I countered with him making any money is morally reprehensible and wrong. Replying with a single word doesn't contribute anything, unless your goal was to attack my reading ability. Bravo.
Wow. I was just thinking that he would probably start streaming again in some way or another. I figured something like this. But even if he is going to give lessons...why so cheap?
Y? Even so this boggles my mind. Boggly boggly boggly boo. Boggle.
On March 30 2012 00:19 HwangjaeTerran wrote: I think this is good. How is it bad? Progamers usually don't have high degrees and they must get by somehow. The match fixers have it especially hard. 75$ for 4,5hours of Savior teaching you, which you can divide with your friend, that's just sick good deal.
The court punished the match fixers well enough, there's no need for me to judge them further.
In case you dont know, Korea has a great economy at the moment. Unemployment is ~3%. Its easy for a grown healthy guy like Savior to get a job. There is no need to further poison the scene with his presence, sorry to say.
On March 29 2012 23:06 GTR wrote: 30k won is quite a lot (compared to the other afreeca bjs) players like eagle/anytime do it for 10-15k won p/hr iirc. that being said, you are learning from probably the greatest strategic zerg ever to play bw.
welp at least it's cheaper than idra.
I actually never understood how people could pay the absolutely ludicrous amount Idra or InControl are asking. I think 25 dollars is a fairly normal amount for an hour with a very good player. I wouldn't pay more if i was crazy enough about the game to pay for a teacher...
On March 30 2012 02:58 Slardar wrote: Honestly... feels like the Cash Rate is some sort of favor to the community less than him trying to make money.
On March 29 2012 23:06 GTR wrote: 30k won is quite a lot (compared to the other afreeca bjs) players like eagle/anytime do it for 10-15k won p/hr iirc.
Hmm
I was implying from a foreigner perspective, $25 an hour is cheap. Of course things are a bit different in SK, which is why I countered with him making any money is morally reprehensible and wrong. Replying with a single word doesn't contribute anything, unless your goal was to attack my reading ability. Bravo.
Well, it seems you missed that point unless your intent was to say that he's somehow doing a favor to the community by charging them more than other people.
On March 29 2012 23:01 storywriter wrote: The lessons will be streamed on the internet according to the customer's request and will have Savior himself playing and commentating.
The post states that 'Users who record the lessons and shares them will be added to the blacklist' to prevent users who try to obtain free lessons.
I can't really fit these two lines together in my head, what am I missing? Lessons are streamed but can't be shared?
On March 29 2012 23:06 GTR wrote: 30k won is quite a lot (compared to the other afreeca bjs) players like eagle/anytime do it for 10-15k won p/hr iirc. that being said, you are learning from probably the greatest strategic zerg ever to play bw.
welp at least it's cheaper than idra.
I actually never understood how people could pay the absolutely ludicrous amount Idra or InControl are asking. I think 25 dollars is a fairly normal amount for an hour with a very good player. I wouldn't pay more if i was crazy enough about the game to pay for a teacher...
You'd be surprised. As an assistant tennis pro at the country club I teach at (during summers), I easily make $50+ hour giving private lessons, and I don't plan on going on tour at all. The head pros I've worked with make over $100/ hour, although they've had experience in the professional scene and whatnot. Granted, the tennis community is a bit richer than the gaming community, but it's all about finding how much money people are willing to spend and showing off how good of a professional and teacher you are, and marketing properly.
On March 30 2012 00:35 brachester wrote: Hmm, k, I get that what Savior did was wrong and all but what's the point of keep being angry about it? I mean you should know when to forgive people right? Like people have already mentioned, 2 years probation doesn't look good on your resume so maybe this is his last choice. Also people should stop looking things with black and white, "twisted evil thoughts"? lol. Though I can't agree with the paying fees to be in his fanclub, that's pretty low.
I have no idea why people think it's so easy to forgive him, when the match fixing scandal ruined years of effort trying to build a scene from the ground up.
damn that video brought me to tears
Yeah, every time I watch Um Jaekyung eat copious amounts of meat, I cry as well.
On March 30 2012 00:19 HwangjaeTerran wrote: I think this is good. How is it bad? Progamers usually don't have high degrees and they must get by somehow. The match fixers have it especially hard. 75$ for 4,5hours of Savior teaching you, which you can divide with your friend, that's just sick good deal.
The court punished the match fixers well enough, there's no need for me to judge them further.
In case you dont know, Korea has a great economy at the moment. Unemployment is ~3%. Its easy for a grown healthy guy like Savior to get a job. There is no need to further poison the scene with his presence, sorry to say.
I dont know ppl think that savior shouldnt play broodwar, he is banned for official tournaments. Remember He can do whatever he wants with his skillz like streaming or giving classes. He is not doing anything illegal and is not hurting anyone And NOO !!! everytime you hear news about him and you remind that he did horrible things is not actually a bad thing
On March 29 2012 23:16 OpticalShot wrote: Savior was one of the core group involved in the scandal that triggered a huge crumble of the scene. Although arguable to some degree, his actions resulted in a dozen or so progamers and B-teamers losing their job and their career dreams. Moreover, it was openly admitted in the Adieu MBCGame program that Savior played an integral role in the eventual closing of MBCGame. On one hand, Savior is one hell of a cunning guy - he is still finding ways to milk the money out of the very business he destroyed himself.
On March 30 2012 01:13 supernovamaniac wrote: One last question: If this person did have huge impact on BW scene, is it still justifiable for him to make money off from something that he helped destroy?
Can't really argue with anything past this point. It just leaves a bitter taste in your mouth.
Ok nerds. stop said savior killed the bw scene. The entire world is in crisis. and korea is not the exception. Mbc move to kpop cuz they can win much more... u are just nerds .i saw many football players sell games. and football is still the best thing in the world. ofc not many nerds know about this
On March 30 2012 04:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Ok nerds. stop said savior killed the bw scene. The entire world is in crisis. and korea is not the exception. Mbc move to kpop cuz they can win much more... u are just nerds .i saw many football players sell games. and football is still the best thing in the world. ofc not many nerds know about this
I still don't know if you're not informed or if you're trying to run away from the truth. Even after all these months after I presented some evidence as well as adieu MBC translations, I'm forced to believe that you're just trying to force yourself to believe that savior didn't play any role whatsoever.
On March 30 2012 00:19 HwangjaeTerran wrote: I think this is good. How is it bad? Progamers usually don't have high degrees and they must get by somehow. The match fixers have it especially hard. 75$ for 4,5hours of Savior teaching you, which you can divide with your friend, that's just sick good deal.
The court punished the match fixers well enough, there's no need for me to judge them further.
In case you dont know, Korea has a great economy at the moment. Unemployment is ~3%. Its easy for a grown healthy guy like Savior to get a job. There is no need to further poison the scene with his presence, sorry to say.
i dont get this sentiment. how is he damaging/poisoning the scene? the fact is that he fucked the scene up when he match fixed, but that was back then. now...he is playing BW on afreeca for thousands of people and so that he can live off balloons.
the only person this is screwing up is savior himself. he is getting a bad image by living off the game he once screwed....but stop kidding yourselves and think that this is somehow hurting our precious bw. we are past that now and we have much BIGGER problems other than crying about what savior is doing for a living.
edit: oh btw i would sign up cuz the lessons are dirt cheap and within a week he will understand that he can charge a hell of a lot more. so get in on this deal if you can or for the haters, rip him off cuz he doesnt know how much he is worth.
On March 30 2012 04:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Ok nerds. stop said savior killed the bw scene. The entire world is in crisis. and korea is not the exception. Mbc move to kpop cuz they can win much more... u are just nerds .i saw many football players sell games. and football is still the best thing in the world. ofc not many nerds know about this
I still don't know if you're not informed or if you're trying to run away from the truth. Even after all these months after I presented some evidence as well as adieu MBC translations, I'm forced to believe that you're just trying to force yourself to believe that savior didn't play any role whatsoever.
ya sure. and whats gonna said 2 3 casters ?. look whats said the bonjwa caster on ogn ... its ok big impact. not more. savior change the bw curse in many ways.I my self think he do more good things . but everyone have his opinion
I don't know all of the details of the match fixing thing (I know it occurred, but without knowing both sides full details I'm not going to judge), but good for him. He's definitely talented, so why not make legal money off of that talent.
On March 30 2012 04:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Ok nerds. stop said savior killed the bw scene. The entire world is in crisis. and korea is not the exception. Mbc move to kpop cuz they can win much more... u are just nerds .i saw many football players sell games. and football is still the best thing in the world. ofc not many nerds know about this
I still don't know if you're not informed or if you're trying to run away from the truth. Even after all these months after I presented some evidence as well as adieu MBC translations, I'm forced to believe that you're just trying to force yourself to believe that savior didn't play any role whatsoever.
ya sure. and whats gonna said 2 3 casters ?. look whats said the bonjwa caster on ogn ... its ok big impact. not more. savior change the bw curse in many ways.I my self think he do more good things . but everyone have his opinion
Out of that video all you got was that they said "It's OK big impact not more"? I don't even think they said anything about it being OK, I am pretty sure it was the complete opposite.
edit: I also have the stance that if people want to give Savior money there is nothing we can do to stop them, I only have issues when people claim that Savior did not do anything wrong or it was not a big deal. (the edit is my opinion nothing specific towards you.)
On March 30 2012 01:13 supernovamaniac wrote: At this point in time, translating articles like these only bring out the "ugly" of the community. It's better if articles about savior aren't translated at all (not saying that you shouldn't translate articles at all).
I still find it funny that people are talking about "oh, he made one wrong choice in life" "psh that wasn't a big deal, it's in the past" etc. Then let me ask you a question: Did you truly enjoy MyStarleague that they did instead of regular OSL season last year? Did you enjoy the long off-season of Proleague with speculations that it might not happen again (same goes for OSL)? Did you truly enjoy the news of MBC Game being shut down? If you said No to one of these questions, then I don't know what the fuck's wrong with you. Maybe you just didn't know how huge the impact of match fixing was, or you're just trying to runaway from the truth.
MyStarleague happened because OSL couldn't get any sponsors after Bacchus. Weird, huh? Last time OSL couldn't find sponsors was Daum Starleague and they just went ahead with the league without any sponsors. JinAir OSL sponsorship was announced sometime into the league, not before the group selection. And this upcoming OSL is in the same situation: still no sponsorship. When did the most prestigious league in BroodWar have hard time getting sponsorship in OSL, especially after the amazing finals like the reverse sweep in Korean Air season 1 and legend of the fall in Jin Air?
I don't even need to discuss MBCGame because I posted few pictures from MBCGame that directly proves that some "incidents" had an effect on closure of the station.
I'm just going to leave questions here. It is okay if you follow someone who's good at playing this game. But if you're going to ignore the facts, you might as well ignore the Korean BroodWar scene along with it.
EDIT: One last question: If this person did have huge impact on BW scene, is it still justifiable for him to make money off from something that he helped destroy?
SC2 Fans: "Omg a good BW player who isn't playing BW? We should forgive him so he can play SC2! Causing the downfall of the scene? Who cares, you guys just can't get over it."
Could that possibly be anymore unrelated or flameworthy? Mods?! I summon you!!!
On March 30 2012 04:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Ok nerds. stop said savior killed the bw scene. The entire world is in crisis. and korea is not the exception. Mbc move to kpop cuz they can win much more... u are just nerds .i saw many football players sell games. and football is still the best thing in the world. ofc not many nerds know about this
I still don't know if you're not informed or if you're trying to run away from the truth. Even after all these months after I presented some evidence as well as adieu MBC translations, I'm forced to believe that you're just trying to force yourself to believe that savior didn't play any role whatsoever.
ya sure. and whats gonna said 2 3 casters ?. look whats said the bonjwa caster on ogn ... its ok big impact. not more. savior change the bw curse in many ways.I my self think he do more good things . but everyone have his opinion
Out of that video all you got was that they said "It's OK big impact not more"? I don't even think they said anything about it being OK, I am pretty sure it was the complete opposite.
u take my words in the wrong way. ok nig impact in the wrong side But this not mean he killed the work of years. is just bw become less interesting and less.
On March 30 2012 04:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Ok nerds. stop said savior killed the bw scene. The entire world is in crisis. and korea is not the exception. Mbc move to kpop cuz they can win much more... u are just nerds .i saw many football players sell games. and football is still the best thing in the world. ofc not many nerds know about this
I still don't know if you're not informed or if you're trying to run away from the truth. Even after all these months after I presented some evidence as well as adieu MBC translations, I'm forced to believe that you're just trying to force yourself to believe that savior didn't play any role whatsoever.
He created, he destroyed. Big deal? Depends on what you mean by that. He took a dying esports and brought it to life again. Remember the sync OSL and the era of oov? The games were a fucking pain to watch and the players had a much different impact on the public eye. The figure of the superstar progamer that kind of came about with Xellos became reality with Savior and thanks to him alone.
All the evidence you quoted about him being an evil person with no regrets is sensationalist press coming from korean fox news. Bifrost had a bigger impact than him and called himself a progamer too on the first appeal. I don't give a fuck what title you call yourself, except that those words were said in a court of justice where the players had to state the evidence and their side of the story. It was their full right to do so, and furthermore it was their duty. They were processed as progamers and that should have been the end of the story.
Kespa legislation ended when they brought the players into the process, anything else is just the good old bandwagon shaming that koreans love.
Sad it has come to this. Wish he didn't have to matchfix in the first place, so selfish and heartbreaking for the ENTIRE starcraft community...so huge to see such a talented player be involved in such a shady business. Makes you doubt the entire starcraft business really, and that is why I can never truly forgive him. Such a waste of tremendous talent
On March 30 2012 00:19 HwangjaeTerran wrote: I think this is good. How is it bad? Progamers usually don't have high degrees and they must get by somehow. The match fixers have it especially hard. 75$ for 4,5hours of Savior teaching you, which you can divide with your friend, that's just sick good deal.
The court punished the match fixers well enough, there's no need for me to judge them further.
In case you dont know, Korea has a great economy at the moment. Unemployment is ~3%. Its easy for a grown healthy guy like Savior to get a job. There is no need to further poison the scene with his presence, sorry to say.
i dont get this sentiment. how is he damaging/poisoning the scene? the fact is that he fucked the scene up when he match fixed, but that was back then. now...he is playing BW on afreeca for thousands of people and so that he can live off balloons.
the only person this is screwing up is savior himself. he is getting a bad image by living off the game he once screwed....but stop kidding yourselves and think that this is somehow hurting our precious bw. we are past that now and we have much BIGGER problems other than crying about what savior is doing for a living.
edit: oh btw i would sign up cuz the lessons are dirt cheap and within a week he will understand that he can charge a hell of a lot more. so get in on this deal if you can or for the haters, rip him off cuz he doesnt know how much he is worth.
If anything I would say that he's helping the scene. I'm still waiting for the day a dark prince trained by savior himself walks the royal road.
On March 30 2012 04:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Ok nerds. stop said savior killed the bw scene. The entire world is in crisis. and korea is not the exception. Mbc move to kpop cuz they can win much more... u are just nerds .i saw many football players sell games. and football is still the best thing in the world. ofc not many nerds know about this
I still don't know if you're not informed or if you're trying to run away from the truth. Even after all these months after I presented some evidence as well as adieu MBC translations, I'm forced to believe that you're just trying to force yourself to believe that savior didn't play any role whatsoever.
He created, he destroyed. Big deal? Depends on what you mean by that. He took a dying esports and brought it to life again. Remember the sync OSL and the era of oov? The games were a fucking pain to watch and the players had a much different impact on the public eye. The figure of the superstar progamer that kind of came about with Xellos became reality with Savior and thanks to him alone.
All the evidence you quoted about him being an evil person with no regrets is sensationalist press coming from korean fox news. Bifrost had a bigger impact than him and called himself a progamer too on the first appeal. I don't give a fuck what title you call yourself, except that those words were said in a court of justice where the players had to state the evidence and their side of the story. It was their full right to do so, and furthermore it was their duty. They were processed as progamers and that should have been the end of the story.
Kespa legislation ended when they brought the players into the process, anything else is just the good old bandwagon shaming that koreans love.
But wait a minute.. wasnt BW at its peak of popularity then? In the oov era mid 2000s? so how was it a pain?
On March 30 2012 04:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Ok nerds. stop said savior killed the bw scene. The entire world is in crisis. and korea is not the exception. Mbc move to kpop cuz they can win much more... u are just nerds .i saw many football players sell games. and football is still the best thing in the world. ofc not many nerds know about this
I still don't know if you're not informed or if you're trying to run away from the truth. Even after all these months after I presented some evidence as well as adieu MBC translations, I'm forced to believe that you're just trying to force yourself to believe that savior didn't play any role whatsoever.
He created, he destroyed. Big deal? Depends on what you mean by that. He took a dying esports and brought it to life again. Remember the sync OSL and the era of oov? The games were a fucking pain to watch and the players had a much different impact on the public eye. The figure of the superstar progamer that kind of came about with Xellos became reality with Savior and thanks to him alone.
All the evidence you quoted about him being an evil person with no regrets is sensationalist press coming from korean fox news. Bifrost had a bigger impact than him and called himself a progamer too on the first appeal. I don't give a fuck what title you call yourself, except that those words were said in a court of justice where the players had to state the evidence and their side of the story. It was their full right to do so, and furthermore it was their duty. They were processed as progamers and that should have been the end of the story.
Kespa legislation ended when they brought the players into the process, anything else is just the good old bandwagon shaming that koreans love.
But wait a minute.. wasnt BW at its peak of popularity then? In the oov era mid 2000s? so how was it a pain?
nope. every year people say bw dying .. u can check 2005 . OMG bw is dying. ...same 2006 2007 2008 almost..
On March 30 2012 04:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: .i saw many football players sell games. and football is still the best thing in the world. ofc not many nerds know about this
User was warned for this post
But esports was never as big as football back then. You cant really compare the two. If a few football player sell games football can survive since it is a global sports with many sponsors. But for starcraft it is not the same. It takes time to get sponsors. The whole match-fixing gave potential sponsors a bad impression of the starcraft environment.
On March 30 2012 04:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Ok nerds. stop said savior killed the bw scene. The entire world is in crisis. and korea is not the exception. Mbc move to kpop cuz they can win much more... u are just nerds .i saw many football players sell games. and football is still the best thing in the world. ofc not many nerds know about this
I still don't know if you're not informed or if you're trying to run away from the truth. Even after all these months after I presented some evidence as well as adieu MBC translations, I'm forced to believe that you're just trying to force yourself to believe that savior didn't play any role whatsoever.
He created, he destroyed. Big deal? Depends on what you mean by that. He took a dying esports and brought it to life again. Remember the sync OSL and the era of oov? The games were a fucking pain to watch and the players had a much different impact on the public eye. The figure of the superstar progamer that kind of came about with Xellos became reality with Savior and thanks to him alone.
All the evidence you quoted about him being an evil person with no regrets is sensationalist press coming from korean fox news. Bifrost had a bigger impact than him and called himself a progamer too on the first appeal. I don't give a fuck what title you call yourself, except that those words were said in a court of justice where the players had to state the evidence and their side of the story. It was their full right to do so, and furthermore it was their duty. They were processed as progamers and that should have been the end of the story.
Kespa legislation ended when they brought the players into the process, anything else is just the good old bandwagon shaming that koreans love.
Let me rephrase what happened:
Savior: I'm quitting BW to start studying, and I'm going to go study abroad (from his very own afreeca channel)
Who gives a shit at this point? It's been so long since all that went down and by now what Savior does with BW on his own time doesn't really have any impact on anything because he is so utterly removed from the professional scene. Let him do what he wants to do.
On March 30 2012 04:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Ok nerds. stop said savior killed the bw scene. The entire world is in crisis. and korea is not the exception. Mbc move to kpop cuz they can win much more... u are just nerds .i saw many football players sell games. and football is still the best thing in the world. ofc not many nerds know about this
I still don't know if you're not informed or if you're trying to run away from the truth. Even after all these months after I presented some evidence as well as adieu MBC translations, I'm forced to believe that you're just trying to force yourself to believe that savior didn't play any role whatsoever.
He created, he destroyed. Big deal? Depends on what you mean by that. He took a dying esports and brought it to life again. Remember the sync OSL and the era of oov? The games were a fucking pain to watch and the players had a much different impact on the public eye. The figure of the superstar progamer that kind of came about with Xellos became reality with Savior and thanks to him alone.
All the evidence you quoted about him being an evil person with no regrets is sensationalist press coming from korean fox news. Bifrost had a bigger impact than him and called himself a progamer too on the first appeal. I don't give a fuck what title you call yourself, except that those words were said in a court of justice where the players had to state the evidence and their side of the story. It was their full right to do so, and furthermore it was their duty. They were processed as progamers and that should have been the end of the story.
Kespa legislation ended when they brought the players into the process, anything else is just the good old bandwagon shaming that koreans love.
Let me rephrase what happened:
Savior: I'm quitting BW to start studying, and I'm going to go study abroad (from his very own afreeca channel)
few months later:
Savior: I'm giving out BW lessons.
ok u mad cuz savior give free win to bisu in the msl final fake win bro so sad :D
On March 30 2012 04:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Ok nerds. stop said savior killed the bw scene. The entire world is in crisis. and korea is not the exception. Mbc move to kpop cuz they can win much more... u are just nerds .i saw many football players sell games. and football is still the best thing in the world. ofc not many nerds know about this
I still don't know if you're not informed or if you're trying to run away from the truth. Even after all these months after I presented some evidence as well as adieu MBC translations, I'm forced to believe that you're just trying to force yourself to believe that savior didn't play any role whatsoever.
He created, he destroyed. Big deal? Depends on what you mean by that. He took a dying esports and brought it to life again. Remember the sync OSL and the era of oov? The games were a fucking pain to watch and the players had a much different impact on the public eye. The figure of the superstar progamer that kind of came about with Xellos became reality with Savior and thanks to him alone.
All the evidence you quoted about him being an evil person with no regrets is sensationalist press coming from korean fox news. Bifrost had a bigger impact than him and called himself a progamer too on the first appeal. I don't give a fuck what title you call yourself, except that those words were said in a court of justice where the players had to state the evidence and their side of the story. It was their full right to do so, and furthermore it was their duty. They were processed as progamers and that should have been the end of the story.
Kespa legislation ended when they brought the players into the process, anything else is just the good old bandwagon shaming that koreans love.
Let me rephrase what happened:
Savior: I'm quitting BW to start studying, and I'm going to go study abroad (from his very own afreeca channel)
few months later:
Savior: I'm giving out BW lessons.
ok u mad cuz savior give free win to bisu in the msl final fake win bro so sad :D
On March 30 2012 04:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Ok nerds. stop said savior killed the bw scene. The entire world is in crisis. and korea is not the exception. Mbc move to kpop cuz they can win much more... u are just nerds .i saw many football players sell games. and football is still the best thing in the world. ofc not many nerds know about this
I still don't know if you're not informed or if you're trying to run away from the truth. Even after all these months after I presented some evidence as well as adieu MBC translations, I'm forced to believe that you're just trying to force yourself to believe that savior didn't play any role whatsoever.
He created, he destroyed. Big deal? Depends on what you mean by that. He took a dying esports and brought it to life again. Remember the sync OSL and the era of oov? The games were a fucking pain to watch and the players had a much different impact on the public eye. The figure of the superstar progamer that kind of came about with Xellos became reality with Savior and thanks to him alone.
All the evidence you quoted about him being an evil person with no regrets is sensationalist press coming from korean fox news. Bifrost had a bigger impact than him and called himself a progamer too on the first appeal. I don't give a fuck what title you call yourself, except that those words were said in a court of justice where the players had to state the evidence and their side of the story. It was their full right to do so, and furthermore it was their duty. They were processed as progamers and that should have been the end of the story.
Kespa legislation ended when they brought the players into the process, anything else is just the good old bandwagon shaming that koreans love.
Let me rephrase what happened:
Savior: I'm quitting BW to start studying, and I'm going to go study abroad (from his very own afreeca channel)
few months later:
Savior: I'm giving out BW lessons.
ok u mad cuz savior give free win to bisu in the msl final fake win bro so sad :D
On March 30 2012 04:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Ok nerds. stop said savior killed the bw scene. The entire world is in crisis. and korea is not the exception. Mbc move to kpop cuz they can win much more... u are just nerds .i saw many football players sell games. and football is still the best thing in the world. ofc not many nerds know about this
I still don't know if you're not informed or if you're trying to run away from the truth. Even after all these months after I presented some evidence as well as adieu MBC translations, I'm forced to believe that you're just trying to force yourself to believe that savior didn't play any role whatsoever.
He created, he destroyed. Big deal? Depends on what you mean by that. He took a dying esports and brought it to life again. Remember the sync OSL and the era of oov? The games were a fucking pain to watch and the players had a much different impact on the public eye. The figure of the superstar progamer that kind of came about with Xellos became reality with Savior and thanks to him alone.
All the evidence you quoted about him being an evil person with no regrets is sensationalist press coming from korean fox news. Bifrost had a bigger impact than him and called himself a progamer too on the first appeal. I don't give a fuck what title you call yourself, except that those words were said in a court of justice where the players had to state the evidence and their side of the story. It was their full right to do so, and furthermore it was their duty. They were processed as progamers and that should have been the end of the story.
Kespa legislation ended when they brought the players into the process, anything else is just the good old bandwagon shaming that koreans love.
Let me rephrase what happened:
Savior: I'm quitting BW to start studying, and I'm going to go study abroad (from his very own afreeca channel)
few months later:
Savior: I'm giving out BW lessons.
ok u mad cuz savior give free win to bisu in the msl final fake win bro so sad :D
Can you please shut up.
Agreed, with as many posts as you have it's head scratching to see garbage like this.
On March 30 2012 04:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Ok nerds. stop said savior killed the bw scene. The entire world is in crisis. and korea is not the exception. Mbc move to kpop cuz they can win much more... u are just nerds .i saw many football players sell games. and football is still the best thing in the world. ofc not many nerds know about this
I still don't know if you're not informed or if you're trying to run away from the truth. Even after all these months after I presented some evidence as well as adieu MBC translations, I'm forced to believe that you're just trying to force yourself to believe that savior didn't play any role whatsoever.
He created, he destroyed. Big deal? Depends on what you mean by that. He took a dying esports and brought it to life again. Remember the sync OSL and the era of oov? The games were a fucking pain to watch and the players had a much different impact on the public eye. The figure of the superstar progamer that kind of came about with Xellos became reality with Savior and thanks to him alone.
All the evidence you quoted about him being an evil person with no regrets is sensationalist press coming from korean fox news. Bifrost had a bigger impact than him and called himself a progamer too on the first appeal. I don't give a fuck what title you call yourself, except that those words were said in a court of justice where the players had to state the evidence and their side of the story. It was their full right to do so, and furthermore it was their duty. They were processed as progamers and that should have been the end of the story.
Kespa legislation ended when they brought the players into the process, anything else is just the good old bandwagon shaming that koreans love.
Let me rephrase what happened:
Savior: I'm quitting BW to start studying, and I'm going to go study abroad (from his very own afreeca channel)
few months later:
Savior: I'm giving out BW lessons.
One time I told my mother I was going to study the classics, but I studied math instead. It's his life, haven't you ever changed your mind before?
On March 30 2012 04:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Ok nerds. stop said savior killed the bw scene. The entire world is in crisis. and korea is not the exception. Mbc move to kpop cuz they can win much more... u are just nerds .i saw many football players sell games. and football is still the best thing in the world. ofc not many nerds know about this
I still don't know if you're not informed or if you're trying to run away from the truth. Even after all these months after I presented some evidence as well as adieu MBC translations, I'm forced to believe that you're just trying to force yourself to believe that savior didn't play any role whatsoever.
He created, he destroyed. Big deal? Depends on what you mean by that. He took a dying esports and brought it to life again. Remember the sync OSL and the era of oov? The games were a fucking pain to watch and the players had a much different impact on the public eye. The figure of the superstar progamer that kind of came about with Xellos became reality with Savior and thanks to him alone.
All the evidence you quoted about him being an evil person with no regrets is sensationalist press coming from korean fox news. Bifrost had a bigger impact than him and called himself a progamer too on the first appeal. I don't give a fuck what title you call yourself, except that those words were said in a court of justice where the players had to state the evidence and their side of the story. It was their full right to do so, and furthermore it was their duty. They were processed as progamers and that should have been the end of the story.
Kespa legislation ended when they brought the players into the process, anything else is just the good old bandwagon shaming that koreans love.
Let me rephrase what happened:
Savior: I'm quitting BW to start studying, and I'm going to go study abroad (from his very own afreeca channel)
few months later:
Savior: I'm giving out BW lessons.
ok u mad cuz savior give free win to bisu in the msl final fake win bro so sad :D
I don't think people were fixing matches in 2007, didn't web betting of games take off a bit later? Besides, the prize money for a final is a LOT. The financial justification for fixing matches is that you can make more off the ones that don't matter. Not the damn sets that determine whether you get a tens of thousands of dollars prize. Bisu simply won that day.
Well, he invested a crucial period of his life into BW, its all he knows now bascially. I don't see how this is a problem for KESPA or the BW scene.... He's not participating in the events. Maybe he didn't understand the seriousness of what he was doing. Anyways, @ people telling him to stop making money off BW? Thats what Pros do.... make money off a video game. Even people in like diamond and masters sell coaching lessons in starcraft 2, I saw it in halo too. People that were 50's would sell lessons....
On March 30 2012 04:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Ok nerds. stop said savior killed the bw scene. The entire world is in crisis. and korea is not the exception. Mbc move to kpop cuz they can win much more... u are just nerds .i saw many football players sell games. and football is still the best thing in the world. ofc not many nerds know about this
I still don't know if you're not informed or if you're trying to run away from the truth. Even after all these months after I presented some evidence as well as adieu MBC translations, I'm forced to believe that you're just trying to force yourself to believe that savior didn't play any role whatsoever.
He created, he destroyed. Big deal? Depends on what you mean by that. He took a dying esports and brought it to life again. Remember the sync OSL and the era of oov? The games were a fucking pain to watch and the players had a much different impact on the public eye. The figure of the superstar progamer that kind of came about with Xellos became reality with Savior and thanks to him alone.
All the evidence you quoted about him being an evil person with no regrets is sensationalist press coming from korean fox news. Bifrost had a bigger impact than him and called himself a progamer too on the first appeal. I don't give a fuck what title you call yourself, except that those words were said in a court of justice where the players had to state the evidence and their side of the story. It was their full right to do so, and furthermore it was their duty. They were processed as progamers and that should have been the end of the story.
Kespa legislation ended when they brought the players into the process, anything else is just the good old bandwagon shaming that koreans love.
Let me rephrase what happened:
Savior: I'm quitting BW to start studying, and I'm going to go study abroad (from his very own afreeca channel)
few months later:
Savior: I'm giving out BW lessons.
One time I told my mother I was going to study the classics, but I studied math instead. It's his life, haven't you ever changed your mind before?
On March 30 2012 04:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Ok nerds. stop said savior killed the bw scene. The entire world is in crisis. and korea is not the exception. Mbc move to kpop cuz they can win much more... u are just nerds .i saw many football players sell games. and football is still the best thing in the world. ofc not many nerds know about this
I still don't know if you're not informed or if you're trying to run away from the truth. Even after all these months after I presented some evidence as well as adieu MBC translations, I'm forced to believe that you're just trying to force yourself to believe that savior didn't play any role whatsoever.
He created, he destroyed. Big deal? Depends on what you mean by that. He took a dying esports and brought it to life again. Remember the sync OSL and the era of oov? The games were a fucking pain to watch and the players had a much different impact on the public eye. The figure of the superstar progamer that kind of came about with Xellos became reality with Savior and thanks to him alone.
All the evidence you quoted about him being an evil person with no regrets is sensationalist press coming from korean fox news. Bifrost had a bigger impact than him and called himself a progamer too on the first appeal. I don't give a fuck what title you call yourself, except that those words were said in a court of justice where the players had to state the evidence and their side of the story. It was their full right to do so, and furthermore it was their duty. They were processed as progamers and that should have been the end of the story.
Kespa legislation ended when they brought the players into the process, anything else is just the good old bandwagon shaming that koreans love.
Let me rephrase what happened:
Savior: I'm quitting BW to start studying, and I'm going to go study abroad (from his very own afreeca channel)
few months later:
Savior: I'm giving out BW lessons.
ok u mad cuz savior give free win to bisu in the msl final fake win bro so sad :D
I don't think people were fixing matches in 2007, didn't web betting of games take off a bit later? Besides, the prize money for a final is a LOT. The financial justification for fixing matches is that you can make more off the ones that don't matter. Not the damn sets that determine whether you get a tens of thousands of dollars prize. Bisu simply won that day.
The new guy vs the 3 msl winner. u joking ? ( i said this before for joke. but thiinking about this. this have alot of sense. savior proly win more money than bisu the winner of the starleague -_-
Even thought people are gonna inevitably go way overboard and complain about the match fixing/killing esports type stuff I think this is an awesome offer and anyone who plays Zerg, can speak Korean and loves BW would be a fool not to take this offer up imo. If I spoke Korean I'd probably drop $200 on this.
On March 30 2012 03:36 1Eris1 wrote: The fact that people would actually pay for lessons with this guy...Its basically giving brood war a giant middle finger to the face.
On March 30 2012 04:22 Kleinmuuhg wrote: Why cant he just go away tt
I do find it kind of disturbing the people who make out like if you still like savior, watch him play or would consider these lessons then you're somehow a terrible human who is telling all BW players you want the game to die and be disgraced forever more. Keep your hormones in check please guys, life isn't that black and white.
If you don't like savior and you're not interested in anything he's done since the match-fixing then great, have at it. Can the rest of us do what we like tho? Thanks.
Apparently some people have different moral norms than yours. Amazing I know. Is a discussion about what Savior "should" do because we think that it would be nicer that way really worthwhile? He has proven multiple times to be quite the shameless guy. And that's OK, he can't help it if he doesn't care and it is not my/anyone's business anyway. Ultimately that is the price we pay for living in free societies (well most of us, I think): as long as it is legal dicks have absolute freedom to maintain their dick ways and there is fuck all that can be done about it.
On topic: Surprised how dirt cheap the lessons are. I doubt he will have trouble finding customers.
I really wish Savior would just move on from anything BW related, but I guess it's within his rights. You would never see me pay a penny to that bastard though.
That's a really good price considering the quality of the coach and comparing it to prices by other players. This guy was a fucking bonjwa. Hell, some people would have given $35 for his signature probably.
On March 30 2012 05:53 Thorin wrote: Even thought people are gonna inevitably go way overboard and complain about the match fixing/killing esports type stuff I think this is an awesome offer and anyone who plays Zerg, can speak Korean and loves BW would be a fool not to take this offer up imo. If I spoke Korean I'd probably drop $200 on this.
On March 30 2012 03:36 1Eris1 wrote: The fact that people would actually pay for lessons with this guy...Its basically giving brood war a giant middle finger to the face.
On March 30 2012 04:22 Kleinmuuhg wrote: Why cant he just go away tt
I do find it kind of disturbing the people who make out like if you still like savior, watch him play or would consider these lessons then you're somehow a terrible human who is telling all BW players you want the game to die and be disgraced forever more. Keep your hormones in check please guys, life isn't that black and white.
If you don't like savior and you're not interested in anything he's done since the match-fixing then great, have at it. Can the rest of us do what we like tho? Thanks.
Seriously dude? BW is dying right now and Savior is arguably the single greatest reason as to why. He's a scumbag who wanted to make more money (even well he was already making hundreds of thousands) and had no problems screwing over his teammates, team, fans, etc in the process. There's nothing "grey" about that. I have no problems watching Savior play; shit I still watch his VODs from time to time because he's the greatest fucking zerg of all time, but I honestly can't fathom how a BW fan would want to support this guy.
On March 29 2012 23:06 GTR wrote: 30k won is quite a lot (compared to the other afreeca bjs) players like eagle/anytime do it for 10-15k won p/hr iirc. that being said, you are learning from probably the greatest strategic zerg ever to play bw.
welp at least it's cheaper than idra.
I actually never understood how people could pay the absolutely ludicrous amount Idra or InControl are asking. I think 25 dollars is a fairly normal amount for an hour with a very good player. I wouldn't pay more if i was crazy enough about the game to pay for a teacher...
You'd be surprised. As an assistant tennis pro at the country club I teach at (during summers), I easily make $50+ hour giving private lessons, and I don't plan on going on tour at all. The head pros I've worked with make over $100/ hour, although they've had experience in the professional scene and whatnot. Granted, the tennis community is a bit richer than the gaming community, but it's all about finding how much money people are willing to spend and showing off how good of a professional and teacher you are, and marketing properly.
I am a violionist and I charge at least 30 euros an hour. Some great teachers charge up to 150 euros, and most people find it way too expensive.
The thing is that a great violinist who charge 150 euros or more an hour usually have skill and career achievements that would rather compare to a mixture of Flash, Jaedong and Bisu put together (that's how much talent, time and dedication you need to be a great virtuoso) rather than the one of a player who never even made it to Proleague or past a preliminary. Also the main thing is that the people who would pay that amount of money (that is still twice less than what Idra asks iirc) are themselves very advanced young professionals for whom playing is basically their whole life.
Paying what, 300 dollars for an hour of online "coaching" by an unexperienced coach (because that's also something else, the great violin teacher that ask for twice less than Idra have usually been teaching for 30 years) and kinda half decent pro-gamer player (I am not saying here that Idra was bad, although at least as a Brood War player, I never thought he was the quarter of the worst A-team players in proleague) is just throwing money out the window. I find that insane.
On March 30 2012 01:05 Ilikestarcraft wrote: I don't think his intention to make money is wrong because that is one of the reasons most people coach in the first place. Savior isn't really taking advantage of anyone. Its people's money and they can do what they want with it. If people are willing to offer money and are interested in being coached then why not. I personally think this is a better way than living off donations from his fans since hes actually being paid in exchange for something. Don't think anyone really has a legit reason to hate on what hes doing.
Yeah, I agree with this. Savior has been playing BW since his teens right? Outside of pro-gaming what is he actually qualified to do, does he have any type of education at all? The guy has got to be able to support himself somehow, and what he is offering is something of relatively high value. I don't think this situation hurts anyone or does any more damage to BW/esports. So honestly, I say let the guy be.
I think the reason that is getting everyone all so work up is because Savior isn't just another no name player . Lots of time and money has been spent on promoting this guy to create the fan base for starcraft broodwar and now since he created the loophole for outside third party meddle in to what is suppose to be a "clean" sport . Not only he tainted the scene and destroyed every potential good players that were playing in the scene . He may also inadvertently killed the scene in a way because Savior/Hwasin/Upmagic do pull a lot of crowds and fans .
That is a good point, Savior is only at a place where he can do this because of the support of the scene that he turned his back on. But at the same time, Savior made a lot of money for a lot of people as well (not the illegal gambling site, I mean like his team, MBC, OGN, etc) that probably far outweighed the amount of money that was spent to promote and market him.
On March 30 2012 01:05 Ilikestarcraft wrote: I don't think his intention to make money is wrong because that is one of the reasons most people coach in the first place. Savior isn't really taking advantage of anyone. Its people's money and they can do what they want with it. If people are willing to offer money and are interested in being coached then why not. I personally think this is a better way than living off donations from his fans since hes actually being paid in exchange for something. Don't think anyone really has a legit reason to hate on what hes doing.
Yeah, I agree with this. Savior has been playing BW since his teens right? Outside of pro-gaming what is he actually qualified to do, does he have any type of education at all? The guy has got to be able to support himself somehow, and what he is offering is something of relatively high value. I don't think this situation hurts anyone or does any more damage to BW/esports. So honestly, I say let the guy be.
It doesen't. And I don't really care what Savior does now. But what gives him the right to use BW to make money. The excuse "this is all I know what to do" is disgusting. What about guys like go.go that can barely take care of themselves (Oldboy) How is that fair to them, the people he dragged into this mess. They have 0 skills as well. He's just lucky he had such a successful career or this wouldn't even work.
He should just do his military service, people will forget about him, and he should just go to school and make a proper future for himself. Clinging on to BW after what he's done just b/c "its all I know" is crazy. Nothing wrong with streaming, but Im getting the impression he's actually using his BW fame and career to sustain himself completely.
What gives you the right to tell him he can't use BW to make money? Let's be fair, none of us knows exactly what type of financial situation he is in; and education in Korean culture from most other nations. Could one even get into a decent school in Korea with a criminal background?
Someone earlier in this thread used baseball as a comparison; and I think that actually is a pretty good example. If say hypothetically, Barry Bonds (someone who many in the US feel damaged Major League Baseball with his rampant use of illegal performanced enhancing drugs and subsequent breaking of MLB records) decides that he wants to start selling baseball lessons to minor and college league players; I am sure there would be outrage by some. Many feel he "cheated" to break Hank Aaron's record and many still feel that he is a disgrace to the sport.
But realistically, the opportunity to take lessons with someone as talented as Bonds could be potentially invaluableto an up and coming player, clearly he has a lot of talent and knowledge about the game that few others do. (it takes more than just strength to hit that many homers) Others may just do it for a chance to meet Bonds. Even if he were doing it for pure financial gain, the result could be quite positive and in all honestly doesn't cause MLB or anyone else any additional harm. And if Barry Bonds doesn't offer lessons, that doesn't undo the damage he did to Major League Baseball; it doesn't change the records he broke using while illegal drugs. It doesn't change the opinions of thousands of former fans or myself.
I think the situation with Savior is no different. Yes, he did irrevocable damage to the scene, yes, he put his selfish greed above the fans. Yes, he betrayed a lot of people. But realistically what's the potential harm here? His lifetime ban from Kespa seems ironclad, so what's the harm if people want to pay him in exchange for some personal lessons? Who does that really hurt? While I realize many people will forever remain dissappointed in him, the community doesn't "own" BW, just like I don't own baseball. If Barry Bonds wants to start selling signed baseballs on Ebay, there's not a darn thing I can do to stop him, no matter how I may feel about him. At some point I have to accept that and just move on.
On March 30 2012 04:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Ok nerds. stop said savior killed the bw scene. The entire world is in crisis. and korea is not the exception. Mbc move to kpop cuz they can win much more... u are just nerds .i saw many football players sell games. and football is still the best thing in the world. ofc not many nerds know about this
I still don't know if you're not informed or if you're trying to run away from the truth. Even after all these months after I presented some evidence as well as adieu MBC translations, I'm forced to believe that you're just trying to force yourself to believe that savior didn't play any role whatsoever.
He created, he destroyed. Big deal? Depends on what you mean by that. He took a dying esports and brought it to life again. Remember the sync OSL and the era of oov? The games were a fucking pain to watch and the players had a much different impact on the public eye. The figure of the superstar progamer that kind of came about with Xellos became reality with Savior and thanks to him alone.
All the evidence you quoted about him being an evil person with no regrets is sensationalist press coming from korean fox news. Bifrost had a bigger impact than him and called himself a progamer too on the first appeal. I don't give a fuck what title you call yourself, except that those words were said in a court of justice where the players had to state the evidence and their side of the story. It was their full right to do so, and furthermore it was their duty. They were processed as progamers and that should have been the end of the story.
Kespa legislation ended when they brought the players into the process, anything else is just the good old bandwagon shaming that koreans love.
Let me rephrase what happened:
Savior: I'm quitting BW to start studying, and I'm going to go study abroad (from his very own afreeca channel)
few months later:
Savior: I'm giving out BW lessons.
One time I told my mother I was going to study the classics, but I studied math instead. It's his life, haven't you ever changed your mind before?
On March 30 2012 04:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Ok nerds. stop said savior killed the bw scene. The entire world is in crisis. and korea is not the exception. Mbc move to kpop cuz they can win much more... u are just nerds .i saw many football players sell games. and football is still the best thing in the world. ofc not many nerds know about this
I still don't know if you're not informed or if you're trying to run away from the truth. Even after all these months after I presented some evidence as well as adieu MBC translations, I'm forced to believe that you're just trying to force yourself to believe that savior didn't play any role whatsoever.
He created, he destroyed. Big deal? Depends on what you mean by that. He took a dying esports and brought it to life again. Remember the sync OSL and the era of oov? The games were a fucking pain to watch and the players had a much different impact on the public eye. The figure of the superstar progamer that kind of came about with Xellos became reality with Savior and thanks to him alone.
All the evidence you quoted about him being an evil person with no regrets is sensationalist press coming from korean fox news. Bifrost had a bigger impact than him and called himself a progamer too on the first appeal. I don't give a fuck what title you call yourself, except that those words were said in a court of justice where the players had to state the evidence and their side of the story. It was their full right to do so, and furthermore it was their duty. They were processed as progamers and that should have been the end of the story.
Kespa legislation ended when they brought the players into the process, anything else is just the good old bandwagon shaming that koreans love.
Let me rephrase what happened:
Savior: I'm quitting BW to start studying, and I'm going to go study abroad (from his very own afreeca channel)
few months later:
Savior: I'm giving out BW lessons.
ok u mad cuz savior give free win to bisu in the msl final fake win bro so sad :D
I don't think people were fixing matches in 2007, didn't web betting of games take off a bit later? Besides, the prize money for a final is a LOT. The financial justification for fixing matches is that you can make more off the ones that don't matter. Not the damn sets that determine whether you get a tens of thousands of dollars prize. Bisu simply won that day.
Do you think I have problem with people changing their mind? Not really. But if you read what I actually quoted, then you will understand why I reposted that.
I really don't know what to think of this... I think Savior is a well-deserved pariah, and absolutely amoral for what he did. On the other hand, having him disappear 100% won't undo what he did, and I suppose his giving lessons is pretty irrelevant at this point. It's still something for BW, much as I despise the man.
My opinion: Savior <3 you can do what the fuck you wanna do! And red cards for the TL censors aka 'the flawless human beings' for having his stream banned here
On March 30 2012 05:56 PassiveAce wrote: The funniest part of this is the price, remember when idra charged in the hundreds per hour? lol.
I'm not sure you can directly compare the prices. I mean, the lifestyles and costs are so drastically different between the US and Korea that it just isn't possible to make a direct comparison.
On March 30 2012 05:56 PassiveAce wrote: The funniest part of this is the price, remember when idra charged in the hundreds per hour? lol.
I'm not sure you can directly compare the prices. I mean, the lifestyles and costs are so drastically different between the US and Korea that it just isn't possible to make a direct comparison.
FFS.
You guys do realize that Idra charges those prices because he doesn't want to give lessons to a thousand-million people?
Yes a thousand-million
He's using the high price as a deterrent, not as a self-value of his time.
On March 30 2012 02:30 Corsica wrote: 25$ seems like a gift, even all those idras incontrols and destinys charge way more....so to get this price from Savior himself seems like a gift from heaven
It ain't even cheap . I had piano lessons for 30 - 35 dollars for a month 2 hours per week . And i learned a heck of a lot more in that area then anyone could ever teach me in SC2 . In the end both SC2 and piano is all about practice . You have replays you have vods . You can mimic the builds the pros use adding your own variation or just make your own builds . Paying for starcraft lessons is a fucking rip off if you ask me , but at least Savior is charging cheaper then what nonsence i have seen from SC2 coaches and there is basically no better BW zerg coach out there .
On March 30 2012 06:29 PowerDes wrote: Lets change the title from "Match Fixing" to "Zerg Bonjwa".
He doesn't have claim to that title anymore. They took it away from him.
Who in the world are "they"?
Yeah, since Bonjwa is a fan-made unofficial title, I don't really see...
That is why I used the word they, because there is no way of actually proving that anyone took away a title that is not official.
I give up.
I give up as well. Sorry if I do not meet your posting standard about your hero.
This is why these threads are retarded. If you point out just how stupid someone's post is, then they immediately label you as their opposition. Across two pages I've been accused of being a "bisu fan" (anti-Savior) and as a Savior worshiper.
On March 30 2012 01:05 Ilikestarcraft wrote: I don't think his intention to make money is wrong because that is one of the reasons most people coach in the first place. Savior isn't really taking advantage of anyone. Its people's money and they can do what they want with it. If people are willing to offer money and are interested in being coached then why not. I personally think this is a better way than living off donations from his fans since hes actually being paid in exchange for something. Don't think anyone really has a legit reason to hate on what hes doing.
Yeah, I agree with this. Savior has been playing BW since his teens right? Outside of pro-gaming what is he actually qualified to do, does he have any type of education at all? The guy has got to be able to support himself somehow, and what he is offering is something of relatively high value. I don't think this situation hurts anyone or does any more damage to BW/esports. So honestly, I say let the guy be.
It doesen't. And I don't really care what Savior does now. But what gives him the right to use BW to make money. The excuse "this is all I know what to do" is disgusting. What about guys like go.go that can barely take care of themselves (Oldboy) How is that fair to them, the people he dragged into this mess. They have 0 skills as well. He's just lucky he had such a successful career or this wouldn't even work.
He should just do his military service, people will forget about him, and he should just go to school and make a proper future for himself. Clinging on to BW after what he's done just b/c "its all I know" is crazy. Nothing wrong with streaming, but Im getting the impression he's actually using his BW fame and career to sustain himself completely.
To be quite honest, if he comes back from the military and becomes a successful businessmen, it will be the better future for everyone: For savior himself for obvious reasons, and for eSports because it shows to the society that even the "spoiled kids" can become successful in life.
Easier said than done especially with a criminal record. You're acting like you can just get a job without education and even with education it's not certain you'll be successful. Not defending the guy because honestly I don't really care but you oversimplify things too much.
Hm, Savior... In my world (which is much cooler than this one, by the way) there was no such thing as the match-fixing scandal, and Savior would be a respected legend of the past that no longer achieves the same success as he did before. MBCgame wouldn't have shut down, OSL nor PL nor anybody else (including teams) would have problems finding sponsors (i'm not saying all the negative things happening recently in the BW scene has been entirely due to Savior and the scandal).
Oz would still be alive and well, too, for the record. As for the issue at hand here, i'm a little torn, after reading all the responses. On one hand, I don't see anything wrong with him making a living, but on the other hand I find it pathetic that he's trying to squeeze money out of his fans like this. Blah. The whole situation is depressing.
On March 30 2012 01:05 Ilikestarcraft wrote: I don't think his intention to make money is wrong because that is one of the reasons most people coach in the first place. Savior isn't really taking advantage of anyone. Its people's money and they can do what they want with it. If people are willing to offer money and are interested in being coached then why not. I personally think this is a better way than living off donations from his fans since hes actually being paid in exchange for something. Don't think anyone really has a legit reason to hate on what hes doing.
Yeah, I agree with this. Savior has been playing BW since his teens right? Outside of pro-gaming what is he actually qualified to do, does he have any type of education at all? The guy has got to be able to support himself somehow, and what he is offering is something of relatively high value. I don't think this situation hurts anyone or does any more damage to BW/esports. So honestly, I say let the guy be.
It doesen't. And I don't really care what Savior does now. But what gives him the right to use BW to make money. The excuse "this is all I know what to do" is disgusting. What about guys like go.go that can barely take care of themselves (Oldboy) How is that fair to them, the people he dragged into this mess. They have 0 skills as well. He's just lucky he had such a successful career or this wouldn't even work.
He should just do his military service, people will forget about him, and he should just go to school and make a proper future for himself. Clinging on to BW after what he's done just b/c "its all I know" is crazy. Nothing wrong with streaming, but Im getting the impression he's actually using his BW fame and career to sustain himself completely.
To be quite honest, if he comes back from the military and becomes a successful businessmen, it will be the better future for everyone: For savior himself for obvious reasons, and for eSports because it shows to the society that even the "spoiled kids" can become successful in life.
Easier said than done especially with a criminal record. You're acting like you can just get a job without education and even with education it's not certain you'll be successful. Not defending the guy because honestly I don't really care but you oversimplify things too much.
I've stated that in the most optimistic way possible, because if I post my actual views on how he will turn out to be in the future even with education at this point, a lot of people (or match fixer lovers) will hunt me down.
On March 30 2012 06:58 empty.bottle wrote: Can you change the title, everyone knows who Savior is... no need to keep talking about THAT issue.
Why? What he's doing is despicable, and the label succinctly captures the essence of the controversy. People who already know may not need to be reminded of what he did, but people who are new to BW might think HEY AN EX-PRO TUTORING 1-ON-1 FOR $25/HR? AWESOME!!!
As a thread title, Child molester Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services >>>> Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services
On topic, I would pay 25 bucks to curse at MATCH-FIXING-savior for an hour and a half
On March 30 2012 06:58 empty.bottle wrote: Can you change the title, everyone knows who Savior is... no need to keep talking about THAT issue.
Why? What he's doing is despicable, and the label succinctly captures the essence of the controversy. People who already know may not need to be reminded of what he did, but people who are new to BW might think HEY AN EX-PRO TUTORING 1-ON-1 FOR $25/HR? AWESOME!!!
As a thread title, Child molester Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services >>>> Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services
On topic, I would pay 25 bucks to curse at him for an hour and a half
Why is he doing this? He's still in his early twenties and has plenty of money to get an education and to start a different career. Why try making money from the one place where literally everyone hates you? If I were in his position I'd have left the country already, gone to the US or Europe where nobody knows you.
On March 30 2012 06:58 empty.bottle wrote: Can you change the title, everyone knows who Savior is... no need to keep talking about THAT issue.
Why? What he's doing is despicable, and the label adds context to the OP by succinctly capturing the essence of the controversy. People who already know may not need to be reminded of what he did, but people who are new to BW might think HEY AN EX-PRO TUTORING 1-ON-1 FOR $25/HR? AWESOME!!!
Child molester Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services >>>> Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services
on topic, I would pay 25 bucks to curse at him for an hour and a half
Y'know if the SK culture would be more forgiving at incident such as this one and didn't make such a big fuzz about it, the entire media would have centered their focus. And if there is as little as flagrant as possible, sponsors wouldn't probably catch too much attention for this event. Honestly if everyone said 'okay, as long as you promise to NEVER repeat the same mistake twice, we are willing to give you a second chance." The scene would be still relatively in-tact. The match fixing essentially killed Hite Sparkys since two of their promising players was gone (YarnC and Go.Go.). Same applies to ESTRO, they lost their frontal man of the team (UpMagic). If they could just gave them a condition to fix their mistakes, not only this won't impact the E-sport too negatively, it would also strengthen the entire community. These guys could have continued to live as progamers while teaching the youngsters to NEVER replicate their wrongdoings because the repercussion would be catastrophic instead of dwelling in agony and possibly spread execrable rumors about the infrastructure.
I agree that he shouldn't earn money from any SC related stuff, but there's nothing I can do about it other than to wait and see, so I'll just look on the bright side. He might produce good amateurs! The amount of new players per year is constantly decreasing so these ex pros tutoring others might help in keeping BW alive .
On March 30 2012 06:58 empty.bottle wrote: Can you change the title, everyone knows who Savior is... no need to keep talking about THAT issue.
Why? What he's doing is despicable, and the label adds context to the OP by succinctly capturing the essence of the controversy. People who already know may not need to be reminded of what he did, but people who are new to BW might think HEY AN EX-PRO TUTORING 1-ON-1 FOR $25/HR? AWESOME!!!
Child molester Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services >>>> Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services
on topic, I would pay 25 bucks to curse at him for an hour and a half
Y'know if the SK culture would be more forgiving at incident such as this one and didn't make such a big fuzz about it, the entire media would have centered their focus. And if there is as little as flagrant as possible, sponsors wouldn't probably catch too much attention for this event. Honestly if everyone said 'okay, as long as you promise to NEVER repeat the same mistake twice, we are willing to give you a second chance." The scene would be still relatively in-tact. The match fixing essentially killed Hite Sparkys since two of their promising players was gone (YarnC and Go.Go.). Same applies to ESTRO, they lost their frontal man of the team (UpMagic). If they could just gave them a condition to fix their mistakes, not only this won't impact the E-sport too negatively, it would also strengthen the entire community. These guys could have continued to live as progamers while teaching the youngsters to NEVER replicate their wrongdoings because the repercussion would be catastrophic instead of dwelling in agony and possibly spread execrable rumors about the infrastructure.
I agree with your post entirely while maintaining my stance that MATCH-FIXING-savior is like a child molester trying to earn money through babysitting.
On March 30 2012 06:58 empty.bottle wrote: Can you change the title, everyone knows who Savior is... no need to keep talking about THAT issue.
Why? What he's doing is despicable, and the label adds context to the OP by succinctly capturing the essence of the controversy. People who already know may not need to be reminded of what he did, but people who are new to BW might think HEY AN EX-PRO TUTORING 1-ON-1 FOR $25/HR? AWESOME!!!
Child molester Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services >>>> Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services
on topic, I would pay 25 bucks to curse at him for an hour and a half
Y'know if the SK culture would be more forgiving at incident such as this one and didn't make such a big fuzz about it, the entire media would have centered their focus. And if there is as little as flagrant as possible, sponsors wouldn't probably catch too much attention for this event. Honestly if everyone said 'okay, as long as you promise to NEVER repeat the same mistake twice, we are willing to give you a second chance." The scene would be still relatively in-tact. The match fixing essentially killed Hite Sparkys since two of their promising players was gone (YarnC and Go.Go.). Same applies to ESTRO, they lost their frontal man of the team (UpMagic). If they could just gave them a condition to fix their mistakes, not only this won't impact the E-sport too negatively, it would also strengthen the entire community. These guys could have continued to live as progamers while teaching the youngsters to NEVER replicate their wrongdoings because the repercussion would be catastrophic instead of dwelling in agony and possibly spread execrable rumors about the infrastructure.
I agree with your post entirely while maintaining my stance that savior is like a child molester trying to earn money through babysitting.
If we are talking raw babysitting ability a child molester should be very good at dealing with kids.
On March 30 2012 06:58 empty.bottle wrote: Can you change the title, everyone knows who Savior is... no need to keep talking about THAT issue.
Why? What he's doing is despicable, and the label adds context to the OP by succinctly capturing the essence of the controversy. People who already know may not need to be reminded of what he did, but people who are new to BW might think HEY AN EX-PRO TUTORING 1-ON-1 FOR $25/HR? AWESOME!!!
Child molester Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services >>>> Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services
on topic, I would pay 25 bucks to curse at him for an hour and a half
Y'know if the SK culture would be more forgiving at incident such as this one and didn't make such a big fuzz about it, the entire media would have centered their focus. And if there is as little as flagrant as possible, sponsors wouldn't probably catch too much attention for this event. Honestly if everyone said 'okay, as long as you promise to NEVER repeat the same mistake twice, we are willing to give you a second chance." The scene would be still relatively in-tact. The match fixing essentially killed Hite Sparkys since two of their promising players was gone (YarnC and Go.Go.). Same applies to ESTRO, they lost their frontal man of the team (UpMagic). If they could just gave them a condition to fix their mistakes, not only this won't impact the E-sport too negatively, it would also strengthen the entire community. These guys could have continued to live as progamers while teaching the youngsters to NEVER replicate their wrongdoings because the repercussion would be catastrophic instead of dwelling in agony and possibly spread execrable rumors about the infrastructure.
I agree with your post entirely while maintaining my stance that savior is like a child molester trying to earn money through babysitting.
Not sure if you're joking but savior giving lessons is completely legal and harmless. Really, what's the problem here?
On March 30 2012 06:58 empty.bottle wrote: Can you change the title, everyone knows who Savior is... no need to keep talking about THAT issue.
Why? What he's doing is despicable, and the label adds context to the OP by succinctly capturing the essence of the controversy. People who already know may not need to be reminded of what he did, but people who are new to BW might think HEY AN EX-PRO TUTORING 1-ON-1 FOR $25/HR? AWESOME!!!
Child molester Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services >>>> Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services
on topic, I would pay 25 bucks to curse at him for an hour and a half
Y'know if the SK culture would be more forgiving at incident such as this one and didn't make such a big fuzz about it, the entire media would have centered their focus. And if there is as little as flagrant as possible, sponsors wouldn't probably catch too much attention for this event. Honestly if everyone said 'okay, as long as you promise to NEVER repeat the same mistake twice, we are willing to give you a second chance." The scene would be still relatively in-tact. The match fixing essentially killed Hite Sparkys since two of their promising players was gone (YarnC and Go.Go.). Same applies to ESTRO, they lost their frontal man of the team (UpMagic). If they could just gave them a condition to fix their mistakes, not only this won't impact the E-sport too negatively, it would also strengthen the entire community. These guys could have continued to live as progamers while teaching the youngsters to NEVER replicate their wrongdoings because the repercussion would be catastrophic instead of dwelling in agony and possibly spread execrable rumors about the infrastructure.
I agree with your post entirely while maintaining my stance that savior is like a child molester trying to earn money through babysitting.
But a child molester doesn't possess the necessary skills to take care of an infant and is obviously bad at handling such tasks and everyone would already know the potential outcome. MJY, on the other hand should be competent enough to pass down his experience down the line. You and I both know that although he have done much atrocities, one cannot doubt his ability as a player. You wouldn't doubt him being adroit at the game. Therefore for that reason, I am almost sure that he will do a competent job in this category. While as, one will be close to 100% certain of the result of hiring a child molester in taking care of your child.
On March 30 2012 06:58 empty.bottle wrote: Can you change the title, everyone knows who Savior is... no need to keep talking about THAT issue.
Why? What he's doing is despicable, and the label adds context to the OP by succinctly capturing the essence of the controversy. People who already know may not need to be reminded of what he did, but people who are new to BW might think HEY AN EX-PRO TUTORING 1-ON-1 FOR $25/HR? AWESOME!!!
Child molester Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services >>>> Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services
on topic, I would pay 25 bucks to curse at him for an hour and a half
Y'know if the SK culture would be more forgiving at incident such as this one and didn't make such a big fuzz about it, the entire media would have centered their focus. And if there is as little as flagrant as possible, sponsors wouldn't probably catch too much attention for this event. Honestly if everyone said 'okay, as long as you promise to NEVER repeat the same mistake twice, we are willing to give you a second chance." The scene would be still relatively in-tact. The match fixing essentially killed Hite Sparkys since two of their promising players was gone (YarnC and Go.Go.). Same applies to ESTRO, they lost their frontal man of the team (UpMagic). If they could just gave them a condition to fix their mistakes, not only this won't impact the E-sport too negatively, it would also strengthen the entire community. These guys could have continued to live as progamers while teaching the youngsters to NEVER replicate their wrongdoings because the repercussion would be catastrophic instead of dwelling in agony and possibly spread execrable rumors about the infrastructure.
I agree with your post entirely while maintaining my stance that savior is like a child molester trying to earn money through babysitting.
But a child molester doesn't possess the necessary skills to take care of an infant and is obviously bad at handling such tasks and everyone would already know the potential outcome. MJY, on the other hand should be competent enough to pass down his experience down the line. You and I both know that although he have done much atrocities, one cannot doubt his ability as a player. You wouldn't doubt him being adroit at the game. Therefore for that reason, I am almost sure that he will do a competent job in this category. While as, one will be close to 100% certain of the result of hiring a child molester in taking care of your child.
That's not the question. The question is whether or not it is ethical for him to do this, his ability to play/coach is not.
And I'm sure that there are many many child molesters (cough Sandusky, cough) who are more than capable of earning the trust of those around them by showing that they can be around children.
On March 30 2012 06:58 empty.bottle wrote: Can you change the title, everyone knows who Savior is... no need to keep talking about THAT issue.
Why? What he's doing is despicable, and the label adds context to the OP by succinctly capturing the essence of the controversy. People who already know may not need to be reminded of what he did, but people who are new to BW might think HEY AN EX-PRO TUTORING 1-ON-1 FOR $25/HR? AWESOME!!!
Child molester Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services >>>> Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services
on topic, I would pay 25 bucks to curse at him for an hour and a half
Y'know if the SK culture would be more forgiving at incident such as this one and didn't make such a big fuzz about it, the entire media would have centered their focus. And if there is as little as flagrant as possible, sponsors wouldn't probably catch too much attention for this event. Honestly if everyone said 'okay, as long as you promise to NEVER repeat the same mistake twice, we are willing to give you a second chance." The scene would be still relatively in-tact. The match fixing essentially killed Hite Sparkys since two of their promising players was gone (YarnC and Go.Go.). Same applies to ESTRO, they lost their frontal man of the team (UpMagic). If they could just gave them a condition to fix their mistakes, not only this won't impact the E-sport too negatively, it would also strengthen the entire community. These guys could have continued to live as progamers while teaching the youngsters to NEVER replicate their wrongdoings because the repercussion would be catastrophic instead of dwelling in agony and possibly spread execrable rumors about the infrastructure.
I agree with your post entirely while maintaining my stance that savior is like a child molester trying to earn money through babysitting.
But a child molester doesn't possess the necessary skills to take care of an infant and is obviously bad at handling such tasks and everyone would already know the potential outcome. MJY, on the other hand should be competent enough to pass down his experience down the line. You and I both know that although he have done much atrocities, one cannot doubt his ability as a player. You wouldn't doubt him being adroit at the game. Therefore for that reason, I am almost sure that he will do a competent job in this category. While as, one will be close to 100% certain of the result of hiring a child molester in taking care of your child.
To me, it's an issue of principle, so even if it were Flash coaching BW for $25/hr, my answer would be a resounding NO if he had played an integral role in the match fixing scandal and barely showed any sign of repentance afterwards.
That's quite the tarnished reputation discount Savior is giving. If you can speak Korean and you don't really have any moral objections to the whole issue, getting lessons from the most dominant Zerg player ever at such a low low price is a steal.
I wonder if it weren't for streaming or now coaching lessons, how does Savior support himself? His reputation is tarnished, and I doubt many companies are willing to hire him.
On March 30 2012 06:58 empty.bottle wrote: Can you change the title, everyone knows who Savior is... no need to keep talking about THAT issue.
Why? What he's doing is despicable, and the label adds context to the OP by succinctly capturing the essence of the controversy. People who already know may not need to be reminded of what he did, but people who are new to BW might think HEY AN EX-PRO TUTORING 1-ON-1 FOR $25/HR? AWESOME!!!
Child molester Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services >>>> Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services
on topic, I would pay 25 bucks to curse at him for an hour and a half
Y'know if the SK culture would be more forgiving at incident such as this one and didn't make such a big fuzz about it, the entire media would have centered their focus. And if there is as little as flagrant as possible, sponsors wouldn't probably catch too much attention for this event. Honestly if everyone said 'okay, as long as you promise to NEVER repeat the same mistake twice, we are willing to give you a second chance." The scene would be still relatively in-tact. The match fixing essentially killed Hite Sparkys since two of their promising players was gone (YarnC and Go.Go.). Same applies to ESTRO, they lost their frontal man of the team (UpMagic). If they could just gave them a condition to fix their mistakes, not only this won't impact the E-sport too negatively, it would also strengthen the entire community. These guys could have continued to live as progamers while teaching the youngsters to NEVER replicate their wrongdoings because the repercussion would be catastrophic instead of dwelling in agony and possibly spread execrable rumors about the infrastructure.
I agree with your post entirely while maintaining my stance that savior is like a child molester trying to earn money through babysitting.
But a child molester doesn't possess the necessary skills to take care of an infant and is obviously bad at handling such tasks and everyone would already know the potential outcome. MJY, on the other hand should be competent enough to pass down his experience down the line. You and I both know that although he have done much atrocities, one cannot doubt his ability as a player. You wouldn't doubt him being adroit at the game. Therefore for that reason, I am almost sure that he will do a competent job in this category. While as, one will be close to 100% certain of the result of hiring a child molester in taking care of your child.
That's not the question. The question is whether or not it is ethical for him to do this, his ability to play/coach is not.
And I'm sure that there are many many child molesters (cough Sandusky, cough) who are more than capable of earning the trust of those around them by showing that they can be around children.
Well, after the man got exposed to the general public, I bet that nobody would be dumb enough to permit him babysitting am I right? He earned the trust because the victims didn't know what is he capable of.
On March 30 2012 06:58 empty.bottle wrote: Can you change the title, everyone knows who Savior is... no need to keep talking about THAT issue.
Why? What he's doing is despicable, and the label adds context to the OP by succinctly capturing the essence of the controversy. People who already know may not need to be reminded of what he did, but people who are new to BW might think HEY AN EX-PRO TUTORING 1-ON-1 FOR $25/HR? AWESOME!!!
Child molester Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services >>>> Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services
on topic, I would pay 25 bucks to curse at him for an hour and a half
Y'know if the SK culture would be more forgiving at incident such as this one and didn't make such a big fuzz about it, the entire media would have centered their focus. And if there is as little as flagrant as possible, sponsors wouldn't probably catch too much attention for this event. Honestly if everyone said 'okay, as long as you promise to NEVER repeat the same mistake twice, we are willing to give you a second chance." The scene would be still relatively in-tact. The match fixing essentially killed Hite Sparkys since two of their promising players was gone (YarnC and Go.Go.). Same applies to ESTRO, they lost their frontal man of the team (UpMagic). If they could just gave them a condition to fix their mistakes, not only this won't impact the E-sport too negatively, it would also strengthen the entire community. These guys could have continued to live as progamers while teaching the youngsters to NEVER replicate their wrongdoings because the repercussion would be catastrophic instead of dwelling in agony and possibly spread execrable rumors about the infrastructure.
I agree with your post entirely while maintaining my stance that savior is like a child molester trying to earn money through babysitting.
But a child molester doesn't possess the necessary skills to take care of an infant and is obviously bad at handling such tasks and everyone would already know the potential outcome. MJY, on the other hand should be competent enough to pass down his experience down the line. You and I both know that although he have done much atrocities, one cannot doubt his ability as a player. You wouldn't doubt him being adroit at the game. Therefore for that reason, I am almost sure that he will do a competent job in this category. While as, one will be close to 100% certain of the result of hiring a child molester in taking care of your child.
To me, it's an issue of principle, so even if it were Flash coaching BW for $25/hr, my answer would be a resounding NO if he had played an integral role in the match fixing scandal and barely showed any sign of repentance afterwards.
I am just saying that it is not up to us in deciding what he can and what he cannot do. It is his life. If people are willing to pay for the tuition, we have no right to judge them.
On March 30 2012 06:58 empty.bottle wrote: Can you change the title, everyone knows who Savior is... no need to keep talking about THAT issue.
Why? What he's doing is despicable, and the label adds context to the OP by succinctly capturing the essence of the controversy. People who already know may not need to be reminded of what he did, but people who are new to BW might think HEY AN EX-PRO TUTORING 1-ON-1 FOR $25/HR? AWESOME!!!
Child molester Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services >>>> Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services
on topic, I would pay 25 bucks to curse at him for an hour and a half
Y'know if the SK culture would be more forgiving at incident such as this one and didn't make such a big fuzz about it, the entire media would have centered their focus. And if there is as little as flagrant as possible, sponsors wouldn't probably catch too much attention for this event. Honestly if everyone said 'okay, as long as you promise to NEVER repeat the same mistake twice, we are willing to give you a second chance." The scene would be still relatively in-tact. The match fixing essentially killed Hite Sparkys since two of their promising players was gone (YarnC and Go.Go.). Same applies to ESTRO, they lost their frontal man of the team (UpMagic). If they could just gave them a condition to fix their mistakes, not only this won't impact the E-sport too negatively, it would also strengthen the entire community. These guys could have continued to live as progamers while teaching the youngsters to NEVER replicate their wrongdoings because the repercussion would be catastrophic instead of dwelling in agony and possibly spread execrable rumors about the infrastructure.
I agree with your post entirely while maintaining my stance that savior is like a child molester trying to earn money through babysitting.
But a child molester doesn't possess the necessary skills to take care of an infant and is obviously bad at handling such tasks and everyone would already know the potential outcome. MJY, on the other hand should be competent enough to pass down his experience down the line. You and I both know that although he have done much atrocities, one cannot doubt his ability as a player. You wouldn't doubt him being adroit at the game. Therefore for that reason, I am almost sure that he will do a competent job in this category. While as, one will be close to 100% certain of the result of hiring a child molester in taking care of your child.
To me, it's an issue of principle, so even if it were Flash coaching BW for $25/hr, my answer would be a resounding NO if he had played an integral role in the match fixing scandal and barely showed any sign of repentance afterwards.
I am just saying that it is not up to us in deciding what he can and what he cannot do. It is his life. If people are willing to pay for the tuition, we have no right to judge them.
I see your point, and I do not judge those who pay the fees. MATCH-FIXING-savior, on the other hand, I reserve the right to judge him for all of eternity for what he did. It's his life, but the way he lives disgusts me and I believe sets a bad precedent for young BW fans.
On March 30 2012 06:58 empty.bottle wrote: Can you change the title, everyone knows who Savior is... no need to keep talking about THAT issue.
Why? What he's doing is despicable, and the label adds context to the OP by succinctly capturing the essence of the controversy. People who already know may not need to be reminded of what he did, but people who are new to BW might think HEY AN EX-PRO TUTORING 1-ON-1 FOR $25/HR? AWESOME!!!
Child molester Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services >>>> Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services
on topic, I would pay 25 bucks to curse at him for an hour and a half
Y'know if the SK culture would be more forgiving at incident such as this one and didn't make such a big fuzz about it, the entire media would have centered their focus. And if there is as little as flagrant as possible, sponsors wouldn't probably catch too much attention for this event. Honestly if everyone said 'okay, as long as you promise to NEVER repeat the same mistake twice, we are willing to give you a second chance." The scene would be still relatively in-tact. The match fixing essentially killed Hite Sparkys since two of their promising players was gone (YarnC and Go.Go.). Same applies to ESTRO, they lost their frontal man of the team (UpMagic). If they could just gave them a condition to fix their mistakes, not only this won't impact the E-sport too negatively, it would also strengthen the entire community. These guys could have continued to live as progamers while teaching the youngsters to NEVER replicate their wrongdoings because the repercussion would be catastrophic instead of dwelling in agony and possibly spread execrable rumors about the infrastructure.
I agree with your post entirely while maintaining my stance that savior is like a child molester trying to earn money through babysitting.
But a child molester doesn't possess the necessary skills to take care of an infant and is obviously bad at handling such tasks and everyone would already know the potential outcome. MJY, on the other hand should be competent enough to pass down his experience down the line. You and I both know that although he have done much atrocities, one cannot doubt his ability as a player. You wouldn't doubt him being adroit at the game. Therefore for that reason, I am almost sure that he will do a competent job in this category. While as, one will be close to 100% certain of the result of hiring a child molester in taking care of your child.
To me, it's an issue of principle, so even if it were Flash coaching BW for $25/hr, my answer would be a resounding NO if he had played an integral role in the match fixing scandal and barely showed any sign of repentance afterwards.
What law can you get him on though? He did the crime and he's doing the time. This shouldn't be relevant. If you hate him then don't buy his lessons
On March 30 2012 08:35 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote: savor giving scbw lessons is like a hacker giving security advice, man thats so baaad. /irony
Hackers are routinely contracted by internet and software security companies, and internet and software companies in general, to test out their security and help patch loopholes.
Also, if the man wants to do some one versus one in order to pass along his skill, why shouldn't he? Savior was a ZvP genius back in the day, and it would be a shame to stop him from teaching other players that magic.
People need to kick someone when they're already down.... Its a shame. What savior did was bad, but he was a kid.. we shouldn't have such a zero tolerance policy and completely destroy a persons life, wasn't him being kicked out of BW competition and SC2 competitions enough?
On March 30 2012 06:58 empty.bottle wrote: Can you change the title, everyone knows who Savior is... no need to keep talking about THAT issue.
Why? What he's doing is despicable, and the label adds context to the OP by succinctly capturing the essence of the controversy. People who already know may not need to be reminded of what he did, but people who are new to BW might think HEY AN EX-PRO TUTORING 1-ON-1 FOR $25/HR? AWESOME!!!
Child molester Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services >>>> Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services
on topic, I would pay 25 bucks to curse at him for an hour and a half
Y'know if the SK culture would be more forgiving at incident such as this one and didn't make such a big fuzz about it, the entire media would have centered their focus. And if there is as little as flagrant as possible, sponsors wouldn't probably catch too much attention for this event. Honestly if everyone said 'okay, as long as you promise to NEVER repeat the same mistake twice, we are willing to give you a second chance." The scene would be still relatively in-tact. The match fixing essentially killed Hite Sparkys since two of their promising players was gone (YarnC and Go.Go.). Same applies to ESTRO, they lost their frontal man of the team (UpMagic). If they could just gave them a condition to fix their mistakes, not only this won't impact the E-sport too negatively, it would also strengthen the entire community. These guys could have continued to live as progamers while teaching the youngsters to NEVER replicate their wrongdoings because the repercussion would be catastrophic instead of dwelling in agony and possibly spread execrable rumors about the infrastructure.
I agree with your post entirely while maintaining my stance that savior is like a child molester trying to earn money through babysitting.
But a child molester doesn't possess the necessary skills to take care of an infant and is obviously bad at handling such tasks and everyone would already know the potential outcome. MJY, on the other hand should be competent enough to pass down his experience down the line. You and I both know that although he have done much atrocities, one cannot doubt his ability as a player. You wouldn't doubt him being adroit at the game. Therefore for that reason, I am almost sure that he will do a competent job in this category. While as, one will be close to 100% certain of the result of hiring a child molester in taking care of your child.
To me, it's an issue of principle, so even if it were Flash coaching BW for $25/hr, my answer would be a resounding NO if he had played an integral role in the match fixing scandal and barely showed any sign of repentance afterwards.
I am just saying that it is not up to us in deciding what he can and what he cannot do. It is his life. If people are willing to pay for the tuition, we have no right to judge them.
I see your point, and I do not judge those who pay the fees. MATCH-FIXING-savior, on the other hand, I reserve the right to judge him for all of eternity for what he did. It's his life, but the way he lives disgusts me and I believe sets a bad precedent for young BW fans.
I agree, but unlike you, I DO judge those who pay him fees. Anyone willing to pay for lessons from this devil has absolutely no respect for Starcraft, Brood War, Competition, or eSports.
Well IdrA one said if he could ever be coached by anyone it'd be sAviOr. One cannot argue the value of sAviOr's BW knowledge... but this is a effing joke. Damn you sAviOr TT_TT
On March 30 2012 08:42 VPCursed wrote: People need to kick someone when they're already down.... Its a shame. What savior did was bad, but he was a kid.. we shouldn't have such a zero tolerance policy and completely destroy a persons life, wasn't him being kicked out of BW competition and SC2 competitions enough?
23 year olds are still kids? Sweet. I guess that means I still have 4 years left on my get out of jail free card :D
On March 30 2012 08:16 ChoiSulli wrote: In Harry Potter terms this would be like getting magic lessons from the dark lord himself! xD
Except Savior's RTS skills are neutral, while evil wizards use evil kinds of magic.
One thing I wonder about, there seem to be so many people who want lessons... but the skill level of Savior is so high that most people probably could very well get what they need from someone else; while Savior's prime services would be truly fully useful only to exceptionally high level players / progamers.
Eg: If I were Jaedong or Soulkey, then I think I should be more interested in Savior's wisdom, than if I were D/C/B etc. Anyway, that raises the question why teaching BW isn't more popular in the community, if there are so many interested in getting paid lessons.
On March 30 2012 08:42 VPCursed wrote: People need to kick someone when they're already down.... Its a shame. What savior did was bad, but he was a kid.. we shouldn't have such a zero tolerance policy and completely destroy a persons life, wasn't him being kicked out of BW competition and SC2 competitions enough?
23 year olds are still kids? Sweet. I guess that means I still have 4 years left on my get out of jail free card :D
I wouldn't call him a kid, but most of the youth benefit stuff is until 25in my country (bank account, train tickets, ...), so I'd definitely give him some young and stupid bonus, especially as he was in a quite closed environment where you don't grow a lot of responsibility (provided home and food).
Man, when i just got into starcraft II, I then learned of the old SC1 days. I read all about saviour and was so impressed, he was just, he was Ma-bonjwa. He was so damn good, he made me truly question the limits that we put on SCII and how far i believe it can go, just looking at the innovation he had, the strategy, the pure perfection that his game embodied. This however? I understand he has to make a living, but it has come out that he, not only cheated for more money, but was also according OpticalShot was part of the downturn of the MSL. Truly an ironic name, Savior the man who saved zerg and then killed the MSL and lots of dreams of B teamers with his scandal. I just don't know what to think, He is probably my biggest idol when it comes to playing strategically sound (i play protoss in SCII so ofc i love all them protoss players). It comes down to one of two things, 1. he is too lazy to go back to school or isn't the brightest and is just cunning and therefore can't make a living at anything else, or 2. he knows there are still hardcore fans he can milk before his final goodbye, i can't tell which .
Yikes, from one of the highest paid and most regarded BW players to scratching around for cash by giving BW lessons at $25 an hour. I can help but feel sad for Savior.
But I'm a massive fanboy of his. I know he did wrong, but I still love him.
On March 30 2012 09:24 Paraietta wrote: Six hours with saviOr for the same price as one hour with idra? Oh my
18 hours of coaching with saviOr for the price of 1 hour of coaching with IdrA. $100 only gets you "practice" vs IdrA, its $300/hour for actual coaching lol.
To the people saying that the title needs to be changed, I just want to put it out there that I simply translated the title of the Korean article. If the mods still feel the need to change, I guess it can't be helped. I just wanted people to know that I didn't come up with the title or any of the sentiment expressed in the article.
On March 30 2012 06:58 empty.bottle wrote: Can you change the title, everyone knows who Savior is... no need to keep talking about THAT issue.
Why? What he's doing is despicable, and the label succinctly captures the essence of the controversy. People who already know may not need to be reminded of what he did, but people who are new to BW might think HEY AN EX-PRO TUTORING 1-ON-1 FOR $25/HR? AWESOME!!!
As a thread title, Child molester Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services >>>> Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services
On topic, I would pay 25 bucks to curse at MATCH-FIXING-savior for an hour and a half
I'm really curious. Are you really using that comparison for him or is this some sort of exaggeration from when the coach used this comparison before?
On March 30 2012 06:58 empty.bottle wrote: Can you change the title, everyone knows who Savior is... no need to keep talking about THAT issue.
Why? What he's doing is despicable, and the label adds context to the OP by succinctly capturing the essence of the controversy. People who already know may not need to be reminded of what he did, but people who are new to BW might think HEY AN EX-PRO TUTORING 1-ON-1 FOR $25/HR? AWESOME!!!
Child molester Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services >>>> Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services
on topic, I would pay 25 bucks to curse at him for an hour and a half
Y'know if the SK culture would be more forgiving at incident such as this one and didn't make such a big fuzz about it, the entire media would have centered their focus. And if there is as little as flagrant as possible, sponsors wouldn't probably catch too much attention for this event. Honestly if everyone said 'okay, as long as you promise to NEVER repeat the same mistake twice, we are willing to give you a second chance." The scene would be still relatively in-tact. The match fixing essentially killed Hite Sparkys since two of their promising players was gone (YarnC and Go.Go.). Same applies to ESTRO, they lost their frontal man of the team (UpMagic). If they could just gave them a condition to fix their mistakes, not only this won't impact the E-sport too negatively, it would also strengthen the entire community. These guys could have continued to live as progamers while teaching the youngsters to NEVER replicate their wrongdoings because the repercussion would be catastrophic instead of dwelling in agony and possibly spread execrable rumors about the infrastructure.
I agree with your post entirely while maintaining my stance that savior is like a child molester trying to earn money through babysitting.
But a child molester doesn't possess the necessary skills to take care of an infant and is obviously bad at handling such tasks and everyone would already know the potential outcome. MJY, on the other hand should be competent enough to pass down his experience down the line. You and I both know that although he have done much atrocities, one cannot doubt his ability as a player. You wouldn't doubt him being adroit at the game. Therefore for that reason, I am almost sure that he will do a competent job in this category. While as, one will be close to 100% certain of the result of hiring a child molester in taking care of your child.
To me, it's an issue of principle, so even if it were Flash coaching BW for $25/hr, my answer would be a resounding NO if he had played an integral role in the match fixing scandal and barely showed any sign of repentance afterwards.
This post has made me understand more as to why others are way more angrier with Savior than I am. Because if Flash had played a role, I would be way more angry with him than Savior Just some thoughts of mine below~ + Show Spoiler +
Also I wonder why he's charging so cheap.. does he need money? Or has he lowered his price that low because he knows how much people hate him that they wouldn't even dare to pay more than what he's asking? I'll be even more disgusted if he cranks his prices up once he knows he has got a good amount of customers.
Ex-progamer Savior who was permanently banned for participating in match fixing is starting Starcraft lessons.
Savior who participated in match fixing in Starcraft was banned permanently by the Korean-eSports association on the 7th of June 2010 and was sentenced to 1 year imprisonment, 2 years probation on the 22nd of October 2010. His probation ends on the 22nd of June this year.
Savior, banned from progaming, started an internet stream in March last year and even obtained a personal sponsor in November. Since then, as criticisms began to surface on his Afreeca page and in the chat, starting January this year, only those who pay a fee to join his fanclub are allowed to post on the forum.
If that's not enough information about Savior and the Match fixing scandal, i don't know how many is.
I dont blame the OP, he just translated the original arcticle, I just found the title too harsh, but w/e i guess that's my personal opinion.
On March 30 2012 09:58 RezChi wrote: Fuck this asshole. Ruins Brood-War and still tries to make money off of it.
He will be one of the progamers name and carrer that I'll remember in 25 years. For many people he didn't ruined BW but he made it.
Then take off the MBCGame thing off from your signature please.
/Ugh.
You disgust me. He had his punishment. You want to coerce everyone into punish him even more? Who are you? The worlds judge?
Have you ever worked/interacted with people who have a criminal background?
Do you realize that Savior is actually doing something very benefical to the community by giving lessons, he could breed the a new generation of progamers.
It's sad that he seems to have no other way of making a living other than from starcraft. If so then I don't get why he doesn't just start practicing sc2.
On March 30 2012 10:50 zulu_nation8 wrote: It's sad that he seems to have no other way of making a living other than from starcraft. If so then I don't get why he doesn't just start practicing sc2.
he cant even play in sc2 tourneys (kespa and gom banned him from everything). well that is in korea.....but foreign scene???
On March 30 2012 10:50 zulu_nation8 wrote: It's sad that he seems to have no other way of making a living other than from starcraft. If so then I don't get why he doesn't just start practicing sc2.
he cant even play in sc2 tourneys (kespa and gom banned him from everything). well that is in korea.....but foreign scene???
Not even foregin scene since the taint from the match-fixing scandal would follow him.
On March 30 2012 10:50 zulu_nation8 wrote: It's sad that he seems to have no other way of making a living other than from starcraft. If so then I don't get why he doesn't just start practicing sc2.
he cant even play in sc2 tourneys (kespa and gom banned him from everything). well that is in korea.....but foreign scene???
Not even foregin scene since the taint from the match-fixing scandal would follow him.
most definitely it will follow him but at least he has a chance, whereas in korea he is actually banned banned.
I think people are overreacting when they say they literally hate Savior, and seem to imply that he's a terrible person. Sure, he's greedy, and he drew in players like Upmagic who i think would've ended up as incredible players. Seriously, though, match fixing isn't nearly the worst thing that a progamer can do; Savior never cheated or physically harmed another person. It's true that he betrayed his fans, but he was punished for it. He was taken out of games, sent to the B team, humiliated, and convicted.
Savior was the one who showed zergs how to apply one's race's advantages in order to exploit certain aspects of the tournament map pools, something that Terrans had been doing for awhile. If it weren't for Savior, perhaps Bisu wouldn't have needed to adapt a new style to deal with Zerg, and Protoss players would still be doing their terrible one base zealot timings.
I know I sound like I'm trying to justify Savior's mistakes, but I truly believe that he contributed a great deal to the game, and to take the one thing that he truly spent the effort to master, SC:BW, is a punishment far beyond what he did.
On March 30 2012 09:58 RezChi wrote: Fuck this asshole. Ruins Brood-War and still tries to make money off of it.
He will be one of the progamers name and carrer that I'll remember in 25 years. For many people he didn't ruined BW but he made it.
Then take off the MBCGame thing off from your signature please.
/Ugh.
Do you realize that Savior is actually doing something very benefical to the community by giving lessons, he could breed the a new generation of progamers.
Yes..he's doing something beneficial to the community by giving lessons..and charging for them...for a new generation of sc1 progamers...that have no place to play because of a scandal...that he was obviously not a part of... </sarcasm> If he wanted to "breed" a new generation of progamers he'd wouldn't be charging for lessons...he wouldn't be blacklisting anybody for sharing the vods..he wouldn't make you pay to join his fanclub or pay to follow him...and most importantly he wouldn't have done what he did with the scandal.
On March 30 2012 10:45 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote: You disgust me. He had his punishment. You want to coerce everyone into punish him even more? Who are you? The worlds judge?
On March 30 2012 11:08 Infinite Lurker wrote: I think people are overreacting when they say they literally hate Savior, and seem to imply that he's a terrible person. Sure, he's greedy, and he drew in players like Upmagic who i think would've ended up as incredible players. Seriously, though, match fixing isn't nearly the worst thing that a progamer can do; Savior never cheated or physically harmed another person. It's true that he betrayed his fans, but he was punished for it. He was taken out of games, sent to the B team, humiliated, and convicted.
Savior was the one who showed zergs how to apply one's race's advantages in order to exploit certain aspects of the tournament map pools, something that Terrans had been doing for awhile. If it weren't for Savior, perhaps Bisu wouldn't have needed to adapt a new style to deal with Zerg, and Protoss players would still be doing their terrible one base zealot timings.
I know I sound like I'm trying to justify Savior's mistakes, but I truly believe that he contributed a great deal to the game, and to take the one thing that he truly spent the effort to master, SC:BW, is a punishment far beyond what he did.
He also shattered, stomped, and pissed on the hopes and dreams of millions of nerds and almost singlehandedly destroyed BW eSports forever.
Some bloodstains don't wash off no matter how hard you scrub.
On March 30 2012 11:08 Infinite Lurker wrote: I think people are overreacting when they say they literally hate Savior, and seem to imply that he's a terrible person. Sure, he's greedy, and he drew in players like Upmagic who i think would've ended up as incredible players. Seriously, though, match fixing isn't nearly the worst thing that a progamer can do; Savior never cheated or physically harmed another person. It's true that he betrayed his fans, but he was punished for it. He was taken out of games, sent to the B team, humiliated, and convicted.
Savior was the one who showed zergs how to apply one's race's advantages in order to exploit certain aspects of the tournament map pools, something that Terrans had been doing for awhile. If it weren't for Savior, perhaps Bisu wouldn't have needed to adapt a new style to deal with Zerg, and Protoss players would still be doing their terrible one base zealot timings.
I know I sound like I'm trying to justify Savior's mistakes, but I truly believe that he contributed a great deal to the game, and to take the one thing that he truly spent the effort to master, SC:BW, is a punishment far beyond what he did.
I don't understand these people that say "he shouldn't try to make money off of sc anymore". That makes no sense. The guy has a passion for the game, it's what he wants to do now and forever, why force him to get a job somewhere else when he can live from his passion?
On March 30 2012 11:28 Selkie wrote: I don't understand these people that say "he shouldn't try to make money off of sc anymore". That makes no sense. The guy has a passion for the game, it's what he wants to do now and forever, why force him to get a job somewhere else when he can live from his passion?
I think you are mistaking 'Passion' for 'Exploitation'
On March 30 2012 11:08 Infinite Lurker wrote: I think people are overreacting when they say they literally hate Savior, and seem to imply that he's a terrible person. Sure, he's greedy, and he drew in players like Upmagic who i think would've ended up as incredible players. Seriously, though, match fixing isn't nearly the worst thing that a progamer can do; Savior never cheated or physically harmed another person. It's true that he betrayed his fans, but he was punished for it. He was taken out of games, sent to the B team, humiliated, and convicted.
Savior was the one who showed zergs how to apply one's race's advantages in order to exploit certain aspects of the tournament map pools, something that Terrans had been doing for awhile. If it weren't for Savior, perhaps Bisu wouldn't have needed to adapt a new style to deal with Zerg, and Protoss players would still be doing their terrible one base zealot timings.
I know I sound like I'm trying to justify Savior's mistakes, but I truly believe that he contributed a great deal to the game, and to take the one thing that he truly spent the effort to master, SC:BW, is a punishment far beyond what he did.
He also shattered, stomped, and pissed on the hopes and dreams of millions of nerds and almost singlehandedly destroyed BW eSports forever.
Some bloodstains don't wash off no matter how hard you scrub.
Savior didn't destroy Brood War. Blizzard and Gretech destroyed Brood war.
Good for him. If brood war makes him happy and people want to pay him to share knowledge that he gained by working his ass off, then he deserves it regardless of past mistakes.
On March 30 2012 11:08 Infinite Lurker wrote: I think people are overreacting when they say they literally hate Savior, and seem to imply that he's a terrible person. Sure, he's greedy, and he drew in players like Upmagic who i think would've ended up as incredible players. Seriously, though, match fixing isn't nearly the worst thing that a progamer can do; Savior never cheated or physically harmed another person. It's true that he betrayed his fans, but he was punished for it. He was taken out of games, sent to the B team, humiliated, and convicted.
Savior was the one who showed zergs how to apply one's race's advantages in order to exploit certain aspects of the tournament map pools, something that Terrans had been doing for awhile. If it weren't for Savior, perhaps Bisu wouldn't have needed to adapt a new style to deal with Zerg, and Protoss players would still be doing their terrible one base zealot timings.
I know I sound like I'm trying to justify Savior's mistakes, but I truly believe that he contributed a great deal to the game, and to take the one thing that he truly spent the effort to master, SC:BW, is a punishment far beyond what he did.
He also shattered, stomped, and pissed on the hopes and dreams of millions of nerds and almost singlehandedly destroyed BW eSports forever.
Some bloodstains don't wash off no matter how hard you scrub.
Savior didn't destroy Brood War. Blizzard and Gretech destroyed Brood war.
Yeah, he just almost destroyed the BW scene reputation. That lawsuit, on the other hand, was the nail to the coffin. I still damn Blizz til this day!
On March 30 2012 11:08 Infinite Lurker wrote: I think people are overreacting when they say they literally hate Savior, and seem to imply that he's a terrible person. Sure, he's greedy, and he drew in players like Upmagic who i think would've ended up as incredible players. Seriously, though, match fixing isn't nearly the worst thing that a progamer can do; Savior never cheated or physically harmed another person. It's true that he betrayed his fans, but he was punished for it. He was taken out of games, sent to the B team, humiliated, and convicted.
Savior was the one who showed zergs how to apply one's race's advantages in order to exploit certain aspects of the tournament map pools, something that Terrans had been doing for awhile. If it weren't for Savior, perhaps Bisu wouldn't have needed to adapt a new style to deal with Zerg, and Protoss players would still be doing their terrible one base zealot timings.
I know I sound like I'm trying to justify Savior's mistakes, but I truly believe that he contributed a great deal to the game, and to take the one thing that he truly spent the effort to master, SC:BW, is a punishment far beyond what he did.
He also shattered, stomped, and pissed on the hopes and dreams of millions of nerds and almost singlehandedly destroyed BW eSports forever.
Some bloodstains don't wash off no matter how hard you scrub.
Savior didn't destroy Brood War. Blizzard and Gretech destroyed Brood war.
Maybe its because I only got into the BW scene right after the match-fixing took place and the effect of it didn't really take place, but I think the guy's learned his lesson. And even if he hasn't he's not really in a position to harm anyone else. No one can deny he's a SICK player, these lessons can only help those who take them and help him make a living the best, and probably only, way he knows how: playing the game he loves.
I understand the hate but seriously you all just need to straight up ignore what Savior does. It's just really pointless to dwell on what he does. He really fucked up. But if you all hate him you shouldn't pay attention to him. More shit you bring up, more publicity for Savior. I don't see why we have to constantly bring up such a controversial topic in which there will always be such an extreme split in opinions.
On March 30 2012 06:58 empty.bottle wrote: Can you change the title, everyone knows who Savior is... no need to keep talking about THAT issue.
Why? What he's doing is despicable, and the label succinctly captures the essence of the controversy. People who already know may not need to be reminded of what he did, but people who are new to BW might think HEY AN EX-PRO TUTORING 1-ON-1 FOR $25/HR? AWESOME!!!
As a thread title, Child molester Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services >>>> Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services
On topic, I would pay 25 bucks to curse at MATCH-FIXING-savior for an hour and a half
What Savior did is nowhere on the level of child molestation so that's a terrible attempt at a comparison.
so he is not banned anymore after june this year?? or does it mean something else? he should really start sc2 IF he is allowed to partiicpate again after that date.
On March 30 2012 12:09 [N3O]r3d33m3r wrote: so he is not banned anymore after june this year?? or does it mean something else? he should really start sc2 IF he is allowed to partiicpate again after that date.
On March 30 2012 09:58 RezChi wrote: Fuck this asshole. Ruins Brood-War and still tries to make money off of it.
He will be one of the progamers name and carrer that I'll remember in 25 years. For many people he didn't ruined BW but he made it.
Then take off the MBCGame thing off from your signature please.
/Ugh.
You disgust me. He had his punishment. You want to coerce everyone into punish him even more? Who are you? The worlds judge?
Have you ever worked/interacted with people who have a criminal background?
Do you realize that Savior is actually doing something very benefical to the community by giving lessons, he could breed the a new generation of progamers.
You don't seem to understand how much the match fixing scandal hurt the scene. Companies do not want to sponsor a game involved in a match fixing scandal. It's by far the main reason teams have disbanded, MBCGame became a music channel, and OSL struggles to find sponsors.
Yes he does have criminal record, but he totally deserves it. I don't even see how giving lessons is beneficial, it's just an arrogant provocation after what happened. "Hey guys, your team disbanded ? That sucks, sorry to hear that ! Well, I'm still making money off this game :trollface:"
On March 30 2012 09:58 RezChi wrote: Fuck this asshole. Ruins Brood-War and still tries to make money off of it.
He will be one of the progamers name and carrer that I'll remember in 25 years. For many people he didn't ruined BW but he made it.
Then take off the MBCGame thing off from your signature please.
/Ugh.
You disgust me. He had his punishment. You want to coerce everyone into punish him even more? Who are you? The worlds judge?
Have you ever worked/interacted with people who have a criminal background?
Do you realize that Savior is actually doing something very benefical to the community by giving lessons, he could breed the a new generation of progamers.
Beneficial? Sure, benefit from teaching all those kids to have hopes of becoming a pro-BW player.
Oh wait, while raising those kids, lets not forget to mention what he also did to destroy those hopes of kids who wanted to become a pro-player by downsizing the scene into 1 studio and 8 teams. Let's also mention the fact that BW has been getting less sponsorship requests nowadays, and OGN/KeSPA actually has hard time finding sponsors due to the bad image of e-Sports caused by those "incidents"
If I knew that the day I last sat in MBCGame was going to be the last Proleague game being held in LOOX studio with full attendee, then I would've savored every single second of it. Thanks to people who are "doing something very beneficial to the community by giving lessons" and "breed a new generation of progamers", I regret getting out of the studio without taking few extra photos for myself.
If people in this community had even a slight clue about what happened in the Korean BW scene with this particular incident, they know that Savior incident actually mattered in closure of MBCGame. If you know about the match fixing then still choose to support Savior or this lesson, that's fine by me because sometimes, you can't let go of your idol. However, don't act like you actually care for the closure of MBCGame if you still support his cause.
I did not follow Brood War. I know sAviOr only as the Zerg bonjwa that revolutionized the way the race was played. Everyone has their own opinions about the man.
Many StarCraft 2 players that happened to flip through Brood War's history will probably have this opinion of sAviOr. The old guards of Brood War that are antagonizing the newcomers should realize they're sort of acting in oppression. You have very strong opinions, yes be vocal about it. But don't force your views on other. sAviOr already had judicial decisions levied against him.
Someone called the thread title biased... Biased indeed, but still true, so it's fair game. It's not even opinion: he did fix matches (and even strong-armed Hwasin!).
Hey, I have no problems with this. The S. Korean judicial system has ruled, and that's that. We can be bitter (and I am) but he can do what he wants.
The reason he has no takers (yet), is because with the horrible rumors about the BW scene lately, and the immense multitude of, and popularity of, other games makes being a good BW player less desirable than it was, say, 2 years ago.
Even though Flash gushed over his skills on bnet, Savior hasn't posted decent results in years. It's hard to believe he threw all of those games that were losses. It was likely no more than ten. So the rest were just him losing. So I feel like most of the things he could teach you are outdated in regards to the highest level. Certainly good enough to get you a high ranking in ICCUP, or do well in team tourneys, which is the most practical use for a customer receiving lessons, but your money can used for better things.
And since he threw games for money, I see nothing stopping him half-assing lessons for money. Let the buyer beware.
If this is the reaction, why bother having a legal system? If society doesn't actually give a person second chances and don't reintegrate them back into society, why bother even having prison or a criminal record? If a man shop lifted while being a grocery clerk and was legally punished for it, sure you would be wary about having him as a grocery clerk again, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't even allow him to enter a shop, set up his own shop, or try to make a living through retail sales EVER AGAIN. Savior lost all credibility as a pro-gamer, but how does that even interfere with his integrity as a BW teacher? If you are wary of it then don't make the purchase and don't encourage the purchase.
Pointing out a historical fact has no moral significance if you had no influence on the matter, it has personal, historical or academic significance but that's it. You aren't a more moral or upstanding person for pointing out someone's past mistakes, just as you aren't less moral or upstanding for pointing out someone's past achievements. All I'm seeing is someone who spent his educational career time playing professional BW, who was good at BW, made a mistake, was punished for it, and now is offering to coach for his sole / some additional income probably because it's the only skill he has available at his disposal with out restarting his entire educational career 10 years late.
Interesting how the article is trying hard to influence the readers' opinions as well as presenting facts. They're even leaving out the reason why he chose to keep his service behind two subscriptions to make him look like like even more of an asshole than he was convicted of being.
Can't afford to let him get popular again, I suppose.
I think if he can only do this with koreans he won't be very successful, but if he has a translator and can open up to foreign options, then he could make some serious money off of this!
The post states that 'Users who record the lessons and shares them will be added to the blacklist' to prevent users who try to obtain free lessons.
Funny how he has no tolerance for people cheating the system.
Starcraft 2 got you down? Has a lack of MSL made you a prisoner to cable television? Then call sAviOr right now and he'll sell you his VODs teaching you how to 3-hatch for a small fee of $99.99 per lesson! But wait! There's more! Call in the next 30 minutes and he'll even throw in a discount lesson! Don't speak Korean? No problem! THE bonjwa himself will come to your house with milkis and teach you all the hot 2006 strategies to help you improve your play to make you A+ on ICCup! This is an offer you cannot pass up! Don't wait! Call now!
The post states that 'Users who record the lessons and shares them will be added to the blacklist' to prevent users who try to obtain free lessons.
Funny how he has no tolerance for people cheating the system.
Starcraft 2 got you down? Has a lack of MSL made you a prisoner to cable television? Then call sAviOr right now and he'll sell you his VODs teaching you how to 3-hatch for a small fee of $99.99 per lesson! But wait! There's more! Call in the next 30 minutes and he'll even throw in a discount lesson! Don't speak Korean? No problem! THE bonjwa himself will come to your house with milkis and teach you all the hot 2006 strategies to help you improve your play to make you A+ on ICCup! This is an offer you cannot pass up! Don't wait! Call now!
Prices may vary. Milkis not available. Some restrictions may apply.
On March 30 2012 09:58 RezChi wrote: Fuck this asshole. Ruins Brood-War and still tries to make money off of it.
He will be one of the progamers name and carrer that I'll remember in 25 years. For many people he didn't ruined BW but he made it.
Then take off the MBCGame thing off from your signature please.
/Ugh.
You disgust me. He had his punishment. You want to coerce everyone into punish him even more? Who are you? The worlds judge?
Have you ever worked/interacted with people who have a criminal background?
Do you realize that Savior is actually doing something very benefical to the community by giving lessons, he could breed the a new generation of progamers.
You don't seem to understand how much the match fixing scandal hurt the scene. Companies do not want to sponsor a game involved in a match fixing scandal. It's by far the main reason teams have disbanded, MBCGame became a music channel, and OSL struggles to find sponsors.
Yes he does have criminal record, but he totally deserves it. I don't even see how giving lessons is beneficial, it's just an arrogant provocation after what happened. "Hey guys, your team disbanded ? That sucks, sorry to hear that ! Well, I'm still making money off this game :trollface:"
Oh, companys do not want to sponsor a game with match fixing? aaah, that is why there is 0 sponsors for scbw. oh wait, no there is still a proleague. must be all fake sponsors, huh?
It is just an arrogant provocation? Do you know Diego Armando Maradona? He was caught doping, but him beeing the coach for Argentina was just an arrogant provocation, right?
On March 30 2012 09:58 RezChi wrote: Fuck this asshole. Ruins Brood-War and still tries to make money off of it.
He will be one of the progamers name and carrer that I'll remember in 25 years. For many people he didn't ruined BW but he made it.
Then take off the MBCGame thing off from your signature please.
/Ugh.
You disgust me. He had his punishment. You want to coerce everyone into punish him even more? Who are you? The worlds judge?
Have you ever worked/interacted with people who have a criminal background?
Do you realize that Savior is actually doing something very benefical to the community by giving lessons, he could breed the a new generation of progamers.
Beneficial? Sure, benefit from teaching all those kids to have hopes of becoming a pro-BW player.
Oh wait, while raising those kids, lets not forget to mention what he also did to destroy those hopes of kids who wanted to become a pro-player by downsizing the scene into 1 studio and 8 teams. Let's also mention the fact that BW has been getting less sponsorship requests nowadays, and OGN/KeSPA actually has hard time finding sponsors due to the bad image of e-Sports caused by those "incidents"
If I knew that the day I last sat in MBCGame was going to be the last Proleague game being held in LOOX studio with full attendee, then I would've savored every single second of it. Thanks to people who are "doing something very beneficial to the community by giving lessons" and "breed a new generation of progamers", I regret getting out of the studio without taking few extra photos for myself.
If people in this community had even a slight clue about what happened in the Korean BW scene with this particular incident, they know that Savior incident actually mattered in closure of MBCGame. If you know about the match fixing then still choose to support Savior or this lesson, that's fine by me because sometimes, you can't let go of your idol. However, don't act like you actually care for the closure of MBCGame if you still support his cause.
The match fixing happened 2 years ago and now the sponsors are abandoning scbw because of it. That some massive lag right there, can you explain that lag to me? Is it really the bad image of esports? Is SC2 included in that esport? Do they also suffer from the match fixing? I mean, it has to because savior killed esports single handedly according to you.
Is it really because of people giving brood war lessons that you can't go to the LOOX studio anymore, or is it rather because of people throwing games? Oh wait, for you the action doesn't matter, it's all about the name.
Can you give me sources for the direct correlation of the closing of MBCGame and the match fixing (which is not entirely saviors fault)?
Who are you to tell people what they care about? Worlds judge again? I care about the closure of MBCGame, it fucking sucks. But I have an entire different view about punishment of people than you. I value actions way higher than names. Who are you to tell me that I'm wrong and you are right?
On March 29 2012 23:06 GTR wrote: 30k won is quite a lot (compared to the other afreeca bjs) players like eagle/anytime do it for 10-15k won p/hr iirc. that being said, you are learning from probably the greatest strategic zerg ever to play bw.
On March 30 2012 11:08 Infinite Lurker wrote: I think people are overreacting when they say they literally hate Savior, and seem to imply that he's a terrible person. Sure, he's greedy, and he drew in players like Upmagic who i think would've ended up as incredible players. Seriously, though, match fixing isn't nearly the worst thing that a progamer can do; Savior never cheated or physically harmed another person. It's true that he betrayed his fans, but he was punished for it. He was taken out of games, sent to the B team, humiliated, and convicted.
Savior was the one who showed zergs how to apply one's race's advantages in order to exploit certain aspects of the tournament map pools, something that Terrans had been doing for awhile. If it weren't for Savior, perhaps Bisu wouldn't have needed to adapt a new style to deal with Zerg, and Protoss players would still be doing their terrible one base zealot timings.
I know I sound like I'm trying to justify Savior's mistakes, but I truly believe that he contributed a great deal to the game, and to take the one thing that he truly spent the effort to master, SC:BW, is a punishment far beyond what he did.
He also shattered, stomped, and pissed on the hopes and dreams of millions of nerds and almost singlehandedly destroyed BW eSports forever.
Some bloodstains don't wash off no matter how hard you scrub.
Savior didn't destroy Brood War. Blizzard and Gretech destroyed Brood war.
On March 30 2012 12:02 Forester wrote: Maybe its because I only got into the BW scene right after the match-fixing took place and the effect of it didn't really take place, but I think the guy's learned his lesson. And even if he hasn't he's not really in a position to harm anyone else. No one can deny he's a SICK player, these lessons can only help those who take them and help him make a living the best, and probably only, way he knows how: playing the game he loves.
And I got into the BW scene WAY after the match fixing scandal. This guy still hasn't learnt his lessons. Yes, he's a pretty sick player, the morally sick type. And I truly thinks he doesn't love the game at all. It's the money that he loves, he's really corrupted.
On March 30 2012 06:58 empty.bottle wrote: Can you change the title, everyone knows who Savior is... no need to keep talking about THAT issue.
Why? What he's doing is despicable, and the label succinctly captures the essence of the controversy. People who already know may not need to be reminded of what he did, but people who are new to BW might think HEY AN EX-PRO TUTORING 1-ON-1 FOR $25/HR? AWESOME!!!
As a thread title, Child molester Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services >>>> Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services
On topic, I would pay 25 bucks to curse at MATCH-FIXING-savior for an hour and a half
You and me both. I always knew something was off with IPXZerg. I didn't like his character back then and I don't like his character now. He really did leave a black eye on the organizations and I guess it should be no surprise that money dried up fairly quickly when they found it to be true. Just one of many factors in the equation, but something we cannot overlook especially in that culture.
On March 30 2012 12:02 Forester wrote: Maybe its because I only got into the BW scene right after the match-fixing took place and the effect of it didn't really take place, but I think the guy's learned his lesson. And even if he hasn't he's not really in a position to harm anyone else. No one can deny he's a SICK player, these lessons can only help those who take them and help him make a living the best, and probably only, way he knows how: playing the game he loves.
And I got into the BW scene WAY after the match fixing scandal. This guy still hasn't learnt his lessons. Yes, he's a pretty sick player, the morally sick type. And I truly thinks he doesn't love the game at all. It's the money that he loves, he's really corrupted.
To be fair,
The boy doesn't have much to fall back on so I can understand his reasoning behind this.
I must interject: progamers do NOT do this for the love of the game. They get paid. In the case of Nada, Savior, and now Flash, some got paid amazingly well. Whether it was a passion that turned into a profession, or just a profitable hobby, our BW heroes played for the money. Let's not talk about love or passion. Let's be honest. Savior played BW for money, fixed games for money (after he couldn't win any more tournaments), and is now offering lessons for money. On this particular point, I have no objection.
Yes, what he did was crappy. But sAviOr is a truly great player and a true bonjwa. No one can take how good he is/was away from him. I am happy to see this and I am sure some people will really enjoy having a SC:BW legend give them lessons, especially for this low of a price. I see higher prices from SC2 players who aren't nearly as skilled as sAviOr. And yes, even though he did a shitty thing and he may still be a shitty person, I still have respect and gratitude for sAviOr, as a player, out of true admiration for the skills he has in the game and the crazy good games and times he has shown us in the past. He was my favorite player for a long time and I thoroughly enjoyed watching his matches up until the point where he started to throw them.
On March 30 2012 09:58 RezChi wrote: Fuck this asshole. Ruins Brood-War and still tries to make money off of it.
He will be one of the progamers name and carrer that I'll remember in 25 years. For many people he didn't ruined BW but he made it.
Then take off the MBCGame thing off from your signature please.
/Ugh.
You disgust me. He had his punishment. You want to coerce everyone into punish him even more? Who are you? The worlds judge?
Have you ever worked/interacted with people who have a criminal background?
Do you realize that Savior is actually doing something very benefical to the community by giving lessons, he could breed the a new generation of progamers.
You don't seem to understand how much the match fixing scandal hurt the scene. Companies do not want to sponsor a game involved in a match fixing scandal. It's by far the main reason teams have disbanded, MBCGame became a music channel, and OSL struggles to find sponsors.
Yes he does have criminal record, but he totally deserves it. I don't even see how giving lessons is beneficial, it's just an arrogant provocation after what happened. "Hey guys, your team disbanded ? That sucks, sorry to hear that ! Well, I'm still making money off this game :trollface:"
Oh, companys do not want to sponsor a game with match fixing? aaah, that is why there is 0 sponsors for scbw. oh wait, no there is still a proleague. must be all fake sponsors, huh?
It is just an arrogant provocation? Do you know Diego Armando Maradona? He was caught doping, but him beeing the coach for Argentina was just an arrogant provocation, right?
Yeah that's what I said. Current sponsors are all historical sponsors. Proleague is sponsored by SK Telecom. Sparkyz disbanded right after the match fixing scandal. eSTRO not long later. Then 3 more teams disbanded and merged into a new one, Team 8 that hasn't found a sponsor yet, so it's financed by KeSPA, whose board is composed of the big old sponsors representatives. We got a confirmation that a new OSL would start, I am really looking forward to hearing the name of the sponsor.
Your Maradona analogy is not relevant. Maradona did not ruin the football scene. If he did he wouldn't have been appointed as Argentina's coach.
On March 30 2012 13:54 MountainDewJunkie wrote: I must interject: progamers do NOT do this for the love of the game. They get paid. In the case of Nada, Savior, and now Flash, some got paid amazingly well. Whether it was a passion that turned into a profession, or just a profitable hobby, our BW heroes played for the money. Let's not talk about love or passion. Let's be honest. Savior played BW for money, fixed games for money (after he couldn't win any more tournaments), and is now offering lessons for money. On this particular point, I have no objection.
Honestly, I think that sAviOr could still win tournaments. I watched him win a Blizzcon outright in '08 (I think?) and that was in the middle of his "slump" which we now know was due to throwing games. He played real for that one because there were no real betting going on for that tournament. I think he simply decided that there was more money in throwing games than actually winning tournaments, as well as their being no real risk involved in throwing matches... outside of being caught (LOL, that didn't work out so well, did it?).
On March 30 2012 09:58 RezChi wrote: Fuck this asshole. Ruins Brood-War and still tries to make money off of it.
He will be one of the progamers name and carrer that I'll remember in 25 years. For many people he didn't ruined BW but he made it.
Then take off the MBCGame thing off from your signature please.
/Ugh.
You disgust me. He had his punishment. You want to coerce everyone into punish him even more? Who are you? The worlds judge?
Have you ever worked/interacted with people who have a criminal background?
Do you realize that Savior is actually doing something very benefical to the community by giving lessons, he could breed the a new generation of progamers.
You don't seem to understand how much the match fixing scandal hurt the scene. Companies do not want to sponsor a game involved in a match fixing scandal. It's by far the main reason teams have disbanded, MBCGame became a music channel, and OSL struggles to find sponsors.
Yes he does have criminal record, but he totally deserves it. I don't even see how giving lessons is beneficial, it's just an arrogant provocation after what happened. "Hey guys, your team disbanded ? That sucks, sorry to hear that ! Well, I'm still making money off this game :trollface:"
Oh, companys do not want to sponsor a game with match fixing? aaah, that is why there is 0 sponsors for scbw. oh wait, no there is still a proleague. must be all fake sponsors, huh?
It is just an arrogant provocation? Do you know Diego Armando Maradona? He was caught doping, but him beeing the coach for Argentina was just an arrogant provocation, right?
On March 30 2012 09:58 RezChi wrote: Fuck this asshole. Ruins Brood-War and still tries to make money off of it.
He will be one of the progamers name and carrer that I'll remember in 25 years. For many people he didn't ruined BW but he made it.
Then take off the MBCGame thing off from your signature please.
/Ugh.
You disgust me. He had his punishment. You want to coerce everyone into punish him even more? Who are you? The worlds judge?
Have you ever worked/interacted with people who have a criminal background?
Do you realize that Savior is actually doing something very benefical to the community by giving lessons, he could breed the a new generation of progamers.
Beneficial? Sure, benefit from teaching all those kids to have hopes of becoming a pro-BW player.
Oh wait, while raising those kids, lets not forget to mention what he also did to destroy those hopes of kids who wanted to become a pro-player by downsizing the scene into 1 studio and 8 teams. Let's also mention the fact that BW has been getting less sponsorship requests nowadays, and OGN/KeSPA actually has hard time finding sponsors due to the bad image of e-Sports caused by those "incidents"
If I knew that the day I last sat in MBCGame was going to be the last Proleague game being held in LOOX studio with full attendee, then I would've savored every single second of it. Thanks to people who are "doing something very beneficial to the community by giving lessons" and "breed a new generation of progamers", I regret getting out of the studio without taking few extra photos for myself.
If people in this community had even a slight clue about what happened in the Korean BW scene with this particular incident, they know that Savior incident actually mattered in closure of MBCGame. If you know about the match fixing then still choose to support Savior or this lesson, that's fine by me because sometimes, you can't let go of your idol. However, don't act like you actually care for the closure of MBCGame if you still support his cause.
The match fixing happened 2 years ago and now the sponsors are abandoning scbw because of it. That some massive lag right there, can you explain that lag to me? Is it really the bad image of esports? Is SC2 included in that esport? Do they also suffer from the match fixing? I mean, it has to because savior killed esports single handedly according to you.
Is it really because of people giving brood war lessons that you can't go to the LOOX studio anymore, or is it rather because of people throwing games? Oh wait, for you the action doesn't matter, it's all about the name.
Can you give me sources for the direct correlation of the closing of MBCGame and the match fixing (which is not entirely saviors fault)?
Who are you to tell people what they care about? Worlds judge again? I care about the closure of MBCGame, it fucking sucks. But I have an entire different view about punishment of people than you. I value actions way higher than names. Who are you to tell me that I'm wrong and you are right?
You got to be fucking kidding me, it's has never "lagged". Since the scandal less and less big companies wanted to sponsor a OSL/MSL/Proleague or teams. It didn't only start now. NO MONEY=NO OSL/MSL/PROLEAUGE/TEAMS=Downfall of broodwar which is practically ESPORTS in Korea itself back then. Ever wondered why NO big company sponsors a SC2 team in Korea?
PS. If you didn't know, Savior was practically the head of the Match-making group.
On March 30 2012 09:58 RezChi wrote: Fuck this asshole. Ruins Brood-War and still tries to make money off of it.
He will be one of the progamers name and carrer that I'll remember in 25 years. For many people he didn't ruined BW but he made it.
Then take off the MBCGame thing off from your signature please.
/Ugh.
You disgust me. He had his punishment. You want to coerce everyone into punish him even more? Who are you? The worlds judge?
Have you ever worked/interacted with people who have a criminal background?
Do you realize that Savior is actually doing something very benefical to the community by giving lessons, he could breed the a new generation of progamers.
You don't seem to understand how much the match fixing scandal hurt the scene. Companies do not want to sponsor a game involved in a match fixing scandal. It's by far the main reason teams have disbanded, MBCGame became a music channel, and OSL struggles to find sponsors.
Yes he does have criminal record, but he totally deserves it. I don't even see how giving lessons is beneficial, it's just an arrogant provocation after what happened. "Hey guys, your team disbanded ? That sucks, sorry to hear that ! Well, I'm still making money off this game :trollface:"
Oh, companys do not want to sponsor a game with match fixing? aaah, that is why there is 0 sponsors for scbw. oh wait, no there is still a proleague. must be all fake sponsors, huh?
It is just an arrogant provocation? Do you know Diego Armando Maradona? He was caught doping, but him beeing the coach for Argentina was just an arrogant provocation, right?
On March 30 2012 09:58 RezChi wrote: Fuck this asshole. Ruins Brood-War and still tries to make money off of it.
He will be one of the progamers name and carrer that I'll remember in 25 years. For many people he didn't ruined BW but he made it.
Then take off the MBCGame thing off from your signature please.
/Ugh.
You disgust me. He had his punishment. You want to coerce everyone into punish him even more? Who are you? The worlds judge?
Have you ever worked/interacted with people who have a criminal background?
Do you realize that Savior is actually doing something very benefical to the community by giving lessons, he could breed the a new generation of progamers.
Beneficial? Sure, benefit from teaching all those kids to have hopes of becoming a pro-BW player.
Oh wait, while raising those kids, lets not forget to mention what he also did to destroy those hopes of kids who wanted to become a pro-player by downsizing the scene into 1 studio and 8 teams. Let's also mention the fact that BW has been getting less sponsorship requests nowadays, and OGN/KeSPA actually has hard time finding sponsors due to the bad image of e-Sports caused by those "incidents"
If I knew that the day I last sat in MBCGame was going to be the last Proleague game being held in LOOX studio with full attendee, then I would've savored every single second of it. Thanks to people who are "doing something very beneficial to the community by giving lessons" and "breed a new generation of progamers", I regret getting out of the studio without taking few extra photos for myself.
If people in this community had even a slight clue about what happened in the Korean BW scene with this particular incident, they know that Savior incident actually mattered in closure of MBCGame. If you know about the match fixing then still choose to support Savior or this lesson, that's fine by me because sometimes, you can't let go of your idol. However, don't act like you actually care for the closure of MBCGame if you still support his cause.
The match fixing happened 2 years ago and now the sponsors are abandoning scbw because of it. That some massive lag right there, can you explain that lag to me? Is it really the bad image of esports? Is SC2 included in that esport? Do they also suffer from the match fixing? I mean, it has to because savior killed esports single handedly according to you.
Is it really because of people giving brood war lessons that you can't go to the LOOX studio anymore, or is it rather because of people throwing games? Oh wait, for you the action doesn't matter, it's all about the name.
Can you give me sources for the direct correlation of the closing of MBCGame and the match fixing (which is not entirely saviors fault)?
Who are you to tell people what they care about? Worlds judge again? I care about the closure of MBCGame, it fucking sucks. But I have an entire different view about punishment of people than you. I value actions way higher than names. Who are you to tell me that I'm wrong and you are right?
I'm sorry, did you support the scene long enough to get your name appeared on OGN casts that support teamliquid itself?
Did you translate enough articles to get invited to CJ Entus and sit down and talk, including but not limited to KeSPA and SC2 and little bit of Match Fixing?
Did you even read what I posted in several other threads about MBCGame and Savior?
On March 30 2012 09:58 RezChi wrote: Fuck this asshole. Ruins Brood-War and still tries to make money off of it.
He will be one of the progamers name and carrer that I'll remember in 25 years. For many people he didn't ruined BW but he made it.
Then take off the MBCGame thing off from your signature please.
/Ugh.
You disgust me. He had his punishment. You want to coerce everyone into punish him even more? Who are you? The worlds judge?
Have you ever worked/interacted with people who have a criminal background?
Do you realize that Savior is actually doing something very benefical to the community by giving lessons, he could breed the a new generation of progamers.
You don't seem to understand how much the match fixing scandal hurt the scene. Companies do not want to sponsor a game involved in a match fixing scandal. It's by far the main reason teams have disbanded, MBCGame became a music channel, and OSL struggles to find sponsors.
Yes he does have criminal record, but he totally deserves it. I don't even see how giving lessons is beneficial, it's just an arrogant provocation after what happened. "Hey guys, your team disbanded ? That sucks, sorry to hear that ! Well, I'm still making money off this game :trollface:"
Oh, companys do not want to sponsor a game with match fixing? aaah, that is why there is 0 sponsors for scbw. oh wait, no there is still a proleague. must be all fake sponsors, huh?
It is just an arrogant provocation? Do you know Diego Armando Maradona? He was caught doping, but him beeing the coach for Argentina was just an arrogant provocation, right?
On March 30 2012 12:21 supernovamaniac wrote:
On March 30 2012 10:45 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
On March 30 2012 10:11 supernovamaniac wrote:
On March 30 2012 10:09 scDeluX wrote:
On March 30 2012 09:58 RezChi wrote: Fuck this asshole. Ruins Brood-War and still tries to make money off of it.
He will be one of the progamers name and carrer that I'll remember in 25 years. For many people he didn't ruined BW but he made it.
Then take off the MBCGame thing off from your signature please.
/Ugh.
You disgust me. He had his punishment. You want to coerce everyone into punish him even more? Who are you? The worlds judge?
Have you ever worked/interacted with people who have a criminal background?
Do you realize that Savior is actually doing something very benefical to the community by giving lessons, he could breed the a new generation of progamers.
Beneficial? Sure, benefit from teaching all those kids to have hopes of becoming a pro-BW player.
Oh wait, while raising those kids, lets not forget to mention what he also did to destroy those hopes of kids who wanted to become a pro-player by downsizing the scene into 1 studio and 8 teams. Let's also mention the fact that BW has been getting less sponsorship requests nowadays, and OGN/KeSPA actually has hard time finding sponsors due to the bad image of e-Sports caused by those "incidents"
If I knew that the day I last sat in MBCGame was going to be the last Proleague game being held in LOOX studio with full attendee, then I would've savored every single second of it. Thanks to people who are "doing something very beneficial to the community by giving lessons" and "breed a new generation of progamers", I regret getting out of the studio without taking few extra photos for myself.
If people in this community had even a slight clue about what happened in the Korean BW scene with this particular incident, they know that Savior incident actually mattered in closure of MBCGame. If you know about the match fixing then still choose to support Savior or this lesson, that's fine by me because sometimes, you can't let go of your idol. However, don't act like you actually care for the closure of MBCGame if you still support his cause.
The match fixing happened 2 years ago and now the sponsors are abandoning scbw because of it. That some massive lag right there, can you explain that lag to me? Is it really the bad image of esports? Is SC2 included in that esport? Do they also suffer from the match fixing? I mean, it has to because savior killed esports single handedly according to you.
Is it really because of people giving brood war lessons that you can't go to the LOOX studio anymore, or is it rather because of people throwing games? Oh wait, for you the action doesn't matter, it's all about the name.
Can you give me sources for the direct correlation of the closing of MBCGame and the match fixing (which is not entirely saviors fault)?
Who are you to tell people what they care about? Worlds judge again? I care about the closure of MBCGame, it fucking sucks. But I have an entire different view about punishment of people than you. I value actions way higher than names. Who are you to tell me that I'm wrong and you are right?
You got to be fucking kidding me, it's has never "lagged". Since the scandal less and less big companies wanted to sponsor a OSL/MSL/Proleague or teams. It didn't only start now. NO MONEY=NO OSL/MSL/PROLEAUGE/TEAMS=Downfall of broodwar which is practically ESPORTS in Korea itself back then. Ever wondered why NO big company sponsors a SC2 team in Korea?
PS. If you didn't know, Savior was practically the head of the Match-making group.
I didn't say it just started now.
supernovamaniac Let's also mention the fact that BW has been getting less sponsorship requests nowadays
On March 30 2012 09:58 RezChi wrote: Fuck this asshole. Ruins Brood-War and still tries to make money off of it.
He will be one of the progamers name and carrer that I'll remember in 25 years. For many people he didn't ruined BW but he made it.
Then take off the MBCGame thing off from your signature please.
/Ugh.
You disgust me. He had his punishment. You want to coerce everyone into punish him even more? Who are you? The worlds judge?
Have you ever worked/interacted with people who have a criminal background?
Do you realize that Savior is actually doing something very benefical to the community by giving lessons, he could breed the a new generation of progamers.
You don't seem to understand how much the match fixing scandal hurt the scene. Companies do not want to sponsor a game involved in a match fixing scandal. It's by far the main reason teams have disbanded, MBCGame became a music channel, and OSL struggles to find sponsors.
Yes he does have criminal record, but he totally deserves it. I don't even see how giving lessons is beneficial, it's just an arrogant provocation after what happened. "Hey guys, your team disbanded ? That sucks, sorry to hear that ! Well, I'm still making money off this game :trollface:"
Oh, companys do not want to sponsor a game with match fixing? aaah, that is why there is 0 sponsors for scbw. oh wait, no there is still a proleague. must be all fake sponsors, huh?
It is just an arrogant provocation? Do you know Diego Armando Maradona? He was caught doping, but him beeing the coach for Argentina was just an arrogant provocation, right?
On March 30 2012 12:21 supernovamaniac wrote:
On March 30 2012 10:45 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
On March 30 2012 10:11 supernovamaniac wrote:
On March 30 2012 10:09 scDeluX wrote:
On March 30 2012 09:58 RezChi wrote: Fuck this asshole. Ruins Brood-War and still tries to make money off of it.
He will be one of the progamers name and carrer that I'll remember in 25 years. For many people he didn't ruined BW but he made it.
Then take off the MBCGame thing off from your signature please.
/Ugh.
You disgust me. He had his punishment. You want to coerce everyone into punish him even more? Who are you? The worlds judge?
Have you ever worked/interacted with people who have a criminal background?
Do you realize that Savior is actually doing something very benefical to the community by giving lessons, he could breed the a new generation of progamers.
Beneficial? Sure, benefit from teaching all those kids to have hopes of becoming a pro-BW player.
Oh wait, while raising those kids, lets not forget to mention what he also did to destroy those hopes of kids who wanted to become a pro-player by downsizing the scene into 1 studio and 8 teams. Let's also mention the fact that BW has been getting less sponsorship requests nowadays, and OGN/KeSPA actually has hard time finding sponsors due to the bad image of e-Sports caused by those "incidents"
If I knew that the day I last sat in MBCGame was going to be the last Proleague game being held in LOOX studio with full attendee, then I would've savored every single second of it. Thanks to people who are "doing something very beneficial to the community by giving lessons" and "breed a new generation of progamers", I regret getting out of the studio without taking few extra photos for myself.
If people in this community had even a slight clue about what happened in the Korean BW scene with this particular incident, they know that Savior incident actually mattered in closure of MBCGame. If you know about the match fixing then still choose to support Savior or this lesson, that's fine by me because sometimes, you can't let go of your idol. However, don't act like you actually care for the closure of MBCGame if you still support his cause.
The match fixing happened 2 years ago and now the sponsors are abandoning scbw because of it. That some massive lag right there, can you explain that lag to me? Is it really the bad image of esports? Is SC2 included in that esport? Do they also suffer from the match fixing? I mean, it has to because savior killed esports single handedly according to you.
Is it really because of people giving brood war lessons that you can't go to the LOOX studio anymore, or is it rather because of people throwing games? Oh wait, for you the action doesn't matter, it's all about the name.
Can you give me sources for the direct correlation of the closing of MBCGame and the match fixing (which is not entirely saviors fault)?
Who are you to tell people what they care about? Worlds judge again? I care about the closure of MBCGame, it fucking sucks. But I have an entire different view about punishment of people than you. I value actions way higher than names. Who are you to tell me that I'm wrong and you are right?
I'm sorry, did you support the scene long enough to get your name appeared on OGN casts that support teamliquid itself?
Did you translate enough articles to get invited to CJ Entus and sit down and talk, including but not limited to KeSPA and SC2 and little bit of Match Fixing?
Did you even read what I posted in several other threads about MBCGame and Savior?
On March 30 2012 09:58 RezChi wrote: Fuck this asshole. Ruins Brood-War and still tries to make money off of it.
He will be one of the progamers name and carrer that I'll remember in 25 years. For many people he didn't ruined BW but he made it.
Then take off the MBCGame thing off from your signature please.
/Ugh.
You disgust me. He had his punishment. You want to coerce everyone into punish him even more? Who are you? The worlds judge?
Have you ever worked/interacted with people who have a criminal background?
Do you realize that Savior is actually doing something very benefical to the community by giving lessons, he could breed the a new generation of progamers.
You don't seem to understand how much the match fixing scandal hurt the scene. Companies do not want to sponsor a game involved in a match fixing scandal. It's by far the main reason teams have disbanded, MBCGame became a music channel, and OSL struggles to find sponsors.
Yes he does have criminal record, but he totally deserves it. I don't even see how giving lessons is beneficial, it's just an arrogant provocation after what happened. "Hey guys, your team disbanded ? That sucks, sorry to hear that ! Well, I'm still making money off this game :trollface:"
Oh, companys do not want to sponsor a game with match fixing? aaah, that is why there is 0 sponsors for scbw. oh wait, no there is still a proleague. must be all fake sponsors, huh?
It is just an arrogant provocation? Do you know Diego Armando Maradona? He was caught doping, but him beeing the coach for Argentina was just an arrogant provocation, right?
On March 30 2012 12:21 supernovamaniac wrote:
On March 30 2012 10:45 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
On March 30 2012 10:11 supernovamaniac wrote:
On March 30 2012 10:09 scDeluX wrote:
On March 30 2012 09:58 RezChi wrote: Fuck this asshole. Ruins Brood-War and still tries to make money off of it.
He will be one of the progamers name and carrer that I'll remember in 25 years. For many people he didn't ruined BW but he made it.
Then take off the MBCGame thing off from your signature please.
/Ugh.
You disgust me. He had his punishment. You want to coerce everyone into punish him even more? Who are you? The worlds judge?
Have you ever worked/interacted with people who have a criminal background?
Do you realize that Savior is actually doing something very benefical to the community by giving lessons, he could breed the a new generation of progamers.
Beneficial? Sure, benefit from teaching all those kids to have hopes of becoming a pro-BW player.
Oh wait, while raising those kids, lets not forget to mention what he also did to destroy those hopes of kids who wanted to become a pro-player by downsizing the scene into 1 studio and 8 teams. Let's also mention the fact that BW has been getting less sponsorship requests nowadays, and OGN/KeSPA actually has hard time finding sponsors due to the bad image of e-Sports caused by those "incidents"
If I knew that the day I last sat in MBCGame was going to be the last Proleague game being held in LOOX studio with full attendee, then I would've savored every single second of it. Thanks to people who are "doing something very beneficial to the community by giving lessons" and "breed a new generation of progamers", I regret getting out of the studio without taking few extra photos for myself.
If people in this community had even a slight clue about what happened in the Korean BW scene with this particular incident, they know that Savior incident actually mattered in closure of MBCGame. If you know about the match fixing then still choose to support Savior or this lesson, that's fine by me because sometimes, you can't let go of your idol. However, don't act like you actually care for the closure of MBCGame if you still support his cause.
The match fixing happened 2 years ago and now the sponsors are abandoning scbw because of it. That some massive lag right there, can you explain that lag to me? Is it really the bad image of esports? Is SC2 included in that esport? Do they also suffer from the match fixing? I mean, it has to because savior killed esports single handedly according to you.
Is it really because of people giving brood war lessons that you can't go to the LOOX studio anymore, or is it rather because of people throwing games? Oh wait, for you the action doesn't matter, it's all about the name.
Can you give me sources for the direct correlation of the closing of MBCGame and the match fixing (which is not entirely saviors fault)?
Who are you to tell people what they care about? Worlds judge again? I care about the closure of MBCGame, it fucking sucks. But I have an entire different view about punishment of people than you. I value actions way higher than names. Who are you to tell me that I'm wrong and you are right?
I'm sorry, did you support the scene long enough to get your name appeared on OGN casts that support teamliquid itself?
Did you translate enough articles to get invited to CJ Entus and sit down and talk, including but not limited to KeSPA and SC2 and little bit of Match Fixing?
Did you even read what I posted in several other threads about MBCGame and Savior?
On March 30 2012 09:58 RezChi wrote: Fuck this asshole. Ruins Brood-War and still tries to make money off of it.
He will be one of the progamers name and carrer that I'll remember in 25 years. For many people he didn't ruined BW but he made it.
Then take off the MBCGame thing off from your signature please.
/Ugh.
You disgust me. He had his punishment. You want to coerce everyone into punish him even more? Who are you? The worlds judge?
Have you ever worked/interacted with people who have a criminal background?
Do you realize that Savior is actually doing something very benefical to the community by giving lessons, he could breed the a new generation of progamers.
You don't seem to understand how much the match fixing scandal hurt the scene. Companies do not want to sponsor a game involved in a match fixing scandal. It's by far the main reason teams have disbanded, MBCGame became a music channel, and OSL struggles to find sponsors.
Yes he does have criminal record, but he totally deserves it. I don't even see how giving lessons is beneficial, it's just an arrogant provocation after what happened. "Hey guys, your team disbanded ? That sucks, sorry to hear that ! Well, I'm still making money off this game :trollface:"
Oh, companys do not want to sponsor a game with match fixing? aaah, that is why there is 0 sponsors for scbw. oh wait, no there is still a proleague. must be all fake sponsors, huh?
It is just an arrogant provocation? Do you know Diego Armando Maradona? He was caught doping, but him beeing the coach for Argentina was just an arrogant provocation, right?
On March 30 2012 12:21 supernovamaniac wrote:
On March 30 2012 10:45 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
On March 30 2012 10:11 supernovamaniac wrote:
On March 30 2012 10:09 scDeluX wrote:
On March 30 2012 09:58 RezChi wrote: Fuck this asshole. Ruins Brood-War and still tries to make money off of it.
He will be one of the progamers name and carrer that I'll remember in 25 years. For many people he didn't ruined BW but he made it.
Then take off the MBCGame thing off from your signature please.
/Ugh.
You disgust me. He had his punishment. You want to coerce everyone into punish him even more? Who are you? The worlds judge?
Have you ever worked/interacted with people who have a criminal background?
Do you realize that Savior is actually doing something very benefical to the community by giving lessons, he could breed the a new generation of progamers.
Beneficial? Sure, benefit from teaching all those kids to have hopes of becoming a pro-BW player.
Oh wait, while raising those kids, lets not forget to mention what he also did to destroy those hopes of kids who wanted to become a pro-player by downsizing the scene into 1 studio and 8 teams. Let's also mention the fact that BW has been getting less sponsorship requests nowadays, and OGN/KeSPA actually has hard time finding sponsors due to the bad image of e-Sports caused by those "incidents"
If I knew that the day I last sat in MBCGame was going to be the last Proleague game being held in LOOX studio with full attendee, then I would've savored every single second of it. Thanks to people who are "doing something very beneficial to the community by giving lessons" and "breed a new generation of progamers", I regret getting out of the studio without taking few extra photos for myself.
If people in this community had even a slight clue about what happened in the Korean BW scene with this particular incident, they know that Savior incident actually mattered in closure of MBCGame. If you know about the match fixing then still choose to support Savior or this lesson, that's fine by me because sometimes, you can't let go of your idol. However, don't act like you actually care for the closure of MBCGame if you still support his cause.
The match fixing happened 2 years ago and now the sponsors are abandoning scbw because of it. That some massive lag right there, can you explain that lag to me? Is it really the bad image of esports? Is SC2 included in that esport? Do they also suffer from the match fixing? I mean, it has to because savior killed esports single handedly according to you.
Is it really because of people giving brood war lessons that you can't go to the LOOX studio anymore, or is it rather because of people throwing games? Oh wait, for you the action doesn't matter, it's all about the name.
Can you give me sources for the direct correlation of the closing of MBCGame and the match fixing (which is not entirely saviors fault)?
Who are you to tell people what they care about? Worlds judge again? I care about the closure of MBCGame, it fucking sucks. But I have an entire different view about punishment of people than you. I value actions way higher than names. Who are you to tell me that I'm wrong and you are right?
I'm sorry, did you support the scene long enough to get your name appeared on OGN casts that support teamliquid itself?
Did you translate enough articles to get invited to CJ Entus and sit down and talk, including but not limited to KeSPA and SC2 and little bit of Match Fixing?
Did you even read what I posted in several other threads about MBCGame and Savior?
If you guys actually think that Savior is the sole reason why BW has slowly been dwindling, then you are delusional and are grasping at straws trying to find a scapegoat.
He obviously has a serious passion for the game if he still trying to get involved in any way he can. This match fixing was almost two years ago. Look at Tiger Woods he cheated (on his wife) and now people don't really talk about it that much. Okay... I just wanted to make a Tiger woods joke. On a serious note I welcome it he loves the game let him do his thing.
Cheating on your wife has fuck all to do with match fixing scandals within your own competitive sport industry. Tiger Woods only made his own personal life look bad, while Savior put the whole BW esport industry under negative scrutiny. What he did almost damaged other people's livelihood completely. Who would watch esport if they knew that many matches are rigged? Savior fanboys are ridiculous.
On March 30 2012 14:37 koreasilver wrote: If you guys actually think that Savior is the sole reason why BW has slowly been dwindling, then you are delusional and are grasping at straws trying to find a scapegoat.
I don't think anyone said he is the sole reason why BW is dwindling, but it cannot simply be overlooked either. It is just but one variable when it came to finding new sponsorship opportunities and when we consider the timeline. We would be foolish to dismiss it.
On March 30 2012 14:37 koreasilver wrote: If you guys actually think that Savior is the sole reason why BW has slowly been dwindling, then you are delusional and are grasping at straws trying to find a scapegoat.
He isn't the only reason for the decline that BW has seen, but he's one of the biggest reasons. Many people when they get interviewed often reference savior and the match-fixing scandal when asked about why BW is getting smaller.
On March 30 2012 09:58 RezChi wrote: Fuck this asshole. Ruins Brood-War and still tries to make money off of it.
He will be one of the progamers name and carrer that I'll remember in 25 years. For many people he didn't ruined BW but he made it.
Then take off the MBCGame thing off from your signature please.
/Ugh.
You disgust me. He had his punishment. You want to coerce everyone into punish him even more? Who are you? The worlds judge?
Have you ever worked/interacted with people who have a criminal background?
Do you realize that Savior is actually doing something very benefical to the community by giving lessons, he could breed the a new generation of progamers.
You don't seem to understand how much the match fixing scandal hurt the scene. Companies do not want to sponsor a game involved in a match fixing scandal. It's by far the main reason teams have disbanded, MBCGame became a music channel, and OSL struggles to find sponsors.
Yes he does have criminal record, but he totally deserves it. I don't even see how giving lessons is beneficial, it's just an arrogant provocation after what happened. "Hey guys, your team disbanded ? That sucks, sorry to hear that ! Well, I'm still making money off this game :trollface:"
Oh, companys do not want to sponsor a game with match fixing? aaah, that is why there is 0 sponsors for scbw. oh wait, no there is still a proleague. must be all fake sponsors, huh?
It is just an arrogant provocation? Do you know Diego Armando Maradona? He was caught doping, but him beeing the coach for Argentina was just an arrogant provocation, right?
On March 30 2012 09:58 RezChi wrote: Fuck this asshole. Ruins Brood-War and still tries to make money off of it.
He will be one of the progamers name and carrer that I'll remember in 25 years. For many people he didn't ruined BW but he made it.
Then take off the MBCGame thing off from your signature please.
/Ugh.
You disgust me. He had his punishment. You want to coerce everyone into punish him even more? Who are you? The worlds judge?
Have you ever worked/interacted with people who have a criminal background?
Do you realize that Savior is actually doing something very benefical to the community by giving lessons, he could breed the a new generation of progamers.
Beneficial? Sure, benefit from teaching all those kids to have hopes of becoming a pro-BW player.
Oh wait, while raising those kids, lets not forget to mention what he also did to destroy those hopes of kids who wanted to become a pro-player by downsizing the scene into 1 studio and 8 teams. Let's also mention the fact that BW has been getting less sponsorship requests nowadays, and OGN/KeSPA actually has hard time finding sponsors due to the bad image of e-Sports caused by those "incidents"
If I knew that the day I last sat in MBCGame was going to be the last Proleague game being held in LOOX studio with full attendee, then I would've savored every single second of it. Thanks to people who are "doing something very beneficial to the community by giving lessons" and "breed a new generation of progamers", I regret getting out of the studio without taking few extra photos for myself.
If people in this community had even a slight clue about what happened in the Korean BW scene with this particular incident, they know that Savior incident actually mattered in closure of MBCGame. If you know about the match fixing then still choose to support Savior or this lesson, that's fine by me because sometimes, you can't let go of your idol. However, don't act like you actually care for the closure of MBCGame if you still support his cause.
The match fixing happened 2 years ago and now the sponsors are abandoning scbw because of it. That some massive lag right there, can you explain that lag to me? Is it really the bad image of esports? Is SC2 included in that esport? Do they also suffer from the match fixing? I mean, it has to because savior killed esports single handedly according to you.
Is it really because of people giving brood war lessons that you can't go to the LOOX studio anymore, or is it rather because of people throwing games? Oh wait, for you the action doesn't matter, it's all about the name.
Can you give me sources for the direct correlation of the closing of MBCGame and the match fixing (which is not entirely saviors fault)?
Who are you to tell people what they care about? Worlds judge again? I care about the closure of MBCGame, it fucking sucks. But I have an entire different view about punishment of people than you. I value actions way higher than names. Who are you to tell me that I'm wrong and you are right?
You should take note to read up and give thoughts to posts made by people who are evidently more well-informed than you.
Look at our recent sponsors for our Leagues:
SK Planet is obviously affiliated with SK Telecom. Jin Air and Korean Air with CJ.
That left what? ABC Mart? Not to mention that Shinhan Bank terminated their sponsorship after the 10/11 Season despite having sponsored the SPL for several years running.
You clearly havn't been reading up, and should refrain from these confrontational/condescending tone, especially towards more well-informed people (supernovamaniac is a very good example of one).
Edit: Lol most people who defend Savior are the SC2 guys (like dude below, >95% posts on SC2 section). Interesting trend.
Savior destroyed the game? Oh wait...thats just the blind hate posts.
How about you remember how much this guy contributed to the pro scene in the first place? This game would have been a hell of a lot worse if Saviors star didnt shine. Do you even realise what an impact he had on the whole scene with his sole appearance? I would say fuck all based on reading most of your posts. He made the scene better and increased the scenes life with some extra years. He made a mistake and destroyed his pro career. Thats all there is. Dont give me that crap that he killed all of the sponsors interest and completely ruined the scene of a game which is naturally going towards its end after so many years. Even if this incident never occurred this game would still be close to its end. And if Savior never appeared in the scene this game would have probably been dead already.
On March 30 2012 15:36 OutOfMyMind_pro wrote: Savior destroyed the game? Oh wait...thats just the blind hate posts.
How about you remember how much this guy contributed to the pro scene in the first place? This game would have been a hell of a lot worse if Saviors star didnt shine. Do you even realise what an impact he had on the whole scene with his sole appearance? I would say fuck all based on reading most of your posts. He made the scene better and increased the scenes life with some extra years. He made a mistake and destroyed his pro career. Thats all there is. Dont give me that crap that he killed all of the sponsors interest and completely ruined the scene of a game which is naturally going towards its end after so many years. Even if this incident never occurred this game would still be close to its end. And if Savior never appeared in the scene this game would have probably been dead already.
Remember how he contributed ? How about players like boxer,oov,garimto,nal_ra and kingdom oldies before he even existed build the whole esport scene from the ground up so players like "SAVIOR" can reap the benefit of a better gaming environment and not eat instant noodle the whole month ? . You talk as if savior created the scene, he maybe has brought a lot of fame for broodwar but he didn't started .Don't talk as if the whole esport scene owe savior a thing, in fact he owes to the old hyung who started this professional scene for them .
Also if he only destroyed his career it would be fine with me but no .... he had take down everyone with him .Potential rising players with great talent were all destroyed together with him . Take a look of it of the broodwar pro gaming franchise as a means of promoting an image of the company who is sponsoring the teams . The teams do well the company image also gets better and fans may even support the company that is sponsoring the teams because this is how they see the connection between the players and the company .
Now which company will want to sponsor when their image has already been tainted with words such as "Match Fixer" not only it kills what professional sports is about it destroys everything the commentators and broadcasting company effort has done for years .The gravity of his action is really big and you may not know it .
Watch this and be more informed about the situation that you don't understand about listen to the commentators and kingdom if you know who is kingdom that I am talking about .
On March 30 2012 09:58 RezChi wrote: Fuck this asshole. Ruins Brood-War and still tries to make money off of it.
He will be one of the progamers name and carrer that I'll remember in 25 years. For many people he didn't ruined BW but he made it.
Then take off the MBCGame thing off from your signature please.
/Ugh.
You disgust me. He had his punishment. You want to coerce everyone into punish him even more? Who are you? The worlds judge?
Have you ever worked/interacted with people who have a criminal background?
Do you realize that Savior is actually doing something very benefical to the community by giving lessons, he could breed the a new generation of progamers.
You don't seem to understand how much the match fixing scandal hurt the scene. Companies do not want to sponsor a game involved in a match fixing scandal. It's by far the main reason teams have disbanded, MBCGame became a music channel, and OSL struggles to find sponsors.
Yes he does have criminal record, but he totally deserves it. I don't even see how giving lessons is beneficial, it's just an arrogant provocation after what happened. "Hey guys, your team disbanded ? That sucks, sorry to hear that ! Well, I'm still making money off this game :trollface:"
Oh, companys do not want to sponsor a game with match fixing? aaah, that is why there is 0 sponsors for scbw. oh wait, no there is still a proleague. must be all fake sponsors, huh?
It is just an arrogant provocation? Do you know Diego Armando Maradona? He was caught doping, but him beeing the coach for Argentina was just an arrogant provocation, right?
On March 30 2012 12:21 supernovamaniac wrote:
On March 30 2012 10:45 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
On March 30 2012 10:11 supernovamaniac wrote:
On March 30 2012 10:09 scDeluX wrote:
On March 30 2012 09:58 RezChi wrote: Fuck this asshole. Ruins Brood-War and still tries to make money off of it.
He will be one of the progamers name and carrer that I'll remember in 25 years. For many people he didn't ruined BW but he made it.
Then take off the MBCGame thing off from your signature please.
/Ugh.
You disgust me. He had his punishment. You want to coerce everyone into punish him even more? Who are you? The worlds judge?
Have you ever worked/interacted with people who have a criminal background?
Do you realize that Savior is actually doing something very benefical to the community by giving lessons, he could breed the a new generation of progamers.
Beneficial? Sure, benefit from teaching all those kids to have hopes of becoming a pro-BW player.
Oh wait, while raising those kids, lets not forget to mention what he also did to destroy those hopes of kids who wanted to become a pro-player by downsizing the scene into 1 studio and 8 teams. Let's also mention the fact that BW has been getting less sponsorship requests nowadays, and OGN/KeSPA actually has hard time finding sponsors due to the bad image of e-Sports caused by those "incidents"
If I knew that the day I last sat in MBCGame was going to be the last Proleague game being held in LOOX studio with full attendee, then I would've savored every single second of it. Thanks to people who are "doing something very beneficial to the community by giving lessons" and "breed a new generation of progamers", I regret getting out of the studio without taking few extra photos for myself.
If people in this community had even a slight clue about what happened in the Korean BW scene with this particular incident, they know that Savior incident actually mattered in closure of MBCGame. If you know about the match fixing then still choose to support Savior or this lesson, that's fine by me because sometimes, you can't let go of your idol. However, don't act like you actually care for the closure of MBCGame if you still support his cause.
The match fixing happened 2 years ago and now the sponsors are abandoning scbw because of it. That some massive lag right there, can you explain that lag to me? Is it really the bad image of esports? Is SC2 included in that esport? Do they also suffer from the match fixing? I mean, it has to because savior killed esports single handedly according to you.
Is it really because of people giving brood war lessons that you can't go to the LOOX studio anymore, or is it rather because of people throwing games? Oh wait, for you the action doesn't matter, it's all about the name.
Can you give me sources for the direct correlation of the closing of MBCGame and the match fixing (which is not entirely saviors fault)?
Who are you to tell people what they care about? Worlds judge again? I care about the closure of MBCGame, it fucking sucks. But I have an entire different view about punishment of people than you. I value actions way higher than names. Who are you to tell me that I'm wrong and you are right?
You should take note to read up and give thoughts to posts made by people who are evidently more well-informed than you.
Look at our recent sponsors for our Leagues:
SK Planet is obviously affiliated with SK Telecom. Jin Air and Korean Air with CJ.
That left what? ABC Mart? Not to mention that Shinhan Bank terminated their sponsorship after the 10/11 Season despite having sponsored the SPL for several years running.
You clearly havn't been reading up, and should refrain from these confrontational/condescending tone, especially towards more well-informed people (supernovamaniac is a very good example of one).
Edit: Lol most people who defend Savior are the SC2 guys (like dude below, >95% posts on SC2 section). Interesting trend.
i have read almost anything posted on this forum. but maybe you know better what i've read than me, who knows
All I said is that he did a lot of good for the scene in the first place and its being neglected by his mistake. People with short memory forgot how he unfluenced the scene in the first place. Sure he fucked up. Every human fucks up. We cant judge him for his decisions. I cant judge you for your mistakes and you cant judge me for my mistakes. But....but
Its delusional thinking to say he destroyed the whole scene (so many people are saying this exact thing)
And what if this thing never happend? Can you bet your life that the scene will still be here after a year? Two years? Nah you can't. Dont blame a single person for his mistake because the collapse of this scene and game is inevitable. And the reasons behind this collapse got fuck all to do with this match fixing scandal.
On March 30 2012 09:58 RezChi wrote: Fuck this asshole. Ruins Brood-War and still tries to make money off of it.
He will be one of the progamers name and carrer that I'll remember in 25 years. For many people he didn't ruined BW but he made it.
Then take off the MBCGame thing off from your signature please.
/Ugh.
You disgust me. He had his punishment. You want to coerce everyone into punish him even more? Who are you? The worlds judge?
Have you ever worked/interacted with people who have a criminal background?
Do you realize that Savior is actually doing something very benefical to the community by giving lessons, he could breed the a new generation of progamers.
Beneficial? Sure, benefit from teaching all those kids to have hopes of becoming a pro-BW player.
Oh wait, while raising those kids, lets not forget to mention what he also did to destroy those hopes of kids who wanted to become a pro-player by downsizing the scene into 1 studio and 8 teams. Let's also mention the fact that BW has been getting less sponsorship requests nowadays, and OGN/KeSPA actually has hard time finding sponsors due to the bad image of e-Sports caused by those "incidents"
If I knew that the day I last sat in MBCGame was going to be the last Proleague game being held in LOOX studio with full attendee, then I would've savored every single second of it. Thanks to people who are "doing something very beneficial to the community by giving lessons" and "breed a new generation of progamers", I regret getting out of the studio without taking few extra photos for myself.
If people in this community had even a slight clue about what happened in the Korean BW scene with this particular incident, they know that Savior incident actually mattered in closure of MBCGame. If you know about the match fixing then still choose to support Savior or this lesson, that's fine by me because sometimes, you can't let go of your idol. However, don't act like you actually care for the closure of MBCGame if you still support his cause.
It's clear that you have a lot of anger directed at sAviOr as does a large proportion of the Brood War community. I fully side with you on that sAviOr was a huge factor that negatively influenced e-sports, while he brought a lot to e-sports, he took away so much more than he could ever create. This leaves a huge scar and no, Brood War has not recovered from it, in fact, Brood War is fighting to survive. And, realistically, this is only a huge issue because of the size of the scene, e-sports is not as big as most real sports which would suffer little from such an impact, e-sports began with Brood War and so, it's natural that an incident in Brood War would be costly because e-sports is still in its baby stage, it's not peaked yet, nor is it close to it.
With that being said, due to the natural way of development of games, Brood War will not live on forever as a professional sport (unless something crazy happens) nor would it have if sAviOr never existed. Brood War is more threatened by it's natural successor that being, Starcraft 2 and in the end, e-Sports will move on... Sure, none of us Brood War fans want to see Brood War die and we'll do everything in our power to keep it a live, however, be it 2 years, be it 10 years, professional Brood War will come to an end, but it won't be due to sAviOr, it'll be due to the natural succession in e-Sports. And, when the new generation of gamers blossom, the scandals and scars created by sAviOr, while they will be heard, they will fall on deaf ears because no one cares about events when they were not around to see them. This much is pretty well fact, shown throughout history (Some things taking more generations to recover from than others).
So, what does this all say, we all hate savior, we all hate to have to hate savior because we all wish he didn't do the shit that he did, however, life goes on, savior took a hit for what he had done and there's not much else we can do than be satisfied with that, you can't prevent someone from pursuing a hobby, it's practically impossible and if people want to pay him for lessons, then all the power to them, this shouldn't affect e-Sports in anyway and nor should we really care about it.
By all means, hate on savior, but based on what I said above... I don't think this merits a huge discussion, obviously there will be haters and fan boys, both think they have credit to what they say, perhaps only one side does, perhaps neither do. I won't comment on that being as by us hating on each other over what savior has done accomplishes nothing. In fact, it further deepens the wound. Please stop debating about savior.. it creates a polarized community which we really don't need.
On March 30 2012 16:13 OutOfMyMind_pro wrote: All I said is that he did a lot of good for the scene in the first place and its being neglected by his mistake. People with short memory forgot how he unfluenced the scene in the first place. Sure he fucked up. Every human fucks up. We cant judge him for his decisions. I cant judge you for your mistakes and you cant judge me for my mistakes. But....but
Its delusional thinking to say he destroyed the whole scene (so many people are saying this exact thing)
And what if this thing never happend? Can you bet your life that the scene will still be here after a year? Two years? Nah you can't. Dont blame a single person for his mistake because the collapse of this scene and game is inevitable. And the reasons behind this collapse got fuck all to do with this match fixing scandal.
Just compare the scene back than and today and see the difference between the crowd attendance and the amount of teams participating in proleague back than we had 12 teams and now we only are left with 8 bickering teams that are still surviving base on the company trust in the brand. Let's put it this way, if I remember it correctly almost all those who were involved with the match fixing scandal pointed that Savior was the one who introduce them to the gambling sites and it's parties .
From there it self it can be safely concluded that Savior was the connection for the outsiders to rig the games that were being played and still a wrong doesn't change a thing .
Eywa
With that being said, due to the natural way of development of games, Brood War will not live on forever as a professional sport (unless something crazy happens) nor would it have if sAviOr never existed. Brood War is more threatened by it's natural successor that being, Starcraft 2 and in the end, e-Sports will move on... Sure, none of us Brood War fans want to see Brood War die and we'll do everything in our power to keep it a live, however, be it 2 years, be it 10 years, professional Brood War will come to an end, but it won't be due to sAviOr, it'll be due to the natural succession in e-Sports. And, when the new generation of gamers blossom, the scandals and scars created by sAviOr, while they will be heard, they will fall on deaf ears because no one cares about events when they were not around to see them. This much is pretty well fact, shown throughout history (Some things taking more generations to recover from than others).
I don't know if it would come to an end, I don't have any intention of spreading out doom rumours about it as long as I see there are proleague and osl sponsors than bw is going to last .
With that being said, due to the natural way of development of games, Brood War will not live on forever as a professional sport (unless something crazy happens) nor would it have if sAviOr never existed. Brood War is more threatened by it's natural successor that being, Starcraft 2 and in the end, e-Sports will move on... Sure, none of us Brood War fans want to see Brood War die and we'll do everything in our power to keep it a live, however, be it 2 years, be it 10 years, professional Brood War will come to an end, but it won't be due to sAviOr, it'll be due to the natural succession in e-Sports. And, when the new generation of gamers blossom, the scandals and scars created by sAviOr, while they will be heard, they will fall on deaf ears because no one cares about events when they were not around to see them. This much is pretty well fact, shown throughout history (Some things taking more generations to recover from than others).
I don't know if it would come to an end, I don't have any intention of spreading out doom rumours about it as long as I see there are proleague and osl sponsors than bw is going to last .
Well I mean, everyone knows I am a huge supporter of Brood War, I'd love to see it last as long as possible, I'm just saying nothing is infinite.
There has to be a distinction as to Savior's acts WITHIN the BW professional community (of which, he will not, should not, and cannot be forgiven), and Savior's acts after being duly punished and banned from the community.
Savior's conduct while he was a BW pro is distinctive for its peaks and valleys. The cumulative effect is that he changed the game for the better due to his play, and yet made it harder for the game to expand towards the larger, casual fanbase due to the scandals he caused. I personally feel sad, because I know deep down in my heart that Savior's greed and criminal acts will always weigh heavier than the good he contributed to the scene. That's simply a product of the scene having a handful of other, equally dominating and talented stars (TBLS, Terran Bonjwas). If Savior was the lone star (like Boxer was back in the day), then it would probably be a toss up. If Boxer match-fixed, would we be as unforgiving? I think many would second-guess their reaction to that because Boxer WAS the scene at that time.
Savior's conduct now that he's been convicted and punished shouldn't be subject to the same standard anymore. He's not a professional anymore. He does not owe anyone, save society, an obligation (and that mostly relates to not doing anything unlawful anymore). He does not owe the BW professional scene, of which he's now a pariah to, any obligation not to play and coach for money on Afreeca. This entire issue on paid lessons is more a question of delicadeza vs necessity. While it would be more acceptable that he completely cut himself off from the gaming scene, he's also spent most of his productive, learning years playing BW professionally. It's the only thing he knows how to do that will make him a decent amount of money. He could go back to school if he wanted to, but he's probably not gonna be able to pick it all up that quickly. Unless he finds a field that's perfect for him, he has to go back to BW to make any kind of living.
It's a sad state of affairs, but if all this is a necessity on his part to move on with his life (and live normally), then all the best to him. Just don't add fuel to the fire that's consuming the BW scene right now.
On March 30 2012 09:58 RezChi wrote: Fuck this asshole. Ruins Brood-War and still tries to make money off of it.
He will be one of the progamers name and carrer that I'll remember in 25 years. For many people he didn't ruined BW but he made it.
Then take off the MBCGame thing off from your signature please.
/Ugh.
You disgust me. He had his punishment. You want to coerce everyone into punish him even more? Who are you? The worlds judge?
Have you ever worked/interacted with people who have a criminal background?
Do you realize that Savior is actually doing something very benefical to the community by giving lessons, he could breed the a new generation of progamers.
Beneficial? Sure, benefit from teaching all those kids to have hopes of becoming a pro-BW player.
Oh wait, while raising those kids, lets not forget to mention what he also did to destroy those hopes of kids who wanted to become a pro-player by downsizing the scene into 1 studio and 8 teams. Let's also mention the fact that BW has been getting less sponsorship requests nowadays, and OGN/KeSPA actually has hard time finding sponsors due to the bad image of e-Sports caused by those "incidents"
If I knew that the day I last sat in MBCGame was going to be the last Proleague game being held in LOOX studio with full attendee, then I would've savored every single second of it. Thanks to people who are "doing something very beneficial to the community by giving lessons" and "breed a new generation of progamers", I regret getting out of the studio without taking few extra photos for myself.
If people in this community had even a slight clue about what happened in the Korean BW scene with this particular incident, they know that Savior incident actually mattered in closure of MBCGame. If you know about the match fixing then still choose to support Savior or this lesson, that's fine by me because sometimes, you can't let go of your idol. However, don't act like you actually care for the closure of MBCGame if you still support his cause.
It's clear that you have a lot of anger directed at sAviOr as does a large proportion of the Brood War community. I fully side with you on that sAviOr was a huge factor that negatively influenced e-sports, while he brought a lot to e-sports, he took away so much more than he could ever create. This leaves a huge scar and no, Brood War has not recovered from it, in fact, Brood War is fighting to survive. And, realistically, this is only a huge issue because of the size of the scene, e-sports is not as big as most real sports which would suffer little from such an impact, e-sports began with Brood War and so, it's natural that an incident in Brood War would be costly because e-sports is still in its baby stage, it's not peaked yet, nor is it close to it.
With that being said, due to the natural way of development of games, Brood War will not live on forever as a professional sport (unless something crazy happens) nor would it have if sAviOr never existed. Brood War is more threatened by it's natural successor that being, Starcraft 2 and in the end, e-Sports will move on... Sure, none of us Brood War fans want to see Brood War die and we'll do everything in our power to keep it a live, however, be it 2 years, be it 10 years, professional Brood War will come to an end, but it won't be due to sAviOr, it'll be due to the natural succession in e-Sports. And, when the new generation of gamers blossom, the scandals and scars created by sAviOr, while they will be heard, they will fall on deaf ears because no one cares about events when they were not around to see them. This much is pretty well fact, shown throughout history (Some things taking more generations to recover from than others).
So, what does this all say, we all hate savior, we all hate to have to hate savior because we all wish he didn't do the shit that he did, however, life goes on, savior took a hit for what he had done and there's not much else we can do than be satisfied with that, you can't prevent someone from pursuing a hobby, it's practically impossible and if people want to pay him for lessons, then all the power to them, this shouldn't affect e-Sports in anyway and nor should we really care about it.
By all means, hate on savior, but based on what I said above... I don't think this merits a huge discussion, obviously there will be haters and fan boys, both think they have credit to what they say, perhaps only one side does, perhaps neither do. I won't comment on that being as by us hating on each other over what savior has done accomplishes nothing. In fact, it further deepens the wound. Please stop debating about savior.. it creates a polarized community which we really don't need.
Should I take this seriously? Because with what happened during streaming, I can't honestly tell if you're just trying to make yourself sound smart or trying to make a valid argument.
With that being said, due to the natural way of development of games, Brood War will not live on forever as a professional sport (unless something crazy happens) nor would it have if sAviOr never existed. Brood War is more threatened by it's natural successor that being, Starcraft 2 and in the end, e-Sports will move on... Sure, none of us Brood War fans want to see Brood War die and we'll do everything in our power to keep it a live, however, be it 2 years, be it 10 years, professional Brood War will come to an end, but it won't be due to sAviOr, it'll be due to the natural succession in e-Sports. And, when the new generation of gamers blossom, the scandals and scars created by sAviOr, while they will be heard, they will fall on deaf ears because no one cares about events when they were not around to see them. This much is pretty well fact, shown throughout history (Some things taking more generations to recover from than others).
I'd say this is demonstrably false since WC3 (nor any other game coming out inf 10 years or so) managed to replace replace BW.
On March 30 2012 17:54 supernovamaniac wrote: Should I take this seriously? Because with what happened during streaming, I can't honestly tell if you're just trying to make yourself sound smart or trying to make a valid argument.
Yes. TL is a very serious place and you should always take everyone seriously
On March 30 2012 16:14 GTR wrote: er, korean air/jin air aren't affiliated with cj at all. the owner's daughter just really likes bw (specifically, nada).
I was under the impression that they are all under the Han Jin group.
On March 30 2012 16:14 GTR wrote: er, korean air/jin air aren't affiliated with cj at all. the owner's daughter just really likes bw (specifically, nada).
I was under the impression that they are all under the Han Jin group.
I was wrong?
I don't think chohyunmin mention any affiliation that korean air is under the Han Jin group in her interview .
On March 30 2012 00:19 HwangjaeTerran wrote: I think this is good. How is it bad? Progamers usually don't have high degrees and they must get by somehow. The match fixers have it especially hard. 75$ for 4,5hours of Savior teaching you, which you can divide with your friend, that's just sick good deal.
The court punished the match fixers well enough, there's no need for me to judge them further.
In case you dont know, Korea has a great economy at the moment. Unemployment is ~3%. Its easy for a grown healthy guy like Savior to get a job. There is no need to further poison the scene with his presence, sorry to say.
You mean the job like Perfectman had?
Hey, a lot of people in western countries with unemployment problems would love something like that
On March 30 2012 16:14 GTR wrote: er, korean air/jin air aren't affiliated with cj at all. the owner's daughter just really likes bw (specifically, nada).
I was under the impression that they are all under the Han Jin group.
I was wrong?
I don't think chohyunmin mention any affiliation that korean air is under the Han Jin group in her interview .
lol cheated or not, he's a good player, and he's offering to teach you at a price. if you're rational and needed the lesson for that price, you'd take it.
to put it this way, his punishments has been dealt and received, while judging if he should be your teacher that part of his life is simply irrelevant.
With that being said, due to the natural way of development of games, Brood War will not live on forever as a professional sport (unless something crazy happens) nor would it have if sAviOr never existed. Brood War is more threatened by it's natural successor that being, Starcraft 2 and in the end, e-Sports will move on... Sure, none of us Brood War fans want to see Brood War die and we'll do everything in our power to keep it a live, however, be it 2 years, be it 10 years, professional Brood War will come to an end, but it won't be due to sAviOr, it'll be due to the natural succession in e-Sports. And, when the new generation of gamers blossom, the scandals and scars created by sAviOr, while they will be heard, they will fall on deaf ears because no one cares about events when they were not around to see them. This much is pretty well fact, shown throughout history (Some things taking more generations to recover from than others).
I'd say this is demonstrably false since WC3 (nor any other game coming out inf 10 years or so) managed to replace replace BW.
Eywa is right. Warcraft 3 didn't replace BW because W3 is a horribly boring game to watch. It's very unbalanced, very repetitive, and quite annoying on many aspects.
We are in an economic crisis in case you guys didn't notice and South Korea is suffering as much as any other place. I am in a business dependent on sponsors and I can tell you that they are the first thing that go away when a company is struggling. Nobody needs eSports, it's really a luxury. And there is a ton of money needed to support those leagues and teams.
On top of that, BW is 13 years old. That's sad to say but BW is not chess, it is a game that has had an incredible success for a while, managed to grow as a sport, but won't last forever. Yes it is very good, yes, it is very well designed, but that's the rule with video game, they are dependent on technologies that evolve very quickly. The audience has fallen with the regularity of a swiss clock for years. Just look at Proleague finals statistics.
Nobody cares about Savior. Seriously. Sponsors decide where they invest their money depending of how fashionable an activity is, how much exposure they will get etc... I don't even think Shinhan bank managers who decided they would stop sponsoring PL even know who Savior is. They probably don't give a flying fuck. BW being replaced by other game has much deeper reasons, and if anything it is a bloody mirale the scene has lasted that long.
BW has never been huge. It's a very very very small and fragile niche, it has always been. The fact that it has had a moment of glory doesn't change that fact.
Now if Savior wants to make a few bucks by teaching what he can do the best, good for him. I think he is an idiot to have demolished his career and reputation and as much as I am very uninterested by the person, I still love the great player he has been.
With that being said, due to the natural way of development of games, Brood War will not live on forever as a professional sport (unless something crazy happens) nor would it have if sAviOr never existed. Brood War is more threatened by it's natural successor that being, Starcraft 2 and in the end, e-Sports will move on... Sure, none of us Brood War fans want to see Brood War die and we'll do everything in our power to keep it a live, however, be it 2 years, be it 10 years, professional Brood War will come to an end, but it won't be due to sAviOr, it'll be due to the natural succession in e-Sports. And, when the new generation of gamers blossom, the scandals and scars created by sAviOr, while they will be heard, they will fall on deaf ears because no one cares about events when they were not around to see them. This much is pretty well fact, shown throughout history (Some things taking more generations to recover from than others).
I'd say this is demonstrably false since WC3 (nor any other game coming out inf 10 years or so) managed to replace replace BW.
Eywa is right. Warcraft 3 didn't replace BW because W3 is a horribly boring game to watch. It's very unbalanced, very repetitive, and quite annoying on many aspects.
We are in an economic crisis in case you guys didn't notice and South Korea is suffering as much as any other place. I am in a business dependent on sponsors and I can tell you that they are the first thing that go away when a company is struggling. Nobody needs eSports, it's really a luxury. And there is a ton of money needed to support those leagues and teams.
On top of that, BW is 13 years old. That's sad to say but BW is not chess, it is a game that has had an incredible success for a while, managed to grow as a sport, but won't last forever. Yes it is very good, yes, it is very well designed, but that's the rule with video game, they are dependent on technologies that evolve very quickly. The audience has fallen with the regularity of a swiss clock for years. Just look at Proleague finals statistics.
Nobody cares about Savior. Seriously. Sponsors decide where they invest their money depending of how fashionable an activity is, how much exposure they will get etc... I don't even think Shinhan bank managers who decided they would stop sponsoring PL even know who Savior is. They probably don't give a flying fuck. BW being replaced by other game has much deeper reasons, and if anything it is a bloody mirale the scene has lasted that long.
BW has never been huge. It's a very very very small and fragile niche, it has always been. The fact that it has had a moment of glory doesn't change that fact.
Now if Savior wants to make a few bucks by teaching what he can do the best, good for him. I think he is an idiot to have demolished his career and reputation and as much as I am very uninterested by the person, I still love the great player he has been.
Uhh dude, South Korea is NOT suffering at the moment. Sure, the situation in US and some European countries is bad, but a lot of the world has gone completely past the recession. Like S-Korea has 3,7% unemployment as of 2010. Koreans in general are living a good life, one of the most affordable developed countries and reasonable earnings. Ans so there is a lot of money to be made in E-Sports, the problem is just the massive boom in LoL overwhelming everything else, no? BTW where are the statistics of PL viewers, id be really interestesd in that.
I am very close to savior, like an older brother. He is a player that I always gave trouble in tournaments up until my retirement. During our frequent encounters in Superfight or the MSL, I got close to him. I think it was at Superfight, where we had a long talk. He said the game was no longer fun. I had gone through similar times, so I gave him some advice. I told him to switch races. Around 2006, I had a serious dilemma. I was tired of playing Terran and wanted to enter individual or team leagues as another race. Although it never happened, I felt like I could find meaning in the game once again. So I told that to savior, but after he played against GoRush as Terran once, he stuck with Zerg.
After that, he started slumping, and then I heard about the scandal. I was very sad. Because he couldn't find meaning within the game, he looked elsewhere and had gotten involved with something he shouldn't have gotten involved with.
I personally don't believe that savior fixed matches knowing what kind of damage it would bring to e-sports. I don't think his conscience had developed enough to know that what he was doing was something terrible. For example, a bunch of hackers recently brought down the elections committee's server without thinking of the vast consequences it could have on our nation's politics, and it is similar to that. He didn't realize that what he was doing would hinder the careers of many others involved in the scene.
A lot of players who started playing professionally at an early age are mostly like that. They don't understand the concept of moral hazard. I'm not defending savior, but I want to bring attention to the fact that progamers are young adults who are still mentally underdeveloped and young.
At one point, I regarded savior to be a player who could lead the e-sports scene: he had the talent, and he produced a saga. After the scandal, I lost all respect for him. I tasted bitterness. The industry had invested so much resources and time into him, and all of that had disappeared into thin air. I don't care that savior is streaming on afreeca, or whatever. I believe it is way too early to be doing that, and he needs to spend some time looking back on his actions, but that's not something that anybody can force upon him; he must make that choice himself.
With that being said, due to the natural way of development of games, Brood War will not live on forever as a professional sport (unless something crazy happens) nor would it have if sAviOr never existed. Brood War is more threatened by it's natural successor that being, Starcraft 2 and in the end, e-Sports will move on... Sure, none of us Brood War fans want to see Brood War die and we'll do everything in our power to keep it a live, however, be it 2 years, be it 10 years, professional Brood War will come to an end, but it won't be due to sAviOr, it'll be due to the natural succession in e-Sports. And, when the new generation of gamers blossom, the scandals and scars created by sAviOr, while they will be heard, they will fall on deaf ears because no one cares about events when they were not around to see them. This much is pretty well fact, shown throughout history (Some things taking more generations to recover from than others).
I'd say this is demonstrably false since WC3 (nor any other game coming out inf 10 years or so) managed to replace replace BW.
Eywa is right. Warcraft 3 didn't replace BW because W3 is a horribly boring game to watch. It's very unbalanced, very repetitive, and quite annoying on many aspects.
We are in an economic crisis in case you guys didn't notice and South Korea is suffering as much as any other place. I am in a business dependent on sponsors and I can tell you that they are the first thing that go away when a company is struggling. Nobody needs eSports, it's really a luxury. And there is a ton of money needed to support those leagues and teams.
On top of that, BW is 13 years old. That's sad to say but BW is not chess, it is a game that has had an incredible success for a while, managed to grow as a sport, but won't last forever. Yes it is very good, yes, it is very well designed, but that's the rule with video game, they are dependent on technologies that evolve very quickly. The audience has fallen with the regularity of a swiss clock for years. Just look at Proleague finals statistics.
Nobody cares about Savior. Seriously. Sponsors decide where they invest their money depending of how fashionable an activity is, how much exposure they will get etc... I don't even think Shinhan bank managers who decided they would stop sponsoring PL even know who Savior is. They probably don't give a flying fuck. BW being replaced by other game has much deeper reasons, and if anything it is a bloody mirale the scene has lasted that long.
BW has never been huge. It's a very very very small and fragile niche, it has always been. The fact that it has had a moment of glory doesn't change that fact.
Now if Savior wants to make a few bucks by teaching what he can do the best, good for him. I think he is an idiot to have demolished his career and reputation and as much as I am very uninterested by the person, I still love the great player he has been.
Uhh dude, South Korea is NOT suffering at the moment. Sure, the situation in US and some European countries is bad, but a lot of the world has gone completely past the recession. Like S-Korea has 3,7% unemployment as of 2010. Koreans in general are living a good life, one of the most affordable developed countries and reasonable earnings. Ans so there is a lot of money to be made in E-Sports, the problem is just the massive boom in LoL overwhelming everything else, no? BTW where are the statistics of PL viewers, id be really interestesd in that.
Every country in the world has suffered the financial crisis. SOuth Korea recovers quickly and has done better than most other country, but there have suffered a lot like everybody else. Maybe you noticed, BW started really struggling in 2009.
"Growth moderated to about 4-5% annually between 2003 and 2007. With the global economic downturn in late 2008, South Korean GDP growth slowed to 0.2% in 2009."
MAYBE the slow down of the national and global economy in 2009 and the mechanical slow down of any kind of sponsorship for basically anything,, the fact that Starcraft 2 has come out, the legal battle between Kespa and Blizzard that made the future of all BW scene uncertain is a bit more of a factor than a "scandal" that interested a few thousand nerds about a couple of has been players losing on purpose for a pathetic sum of money.
OK, yeah, late 2008 and first half of 2009 was bad everywhere in the world. But after that, the economy has been great in a lot of countries, including Korea. So i dont think that is a cause of problems for BW for the last ~33 months
With that being said, due to the natural way of development of games, Brood War will not live on forever as a professional sport (unless something crazy happens) nor would it have if sAviOr never existed. Brood War is more threatened by it's natural successor that being, Starcraft 2 and in the end, e-Sports will move on... Sure, none of us Brood War fans want to see Brood War die and we'll do everything in our power to keep it a live, however, be it 2 years, be it 10 years, professional Brood War will come to an end, but it won't be due to sAviOr, it'll be due to the natural succession in e-Sports. And, when the new generation of gamers blossom, the scandals and scars created by sAviOr, while they will be heard, they will fall on deaf ears because no one cares about events when they were not around to see them. This much is pretty well fact, shown throughout history (Some things taking more generations to recover from than others).
I'd say this is demonstrably false since WC3 (nor any other game coming out inf 10 years or so) managed to replace replace BW.
Eywa is right. Warcraft 3 didn't replace BW because W3 is a horribly boring game to watch. It's very unbalanced, very repetitive, and quite annoying on many aspects.
We are in an economic crisis in case you guys didn't notice and South Korea is suffering as much as any other place. I am in a business dependent on sponsors and I can tell you that they are the first thing that go away when a company is struggling. Nobody needs eSports, it's really a luxury. And there is a ton of money needed to support those leagues and teams.
On top of that, BW is 13 years old. That's sad to say but BW is not chess, it is a game that has had an incredible success for a while, managed to grow as a sport, but won't last forever. Yes it is very good, yes, it is very well designed, but that's the rule with video game, they are dependent on technologies that evolve very quickly. The audience has fallen with the regularity of a swiss clock for years. Just look at Proleague finals statistics.
Nobody cares about Savior. Seriously. Sponsors decide where they invest their money depending of how fashionable an activity is, how much exposure they will get etc... I don't even think Shinhan bank managers who decided they would stop sponsoring PL even know who Savior is. They probably don't give a flying fuck. BW being replaced by other game has much deeper reasons, and if anything it is a bloody mirale the scene has lasted that long.
BW has never been huge. It's a very very very small and fragile niche, it has always been. The fact that it has had a moment of glory doesn't change that fact.
Now if Savior wants to make a few bucks by teaching what he can do the best, good for him. I think he is an idiot to have demolished his career and reputation and as much as I am very uninterested by the person, I still love the great player he has been.
Uhh dude, South Korea is NOT suffering at the moment. Sure, the situation in US and some European countries is bad, but a lot of the world has gone completely past the recession. Like S-Korea has 3,7% unemployment as of 2010. Koreans in general are living a good life, one of the most affordable developed countries and reasonable earnings. Ans so there is a lot of money to be made in E-Sports, the problem is just the massive boom in LoL overwhelming everything else, no? BTW where are the statistics of PL viewers, id be really interestesd in that.
Every country in the world has suffered the financial crisis. SOuth Korea recovers quickly and has done better than most other country, but there have suffered a lot like everybody else. Maybe you noticed, BW started really struggling in 2009.
"Growth moderated to about 4-5% annually between 2003 and 2007. With the global economic downturn in late 2008, South Korean GDP growth slowed to 0.2% in 2009."
MAYBE the slow down of the national and global economy in 2009 and the mechanical slow down of any kind of sponsorship for basically anything,, the fact that Starcraft 2 has come out, the legal battle between Kespa and Blizzard that made the future of all BW scene uncertain is a bit more of a factor than a "scandal" that interested a few thousand nerds about a couple of has been players losing on purpose for a pathetic sum of money.
While i don't totally disagree with you, i believe you are downplaying that incident quite a bit.
The then-current Bonjwa + a nontrivial amount of other A-teamers doing what they did impact the legitimacy of the scene a lot. Even more so if the amount of money is a "pathetic sum", seeing as their action clearly implied that even that pathetic sum wass more important than the their, or their teams' victory.
With that being said, due to the natural way of development of games, Brood War will not live on forever as a professional sport (unless something crazy happens) nor would it have if sAviOr never existed. Brood War is more threatened by it's natural successor that being, Starcraft 2 and in the end, e-Sports will move on... Sure, none of us Brood War fans want to see Brood War die and we'll do everything in our power to keep it a live, however, be it 2 years, be it 10 years, professional Brood War will come to an end, but it won't be due to sAviOr, it'll be due to the natural succession in e-Sports. And, when the new generation of gamers blossom, the scandals and scars created by sAviOr, while they will be heard, they will fall on deaf ears because no one cares about events when they were not around to see them. This much is pretty well fact, shown throughout history (Some things taking more generations to recover from than others).
I'd say this is demonstrably false since WC3 (nor any other game coming out inf 10 years or so) managed to replace replace BW.
Eywa is right. Warcraft 3 didn't replace BW because W3 is a horribly boring game to watch. It's very unbalanced, very repetitive, and quite annoying on many aspects.
We are in an economic crisis in case you guys didn't notice and South Korea is suffering as much as any other place. I am in a business dependent on sponsors and I can tell you that they are the first thing that go away when a company is struggling. Nobody needs eSports, it's really a luxury. And there is a ton of money needed to support those leagues and teams.
On top of that, BW is 13 years old. That's sad to say but BW is not chess, it is a game that has had an incredible success for a while, managed to grow as a sport, but won't last forever. Yes it is very good, yes, it is very well designed, but that's the rule with video game, they are dependent on technologies that evolve very quickly. The audience has fallen with the regularity of a swiss clock for years. Just look at Proleague finals statistics.
Nobody cares about Savior. Seriously. Sponsors decide where they invest their money depending of how fashionable an activity is, how much exposure they will get etc... I don't even think Shinhan bank managers who decided they would stop sponsoring PL even know who Savior is. They probably don't give a flying fuck. BW being replaced by other game has much deeper reasons, and if anything it is a bloody mirale the scene has lasted that long.
BW has never been huge. It's a very very very small and fragile niche, it has always been. The fact that it has had a moment of glory doesn't change that fact.
Now if Savior wants to make a few bucks by teaching what he can do the best, good for him. I think he is an idiot to have demolished his career and reputation and as much as I am very uninterested by the person, I still love the great player he has been.
Uhh dude, South Korea is NOT suffering at the moment. Sure, the situation in US and some European countries is bad, but a lot of the world has gone completely past the recession. Like S-Korea has 3,7% unemployment as of 2010. Koreans in general are living a good life, one of the most affordable developed countries and reasonable earnings. Ans so there is a lot of money to be made in E-Sports, the problem is just the massive boom in LoL overwhelming everything else, no? BTW where are the statistics of PL viewers, id be really interestesd in that.
Every country in the world has suffered the financial crisis. SOuth Korea recovers quickly and has done better than most other country, but there have suffered a lot like everybody else. Maybe you noticed, BW started really struggling in 2009.
"Growth moderated to about 4-5% annually between 2003 and 2007. With the global economic downturn in late 2008, South Korean GDP growth slowed to 0.2% in 2009."
MAYBE the slow down of the national and global economy in 2009 and the mechanical slow down of any kind of sponsorship for basically anything,, the fact that Starcraft 2 has come out, the legal battle between Kespa and Blizzard that made the future of all BW scene uncertain is a bit more of a factor than a "scandal" that interested a few thousand nerds about a couple of has been players losing on purpose for a pathetic sum of money.
While i don't totally disagree with you, i believe you are downplaying that incident quite a bit.
The then-current Bonjwa + a nontrivial amount of other A-teamers doing what they did impact the legitimacy of the scene a lot. Even more so if the amount of money is a "pathetic sum", seeing as their action clearly implied that even that pathetic sum wass more important than the their, or their teams' victory.
Of course it's not great, of course it made everybody sad.
Saying that they are responsible for the death of BW when it can be explained by very solid and absolutely logical and structural reasons is just silly. Blame the financial situation, the crisis, the conflict with Kespa, Starcraft 2, a game becoming very old and technologically outdated.
Don't you think it's logical a game starts to decline when young people don't really play it anymore, or at least less and less. Yeah, 2012 kids don't buy Brood War when they want a new video game. Maybe Starcraft 2. Anyway. Savior is reason n°53452664 why BW is struggling. He is as much responsible for the decline of BW as this front line soldier who fucked up something with a grenade or whatever is responsible for the defeat of Waterloo.
If you think Shinhan Bank takes decision about sponsoring with million dollars a cultural or sport industry based on the cheating of a couple of has been players, you are plainly wrong. That's not how it works.
Finally, Savior had been slumping hardcore for two or three years when the scandal was revealed. He was not even an important figure of the scene anymore except for regular "come back" where he would steal a game from a mediocre opponent and everybody would have an erection, before going into a losing streak again.
On March 30 2012 19:21 storkfan wrote: OK, yeah, late 2008 and first half of 2009 was bad everywhere in the world. But after that, the economy has been great in a lot of countries, including Korea. So i dont think that is a cause of problems for BW for the last ~33 months
No but it's one factor. The economy has had a horrible year in 2009, and although it's doing better, the growth is not nearly at the level it was in 2003 - 2008. Check my CIA link again. On top of that 2009 has been the first annus horribile of the BW pro-scene. Since the game has no future in the long term for very obvious reasons, it's unlikely corporations start again to invest money into it. They would rather go to games, sports or activities that will grow over the years.
Simple as that: Brood War couldn't hold for ever. Accept it or not, that's just a fact. There is a zillion reasons why it has started to fall inn 2009, and the Savior scandal is one of these factors, but an xetremely small, unimportant and secundary reason compared to a brutal although momentary slowdown of the economy, an exetremely serious IP conflict with Blizzard, an audience getting smaller and smaller every year and a complete loss of interest by the average gamer with the rise of other games, including SC2.
Leave Savior alone. Seriously. This gross overexageration of the impact of his offence is ridiculous.
With that being said, due to the natural way of development of games, Brood War will not live on forever as a professional sport (unless something crazy happens) nor would it have if sAviOr never existed. Brood War is more threatened by it's natural successor that being, Starcraft 2 and in the end, e-Sports will move on... Sure, none of us Brood War fans want to see Brood War die and we'll do everything in our power to keep it a live, however, be it 2 years, be it 10 years, professional Brood War will come to an end, but it won't be due to sAviOr, it'll be due to the natural succession in e-Sports. And, when the new generation of gamers blossom, the scandals and scars created by sAviOr, while they will be heard, they will fall on deaf ears because no one cares about events when they were not around to see them. This much is pretty well fact, shown throughout history (Some things taking more generations to recover from than others).
I'd say this is demonstrably false since WC3 (nor any other game coming out inf 10 years or so) managed to replace replace BW.
Eywa is right. Warcraft 3 didn't replace BW because W3 is a horribly boring game to watch. It's very unbalanced, very repetitive, and quite annoying on many aspects.
We are in an economic crisis in case you guys didn't notice and South Korea is suffering as much as any other place. I am in a business dependent on sponsors and I can tell you that they are the first thing that go away when a company is struggling. Nobody needs eSports, it's really a luxury. And there is a ton of money needed to support those leagues and teams.
On top of that, BW is 13 years old. That's sad to say but BW is not chess, it is a game that has had an incredible success for a while, managed to grow as a sport, but won't last forever. Yes it is very good, yes, it is very well designed, but that's the rule with video game, they are dependent on technologies that evolve very quickly. The audience has fallen with the regularity of a swiss clock for years. Just look at Proleague finals statistics.
Nobody cares about Savior. Seriously. Sponsors decide where they invest their money depending of how fashionable an activity is, how much exposure they will get etc... I don't even think Shinhan bank managers who decided they would stop sponsoring PL even know who Savior is. They probably don't give a flying fuck. BW being replaced by other game has much deeper reasons, and if anything it is a bloody mirale the scene has lasted that long.
BW has never been huge. It's a very very very small and fragile niche, it has always been. The fact that it has had a moment of glory doesn't change that fact.
Now if Savior wants to make a few bucks by teaching what he can do the best, good for him. I think he is an idiot to have demolished his career and reputation and as much as I am very uninterested by the person, I still love the great player he has been.
Uhh dude, South Korea is NOT suffering at the moment. Sure, the situation in US and some European countries is bad, but a lot of the world has gone completely past the recession. Like S-Korea has 3,7% unemployment as of 2010. Koreans in general are living a good life, one of the most affordable developed countries and reasonable earnings. Ans so there is a lot of money to be made in E-Sports, the problem is just the massive boom in LoL overwhelming everything else, no? BTW where are the statistics of PL viewers, id be really interestesd in that.
Every country in the world has suffered the financial crisis. SOuth Korea recovers quickly and has done better than most other country, but there have suffered a lot like everybody else. Maybe you noticed, BW started really struggling in 2009.
"Growth moderated to about 4-5% annually between 2003 and 2007. With the global economic downturn in late 2008, South Korean GDP growth slowed to 0.2% in 2009."
MAYBE the slow down of the national and global economy in 2009 and the mechanical slow down of any kind of sponsorship for basically anything,, the fact that Starcraft 2 has come out, the legal battle between Kespa and Blizzard that made the future of all BW scene uncertain is a bit more of a factor than a "scandal" that interested a few thousand nerds about a couple of has been players losing on purpose for a pathetic sum of money.
While i don't totally disagree with you, i believe you are downplaying that incident quite a bit.
The then-current Bonjwa + a nontrivial amount of other A-teamers doing what they did impact the legitimacy of the scene a lot. Even more so if the amount of money is a "pathetic sum", seeing as their action clearly implied that even that pathetic sum wass more important than the their, or their teams' victory.
Of course it's not great, of course it made everybody sad.
Saying that they are responsible for the death of BW when it can be explained by very solid and absolutely logical and structural reasons is just silly. Blame the financial situation, the crisis, the conflict with Kespa, Starcraft 2, a game becoming very old and technologically outdated.
Don't you think it's logical a game starts to decline when young people don't really play it anymore, or at least less and less. Yeah, 2012 kids don't buy Brood War when they want a new video game. Maybe Starcraft 2. Anyway. Savior is reason n°53452664 why BW is struggling. He is as much responsible for the decline of BW as this front line soldier who fucked up something with a grenade or whatever is responsible for the defeat of Waterloo.
If you think Shinhan Bank takes decision about sponsoring with million dollars a cultural or sport industry based on the cheating of a couple of has been players, you are plainly wrong. That's not how it works.
Finally, Savior had been slumping hardcore for two or three years when the scandal was revealed. He was not even an important figure of the scene anymore except for regular "come back" where he would steal a game from a mediocre opponent and everybody would have an erection, before going into a losing streak again.
Well I do agree that this front line solider went kamikaze in to his own barracks and took down a lot of players with him . Looks pretty significant from my point of view .
With that being said, due to the natural way of development of games, Brood War will not live on forever as a professional sport (unless something crazy happens) nor would it have if sAviOr never existed. Brood War is more threatened by it's natural successor that being, Starcraft 2 and in the end, e-Sports will move on... Sure, none of us Brood War fans want to see Brood War die and we'll do everything in our power to keep it a live, however, be it 2 years, be it 10 years, professional Brood War will come to an end, but it won't be due to sAviOr, it'll be due to the natural succession in e-Sports. And, when the new generation of gamers blossom, the scandals and scars created by sAviOr, while they will be heard, they will fall on deaf ears because no one cares about events when they were not around to see them. This much is pretty well fact, shown throughout history (Some things taking more generations to recover from than others).
I'd say this is demonstrably false since WC3 (nor any other game coming out inf 10 years or so) managed to replace replace BW.
Eywa is right. Warcraft 3 didn't replace BW because W3 is a horribly boring game to watch. It's very unbalanced, very repetitive, and quite annoying on many aspects.
We are in an economic crisis in case you guys didn't notice and South Korea is suffering as much as any other place. I am in a business dependent on sponsors and I can tell you that they are the first thing that go away when a company is struggling. Nobody needs eSports, it's really a luxury. And there is a ton of money needed to support those leagues and teams.
On top of that, BW is 13 years old. That's sad to say but BW is not chess, it is a game that has had an incredible success for a while, managed to grow as a sport, but won't last forever. Yes it is very good, yes, it is very well designed, but that's the rule with video game, they are dependent on technologies that evolve very quickly. The audience has fallen with the regularity of a swiss clock for years. Just look at Proleague finals statistics.
Nobody cares about Savior. Seriously. Sponsors decide where they invest their money depending of how fashionable an activity is, how much exposure they will get etc... I don't even think Shinhan bank managers who decided they would stop sponsoring PL even know who Savior is. They probably don't give a flying fuck. BW being replaced by other game has much deeper reasons, and if anything it is a bloody mirale the scene has lasted that long.
BW has never been huge. It's a very very very small and fragile niche, it has always been. The fact that it has had a moment of glory doesn't change that fact.
Now if Savior wants to make a few bucks by teaching what he can do the best, good for him. I think he is an idiot to have demolished his career and reputation and as much as I am very uninterested by the person, I still love the great player he has been.
Uhh dude, South Korea is NOT suffering at the moment. Sure, the situation in US and some European countries is bad, but a lot of the world has gone completely past the recession. Like S-Korea has 3,7% unemployment as of 2010. Koreans in general are living a good life, one of the most affordable developed countries and reasonable earnings. Ans so there is a lot of money to be made in E-Sports, the problem is just the massive boom in LoL overwhelming everything else, no? BTW where are the statistics of PL viewers, id be really interestesd in that.
Every country in the world has suffered the financial crisis. SOuth Korea recovers quickly and has done better than most other country, but there have suffered a lot like everybody else. Maybe you noticed, BW started really struggling in 2009.
"Growth moderated to about 4-5% annually between 2003 and 2007. With the global economic downturn in late 2008, South Korean GDP growth slowed to 0.2% in 2009."
MAYBE the slow down of the national and global economy in 2009 and the mechanical slow down of any kind of sponsorship for basically anything,, the fact that Starcraft 2 has come out, the legal battle between Kespa and Blizzard that made the future of all BW scene uncertain is a bit more of a factor than a "scandal" that interested a few thousand nerds about a couple of has been players losing on purpose for a pathetic sum of money.
While i don't totally disagree with you, i believe you are downplaying that incident quite a bit.
The then-current Bonjwa + a nontrivial amount of other A-teamers doing what they did impact the legitimacy of the scene a lot. Even more so if the amount of money is a "pathetic sum", seeing as their action clearly implied that even that pathetic sum wass more important than the their, or their teams' victory.
Of course it's not great, of course it made everybody sad.
Saying that they are responsible for the death of BW when it can be explained by very solid and absolutely logical and structural reasons is just silly. Blame the financial situation, the crisis, the conflict with Kespa, Starcraft 2, a game becoming very old and technologically outdated.
Don't you think it's logical a game starts to decline when young people don't really play it anymore, or at least less and less. Yeah, 2012 kids don't buy Brood War when they want a new video game. Maybe Starcraft 2. Anyway. Savior is reason n°53452664 why BW is struggling. He is as much responsible for the decline of BW as this front line soldier who fucked up something with a grenade or whatever is responsible for the defeat of Waterloo.
If you think Shinhan Bank takes decision about sponsoring with million dollars a cultural or sport industry based on the cheating of a couple of has been players, you are plainly wrong. That's not how it works.
Finally, Savior had been slumping hardcore for two or three years when the scandal was revealed. He was not even an important figure of the scene anymore except for regular "come back" where he would steal a game from a mediocre opponent and everybody would have an erection, before going into a losing streak again.
Well I do agree that this front line solider went kamikaze in to his own barracks and took down a lot of players with him . Looks pretty significant from my point of view .
Yeah, especially in a battle involving hundred of thousand soldiers from both sides, enormous armies, whole countries at war since 15 years on all Europe. Yeah, the comparison is about right.
Then you have the veterans saying "Oh yeah, we lost because of Capitaine Gerard Trouducul who blew up this barrack" while the reason are of historical scale.
So yeah, inn our comparison, Gerard Trouducul didn't help because he killed 15 of his fellow soldiers and that affected the moral of his company, but the veterans ranting about him afterward are just misunderstaing completely what has really happened because the fact they lived the incident make them grossly overestimating its real importance.
With that being said, due to the natural way of development of games, Brood War will not live on forever as a professional sport (unless something crazy happens) nor would it have if sAviOr never existed. Brood War is more threatened by it's natural successor that being, Starcraft 2 and in the end, e-Sports will move on... Sure, none of us Brood War fans want to see Brood War die and we'll do everything in our power to keep it a live, however, be it 2 years, be it 10 years, professional Brood War will come to an end, but it won't be due to sAviOr, it'll be due to the natural succession in e-Sports. And, when the new generation of gamers blossom, the scandals and scars created by sAviOr, while they will be heard, they will fall on deaf ears because no one cares about events when they were not around to see them. This much is pretty well fact, shown throughout history (Some things taking more generations to recover from than others).
I'd say this is demonstrably false since WC3 (nor any other game coming out inf 10 years or so) managed to replace replace BW.
Eywa is right. Warcraft 3 didn't replace BW because W3 is a horribly boring game to watch. It's very unbalanced, very repetitive, and quite annoying on many aspects.
We are in an economic crisis in case you guys didn't notice and South Korea is suffering as much as any other place. I am in a business dependent on sponsors and I can tell you that they are the first thing that go away when a company is struggling. Nobody needs eSports, it's really a luxury. And there is a ton of money needed to support those leagues and teams.
On top of that, BW is 13 years old. That's sad to say but BW is not chess, it is a game that has had an incredible success for a while, managed to grow as a sport, but won't last forever. Yes it is very good, yes, it is very well designed, but that's the rule with video game, they are dependent on technologies that evolve very quickly. The audience has fallen with the regularity of a swiss clock for years. Just look at Proleague finals statistics.
Nobody cares about Savior. Seriously. Sponsors decide where they invest their money depending of how fashionable an activity is, how much exposure they will get etc... I don't even think Shinhan bank managers who decided they would stop sponsoring PL even know who Savior is. They probably don't give a flying fuck. BW being replaced by other game has much deeper reasons, and if anything it is a bloody mirale the scene has lasted that long.
BW has never been huge. It's a very very very small and fragile niche, it has always been. The fact that it has had a moment of glory doesn't change that fact.
Now if Savior wants to make a few bucks by teaching what he can do the best, good for him. I think he is an idiot to have demolished his career and reputation and as much as I am very uninterested by the person, I still love the great player he has been.
Uhh dude, South Korea is NOT suffering at the moment. Sure, the situation in US and some European countries is bad, but a lot of the world has gone completely past the recession. Like S-Korea has 3,7% unemployment as of 2010. Koreans in general are living a good life, one of the most affordable developed countries and reasonable earnings. Ans so there is a lot of money to be made in E-Sports, the problem is just the massive boom in LoL overwhelming everything else, no? BTW where are the statistics of PL viewers, id be really interestesd in that.
Every country in the world has suffered the financial crisis. SOuth Korea recovers quickly and has done better than most other country, but there have suffered a lot like everybody else. Maybe you noticed, BW started really struggling in 2009.
"Growth moderated to about 4-5% annually between 2003 and 2007. With the global economic downturn in late 2008, South Korean GDP growth slowed to 0.2% in 2009."
MAYBE the slow down of the national and global economy in 2009 and the mechanical slow down of any kind of sponsorship for basically anything,, the fact that Starcraft 2 has come out, the legal battle between Kespa and Blizzard that made the future of all BW scene uncertain is a bit more of a factor than a "scandal" that interested a few thousand nerds about a couple of has been players losing on purpose for a pathetic sum of money.
While i don't totally disagree with you, i believe you are downplaying that incident quite a bit.
The then-current Bonjwa + a nontrivial amount of other A-teamers doing what they did impact the legitimacy of the scene a lot. Even more so if the amount of money is a "pathetic sum", seeing as their action clearly implied that even that pathetic sum wass more important than the their, or their teams' victory.
Of course it's not great, of course it made everybody sad.
Saying that they are responsible for the death of BW when it can be explained by very solid and absolutely logical and structural reasons is just silly. Blame the financial situation, the crisis, the conflict with Kespa, Starcraft 2, a game becoming very old and technologically outdated.
Don't you think it's logical a game starts to decline when young people don't really play it anymore, or at least less and less. Yeah, 2012 kids don't buy Brood War when they want a new video game. Maybe Starcraft 2. Anyway. Savior is reason n°53452664 why BW is struggling. He is as much responsible for the decline of BW as this front line soldier who fucked up something with a grenade or whatever is responsible for the defeat of Waterloo.
If you think Shinhan Bank takes decision about sponsoring with million dollars a cultural or sport industry based on the cheating of a couple of has been players, you are plainly wrong. That's not how it works.
Finally, Savior had been slumping hardcore for two or three years when the scandal was revealed. He was not even an important figure of the scene anymore except for regular "come back" where he would steal a game from a mediocre opponent and everybody would have an erection, before going into a losing streak again.
Well I do agree that this front line solider went kamikaze in to his own barracks and took down a lot of players with him . Looks pretty significant from my point of view .
Yeah, especially in a battle involving hundred of thousand soldiers from both sides, enormous armies, whole countries at war since 15 years on all Europe. Yeah, the comparison is about right.
Then you have the veterans saying "Oh yeah, we lost because of Capitaine Gerard Trouducul who blew up this barrack" while the reason are of historical scale.
Looks like you don't get it just replace the front line solider with savior and you will see how terrible the situation is when broodwar isn't really fighting a global war right now.Unfortunately your military example doesn't really fit the situation right here when bw isn't really on a enigmatic level of popularity as it's only situated in korea . So every lost is pretty significant in my opinion.
With that being said, due to the natural way of development of games, Brood War will not live on forever as a professional sport (unless something crazy happens) nor would it have if sAviOr never existed. Brood War is more threatened by it's natural successor that being, Starcraft 2 and in the end, e-Sports will move on... Sure, none of us Brood War fans want to see Brood War die and we'll do everything in our power to keep it a live, however, be it 2 years, be it 10 years, professional Brood War will come to an end, but it won't be due to sAviOr, it'll be due to the natural succession in e-Sports. And, when the new generation of gamers blossom, the scandals and scars created by sAviOr, while they will be heard, they will fall on deaf ears because no one cares about events when they were not around to see them. This much is pretty well fact, shown throughout history (Some things taking more generations to recover from than others).
I'd say this is demonstrably false since WC3 (nor any other game coming out inf 10 years or so) managed to replace replace BW.
Eywa is right. Warcraft 3 didn't replace BW because W3 is a horribly boring game to watch. It's very unbalanced, very repetitive, and quite annoying on many aspects.
We are in an economic crisis in case you guys didn't notice and South Korea is suffering as much as any other place. I am in a business dependent on sponsors and I can tell you that they are the first thing that go away when a company is struggling. Nobody needs eSports, it's really a luxury. And there is a ton of money needed to support those leagues and teams.
On top of that, BW is 13 years old. That's sad to say but BW is not chess, it is a game that has had an incredible success for a while, managed to grow as a sport, but won't last forever. Yes it is very good, yes, it is very well designed, but that's the rule with video game, they are dependent on technologies that evolve very quickly. The audience has fallen with the regularity of a swiss clock for years. Just look at Proleague finals statistics.
Nobody cares about Savior. Seriously. Sponsors decide where they invest their money depending of how fashionable an activity is, how much exposure they will get etc... I don't even think Shinhan bank managers who decided they would stop sponsoring PL even know who Savior is. They probably don't give a flying fuck. BW being replaced by other game has much deeper reasons, and if anything it is a bloody mirale the scene has lasted that long.
BW has never been huge. It's a very very very small and fragile niche, it has always been. The fact that it has had a moment of glory doesn't change that fact.
Now if Savior wants to make a few bucks by teaching what he can do the best, good for him. I think he is an idiot to have demolished his career and reputation and as much as I am very uninterested by the person, I still love the great player he has been.
Uhh dude, South Korea is NOT suffering at the moment. Sure, the situation in US and some European countries is bad, but a lot of the world has gone completely past the recession. Like S-Korea has 3,7% unemployment as of 2010. Koreans in general are living a good life, one of the most affordable developed countries and reasonable earnings. Ans so there is a lot of money to be made in E-Sports, the problem is just the massive boom in LoL overwhelming everything else, no? BTW where are the statistics of PL viewers, id be really interestesd in that.
Every country in the world has suffered the financial crisis. SOuth Korea recovers quickly and has done better than most other country, but there have suffered a lot like everybody else. Maybe you noticed, BW started really struggling in 2009.
"Growth moderated to about 4-5% annually between 2003 and 2007. With the global economic downturn in late 2008, South Korean GDP growth slowed to 0.2% in 2009."
MAYBE the slow down of the national and global economy in 2009 and the mechanical slow down of any kind of sponsorship for basically anything,, the fact that Starcraft 2 has come out, the legal battle between Kespa and Blizzard that made the future of all BW scene uncertain is a bit more of a factor than a "scandal" that interested a few thousand nerds about a couple of has been players losing on purpose for a pathetic sum of money.
While i don't totally disagree with you, i believe you are downplaying that incident quite a bit.
The then-current Bonjwa + a nontrivial amount of other A-teamers doing what they did impact the legitimacy of the scene a lot. Even more so if the amount of money is a "pathetic sum", seeing as their action clearly implied that even that pathetic sum wass more important than the their, or their teams' victory.
Of course it's not great, of course it made everybody sad.
Saying that they are responsible for the death of BW when it can be explained by very solid and absolutely logical and structural reasons is just silly. Blame the financial situation, the crisis, the conflict with Kespa, Starcraft 2, a game becoming very old and technologically outdated.
Don't you think it's logical a game starts to decline when young people don't really play it anymore, or at least less and less. Yeah, 2012 kids don't buy Brood War when they want a new video game. Maybe Starcraft 2. Anyway. Savior is reason n°53452664 why BW is struggling. He is as much responsible for the decline of BW as this front line soldier who fucked up something with a grenade or whatever is responsible for the defeat of Waterloo.
If you think Shinhan Bank takes decision about sponsoring with million dollars a cultural or sport industry based on the cheating of a couple of has been players, you are plainly wrong. That's not how it works.
Finally, Savior had been slumping hardcore for two or three years when the scandal was revealed. He was not even an important figure of the scene anymore except for regular "come back" where he would steal a game from a mediocre opponent and everybody would have an erection, before going into a losing streak again.
Well I do agree that this front line solider went kamikaze in to his own barracks and took down a lot of players with him . Looks pretty significant from my point of view .
Yeah, especially in a battle involving hundred of thousand soldiers from both sides, enormous armies, whole countries at war since 15 years on all Europe. Yeah, the comparison is about right.
Then you have the veterans saying "Oh yeah, we lost because of Capitaine Gerard Trouducul who blew up this barrack" while the reason are of historical scale.
So yeah, inn our comparison, Gerard Trouducul didn't help because he killed 15 of his fellow soldiers and that affected the moral of his company, but the veterans ranting about him afterward are just misunderstaing completely what has really happened because the fact they lived the incident make them grossly overestimating its real importance.
Savior though, kamikaze-ed and took down 10% of the total amount of soldiers with him. Brood War didn't have hundreds of thousands, we have approximately 100 players active across 12 teams. The morale impact was harder too.
Again, im not saying you are wrong, but I still think you underestimate its importance.
On March 30 2012 19:21 storkfan wrote: OK, yeah, late 2008 and first half of 2009 was bad everywhere in the world. But after that, the economy has been great in a lot of countries, including Korea. So i dont think that is a cause of problems for BW for the last ~33 months
No but it's one factor. The economy has had a horrible year in 2009, and although it's doing better, the growth is not nearly at the level it was in 2003 - 2008. Check my CIA link again. On top of that 2009 has been the first annus horribile of the BW pro-scene. Since the game has no future in the long term for very obvious reasons, it's unlikely corporations start again to invest money into it. They would rather go to games, sports or activities that will grow over the years.
Simple as that: Brood War couldn't hold for ever. Accept it or not, that's just a fact. There is a zillion reasons why it has started to fall inn 2009, and the Savior scandal is one of these factors, but an xetremely small, unimportant and secundary reason compared to a brutal although momentary slowdown of the economy, an exetremely serious IP conflict with Blizzard, an audience getting smaller and smaller every year and a complete loss of interest by the average gamer with the rise of other games, including SC2.
Leave Savior alone. Seriously. This gross overexageration of the impact of his offence is ridiculous.
Leave Savior alone?Are you serious? This rat deserves damnation as long as he stays in the SC scene, this way or another.Explanations such as
xetremely small, unimportant and secundary reason compared to a brutal although momentary slowdown of the economy
are confusing for a simple reason: their significance isn't important, only thing that counts is that he actually did these things,justifying his actions by decreasing their unquestionable impact on the fall of BW is wrong. Of course, it wasn't only factor as you pointed out earlier, not even main one, but you underestimate the effect of such scandal involving such iconic figure (no matter in what shape he was, he was still pro) in esports environment. Crime is crime, can't blame other people for remembering about the past when you see him making money off naive people from the source he's been banned from.
As all the sc2 foreign pros who coach at ridiculously high prices would say to justify what they are doing, 'supply and demand, if you don't like it, just don't buy it', right?
What i mean by that is, what he is doing has as much morality as what other people are doing.
Savior is a match fixer what he did was wrong. but guess what- he stood trial in a court for his actions. He received his punishment, he got banned from pro gaming, destroyed his reputation with which he could charge more for his lessons. So he has paid his debt for his actions. Should he be loved and forgiven now- no that is up for each individual, but he owes nobody nothing, he has paid for everything! So you might not like his past and current actions, but you have no right to say what he can or can not do.
Really, he fucked up big time and not only his career, but other careers and the whole scene. I am not talking about the others go.go, upmagic, luxury etc they were connected with matchfixing just as savior did and so it's their own fault. I am talking about guys who lost their jobs because teams were disbanding, Hiya, Anytime and others.
However what he is doing is not in the slightest wrong right now. I can bet he is still with BW because he loves the game- no one could ever get so great without having great passion for something! (and no the match fixing does not disprove this, he might want to watch the world burn, or he made some stupid decisions or got caught up in some shit he could not get out... everything is possible.)
The thing is while a lot of people are still bitter and angry at him (and rightfully so), his streaming and coaching only helps the scene. He brings more viewers and players to the scene and there is nothing wrong about that. And I highly doubt he is going to teach his students how to convincingly lose games so his presence is not poisonous.
Also that paid fansite thing, as pointed out earlier, is not to milk anyone, but to keep the haters away.
Still if you add all the good and all the bad he has done he is deep in the red for me. But that does not make what he is doing now harmful or not acceptable. If you don't think he deserves making money of the scene- good news you dont have to pay him anything.
On March 29 2012 23:06 GTR wrote: 30k won is quite a lot (compared to the other afreeca bjs) players like eagle/anytime do it for 10-15k won p/hr iirc. that being said, you are learning from probably the greatest strategic zerg ever to play bw.
welp at least it's cheaper than idra.
lol idra charges higher. I rather pay for savior. His terran is probably better tha Idra too.
On March 29 2012 23:06 GTR wrote: 30k won is quite a lot (compared to the other afreeca bjs) players like eagle/anytime do it for 10-15k won p/hr iirc. that being said, you are learning from probably the greatest strategic zerg ever to play bw.
welp at least it's cheaper than idra.
lol idra charges higher. I rather pay for savior. His terran is probably better tha Idra too.
I don't know about his TvP or TvT but his TvZ is really solid as far as I know.
On March 30 2012 22:02 HeaDStrong wrote: The thing is while a lot of people are still bitter and angry at him (and rightfully so), his streaming and coaching only helps the scene. He brings more viewers and players to the scene and there is nothing wrong about that. And I highly doubt he is going to teach his students how to convincingly lose games so his presence is not poisonous.
You're joking aren't you? Viewership has dropped for quite some times, and you expect someone like Savior who drops players out of the scene to bring players back in, as well as viewership?
On March 30 2012 22:02 HeaDStrong wrote: The thing is while a lot of people are still bitter and angry at him (and rightfully so), his streaming and coaching only helps the scene. He brings more viewers and players to the scene and there is nothing wrong about that. And I highly doubt he is going to teach his students how to convincingly lose games so his presence is not poisonous.
You're joking aren't you? Viewership has dropped for quite some times, and you expect someone like Savior who drops players out of the scene to bring players back in, as well as viewership?
No, I am not joking. Again he will not be able to ever repair the damage he did and will never redeem his name. But you have to be blind or completely biased on his past actions not to see that what he is doing now is good for broodwar. If you have arguments that oppose mine please I am willing to listen to them.
I have a feeling that a lot people have some sort of this exaggerated Japanese mentality- "I have dishonored, my family and me! I must go live in a cave and cut my guts open!" Which is ridiculous, counterproductive and taking a moral high-ground from back of the monitor.
I am not advocating that you can do bad things, pay for them and then take pride in them. I can bet savior truly regrets all he did there is no way of telling one or the other way, however, his current actions do not contradict it.
People posting like savior singlehandedly lead to the death of pro BW. Do people think bw would have continue 10 more years of it wasn't from this scandal? Get into the real world guys.
I maintain my position that he shat upon the fans, the game, the spirit of competition, and the eSports scene with his actions. The blood of eSports is on his hands.
Some bloodstains will never wash off no matter how hard you scrub.
This is not some sort of Asian morality issue, any figure disgraced from professional sports for match-fixing, especially a famous past champion will often end up in jail or live in anonymity on purpose, no matter which culture you are familiar with. Savior was lucky that he was considered as a minor and only got banned from the game professionally, but if he was older when the match-fixing scandal was committed he would most likely be jailed for a short time, just like what happened to a few Korean players in their football league that had a similar scandal a while ago.
Would you let a past match-fixing retired footballer coach your football youths? The guy has to have some nerve to not at least go away quieting and do something else with his life. Instead he chose to making a living from the sport he personally disgraced. Hell it was a even bigger deal because he was a fan favorite and a popular champion as well, and it put a question mark on the legitimacy of every loss he made, especially those while playing in the team league. Savior can play BW all he wants in private, but for him to making a living from it again? The irony.
How was/is Savior as a person? Havn't seen anything about his personality except for the scandal and he seems to get more than just hate from that. Feel bad for the guy even though for what he did can't be forgiven, atleast in the BW scene.
I don't know. I still hope that somehow the one-who-shall-not-be-named can be forgotten.
Of course his life should not be destroyed, others did much worse crimes and deserve another chance, too. But please not in Starcraft. It's too painful, I think.
On March 30 2012 22:58 wangstra wrote: Personally I don't see the connection between a match fixing scandal and deterring new comers from enjoying the game. I'm not particularly into sports but I've never reacted negatively to a scandal in any game feeling that the game had lost its enjoyment or legitimacy because of the actions of a few and especially such a long time after the incident. A lot of people make this claim, it very well might be true (which I'm okay with) but no one has ever demonstrated or proved such a causality.
More importantly to me though, I partially went through this thread and I stopped, I couldn't take it. This community makes me ill sometimes. I've seen less polarization over much more serious incidents and forgiveness and acceptance over much more life altering situations.
There is seemingly a refusal to see the humanity in this one person (savior) and an enjoyment in demonizing him. No matter how often you do that, he doesn't become a non-human, no less a microcosm of the human experience. Anyway this isn't necessarily unique to SC. I see this lack of compassion constantly.
Yes he did a terrible thing. As far as I understand our species, there will always be someone on whose shoulder's that burden will fall on, there will always be someone who will push or cross the line. We should learn from it, accept it as part of what it means to be a person, have some compassion in that respect and move on. Wrong doing doesn't emanate from a single locus, its a product of our collective consciousness.
I imagine some will see the above as an apology for what Savior did. Well it isn't. Others will understand it as an appeal to learn so we aren't doomed to repeat this.
BW is/was popular in Korea because of the young faces and the honest passion/enthusiasm from commentators/fans/players.
When the matchfixing scandal occured it was a slap in the face to what the entire industry stood for, and to what the entire fanbase admired in players and the scene.
With that being said, due to the natural way of development of games, Brood War will not live on forever as a professional sport (unless something crazy happens) nor would it have if sAviOr never existed. Brood War is more threatened by it's natural successor that being, Starcraft 2 and in the end, e-Sports will move on... Sure, none of us Brood War fans want to see Brood War die and we'll do everything in our power to keep it a live, however, be it 2 years, be it 10 years, professional Brood War will come to an end, but it won't be due to sAviOr, it'll be due to the natural succession in e-Sports. And, when the new generation of gamers blossom, the scandals and scars created by sAviOr, while they will be heard, they will fall on deaf ears because no one cares about events when they were not around to see them. This much is pretty well fact, shown throughout history (Some things taking more generations to recover from than others).
I'd say this is demonstrably false since WC3 (nor any other game coming out inf 10 years or so) managed to replace replace BW.
Eywa is right. Warcraft 3 didn't replace BW because W3 is a horribly boring game to watch. It's very unbalanced, very repetitive, and quite annoying on many aspects.
We are in an economic crisis in case you guys didn't notice and South Korea is suffering as much as any other place. I am in a business dependent on sponsors and I can tell you that they are the first thing that go away when a company is struggling. Nobody needs eSports, it's really a luxury. And there is a ton of money needed to support those leagues and teams.
On top of that, BW is 13 years old. That's sad to say but BW is not chess, it is a game that has had an incredible success for a while, managed to grow as a sport, but won't last forever. Yes it is very good, yes, it is very well designed, but that's the rule with video game, they are dependent on technologies that evolve very quickly. The audience has fallen with the regularity of a swiss clock for years. Just look at Proleague finals statistics.
Nobody cares about Savior. Seriously. Sponsors decide where they invest their money depending of how fashionable an activity is, how much exposure they will get etc... I don't even think Shinhan bank managers who decided they would stop sponsoring PL even know who Savior is. They probably don't give a flying fuck. BW being replaced by other game has much deeper reasons, and if anything it is a bloody mirale the scene has lasted that long.
BW has never been huge. It's a very very very small and fragile niche, it has always been. The fact that it has had a moment of glory doesn't change that fact.
Now if Savior wants to make a few bucks by teaching what he can do the best, good for him. I think he is an idiot to have demolished his career and reputation and as much as I am very uninterested by the person, I still love the great player he has been.
Uhh dude, South Korea is NOT suffering at the moment. Sure, the situation in US and some European countries is bad, but a lot of the world has gone completely past the recession. Like S-Korea has 3,7% unemployment as of 2010. Koreans in general are living a good life, one of the most affordable developed countries and reasonable earnings. Ans so there is a lot of money to be made in E-Sports, the problem is just the massive boom in LoL overwhelming everything else, no? BTW where are the statistics of PL viewers, id be really interestesd in that.
Every country in the world has suffered the financial crisis. SOuth Korea recovers quickly and has done better than most other country, but there have suffered a lot like everybody else. Maybe you noticed, BW started really struggling in 2009.
"Growth moderated to about 4-5% annually between 2003 and 2007. With the global economic downturn in late 2008, South Korean GDP growth slowed to 0.2% in 2009."
MAYBE the slow down of the national and global economy in 2009 and the mechanical slow down of any kind of sponsorship for basically anything,, the fact that Starcraft 2 has come out, the legal battle between Kespa and Blizzard that made the future of all BW scene uncertain is a bit more of a factor than a "scandal" that interested a few thousand nerds about a couple of has been players losing on purpose for a pathetic sum of money.
While i don't totally disagree with you, i believe you are downplaying that incident quite a bit.
The then-current Bonjwa + a nontrivial amount of other A-teamers doing what they did impact the legitimacy of the scene a lot. Even more so if the amount of money is a "pathetic sum", seeing as their action clearly implied that even that pathetic sum wass more important than the their, or their teams' victory.
Of course it's not great, of course it made everybody sad.
Saying that they are responsible for the death of BW when it can be explained by very solid and absolutely logical and structural reasons is just silly. Blame the financial situation, the crisis, the conflict with Kespa, Starcraft 2, a game becoming very old and technologically outdated.
Don't you think it's logical a game starts to decline when young people don't really play it anymore, or at least less and less. Yeah, 2012 kids don't buy Brood War when they want a new video game. Maybe Starcraft 2. Anyway. Savior is reason n°53452664 why BW is struggling. He is as much responsible for the decline of BW as this front line soldier who fucked up something with a grenade or whatever is responsible for the defeat of Waterloo.
If you think Shinhan Bank takes decision about sponsoring with million dollars a cultural or sport industry based on the cheating of a couple of has been players, you are plainly wrong. That's not how it works.
Finally, Savior had been slumping hardcore for two or three years when the scandal was revealed. He was not even an important figure of the scene anymore except for regular "come back" where he would steal a game from a mediocre opponent and everybody would have an erection, before going into a losing streak again.
When ex-MBCgame employers directly say that MBC game closed down because of certain "dishonorable events" that were in jeopardy of tarnishing their reputation as long as they stayed in the BW scene, I would say, yeah, it was pretty significant. That is how it works in Korea.
LOL me and my friends at PlayXP and DCG (pretending to be his fans) got his bank account number from him. We're all gonna send him 18 won ($0.018 USD) from each of us. Shit's gonna be hillarious. From the gist of the message note from him, he's real desperate for money to buy his luxury products. I wonder whether he sold his Frostmourne yet...
On March 30 2012 22:02 HeaDStrong wrote: The thing is while a lot of people are still bitter and angry at him (and rightfully so), his streaming and coaching only helps the scene. He brings more viewers and players to the scene and there is nothing wrong about that. And I highly doubt he is going to teach his students how to convincingly lose games so his presence is not poisonous.
You're joking aren't you? Viewership has dropped for quite some times, and you expect someone like Savior who drops players out of the scene to bring players back in, as well as viewership?
Wth. Anyone who can still inspire people to play and keep people interested is an asset. He destroyed part of the scene, yes but let's judge actions shall we.
Imagine if a serial killer saved a person's life. Would you go HOW DARE HE!
He might be getting some money out of it but let's face it, the consensus says it's dirt cheap.
On March 30 2012 22:02 HeaDStrong wrote: The thing is while a lot of people are still bitter and angry at him (and rightfully so), his streaming and coaching only helps the scene. He brings more viewers and players to the scene and there is nothing wrong about that. And I highly doubt he is going to teach his students how to convincingly lose games so his presence is not poisonous.
You're joking aren't you? Viewership has dropped for quite some times, and you expect someone like Savior who drops players out of the scene to bring players back in, as well as viewership?
Wth. Anyone who can still inspire people to play and keep people interested is an asset. He destroyed part of the scene, yes but let's judge actions shall we.
Imagine if a serial killer saved a person's life. Would you go HOW DARE HE!
He might be getting some money out of it but let's face it, the consensus says it's dirt cheap.
I wouldn't feel safe if a serial killer saved my life...
On March 31 2012 02:59 JiPrime wrote: LOL me and my friends at PlayXP and DCG (pretending to be his fans) got his bank account number from him. We're all gonna send him 18 won ($0.018 USD) from each of us. Shit's gonna be hillarious. From the gist of the message note from him, he's real desperate for money to buy his luxury products. I wonder whether he sold his Frostmourne yet...
What is the luxury products you speak of? ^^
Also someone posted the idea of getting lessons from him streamed, and just calling him a traitor for the hour or until he cut you off. lol
On March 30 2012 22:02 HeaDStrong wrote: The thing is while a lot of people are still bitter and angry at him (and rightfully so), his streaming and coaching only helps the scene. He brings more viewers and players to the scene and there is nothing wrong about that. And I highly doubt he is going to teach his students how to convincingly lose games so his presence is not poisonous.
You're joking aren't you? Viewership has dropped for quite some times, and you expect someone like Savior who drops players out of the scene to bring players back in, as well as viewership?
Wth. Anyone who can still inspire people to play and keep people interested is an asset. He destroyed part of the scene, yes but let's judge actions shall we.
Imagine if a serial killer saved a person's life. Would you go HOW DARE HE!
He might be getting some money out of it but let's face it, the consensus says it's dirt cheap.
I wouldn't feel safe if a serial killer saved my life...
You need to watch more Dexter, man.
To be fair, I can't see what the big deal is. He's been banned from pro-gaming and he's not doing that or breaking any laws, so let him live his life in peace. Loads of whining around these forums for nothing.
On March 31 2012 02:59 JiPrime wrote: LOL me and my friends at PlayXP and DCG (pretending to be his fans) got his bank account number from him. We're all gonna send him 18 won ($0.018 USD) from each of us. Shit's gonna be hillarious. From the gist of the message note from him, he's real desperate for money to buy his luxury products. I wonder whether he sold his Frostmourne yet...
What is the luxury products you speak of? ^^
Also someone posted the idea of getting lessons from him streamed, and just calling him a traitor for the hour or until he cut you off. lol
So many people on this thread pretend to be perfect by pointing out that he should be damned forever. Sounds much like religions to me but that's another topic..
He messed up big time and is banned from pro gaming and now he still wishes to play and coach. That shows that his punishment is fitting to the crime since he can no longer compete in something he is clearly passionate about. Regardless of his actions, e-sports in general is starting to grow globally at this time.
You never have to forgive him but he shouldn't be sitting here crucified years later because he made such a horrible mistake. He can't correct it or be apart of what he hurt. I might even say he nearly helped BW as much as he hurt it with his era of dominance and changing the metagame into what is considered a post-savior era.
On March 31 2012 02:59 JiPrime wrote: LOL me and my friends at PlayXP and DCG (pretending to be his fans) got his bank account number from him. We're all gonna send him 18 won ($0.018 USD) from each of us. Shit's gonna be hillarious. From the gist of the message note from him, he's real desperate for money to buy his luxury products. I wonder whether he sold his Frostmourne yet...
What is the luxury products you speak of? ^^
Also someone posted the idea of getting lessons from him streamed, and just calling him a traitor for the hour or until he cut you off. lol
On March 31 2012 02:59 JiPrime wrote: LOL me and my friends at PlayXP and DCG (pretending to be his fans) got his bank account number from him. We're all gonna send him 18 won ($0.018 USD) from each of us. Shit's gonna be hillarious. From the gist of the message note from him, he's real desperate for money to buy his luxury products. I wonder whether he sold his Frostmourne yet...
that's borderline harassment. and no it's not going to be hilarious. it's low.
the guy stood in front of a court. he got his punishment. he is clean he can do what he want and he can make money any legal way he wants. and yes like it or not he obviously still has fans that watch his stream.
You don't need to like him but don't mess with a person for no reason apart from you not liking him.
On March 31 2012 03:50 Glockateer wrote: So many people on this thread pretend to be perfect by pointing out that he should be damned forever. Sounds much like religions to me but that's another topic..
He messed up big time and is banned from pro gaming and now he still wishes to play and coach. That shows that his punishment is fitting to the crime since he can no longer compete in something he is clearly passionate about. Regardless of his actions, e-sports in general is starting to grow globally at this time.
You never have to forgive him but he shouldn't be sitting here crucified years later because he made such a horrible mistake. He can't correct it or be apart of what he hurt. I might even say he nearly helped BW as much as he hurt it with his era of dominance and changing the metagame into what is considered a post-savior era.
Tbh, I wouldn't be this mad if he started doing this AFTER his probation is finished. He's still on 2 year probation for his crimes and he pulls this bullshit? Unacceptable. Absolutely unacceptable.
On March 31 2012 03:50 Glockateer wrote: So many people on this thread pretend to be perfect by pointing out that he should be damned forever. Sounds much like religions to me but that's another topic..
He messed up big time and is banned from pro gaming and now he still wishes to play and coach. That shows that his punishment is fitting to the crime since he can no longer compete in something he is clearly passionate about. Regardless of his actions, e-sports in general is starting to grow globally at this time.
You never have to forgive him but he shouldn't be sitting here crucified years later because he made such a horrible mistake. He can't correct it or be apart of what he hurt. I might even say he nearly helped BW as much as he hurt it with his era of dominance and changing the metagame into what is considered a post-savior era.
Tbh, I wouldn't be this mad if he started doing this AFTER his probation is finished. He's still on 2 year probation for his crimes and he pulls this bullshit? Unacceptable. Absolutely unacceptable.
Sorry, but do you know what probation means? It means he can not commit crimes in that time. It's not an exile or banishment. He is not pulling bullshit, just doing everyone a huge favor. Yeah someone might not like it- guess what dont watch his stream don't but his lessons and walk along. You are not a judge and are waaaaaaay out of line here.
No one with a sane mind can argue that what he is doing now somehow hurts the bw scene. If anything it only helps it.
On March 31 2012 03:50 Glockateer wrote: So many people on this thread pretend to be perfect by pointing out that he should be damned forever. Sounds much like religions to me but that's another topic..
He messed up big time and is banned from pro gaming and now he still wishes to play and coach. That shows that his punishment is fitting to the crime since he can no longer compete in something he is clearly passionate about. Regardless of his actions, e-sports in general is starting to grow globally at this time.
You never have to forgive him but he shouldn't be sitting here crucified years later because he made such a horrible mistake. He can't correct it or be apart of what he hurt. I might even say he nearly helped BW as much as he hurt it with his era of dominance and changing the metagame into what is considered a post-savior era.
Tbh, I wouldn't be this mad if he started doing this AFTER his probation is finished. He's still on 2 year probation for his crimes and he pulls this bullshit? Unacceptable. Absolutely unacceptable.
No one with a sane mind can argue that what he is doing now somehow hurts the bw scene. If anything it only helps it.
Yo, mind if I quote your post and and re-post in Korean sites? Let's see what the koreans say about your statement.
With that being said, due to the natural way of development of games, Brood War will not live on forever as a professional sport (unless something crazy happens) nor would it have if sAviOr never existed. Brood War is more threatened by it's natural successor that being, Starcraft 2 and in the end, e-Sports will move on... Sure, none of us Brood War fans want to see Brood War die and we'll do everything in our power to keep it a live, however, be it 2 years, be it 10 years, professional Brood War will come to an end, but it won't be due to sAviOr, it'll be due to the natural succession in e-Sports. And, when the new generation of gamers blossom, the scandals and scars created by sAviOr, while they will be heard, they will fall on deaf ears because no one cares about events when they were not around to see them. This much is pretty well fact, shown throughout history (Some things taking more generations to recover from than others).
I'd say this is demonstrably false since WC3 (nor any other game coming out inf 10 years or so) managed to replace replace BW.
On March 30 2012 17:54 supernovamaniac wrote: Should I take this seriously? Because with what happened during streaming, I can't honestly tell if you're just trying to make yourself sound smart or trying to make a valid argument.
Yes. TL is a very serious place and you should always take everyone seriously
On March 31 2012 03:50 Glockateer wrote: So many people on this thread pretend to be perfect by pointing out that he should be damned forever. Sounds much like religions to me but that's another topic..
He messed up big time and is banned from pro gaming and now he still wishes to play and coach. That shows that his punishment is fitting to the crime since he can no longer compete in something he is clearly passionate about. Regardless of his actions, e-sports in general is starting to grow globally at this time.
You never have to forgive him but he shouldn't be sitting here crucified years later because he made such a horrible mistake. He can't correct it or be apart of what he hurt. I might even say he nearly helped BW as much as he hurt it with his era of dominance and changing the metagame into what is considered a post-savior era.
Tbh, I wouldn't be this mad if he started doing this AFTER his probation is finished. He's still on 2 year probation for his crimes and he pulls this bullshit? Unacceptable. Absolutely unacceptable.
No one with a sane mind can argue that what he is doing now somehow hurts the bw scene. If anything it only helps it.
Yo, mind if I quote your post and and re-post in Korean sites? Let's see what the koreans say about your statement.
Just because x group of people gets angry about something does not make their opinion more valid than y group of people.
Are you implying the korean audience, which pretty much makes the most of the BW scene, don't matter?
On March 31 2012 03:50 Glockateer wrote: So many people on this thread pretend to be perfect by pointing out that he should be damned forever. Sounds much like religions to me but that's another topic..
He messed up big time and is banned from pro gaming and now he still wishes to play and coach. That shows that his punishment is fitting to the crime since he can no longer compete in something he is clearly passionate about. Regardless of his actions, e-sports in general is starting to grow globally at this time.
You never have to forgive him but he shouldn't be sitting here crucified years later because he made such a horrible mistake. He can't correct it or be apart of what he hurt. I might even say he nearly helped BW as much as he hurt it with his era of dominance and changing the metagame into what is considered a post-savior era.
Tbh, I wouldn't be this mad if he started doing this AFTER his probation is finished. He's still on 2 year probation for his crimes and he pulls this bullshit? Unacceptable. Absolutely unacceptable.
No one with a sane mind can argue that what he is doing now somehow hurts the bw scene. If anything it only helps it.
Yo, mind if I quote your post and and re-post in Korean sites? Let's see what the koreans say about your statement.
Yo, mind if you actually bring something to worthwhile to the table.
Yes he has damaged the scene beyond no repair. But you tell me how him streaming and coaching a game that is falling out of popularity and in desperate need of more viewership is a bad thing now? If people are unable to forgive him they can mind their own business and move on.
But really YOU tell me how is he doing something bad now? What is he taking away from anyone now? What kind of bullshit is he pulling?
On March 31 2012 03:50 Glockateer wrote: So many people on this thread pretend to be perfect by pointing out that he should be damned forever. Sounds much like religions to me but that's another topic..
He messed up big time and is banned from pro gaming and now he still wishes to play and coach. That shows that his punishment is fitting to the crime since he can no longer compete in something he is clearly passionate about. Regardless of his actions, e-sports in general is starting to grow globally at this time.
You never have to forgive him but he shouldn't be sitting here crucified years later because he made such a horrible mistake. He can't correct it or be apart of what he hurt. I might even say he nearly helped BW as much as he hurt it with his era of dominance and changing the metagame into what is considered a post-savior era.
Tbh, I wouldn't be this mad if he started doing this AFTER his probation is finished. He's still on 2 year probation for his crimes and he pulls this bullshit? Unacceptable. Absolutely unacceptable.
No one with a sane mind can argue that what he is doing now somehow hurts the bw scene. If anything it only helps it.
Yo, mind if I quote your post and and re-post in Korean sites? Let's see what the koreans say about your statement.
Just because x group of people gets angry about something does not make their opinion more valid than y group of people.
One thing is pissing off some people. All it does it get's hate projected on savior, but that is not even my point. if you disregard his past- he is doing a good thing now.
On March 31 2012 03:50 Glockateer wrote: So many people on this thread pretend to be perfect by pointing out that he should be damned forever. Sounds much like religions to me but that's another topic..
He messed up big time and is banned from pro gaming and now he still wishes to play and coach. That shows that his punishment is fitting to the crime since he can no longer compete in something he is clearly passionate about. Regardless of his actions, e-sports in general is starting to grow globally at this time.
You never have to forgive him but he shouldn't be sitting here crucified years later because he made such a horrible mistake. He can't correct it or be apart of what he hurt. I might even say he nearly helped BW as much as he hurt it with his era of dominance and changing the metagame into what is considered a post-savior era.
Tbh, I wouldn't be this mad if he started doing this AFTER his probation is finished. He's still on 2 year probation for his crimes and he pulls this bullshit? Unacceptable. Absolutely unacceptable.
No one with a sane mind can argue that what he is doing now somehow hurts the bw scene. If anything it only helps it.
Yo, mind if I quote your post and and re-post in Korean sites? Let's see what the koreans say about your statement.
One of the reasons matchfixing was so scandalous to BW to begin with is the very fact that public opinion very quickly became a mob. Your appeal to the authority of the many is not relevant to whatever point you were trying to make originally (as posted above, probation doesn't mean "can't touch BW for 2 years or else will be lynched by people who hold grudges rather than just ignoring what they don't like," it means "don't commit crimes for this period of time instead of serving it in jail"). I don't think more people streaming BW can be worse for the game than fewer people streaming BW. The presence of each streamer's unique content helps keeps people watching/playing, if only in a vague and aggregate way.
On March 31 2012 03:50 Glockateer wrote: So many people on this thread pretend to be perfect by pointing out that he should be damned forever. Sounds much like religions to me but that's another topic..
He messed up big time and is banned from pro gaming and now he still wishes to play and coach. That shows that his punishment is fitting to the crime since he can no longer compete in something he is clearly passionate about. Regardless of his actions, e-sports in general is starting to grow globally at this time.
You never have to forgive him but he shouldn't be sitting here crucified years later because he made such a horrible mistake. He can't correct it or be apart of what he hurt. I might even say he nearly helped BW as much as he hurt it with his era of dominance and changing the metagame into what is considered a post-savior era.
Tbh, I wouldn't be this mad if he started doing this AFTER his probation is finished. He's still on 2 year probation for his crimes and he pulls this bullshit? Unacceptable. Absolutely unacceptable.
No one with a sane mind can argue that what he is doing now somehow hurts the bw scene. If anything it only helps it.
Yo, mind if I quote your post and and re-post in Korean sites? Let's see what the koreans say about your statement.
Yo, mind if you actually bring something to worthwhile to the table.
Yes he has damaged the scene beyond no repair. But you tell me how him streaming and coaching a game that is falling out of popularity and in desperate need of more viewership is a bad thing now? If people are unable to forgive him they can mind their own business and move on.
But really YOU tell me how is he doing something bad now? What is he taking away from anyone now? What kind of bullshit is he pulling?
His wrongdoing is being reported by the mainstream media and outsiders are astonished and disgusted that we are letting him get away with this.
You don't see disgraced players from other sports doing something of this sort, and get away with it.
Why should BW be exception?
Someone has to do something about it, and if others won't do it, me and my pals will do it, because it's the right thing to do.
On March 31 2012 04:22 HeaDStrong wrote: One thing is pissing off some people. All it does it get's hate projected on savior, but that is not even my point. if you disregard his past- he is doing a good thing now.
There's a clear distinction about doing something for the industry and doing something for yourself. In this case, Ma Jae Yoon is doing this for himself and only himself. If it helps the industry, its just a bonus.
Edit: I would just like to make his intentions clear.
On March 31 2012 03:50 Glockateer wrote: So many people on this thread pretend to be perfect by pointing out that he should be damned forever. Sounds much like religions to me but that's another topic..
He messed up big time and is banned from pro gaming and now he still wishes to play and coach. That shows that his punishment is fitting to the crime since he can no longer compete in something he is clearly passionate about. Regardless of his actions, e-sports in general is starting to grow globally at this time.
You never have to forgive him but he shouldn't be sitting here crucified years later because he made such a horrible mistake. He can't correct it or be apart of what he hurt. I might even say he nearly helped BW as much as he hurt it with his era of dominance and changing the metagame into what is considered a post-savior era.
Tbh, I wouldn't be this mad if he started doing this AFTER his probation is finished. He's still on 2 year probation for his crimes and he pulls this bullshit? Unacceptable. Absolutely unacceptable.
No one with a sane mind can argue that what he is doing now somehow hurts the bw scene. If anything it only helps it.
Yo, mind if I quote your post and and re-post in Korean sites? Let's see what the koreans say about your statement.
Yo, mind if you actually bring something to worthwhile to the table.
Yes he has damaged the scene beyond no repair. But you tell me how him streaming and coaching a game that is falling out of popularity and in desperate need of more viewership is a bad thing now? If people are unable to forgive him they can mind their own business and move on.
But really YOU tell me how is he doing something bad now? What is he taking away from anyone now? What kind of bullshit is he pulling?
His wrongdoing is being reported by the mainstream media and outsiders are astonished and disgusted that we are letting him get away with this.
You don't see disgraced players from other sports doing something of this sort, and get away with it.
Why should BW be exception?
Someone has to do something about it, and if others won't do it, me and my pals will do it, because it's the right thing to do.
Get away? He fucking got banned from progaming and got 1 year of jail time with this conditional probation. How can you say he got away from it? He got his punishment and now he is a law abiding citizen.
Your mob mentality and self-righteousness is a disgrace to human kind.
On March 31 2012 04:22 HeaDStrong wrote: One thing is pissing off some people. All it does it get's hate projected on savior, but that is not even my point. if you disregard his past- he is doing a good thing now.
There's a clear distinction about doing something for the industry and doing something for yourself. In this case, Ma Jae Yoon is doing this for himself and only himself. If it helps the industry, its just a bonus.
Edit: I would just like to make his intentions clear.
and you know his intentions how? and why is he not allowed to do something for himself and with a slight probability help the industry? In my book it's a win-win situation.
On March 31 2012 03:50 Glockateer wrote: So many people on this thread pretend to be perfect by pointing out that he should be damned forever. Sounds much like religions to me but that's another topic..
He messed up big time and is banned from pro gaming and now he still wishes to play and coach. That shows that his punishment is fitting to the crime since he can no longer compete in something he is clearly passionate about. Regardless of his actions, e-sports in general is starting to grow globally at this time.
You never have to forgive him but he shouldn't be sitting here crucified years later because he made such a horrible mistake. He can't correct it or be apart of what he hurt. I might even say he nearly helped BW as much as he hurt it with his era of dominance and changing the metagame into what is considered a post-savior era.
Tbh, I wouldn't be this mad if he started doing this AFTER his probation is finished. He's still on 2 year probation for his crimes and he pulls this bullshit? Unacceptable. Absolutely unacceptable.
No one with a sane mind can argue that what he is doing now somehow hurts the bw scene. If anything it only helps it.
Yo, mind if I quote your post and and re-post in Korean sites? Let's see what the koreans say about your statement.
Yo, mind if you actually bring something to worthwhile to the table.
Yes he has damaged the scene beyond no repair. But you tell me how him streaming and coaching a game that is falling out of popularity and in desperate need of more viewership is a bad thing now? If people are unable to forgive him they can mind their own business and move on.
But really YOU tell me how is he doing something bad now? What is he taking away from anyone now? What kind of bullshit is he pulling?
His wrongdoing is being reported by the mainstream media and outsiders are astonished and disgusted that we are letting him get away with this.
You don't see disgraced players from other sports doing something of this sort, and get away with it.
Why should BW be exception?
Someone has to do something about it, and if others won't do it, me and my pals will do it, because it's the right thing to do.
Get away? He fucking got banned from progaming and got 1 year of jail time with this conditional probation. How can you say he got away from it? He got his punishment and now he is a law abiding citizen.
Your mob mentality and self-righteousness is a disgrace to human kind.
He didn't get the jail time. He bailed out with his dosh.
I wouldn't mind if some of the other gamers who were banned, like hwasin or luxury, who albeit playing a very minor role in the whole scandal immediately owned up to their crimes, posted an apology and accepted their forced-retirement with grace, started offering bw lessons. Owning up to their mistakes usually causes a response along the lines of 'You fucked up, but it's okay, you payed the price and it seems you learned your lesson. Don't fuck up again.'
savior, who arguably orchestrated the whole incident by brokering other deals and persuading other players to join in on the movement (and even ripped off the players whose deals he was brokering LOL) didnt own up to shit and went into hiding; he only wrote a (half-ass) apology when it was pretty much set in stone that he would be fucked in court, and then went on to prove that he didnt mean anything he wrote in his apology by streaming BW and collecting money from his fans a few months after. That says a lot about savior's character.
On March 31 2012 03:50 Glockateer wrote: So many people on this thread pretend to be perfect by pointing out that he should be damned forever. Sounds much like religions to me but that's another topic..
He messed up big time and is banned from pro gaming and now he still wishes to play and coach. That shows that his punishment is fitting to the crime since he can no longer compete in something he is clearly passionate about. Regardless of his actions, e-sports in general is starting to grow globally at this time.
You never have to forgive him but he shouldn't be sitting here crucified years later because he made such a horrible mistake. He can't correct it or be apart of what he hurt. I might even say he nearly helped BW as much as he hurt it with his era of dominance and changing the metagame into what is considered a post-savior era.
Tbh, I wouldn't be this mad if he started doing this AFTER his probation is finished. He's still on 2 year probation for his crimes and he pulls this bullshit? Unacceptable. Absolutely unacceptable.
No one with a sane mind can argue that what he is doing now somehow hurts the bw scene. If anything it only helps it.
Yo, mind if I quote your post and and re-post in Korean sites? Let's see what the koreans say about your statement.
Yo, mind if you actually bring something to worthwhile to the table.
Yes he has damaged the scene beyond no repair. But you tell me how him streaming and coaching a game that is falling out of popularity and in desperate need of more viewership is a bad thing now? If people are unable to forgive him they can mind their own business and move on.
But really YOU tell me how is he doing something bad now? What is he taking away from anyone now? What kind of bullshit is he pulling?
His wrongdoing is being reported by the mainstream media and outsiders are astonished and disgusted that we are letting him get away with this.
You don't see disgraced players from other sports doing something of this sort, and get away with it.
Why should BW be exception?
Someone has to do something about it, and if others won't do it, me and my pals will do it, because it's the right thing to do.
Get away? He fucking got banned from progaming and got 1 year of jail time with this conditional probation. How can you say he got away from it? He got his punishment and now he is a law abiding citizen.
Your mob mentality and self-righteousness is a disgrace to human kind.
He didn't get the jail time. He bailed out with his dosh.
He did get the jail time, but with a conditional probation of 2 years- any minor offence during those two years- he's behind bars for a year. And as mentioned before having something like that on your record is completely devastating for any career you would hope to partake. So no- he did not get away with it and no- you and your palls are just way out of line with your getting him, because no one else would stand up for what is right....
On March 31 2012 04:22 HeaDStrong wrote: One thing is pissing off some people. All it does it get's hate projected on savior, but that is not even my point. if you disregard his past- he is doing a good thing now.
There's a clear distinction about doing something for the industry and doing something for yourself. In this case, Ma Jae Yoon is doing this for himself and only himself. If it helps the industry, its just a bonus.
Edit: I would just like to make his intentions clear.
and you know his intentions how? and why is he not allowed to do something for himself and with a slight probability help the industry? In my book it's a win-win situation.
The fact that he charged money for streaming and charging money for lessons makes it pretty obvious that he's doing this for the money. He's allowed to, of course. But don't downplay his mistakes or his selfishness.
On March 31 2012 04:22 HeaDStrong wrote: One thing is pissing off some people. All it does it get's hate projected on savior, but that is not even my point. if you disregard his past- he is doing a good thing now.
There's a clear distinction about doing something for the industry and doing something for yourself. In this case, Ma Jae Yoon is doing this for himself and only himself. If it helps the industry, its just a bonus.
Edit: I would just like to make his intentions clear.
and you know his intentions how? and why is he not allowed to do something for himself and with a slight probability help the industry? In my book it's a win-win situation.
The fact that he charged money for streaming and charging money for lessons makes it pretty obvious that he's doing this for the money. He's allowed to, of course. But don't downplay his mistakes or his selfishness.
Not to mention he's pretty much damaging other legit progamers' chance to make some extra income with BW tutoring by setting the price way too cheap.
In retrospect what he's doing probably only benefits himself and hurts/benefits no one else. BW is on the decline, with not much hopes of moving the other way. People who see his stream is paying him money to see it, so I doubt its going to bring in new blood, he's "restricting" streaming of his coaching as well. if you didn't know about the scandal, well you probably aren't interested in bw anyways and savior coaching isn't going to change that.
Of course its hard to argue that this coaching gig of his is a dead end road and its in the best interest of him to just pursue something else.
On March 31 2012 03:50 Glockateer wrote: So many people on this thread pretend to be perfect by pointing out that he should be damned forever. Sounds much like religions to me but that's another topic..
He messed up big time and is banned from pro gaming and now he still wishes to play and coach. That shows that his punishment is fitting to the crime since he can no longer compete in something he is clearly passionate about. Regardless of his actions, e-sports in general is starting to grow globally at this time.
You never have to forgive him but he shouldn't be sitting here crucified years later because he made such a horrible mistake. He can't correct it or be apart of what he hurt. I might even say he nearly helped BW as much as he hurt it with his era of dominance and changing the metagame into what is considered a post-savior era.
Tbh, I wouldn't be this mad if he started doing this AFTER his probation is finished. He's still on 2 year probation for his crimes and he pulls this bullshit? Unacceptable. Absolutely unacceptable.
No one with a sane mind can argue that what he is doing now somehow hurts the bw scene. If anything it only helps it.
Yo, mind if I quote your post and and re-post in Korean sites? Let's see what the koreans say about your statement.
Why are you still allowed to post here?
Is it like imperative that you troll every BW thread?
Anyway, I'm actually kind of happy Savior didn't just fade into obscurity like virtually all other progamer match fixers who were legitimately good at the game. This is perfectly legal and I don't see how people who want him to "go straight" have any problem with this just because it doesn't fit their own normative view of criminals not being allowed to use their skills.
On March 31 2012 04:22 HeaDStrong wrote: One thing is pissing off some people. All it does it get's hate projected on savior, but that is not even my point. if you disregard his past- he is doing a good thing now.
There's a clear distinction about doing something for the industry and doing something for yourself. In this case, Ma Jae Yoon is doing this for himself and only himself. If it helps the industry, its just a bonus.
Edit: I would just like to make his intentions clear.
and you know his intentions how? and why is he not allowed to do something for himself and with a slight probability help the industry? In my book it's a win-win situation.
The fact that he charged money for streaming and charging money for lessons makes it pretty obvious that he's doing this for the money. He's allowed to, of course. But don't downplay his mistakes or his selfishness.
He made mistakes (if you can call his actions like that) and he damaged the scene maybe beyond repair. but I dont like to judge people, I don't know their intentions or circumstances. All I can do is judge their actions, I guess this context makes sense for me to take a utilitarian standpoint. What he did with match fixing- bad. What he is doing now-good. He payed his debt for his crimes already so no need to mix the two up.
On March 31 2012 04:22 HeaDStrong wrote: One thing is pissing off some people. All it does it get's hate projected on savior, but that is not even my point. if you disregard his past- he is doing a good thing now.
There's a clear distinction about doing something for the industry and doing something for yourself. In this case, Ma Jae Yoon is doing this for himself and only himself. If it helps the industry, its just a bonus.
Edit: I would just like to make his intentions clear.
and you know his intentions how? and why is he not allowed to do something for himself and with a slight probability help the industry? In my book it's a win-win situation.
The fact that he charged money for streaming and charging money for lessons makes it pretty obvious that he's doing this for the money. He's allowed to, of course. But don't downplay his mistakes or his selfishness.
Not to mention he's pretty much damaging other legit progamers' chance to make some extra income with BW tutoring by setting the price way too cheap.
lol. As of my knowledge no progamers currently part of a team are actually doing any coaching and the few ex-pros that were mentioned in this thread- charged less than him. And no way one person could take away the labor of all the pros to damage the scene.
And also so much inconsistency in his critics- he should not charge for it, he shouldn't charge so little. And hell whatever happened to free market? No, sir, your point is invalid.
You don't see disgraced players from other sports doing something of this sort, and get away with it.
Guess you never heard of Ben Johnson, Who was banned after winning gold medal. Not only did he make a come back in running, but he trained and coached many others. Ryan Leaf, shamed out of the league in NFL was a QB coach till getting arrested again. Pete Rose never has been completely away from baseball. This is just off the top of my head I'm sure I could come up with 50-100 more. This is not unheard of, if anything it's completly common.
We're on TL man, real sports are something we only refer to, not something we actually know about!
On March 31 2012 04:22 HeaDStrong wrote: One thing is pissing off some people. All it does it get's hate projected on savior, but that is not even my point. if you disregard his past- he is doing a good thing now.
There's a clear distinction about doing something for the industry and doing something for yourself. In this case, Ma Jae Yoon is doing this for himself and only himself. If it helps the industry, its just a bonus.
Edit: I would just like to make his intentions clear.
and you know his intentions how? and why is he not allowed to do something for himself and with a slight probability help the industry? In my book it's a win-win situation.
The fact that he charged money for streaming and charging money for lessons makes it pretty obvious that he's doing this for the money. He's allowed to, of course. But don't downplay his mistakes or his selfishness.
He made mistakes (if you can call his actions like that) and he damaged the scene maybe beyond repair. but I dont like to judge people, I don't know their intentions or circumstances. All I can do is judge their actions, I guess this context makes sense for me to take a utilitarian standpoint. What he did with match fixing- bad. What he is doing now-good. He payed his debt for his crimes already so no need to mix the two up.
On March 31 2012 04:22 HeaDStrong wrote: One thing is pissing off some people. All it does it get's hate projected on savior, but that is not even my point. if you disregard his past- he is doing a good thing now.
There's a clear distinction about doing something for the industry and doing something for yourself. In this case, Ma Jae Yoon is doing this for himself and only himself. If it helps the industry, its just a bonus.
Edit: I would just like to make his intentions clear.
and you know his intentions how? and why is he not allowed to do something for himself and with a slight probability help the industry? In my book it's a win-win situation.
The fact that he charged money for streaming and charging money for lessons makes it pretty obvious that he's doing this for the money. He's allowed to, of course. But don't downplay his mistakes or his selfishness.
Not to mention he's pretty much damaging other legit progamers' chance to make some extra income with BW tutoring by setting the price way too cheap.
lol. As of my knowledge no progamers currently part of a team are actually doing any coaching and the few ex-pros that were mentioned in this thread- charged less than him. And no way one person could take away the labor of all the pros to damage the scene.
And also so much inconsistency in his critics- he should not charge for it, he shouldn't charge so little. And hell whatever happened to free market? No, sir, your point is invalid.
Very sound reply. I agree with you fully dear Sir.
You don't see disgraced players from other sports doing something of this sort, and get away with it.
Guess you never heard of Ben Johnson, Who was banned after winning gold medal. Not only did he make a come back in running, but he trained and coached many others. Ryan Leaf, shamed out of the league in NFL was a QB coach till getting arrested again. Pete Rose never has been completely away from baseball. This is just off the top of my head I'm sure I could come up with 50-100 more. This is not unheard of, if anything it's completly common.
We're on TL man, real sports are something we only refer to, not something we actually know about!
On March 31 2012 04:22 HeaDStrong wrote: One thing is pissing off some people. All it does it get's hate projected on savior, but that is not even my point. if you disregard his past- he is doing a good thing now.
There's a clear distinction about doing something for the industry and doing something for yourself. In this case, Ma Jae Yoon is doing this for himself and only himself. If it helps the industry, its just a bonus.
Edit: I would just like to make his intentions clear.
and you know his intentions how? and why is he not allowed to do something for himself and with a slight probability help the industry? In my book it's a win-win situation.
The fact that he charged money for streaming and charging money for lessons makes it pretty obvious that he's doing this for the money. He's allowed to, of course. But don't downplay his mistakes or his selfishness.
Not to mention he's pretty much damaging other legit progamers' chance to make some extra income with BW tutoring by setting the price way too cheap.
Professional BW gamers make money by earning salaries, tournament prizes, and performance bonuses from winning games that they spend all their time practicing and preparing for. They don't waste time by giving lessons for skittles, and they aren't really allowed to anyway - doing things outside the team like streaming/coaching/replay doesn't help you win that next televised game, and it even hurts your chances if you gift wrap your preparation and show it to the opponent. This includes low level players who don't earn salaries, because they especially need to get their skills up if they want to get TV games.
I can't believe how vindictive and unforgiving this scene is. I think that he shouldn't "bow out" of the SC scene, he should do whatever he wants to do, and if people want to pay for him to coach them they should. I hope that people get over this and move on, not because it wasn't a big deal, but because it has been dealt with in a ridiculously harsh way. Let it go already.
On March 31 2012 05:30 pi_rate_pir_ate wrote: I can't believe how vindictive and unforgiving this scene is. I think that he shouldn't "bow out" of the SC scene, he should do whatever he wants to do, and if people want to pay for him to coach them they should. I hope that people get over this and move on, not because it wasn't a big deal, but because it has been dealt with in a ridiculously harsh way. Let it go already.
I stopped watching Broodwar for a year after the whole scandal, so despite the guy's skill, I could never pay him any money. It's quite sad what he's doing, but I guess you gotta do what you gotta do.
Meh. Most people who fucked up as royally as Savior did have the dignity to attempt their second chance at life in a different place. The BW scene isn't big enough and Savior is essentially attempting his rehabilitation at the scene of the crime.
Besides, it's already 2012, 4 years after the recession. Not every place got hit as hard as the US and EU was. And personally, living in the US, we've been in recovery mode for quite a while now. The economy in many places is not in the dumps anymore. Many Asian countries have recovered even faster. It's time people stop using the economy as an excuse for Savior not to learn a different skill and get a different job in a different industry.
On March 31 2012 05:30 pi_rate_pir_ate wrote: I can't believe how vindictive and unforgiving this scene is. I think that he shouldn't "bow out" of the SC scene, he should do whatever he wants to do, and if people want to pay for him to coach them they should. I hope that people get over this and move on, not because it wasn't a big deal, but because it has been dealt with in a ridiculously harsh way. Let it go already.
You should see how the Koreans react to him.
thousands boot up his stream and send him balloons
So long as he is not involved in any official matches I don't care for what he does. I do get emotional about the game but I don't see how that justifies me interfering with someone else's life.
I get the impression from the article that this isn't like a lot of the lessons which are now offered by SC2 pros. It sounds more like he's playing and commentating himself, and you're buying a video of it.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't imagine he'd only charge $25 for a real lesson that involves him actually talking about your play and helping you.
If he really is just selling commentary, I find that pretty distasteful given his history, and the fact the most players who already commentate their own games do it for free.
If this is real, interactive, quality teaching, then I'd say he's giving quite the deal and I think that's somewhat commendable..
On March 31 2012 05:30 pi_rate_pir_ate wrote: I can't believe how vindictive and unforgiving this scene is. I think that he shouldn't "bow out" of the SC scene, he should do whatever he wants to do, and if people want to pay for him to coach them they should. I hope that people get over this and move on, not because it wasn't a big deal, but because it has been dealt with in a ridiculously harsh way. Let it go already.
You should see how the Koreans react to him.
thousands boot up his stream and send him balloons
He certainly has a few followers that's for sure. I know I've tuned in a few times to see what all the fuss was about.
On March 31 2012 05:30 pi_rate_pir_ate wrote: I can't believe how vindictive and unforgiving this scene is. I think that he shouldn't "bow out" of the SC scene, he should do whatever he wants to do, and if people want to pay for him to coach them they should. I hope that people get over this and move on, not because it wasn't a big deal, but because it has been dealt with in a ridiculously harsh way. Let it go already.
You should see how the Koreans react to him.
thousands boot up his stream and send him balloons
He certainly has a few followers that's for sure. I know I've tuned in a few times to see what all the fuss was about.
lol it's funny cuz he thanks each person who sends him balloons
"Mr. StarStruck Sir, thank you very much for the XXXX Balloons."
Isn't that punishment enough? making your living off digital balloons, when a couple years back you were once the hottest thing in esports. it's sad really.
On March 31 2012 05:30 pi_rate_pir_ate wrote: I can't believe how vindictive and unforgiving this scene is. I think that he shouldn't "bow out" of the SC scene, he should do whatever he wants to do, and if people want to pay for him to coach them they should. I hope that people get over this and move on, not because it wasn't a big deal, but because it has been dealt with in a ridiculously harsh way. Let it go already.
You should see how the Koreans react to him.
thousands boot up his stream and send him balloons
And hundred thousands condemn those thousands for doing so.
Some communities even went as far as banning anyone who showed their support for his bullshit.
On April 01 2012 01:51 DwD wrote: Gogo Savior! it's time to forgive him people. He did fixed games, it's not like he murdered a bunch of babies.
He sort of murdered BW ;(
Not even close. People talked for it for what? 2 weeks? Nothing happened at all, no sponsors left, all tournaments and leagues still running. Don't be ridiculous.
On April 01 2012 01:51 DwD wrote: Gogo Savior! it's time to forgive him people. He did fixed games, it's not like he murdered a bunch of babies.
He sort of murdered BW ;(
Not even close. People talked for it for what? 2 weeks? Nothing happened at all, no sponsors left, all tournaments and leagues still running. Don't be ridiculous.
MSL...
(Not that I agree with the whole "Savior murdered BW" thing).
On April 01 2012 01:51 DwD wrote: Gogo Savior! it's time to forgive him people. He did fixed games, it's not like he murdered a bunch of babies.
He sort of murdered BW ;(
Not even close. People talked for it for what? 2 weeks? Nothing happened at all, no sponsors left, all tournaments and leagues still running. Don't be ridiculous.
I'm not so sure about that, I mean with the upcoming OSL not getting a sponsor, the past few starleagues getting sponsors only halfway through the tournament. Teams have died because of this ._. He and the other match-fixers are largely responsible for ruining BW.
OT: He does need to make some money so I do feel some sympathy for the devil, imagine how hard it'll be for him to land himself a job with a reputation and criminal record like that.
On April 01 2012 01:51 DwD wrote: Gogo Savior! it's time to forgive him people. He did fixed games, it's not like he murdered a bunch of babies.
He sort of murdered BW ;(
Not even close. People talked for it for what? 2 weeks? Nothing happened at all, no sponsors left, all tournaments and leagues still running. Don't be ridiculous.
I'm not so sure about that, I mean with the upcoming OSL not getting a sponsor, the past few starleagues getting sponsors only halfway through the tournament. Teams have died because of this ._. He and the other match-fixers are largely responsible for ruining BW.
OT: He does need to make some money so I do feel some sympathy for the devil, imagine how hard it'll be for him to land himself a job with a reputation and criminal record like that.
And you can attribute this to 100% being because of the match fixing?
On April 01 2012 01:51 DwD wrote: Gogo Savior! it's time to forgive him people. He did fixed games, it's not like he murdered a bunch of babies.
He sort of murdered BW ;(
Not even close. People talked for it for what? 2 weeks? Nothing happened at all, no sponsors left, all tournaments and leagues still running. Don't be ridiculous.
are you sure?? the way i see it, he dragged down so many players like hwasin, upmagic, sangho, go.go, luxury etc. that brought about the disbandment of two teams in ESTRO and Sparkyz. the sparkyz merger with CJ did not factor into it because CJ had bought ongamenet long before the scandal. but the fact that so many gamers from sparkyz (practically half) were involved in this scandal forced the merger between the two teams.
On April 01 2012 01:51 DwD wrote: Gogo Savior! it's time to forgive him people. He did fixed games, it's not like he murdered a bunch of babies.
He sort of murdered BW ;(
Not even close. People talked for it for what? 2 weeks? Nothing happened at all, no sponsors left, all tournaments and leagues still running. Don't be ridiculous.
MSL...
(Not that I agree with the whole "Savior murdered BW" thing).
Not because of match fixing.. but the channel stopped showing gaming all together and turned into a music channel?
On April 01 2012 01:51 DwD wrote: Gogo Savior! it's time to forgive him people. He did fixed games, it's not like he murdered a bunch of babies.
He sort of murdered BW ;(
Not even close. People talked for it for what? 2 weeks? Nothing happened at all, no sponsors left, all tournaments and leagues still running. Don't be ridiculous.
are you sure?? the way i see it, he dragged down so many players like hwasin, upmagic, sangho, go.go, luxury etc. that brought about the disbandment of two teams in ESTRO and Sparkyz. the sparkyz merger with CJ did not factor into it because CJ had bought ongamenet long before the scandal. but the fact that so many gamers from sparkyz (practically half) were involved in this scandal forced the merger between the two teams.
Those players dont have a mind of their own? You cant just blame everything on 1 player.
On April 01 2012 01:51 DwD wrote: Gogo Savior! it's time to forgive him people. He did fixed games, it's not like he murdered a bunch of babies.
He sort of murdered BW ;(
Not even close. People talked for it for what? 2 weeks? Nothing happened at all, no sponsors left, all tournaments and leagues still running. Don't be ridiculous.
I'm not so sure about that, I mean with the upcoming OSL not getting a sponsor, the past few starleagues getting sponsors only halfway through the tournament. Teams have died because of this ._. He and the other match-fixers are largely responsible for ruining BW.
OT: He does need to make some money so I do feel some sympathy for the devil, imagine how hard it'll be for him to land himself a job with a reputation and criminal record like that.
And you can attribute this to 100% being because of the match fixing?
Not 100%, but close to that figure. Bringing down a dozen or so talented players such as Luxury and a couple of teams with him sure seems significant.
On April 01 2012 01:51 DwD wrote: Gogo Savior! it's time to forgive him people. He did fixed games, it's not like he murdered a bunch of babies.
He sort of murdered BW ;(
Not even close. People talked for it for what? 2 weeks? Nothing happened at all, no sponsors left, all tournaments and leagues still running. Don't be ridiculous.
I'm not so sure about that, I mean with the upcoming OSL not getting a sponsor, the past few starleagues getting sponsors only halfway through the tournament. Teams have died because of this ._. He and the other match-fixers are largely responsible for ruining BW.
OT: He does need to make some money so I do feel some sympathy for the devil, imagine how hard it'll be for him to land himself a job with a reputation and criminal record like that.
And you can attribute this to 100% being because of the match fixing?
Not 100%, but close to that figure. Bringing down a dozen or so talented players such as Luxury and a couple of teams with him sure seems significant.
Imo they didnt get dragged down by Savior, they chose on their own will to fix games. They dragged themselves down (we might have gone too far offtopic btw ^^)
On April 01 2012 01:51 DwD wrote: Gogo Savior! it's time to forgive him people. He did fixed games, it's not like he murdered a bunch of babies.
He sort of murdered BW ;(
Not even close. People talked for it for what? 2 weeks? Nothing happened at all, no sponsors left, all tournaments and leagues still running. Don't be ridiculous.
I'm not so sure about that, I mean with the upcoming OSL not getting a sponsor, the past few starleagues getting sponsors only halfway through the tournament. Teams have died because of this ._. He and the other match-fixers are largely responsible for ruining BW.
OT: He does need to make some money so I do feel some sympathy for the devil, imagine how hard it'll be for him to land himself a job with a reputation and criminal record like that.
And you can attribute this to 100% being because of the match fixing?
Not 100%, but close to that figure. Bringing down a dozen or so talented players such as Luxury and a couple of teams with him sure seems significant.
Imo they didnt get dragged down by Savior, they chose on their own will to fix games. They dragged themselves down (we might have gone too far offtopic btw ^^)
your opinion is uninformed. savior introduced the players and the ppl paying for matchfixing. savior has been the middleman. savior dragged them down, there was nothing they could have done once introduced.
On April 01 2012 01:51 DwD wrote: Gogo Savior! it's time to forgive him people. He did fixed games, it's not like he murdered a bunch of babies.
He sort of murdered BW ;(
Not even close. People talked for it for what? 2 weeks? Nothing happened at all, no sponsors left, all tournaments and leagues still running. Don't be ridiculous.
I'm not so sure about that, I mean with the upcoming OSL not getting a sponsor, the past few starleagues getting sponsors only halfway through the tournament. Teams have died because of this ._. He and the other match-fixers are largely responsible for ruining BW.
OT: He does need to make some money so I do feel some sympathy for the devil, imagine how hard it'll be for him to land himself a job with a reputation and criminal record like that.
And you can attribute this to 100% being because of the match fixing?
Not 100%, but close to that figure. Bringing down a dozen or so talented players such as Luxury and a couple of teams with him sure seems significant.
Imo they didnt get dragged down by Savior, they chose on their own will to fix games. They dragged themselves down (we might have gone too far offtopic btw ^^)
your opinion is uninformed. savior introduced the players and the ppl paying for matchfixing. savior has been the middleman. savior dragged them down, there was nothing they could have done once introduced.
on topic: dont approve.
He forced them? I don't remember, were they threatened in anyway if they had declined to participate?
On April 01 2012 01:51 DwD wrote: Gogo Savior! it's time to forgive him people. He did fixed games, it's not like he murdered a bunch of babies.
He sort of murdered BW ;(
Not even close. People talked for it for what? 2 weeks? Nothing happened at all, no sponsors left, all tournaments and leagues still running. Don't be ridiculous.
I'm not so sure about that, I mean with the upcoming OSL not getting a sponsor, the past few starleagues getting sponsors only halfway through the tournament. Teams have died because of this ._. He and the other match-fixers are largely responsible for ruining BW.
OT: He does need to make some money so I do feel some sympathy for the devil, imagine how hard it'll be for him to land himself a job with a reputation and criminal record like that.
And you can attribute this to 100% being because of the match fixing?
Not 100%, but close to that figure. Bringing down a dozen or so talented players such as Luxury and a couple of teams with him sure seems significant.
On April 01 2012 01:51 DwD wrote: Gogo Savior! it's time to forgive him people. He did fixed games, it's not like he murdered a bunch of babies.
He sort of murdered BW ;(
Not even close. People talked for it for what? 2 weeks? Nothing happened at all, no sponsors left, all tournaments and leagues still running. Don't be ridiculous.
It was a hot issue for much much longer than 2 weeks, and sponsors did walk sideways. Not to mention Sparkyz disbanding was entirely due to the match fixing scandal.
He is probably one of the greatest players of all time. Despite what he's done, not letting him play would deprive the rest of the world from seeing the greatness of his strategies, though I highly doubt that anyone good enough for us to see him would be taking lessons from him because of the scandal.
On April 01 2012 03:21 FidoDido wrote: instead of coaching players, he should just switch over to sc2 and start pwning!
He's already banned by GOM.
Is this true? I haven't heard of that before. Could you give me a link? Just curious. Thanks. (I would actually like to see him try out SC2... not sure how I think of him though. He was my favorite Zerg player before... :/)
On April 01 2012 03:21 FidoDido wrote: instead of coaching players, he should just switch over to sc2 and start pwning!
He's already banned by GOM.
Is this true? I haven't heard of that before. Could you give me a link? Just curious. Thanks. (I would actually like to see him try out SC2... not sure how I think of him though. He was my favorite Zerg player before... :/)
Yes its true. When KeSPA banned the players who were found guilty of match fixing GOM announced they are also going to ban them from competing in their own leagues.
On April 01 2012 01:51 DwD wrote: Gogo Savior! it's time to forgive him people. He did fixed games, it's not like he murdered a bunch of babies.
He sort of murdered BW ;(
Not even close. People talked for it for what? 2 weeks? Nothing happened at all, no sponsors left, all tournaments and leagues still running. Don't be ridiculous.
I'm not so sure about that, I mean with the upcoming OSL not getting a sponsor, the past few starleagues getting sponsors only halfway through the tournament. Teams have died because of this ._. He and the other match-fixers are largely responsible for ruining BW.
OT: He does need to make some money so I do feel some sympathy for the devil, imagine how hard it'll be for him to land himself a job with a reputation and criminal record like that.
Again, Korea has 3.1% Unemployment. Im sure there is no shortage of demand for hard working disciplined men. If savior managed to become a starcraft pro, he could make a good living in lots of fields in this korean economy.
On April 01 2012 03:21 FidoDido wrote: instead of coaching players, he should just switch over to sc2 and start pwning!
He's already banned by GOM.
What about the foreign scene?
That's retarded and a good way to piss off international Koreans.
The whole idea of this scandal is beyond ridiculous. Yeah he helped people fix matches, there are literally 100 times more people out there who have done much more, and been widely accepted back into society. I'm talking about people like Michael Vick. Last time I checked I value humanity and decent treatment of animals greatly over that of match fixing. People just want to hate someone and something, the sc community is horrible about that.
On April 01 2012 03:21 FidoDido wrote: instead of coaching players, he should just switch over to sc2 and start pwning!
He's already banned by GOM.
What about the foreign scene?
That's retarded and a good way to piss off international Koreans.
The whole idea of this scandal is beyond ridiculous. Yeah he helped people fix matches, there are literally 100 times more people out there who have done much more, and been widely accepted back into society. I'm talking about people like Michael Vick. Last time I checked I value humanity and decent treatment of animals greatly over that of match fixing. People just want to hate someone and something, the sc community is horrible about that.
different culture, different ideals; ever think what it might be like outside your small bubble? what if i told you we eat dogs (which we do btw) and that i can't see why americans get so worked up about a stupid dog fight?
On April 01 2012 03:21 FidoDido wrote: instead of coaching players, he should just switch over to sc2 and start pwning!
He's already banned by GOM.
What about the foreign scene?
That's retarded and a good way to piss off international Koreans.
The whole idea of this scandal is beyond ridiculous. Yeah he helped people fix matches, there are literally 100 times more people out there who have done much more, and been widely accepted back into society. I'm talking about people like Michael Vick. Last time I checked I value humanity and decent treatment of animals greatly over that of match fixing. People just want to hate someone and something, the sc community is horrible about that.
Michael Vick didn't destroy the face of the NFL then came back to make money off of it. Michael Vick wasn't a top Quarterback in the NFL when he did it. Vick didn't drag other top pros into it.
Savior destroyed the face of Brood-War, yet he still wants to make money off of it. That's just a disgrace.
On April 01 2012 03:21 FidoDido wrote: instead of coaching players, he should just switch over to sc2 and start pwning!
He's already banned by GOM.
What about the foreign scene?
That's retarded and a good way to piss off international Koreans.
The whole idea of this scandal is beyond ridiculous. Yeah he helped people fix matches, there are literally 100 times more people out there who have done much more, and been widely accepted back into society. I'm talking about people like Michael Vick. Last time I checked I value humanity and decent treatment of animals greatly over that of match fixing. People just want to hate someone and something, the sc community is horrible about that.
different culture, different ideals; ever think what it might be like outside your small bubble? what if i told you we eat dogs (which we do btw) and that i can't see why americans get so worked up about a stupid dog fight?
It isn't even a different culture. He just thinks because one is worse morally that you should be punished more harshly if you commit that crime. Dog fighting does not destroy the integrity of the NFL. The NFL is still perceived as a normal sports organization where the better team that day wins. With match fixing however it creates questions about that integrity and can destroy smaller organizations.
On April 01 2012 03:21 FidoDido wrote: instead of coaching players, he should just switch over to sc2 and start pwning!
He's already banned by GOM.
What about the foreign scene?
That's retarded and a good way to piss off international Koreans.
The whole idea of this scandal is beyond ridiculous. Yeah he helped people fix matches, there are literally 100 times more people out there who have done much more, and been widely accepted back into society. I'm talking about people like Michael Vick. Last time I checked I value humanity and decent treatment of animals greatly over that of match fixing. People just want to hate someone and something, the sc community is horrible about that.
different culture, different ideals; ever think what it might be like outside your small bubble? what if i told you we eat dogs (which we do btw) and that i can't see why americans get so worked up about a stupid dog fight?
It isn't even a different culture. He just thinks because one is worse morally that you should be punished more harshly if you commit that crime. Dog fighting does not destroy the integrity of the NFL. The NFL is still perceived as a normal sports organization where the better team that day wins. With match fixing however it creates questions about that integrity and can destroy smaller organizations.
It has everything to do with culture, the Korean culture has a lot more sense of pride which is really the enemy here, the events of sAviOr cannot be detrimental to the scene unless it is made so by the population.
On April 01 2012 03:21 FidoDido wrote: instead of coaching players, he should just switch over to sc2 and start pwning!
He's already banned by GOM.
What about the foreign scene?
That's retarded and a good way to piss off international Koreans.
The whole idea of this scandal is beyond ridiculous. Yeah he helped people fix matches, there are literally 100 times more people out there who have done much more, and been widely accepted back into society. I'm talking about people like Michael Vick. Last time I checked I value humanity and decent treatment of animals greatly over that of match fixing. People just want to hate someone and something, the sc community is horrible about that.
different culture, different ideals; ever think what it might be like outside your small bubble? what if i told you we eat dogs (which we do btw) and that i can't see why americans get so worked up about a stupid dog fight?
It isn't even a different culture. He just thinks because one is worse morally that you should be punished more harshly if you commit that crime. Dog fighting does not destroy the integrity of the NFL. The NFL is still perceived as a normal sports organization where the better team that day wins. With match fixing however it creates questions about that integrity and can destroy smaller organizations.
It has everything to do with culture, the Korean culture has a lot more sense of pride which is really the enemy here, the events of sAviOr cannot be detrimental to the scene unless it is made so by the population.
i would like to hear more on how it cannot be detrimental to the scene when it has already proven to be so im not saying his actions were 100% responsible for CJ's coach cho leaving, MBC Heroes/Hite Sparkies/Hwaseung Oz/Wemade Fox/Estro disbanding, MSL/MBC game shutting down, a bunch of esports players and staff losing their jobs in the process, and OSL having difficulty finding sponsors, but surely some blame lies with savior, no? And what savior did caused a whole lot more damage than what the honest players (a lot of whom got the shaft for savior's actions) ever did to hurt the BW scene. savior shouldn't carry 100% of the blame, I agree, but neither does he deserve any vindication, especially when he's a douchebag.
Anyway please stop saying he dragged others into it as to take away their guilt and put it on savior. I bet savior was pulled into it by someone outside just the same way. Doesn't mean he is not responsible for what he did.
All of them were equally tempted by a quick buck all of them are equally guilty for their match fixing. The gravity of their actions might be different due to savior being held up to higher standards and the stakes were higher. But he is not responsible for the others.
On April 01 2012 03:21 FidoDido wrote: instead of coaching players, he should just switch over to sc2 and start pwning!
He's already banned by GOM.
What about the foreign scene?
That's retarded and a good way to piss off international Koreans.
The whole idea of this scandal is beyond ridiculous. Yeah he helped people fix matches, there are literally 100 times more people out there who have done much more, and been widely accepted back into society. I'm talking about people like Michael Vick. Last time I checked I value humanity and decent treatment of animals greatly over that of match fixing. People just want to hate someone and something, the sc community is horrible about that.
different culture, different ideals; ever think what it might be like outside your small bubble? what if i told you we eat dogs (which we do btw) and that i can't see why americans get so worked up about a stupid dog fight?
It isn't even a different culture. He just thinks because one is worse morally that you should be punished more harshly if you commit that crime. Dog fighting does not destroy the integrity of the NFL. The NFL is still perceived as a normal sports organization where the better team that day wins. With match fixing however it creates questions about that integrity and can destroy smaller organizations.
It has everything to do with culture, the Korean culture has a lot more sense of pride which is really the enemy here, the events of sAviOr cannot be detrimental to the scene unless it is made so by the population.
i would like to hear more on how it cannot be detrimental to the scene when it has already proven to be so im not saying his actions were 100% responsible for CJ's coach cho leaving, MBC Heroes/Hite Sparkies/Hwaseung Oz/Wemade Fox/Estro disbanding, MSL/MBC game shutting down, a bunch of esports players and staff losing their jobs in the process, and OSL having difficulty finding sponsors, but surely some blame lies with savior, no? And what savior did caused a whole lot more damage than what the honest players (a lot of whom got the shaft for savior's actions) ever did to hurt the BW scene. savior shouldn't carry 100% of the blame, I agree, but neither does he deserve any vindication, especially when he's a douchebag.
Well one for sure, he is man that keeps to his words. "I will destroy everyone in 2009." And damn right he did.
On April 01 2012 09:21 askTeivospy wrote: not sure why anyone would give money to a cheater that only wants money
They don't give him money for cheating but providing valuable coaching and high level stream. And if your parents don't pay for everything you do want money.
On April 01 2012 09:20 HeaDStrong wrote: Anyway please stop saying he dragged others into it as to take away their guilt and put it on savior. I bet savior was pulled into it by someone outside just the same way. Doesn't mean he is not responsible for what he did.
All of them were equally tempted by a quick buck all of them are equally guilty for their match fixing. The gravity of their actions might be different due to savior being held up to higher standards and the stakes were higher. But he is not responsible for the others.
He introduced the players to the ordeal and brokered the transactions, meaning he facilitated the transfer of money between the betting companies and the players, establishing himself as the "go-to man" for this sort of illegal match fixing to make a quick buck. I guess that wasn't enough for him though, as he actually ripped off thousands of dollars from the deals he brokered, meaning he didn't pay the players he was supposed to deliver the money to in full, and pocketed some. This was all in the official police reports, and it says in print that he was responsible for the others' involvement, so yea I'd say it's pretty justified to claim that he dragged others into it. That's why savior got slammed with a one year sentence in jail while others got off with a monetary fine.
it's not the level of standards savior was held up to; it was savior's level of involvement, and the acts of doucebaggery that followed the scandal that heightened the gravity of his actions among BW fans.
On April 01 2012 09:20 HeaDStrong wrote: Anyway please stop saying he dragged others into it as to take away their guilt and put it on savior. I bet savior was pulled into it by someone outside just the same way. Doesn't mean he is not responsible for what he did.
All of them were equally tempted by a quick buck all of them are equally guilty for their match fixing. The gravity of their actions might be different due to savior being held up to higher standards and the stakes were higher. But he is not responsible for the others.
He introduced the players to the ordeal and brokered the transactions, meaning he facilitated the transfer of money between the betting companies and the players, establishing himself as the "go-to man" for this sort of illegal match fixing to make a quick buck. I guess that wasn't enough for him though, as he actually ripped off thousands of dollars from the deals he brokered, meaning he didn't pay the players he was supposed to deliver the money to in full, and pocketed some. This was all in the official police reports, so yea I'd say it's pretty justified to claim that he dragged others into it.
it's not the level of standards savior was held up to; it was savior's level of involvement, and the acts of doucebaggery that followed the scandal that heightened the gravity of his actions among BW fans.
All I was saying is that you can't take away guilt from any of the involved players. Okay, my wording was poor and it might seem as if I said so. But every player involved had the choice to walk away or rat him out. They were greedy and happily fixed their matches.
On April 01 2012 03:21 FidoDido wrote: instead of coaching players, he should just switch over to sc2 and start pwning!
He's already banned by GOM.
What about the foreign scene?
That's retarded and a good way to piss off international Koreans.
The whole idea of this scandal is beyond ridiculous. Yeah he helped people fix matches, there are literally 100 times more people out there who have done much more, and been widely accepted back into society. I'm talking about people like Michael Vick. Last time I checked I value humanity and decent treatment of animals greatly over that of match fixing. People just want to hate someone and something, the sc community is horrible about that.
different culture, different ideals; ever think what it might be like outside your small bubble? what if i told you we eat dogs (which we do btw) and that i can't see why americans get so worked up about a stupid dog fight?
It isn't even a different culture. He just thinks because one is worse morally that you should be punished more harshly if you commit that crime. Dog fighting does not destroy the integrity of the NFL. The NFL is still perceived as a normal sports organization where the better team that day wins. With match fixing however it creates questions about that integrity and can destroy smaller organizations.
It has everything to do with culture, the Korean culture has a lot more sense of pride which is really the enemy here, the events of sAviOr cannot be detrimental to the scene unless it is made so by the population.
i would like to hear more on how it cannot be detrimental to the scene when it has already proven to be so im not saying his actions were 100% responsible for CJ's coach cho leaving, MBC Heroes/Hite Sparkies/Hwaseung Oz/Wemade Fox/Estro disbanding, MSL/MBC game shutting down, a bunch of esports players and staff losing their jobs in the process, and OSL having difficulty finding sponsors, but surely some blame lies with savior, no? And what savior did caused a whole lot more damage than what the honest players (a lot of whom got the shaft for savior's actions) ever did to hurt the BW scene. savior shouldn't carry 100% of the blame, I agree, but neither does he deserve any vindication, especially when he's a douchebag.
I think there's a misunderstand here, yes what savior did was bad. However, the choices that were made afterwards by the people is what we attribute to savior. You can think of Savior as merely being the fuse to a bomb, yes, the fuse ignited the explosion and we cannot love him for that, however, the people were the ones that determined that it were to be a nuclear warhead rather than a frag grenade. Given less pride and personal dignity on behalf of many individuals, the explosion could have been severely limited. That being, even if someone does something bad, things can only degrade to whatever level we allow them to. Everyone need to get off their high horse, take off that white wig and realize that they're not too good or too honorable to be associated with e-sports, the general populace needs to calm down and once everyone's settled on the fact whatever happened happened, they can all go back to their usual and when this happens, sponsorship will return because good business is to please the people you want to market to.
So, the misunderstanding is I don't think sAviOr should be forgiven by the proscene, but what happened to them wasn't savior's doing, it was their own, every individual who went crazy when the event went down is responsible. not just one man. No one has power unless it is given to them by other people.
On April 01 2012 03:21 FidoDido wrote: instead of coaching players, he should just switch over to sc2 and start pwning!
He's already banned by GOM.
What about the foreign scene?
That's retarded and a good way to piss off international Koreans.
The whole idea of this scandal is beyond ridiculous. Yeah he helped people fix matches, there are literally 100 times more people out there who have done much more, and been widely accepted back into society. I'm talking about people like Michael Vick. Last time I checked I value humanity and decent treatment of animals greatly over that of match fixing. People just want to hate someone and something, the sc community is horrible about that.
different culture, different ideals; ever think what it might be like outside your small bubble? what if i told you we eat dogs (which we do btw) and that i can't see why americans get so worked up about a stupid dog fight?
It isn't even a different culture. He just thinks because one is worse morally that you should be punished more harshly if you commit that crime. Dog fighting does not destroy the integrity of the NFL. The NFL is still perceived as a normal sports organization where the better team that day wins. With match fixing however it creates questions about that integrity and can destroy smaller organizations.
It has everything to do with culture, the Korean culture has a lot more sense of pride which is really the enemy here, the events of sAviOr cannot be detrimental to the scene unless it is made so by the population.
i would like to hear more on how it cannot be detrimental to the scene when it has already proven to be so im not saying his actions were 100% responsible for CJ's coach cho leaving, MBC Heroes/Hite Sparkies/Hwaseung Oz/Wemade Fox/Estro disbanding, MSL/MBC game shutting down, a bunch of esports players and staff losing their jobs in the process, and OSL having difficulty finding sponsors, but surely some blame lies with savior, no? And what savior did caused a whole lot more damage than what the honest players (a lot of whom got the shaft for savior's actions) ever did to hurt the BW scene. savior shouldn't carry 100% of the blame, I agree, but neither does he deserve any vindication, especially when he's a douchebag.
I think there's a misunderstand here, yes what savior did was bad. However, the choices that were made afterwards by the people is what we attribute to savior. You can think of Savior as merely being the fuse to a bomb, yes, the fuse ignited the explosion and we cannot love him for that, however, the people were the ones that determined that it were to be a nuclear warhead rather than a frag grenade. Given less pride and personal dignity on behalf of many individuals, the explosion could have been severely limited. That being, even if someone does something bad, things can only degrade to whatever level we allow them to. Everyone need to get off their high horse, take off that white wig and realize that they're not too good or too honorable to be associated with e-sports, the general populace needs to calm down and once everyone's settled on the fact whatever happened happened, they can all go back to their usual and when this happens, sponsorship will return because good business is to please the people you want to market to.
So, the misunderstanding is I don't think sAviOr should be forgiven by the proscene, but what happened to them wasn't savior's doing, it was their own, every individual who went crazy when the event went down is responsible. not just one man. No one has power unless it is given to them by other people.
I see your point, and apologize if I came off a tad aggressive. I agree with you in a way, but at the same time it's difficult (for me at least) to shift any blame from the wrong-doers to us fans when we've done nothing but support the players and the scene. The initial feeling of betrayal, and then the bitterness that comes from savior being all up in your face like "hey I'm gonna make some more money off of BW, don't care what you other bitchez say cuz i do what i want lulz" (don't quote me on this, as the quote might be made up) when good people have lost their career (partly) because of what happened, make it difficult to see it any other way. We just react to what savior did/is doing the way according to how we were taught in our upbringing, but I guess an opinion from an outsider holds some objectivity that may be lacking from the fans' perspective.
On April 01 2012 04:16 TheButtonmen wrote: [quote]
He's already banned by GOM.
What about the foreign scene?
That's retarded and a good way to piss off international Koreans.
The whole idea of this scandal is beyond ridiculous. Yeah he helped people fix matches, there are literally 100 times more people out there who have done much more, and been widely accepted back into society. I'm talking about people like Michael Vick. Last time I checked I value humanity and decent treatment of animals greatly over that of match fixing. People just want to hate someone and something, the sc community is horrible about that.
different culture, different ideals; ever think what it might be like outside your small bubble? what if i told you we eat dogs (which we do btw) and that i can't see why americans get so worked up about a stupid dog fight?
It isn't even a different culture. He just thinks because one is worse morally that you should be punished more harshly if you commit that crime. Dog fighting does not destroy the integrity of the NFL. The NFL is still perceived as a normal sports organization where the better team that day wins. With match fixing however it creates questions about that integrity and can destroy smaller organizations.
It has everything to do with culture, the Korean culture has a lot more sense of pride which is really the enemy here, the events of sAviOr cannot be detrimental to the scene unless it is made so by the population.
i would like to hear more on how it cannot be detrimental to the scene when it has already proven to be so im not saying his actions were 100% responsible for CJ's coach cho leaving, MBC Heroes/Hite Sparkies/Hwaseung Oz/Wemade Fox/Estro disbanding, MSL/MBC game shutting down, a bunch of esports players and staff losing their jobs in the process, and OSL having difficulty finding sponsors, but surely some blame lies with savior, no? And what savior did caused a whole lot more damage than what the honest players (a lot of whom got the shaft for savior's actions) ever did to hurt the BW scene. savior shouldn't carry 100% of the blame, I agree, but neither does he deserve any vindication, especially when he's a douchebag.
I think there's a misunderstand here, yes what savior did was bad. However, the choices that were made afterwards by the people is what we attribute to savior. You can think of Savior as merely being the fuse to a bomb, yes, the fuse ignited the explosion and we cannot love him for that, however, the people were the ones that determined that it were to be a nuclear warhead rather than a frag grenade. Given less pride and personal dignity on behalf of many individuals, the explosion could have been severely limited. That being, even if someone does something bad, things can only degrade to whatever level we allow them to. Everyone need to get off their high horse, take off that white wig and realize that they're not too good or too honorable to be associated with e-sports, the general populace needs to calm down and once everyone's settled on the fact whatever happened happened, they can all go back to their usual and when this happens, sponsorship will return because good business is to please the people you want to market to.
So, the misunderstanding is I don't think sAviOr should be forgiven by the proscene, but what happened to them wasn't savior's doing, it was their own, every individual who went crazy when the event went down is responsible. not just one man. No one has power unless it is given to them by other people.
I see your point, and apologize if I came off a tad aggressive. I agree with you in a way, but at the same time it's difficult (for me at least) to shift any blame from the wrong-doers to us fans when we've done nothing but support the players and the scene. The initial feeling of betrayal, and then the bitterness that comes from savior being all up in your face like "hey I'm gonna make some more money off of BW, don't care what you other bitchez say cuz i do what i want lulz" (don't quote me on this, as the quote might be made up) when good people have lost their career (partly) because of what happened.
Only people I am putting fault on are the commentator that got overly aggressive toward the incident and made a huge deal with it. If I remember correct, there is only one commentator that was mad while the others remained calm. How can you expect the rest of us to stay calm when a BW rep is making such a big scene?
That's retarded and a good way to piss off international Koreans.
The whole idea of this scandal is beyond ridiculous. Yeah he helped people fix matches, there are literally 100 times more people out there who have done much more, and been widely accepted back into society. I'm talking about people like Michael Vick. Last time I checked I value humanity and decent treatment of animals greatly over that of match fixing. People just want to hate someone and something, the sc community is horrible about that.
different culture, different ideals; ever think what it might be like outside your small bubble? what if i told you we eat dogs (which we do btw) and that i can't see why americans get so worked up about a stupid dog fight?
It isn't even a different culture. He just thinks because one is worse morally that you should be punished more harshly if you commit that crime. Dog fighting does not destroy the integrity of the NFL. The NFL is still perceived as a normal sports organization where the better team that day wins. With match fixing however it creates questions about that integrity and can destroy smaller organizations.
It has everything to do with culture, the Korean culture has a lot more sense of pride which is really the enemy here, the events of sAviOr cannot be detrimental to the scene unless it is made so by the population.
i would like to hear more on how it cannot be detrimental to the scene when it has already proven to be so im not saying his actions were 100% responsible for CJ's coach cho leaving, MBC Heroes/Hite Sparkies/Hwaseung Oz/Wemade Fox/Estro disbanding, MSL/MBC game shutting down, a bunch of esports players and staff losing their jobs in the process, and OSL having difficulty finding sponsors, but surely some blame lies with savior, no? And what savior did caused a whole lot more damage than what the honest players (a lot of whom got the shaft for savior's actions) ever did to hurt the BW scene. savior shouldn't carry 100% of the blame, I agree, but neither does he deserve any vindication, especially when he's a douchebag.
I think there's a misunderstand here, yes what savior did was bad. However, the choices that were made afterwards by the people is what we attribute to savior. You can think of Savior as merely being the fuse to a bomb, yes, the fuse ignited the explosion and we cannot love him for that, however, the people were the ones that determined that it were to be a nuclear warhead rather than a frag grenade. Given less pride and personal dignity on behalf of many individuals, the explosion could have been severely limited. That being, even if someone does something bad, things can only degrade to whatever level we allow them to. Everyone need to get off their high horse, take off that white wig and realize that they're not too good or too honorable to be associated with e-sports, the general populace needs to calm down and once everyone's settled on the fact whatever happened happened, they can all go back to their usual and when this happens, sponsorship will return because good business is to please the people you want to market to.
So, the misunderstanding is I don't think sAviOr should be forgiven by the proscene, but what happened to them wasn't savior's doing, it was their own, every individual who went crazy when the event went down is responsible. not just one man. No one has power unless it is given to them by other people.
I see your point, and apologize if I came off a tad aggressive. I agree with you in a way, but at the same time it's difficult (for me at least) to shift any blame from the wrong-doers to us fans when we've done nothing but support the players and the scene. The initial feeling of betrayal, and then the bitterness that comes from savior being all up in your face like "hey I'm gonna make some more money off of BW, don't care what you other bitchez say cuz i do what i want lulz" (don't quote me on this, as the quote might be made up) when good people have lost their career (partly) because of what happened.
Only people I am putting fault on are the commentator that got overly aggressive toward the incident and made a huge deal with it. If I remember correct, there is only one commentator that was mad while the others remained calm. How can you expect the rest of us to stay calm when a BW rep is making such a big scene?
well to me that episode of backtalk had the opposite effect: it's their job to remain utterly calm and nonchalant on TV, and the fact that even one of them got riled up enough to swear on air means it was a HUGE deal. And trust me, it wasn't just one commentator, there's a thread on TL that has links to twitter feeds of esports personnel expressing their anger. savior had enough fans to smother the "one BW rep" if there were little validity to his claims, but the overwhelming majority of the Korean BW fans agreed savior is an ass-hat and deserves all the hate being thrown at him before the episode aired, so I don't think it was a sheep-herding phenomenon like you described.
That's retarded and a good way to piss off international Koreans.
The whole idea of this scandal is beyond ridiculous. Yeah he helped people fix matches, there are literally 100 times more people out there who have done much more, and been widely accepted back into society. I'm talking about people like Michael Vick. Last time I checked I value humanity and decent treatment of animals greatly over that of match fixing. People just want to hate someone and something, the sc community is horrible about that.
different culture, different ideals; ever think what it might be like outside your small bubble? what if i told you we eat dogs (which we do btw) and that i can't see why americans get so worked up about a stupid dog fight?
It isn't even a different culture. He just thinks because one is worse morally that you should be punished more harshly if you commit that crime. Dog fighting does not destroy the integrity of the NFL. The NFL is still perceived as a normal sports organization where the better team that day wins. With match fixing however it creates questions about that integrity and can destroy smaller organizations.
It has everything to do with culture, the Korean culture has a lot more sense of pride which is really the enemy here, the events of sAviOr cannot be detrimental to the scene unless it is made so by the population.
i would like to hear more on how it cannot be detrimental to the scene when it has already proven to be so im not saying his actions were 100% responsible for CJ's coach cho leaving, MBC Heroes/Hite Sparkies/Hwaseung Oz/Wemade Fox/Estro disbanding, MSL/MBC game shutting down, a bunch of esports players and staff losing their jobs in the process, and OSL having difficulty finding sponsors, but surely some blame lies with savior, no? And what savior did caused a whole lot more damage than what the honest players (a lot of whom got the shaft for savior's actions) ever did to hurt the BW scene. savior shouldn't carry 100% of the blame, I agree, but neither does he deserve any vindication, especially when he's a douchebag.
I think there's a misunderstand here, yes what savior did was bad. However, the choices that were made afterwards by the people is what we attribute to savior. You can think of Savior as merely being the fuse to a bomb, yes, the fuse ignited the explosion and we cannot love him for that, however, the people were the ones that determined that it were to be a nuclear warhead rather than a frag grenade. Given less pride and personal dignity on behalf of many individuals, the explosion could have been severely limited. That being, even if someone does something bad, things can only degrade to whatever level we allow them to. Everyone need to get off their high horse, take off that white wig and realize that they're not too good or too honorable to be associated with e-sports, the general populace needs to calm down and once everyone's settled on the fact whatever happened happened, they can all go back to their usual and when this happens, sponsorship will return because good business is to please the people you want to market to.
So, the misunderstanding is I don't think sAviOr should be forgiven by the proscene, but what happened to them wasn't savior's doing, it was their own, every individual who went crazy when the event went down is responsible. not just one man. No one has power unless it is given to them by other people.
I see your point, and apologize if I came off a tad aggressive. I agree with you in a way, but at the same time it's difficult (for me at least) to shift any blame from the wrong-doers to us fans when we've done nothing but support the players and the scene. The initial feeling of betrayal, and then the bitterness that comes from savior being all up in your face like "hey I'm gonna make some more money off of BW, don't care what you other bitchez say cuz i do what i want lulz" (don't quote me on this, as the quote might be made up) when good people have lost their career (partly) because of what happened.
Only people I am putting fault on are the commentator that got overly aggressive toward the incident and made a huge deal with it. If I remember correct, there is only one commentator that was mad while the others remained calm. How can you expect the rest of us to stay calm when a BW rep is making such a big scene?
well to me that episode of backtalk had the opposite effect: it's their job to remain utterly calm and nonchalant on TV, and the fact that even one of them got riled up enough to swear on air means it was a HUGE deal. And trust me, it wasn't just one commentator, there's a thread on TL that has links to twitter feeds of esports personnel expressing their anger. savior had enough fans to smother the "one BW rep" if there was little validity to his claims, but the overwhelming majority of the Korean fans agree savior is an ass-hat and deserves all the hate being thrown at him.
Well I was just thinking. What if everyone manage to chill under that condition. People got those news from websites like Fomos or Daily-esports. What if the writers casually informed everyone about the situation without the need of disseminating anger towards the culprit. The netizens would view the entire incident more lightly. I means if no one makes a big of deal of it, then the sponsors wouldn't either.
On April 01 2012 04:16 TheButtonmen wrote: [quote]
He's already banned by GOM.
What about the foreign scene?
That's retarded and a good way to piss off international Koreans.
The whole idea of this scandal is beyond ridiculous. Yeah he helped people fix matches, there are literally 100 times more people out there who have done much more, and been widely accepted back into society. I'm talking about people like Michael Vick. Last time I checked I value humanity and decent treatment of animals greatly over that of match fixing. People just want to hate someone and something, the sc community is horrible about that.
different culture, different ideals; ever think what it might be like outside your small bubble? what if i told you we eat dogs (which we do btw) and that i can't see why americans get so worked up about a stupid dog fight?
It isn't even a different culture. He just thinks because one is worse morally that you should be punished more harshly if you commit that crime. Dog fighting does not destroy the integrity of the NFL. The NFL is still perceived as a normal sports organization where the better team that day wins. With match fixing however it creates questions about that integrity and can destroy smaller organizations.
It has everything to do with culture, the Korean culture has a lot more sense of pride which is really the enemy here, the events of sAviOr cannot be detrimental to the scene unless it is made so by the population.
i would like to hear more on how it cannot be detrimental to the scene when it has already proven to be so im not saying his actions were 100% responsible for CJ's coach cho leaving, MBC Heroes/Hite Sparkies/Hwaseung Oz/Wemade Fox/Estro disbanding, MSL/MBC game shutting down, a bunch of esports players and staff losing their jobs in the process, and OSL having difficulty finding sponsors, but surely some blame lies with savior, no? And what savior did caused a whole lot more damage than what the honest players (a lot of whom got the shaft for savior's actions) ever did to hurt the BW scene. savior shouldn't carry 100% of the blame, I agree, but neither does he deserve any vindication, especially when he's a douchebag.
I think there's a misunderstand here, yes what savior did was bad. However, the choices that were made afterwards by the people is what we attribute to savior. You can think of Savior as merely being the fuse to a bomb, yes, the fuse ignited the explosion and we cannot love him for that, however, the people were the ones that determined that it were to be a nuclear warhead rather than a frag grenade. Given less pride and personal dignity on behalf of many individuals, the explosion could have been severely limited. That being, even if someone does something bad, things can only degrade to whatever level we allow them to. Everyone need to get off their high horse, take off that white wig and realize that they're not too good or too honorable to be associated with e-sports, the general populace needs to calm down and once everyone's settled on the fact whatever happened happened, they can all go back to their usual and when this happens, sponsorship will return because good business is to please the people you want to market to.
So, the misunderstanding is I don't think sAviOr should be forgiven by the proscene, but what happened to them wasn't savior's doing, it was their own, every individual who went crazy when the event went down is responsible. not just one man. No one has power unless it is given to them by other people.
I see your point, and apologize if I came off a tad aggressive. I agree with you in a way, but at the same time it's difficult (for me at least) to shift any blame from the wrong-doers to us fans when we've done nothing but support the players and the scene. The initial feeling of betrayal, and then the bitterness that comes from savior being all up in your face like "hey I'm gonna make some more money off of BW, don't care what you other bitchez say cuz i do what i want lulz" (don't quote me on this, as the quote might be made up) when good people have lost their career (partly) because of what happened, make it difficult to see it any other way. We just react to what savior did/is doing the way according to how we were taught in our upbringing, but I guess an opinion from an outsider holds some objectivity that may be lacking from the fans' perspective.
That's a really tricky part to it, in truth, blaming the fans won't accomplish any more than ranting on about sAviOr. At the end of the day, we have to look at the situation and look to ourselves and not what we think is right concerning the past, but what is right moving forward. If we can accomplish this, then esports will flourish ten fold.
Thought process:
1) Individual recognizes the problem.
2) Individual puts the blame on sAviOr for what has been done to the scene
3) Individual spends his time ranting about sAviOr
Event: Scene crumbles, no one wants their sponsorship to go to something that people think negatively about, the whole reason to sponsor is you get your product in front of the viewer's eye while they're feeling very positive, then what happens, the viewer will subconsciously associate the images to a positive moment.
1) Individual recognizes the problem.
2) Individual recognizes what sAviOr did and identifies it to have wronged the scene.
3) Individual looks further into the problem and identifies that sAviOr's actions are only powerful if they are channeled through himself.
4) Individual continues to enjoy what is left of the scene and contributes here and there to make things better.
Event: Scene grows, everyone wants to sponsor this because people are over past events, it's a new scene with new or renewed people who just want to have fun playing and watching Brood War.
Basically, what I'm saying is regardless of how bad things get, pointing fingers only makes things worse. (even if deserved)
That's retarded and a good way to piss off international Koreans.
The whole idea of this scandal is beyond ridiculous. Yeah he helped people fix matches, there are literally 100 times more people out there who have done much more, and been widely accepted back into society. I'm talking about people like Michael Vick. Last time I checked I value humanity and decent treatment of animals greatly over that of match fixing. People just want to hate someone and something, the sc community is horrible about that.
different culture, different ideals; ever think what it might be like outside your small bubble? what if i told you we eat dogs (which we do btw) and that i can't see why americans get so worked up about a stupid dog fight?
It isn't even a different culture. He just thinks because one is worse morally that you should be punished more harshly if you commit that crime. Dog fighting does not destroy the integrity of the NFL. The NFL is still perceived as a normal sports organization where the better team that day wins. With match fixing however it creates questions about that integrity and can destroy smaller organizations.
It has everything to do with culture, the Korean culture has a lot more sense of pride which is really the enemy here, the events of sAviOr cannot be detrimental to the scene unless it is made so by the population.
i would like to hear more on how it cannot be detrimental to the scene when it has already proven to be so im not saying his actions were 100% responsible for CJ's coach cho leaving, MBC Heroes/Hite Sparkies/Hwaseung Oz/Wemade Fox/Estro disbanding, MSL/MBC game shutting down, a bunch of esports players and staff losing their jobs in the process, and OSL having difficulty finding sponsors, but surely some blame lies with savior, no? And what savior did caused a whole lot more damage than what the honest players (a lot of whom got the shaft for savior's actions) ever did to hurt the BW scene. savior shouldn't carry 100% of the blame, I agree, but neither does he deserve any vindication, especially when he's a douchebag.
I think there's a misunderstand here, yes what savior did was bad. However, the choices that were made afterwards by the people is what we attribute to savior. You can think of Savior as merely being the fuse to a bomb, yes, the fuse ignited the explosion and we cannot love him for that, however, the people were the ones that determined that it were to be a nuclear warhead rather than a frag grenade. Given less pride and personal dignity on behalf of many individuals, the explosion could have been severely limited. That being, even if someone does something bad, things can only degrade to whatever level we allow them to. Everyone need to get off their high horse, take off that white wig and realize that they're not too good or too honorable to be associated with e-sports, the general populace needs to calm down and once everyone's settled on the fact whatever happened happened, they can all go back to their usual and when this happens, sponsorship will return because good business is to please the people you want to market to.
So, the misunderstanding is I don't think sAviOr should be forgiven by the proscene, but what happened to them wasn't savior's doing, it was their own, every individual who went crazy when the event went down is responsible. not just one man. No one has power unless it is given to them by other people.
I see your point, and apologize if I came off a tad aggressive. I agree with you in a way, but at the same time it's difficult (for me at least) to shift any blame from the wrong-doers to us fans when we've done nothing but support the players and the scene. The initial feeling of betrayal, and then the bitterness that comes from savior being all up in your face like "hey I'm gonna make some more money off of BW, don't care what you other bitchez say cuz i do what i want lulz" (don't quote me on this, as the quote might be made up) when good people have lost their career (partly) because of what happened, make it difficult to see it any other way. We just react to what savior did/is doing the way according to how we were taught in our upbringing, but I guess an opinion from an outsider holds some objectivity that may be lacking from the fans' perspective.
That's a really tricky part to it, in truth, blaming the fans won't accomplish any more than ranting on about sAviOr. At the end of the day, we have to look at the situation and look to ourselves and not what we think is right concerning the past, but what is right moving forward. If we can accomplish this, then esports will flourish ten fold.
Thought process:
1) Individual recognizes the problem.
2) Individual puts the blame on sAviOr for what has been done to the scene
3) Individual spends his time ranting about sAviOr
Event: Scene crumbles, no one wants their sponsorship to go to something that people think negatively about, the whole reason to sponsor is you get your product in front of the viewer's eye while they're feeling very positive, then what happens, the viewer will subconsciously associate the images to a positive moment.
1) Individual recognizes the problem.
2) Individual recognizes what sAviOr did and identifies it to have wronged the scene.
3) Individual looks further into the problem and identifies that sAviOr's actions are only powerful if they are channeled through himself.
4) Individual continues to enjoy what is left of the scene and contributes here and there to make things better.
Event: Scene grows, everyone wants to sponsor this because people are over past events, it's a new scene with new or renewed people who just want to have fun playing and watching Brood War.
Basically, what I'm saying is regardless of how bad things get, pointing fingers only makes things worse. (even if deserved)
Thank you! Certainly did worded the whole argument better than me lol
I agree, and I think the fans quieted down after a bit, but other factors were at play so BW ran its natural course on a slow but steady decline. Honestly I believe how the fans reacted has very little to do with BW's gradual fall, and certainly much less than just the general loss of interest in the scene that had been building for years. We only get riled up about this stuff when savior makes announcements like "IMA STREAM BW, GIMME MONEYZ" or "IMA TEACH BW, GIMME MONEYZ" not two years after the scandal happened, when it's part of our culture to repent and self-reflect when you've made a mistake. savior did none of that, and that's the beef I have with him. I would be way more accepting of players like hwasin or luxury teaching BW for $25/hr.
On April 01 2012 10:08 rotinegg wrote: I agree, and I think the fans quieted down after a bit, but other factors were at play so BW ran its natural course on a slow but steady decline. Honestly I believe how the fans reacted has very little to do with BW's gradual fall, and certainly much less than just the general loss of interest in the scene that had been building for years. We only get riled up about this stuff when savior makes announcements like "IMA STREAM BW, GIMME MONEYZ" or "IMA TEACH BW, GIMME MONEYZ" not two years after the scandal happened, when it's part of our culture to repent and self-reflect when you've made a mistake. savior did none of that, and that's the beef I have with him. I would be way more accepting of players like hwasin or luxury teaching BW for $25/hr.
On April 01 2012 10:14 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Oh hell, I loved Luxury, but if I were gonna shell out money for lessons, it wouldn't be for him or Hwasin
We need a "Match Scandal: Where are they now" TLFE.
I'm hoping that most of the guilty party become typical, functional members of society.
On April 01 2012 10:08 rotinegg wrote: I agree, and I think the fans quieted down after a bit, but other factors were at play so BW ran its natural course on a slow but steady decline. Honestly I believe how the fans reacted has very little to do with BW's gradual fall, and certainly much less than just the general loss of interest in the scene that had been building for years. We only get riled up about this stuff when savior makes announcements like "IMA STREAM BW, GIMME MONEYZ" or "IMA TEACH BW, GIMME MONEYZ" not two years after the scandal happened, when it's part of our culture to repent and self-reflect when you've made a mistake. savior did none of that, and that's the beef I have with him. I would be way more accepting of players like hwasin or luxury teaching BW for $25/hr.
Say what?
broke down in tears in front of his head coach when the police contacted CJ Entus regarding the scandal, saying "BELIEVE ME COACH I DIDNT DO IT TT_TT", coach cho believes him and defends him til the end and tries to save his ass online until it was too late, after which coach cho retires out of guilt (this is a team coach cho built from nothing, when they had no sponsor and he had to break his bank to feed the players, mind you), savior then runs away and goes into hiding while his peers post apology letters and retire on their own accord, only posts an apology letter when his fate is pretty much sealed in court, then starts streaming only months after the incident, opens up a fanclub where you can only post if you pay a signup fee knowing he still has fans that will pay for anything, then this shit. Not a word of remorse outside of that half-hearted apology letter he probably didn't even write. Then this shit.
On April 01 2012 10:08 rotinegg wrote: I agree, and I think the fans quieted down after a bit, but other factors were at play so BW ran its natural course on a slow but steady decline. Honestly I believe how the fans reacted has very little to do with BW's gradual fall, and certainly much less than just the general loss of interest in the scene that had been building for years. We only get riled up about this stuff when savior makes announcements like "IMA STREAM BW, GIMME MONEYZ" or "IMA TEACH BW, GIMME MONEYZ" not two years after the scandal happened, when it's part of our culture to repent and self-reflect when you've made a mistake. savior did none of that, and that's the beef I have with him. I would be way more accepting of players like hwasin or luxury teaching BW for $25/hr.
Say what?
Indeed. 1) who's culture? 2) if you think that's true in America, you're nuts 3) people don't typically "repent" in a meaningful way; they get caught and try to bullshit themselves back in favorable light
On April 01 2012 10:08 rotinegg wrote: I agree, and I think the fans quieted down after a bit, but other factors were at play so BW ran its natural course on a slow but steady decline. Honestly I believe how the fans reacted has very little to do with BW's gradual fall, and certainly much less than just the general loss of interest in the scene that had been building for years. We only get riled up about this stuff when savior makes announcements like "IMA STREAM BW, GIMME MONEYZ" or "IMA TEACH BW, GIMME MONEYZ" not two years after the scandal happened, when it's part of our culture to repent and self-reflect when you've made a mistake. savior did none of that, and that's the beef I have with him. I would be way more accepting of players like hwasin or luxury teaching BW for $25/hr.
Say what?
Indeed. 1) who's culture? 2) if you think that's true in America, you're nuts 3) people don't typically "repent" in a meaningful way; they get caught and try to bullshit themselves back in favorable light
1) Korea 2) Korea 3) Again, Korea != "people" (I think you forgot the 'American' prefix here)
We have lots of strong feelings about this topic in general, but I still hold that this particular chapter of Savior's endeavors isn't a big deal and there won't be a large market for these lessons at all, so even if it IS outrageous, it's still not significant.
On April 01 2012 10:08 rotinegg wrote: I agree, and I think the fans quieted down after a bit, but other factors were at play so BW ran its natural course on a slow but steady decline. Honestly I believe how the fans reacted has very little to do with BW's gradual fall, and certainly much less than just the general loss of interest in the scene that had been building for years. We only get riled up about this stuff when savior makes announcements like "IMA STREAM BW, GIMME MONEYZ" or "IMA TEACH BW, GIMME MONEYZ" not two years after the scandal happened, when it's part of our culture to repent and self-reflect when you've made a mistake. savior did none of that, and that's the beef I have with him. I would be way more accepting of players like hwasin or luxury teaching BW for $25/hr.
Say what?
Indeed. 1) who's culture? 2) if you think that's true in America, you're nuts 3) people don't typically "repent" in a meaningful way; they get caught and try to bullshit themselves back in favorable light
1) Korea 2) Korea 3) Again, Korea != "people" (I think you forgot the 'American' prefix here)
I honestly think attributing that sentiment to "Korean culture" is bullshit. It's just what most non-assholes do when they've made a mistake, and it's the "ideal behavior" in both most Eastern and Western cultures. And Savior is obviously an asshole.
That being said, I think the only hurt he's causing right now is "emotional hurt" by still existing in the BW scene. And really there's nothing to be done for it except to ignore him. People ranting online about it isn't going to change anything, and Savior's certainly not going to stop streaming or giving out lessons anytime soon, esp. given how fucking cheap he comes.
On March 31 2012 03:50 Glockateer wrote: So many people on this thread pretend to be perfect by pointing out that he should be damned forever. Sounds much like religions to me but that's another topic..
He messed up big time and is banned from pro gaming and now he still wishes to play and coach. That shows that his punishment is fitting to the crime since he can no longer compete in something he is clearly passionate about. Regardless of his actions, e-sports in general is starting to grow globally at this time.
You never have to forgive him but he shouldn't be sitting here crucified years later because he made such a horrible mistake. He can't correct it or be apart of what he hurt. I might even say he nearly helped BW as much as he hurt it with his era of dominance and changing the metagame into what is considered a post-savior era.
Tbh, I wouldn't be this mad if he started doing this AFTER his probation is finished. He's still on 2 year probation for his crimes and he pulls this bullshit? Unacceptable. Absolutely unacceptable.
No one with a sane mind can argue that what he is doing now somehow hurts the bw scene. If anything it only helps it.
Yo, mind if I quote your post and and re-post in Korean sites? Let's see what the koreans say about your statement.
Just because x group of people gets angry about something does not make their opinion more valid than y group of people.
Just like when X group of people believe the Earth is less than 6000 years old and get really angry when group Y group of people says that's it's a couple billion years old.
I'm going to have to agree with SNM on this. On the outside, the match-fixing scandal seemed to just be a phase; but in reality, that scandal caused a lot of problems for the BW scene. For the most part, the sponsorship issue is due to companies having a lack of faith in the scene, which was an after effect of the scandal. Yes Savior was a good player and yes he did have a legacy, but he threw away everything that helped to build him up just to make some extra money illegally. As much as I enjoyed savior as a player in 2007, I am biased in not liking the fact that he tries to make money off of BW.
Don't get me wrong, he can still try to make an honest living, but to be making it off something he was a part of ruining seems like a slap in the face for everyone who is deeply involved in the BW scene.
On April 01 2012 12:23 blahman3344 wrote: I'm going to have to agree with SNM on this. On the outside, the match-fixing scandal seemed to just be a phase; but in reality, that scandal caused a lot of problems for the BW scene. For the most part, the sponsorship issue is due to companies having a lack of faith in the scene, which was an after effect of the scandal. Yes Savior was a good player and yes he did have a legacy, but he threw away everything that helped to build him up just to make some extra money illegally. As much as I enjoyed savior as a player in 2007, I am biased in not liking the fact that he tries to make money off of BW.
Don't get me wrong, he can still try to make an honest living, but to be making it off something he was a part of ruining seems like a slap in the face for everyone who is deeply involved in the BW scene.
From the way everyone is talking its like he is actually making a living off of giving these lessons. Hes selling them dirt cheap to a very small group of people hes barely making any money. And that very small group of people is getting some great knowledge from a legendary gosu player.
On April 01 2012 12:23 blahman3344 wrote: I'm going to have to agree with SNM on this. On the outside, the match-fixing scandal seemed to just be a phase; but in reality, that scandal caused a lot of problems for the BW scene. For the most part, the sponsorship issue is due to companies having a lack of faith in the scene, which was an after effect of the scandal. Yes Savior was a good player and yes he did have a legacy, but he threw away everything that helped to build him up just to make some extra money illegally. As much as I enjoyed savior as a player in 2007, I am biased in not liking the fact that he tries to make money off of BW.
Don't get me wrong, he can still try to make an honest living, but to be making it off something he was a part of ruining seems like a slap in the face for everyone who is deeply involved in the BW scene.
From the way everyone is talking its like he is actually making a living off of giving these lessons. Hes selling them dirt cheap to a very small group of people hes barely making any money. And that very small group of people is getting some great knowledge from a legendary gosu player.
Do you know how much money he made winning the starleauges and blizzcons? Then there is his normal pay up until 2010, he probably still a loaded bank account.
On April 01 2012 12:23 blahman3344 wrote: I'm going to have to agree with SNM on this. On the outside, the match-fixing scandal seemed to just be a phase; but in reality, that scandal caused a lot of problems for the BW scene. For the most part, the sponsorship issue is due to companies having a lack of faith in the scene, which was an after effect of the scandal. Yes Savior was a good player and yes he did have a legacy, but he threw away everything that helped to build him up just to make some extra money illegally. As much as I enjoyed savior as a player in 2007, I am biased in not liking the fact that he tries to make money off of BW.
Don't get me wrong, he can still try to make an honest living, but to be making it off something he was a part of ruining seems like a slap in the face for everyone who is deeply involved in the BW scene.
From the way everyone is talking its like he is actually making a living off of giving these lessons. Hes selling them dirt cheap to a very small group of people hes barely making any money. And that very small group of people is getting some great knowledge from a legendary gosu player.
Do you know how much money he made winning the starleauges and blizzcons? Then there is his normal pay up until 2010, he probably still a loaded bank account.
On March 29 2012 23:06 GTR wrote: 30k won is quite a lot (compared to the other afreeca bjs) players like eagle/anytime do it for 10-15k won p/hr iirc. that being said, you are learning from probably the greatest strategic zerg ever to play bw.
welp at least it's cheaper than idra.
GTR i really love you man lol the idra line made me die : )
The most respectful thing he could have done was to move on. Milking out the industry and i supose his die hard fans. Then again one of the best BW zerg for 25 bugs seems like a cheap deal.
whats the point of getting online lessons? Lets say you drop a bill and get 4 hours worth of coaching. What do you gain in this time? At best, you get some pointers on build orders and timings. Perhaps some tips on how to engage or something.
Your gamesense isnt gonna improve in this short time. Your macro/micro doesnt improve from online coaching. If you actually want results, you need to get lessons for like a month at least. But even then, getting coaching in person by some average joe is probably more beneficial than some online bullshit by savior.
On April 01 2012 15:19 gameguard wrote: whats the point of getting online lessons? Lets say you drop a bill and get 4 hours worth of coaching. What do you gain in this time? At best, you get some pointers on build orders and timings. Perhaps some tips on how to engage or something.
Your gamesense isnt gonna improve in this short time. Your macro/micro doesnt improve from online coaching. If you actually want results, you need to get lessons for like a month at least. But even then, getting coaching in person by some average joe is probably more beneficial than some online bullshit by savior.
Its weird but people are gonna buy it..always amazes me how people are willing to fork out 100 bucks for idra's coaching. Never could understand those who buy it.
iirc, Artosis once interviewed ggmagic (was that his name?) who had also been involved in the match fixing scandal. He said that while what he did was really horrible, Artosis thought that he should be given a second chance anyway. I'm kind of in agreement with that.
BW pros literally sacrifice everything to be a progamer. To see such a sacrifice without having a reasonable financial compensation can be hard. They really did hurt esports, but they also contributed a lot. Their "crime" is really nothing compared to what you see people do every day (just look at TL's general forum for all the bad things happening in this world). Especially when you see that they aren't really nasty about it; they're just young people trying to get some extra cash in.
Like, don't get me wrong, I'm not defending their actions at all. Match fixing is appalling. But I think if murderers, rapists, thieves and traders are allowed to have a second chance, then there is NO reason we can't give a second chance to someone who's done match fixing. They already have a shit reputation, at least give them a chance to fix that.
Honestly if Savior started playing SC2 I would wet myself.. as a guy.
On April 01 2012 12:23 blahman3344 wrote: I'm going to have to agree with SNM on this. On the outside, the match-fixing scandal seemed to just be a phase; but in reality, that scandal caused a lot of problems for the BW scene. For the most part, the sponsorship issue is due to companies having a lack of faith in the scene, which was an after effect of the scandal. Yes Savior was a good player and yes he did have a legacy, but he threw away everything that helped to build him up just to make some extra money illegally. As much as I enjoyed savior as a player in 2007, I am biased in not liking the fact that he tries to make money off of BW.
Don't get me wrong, he can still try to make an honest living, but to be making it off something he was a part of ruining seems like a slap in the face for everyone who is deeply involved in the BW scene.
From the way everyone is talking its like he is actually making a living off of giving these lessons. Hes selling them dirt cheap to a very small group of people hes barely making any money. And that very small group of people is getting some great knowledge from a legendary gosu player.
Do you know how much money he made winning the starleauges and blizzcons? Then there is his normal pay up until 2010, he probably still a loaded bank account.
What does that have to do with anything?
I don't know man, your sentence wasn't very coherent to be honest.
Hes selling them dirt cheap to a very small group of people hes barely making any money.
Like i stated before he probably has a loaded bank account so he doesn't need to make any money at all off brood-war. But, i have no idea what his $ status at all.
On April 01 2012 10:08 rotinegg wrote: I agree, and I think the fans quieted down after a bit, but other factors were at play so BW ran its natural course on a slow but steady decline. Honestly I believe how the fans reacted has very little to do with BW's gradual fall, and certainly much less than just the general loss of interest in the scene that had been building for years. We only get riled up about this stuff when savior makes announcements like "IMA STREAM BW, GIMME MONEYZ" or "IMA TEACH BW, GIMME MONEYZ" not two years after the scandal happened, when it's part of our culture to repent and self-reflect when you've made a mistake. savior did none of that, and that's the beef I have with him. I would be way more accepting of players like hwasin or luxury teaching BW for $25/hr.
Say what?
broke down in tears in front of his head coach when the police contacted CJ Entus regarding the scandal, saying "BELIEVE ME COACH I DIDNT DO IT TT_TT", coach cho believes him and defends him til the end and tries to save his ass online until it was too late, after which coach cho retires out of guilt (this is a team coach cho built from nothing, when they had no sponsor and he had to break his bank to feed the players, mind you), savior then runs away and goes into hiding while his peers post apology letters and retire on their own accord, only posts an apology letter when his fate is pretty much sealed in court, then starts streaming only months after the incident, opens up a fanclub where you can only post if you pay a signup fee knowing he still has fans that will pay for anything, then this shit. Not a word of remorse outside of that half-hearted apology letter he probably didn't even write. Then this shit.
Fox news != news. Stop hiding behind rumors just because you need to hate something.
On April 01 2012 12:23 blahman3344 wrote: I'm going to have to agree with SNM on this. On the outside, the match-fixing scandal seemed to just be a phase; but in reality, that scandal caused a lot of problems for the BW scene. For the most part, the sponsorship issue is due to companies having a lack of faith in the scene, which was an after effect of the scandal. Yes Savior was a good player and yes he did have a legacy, but he threw away everything that helped to build him up just to make some extra money illegally. As much as I enjoyed savior as a player in 2007, I am biased in not liking the fact that he tries to make money off of BW.
Don't get me wrong, he can still try to make an honest living, but to be making it off something he was a part of ruining seems like a slap in the face for everyone who is deeply involved in the BW scene.
From the way everyone is talking its like he is actually making a living off of giving these lessons. Hes selling them dirt cheap to a very small group of people hes barely making any money. And that very small group of people is getting some great knowledge from a legendary gosu player.
Do you know how much money he made winning the starleauges and blizzcons? Then there is his normal pay up until 2010, he probably still a loaded bank account.
What does that have to do with anything?
I don't know man, your sentence wasn't very coherent to be honest.
Hes selling them dirt cheap to a very small group of people hes barely making any money.
Like i stated before he probably has a loaded bank account so he doesn't need to make any money at all off brood-war. But, i have no idea what his $ status at all.
lol then why make a statement like that? He doesn't need to make money off of Brood War because he probably has a lot of money but you have no idea if that's even true? Lol.
On April 01 2012 20:24 Incognoto wrote: Like, don't get me wrong, I'm not defending their actions at all. Match fixing is appalling. But I think if murderers, rapists, thieves and traders are allowed to have a second chance, then there is NO reason we can't give a second chance to someone who's done match fixing. They already have a shit reputation, at least give them a chance to fix that.
I wouldn't want murderers to become security guards with guns, I wouldn't want people who run ponzi schemes or do financial crimes to go back into the high end financial sector like banking or something, and I don't really want people who fixed matches in bw to try to extort fans by making them pay money to join a fanclub to get lessons (if I understood correctly, his fanclub is pay to get in).
Streaming bw is different and making money off of afreeca stream. He's playing the game and you can enjoy someone good at the game; you learn by watching. But trying to get people to join a fanclub for specialised lessons is just trying to milk some money.
On April 02 2012 02:52 Antisocialmunky wrote: I dunno didn't Idra charge like 50% more for SCII lessons and he was never all that great outside of beta and he left a bunch of games?
This isn't really the thread to discuss that but everyone must admit Idra has great mechanics and macro and that's good enough for lessons. The price is another story. I don't know how much Idra charges but Catz charges 80$/hour, and I doubt he's the only one charging this much, which is ridiculous considering he's not even that good.
Seriously, Savior's price is insanely low, whether you condone his behavior or not. That or SC2's prices are insanely high.
On April 01 2012 20:24 Incognoto wrote: Like, don't get me wrong, I'm not defending their actions at all. Match fixing is appalling. But I think if murderers, rapists, thieves and traders are allowed to have a second chance, then there is NO reason we can't give a second chance to someone who's done match fixing. They already have a shit reputation, at least give them a chance to fix that.
I wouldn't want murderers to become security guards with guns, I wouldn't want people who run ponzi schemes or do financial crimes to go back into the high end financial sector like banking or something, and I don't really want people who fixed matches in bw to try to extort fans by making them pay money to join a fanclub to get lessons (if I understood correctly, his fanclub is pay to get in).
Streaming bw is different and making money off of afreeca stream. He's playing the game and you can enjoy someone good at the game; you learn by watching. But trying to get people to join a fanclub for specialised lessons is just trying to milk some money.
Well I wouldn't know, it does seem like he's milking money. I guess if you do want to legitimize yourself again, having people pay to watch you might not be the best idea. Either way I'm not Savior or his lawyer. ^^....
I would have been really excited however if he started playing in the foreign scene.
On April 02 2012 02:52 Antisocialmunky wrote: I dunno didn't Idra charge like 50% more for SCII lessons and he was never all that great outside of beta and he left a bunch of games?
On April 02 2012 02:52 Antisocialmunky wrote: I dunno didn't Idra charge like 50% more for SCII lessons and he was never all that great outside of beta and he left a bunch of games?
Not 50% more, it's 1200% more, he charges 300$.
And people actually pay that much? wow... seems ridiculous..
On April 02 2012 02:52 Antisocialmunky wrote: I dunno didn't Idra charge like 50% more for SCII lessons and he was never all that great outside of beta and he left a bunch of games?
Not 50% more, it's 1200% more, he charges 300$.
And people actually pay that much? wow... seems ridiculous..
Idra doesn't like doing lessons, so he basically made it crazy expensive so that he either doesn't have to do them or gets paid a ridiculous amount for it iirc.
This should go on the blogs. savior does not even deserve a place to be on BW general. savior was the most respected player to be involved in match fixing, and he's the lowest of the lowest when dealing with the whole issue. I honestly don't even understand how people are trying to defend his position. It's like looking at people trying to defend kardashian's short marriage to kris humphries. giving second chance? only if you deserve it. savior was banned from kespa, but he still goes on to make money off of Afreeca/lessons. i love flash, but if he was involved in match-fixing, hell no i wouldn't even get a free starcraft lesson off of him if flash was acting like an ass like savior. i don't care how many years has passed since the incident, savior never came out clean and probably never will. bw looks already shaky with all the sc2 bullcrap that's been rumored to be taking place, and savior's definitely been one huge obstacle for bw scene and still is.
On April 01 2012 20:24 Incognoto wrote: Like, don't get me wrong, I'm not defending their actions at all. Match fixing is appalling. But I think if murderers, rapists, thieves and traders are allowed to have a second chance, then there is NO reason we can't give a second chance to someone who's done match fixing. They already have a shit reputation, at least give them a chance to fix that.
I wouldn't want murderers to become security guards with guns, I wouldn't want people who run ponzi schemes or do financial crimes to go back into the high end financial sector like banking or something, and I don't really want people who fixed matches in bw to try to extort fans by making them pay money to join a fanclub to get lessons (if I understood correctly, his fanclub is pay to get in).
Streaming bw is different and making money off of afreeca stream. He's playing the game and you can enjoy someone good at the game; you learn by watching. But trying to get people to join a fanclub for specialised lessons is just trying to milk some money.
it sounded to me like the fan club became a "paid" club because of people harassing him, though obviously makes money off it as well.
On April 01 2012 20:24 Incognoto wrote: iirc, Artosis once interviewed ggmagic (was that his name?) who had also been involved in the match fixing scandal. He said that while what he did was really horrible, Artosis thought that he should be given a second chance anyway. I'm kind of in agreement with that.
BW pros literally sacrifice everything to be a progamer. To see such a sacrifice without having a reasonable financial compensation can be hard. They really did hurt esports, but they also contributed a lot. Their "crime" is really nothing compared to what you see people do every day (just look at TL's general forum for all the bad things happening in this world). Especially when you see that they aren't really nasty about it; they're just young people trying to get some extra cash in.
See the problem that i have with this is that it's not "any" of those involved in the match fixing scandal, it's savior. He did sacrifice a lot to become a progamer, but he also GAINED A LOT. He's not an A teamer with little money and education who is going back to the university or has to do manual labor. He is savior, not DarkElf, UpMaGiC, Luxury or Hwasin. They will have a tougher time getting a job and imo. But savior already has a ton of money anyway, plus as someone posted in this thread he choose to live an expensive life :
And even after being banned and expelled he still made quite a lot.
Savior and Yarnc have together made almost 50 millon Won from Afreeca broadcasting alone, from a scene that he played a part in helping to destroy
And yeah, he is pretty effin "nasty" about it. He has no shame, he's milking it dry and the way he behaved...
Pay to join his fanclub, pay to follow him, pay to get lessons from him: basically only the nutty and hardcore fans who don't really care about anything else remain. you can't really get any more pathetic than that
when it's part of our culture to repent and self-reflect when you've made a mistake. savior did none of that, and that's the beef I have with him. I would be way more accepting of players like hwasin or luxury teaching BW for $25/hr
broke down in tears in front of his head coach when the police contacted CJ Entus regarding the scandal, saying "BELIEVE ME COACH I DIDNT DO IT TT_TT", coach cho believes him and defends him til the end and tries to save his ass online until it was too late, after which coach cho retires out of guilt (this is a team coach cho built from nothing, when they had no sponsor and he had to break his bank to feed the players, mind you), savior then runs away and goes into hiding while his peers post apology letters and retire on their own accord, only posts an apology letter when his fate is pretty much sealed in court, then starts streaming only months after the incident, opens up a fanclub where you can only post if you pay a signup fee knowing he still has fans that will pay for anything, then this shit. Not a word of remorse outside of that half-hearted apology letter he probably didn't even write. Then this shit.
On April 02 2012 11:21 RowdierBob wrote: He was banned from progaming, not playing BW.
I respect that some will never forgive Savior for what he did, but charging for BW lessons really doesn't have anything to do with his match-fixing.
The guy did the wrong thing, got punished and has done his time. He's entitled to move on with his life in whatever way he sees fit.
For people to compare him to high-end white collar crims and murderers is ridiculous.
He hasn't even done his time yet, he is still on probation. That's part of why it's still such a sore spot for so many fans. He past his prime way before his fall from grace anyway though, only the most rabid and zealous of fanboys stuck by him.
On April 02 2012 11:43 JooliaGillard wrote: I have always wondered if he threw that all-star series vs flash
Are you talking about their MBC Skins match? That was a long time ago. Also, it's wise not to second-guess every game you see that involved one of the players banned for match-fixing.
On April 01 2012 01:51 DwD wrote: Gogo Savior! it's time to forgive him people. He did fixed games, it's not like he murdered a bunch of babies.
He sort of murdered BW ;(
Not even close. People talked for it for what? 2 weeks? Nothing happened at all, no sponsors left, all tournaments and leagues still running. Don't be ridiculous.
I'm not so sure about that, I mean with the upcoming OSL not getting a sponsor, the past few starleagues getting sponsors only halfway through the tournament. Teams have died because of this ._. He and the other match-fixers are largely responsible for ruining BW.
OT: He does need to make some money so I do feel some sympathy for the devil, imagine how hard it'll be for him to land himself a job with a reputation and criminal record like that.
And you can attribute this to 100% being because of the match fixing?
Not 100%, but close to that figure. Bringing down a dozen or so talented players such as Luxury and a couple of teams with him sure seems significant.
Imo they didnt get dragged down by Savior, they chose on their own will to fix games. They dragged themselves down (we might have gone too far offtopic btw ^^)
your opinion is uninformed. savior introduced the players and the ppl paying for matchfixing. savior has been the middleman. savior dragged them down, there was nothing they could have done once introduced.
on topic: dont approve.
He forced them? I don't remember, were they threatened in anyway if they had declined to participate?
Once in the claws of the mafia, you dont simply say i dont wanna.
On March 30 2012 06:58 empty.bottle wrote: Can you change the title, everyone knows who Savior is... no need to keep talking about THAT issue.
Why? What he's doing is despicable, and the label succinctly captures the essence of the controversy. People who already know may not need to be reminded of what he did, but people who are new to BW might think HEY AN EX-PRO TUTORING 1-ON-1 FOR $25/HR? AWESOME!!!
As a thread title, Child molester Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services >>>> Dean Arthur Schwartzmiller offers babysitting services
On topic, I would pay 25 bucks to curse at MATCH-FIXING-savior for an hour and a half
are you honestly comparing match fixing to child molestation? jesus
I'm trying to understand how people can be so upset over this but I'm really having difficulties with it. Acting like he single handedly took down the BW scene is an emotional overreaction.
He did his time. His reputation has been destroyed forever. If people still like him and/or have forgiven him and want to pay for his lessons, so be it.
On April 01 2012 20:24 Incognoto wrote: Like, don't get me wrong, I'm not defending their actions at all. Match fixing is appalling. But I think if murderers, rapists, thieves and traders are allowed to have a second chance, then there is NO reason we can't give a second chance to someone who's done match fixing. They already have a shit reputation, at least give them a chance to fix that.
I wouldn't want murderers to become security guards with guns, I wouldn't want people who run ponzi schemes or do financial crimes to go back into the high end financial sector like banking or something, and I don't really want people who fixed matches in bw to try to extort fans by making them pay money to join a fanclub to get lessons (if I understood correctly, his fanclub is pay to get in).
Streaming bw is different and making money off of afreeca stream. He's playing the game and you can enjoy someone good at the game; you learn by watching. But trying to get people to join a fanclub for specialised lessons is just trying to milk some money.
He's not trying to make anyone join it though. If you don't want to join it, you're free to ignore it. If you want to support him, you can continue to. There's a huge difference between your examples and Savior's situation.
It's his life. He should be able to do anything he wants with it. He's been banned from tournaments for life. That doesn't mean he shouldn't still play the game. And if he wants to offer lessons to people, then that's his choice too. The organization shouldn't have any say in that.
hey here's a common misconception in this thread: savior didn't do jail time. He was sentenced to 1 year in prison but with 2 years 집행유예 (=parole? I think) so no he didn't go to jail, and he will most likely end up not going as long as he doesn't break another law. He was sentenced on October 22nd 2010, so his parole is still in effect today. He (officially) started streaming for money early June 2011, not 8 months after his final sentencing in court.
On April 01 2012 10:08 rotinegg wrote: I agree, and I think the fans quieted down after a bit, but other factors were at play so BW ran its natural course on a slow but steady decline. Honestly I believe how the fans reacted has very little to do with BW's gradual fall, and certainly much less than just the general loss of interest in the scene that had been building for years. We only get riled up about this stuff when savior makes announcements like "IMA STREAM BW, GIMME MONEYZ" or "IMA TEACH BW, GIMME MONEYZ" not two years after the scandal happened, when it's part of our culture to repent and self-reflect when you've made a mistake. savior did none of that, and that's the beef I have with him. I would be way more accepting of players like hwasin or luxury teaching BW for $25/hr.
Say what?
broke down in tears in front of his head coach when the police contacted CJ Entus regarding the scandal, saying "BELIEVE ME COACH I DIDNT DO IT TT_TT", coach cho believes him and defends him til the end and tries to save his ass online until it was too late, after which coach cho retires out of guilt (this is a team coach cho built from nothing, when they had no sponsor and he had to break his bank to feed the players, mind you), savior then runs away and goes into hiding while his peers post apology letters and retire on their own accord, only posts an apology letter when his fate is pretty much sealed in court, then starts streaming only months after the incident, opens up a fanclub where you can only post if you pay a signup fee knowing he still has fans that will pay for anything, then this shit. Not a word of remorse outside of that half-hearted apology letter he probably didn't even write. Then this shit.
Fox news != news. Stop hiding behind rumors just because you need to hate something.
I don't hide behind rumors, I bring them to the limelight and bust down your front door with them. Plus only a tiny bit of what I wrote is rumor (the bit where savior had a talk with Coach Cho and broke down in tears asking for his trust), and even then no effort was made by Coach Cho nor any of the teammates to dispute this widespread rumor. Here are some references for what I wrote:
I really agree with most people but the FACT (and i want to bold it) is that his style is still studied to exhaustion even today, so if they do study him as the most complex and game changing zerg why not just pay him ....
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OuDVE.jpg)
But this not mean he killed the work of years. is just bw become less interesting and less.
