EPTPower Rank Discussion Thread - Page 20
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Xpeijz
Finland400 Posts
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Darth Saros
Czech Republic245 Posts
1. Flash-he's Flash. 2. Pantaji-solid play in all matchups. TvT comeback against sKyHigh. 3. Bisu-weak opponents, but bringing results home. 4. Neo.G Soulkey-the only zerg that could. Lost to Best, but Best rapes zerg now in a Bisu-esque style. 5. Bogus-his play is really good, but his results are only mediocre. Always plays agains strong opponents. 6. Stats-not looking as solid as he did last month-expanding to terran's push line?(vs Bogus) 7. Effort-was doing all he could vs. Flash. 8. Last-I doubt his record will hold, cause of his TvZ(Only 1 game played thou). 9. Kal-mixed results but showing that he might be coming back to his former glory. 10. Firebathero-because...fuck yeah, firebathero! See Firebathero vs Zero on Ground Zero...if he played more(what the hell are Ace coaches doing these days) I'm sure he'd be higher. Close-Light/Snow. Not even close-  Constipation zerg/ Whiner. | ||
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
Speaking of which, i remember Leta doing well this season, why is he not getting fielded at all by CJ? o.O | ||
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Sethronu
United Kingdom450 Posts
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
On February 02 2012 23:20 Sethronu wrote: I don't understand how can anyone rank Bogus in the top 5 - I'm honestly not even convinced he belongs to PR at all T_T. His 'top' matchup of TvP, while good, isn't nearly as incredible as Bisu's PvZ - I'd say it's pretty comparable to Last's TvP or Light's vZ, and his other matchups are incredibly mediocre. That TvT loss vs Iris was painful to watch... :S I could see him somewhere down at the bottom, mostly because quite honestly there aren't many players that are doing awesome right now in general, but ranking him above Bisu or Stats and comparing him to Fantasy? No way... While i mostly agree with you (that Bogus, imho, needs to prove himself a little more to be able to climb to the top half of the PR), the bolded part seems to imply that Last's vP and Light's vZ are on the same level. Im positive that Light, along with Flash, Bisu, and an in-form Jaedong are among the top Zerg-slayers of all time, and definitely the top of this generation. There was a period in time (not a short one) where Light (to me) looked about as powerful as Flash was vZ. He looked absolutely indomitable. Last's vP, however, have a LOT left to prove, imho. | ||
mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
On February 02 2012 23:20 Sethronu wrote: I don't understand how can anyone rank Bogus in the top 5 - I'm honestly not even convinced he belongs to PR at all T_T. His 'top' matchup of TvP, while good, isn't nearly as incredible as Bisu's PvZ - I'd say it's pretty comparable to Last's TvP or Light's vZ, and his other matchups are incredibly mediocre. That TvT loss vs Iris was painful to watch... :S I could see him somewhere down at the bottom, mostly because quite honestly there aren't many players that are doing awesome right now in general, but ranking him above Bisu or Stats and comparing him to Fantasy? No way... Honestly, pretty much everyone sucks right now. The opposite case can be made for Bogus. Bogus has a 3-1 score against strong opponents, where as say, Bisu has a 5-1 which does not include any real threats - and when Bogus lost to Iris, he still looked a lot better than Bisu looked in his loss against Hon_sin. | ||
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
On February 03 2012 00:05 mustaju wrote: Honestly, pretty much everyone sucks right now. The opposite case can be made for Bogus. Bogus has a 3-1 score against strong opponents, where as say, Bisu has a 5-1 which does not include any real threats - and when Bogus lost to Iris, he still looked a lot better than Bisu looked in his loss against Hon_sin. I might be biased, but Bisu was rather unlucky to get the Spider Mine dragged onto the probes at such an unopportune time in his game vs hon_sin (other goons walked by just fine and didnt trigger the mine). Before that, he held hon_sin's push handily and was pretty ahead, until the mine that is. Can we say the same about Bogus vs Iris? | ||
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mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
On February 03 2012 01:00 ffreakk wrote: I might be biased, but Bisu was rather unlucky to get the Spider Mine dragged onto the probes at such an unopportune time in his game vs hon_sin (other goons walked by just fine and didnt trigger the mine). Before that, he held hon_sin's push handily and was pretty ahead, until the mine that is. Can we say the same about Bogus vs Iris? That mine killed 5 probes. Bogus was never ahead in the game, but he never made the weird engagements Bisu did in his game as well. | ||
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Kiett
United States7639 Posts
On February 02 2012 23:20 Sethronu wrote: I don't understand how can anyone rank Bogus in the top 5 - I'm honestly not even convinced he belongs to PR at all T_T. His 'top' matchup of TvP, while good, isn't nearly as incredible as Bisu's PvZ - I'd say it's pretty comparable to Last's TvP or Light's vZ, and his other matchups are incredibly mediocre. That TvT loss vs Iris was painful to watch... :S I could see him somewhere down at the bottom, mostly because quite honestly there aren't many players that are doing awesome right now in general, but ranking him above Bisu or Stats and comparing him to Fantasy? No way... ...what the hell are you talking about? Light has easily the 2nd best TvZ in the world. Last doesn't even have a 50% win rate in TvP. I don't understand this comparison at all. | ||
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
On February 03 2012 02:00 mustaju wrote: That mine killed 5 probes. Bogus was never ahead in the game, but he never made the weird engagements Bisu did in his game as well. No way that was 5 probes.. Off the top of my head, Bisu didn't pull probe to defend the T push to natural at all, so he had 2 bases worth of probes. After holding that push, Bisu's main is mined quite a bit, and he pulled a LOT of probes down to his natural. I distinctly remember there being pretty low saturation in Bisu's main. I'm not looking to justify a loss here. Bisu lost and that was it, but there were factors that i wish to consider for the PR is all. And I actually remember that his attempts at chipping at the push w Reaver was pretty good. Sure there was a bad mine-drag w the Goons, but there isn't much one can do when Terran sieges up at nice positions on Siege Hills. There's a reason why Stork said that map is terrible vT at the beginning of the season (i know SPL record says otherwise though). | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
His TvZ is also very solid. I don't understand why the word mediocre is being used. Maybe he doesn't "stand out" as a TvZer, but that's only because there are so many TvZers who are curb-stomping every Zerg in sight right now. With JD and Zero both giving poor results, the top 4 or 5 TvZers are basically free to walk over any Zerg they want. That *may* change during OSL since right now Terran are avoiding certain maps, but Zerg is also avoiding the map Jade and they will probably start avoiding Ground Zero giving the awful TvZ stats there (awful for Zerg, of course). The only match-up that is of concern for Bogus is of course TvT. I'm not going to try to defend him there. On February 02 2012 18:21 Xpeijz wrote: One thing that caught my eye regarding Jaedong is that not only he, but most other zergs have been doing pretty poorly this season. Last season zergs kept crushing protosses with hydrabuilds, this season Protoss seems to have regained some of their strength in that matchup. Look at n.Die_Soo, Killer, Hydra, Zero. Every one of them has been doing poorly this season. Soulkey is the only one who has a nice record out of the zerg players, and Effort is doing just alright I guess. And my question to you would be, what's your point? At the end of last season, Zerg had a huge metagame edge over Protoss. Right now the metagame has changed a bit, in part because of maps, in part because Zerg are having trouble with the current Protoss timings. So what are you trying to say? If Zerg is lacking power, then I'd expect the Power Rank to show that. There's no affirmative action here, no need for senseless quotas. When Zerg returns to power they will do well on the Power Rank again. Right now, if the lack of Zerg power is going to help anybody on the ranking, it should be Soulkey and Effort, as they are the only two zergs who are persevering, dare I say thriving, in the current conditions. Effort winning 67% of course is "just alright." Especially given the new format, which is forcing more meetings between higher caliber opponents, I think Effort deserves more credit than that (6 games against elite players...). And anyway, it's not like this is true imbalance. If you watch the games, the Zerg players are making definite mistakes when they lose. | ||
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
On February 03 2012 05:25 Mortality wrote: Effort winning 67% of course is "just alright." Especially given the new format, which is forcing more meetings between higher caliber opponents, I think Effort deserves more credit than that (6 games against elite players...). I agree with everything in this post except this. Effort has had particularly bad luck (or maybe CJ is just that good at sending him against the opposing team's best, given that he's the closest thing they have to an ace), but by and large we are not seeing more games between strong players than we did when ace matches still existed. At this point last season, Flash had played Best twice, Light twice, Calm, Soulkey, and Stork, just to pick out some of the better opponents. Jaedong had played Light twice, Hydra twice, Soulkey, Zero, Stats, and Stork. The only way you can even get Effort to 6 is if you count Jangbi as an elite PvZer, which I think is in question. | ||
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VGhost
United States3615 Posts
On February 03 2012 06:38 gngfn wrote: I agree with everything in this post except this. Effort has had particularly bad luck (or maybe CJ is just that good at sending him against the opposing team's best, given that he's the closest thing they have to an ace), but by and large we are not seeing more games between strong players than we did when ace matches still existed. At this point last season, Flash had played Best twice, Light twice, Calm, Soulkey, and Stork, just to pick out some of the better opponents. Jaedong had played Light twice, Hydra twice, Soulkey, Zero, Stats, and Stork. The only way you can even get Effort to 6 is if you count Jangbi as an elite PvZer, which I think is in question. I'm not sure how you're determining "at this point"? Trying to go by round won't work: fewer teams. Trying to go by date won't work: this year the league started later with a more relaxed schedule. The only thing comparable is to look at the actual games. Flash is at 9 games right now: victims have been: 2011-12: great, Jaehoon, Horang2, Light, Modesty, n.Die_soO, Jaedong, Dear, EffOrt (9-0) Of those, four are A-class or better (Horang2, Light, Jaedong, EffOrt); Jaehoon (clearly) and Dear (apparently) are also their teams' best players in the P-favored MU. great, Modesty, and soO are poor wins Compare 2010-11 through a) 9 games: n.Die_soO, BeSt, HiyA, RorO, Ruby, Stork, Modesty, Neo.G_Soulkey, Snow (8-1) Again we have four A-class+ (BeSt, Stork, Soulkey, Snow). RorO was WeMade's top Z; HiyA was OZ's only good T. soO, Modesty, and Ruby were bad (Ruby less so than the other two). b) 9 matches (in which Flash played): n.Die_soO, BeSt, HiyA, RorO, Ruby, Stork, Modesty, Neo.G_Soulkey, Snow, Light (9-1) Light makes 5 out of the 10 A+ players, but overall the records remain comparable. I'm sure 7 sets and no ace would have diluted the schedule, but by reducing the games it seems like overall the number of "good opponents" stays reasonably close. | ||
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Dakkas
2550 Posts
On February 03 2012 01:00 ffreakk wrote: I might be biased, but Bisu was rather unlucky to get the Spider Mine dragged onto the probes at such an unopportune time in his game vs hon_sin (other goons walked by just fine and didnt trigger the mine). Before that, he held hon_sin's push handily and was pretty ahead, until the mine that is. Can we say the same about Bogus vs Iris? No, you're being very biased and greatly underestimating Bogus. As much as I hate to admit it, Bisu played completely horribly that game. There is no doubt he underestimated hon_sin and lost, there was nothing good about his game at all | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
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mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
On February 03 2012 05:11 ffreakk wrote: No way that was 5 probes.. Off the top of my head, Bisu didn't pull probe to defend the T push to natural at all, so he had 2 bases worth of probes. After holding that push, Bisu's main is mined quite a bit, and he pulled a LOT of probes down to his natural. I distinctly remember there being pretty low saturation in Bisu's main. I'm not looking to justify a loss here. Bisu lost and that was it, but there were factors that i wish to consider for the PR is all. And I actually remember that his attempts at chipping at the push w Reaver was pretty good. Sure there was a bad mine-drag w the Goons, but there isn't much one can do when Terran sieges up at nice positions on Siege Hills. There's a reason why Stork said that map is terrible vT at the beginning of the season (i know SPL record says otherwise though). Just watched the VOD to confirm again in case I mixed it up. We see the Supply counter going from 55 to 48, with a dragoon dying as well. Because Dragoons take up 2 supply and Probes 1, I surmise no more than 5 probes were killed. EDIT: In addition Bisu was still 10 supply ahead. By no means was he behind after that mine. | ||
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Brobe
United States75 Posts
 Flash - UndefeatedFantasy - 5-0 in Jan.Last - 4-1 in Jan. (Only loss of the season)Neo.G_Soulkey - 4-1 in Jan.Bogus 4-1 in Jan.Bisu 5-1 in Jan. (awful opp.)Stats 2-2 in Jan. (still good overall record)EffOrt 2-1 in Jan. (good overall record+pretty good opp.)Kal 3-2 in Jan.BeSt 3-3 in Jan. (3 game losing streak+lost to Kal) | ||
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Sethronu
United Kingdom450 Posts
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
Fixed those two stats for you. While your January stats are correct, it is important to remember that it more of Round 2 PR, and that January 1st games were counted in the last PR (although we won't forget what the players showed in these games, the record itself has already been counted). | ||
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Xpeijz
Finland400 Posts
On February 03 2012 05:25 Mortality wrote: .... Ummm... I wasn't really suggesting that Jaedong should make the PR because of this. I don't think he should, although there aren't many good contenders for the later spots. I actually pretty much agree with all the points you made (I thought Effort was something like 5-4 and the games that I saw weren't very convincing, sorry about that). Just that there was talk about Jaedongs form in general and I pointed out that the shift from last seasons ZvP-style might be making his slump even deeper than it would "normally" (whatever that means in this context) be. So yes, I think this should count as a plus towards Soulkey and Effort. | ||
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