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Zero's ZvT during a slump is still top 5 on the planet no matter how you cut it. I would still consider it #2 in the world right now. SkyHigh's recent record doesn't do him justice: look at who he's played and how he's performed. Movie is a strong PvTer. Last has been on a tear, ripping through every Terran sent his way.
And I think Stats's opponent list is overstated. He's only played 3 games against Protoss killers (Effort, Bogus x2). Baby struggles (and fails) to stay even in TvP and Sea has been getting torn up by Protoss left and right. Soo is something of a joke right now -- his ability to demolish Protoss was highly dependent on metagame.
Overall, Stats's opponent list has only been marginally stronger. He's lost twice versus Fantasy's one loss. Fantasy's one loss was more ugly, but many of his wins have been brutal curb stomps. Stats performed well in the SPL playoffs last season... compared to Fantasy making the OSL finals and losing in an intense 3-2 final. Looking more long term, Fantasy went 53-30 (64%) in the past 12 months making the OSL finals back-to-back; Stats went 37-24 (61%) having a lower win percentage with vastly fewer games played and has yet to make it past the Ro16 in a Starleague in his entire career. Comparing ELO, Fantasy is higher vsT, vsZ, vsP and overall.
Fantasy could decide to suck tomorrow. He could lose, he could play like fail, get kicked off the PR and get relegated to the B-team. If you've been following PR threads over the past few years then you'll know that despite professing a like for Fantasy, I'm the first person to criticize him when he sucks.
Right at this moment all indicators point to Fantasy being the #2 player in the world. Why the clear #2 should be denied #2 on the PR is beyond me.
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On January 19 2012 06:12 doothegee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 05:47 Eun_Star wrote:
Only reason Stats is still above Fantasy is the fact that he played stronger players and managed to win them, unlike Fantasy (ZerO mini-slump, and TvZ on jade, SkyHigh's TvT definitely doesn't look as strong as it used to be) with only loss to Last.
It's too bad we didn't get to see Calm play. He had a great chance against Wooki on CR (not to mention that's the map where both players always get sent out...), and I'd love to see Calm back on PR. By that logic, Flash has played a bunch of scrubs and a slumping JD this season. Bogus has been absolutely dominant this season, especially in TvP, which makes him an easy #2 behind Flash.
He did play "scrubs" (I'd be more careful using this word if I were you) but he didn't lose. He dominated his opponents--I'm not just talking in terms of statistics. His plays are near flawless, and you really can't argue his spot as #1
Like I said, Bogus will eventually move up. I wouldn't be surprised if he takes #1/#2. Give him two or three more games, he'll take #2 easily. Bogus has been playing absolutely fantastic.
Fantasy & Stats is hard to decide, but I just valued Stats' wins more between them two.
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I'd consider moving Fantasy up to #2, Bogus to #3, and bump Stats to #4 based on results right now. Terran seems to catch no breaks, except when Flash and these two guys play. Bogus at the start of the season couldn't get the results, but that has changed.
This is all tentative though. Bogus still needs to prove his TvT. I won't hold it against him if he doesn't get a Terran in the next four games, but if he does he better show good results. Same with Zerg to some extent. Flash, Fantasy, and Bogus are all excellent at TvP but only Flash and Fantasy have proven themselves in TvT. I'd change my #3 for something in the bottom half if he shows another blunder in that matchup,
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As of right now I think I'd go:
Flash
Fantasy
Stats
Bogus
After that it becomes murky. I think Stats is demonstrating himself to be more well-rounded to Bogus at the moment, although maybe his PvT is a bit weaker than his PvZ and especially his PvP, which looks really scary right now.
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the zergs this round are not performing... zerg season shall arise again with jaedong claiming back his rightful throne at top 3  even if jaedong isnt playing well now thats just a minislump that he probably would get out from, and theres still his april curse to get away from(unless this slump of sorts is his curse)
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United States10325 Posts
Stat's lose shouldn't really hurt him considering he played against BOGUS. FlaSh still #1 imo. Until he loses, he's not going anywhere.
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Flash is seriously back into god mode, he is looking very solid. Stats might be the top shape protoss at the moment as they all seem a little shaky. Similarly to the zergs, I thought Hydra / effort / Jaedong would be pwning non stop but they have slowed down quite a bit. I am just wondering how team8 is playing so horribly considering their team looks rather decent.
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I wouldn't say that Protoss players all look shaky. Actually, Protoss is probably doing the best overall. The key difference is that Terran has 3 players who are owning it up on the leaders board, but Protoss actually has the most number of players with a positive record (10). Zerg actually has the second most (8), but 5 of those are only +1 and 4 of them have only played 1 game.
In particular, I don't think Stats looks shaky, however, even if his loss the other day was to Bogus, I felt that the strategic decision to expand between himself and Bogus was an enormous mistake, and I was already leaning towards Fantasy > Stats going into that match. Making an occasional strategic error does not make a player "shaky" though.
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On January 19 2012 07:00 Eun_Star wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 06:12 doothegee wrote:On January 19 2012 05:47 Eun_Star wrote:
Only reason Stats is still above Fantasy is the fact that he played stronger players and managed to win them, unlike Fantasy (ZerO mini-slump, and TvZ on jade, SkyHigh's TvT definitely doesn't look as strong as it used to be) with only loss to Last.
It's too bad we didn't get to see Calm play. He had a great chance against Wooki on CR (not to mention that's the map where both players always get sent out...), and I'd love to see Calm back on PR. By that logic, Flash has played a bunch of scrubs and a slumping JD this season. Bogus has been absolutely dominant this season, especially in TvP, which makes him an easy #2 behind Flash. He did play "scrubs" (I'd be more careful using this word if I were you) but he didn't lose. He dominated his opponents--I'm not just talking in terms of statistics. His plays are near flawless, and you really can't argue his spot as #1 Like I said, Bogus will eventually move up. I wouldn't be surprised if he takes #1/#2. Give him two or three more games, he'll take #2 easily. Bogus has been playing absolutely fantastic. Fantasy & Stats is hard to decide, but I just valued Stats' wins more between them two.
Hmm, you honestly think Bogus has the potenetial to usurp Flash at the moment?
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No one will take #1 until the beat Flash in a BoX -- JangBi did it once and he got his one time PR#1, but I would be surprised if it were to happen in 2012 at all.
That is... if we ever see an OSL. ;/
As an aside, I don't really understand all this Bogus hype right now. 5-4 on the season with some nice wins versus good toss players. Why so excited?
Wooki has had some nice games this month, minus the tragic cannon rush game. Heh.
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On January 21 2012 03:10 Gescom wrote:
No one will take #1 until the beat Flash in a BoX -- JangBi did it once and he got his one time PR#1, but I would be surprised if it were to happen in 2012 at all.
That is... if we ever see an OSL. ;/
As an aside, I don't really understand all this Bogus hype right now. 5-4 on the season with some nice wins versus good toss players. Why so excited?
Wooki has had some nice games this month, minus the tragic cannon rush game. Heh.
Because he played an amazing tvz vs soulkey with some of the sickest tvp seen from someone not called flash or fantasy?
You dont sound like someone who's watched his games
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Bogus has had the most difficult opponent list of anyone by a considerable margin. Just to give you an idea how difficult, he is currently ELO PEAKING at 2205 despite all the losses at the start of the season, which should give you a relatively unbiased gauge for the strength of his opponents. Also, his loss to Soulkey was one of the best games of the season so far; the only match-up in any doubt is his TvT.
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On January 21 2012 03:10 Gescom wrote:
As an aside, I don't really understand all this Bogus hype right now. 5-4 on the season with some nice wins versus good toss players. Why so excited?
He's played some very strong opponents and he still looks really strong even when he loses. Did you watch his game vs stats?
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On January 21 2012 03:10 Gescom wrote:
No one will take #1 until the beat Flash in a BoX -- JangBi did it once and he got his one time PR#1, but I would be surprised if it were to happen in 2012 at all.
That is... if we ever see an OSL. ;/
As an aside, I don't really understand all this Bogus hype right now. 5-4 on the season with some nice wins versus good toss players. Why so excited?
Wooki has had some nice games this month, minus the tragic cannon rush game. Heh.
i loled 10 times then rolled over and rofled.
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On January 21 2012 03:10 Gescom wrote:
No one will take #1 until the beat Flash in a BoX -- JangBi did it once and he got his one time PR#1, but I would be surprised if it were to happen in 2012 at all.
That is... if we ever see an OSL. ;/
As an aside, I don't really understand all this Bogus hype right now. 5-4 on the season with some nice wins versus good toss players. Why so excited?
Wooki has had some nice games this month, minus the tragic cannon rush game. Heh.
I haven't watched the games but he's actally 4-0 this month and 3-0 since last PR. You can't count his results too much from last month for this one :p
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It's simply a feeling you get from watching his games. He shows power, and that makes him good for this ranking. He's a very good example of proof that pure win/loss statistics aren't everything. His loss to Soulkey was about as good of a loss as possible - that is our opinion of Bogus rose even as he typed gg. His TvP is second only to God and the Crown Prince themselves.
His TvT though... uh, yeah. Still, besides this matchup, this guy is oozing with an aura of power that is only eclipsed by the other two top Terrans and probably Stats. At least several of us think so based on watching his games, your opinion may differ. Though I will say again that if he makes a big mistake in either TvZ or especially TvT he will lose a lot of his dominating image, as being a one match wonder rarely gets you into the top half of a ranking.
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Hmm. So after last nights games I'm thinking something like
1. Flash. duh
2. Fantasy. Looks strong in all MU's, his game against Stork was beautiful, etc.
3. Here's where it gets Fuzzy. Last should have a top 3 spot based on his overall performances this season, but then he lost to Action. I'm thinking Soulkey.
4. Last, derp
5. Effort, his recent games have been incredibly solid, and in his only loss he put up a terrific showing vs Flash. I honestly could see him going up to no.3/no.4
6. Stork. Doing good but not necessarily great. His game vs Fanta showed some holes.
7. Stats. He lost twice, but the losses were both because of a single weird mistake. He's still playing strong
8. Bisu. Meh. I'm honestly not sure with Bisu
9. JD. I'm sorry. That game vs Flying deserves some kind of punishement. Or maybe a reward? Because he won? His, Bisu's, and Stats positions are pretty interchangeable imo.
10. I'm honestly not sure here. Bogus was a sure fire bit for top 5 just a week ago, but now he's been floundering. Maybe Baby?
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United States10325 Posts
1. FlaSh. Don't even argue this one.
2. Drones. Celebration of the biggest fail in Starcraft history.
3. Stats. His game were dumb mistakes. He's still the strongest Protoss out there right now.
4-10. dont care. order ur list of stork, bisu, fantasy, jaedong, effort, last.
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Flash and Fantasy are a lock at this point, even if we are waiting until the end of the round instead of just the end of the month. Flash has played relatively weak competition, but has dominated in accordance with the skill level we expect from him. No surprises, no upsets, not even close. The only match-up where he hasn't fully "renewed" his lease as #1 is TvT, which he has only played once so far this season. But, considering we are talking about the greatest TvTer ever, I don't think there's any point discussing that.
Although the skill gap from Flash to Fantasy is pretty obvious, Fantasy's position on the rank is actually closer to Flash than one would think. Fantasy is now a hair over 65% in the past 12 months, and is the most accomplished tournament player during that time. Fantasy may decide to troll us and lose a bunch of games in February, but as of right now he is indisputably the #2 player in the world.
After Flash and Fantasy it's soooo hard to rate players. In my mind I sort of have tiers:
Tier 1:
Bisu - the best PvZ in the world bar none (and among the top 2 vZ players, along with Flash), and arguably the best PvP in the world right now (certainly ELO thinks so). I think concerns over his PvT are a bit overstated, but I definitely don't think he's ready to face Flash/Fantasy/Bogus right now.
Stats - Other than Flash and Fantasy, the most well-rounded strong player at the moment. He's also the other candidate for best PvP in the world right now, and his PvT is at least as good as Bisu's, but although his PvZ is very strong, it is clearly way behind Bisu's. Everybody's is.
Last - I am impressed by how unbelievably solid his TvP is as well as his TvT. But I still have questions about his TvZ. He needs to prove his strength in that match-up before I label him a big dog.
Tier 2:
Bogus - the proof that statistics aren't everything. His TvP is jaw dropping and his TvZ also looks very solid, but there are serious concerns over his TvT. Bogus and Last are starting to form a credible replacement to the Calm/Kal duo (circa 2009/2010) over in the STX house, but Bogus isn't quite ready to carry STX on his back, and I'm not sure Last is either.
Soulkey - displaying himself as probably the most well-rounded Zerg right now, although that may say as much about the lack of Zerg strength as it does about Soulkey who has shown some flaws that Flash/Fantasy/Tier 1 simply have not. Also, questions remain over Soulkey's power as a tournament player.
Effort - Perhaps a better resume than Soulkey, with his only losses this season to Flash, Stats and Bisu, not to mention that Effort has proven himself in tournaments. On the flip side, a lot of Effort's play has been dependent on clever strategies (e.g. the fake 4th base ploy vs Jangbi followed by the ling break) to make up for the fact that his mechanics are not yet up to the same level they used to be.
Tier 3:
Best
Stork
Baby
All 3 of these players have had a fairly ugly round so far, but a fairly solid season over all, and have played some games (this current round) that deserve respect. In particular for Stork, that game against Fantasy probably would have been won on any map less Terran favoring. The defense against Fantasy's vulture control was simply fantastic.
Jaedong is noticeably absent from my list. This is the first time I've written him off since... uhm, this is probably the first time I've ever written him off. Maybe that month like 3 years ago where he dropped in ODT to Backho I might have written him off, not sure, but yeah. Jaedong has been barely breaking even. His ZvT that used to be some dominant has seemed lackluster, his ZvZ has improved from where it was 6 months ago, but I'm feeling a bit reserved right now about saying things like "JvZ." And his ZvP... I kept arguing that people were not giving him credit, but that game against Flying was an ugly, ugly, ugly game of Starcraft. And I'm not just talking about RAMPUUUUUUUUUU either. There were so many times that Flying would lose sairs to scourge even though he had a sair fleet of around 8 or so built up and the scourge would often come only 2 at a time. Not to mention that zeal/archon is absolutely not the way to fight lurkers. Flying needed to mix in dragoons. Any competent PvZ player would have absolutely wrecked Jaedong that game.
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EPT
