The Power Rank still exists, but its removal from the right sidebar stifled discussion. While inveterate readers of the Power Rank may still frequent the now-hidden thread, more casual frequenters of TL may not notice it. Add to that amount the new people that find Brood War each season, and you've got a sizable number of Brood War-following members who won't view the Power Rank, other than when a new one appears in News every so often.
I think a discussion thread is needed. So, let's talk here. Who's hot? Who't not? Is your favorite player suddenly showing marked improvement in his micro/macro/ZvT/hairstyle? Have you noticed a new player that's stealthily creeping his way into the big leagues? Is a former star slumping? Was Shine a flash in the pan? Has Bisu lost in the offline qualifiers again?
I will write a new Power Rank on the first of each month. However, since we've only had one week of results thus far in this new season, the next Power Rank will not be written until January 1st of 2012. Your comments and discussion are integral to having a well-written Power Rank. After all, I am but one man, prone to making mistakes, showing bias, and overlooking details.
But together, we can create a comprehensive ranking. One free of overly-imposing bias. One that captures more than just the numbers. One that allows anybody to simply glance and then know who is on top of the world.
If you wish to navigate to the actual Power Rank (and ensuing comments), first go here: http://www.teamliquid.net/powerrank/ The most recent Ranking is listed at the top, with older ones being farther down the page. At the end of each Power Rank there is a link for the related comments.
And if you would like to make TL (for you) more Brood War-flavored, you can take a look at b0lt's BW userscript. With sidebar customization now available to all, it may be slightly out of date, but one of the options afforded to you is the placing of the Power Rank on the right sidebar.
This thread is much needed! Long live the one true Power Rank! None of this random users posting SC2 "Power Ranks" that are really just subjective lists of their own favorite SC2 players.
Flash and Jangbi still major hot. Both not afraid to offensive counter opponents' builds. Flash crisis management still very good, and micro still stellar. Jangbi pretty much counter everything light tried to do. Beat the OSL curse which is unique to say the least. Stork played a solid game, but losing multiple observers to hydras is not so hot.
Yeah, you can definitely tell the effects of the removal. Sept's ranking, although inspired, was pretty debatable, and yet there were barely a third of the comments on it than there would normally be
I'd love an option for PR on the right sidebar. The userscript worked before the TL layout changes, and I know someone posted a way to edit it, but it won't seem to work for me. Sigh.
Thanks for this thread. Even though I rarely ever participated I loved reading people's thoughts on who deserved to be where on the power ranks. In particular, because few people can watch all the games the power rank discussion thread helps to keep me abreast of how overlooked players who might be deserving of a spot in CNBC or even the lower half of the top 10 are doing.
I agree we should get our power rank on the right side again. Now that Teamliquid is so customizable us BW fans can have our power rank and the SC2 fans can have their stuff.
Random thoughts on Stork, ZerO, JangBi, and Jaedong:
I really liked the Stork vs ZerO match because it sets some interesting things to monitor this season. ZerO (and maybe Hydra) has seemed to dethrone Stork from TBLS, but Stork seemed so solid and smart in that game and ZerO didn't seem himself. Stork sent two initial Zealots early on, but split them, and it worked as planned. One was surrounded and picked off by Zerglings, the other got three drone kills while ZerO was distracted. Stork had DTs, a Zealot congo line to the third (with more drones dieing), a Zealot drop in the main to snipe the Hydra den. ZerO seemed slow and sluggish and unable to handle Stork's multitasking, often not immediately moving Hydras when he should. As NukeTheStars noted in his commentary, ZerO also couldn't multitask enough to take some pot shots at the FE gateway while the Zealots were out and about. Oh, Stork also had great storms. It seemed like ZerO had a strategy (high ground contain with Lurkers and Hydras) but Stork had both good strategy and tactics.
Obviously I am not saying Stork automatically returns to the top 10 and passes ZerO, but I'm gonna keep a close eye on both of them as the season moves forward.
And while I'm talking about the Khan game - Jangbi. Those shuttles... He's hot.
We'll find out in a couple hours if Jaedong is still hot though. Forget ZvZ for a second. Do you guys remember a very long period in 2010 or so where Jaedong didn't lose to any Protoss at all who was not named Stork or Bisu? We have a very different JD right now, so he'll have to prove himself in both vZ and vP. Thankfully we have no reason to question his ZvT prowess at the moment.
June 27th 2009 - July 24th 2010 he only lost to Bisu and Stork in ZvP. Extend it through January 12, 2011 and you only have 1 loss to Kal to add. Yes, for over a year and a half he only lost to TaekBang plus one loss to the Protoss of the Year at the time.
On November 29 2011 14:07 Release wrote: Flash and Jangbi still major hot. Both not afraid to offensive counter opponents' builds. Flash crisis management still very good, and micro still stellar. Jangbi pretty much counter everything light tried to do. Beat the OSL curse which is unique to say the least. Stork played a solid game, but losing multiple observers to hydras is not so hot.
Stork's observer control is infamous... So many games lost on the back of poor observer control. Honestly, Stork is my favorite player, but there are so many aspects of his game that he simply doesn't improve... ever.
On November 29 2011 14:37 jjhchsc2 wrote: lol too early to tell for anything. hope we can have a december PR.
hope to see jd as 1!!!
Let's just say Jaedong isn't off to a good start towards getting #1 PR... Especially now that Effort is back and Zero is a legitimate S-class player, Jaedong has a lot of competition for top Zerg, and he's been looking shaky for a very long time now.
This is a good initiative, though i feel PR should be returned to the right side bar, i feel like the decision to relegate it to Features has seriously hindered BW exposure and growth. This isn't an attack on the admins or anything as i know their still continue to care very much about BW.
I feel a December PR will either have to be "inspired" like your typical preseason College Football ranking, or it should just be skipped. Just looking at the last PR, we have Jangbi, Flash, Fantasy, Hydra, Zero, Stats, Jaedong, Killer, and Hoejja. Hoejja's not worth staying on unless he shows a brilliant game today. But there's nothing to suggest the other players should drop out. Heck, even the order seems more or less intact if you look at it.
On November 29 2011 14:07 Release wrote: Flash and Jangbi still major hot. Both not afraid to offensive counter opponents' builds. Flash crisis management still very good, and micro still stellar. Jangbi pretty much counter everything light tried to do. Beat the OSL curse which is unique to say the least. Stork played a solid game, but losing multiple observers to hydras is not so hot.
Stork's observer control is infamous... So many games lost on the back of poor observer control. Honestly, Stork is my favorite player, but there are so many aspects of his game that he simply doesn't improve... ever.
I disagree. I thought Zero was at a more disadvantage each time he tried to snipe observers that game. He lost a lot more in hydras getting stormed while trying to snipe. This despite the fact that his economy operating at about 50% of Stork's economy. Stork didn't mind waiting to push out. He had 6(?) gateways churning out dragoons while Zero barely mined his 3rd. A delay doesn't help Zero because he couldn't drone up. There weren't enough lurkers for a contain.
That said, it didn't matter anyway. Zero was dead in the water after those harass anyway. Sniping observers just made his demise a little latter but more surely.
On November 29 2011 14:53 baubo wrote: I feel a December PR will either have to be "inspired" like your typical preseason College Football ranking, or it should just be skipped. Just looking at the last PR, we have Jangbi, Flash, Fantasy, Hydra, Zero, Stats, Jaedong, Killer, and Hoejja. Hoejja's not worth staying on unless he shows a brilliant game today. But there's nothing to suggest the other players should drop out. Heck, even the order seems more or less intact if you look at it.
On November 29 2011 14:07 Release wrote: Flash and Jangbi still major hot. Both not afraid to offensive counter opponents' builds. Flash crisis management still very good, and micro still stellar. Jangbi pretty much counter everything light tried to do. Beat the OSL curse which is unique to say the least. Stork played a solid game, but losing multiple observers to hydras is not so hot.
Stork's observer control is infamous... So many games lost on the back of poor observer control. Honestly, Stork is my favorite player, but there are so many aspects of his game that he simply doesn't improve... ever.
I disagree. I thought Zero was at a more disadvantage each time he tried to snipe observers that game. He lost a lot more in hydras getting stormed while trying to snipe. This despite the fact that his economy operating at about 50% of Stork's economy. Stork didn't mind waiting to push out. He had 6(?) gateways churning out dragoons while Zero barely mined his 3rd. A delay doesn't help Zero because he couldn't drone up. There weren't enough lurkers for a contain.
That said, it didn't matter anyway. Zero was dead in the water after those harass anyway. Sniping observers just made his demise a little latter but more surely.
Hmmm... I wasn't really talking about the Stork vs. Zero game in particular, just Stork's observer micro and Zero's ascent in general.
My point was more that based on his past season's performance, Zero has clearly established himself as an S-class zerg player. Opinions about Stork's observer control seem mixed... There are games where he loses a lot of obs, but also games where he uses them effectively.
I too am very very sad that we didn't get to see Effort play this weekend.... I'm hoping for big things from him. On the other hand Baby looked really solid in his game vs. Soo.
Just given the huge amount of time between the last games and now, there's a possibility for great changes in people's gameplay. I haven't seen enough to talk much, but I think we should look heavily at recent results over past glory.
Hmm.. I might be biased but i think By.Sun is definitely worth keeping a lookout for.. All-killing Hwaseung Oz last season, and his opening game this season wasn't shabby at all.
That said, outside of the Jaedong vs BeSt game, none of the other games were a major surprise.. Those who should win, won, for the most part... I don't see any major changes with our usual Power Rank placings.. Outside of Hydra being there at all, but only cos i hate him. :3
Oh and Soulkey is good too, but we already know that hes good for a long time, so bah..
It's only been one week man and yes I miss it from the sidebar, but apparently we can change that in our customization, no?
Anyway, I think the next one should be written around the new year.
With that said, Jangbi still looks great. Effort showed he hasn't missed a beat. Stork looked solid. Flash did what we expect. Light almost made a game out of being that far behind. Won't comment on Free yet because I still think it's too early. Almost forgot Bisu, yeah he was solid too.
Based on the initial games, not much have changed in the BW scene. Flash still raping hardcore, Jangbi showing off his PvT flair, JD having flawless ZvT and sub-optimal everything else, etc.
On November 29 2011 18:56 Holgerius wrote: Based on the initial games, not much have changed in the BW scene. Flash still raping hardcore, Jangbi showing off his PvT flair, JD having flawless ZvT and sub-optimal everything else, etc.
I like how you conveniently skip over the fact that Bisu is still the best player that ever graced the BW scene.
On November 29 2011 18:56 Holgerius wrote: Based on the initial games, not much have changed in the BW scene. Flash still raping hardcore, Jangbi showing off his PvT flair, JD having flawless ZvT and sub-optimal everything else, etc.
I like how you conveniently skip over the fact that Bisu is still the best player that ever graced the BW scene.
Jaedong returns to #3 ELO. As I said in my earlier post, we have no reason to question that this man can ZvT better than anyone. But still, that game was hella impressive. As long as he can do that and win a majority of vP (even if barely) he has no reason to drop out of the top 10 for a long time.
Bisu, Flash, Jaedong. It seems so right. Hopefully Stork can win 2/3 of his games this season and join them.
On November 29 2011 16:41 doothegee wrote: 60% winrate in 2011, with a MSL finals and semi-finals appearance, BoX wins over Stork and Jaedong, 6-2 in playoffs with a win over Flash.
/fanboy
proleague starts in november. from november 'til august he won 58% of his games in a significant sample size (> 100 games played).
i'm a big fan of zero too but it's disingenuous to claim he's S-class or ever will be
there's not much to talk about re the next list, but i'm interested in seeing how the following players perform:
Clam: chugged along with a 51% win rate last season (my barometer for the "season" is 11.1.10 to proleague GF) but won 57% of his games the prior two seasons. he should at least get back to 55%.
Bogus: a good player but i suspect he overperformed last season. i'd be pleasantly surprised if he maintained a win-rate hovering around 60% again.
Kal: Protoss Player of the Year in '10, a major flop in '11. but lack of practice time in ACE may mean he never reaches A-class again.
By.Sun: been really good recently but a teeny tiny sample size.
JangBi: can he remain an elite player for an entire season?
free: despite a terrible season his career win-rate is amongst the best on the scene and he is a former dragon. woongjin is forced to count on him and it wouldnt be surprising for him to become one of the best protosses again.
killer: there's a chance he takes a hydra-like jump and cements himself as an elite zerg
ELO peaking at #1 PvP. All time PvP record stands at #3 PvT (5 points from Janbi's 2260) but his next PvT win will break all previous PvT ELO records.
# 1 vZ on the scene. Bar none. 6 points from ELO peaking at his previous PvZ ELO record. Next PvZ he'll break his previous PvZ ELO record and break oov's to gain third highest of all time.
#1 PvP and hot on the heals of # 3 vT ELO (Fantasy).
Flash is simply in a class of his own, the best player ever by a significant amount. 66 wins - 23 losses (74.16%) this year, playing with a serious wrist injury for the second half of it, and the highest peak ELO in all categories.
I'm just saying I think there's an awful lot of bias behind your post. You talk as though Bisu is the undisputed #1 of the scene, and still he hasn't been anywhere CLOSE to a Starleauge final for years, and wasn't sent out for the single most important game of the entire year.
Not enough info yet to order them properly, but these are probably our people:
Flash Jangbi Bisu Jaedong Zero Stork Fantasy Effort Baby Hydra
Goddamn will there ever be competition for the PR. It seems like the contention is as fierce as ever.
I don't envy flamewheel in January. Just think of Sea, Leta, FBH, Soulkey, Best, Stats, the CJ protosses... the next power rank is going to be a massacre of good players weeded out. All we know for sure is that the sun still rises every day and Flash is still #1
IMO, top 3 right now should be Flash, Jangbi and Bisu. I'd like to see Baby somewhere on the PR as well. He's been looking pretty scary so far this season. JD, Hydra should obviously be on there as well.
I'm fuckin stoked to see if ACE can take out an Effort/Leta/Hydra combo! :O If they do, it's kind of funny, since ACE doesn't have any "ACE" per say, but they are winning as a TEAM! I would vote for ACE to be ranked on PR, since no single player would be
Flash and Baby both have 100% win rates this season and at least twice as many wins as any other player--clearly rank 1 and 2 for next PR. Just kidding, too early to make predictions.
What? Fanta is obviously S-class. Anyone saying otherwise is talking garbage. BigFile semifinals, OSL gold, OSL silver. You don't fluke your way into that. The only thing about Fanta is that he's one of the streakiest players in all of BW history, alternating between playing so good that even Flash is probably jealous and then losing games that just make you want to smack your head against a wall. But you have to realize that a lot of those losses come for stupid, gimmicky reasons that Fanta averts when the chips are down. He is incredibly clutch.
Zero is a recent addition to S-class, but I don't see why anyone would deny him that. He's been floating around #5-6 ELO almost all year, pretty steadily rising in KeSPA, and turned out an MSL semis followed by MSL silver. In regular season games, 11-7 against TBLS in 2011 as well as 2-0 against Fantasy and 2-0 against Jangbi. If you're regularly beating S-class, then you are S-class.
I think people agree that Hydra's runs in SL's were kind of lucky. If he had ever run into Flash or most other solid terrans early in any of the SL's he went deep into, I think there is a consensus that he would have been crushed. Then there was when he and great seeded 3/4 the TBLS and sea into one group. lol.
I wouldn't consider him S-class, but his play this last year has definitely been high A level, especially vP and vZ.
What? Fanta is obviously S-class. Anyone saying otherwise is talking garbage. BigFile semifinals, OSL gold, OSL silver. You don't fluke your way into that. The only thing about Fanta is that he's one of the streakiest players in all of BW history, alternating between playing so good that even Flash is probably jealous and then losing games that just make you want to smack your head against a wall. But you have to realize that a lot of those losses come for stupid, gimmicky reasons that Fanta averts when the chips are down. He is incredibly clutch.
Has Fantasy ever had a good PL season? I think people write off Fantasy because he has never been consistently good all-around at any time in his career. He lacks the domination that make people think of S-Class players.
What? Fanta is obviously S-class. Anyone saying otherwise is talking garbage. BigFile semifinals, OSL gold, OSL silver. You don't fluke your way into that. The only thing about Fanta is that he's one of the streakiest players in all of BW history, alternating between playing so good that even Flash is probably jealous and then losing games that just make you want to smack your head against a wall. But you have to realize that a lot of those losses come for stupid, gimmicky reasons that Fanta averts when the chips are down. He is incredibly clutch.
Has Fantasy ever had a good PL season? I think people write off Fantasy because he has never been consistently good all-around at any time in his career. He lacks the domination that make people think of S-Class players.
What? Fanta is obviously S-class. Anyone saying otherwise is talking garbage. BigFile semifinals, OSL gold, OSL silver. You don't fluke your way into that. The only thing about Fanta is that he's one of the streakiest players in all of BW history, alternating between playing so good that even Flash is probably jealous and then losing games that just make you want to smack your head against a wall. But you have to realize that a lot of those losses come for stupid, gimmicky reasons that Fanta averts when the chips are down. He is incredibly clutch.
Has Fantasy ever had a good PL season? I think people write off Fantasy because he has never been consistently good all-around at any time in his career. He lacks the domination that make people think of S-Class players.
not as good as flash/bisu/jaedong, but really fucking good and consistent.
Isn't that kind of the point? That he's not at the top? And simply a level below the best? Hence why I used the word "lack of domination".
Bisu, Flash, Jaedong all have that sense of domination factor going for them. And while newer BW fans may feel Stork isn't really all that, there was a point when Stork was invincible everywhere but the finals. That's what I feel a S-Class player is. Someone who could just go in and wipe the floor with any other player. Effort sort of had this aura too at his peak. Fantasy? I don't feel that.
On November 30 2011 12:59 baubo wrote: What? Fanta is obviously S-class. Anyone saying otherwise is talking garbage. BigFile semifinals, OSL gold, OSL silver. You don't fluke your way into that. The only thing about Fanta is that he's one of the streakiest players in all of BW history, alternating between playing so good that even Flash is probably jealous and then losing games that just make you want to smack your head against a wall. But you have to realize that a lot of those losses come for stupid, gimmicky reasons that Fanta averts when the chips are down. He is incredibly clutch.
S-class isn't something you hand out like candy. Only 1-2 players a generation are truly S-class, and right now we're lucky that we had TBLS (although Stork has a lot to prove; I don't consider him S-class anymore, if ever).
I don't think Fantasy is S-class, and saying "obviously" doesn't add any veracity to your opinion. Since 11.1 '09 he has a 61.57% win-rate, 141 wins, 88 losses. Is Hydra S-class? He has a 60% win-rate with a gold medal in that time frame. "You don't fluke your way into that."
S-class players? Flash, Jaedong, Bisu. Flash is obvious so I'll save myself the time of looking up his stats. Bisu's won 68% of his games since 11.1 '09. Jaedong? 68.7%. The gap between that and 61.5% is ginormous; it's larger than the gap between Fantasy and free (54% in the same period of time). (Stork, by the way, is only at 58%.)
On November 30 2011 13:06 Ideas wrote: not as good as flash/bisu/jaedong
The fact that so few up-and-coming players can be projected to become A-class shows that being A-class is great honor, not an indictment. There's nothing wrong with classifying Fantasy, Stork, Hydra, ZerO or EffOrt as A-class, because that makes them one of the 15 best players in the world.
Elite talent in SC is very rare. S-class is the best of the best, across any generation. Possessing a 65% win-rate is a nearly impossible task... but as well it should be. Just winning half of your games is a tremendously difficult feat.
Let's try not to hype up our favorite players, placing them a level above where they should be just because we're emotionally attached to them.
What? Fanta is obviously S-class. Anyone saying otherwise is talking garbage. BigFile semifinals, OSL gold, OSL silver. You don't fluke your way into that. The only thing about Fanta is that he's one of the streakiest players in all of BW history, alternating between playing so good that even Flash is probably jealous and then losing games that just make you want to smack your head against a wall. But you have to realize that a lot of those losses come for stupid, gimmicky reasons that Fanta averts when the chips are down. He is incredibly clutch.
Has Fantasy ever had a good PL season? I think people write off Fantasy because he has never been consistently good all-around at any time in his career. He lacks the domination that make people think of S-Class players.
not as good as flash/bisu/jaedong, but really fucking good and consistent.
Isn't that kind of the point? That he's not at the top? And simply a level below the best? Hence why I used the word "lack of domination".
Bisu, Flash, Jaedong all have that sense of domination factor going for them. And while newer BW fans may feel Stork isn't really all that, there was a point when Stork was invincible everywhere but the finals. That's what I feel a S-Class player is. Someone who could just go in and wipe the floor with any other player. Effort sort of had this aura too at his peak. Fantasy? I don't feel that.
im not saying he's S-class, but people always say fantasy sucks at PL when really he's consistently one of the best players in PL.
What? Fanta is obviously S-class. Anyone saying otherwise is talking garbage. BigFile semifinals, OSL gold, OSL silver. You don't fluke your way into that. The only thing about Fanta is that he's one of the streakiest players in all of BW history, alternating between playing so good that even Flash is probably jealous and then losing games that just make you want to smack your head against a wall. But you have to realize that a lot of those losses come for stupid, gimmicky reasons that Fanta averts when the chips are down. He is incredibly clutch.
Has Fantasy ever had a good PL season? I think people write off Fantasy because he has never been consistently good all-around at any time in his career. He lacks the domination that make people think of S-Class players.
not as good as flash/bisu/jaedong, but really fucking good and consistent.
Isn't that kind of the point? That he's not at the top? And simply a level below the best? Hence why I used the word "lack of domination".
Bisu, Flash, Jaedong all have that sense of domination factor going for them. And while newer BW fans may feel Stork isn't really all that, there was a point when Stork was invincible everywhere but the finals. That's what I feel a S-Class player is. Someone who could just go in and wipe the floor with any other player. Effort sort of had this aura too at his peak. Fantasy? I don't feel that.
im not saying he's S-class, but people always say fantasy sucks at PL when really he's consistently one of the best players in PL.
He played pretty poorly for an OSL winner in 2010-2011 SPL. 20 wins and 19 losses is not that great.
Here's a list of players with better win percentages last PL having played around 30 games:
What? Fanta is obviously S-class. Anyone saying otherwise is talking garbage. BigFile semifinals, OSL gold, OSL silver. You don't fluke your way into that. The only thing about Fanta is that he's one of the streakiest players in all of BW history, alternating between playing so good that even Flash is probably jealous and then losing games that just make you want to smack your head against a wall. But you have to realize that a lot of those losses come for stupid, gimmicky reasons that Fanta averts when the chips are down. He is incredibly clutch.
Has Fantasy ever had a good PL season? I think people write off Fantasy because he has never been consistently good all-around at any time in his career. He lacks the domination that make people think of S-Class players.
not as good as flash/bisu/jaedong, but really fucking good and consistent.
Isn't that kind of the point? That he's not at the top? And simply a level below the best? Hence why I used the word "lack of domination".
Bisu, Flash, Jaedong all have that sense of domination factor going for them. And while newer BW fans may feel Stork isn't really all that, there was a point when Stork was invincible everywhere but the finals. That's what I feel a S-Class player is. Someone who could just go in and wipe the floor with any other player. Effort sort of had this aura too at his peak. Fantasy? I don't feel that.
im not saying he's S-class, but people always say fantasy sucks at PL when really he's consistently one of the best players in PL.
He played pretty poorly for an OSL winner in 2010-2011 SPL. 20 wins and 19 losses is not that great.
Here's a list of players with better win percentages last PL having played around 30 games:
On November 30 2011 12:59 baubo wrote: What? Fanta is obviously S-class. Anyone saying otherwise is talking garbage. BigFile semifinals, OSL gold, OSL silver. You don't fluke your way into that. The only thing about Fanta is that he's one of the streakiest players in all of BW history, alternating between playing so good that even Flash is probably jealous and then losing games that just make you want to smack your head against a wall. But you have to realize that a lot of those losses come for stupid, gimmicky reasons that Fanta averts when the chips are down. He is incredibly clutch.
S-class isn't something you hand out like candy. Only 1-2 players a generation are truly S-class, and right now we're lucky that we had TBLS (although Stork has a lot to prove; I don't consider him S-class anymore, if ever).
I don't know how by any criteria can you make this bolded statement.
Let's not make arbitrary win percentage cutoffs for S-class here. It's not about staying above a certain win percentage and it's not limited to just being the top 2. Sometimes the skill gap is very wide and sometimes it isn't.
It's healthy to talk about statistics but at the end of the day being S-class is all about who you beat, what the games look like, and the ability to secure the wins that matter most. When the tournament brackets get put up, there are the guys you wonder why they're there, the guys who you think are gonna drop out early but you at least know why they're there, the guys who might go halfway with luck but are going to fall in the end, and then there are the guys who are going to cut deep in and possibly win it all. That last category is the S-class.
Poor Stork. He may not have been in S-class form this year, but he most certainly is an S-class player. He's made 12 consecutive Ro16 appearances in the OSL, been in 5 SL finals, and has a winning recordagainst every othermember of TBLS. I think it's rather sad that people no longer appreciate his many years of amazing and consistent play and accomplishments, just because of this last year. I mean, there's a reason why there's a B in TBLS, and it's not just because it's catchy. Even the best sometimes fall into slumps. Doesn't mean he was never S-class.
Plus i like to look at Bisu's >80% win-rate last season and gloat <3... The number 60 doesn't do justice to Bisu's PL dominance last season.
Personally, i think S-class is something you "feel". It has been said before, but i agree with the sentiment that an S-class player is someone that instills fear in you when he sits on the opposite booth from you favourite player in an important match. (save some random cursed relationship (like Shine T_T)..)
That said, i also agree that only 3 players currently fits the word "S-class".. Some others are close (Fanta, Zero, among others), and some has been there for a long time (Stork, but he needs to show the same level of play he did beginning of last season to get back in), but i don't feel that they are there yet (im sure Stork will stomp some faces and get back in a Flash though).
I really really think that putting EffOrt beside Stork n Jangbi is unreasonable..
He just retired for a LONG time, had 2 games since coming back = 1 average ZvZ and a good ZvT vs Iris.. Sure he played well and won, but i don't think that puts him up there yet.. People stay Stork has a lot to prove? At least he established some absolute domination at the beginning of last season (up till that OSL Finals), and have been fighting on even ground with TLS throughout the course of the year... EffOrt, on the other hand...
I'd consider swap BeSt and Horang2. They both beat Jaedong in their most recent game in 2011, so you can't hype that too much and forget BeSt's rather large deficiencies in that matchup. Horang2 is quite competent in all three matchups, which is key for a high ranking.
Kal needs to drop, since the end of last season was quite poor for him (almost as bad as Free).
Calm? Maybe? Clam has been making in awful lot of appearances.
Effort sorta still needs to prove himself since he's played 2 games in over 400 days. I think Effort can be considered that high if he keeps it up through this month. Likewise JangBi could elevate to S-Class. We haven't seen him PvP in a while, and although he spanked Soo in the OSL, he couldn't handle Woongjin Zerg in the playoffs. I hope he can prove himself in all 3 matchups.
On November 30 2011 18:17 Kiett wrote: Poor Stork. He may not have been in S-class form this year, but he most certainly is an S-class player. He's made 12 consecutive Ro16 appearances in the OSL, been in 5 SL finals, and has a winning recordagainst every othermember of TBLS. I think it's rather sad that people no longer appreciate his many years of amazing and consistent play and accomplishments, just because of this last year. I mean, there's a reason why there's a B in TBLS, and it's not just because it's catchy. Even the best sometimes fall into slumps. Doesn't mean he was never S-class.
i feel like ever since his first big slump in 2008 (after losing to flash in the OSL) he has been very streaky. he totally sucked in the summer of 2008, then won the OSL in the fall, and then sucked again in most of 2009, then in 2010 he turned awesome again for a few months and made another OSL final (and 2 semifinals), and then he was pretty mediocre for the rest of 2011. during his slumps everyone seem to forget how awesome stork can be, and that he has always come back from them.
After the games on January 1st, every team will have played 7 games. Most of our top picks will probably have played 5-7 games, except perhaps CJ if they keep 3-0ing teams. I can't wait to see how so many players do in the January PR. =)
Right! 3 games played by all teams so far. I'm gonna put out a feeler for a ranking. Let's get some discussion with round 1 nearly half done! Actual rank is extremely iffy, of course. However, right now these are the 10 guys I'm really feeling.
1. Flash - No discussion required. 2. Hydra - Still the best ZvZer. Sure, Brave failed badly, but part of that was due to Hydra capitalizing on a weaker player's mistakes, not everyone can do this. 3. Jaedong - Greed against Best cost him the game, but his second ZvP where he sat on 3 bases for a while showed he learned his lesson (2 base toss PvZ is strong this season). Oh, and he's still the best ZvTer, just ask Mind what happens when 3 base Guardian and Ultra into Defiler comes your way. 4. Neo.G_Soulkey - ZerO out, SK in. Godlike Lurker-Defiler anti-mech? Check. Supreme contain against 2 base toss? Check. Still good at ZvZ? Yup. If anything he has a great argument against surpassing the Zergs ahead of him, we shall see. 5. Bisu - Beesuit. 6. JangBi - Jangbang. Shuttle-Reaver control wrecked Light. Amazing PvP comeback due to micro. Fail 2 Gate vs Effort, but time shall tell if he learned his lesson. 7. BeSt - Good PvZ? We'll see. Awesome late game PvT? As usual. A lot of people were favouring Light before gosu mine drags, storms, recall, and general awesomeness. 8. Stork - I still love the split Zealot distraction against ZerO. Good harassment in that game and also in his PvP vs Movie, showing this old dragon (and Neo King) can still multitask. Hero still had good ZvP last season, so Stork handling him pretty handily is not to be overlooked. 9. EffOrt - 3-0 in all 3 matchups. While this is the first PR in a few months and thus it is easier to get a high rank out of nowhere, 400 days off is a lot to make up for. He could easily go up with dominating play in the rest of the round, of course. Queen switch against Iris didn't look so hot, so I want to see his ZvT again. 10. Fantasy - Really, this guy could be anywhere on the list, don't worry about the number. M&M looking good just like last year. Like Effort, he will prove himself as the round continues.
Keeping an eye (or 2) on: FBH, by.Sun, Light, Leta (1 game? CJ doesn't even need a Terran this good??), shy, free, RorO, ZerO
Those guys aren't CBNC in my book yet, but since there's still plenty of games to go, I want to see how they do and they certainly have a shot at making the list.
Discuss! Ignore my post and make your own insights, or respond, or whatever. But let's see some PR talk. =)
best above JD in all honesty, he's been clutch, i think baby should take fantasy's place since fantasy hasnt even been played that much, you cant be a threat if you're not there. I think shy deserves a mention, hes the critical missing link that stars' 4 man lineup really needed, a rookie stepping up should always be applauded.
I know this isn't an ELO discussion thread, but I want to bring it up somewhere.
ELO. EffOrt. What the heck is wrong with this rating system?
Effort wins 3 games after 400 days off. He is now #8 ELO.
Neo.G_Soulkey has also won his first 3 games this season. On top of ending last season on a 3 game win streak. His last 35 are an incredible 26-9 since April (74.29%). Soulkey is 10th ELO.
And before Effort's 3 game winstreak, way back in 2010? He had lost 4 in a row. His last 35 (including the recent 3-0) is 21-14 (60%).
How is this even in the realm of possibility? ELO points don't degrade over time? But that can't be true, because didn't Effort drop in ELO over time during his retirement? I know ELO is nothing more than algorithms, but it just doesn't seem right that 3 games in 400 days can elevate you so high, and yet more recent and better results are lesser (SK).
Not to hate on Effort as has a good chance of cracking the Top 10 PR and certainly won't make Top 10 of Kespa for a long time, but ELO now confounds me.
On December 15 2011 05:14 Crisium wrote: I know this isn't an ELO discussion thread, but I want to bring it up somewhere.
ELO. EffOrt. What the heck is wrong with this rating system?
Effort wins 3 games after 400 days off. He is now #8 ELO.
Neo.G_Soulkey has also won his first 3 games this season. On top of ending last season on a 3 game win streak. His last 35 are an incredible 26-9 since April (74.29%). Soulkey is 10th ELO.
And before Effort's 3 game winstreak, way back in 2010? He had lost 4 in a row. His last 35 (including the recent 3-0) is 21-14 (60%).
How is this even in the realm of possibility? ELO points don't degrade over time? But that can't be true, because didn't Effort drop in ELO over time during his retirement? I know ELO is nothing more than algorithms, but it just doesn't seem right that 3 games in 400 days can elevate you so high, and yet more recent and better results are lesser (SK).
Not to hate on Effort as has a good chance of cracking the Top 10 PR and certainly won't make Top 10 of Kespa for a long time, but ELO now confounds me.
On December 15 2011 05:14 Crisium wrote: I know this isn't an ELO discussion thread, but I want to bring it up somewhere.
ELO. EffOrt. What the heck is wrong with this rating system?
Effort wins 3 games after 400 days off. He is now #8 ELO.
Neo.G_Soulkey has also won his first 3 games this season. On top of ending last season on a 3 game win streak. His last 35 are an incredible 26-9 since April (74.29%). Soulkey is 10th ELO.
And before Effort's 3 game winstreak, way back in 2010? He had lost 4 in a row. His last 35 (including the recent 3-0) is 21-14 (60%).
How is this even in the realm of possibility? ELO points don't degrade over time? But that can't be true, because didn't Effort drop in ELO over time during his retirement? I know ELO is nothing more than algorithms, but it just doesn't seem right that 3 games in 400 days can elevate you so high, and yet more recent and better results are lesser (SK).
Not to hate on Effort as has a good chance of cracking the Top 10 PR and certainly won't make Top 10 of Kespa for a long time, but ELO now confounds me.
He was ~5 ELO when he "retired", how much did his ELO decrease over the 400 days? Or was he simply made "invisible" on the ELO page due to the retirement?
Flamewheel, I think you should start fresh with the next power rank. I know you usually take into account a player's previous position when assessing their position in the new one, but it's been SO LONG that I think a reboot is appropriate.
By the way, thank you for continuing to do the BW power rank, even after its unceremonious removal from the front page! I look forward to it every month (or whenever), and i'm sure there are lots of others that do too.
On December 15 2011 05:14 Crisium wrote: I know this isn't an ELO discussion thread, but I want to bring it up somewhere.
ELO. EffOrt. What the heck is wrong with this rating system?
Effort wins 3 games after 400 days off. He is now #8 ELO.
Neo.G_Soulkey has also won his first 3 games this season. On top of ending last season on a 3 game win streak. His last 35 are an incredible 26-9 since April (74.29%). Soulkey is 10th ELO.
And before Effort's 3 game winstreak, way back in 2010? He had lost 4 in a row. His last 35 (including the recent 3-0) is 21-14 (60%).
How is this even in the realm of possibility? ELO points don't degrade over time? But that can't be true, because didn't Effort drop in ELO over time during his retirement? I know ELO is nothing more than algorithms, but it just doesn't seem right that 3 games in 400 days can elevate you so high, and yet more recent and better results are lesser (SK).
Not to hate on Effort as has a good chance of cracking the Top 10 PR and certainly won't make Top 10 of Kespa for a long time, but ELO now confounds me.
He was ~5 ELO when he "retired", how much did his ELO decrease over the 400 days? Or was he simply made "invisible" on the ELO page due to the retirement?
You know, I think he must have been made invisible. He was 2192 ELO when he retired in August 2010, and he was 2192 ELO in January 2011. So he is still technically riding off his mid-2010 success. Still bugs me, but I guess that's the nature of ELO since it doesn't take time into consideration like Kespa.
On December 15 2011 05:14 Crisium wrote: I know this isn't an ELO discussion thread, but I want to bring it up somewhere.
ELO. EffOrt. What the heck is wrong with this rating system?
Effort wins 3 games after 400 days off. He is now #8 ELO.
Neo.G_Soulkey has also won his first 3 games this season. On top of ending last season on a 3 game win streak. His last 35 are an incredible 26-9 since April (74.29%). Soulkey is 10th ELO.
And before Effort's 3 game winstreak, way back in 2010? He had lost 4 in a row. His last 35 (including the recent 3-0) is 21-14 (60%).
How is this even in the realm of possibility? ELO points don't degrade over time? But that can't be true, because didn't Effort drop in ELO over time during his retirement? I know ELO is nothing more than algorithms, but it just doesn't seem right that 3 games in 400 days can elevate you so high, and yet more recent and better results are lesser (SK).
Not to hate on Effort as has a good chance of cracking the Top 10 PR and certainly won't make Top 10 of Kespa for a long time, but ELO now confounds me.
He was ~5 ELO when he "retired", how much did his ELO decrease over the 400 days? Or was he simply made "invisible" on the ELO page due to the retirement?
You know, I think he must have been made invisible. He was 2192 ELO when he retired in August 2010, and he was 2192 ELO in January 2011. So he is still technically riding off his mid-2010 success. Still bugs me, but I guess that's the nature of ELO since it doesn't take time into consideration like Kespa.
Ah thanks for clearing that up, no wonder he's way up there in the ELO charts. But then again, with the 3 games that he has played he seems to be his former self so all is right with the world.
On December 15 2011 07:03 amazingxkcd wrote: Guys, you should all keep an eye on Free. He's gonna hit top 10 again, just you watch and your fpls watch!
I hope so, I always liked him but always seemed to not turn it up one more notch. Hopefully his most recent victory over SKT Bisu will give him the confidence...
Me personally I am looking at Soulkey and Baby. They have always been good, but this season I have a feeling they are going to explode into awesomeness
yeah just glancing at it in my right panel (it's not gone! i'll always keep it♥) i was wondering if we would get new ones, great to read you will do 'em. Sorry i can't contribute but fanboy cheers heh, gonna be hard though with the format and the top players potentially not meeting each other as often as in the past!
I wish OSL would start soon. It's too tough to judge right now with so few games being played. Only one game in the last few months for Fantasy and Leta...? X_X
No ace matches is a bit of a piss-off, too.
The fact that Hyuk may never play proleague again is a frightening thought to me.
On December 15 2011 10:49 Gescom wrote: I wish OSL would start soon. It's too tough to judge right now with so few games being played. Only one game in the last few months for Fantasy and Leta...? X_X
No ace matches is a bit of a piss-off, too.
The fact that Hyuk may never play proleague again is a frightening thought to me.
When does OSL start? Does it run concurrent with Proleague?
One individual league, no ace matches and barely any games played. I just can't see the point of a Power Rank any more. Top spots will always go to those with OSL success.
Will the power rank still be relevant in the contracted proleague and post-MSL era? We still have no word on the OSL and with proleague alone 5-6 games a month aren't enough to have any sort of meaningful debate. The lack of ACE match and winners means the best players will just rack up most of their kills against run of the mill players rather than playing each other. Debating over whether Flash or Jaedong dominated scrubs more thoroughly hardly sounds interesting.
On December 14 2011 18:41 Crisium wrote: Right! 3 games played by all teams so far. I'm gonna put out a feeler for a ranking. Let's get some discussion with round 1 nearly half done! Actual rank is extremely iffy, of course. However, right now these are the 10 guys I'm really feeling.
1. Flash - No discussion required. 2. Hydra - Still the best ZvZer. Sure, Brave failed badly, but part of that was due to Hydra capitalizing on a weaker player's mistakes, not everyone can do this. 3. Jaedong - Greed against Best cost him the game, but his second ZvP where he sat on 3 bases for a while showed he learned his lesson (2 base toss PvZ is strong this season). Oh, and he's still the best ZvTer, just ask Mind what happens when 3 base Guardian and Ultra into Defiler comes your way. 4. Neo.G_Soulkey - ZerO out, SK in. Godlike Lurker-Defiler anti-mech? Check. Supreme contain against 2 base toss? Check. Still good at ZvZ? Yup. If anything he has a great argument against surpassing the Zergs ahead of him, we shall see. 5. Bisu - Beesuit. 6. JangBi - Jangbang. Shuttle-Reaver control wrecked Light. Amazing PvP comeback due to micro. Fail 2 Gate vs Effort, but time shall tell if he learned his lesson. 7. BeSt - Good PvZ? We'll see. Awesome late game PvT? As usual. A lot of people were favouring Light before gosu mine drags, storms, recall, and general awesomeness. 8. Stork - I still love the split Zealot distraction against ZerO. Good harassment in that game and also in his PvP vs Movie, showing this old dragon (and Neo King) can still multitask. Hero still had good ZvP last season, so Stork handling him pretty handily is not to be overlooked. 9. EffOrt - 3-0 in all 3 matchups. While this is the first PR in a few months and thus it is easier to get a high rank out of nowhere, 400 days off is a lot to make up for. He could easily go up with dominating play in the rest of the round, of course. Queen switch against Iris didn't look so hot, so I want to see his ZvT again. 10. Fantasy - Really, this guy could be anywhere on the list, don't worry about the number. M&M looking good just like last year. Like Effort, he will prove himself as the round continues.
Keeping an eye (or 2) on: FBH, by.Sun, Light, Leta (1 game? CJ doesn't even need a Terran this good??), shy, free, RorO, ZerO
Those guys aren't CBNC in my book yet, but since there's still plenty of games to go, I want to see how they do and they certainly have a shot at making the list.
Discuss! Ignore my post and make your own insights, or respond, or whatever. But let's see some PR talk. =)
I would sort of put Bisu up by 1 and drop SK down.
Flash Hydra JD Bisu Jangbi Effort SoulKey Best Fantasy Stork.
Though Bisu lost to Free just like today so I'm not sure about that. I honestly don't think SK should be that high because he hasn't really done anything. This month would be a bit interesting. I think Bisu has time to put himself up a bit higher. As well as Fantasy and Stork considering how well they are doing. This month will be very tough. Good luck with that really. I'm curious on the end result.
On December 15 2011 10:22 Friedrich Nietzsche wrote: There should be a spoilered section in the OP containing the actual updated Power Rank so that we dont have to go to another link
An excellent suggestion. I will make sure to do so.
Main point I want to bring up is about SK: he has never won a ZvZ series in his life, not even in prelims. I found this interesting because statistically SK's ZvZ looks really strong if you are just looking at standard league play.
I'm not saying that SK should be barred from higher places on the PR, but I think he has more to prove than most of the other guys near the top. On the subject of Zero, I think he is a better player than SK but he isn't producing results right now, so of course he will have to drop. At this point he can still earn a low PR spot if he produces some stellar results between now and the next ranking, but he needs some really big wins to do it.
I hope individuals start soon. I am very disappointed that it looks like we won't have one last MSL.
Beating Killer from a slight BO disadvantage should help SoulKey's ZvZ portfolio.
I would also like to bring people's attention to sHy. He's a 3-1 taking down established Proleague players (Sea, Shuttle, and Soo) and a consistent number of his games involve some sort of flashy micro or strategy. Seriously, taking down Sea with hallucinated arbiters and raw multitask is something special.
Before the season started I was a little worried about Flash's shape considering he had a decent amount of time with no BW playing at all, but now I can confidently say that anyone who tries to argue that Flash shouldn't be #1 on the PR is insane. His two TvPs have been absolutely majestic.
Both Stork and SK are looking sick as well, with their perfect 4-0 records and really impressive game-play. It's still quite hard to get a good overview of what the entire Top 10 should look like though.
There's so many players that have a great argument for the top 10. At least we have 3 more games to go for each team. Hopefully all the big dogs get to play - having Fantasy and Leta already sitting out 2 games is no fun.
DarkMatter, don't forget JangBi! Both JangBi and Jaedong have to prove themselves versus Z. We haven't seen JD do it yet this season, and JangBi has to show his crappy 2 Gate was a fluke.
Considering the last OSL, Jangbi and Fantasy should be locks. Flash is a lock for #1, or else he must have just lost to Bisu, Jaedong, or Stork Even being a Bisu-fanboy, to sort out TBLS, you'd honestly have to do it like this:
Flash JD Stork Bisu
What I propose, however, is replacing one Khan toss with the other. Jangbang just won an OSL, guys.
Flash JD Jangbi Bisu Stork
That looks good to me Don't forget Fantasy, coming off his OSL defeat Flash JD Jangbi Bisu Stork
Where Bisu has just lost 2 PvPs, you can sort of justify dropping him a bit. Simply replace him with Fantasy, and the T1 fanboys won't be as dismayed... like so:
You can even be like "well, stork just beat bisu, wait until next month and we'll see ^^" Everybody likes easy excuse!
Now, you have to do the A class players who didn't just play in a finals Hydra, Soulkey, Zero, Sea, Baby, Stats, Bogus, Killer, or someone on a tear like Shy This is where you can have a little fun. Do you like logical macro players like BeSt, or someone with flowing mid-late game micro like Sea? It's up to you. Hydra just got to the semifinals, and has been in great form. You have to be looking to place him inside somewhere. Perhaps at #5, right above Stork, but under Fantasy. I would hesitate to put anyone else in there
I'm going to cut this a little short, but as an added tidbit, I am disappointed we are not on the right sidebar
wait ok so i see that the power rank has changed, but I can't click anywhere that takes me to the description. I can go to the main power rank thread, but that one hasn't been updated since september??
On December 19 2011 06:25 Crisium wrote: Stork #2 would please me, heh.
There's so many players that have a great argument for the top 10. At least we have 3 more games to go for each team. Hopefully all the big dogs get to play - having Fantasy and Leta already sitting out 2 games is no fun.
DarkMatter, don't forget JangBi! Both JangBi and Jaedong have to prove themselves versus Z. We haven't seen JD do it yet this season, and JangBi has to show his crappy 2 Gate was a fluke.
Mm, Jaedong's vZ may not be very good, and he did drop a protoss game against Best, but overall in both matchups I'm confident he's still grossly above the average in both matchups, and currently, his ZvT is no longer just the best ZvT. I would confidently say he's the best Terran killer race-regardless, either equivalent or better than Flash. (Well to be sure, we'd have to know if Flash can beat Flash lol). Just that alone should put him into top 5 and arguably top 3 easily.
I look at it this way. Jangbi is still the reigning OSL champion and has a 3-1 PL record. His wins have been of the no-contest variety. His only loss came against effort where he 2-gated but got screwed in cross positions(semi BO loss). Unless you think the OSL is a worthless tournament, at this very moment he should be #1, even if it's not by much. Flash is PL god ands #2 right now. Although if you are predicting future success rather than going by result, I can see him #1. Fantasy has looked very sharp in limited action. So as the reigning silver surfer he should be #3. And then you go by PL performance. Soulkey and Stork IMO round out the top 5 at this moment. Both players have looked basically flawless so far.
6-10 is murky due to limited number of games. Effort, Hydra, Best, Jaedong, Leta, free and probably some others all candidate. But top 5 IMO should be set at this moment. A lot can still change in the next two weeks though.
I don't believe you can justify keeping Bisu out of the PR with his vs Z Stork you could do without easier, but I would put him around 4-6, depending on where you place Bisu.
Jangbi had his time at the top for winning the OSL. I'm into being conservative towards change, but lets face it, Flash is a better gamer than Jangbi. Who would you bet on if they played? If you want to speak with your heart, that's fine, but try to be logical here.
If I was making this today, after the SKT vs Ace matches, I'd put it like this:
Flash Jangbi Bisu Stats Fantasy Jaedong Soulkey Hydra Stork
-Zero drops out, losing 4 out of his last 5
I don't have the task of getting this perfect, however, so I don't believe I'll fiddle around with this too much.
straight stats: stats won 9 out of his last 10 Bisu won 15 out of his last 18 Soulkey won 8 out of his last 10 Jaedong won 7 out of his last 10 Jangbi won 7 out of his last 10, and a recent gold Flash won 7 out of his last 10 Fantasy won 7 out of his last 10, and a recent silver Stork won 6 out of his last 10, has won 4 in a row, and beat S class player Bisu in his last match Hydra falls, having won 5 out of his last 10
I'm not going to talk about the little things, though. I won't go on and on about Flash being the best player in the game, or Jangbi's OSL win (Which Kim Taek Yong has had elude him). Should Stats be #3? Probably. He's 9/10, and just won a huge game vs effort. However, my personal preference is loving Bisu. He has a very high ELO, and other than his PvP woes vs Free, I'm not seeing any flaws in his play. If someone ends up putting Stats ahead of Bisu, I would find it completely justified. Look at the stats.
Just in case there is still any doubt about who should top the power rank, Flash is back at #1 in Elo to go along with his #1 in Kespa ranking. Let's make the trifecta and put him at #1 in the power rank too, just like the good old days.
On December 20 2011 18:30 Bill Murray wrote: I don't believe you can justify keeping Bisu out of the PR with his vs Z Stork you could do without easier, but I would put him around 4-6, depending on where you place Bisu.
Jangbi had his time at the top for winning the OSL. I'm into being conservative towards change, but lets face it, Flash is a better gamer than Jangbi. Who would you bet on if they played? If you want to speak with your heart, that's fine, but try to be logical here.
If I was making this today, after the SKT vs Ace matches, I'd put it like this:
Flash Jangbi Bisu Stats Fantasy Jaedong Soulkey Hydra Stork
-Zero drops out, losing 4 out of his last 5
I don't have the task of getting this perfect, however, so I don't believe I'll fiddle around with this too much.
straight stats: stats won 9 out of his last 10 Bisu won 15 out of his last 18 Soulkey won 8 out of his last 10 Jaedong won 7 out of his last 10 Jangbi won 7 out of his last 10, and a recent gold Flash won 7 out of his last 10 Fantasy won 7 out of his last 10, and a recent silver Stork won 6 out of his last 10, has won 4 in a row, and beat S class player Bisu in his last match Hydra falls, having won 5 out of his last 10
I'm not going to talk about the little things, though. I won't go on and on about Flash being the best player in the game, or Jangbi's OSL win (Which Kim Taek Yong has had elude him). Should Stats be #3? Probably. He's 9/10, and just won a huge game vs effort. However, my personal preference is loving Bisu. He has a very high ELO, and other than his PvP woes vs Free, I'm not seeing any flaws in his play. If someone ends up putting Stats ahead of Bisu, I would find it completely justified. Look at the stats.
i thought, although power rank does look at previous accomplishments, it emphasizes more on the play since the last power rank? in that case, bisu is 3/6 this season with wins over terrible players, ie great, action and jaehoon (though granted, jaehoon is 0-4 this season against really good opponents/and cheese).
cant say much about bisu's pvp losses, but his pvt was lackluster, he was able to scout bogus completely yet still failed to defend against the push. IMO, bisu will need way more games before he should be put into top 5
On December 20 2011 18:30 Bill Murray wrote: I don't believe you can justify keeping Bisu out of the PR with his vs Z Stork you could do without easier, but I would put him around 4-6, depending on where you place Bisu.
Jangbi had his time at the top for winning the OSL. I'm into being conservative towards change, but lets face it, Flash is a better gamer than Jangbi. Who would you bet on if they played? If you want to speak with your heart, that's fine, but try to be logical here.
If I was making this today, after the SKT vs Ace matches, I'd put it like this:
Flash Jangbi Bisu Stats Fantasy Jaedong Soulkey Hydra Stork
-Zero drops out, losing 4 out of his last 5
I don't have the task of getting this perfect, however, so I don't believe I'll fiddle around with this too much.
straight stats: stats won 9 out of his last 10 Bisu won 15 out of his last 18 Soulkey won 8 out of his last 10 Jaedong won 7 out of his last 10 Jangbi won 7 out of his last 10, and a recent gold Flash won 7 out of his last 10 Fantasy won 7 out of his last 10, and a recent silver Stork won 6 out of his last 10, has won 4 in a row, and beat S class player Bisu in his last match Hydra falls, having won 5 out of his last 10
I'm not going to talk about the little things, though. I won't go on and on about Flash being the best player in the game, or Jangbi's OSL win (Which Kim Taek Yong has had elude him). Should Stats be #3? Probably. He's 9/10, and just won a huge game vs effort. However, my personal preference is loving Bisu. He has a very high ELO, and other than his PvP woes vs Free, I'm not seeing any flaws in his play. If someone ends up putting Stats ahead of Bisu, I would find it completely justified. Look at the stats.
i thought, although power rank does look at previous accomplishments, it emphasizes more on the play since the last power rank? in that case, bisu is 3/6 this season with wins over terrible players, ie great, action and jaehoon (though granted, jaehoon is 0-4 this season against really good opponents/and cheese).
cant say much about bisu's pvp losses, but his pvt was lackluster, he was able to scout bogus completely yet still failed to defend against the push. IMO, bisu will need way more games before he should be put into top 5
yea power rank is supposed to mainly be about the last month
Bisu's play this month has NOT been #3 PR material--not even close.
Power Rank is about how hot a player is right now. Obviously that means that the most recent statistics matter the most, but I cannot stress enough that context is everything. Even if a player goes < 50%, that doesn't necessarily drop them from the ranking. It's all about context.
Nobody seems to visit the main PR thread anymore... not that I can fully blame them considering how it's completely buried in the current site layout, but still.
Let me copy over what little discussion there is from there:
On December 18 2011 20:54 jalstar wrote: There seems to be a complete lack of PR speculation for this month, maybe put the thread in BW general somehow?
My thoughts:
Flash is the best right now. Again. It's been long enough since Jangbi's OSL win that that doesn't give him first automatically, and Flash, unlike Jangbi, has been destroying everyone in his path, especially Horang2 today.
Hydra, Soulkey, Jangbi, Fantasy, and Stats all have variously strong cases for 2nd. Out of these, Soulkey is playing the best, followed by Stats. Jangbi was first last PR and hasn't been bad enough to fall out of the top 5. Fantasy and Hydra are incredibly streaky and it's too early to tell what kind of streak they'll be on. Jangbi and Soulkey would likely get 2nd/3rd in some order, and the rest in the 4th-9th range.
None of Stork, Bisu, and Jaedong really are playing like top 3 right now, but they should all definitely be on the PR. Stork had a very poor end to last season that he seems to be recovering well from, Bisu seems to have slipped from his PL monster status of 10-11, and Jaedong has been great except for that bizarre opening day game against Best.
Baby has been under the radar a bit but deserves a PR spot for his newfound consistency.
Biggest disappointment so far has been ZerO. He was so good towards the end of last season (in PL, not the finals against Flash) but hasn't really done anything this season. Today's game against Jaehoon was ok, the rest not so much.
On December 18 2011 20:54 jalstar wrote: There seems to be a complete lack of PR speculation for this month, maybe put the thread in BW general somehow?
My thoughts:
Flash is the best right now. Again. It's been long enough since Jangbi's OSL win that that doesn't give him first automatically, and Flash, unlike Jangbi, has been destroying everyone in his path, especially Horang2 today.
Hydra, Soulkey, Jangbi, Fantasy, and Stats all have variously strong cases for 2nd. Out of these, Soulkey is playing the best, followed by Stats. Jangbi was first last PR and hasn't been bad enough to fall out of the top 5. Fantasy and Hydra are incredibly streaky and it's too early to tell what kind of streak they'll be on. Jangbi and Soulkey would likely get 2nd/3rd in some order, and the rest in the 4th-9th range.
None of Stork, Bisu, and Jaedong really are playing like top 3 right now, but they should all definitely be on the PR. Stork had a very poor end to last season that he seems to be recovering well from, Bisu seems to have slipped from his PL monster status of 10-11, and Jaedong has been great except for that bizarre opening day game against Best.
Baby has been under the radar a bit but deserves a PR spot for his newfound consistency.
Biggest disappointment so far has been ZerO. He was so good towards the end of last season (in PL, not the finals against Flash) but hasn't really done anything this season. Today's game against Jaehoon was ok, the rest not so much.
There is a thread in BW general. Nobody is going there either.
I'm a bit hesitant to push SK all the way up to 2nd. If Fanta and Hydra are not going to be considered due to "streakiness" then it has to be pointed out that SK just doesn't have the kind of achievements attached to his name that either of them do.
There's still some more time so we should see what happens. I think that everybody has at least 2 more games before the next ranking, and that can mean a whole lot of difference, especially given that with such a looooooooooooong off season we are not only working from somewhat small samples, but don't have the benefit of being able to interpolate based on how a player has been progressing when you expand your view to 2 months or to 3 months.
On December 20 2011 03:43 VGhost wrote: I've been away from the PR for too long. Candidates so far for ranking, judging by record:
Stork, Soulkey, BaBy, Flash (all 3-0 or 4-0); maybe fantasy (2-0) & established player. Jaedong, EffOrt, Hydra, Jangbi Stats, BeSt, and sHy! (!) are all sitting at 3-1 as well.
Then we have a bunch (Bisu, ZerO, Light, free, Jaehoon, Bogus, Shuttle) of good-to-great players who have so far only gotten mediocre to bad records.
Right now my inclination is to leave Jangbi #1 and Flash #2, but after that:
Stork, Soulkey, BaBy; then Jaedong, Hydra, EffOrt, Bisu, Stats in some order. But it's a really tentative thing yet.
On December 20 2011 04:27 Mortality wrote: Don't see why Jangbi should be ahead of Flash. I think the only thing "diminishing" Flash's aura right now is that KT is not looking very dangerous and there are no individual leagues. Unless either Flash loses or barely scrapes through some horribly scrappy games, I don't see anyone else claiming #1 over him.
On December 20 2011 04:27 Mortality wrote: Don't see why Jangbi should be ahead of Flash. I think the only thing "diminishing" Flash's aura right now is that KT is not looking very dangerous and there are no individual leagues. Unless either Flash loses or barely scrapes through some horribly scrappy games, I don't see anyone else claiming #1 over him.
Most of the reason is that Jangbi's got a residual #1 ranking from the last PR which I don't think a loss to EffOrt entirely erases, especially when Flash has played nobody: his best vs. T opponent was Jaehoon: a quality win, but great's not that impressive and Horang2 is surprisingly weak vs. Terran. Admittedly Jangbi's opponents aren't great either (except for EffOrt who beat him), but unless we're going to blow the whole thing up and start over entirely I think there's nothing conclusive putting Flash back over Jangbi when Jangbi beat Flash (among other things) to take #1.
Not that Flash #1 would be a completely illogical choice, but you seem to be defaulting to that position and I'm not sure we've seen enough to prove that's legitimate right now.
If we were going to just ignore everything from before and go on this season, I think I'd make it look something like:
1. Stork 2. Flash 3. Soulkey 4. BaBy 5/6/7. EffOrt/Hydra/Jangbi 8/9/10. ... no idea. Pick from Jaedong, Stats, Bisu (I guess), fantasy, BeSt, ...maybe Piano?
On December 20 2011 06:42 Mortality wrote: Well, in fairness, Jangbi hasn't exactly played the strongest vP line-up either. Light is not a strong TvPer. Best is hot lately, but he's 2-6 in PvP in 2011, which is hardly convincing. Truthfully, Best's reputation for PvP is STILL a carry over from mid 2008. If you look closely at his record, he is 14-20 in (41%) in PvP since Jan 1, 2009, with only one brief hot streak in late 2010. Even if we include non-standard league games it's still only 19-24 (44%). Shuttle is fairly well known for his PvP, but he's never been an elite player and never been a sniper of Horang2's caliber, and he's on a 4 game loss streak, and is actually 5-6 (45%) in 2011 unless we count prelims... and who the fuck is ajuk12? So it's debatable how much that win is worth. And then of course we have the loss to Effort, who is something of a wildcard right now. I don't think it's safe to assume Effort's form is 100% yet, but how close to 100% is an important issue.
So, yeah, if we parse Jangbi's games then I'm inclined to give the nod to Flash. Granted we are operating on small samples with no data going back to OSL, but they were neck and neck then and I have Flash with an edge right now.
In terms of caliber of competition, SK looks fairly strong, but having gone through SK's results a little more intimately, [see this discussion: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291961¤tpage=52#1032], I am somewhat hesitant to hand over a top 3 just based on what he's done. He could of course continue this domination, in which case he will really have earned it, but let's not talk about the future. The fact that he hasn't faced an S-class player also weighs somewhat significantly.
Stork's kill list looks downright frightening. Fanta's also is very relevant, but it's only 2 games.
I really want to see another 2 games out of everybody before I make too many judgement calls.
On December 25 2011 21:39 Mortality wrote: Okay, I don't know if anyone still reads this thread anymore (or cares), but now with a little more data things are starting to shape up... sort of. At this point it looks like Flash is the clear #1 candidate unless he drops a game.
Undefeated (with at least 3 games played): Flash, SK, Baby (4-0 each) *note: just because a player is undefeated does not mean they should automatically be rated over someone who is, say, 4-1 or even 4-2, because context matters... however in the case of Flash he was #2 on the last rank and only not #1 because of Jangbi's meteoric rise 1-Loss: Stork (5-1), Stats, Effort (4-1 each), Fantasy, Piano (3-1 each) 2-Loss: Jangbi, Jaedong (4-2 each)
Going by stats alone, nobody else stands out. For instance, Hydra at 3-2 leaves me unimpressed, especially since he hasn't faced Terran (both his losses come from his "strongest" mu, ZvZ). That said, just because I haven't listed somebody doesn't mean that they are banned from PR or anything like that. Hydra and Bisu and maybe still Best are all still candidates, at the very least for CBNC.
Also on my mind for CBNC are players who have given strong performances, but not enough to be PR worthy. I was very impressed with Snow's game against Jaedong, especially in the control of the sair+archon vs muta+scourge.
The only "definite" I perceive right now is Flash #1. I'm hesitant to put Baby and SK in the top 3 over players who have proven they have what it takes in individuals. People are always tempted to hop on the bandwagon of an undefeated player, but we've been burned often enough in the past (e.g. Shine during his massive winstreak a year ago) that we ought to know better. If I have to choose, I'm more comfortable with giving the nod to Baby who was pulled some impressive wins over Jaedong and Flash in the past. By comparison, SK who seems so dominant statistically in ZvZ right now... has NEVER won a ZvZ series in his life against anybody, even in prelims. But in fairness to SK, other than his inability to win a ZvZ series to save his life, he is much more consistent and has been looking strong for a while.
Currently I'm leaning towards Stork as #2. I realize that Stork tends to come out strong at the start of a new season and then fade, and I also realize he's actually below Baby and SK in ELO due to his flopping around last season, but his kill list is pretty impressive and we know he can go the distance.
Why are people still talking about the OSL games? That was last power rank. This PR should be mostly be about PL performance, with some leverage given to Jangbi/Fantasy for being OSL finalists. Isn't that how it has worked in the past? My rank would go like this:
On December 20 2011 18:30 Bill Murray wrote: I don't believe you can justify keeping Bisu out of the PR with his vs Z Stork you could do without easier, but I would put him around 4-6, depending on where you place Bisu.
Jangbi had his time at the top for winning the OSL. I'm into being conservative towards change, but lets face it, Flash is a better gamer than Jangbi. Who would you bet on if they played? If you want to speak with your heart, that's fine, but try to be logical here.
If I was making this today, after the SKT vs Ace matches, I'd put it like this:
Flash Jangbi Bisu Stats Fantasy Jaedong Soulkey Hydra Stork
-Zero drops out, losing 4 out of his last 5
I don't have the task of getting this perfect, however, so I don't believe I'll fiddle around with this too much.
straight stats: stats won 9 out of his last 10 Bisu won 15 out of his last 18 Soulkey won 8 out of his last 10 Jaedong won 7 out of his last 10 Jangbi won 7 out of his last 10, and a recent gold Flash won 7 out of his last 10 Fantasy won 7 out of his last 10, and a recent silver Stork won 6 out of his last 10, has won 4 in a row, and beat S class player Bisu in his last match Hydra falls, having won 5 out of his last 10
I'm not going to talk about the little things, though. I won't go on and on about Flash being the best player in the game, or Jangbi's OSL win (Which Kim Taek Yong has had elude him). Should Stats be #3? Probably. He's 9/10, and just won a huge game vs effort. However, my personal preference is loving Bisu. He has a very high ELO, and other than his PvP woes vs Free, I'm not seeing any flaws in his play. If someone ends up putting Stats ahead of Bisu, I would find it completely justified. Look at the stats.
That's pretty bloody arbitrary, some of the games listed were months ago because of the long absence of games. If you look at the proleague 11-12 games played: (W/L) Stork - 5/1 Flash - 4/0 Soulkey - 4/0 Stats - 4/1 Effort - 4/1 JD - 4/2 Jangbi - 4/2 Fantasy - 3/1 Hydra - 3/2 Bisu - 3/3 Zero - 2/3
None of the records Fantasy above on the list above are completely heads and shoulders above one another, as none of the matchups involved were between big shots (with the exception of bisu vs stork). It comes down to individual perceptions of strength as well as a reliance on previous data and trends to rank the players.
I think most people can agree that Flash will probably sit at the top of the list, as he has a perfect record, and recent tournament history and record supports his recent record as a continuation of his position at the top (personally I think his recent matches have seemed almost flawless). Accurate and indisputable rankings have become much harder because of less games played (less proleague a week, less matches played, and no ace) - as well as less head to heads between the aces of each teams (again no ace matches).
Even amongst the top, dropping a game here and there is expected of the pros due to the nature of the game and the close level of mechanical skill among the pros.
Noticeable points from the proscene as of right now are Jangbi's success - showing that his OSL victory wasn't a fluke and that he's reasserting his position as one of the premiere protosses, Jaedong's ZvZ vs Roro + Show Spoiler +
a comeback from an almost certain BO loss with a lot of subtle plays that is reminiscent of the fabled JvZ
, and Effort's return and his record (with slight sloppiness included, but he is performing well nonetheless).
On December 26 2011 13:51 writer22816 wrote: Why are people still talking about the OSL games? That was last power rank. This PR should be mostly be about PL performance, with some leverage given to Jangbi/Fantasy for being OSL finalists. Isn't that how it has worked in the past? My rank would go like this:
Jaedong and Bisu have had some pretty lackluster PL so far.
I like your ranking for the most part, except for Effort being so high, while SoulKey and Baby being far lower, despite having played better. Neither of them have dropped a single game, and the games they won were, in my opinion, more impressive. I enjoyed Effort's game against Iris, but the rest were all pretty forgettable (excluding the game against Stats, which was decent, but he lost). Meanwhile, Baby dominated Leta and Light, which is definitely no mean feat, while SK was just fantastic in all his games, especially against Bogus. Not to mention SK being on a 7 game winstreak since July, while Effort has...well... no history at all for the past year. But I guess we'll have to see how things play out when CJ plays Stars tomorrow. If Effort beats Light, then I'll have no objections :>
Also a little unsure about Stats being above Stork, who despite his loss last night, is still leading in most wins this season, and against some great opponents (Zero & Bisu).
It's tough to put together a PR atm because of small sample sizes. Even the players winning most of their games are playing fairly easy opponents. If I had to put a list together it'd look something like this:
1. Flash 2. Stork 3. Jangbi 4. Soulkey 5. Baby 6. Jaedong 7. Effort 8. Stats 9. Fantasy 10. Piano
CNBC Best, Bisu, Hydra
The only clear thing for me is that Flash is no 1. Stork and Jangbi have both taken down some impressive opponents and played generally well. Soulkey and Baby both have perfect records, but not necessarily against the best opposition (SK is also continuing on from his 75% win rate in R5/6). 6-9 are interchangeable. They have all played fine so it's tough to rank any above anyone else. Piano has gone 3-1 and taken out some good opponents in Jangbi and Bogus. Best, Bisu and Hydra all started well but their records atm are all mediocre.
On November 29 2011 14:06 Gara wrote: This thread is much needed! Long live the one true Power Rank! None of this random users posting SC2 "Power Ranks" that are really just subjective lists of their own favorite SC2 players.
Even as a Khan fan, I'm not on board with JangBi hitting the top 4 right now. All of his PvT and PvZ play has been very questionable quirky strats that have produced 50/50 results (his PvP is great though) . Unless he beats Flash in the next match, I'd prefer to have him around #5-6. His wins can be downright dominating, but his weirdness is a turn off right now for me and his 2 losses left a bad taste in my mouth. I think there's easily room for at least 4 guys ahead of him (Flash, Stork, Stats, Soulkey, Baby, Jaedong, Effort all have reasonable arguments, along with others to some extent).
Are Stork and Stats are the top tosses right now? Maybe. Stats ownage in the playoffs has seemed to transition into this season. He lacks a lot of the "OMG" plays, but he gets results. Giving him a high spot is truly a testament to his name, since he gets wins so well. Stork being 5-1 without a single PvT really speaks volumes about how well rounded he is right now. He has a 75% PvP win percentage this season, so his one loss there is quite forgivable.
I'm totally feeling Soulkey for top 4. It might seem strange to name him the top Zerg, but it's really not when you look at win after win, after win, after win, since around April or so.
Flash Baby and Soulkey are the only real people with a guaranteed spot imo. Losing with such few matches, and not to one of these three is not really podium worthy. Stats and Stork, of the top of my mind, deserve very high positions too.
Mentioning those 3 undefeated players brings up an interesting point...
What is better: total wins, or less losses? Now the PR is not based purely on statistics, but for a moment let's focus on them. Is a 4-0, like from Baby and SK, comparable to someone who actually plays every game? Surely a 5-1 must be better. But go further, can you even say that 4-0 is no better than 4-2?
The more games we see players play, the more we get a feel for their power. But there's also the fact that everyone loses, and the more you play and more likely you are to show your moments of failure and give us losses. What if January trolled us and held back JangBi from playing in the CJ match, and we never had his fail 2 Gate? And what if he also was being saved for the 4th or 5th set versus ACE? Then JangBi would be 4-0 with dominating wins. On the same token, what is Baby wasn't saved for last and played in all of Team 8's matches, and we saw him do a horrible BBS and 2 Port Wraith leading to 2 losses?
How much can you punish players like Jaedong, JangBi, and even Bisu for their losses when they have been fielded so offen? And can we really say we know enough about some of the 4-0 and 3-1 players to really judge them this season yet? I mean, you can't ignore what you see when a player loses. It will matter in your perception of them. But we gotta be careful with players who have missed 2 or more games since we haven't had as much time to observe them.
Because of this, I feel that if a player has missed 2+ games thus far this season, we have to look toward the end of last season for judgement. So Baby seems badass, but his 4-0 could have been swapped with Jaedong's 4-2 if the coach did things differently. Since Baby wasn't spectacular toward the end of last season, I don't want to see him with a top 3 spot yet. Compare this to Fantasy who was quite good in the last PR time period, and has also missed 2 games so far this SPL. Fantasy's 3-1 is less impressive, and Baby especially looks the better TvT player right now.
However, if the PR were held today, I'd be very careful about placing Baby over Fantasy. His SPL right now is better, but with both players not showing their full face we gotta step back to months past. Likewise we can't ignore Jaedong's losses but we also know he has been a top 10 PR member for several years running, so can we really put Baby ahead of him when we haven't even seen that many of his games yet?
Good luck to Flamewheel trying to balance it all! You could make arguments for almost anyone being anywhere, but I hope he does it right.
CJ fans trying to push effort up KT fans trying to push stats up SKT fans trying to push FBB up khan fans trying to push stork up stars fans trying to push soulkey up
On December 27 2011 04:41 saltywet wrote: everyone is so biased its actually pretty funny
CJ fans trying to push effort up KT fans trying to push stats up SKT fans trying to push FBB up khan fans trying to push stork up stars fans trying to push soulkey up
ACE fans trying to push FBH? You'll never see it coming...
On December 26 2011 17:25 Crisium wrote: Mentioning those 3 undefeated players brings up an interesting point...
What is better: total wins, or less losses? Now the PR is not based purely on statistics, but for a moment let's focus on them. Is a 4-0, like from Baby and SK, comparable to someone who actually plays every game? Surely a 5-1 must be better. But go further, can you even say that 4-0 is no better than 4-2?
The more games we see players play, the more we get a feel for their power. But there's also the fact that everyone loses, and the more you play and more likely you are to show your moments of failure and give us losses. What if January trolled us and held back JangBi from playing in the CJ match, and we never had his fail 2 Gate? And what if he also was being saved for the 4th or 5th set versus ACE? Then JangBi would be 4-0 with dominating wins. On the same token, what is Baby wasn't saved for last and played in all of Team 8's matches, and we saw him do a horrible BBS and 2 Port Wraith leading to 2 losses?
How much can you punish players like Jaedong, JangBi, and even Bisu for their losses when they have been fielded so offen? And can we really say we know enough about some of the 4-0 and 3-1 players to really judge them this season yet? I mean, you can't ignore what you see when a player loses. It will matter in your perception of them. But we gotta be careful with players who have missed 2 or more games since we haven't had as much time to observe them.
Because of this, I feel that if a player has missed 2+ games thus far this season, we have to look toward the end of last season for judgement. So Baby seems badass, but his 4-0 could have been swapped with Jaedong's 4-2 if the coach did things differently. Since Baby wasn't spectacular toward the end of last season, I don't want to see him with a top 3 spot yet. Compare this to Fantasy who was quite good in the last PR time period, and has also missed 2 games so far this SPL. Fantasy's 3-1 is less impressive, and Baby especially looks the better TvT player right now.
However, if the PR were held today, I'd be very careful about placing Baby over Fantasy. His SPL right now is better, but with both players not showing their full face we gotta step back to months past. Likewise we can't ignore Jaedong's losses but we also know he has been a top 10 PR member for several years running, so can we really put Baby ahead of him when we haven't even seen that many of his games yet?
Good luck to Flamewheel trying to balance it all! You could make arguments for almost anyone being anywhere, but I hope he does it right.
Depends on the strength of the player. Arguably for Bisu, Jaedong or Flash 5-1 would be a worse result than 3-0. That's because you intuitively expect them to score around 80% at least so 3-0 doesn't look like a fluke and 5-1 isn't a great achievement. For everyone else 83% with high confidence is better than 100% with low confidence. But I can't see 4-2 as better 4-0 unless the quality of the games is clearly higher for the 4-2 player.
On December 27 2011 04:41 saltywet wrote: everyone is so biased its actually pretty funny
CJ fans trying to push effort up KT fans trying to push stats up SKT fans trying to push FBB up khan fans trying to push stork up stars fans trying to push soulkey up
I'm not seeing the bias from anyone. In my own case, I'm a big Effort, Jangbi, Soulkey fan. I think most people are fans of a lot of the players being talked about for PR. And many are fans of multiple teams.
flash has the top spot i guess. other than that there are some players like soulkey, baby, stork and jangbi who would deserve a high placement in the upcoming power rank...
FlaSh #1 EZPZ. However 2-10 is hard to call. You have players like Baby who as proven himself, BeSt who is on a tear in what most people called his worst MU (PvZ), Stats who is on fire and continues to play well even without his chin, and other mentions like Effort, Jaedong, Bisu, Jangbi, Stork, Soulkey, or Hydra.
all i know is that flash is #1, he's still the scariest looking one to face in a bo3
effort is back, stork seems to have pulled himself together, jaedong still good. i feel zero's slipping a bit. sun//rain seems to be becoming real good. havent watched enough fantasy or bisu to know how they're doing
On December 27 2011 04:41 saltywet wrote: everyone is so biased its actually pretty funny
CJ fans trying to push effort up KT fans trying to push stats up SKT fans trying to push FBB up khan fans trying to push stork up stars fans trying to push soulkey up
On December 27 2011 04:41 saltywet wrote: everyone is so biased its actually pretty funny
CJ fans trying to push effort up KT fans trying to push stats up SKT fans trying to push FBB up khan fans trying to push stork up stars fans trying to push soulkey up
I don't think I was being particularly biased. Despite being a SKT fan, I said nothing about FBB, but rather spent my time advocating for Baby and Soulkey, who have both performed quite impressively. And Stork kind of warrants automatic consideration, whether you're a Khan fan or not, simply for having the most wins this season. Everyone is giving pretty reasonable rankings and reasons for them, so if you disagree, then make specific disputes, instead of making generalizations.
On December 27 2011 04:41 saltywet wrote: everyone is so biased its actually pretty funny
CJ fans trying to push effort up KT fans trying to push stats up SKT fans trying to push FBB up khan fans trying to push stork up stars fans trying to push soulkey up
ACE fans trying to push FBH? You'll never see it coming...
Honestly, looking at his games, I would mention PianO over FBH in the CBNC. He went 3-1, defeating Bogus and Jangbi, and furthermore, his only loss came from Horang2 who is a total baller in PvT.
On December 27 2011 04:41 saltywet wrote: everyone is so biased its actually pretty funny
CJ fans trying to push effort up KT fans trying to push stats up SKT fans trying to push FBB up khan fans trying to push stork up stars fans trying to push soulkey up
At the end of the day, SOMEBODY has to be pushed up.
Flash is pretty much the clear #1, but who do you go with after that?
I'm against just handing it to a perfect record for this season just because that player has a perfect record over... 4 games. Which is nothing, really. Counting prelims, Casy's longest winstreak in TvP is 5 games. So if Casy can win 5 straight TvP, then it's reasonable to assert that 4 straight wins is not really that big of a deal.
Of course, Baby and SK have both played nicely (see vs Leta and vs Bogus, respectively). And both of these players have posted solid stats in the past. But I'd also criticize that neither has hit the big time yet. It's premature to call SK the #1 Zerg (must I repeat myself? He has never won a ZvZ series in his life, even in offline prelims, despite being statistically strongest in that MU... so why can't he win it when it counts most?) and Baby has not fully developed either, being perhaps as well known for his horrible slump when he lost his rainbow socks as for his impressive wins over Flash and Jaedong in the past. I'd hesitate to put either in the top 3. They both HAVE to be ranked, but top 3?
Effort HAS proven himself, but as has been pointed out that was over a year ago, and Effort's current form is absolutely not what it was when he won OSL. Period. I love the fact that my boy Effort is winning (even if his current hair is so obnoxious that my eyes bleed whenever I look at it), but is he really top 5? Top 10 I think he deserves for what he's done, but his play really is sloppy right now.
Stork... I don't really mean to "push" for him and I'm not really a Khan fan (if I had to pick a team, CJ or Stars probably), but he's currently my #2 if for no other reason than he has one of the more impressive kill lists (Zero, Bisu, and Movie has been moderately strong at PvP recently) and he has history. But his history also tends to go: strong at start of season -> collapse as season wears on. How much stock should be put in that? It's worth noting that he's behind SK and Baby in ELO rating for exactly this reason.
Jangbi... I think Crisium has made good points.
FBB: To be honest, I don't think I've seen any of SKT's games this season. Huh. I haven't been watching thoroughly enough. A part of me feels like Bisu has to be ranked simply due to his skill. He's a hot commodity even if he is only 3-3. Another part feels like "Bisu not performing in PL? That's all he's good for! If he can't do that he shouldn't be ranked!" Fanta deserves a little benefit of the doubt in that the reason he only played 4 games is that SKT was raping so much they didn't need him (in both the matches he didn't play he had been assigned a later set that wasn't needed). Can you really blame him for that? Somebody has to play the role of clean-up crew. You aren't necessarily going to stack your best 2 players at the very front. In fact, tactically speaking it's bad to do this since if they both lose it drains team morale and if they both win but the team loses it drains team morale because WWLLL is much harder to take than any other possible combination. As for Best... I'm not convinced in his PvZ and his PvP has actually been BAD for two years now. People still think "Best + PvP = win" when that hasn't been true since 2008. TLPD him if you don't believe me. I'm inclined to rank Fanta and Bisu and give Best a CBNC at most.
Stats is another player in basically the same category as Baby and SK.
So....
In other words, the only person I can't find a serious reason to bar from the top 3 is Fantasy and I'd bet that if I dove into his games I could find one.
As for under-regarded right now:
I think JD is not getting enough cred. For example in his game against Snow everybody was like "JD too greedy, his ZvP isn't what it used to be." Okay, his ZvP isn't what it had been back at the height of Swarm Season (2009), that much is true. But JD didn't lose due to greed. He lost that game because Snow played brilliantly. JD only really had to defend one choke point to cover 4 bases, so placing an extra hat at a fourth base didn't have a big impact. Snow's sair/dt was excellent, his sair+archon vs muta+scourge was excellent, and his timing attack came at the perfect moment, catching JD right as lurker tech finished. If JD had a serious fault that game, it was that he clumped his lurker eggs making them vulnerable to storm. IMO JD pretty much HAS to be top 5. Maybe top 3. There's also no reason to think that anybody other than JD is top Zerg.
Zero I think is getting a serious short shrift. He dropped 3 in a row, sure, but look at WHO he dropped them to. He's still the Ace for Stars. A bump in the road is not going to change that. I'm thinking CBNC.
Hydra... I'm having mixed feelings about. I'm unimpressed by his record, especially since he hasn't even played a Terran yet. His ling control vs Killer did not look like what I've come to expect from him. But by the same token, there's some unfairness there. Out of his last 11 ZvT, 5 were against Flash and 4 against Fantasy, so it's easy to dismiss his ZvT based on stats without recognizing that he's only facing top Terrans. It's like how in MMA you see a guy debuting in the UFC with a 12-1 record fighting someone with like a 8-5 record, except that the guy with the 8-5 record has been fighting in the UFC for a while and beats the living shit out of the 12-1 guy. Hydra's ZvT is only tested against the best. It's probably premature to doubt his ZvZ, and his ZvP is among the best in the business, with an ELO rating #3 and still rising. CBNC or a very low spot on the rank is still in the picture.
Bogus: I'm not suggesting he should be ranked or even CBNC'd, but he's faced one of the most brutal line-ups of anyone and delivered solid performances, even if they weren't quite enough.
Light: If you thought Bogus had a rough month, check out Light. Jangbi, Hyvaa, Best, Baby, Flash. Only one of those players is not being talked about for the ranking.
Nowhere near a perfect ranking. Need to check games more thoroughly, need more statistics. But trying to put players in by where they really matter.
I like this, although i might even go as far to switch Fanta with Stats then switch him and baby (and I'm a SKT fan), or bump Stats up to 6 and put Baby as 4th. I also think JB could be anywhere from 7th-10th, and I'm not even sure Hydra should be on it. Hmm, maybe I don't like this.
Also I think Kal should get a shoutout for beating Stork in his first televised match since joining ACE. (It is his first this season right? I remember being shocked when I saw his hair)
Nowhere near a perfect ranking. Need to check games more thoroughly, need more statistics. But trying to put players in by where they really matter.
I like this, although i might even go as far to switch Fanta with Stats then switch him and baby (and I'm a SKT fan), or bump Stats up to 6 and put Baby as 4th. I also think JB could be anywhere from 7th-10th, and I'm not even sure Hydra should be on it. Hmm, maybe I don't like this.
Also I think Kal should get a shoutout for beating Stork in his first televised match since joining ACE. (It is his first this season right? I remember being shocked when I saw his hair)
Nowhere near a perfect ranking. Need to check games more thoroughly, need more statistics. But trying to put players in by where they really matter.
I like this, although i might even go as far to switch Fanta with Stats then switch him and baby (and I'm a SKT fan), or bump Stats up to 6 and put Baby as 4th. I also think JB could be anywhere from 7th-10th, and I'm not even sure Hydra should be on it. Hmm, maybe I don't like this.
Also I think Kal should get a shoutout for beating Stork in his first televised match since joining ACE. (It is his first this season right? I remember being shocked when I saw his hair)
Nowhere near a perfect ranking. Need to check games more thoroughly, need more statistics. But trying to put players in by where they really matter.
I like this, although i might even go as far to switch Fanta with Stats then switch him and baby (and I'm a SKT fan), or bump Stats up to 6 and put Baby as 4th. I also think JB could be anywhere from 7th-10th, and I'm not even sure Hydra should be on it. Hmm, maybe I don't like this.
Also I think Kal should get a shoutout for beating Stork in his first televised match since joining ACE. (It is his first this season right? I remember being shocked when I saw his hair)
I kind of agree with you.
I think it should be something like this: 1. Flash 2-3 Fantasy/Jangbi 4-7 SK/JD/Stats/Bisu 8-9 Baby/Stork 10 Effort, hydra, or roro
I don't think that people that are currently on a streak but didn't perform too well before should be placed too high like Baby and Stork. The more consistent players should be ranked higher.
10th place is really hard to decide as there are quite a lot of candidates.
On December 27 2011 15:44 Nemesis wrote: people that are currently on a streak but didn't perform too well before should be placed too high like Baby and Stork
On December 27 2011 16:28 Mortality wrote: Effort is not top 3. I'm sorry, I love Effort, but I don't know how you can watch his games and call him top 3.
i don't actually like him, i think i was trying too hard to be fair to him
he has had pretty good results, though, and though i love jaedong i think jaedong's play has had more holes than effort's overall this season
On December 27 2011 16:28 Mortality wrote: Effort is not top 3. I'm sorry, I love Effort, but I don't know how you can watch his games and call him top 3.
i don't actually like him, i think i was trying too hard to be fair to him
he has had pretty good results, though, and though i love jaedong i think jaedong's play has had more holes than effort's overall this season
baby should probably be third, though.
right now i would say that soulkey is far too low in your ranking...could also be me being a fanboy but whatever :D dunno what to think about effort. some games were pretty good others not really
On December 27 2011 15:44 Nemesis wrote: people that are currently on a streak but didn't perform too well before should be placed too high like Baby and Stork
I think we should wait until the results of STX/KT tomorrow before trying to settle this. Right now, I think Flash is a pretty clear #1 and Stork is a pretty clear #2, but the others are pretty hard to put in order.
Also, what should we even be considering here? Outside of the first round of PL, does the previous OSL still count? How about the last PL playoffs and grand final? And how much weight do they get?
I think some more emphasis needs to be put unto performance in every game, especially considering how small the sample size is with the new format.
Stats' 4-1 is a lot more impressive to me than Effort's 4-1 in terms of how well he played in each of those games and the loss (the one game he lost was against an impressive Sea who seemed so happy that he didn't have to go against a toss that cheesed him). His play looked a lot cleaner, with less holes, and the loss was a close game that Sea really earned the win for. While I am sure most people would rank Effort higher on the PR because of his background as an OSL winner vs flash and his glamorous return, in terms of play this season (which given the large gap of games should be by far the largest determining factor for the first PR) I believe Stats is definitely more deserving of a higher ranking than Effort for this proleague.
The only thing that I am near certain of is Flash's position as number 1. Forbidding some super embarrassing loss to Modesty or someone of his vT caliber today, his play and record have simply been too clean this season to mark him anywhere lower.
Stork, Jaedong, Jangbi, Fantasy, Soulkey, Stats, Baby, Effort, Hydra, and several other players could be tossed around and we would have a decent (yet arguable) power rank.
Baby and Stats in particular, being shadowed by their more famous teammates, deserve greater recognition for their superb play this season.
The fact that ace matches have been removed make ranking these players a much more difficult task. Indeed, by seeing who was regularly sent out for ace, we could see who each team put faith into - as well as being able to see the trusted aces of each team duke it out with each other and see who triumphed over who.
I think some players' rankings will inherently suffer more from this change than others - players like Jaedong who, even on team 8, would probably be picked as the ace for his performance in inhouses, and historically had great performances against the aces of other teams, stand more to lose from this change than players like Fantasy, who was less likely to be picked for ace with Bisu's current form but still a heavy favorite against most non high A / S class players.
On December 27 2011 18:17 FuRong wrote: I think we should wait until the results of STX/KT tomorrow before trying to settle this. Right now, I think Flash is a pretty clear #1 and Stork is a pretty clear #2, but the others are pretty hard to put in order.
Also, what should we even be considering here? Outside of the first round of PL, does the previous OSL still count? How about the last PL playoffs and grand final? And how much weight do they get?
I feel that due to the long delay to proleague starting and the entirely new map pool the PR should put less weight on previous results. Thankfully most of the players on the most recent PR have been playing well enough to justify being put in the top 10 this time around also. The 2 notable exceptions are Bisu and Zero who are both 'only' at 3-3 this season. Normally it would be silly to drop them out of the rankings when they're only 1 game worse than Jaedong, Hydra and Jangbi. Nevertheless it's been 4 months since Zero's strong playoff run and Bisu's record breaking 10-11 season and most PR's wouldn't use results from that long ago. I myself would put them at the bottom of the rankings around but I would not be surprised nor upset if they were left off altogether.
On December 27 2011 15:44 Nemesis wrote: people that are currently on a streak but didn't perform too well before should be placed too high like Baby and Stork
1. Flash No question about it. Flash last four games has been dominating performances against great, Jaehoon, Horang2 and Light. It does'nt look like the wrist-operation has slowed down the killing machine, but he has yet to face the toughest of opponents 2. Stats Its hard to think of anyone more solid right now. Stats has had some pretty ipmressive wins against strong zergs such as Effort. I put him over the players below because he has had the most impressive victorys that showed his solid form and stamina. Stats is showing time and time again he can take on any zerg and beat their ass, all the while owning terran and protoss players left and right. Stats is a true proleague monster. 3. Neo.G_Soulkey This kid is just getting better and better. His ZvZ is great, his TvZ is mind blowing in the late game and for what its worth, i dont remember the last time he lost in a PvZ. This season he has had an incredible win against Bogus, utilizing lurkers and dark swarms to defend against Bogus mech army. 4. BaBy Baby is winning every game he's playing right now and he is doing it in fashion. Two TvT wins against the likes of Leta and Light. His stomping play of SKTs Soo in the first round was also of the fashionable kind using an interesting strategy with valkyries. Baby's still young and right now he is in the prime age of pro gamers. 5. Stork Stork is playing solid, going 5-1 so far this season. But his games have'nt been mind blowing either. But this is Stork we are talking about. He deserves the 5th spot. 6. JangBi Jangbi is 4-2, but his wins are more mentionable than his losses. He has beaten Best and Shuttle in PvP and his TvP wins against Light and Sea has showed amazing reaver and army control in the engagements. Jangbi is looking good, but his games have'nt given us taste of his standard play yet. Knowing his slumping past its hard to know if the reigning champion is to rely on 7. Jaedong His TvZ is the best in the world right now, but his ZvP is suffering hard time. And thats why the tyrant gets ends up in the lower part of the ranking this time around 8. EffOrt Dont believe the hype - someone ones said. And in the case of Effort, I'm not sure what to believe. Its to early to say if this is the return of the Messiah. What I do know rather, is that his play against Iris mech, sent shivers down my spine. I cant wait to see more of his TvZ 9. Bisu Bisu has not looked great, but not bad either. But its Bisu. We cant kick him off the power ranking just yet 10. Hydra Hydra has almost only played ZvZ. He's won 3 and lost 2. He also has dominating win against Brave. I dont know, its hard to tell where Hydra is right now, but judging by his play this last year and his position as kespas number one ranked zerg, i cant really exclude him off the power ranks
-Zero is now 3-3 and frankly he's had a fairly brutal list of opponents (IMO harder than Bisu's, who is also 3-3). Time to start thinking about the possibility of ranking him.
-Hydra is now 4-2.
-CJ looks scary as fuck. On any other team Movie and Snow would get a lot more play time.
Fantasy should get a better placement in those lists. He is 3:1 , looked really solid to me ( didnt watch vs Last yet) , he just didnt have a really good opponent yet
On December 28 2011 06:20 Kleinmuuhg wrote: Fantasy should get a better placement in those lists. He is 3:1 , looked really solid to me ( didnt watch vs Last yet) , he just didnt have a really good opponent yet
Zero isn't a good opponent? (Fantasy won, btw)
Seriously, Zero is must be underrated as all fuck.
On December 28 2011 06:20 Kleinmuuhg wrote: Fantasy should get a better placement in those lists. He is 3:1 , looked really solid to me ( didnt watch vs Last yet) , he just didnt have a really good opponent yet
Zero isn't a good opponent? (Fantasy won, btw)
Seriously, Zero is must be underrated as all fuck.
Yeah lol I didn't remember him beating Zero, I thought he had Canata, another easy T and some third easy win.. well that one being Zero just proves my point of Fantasy being pretty darn good !
On December 28 2011 06:20 Kleinmuuhg wrote: Fantasy should get a better placement in those lists. He is 3:1 , looked really solid to me ( didnt watch vs Last yet) , he just didnt have a really good opponent yet
Zero isn't a good opponent? (Fantasy won, btw)
Seriously, Zero is must be underrated as all fuck.
I think it's more that Zero was so bad in that game that no one mentally filed it as a great win. Everyone respects Zero's ability to pull out amazing games sometimes, but he's still plagued by an unfortunate tendency to be horrible with no explanation every now and then.
Also, Fantasy's other two wins were against Canata and Reality, and it probably hurts his standing that he's only played four games, whereas players like Bisu and Hydra have played six each.
On December 28 2011 06:20 Kleinmuuhg wrote: Fantasy should get a better placement in those lists. He is 3:1 , looked really solid to me ( didnt watch vs Last yet) , he just didnt have a really good opponent yet
Zero isn't a good opponent? (Fantasy won, btw)
Seriously, Zero is must be underrated as all fuck.
I think it's more that Zero was so bad in that game that no one mentally filed it as a great win. Everyone respects Zero's ability to pull out amazing games sometimes, but he's still plagued by an unfortunate tendency to be horrible with no explanation every now and then.
Also, Fantasy's other two wins were against Canata and Reality, and it probably hurts his standing that he's only played four games, whereas players like Bisu and Hydra have played six each.
That's because SKT raped their way through opponents without needing Fantasy. It's hard to blame him for that. The coaches and players confirmed that Fanta was scheduled to play. They were even joking about how Fantasy didn't get to play in his home town because they crushed their opponent before Fanta had a chance to go out.
I don't know why everyone expects everyone to play every game. This isn't soccer. SKT started the season looking absurdly scary.
On December 28 2011 06:20 Kleinmuuhg wrote: Fantasy should get a better placement in those lists. He is 3:1 , looked really solid to me ( didnt watch vs Last yet) , he just didnt have a really good opponent yet
Zero isn't a good opponent? (Fantasy won, btw)
Seriously, Zero is must be underrated as all fuck.
I think it's more that Zero was so bad in that game that no one mentally filed it as a great win. Everyone respects Zero's ability to pull out amazing games sometimes, but he's still plagued by an unfortunate tendency to be horrible with no explanation every now and then.
Also, Fantasy's other two wins were against Canata and Reality, and it probably hurts his standing that he's only played four games, whereas players like Bisu and Hydra have played six each.
That's because SKT raped their way through opponents without needing Fantasy. It's hard to blame him for that. The coaches and players confirmed that Fanta was scheduled to play. They were even joking about how Fantasy didn't get to play in his home town because they crushed their opponent before Fanta had a chance to go out.
I don't know why everyone expects everyone to play every game. This isn't soccer. SKT started the season looking absurdly scary.
I didn't say it was Fantasy's fault that he hasn't played. I'm saying that 3-1 with two of the wins being Reality and Canata and the loss being Last isn't really the kind of record that makes people think "wow, this guy should be on the Power Rank." Fewer games means less information, which in turn means that the information has to be more compelling to compensate.
On December 28 2011 05:49 Mortality wrote: -Zero is now 3-3 and frankly he's had a fairly brutal list of opponents (IMO harder than Bisu's, who is also 3-3). Time to start thinking about the possibility of ranking him.
Indeed. He looked dominating last game, although part of it was Leta just chilling with his M&M ball for too long. But I couldn't even keep track of how many bases ZerO had.
I would seriously consider ZerO ranking above Bisu at this point. ZerO lost to two S-Class players in Stork and Fantasy and Calm who appeared to not be in Clam form at the time. Bisu also lost to Stork, so that's even. I'd say the PvP loss to free is comparable to the ZvZ loss to Calm. But the difference is that Bogus is not quite at Fantasy's level, so ZerO actually gets the advantage in losses. So statistically ZerO certainly has a shot at passing Bisu (as of game 6, game 7 may change things). Subjectively, both have been "meh" and "great" at times. Bisu still proving that Zergs are nothing more that sacrifices to the PvZ Shin, and ZerO proving that he can be brilliant and fail in any matchup depending on the day of the week. Hopefully both play in their game 7 and that decides things - including the slim possibility of neither making it (the PR is that competitive right now).
Calm played very well against Zero. Of course, I think Zero made a mistake engaging Calm at that point, but the victory was due to Calm's excellent play. The muta flocks were exactly the same size I'm pretty sure, but if you watch Calm uses an excellent tactic to draw Zero's mutas into his scourge while simultaneously sniping Zero's scourge. It was over in just 1-2 seconds, but it's a beautiful little piece of Starcraft.
@gngfn I apologize. I interpreted what you wrote a little differently.
So I thought I'd jump back in here now that round 1 is finished.
1) Flash (I don't think you can really argue this) 2) Stork (Or this, 5-1 record including a win over Bisu) 3) Jangbi (Carryover from OSL win + respectable 4-2 record) 4) Stats (5-1 record plus carryover form from last PL finals. I want to put him at #3 but that's probably KT bias talking, so put him at #4 instead) 5) Baby (Undefeated record including wins over good players) 6) Fantasy (if Jangbi gets #3 then Fanta deserves this spot imo for 3-1 record plus all but winning the OSL) 7) Jaedong (only gets the top Zerg spot because he's JD really) 8) Effort (this could really go either way, I think Effort has looked more impressive in his games than...) 9) Hydra (who should maybe be higher considering he made the OSL ro4, but it's hard to separate these Zergs) 10) Soulkey (Would have been higher if he'd beaten Hydra, but ends up with a 4-1 record)
Stork's 5-1 is deceptive 3 of his wins were vs people whose worst matchup is arguably PvP (I'd argue Bisu's PvP has been shakier lately than his PvT, movie and tyson are definitely givens on the matter) + Show Spoiler +
I mean, he just lost a PvP!
He beat Hero, who is sort of a ZvP or ZvZ type of player with shakier ZvT... yeah, I just checked that, and I was correct.... but I don't trust hero as a test of Stork's PvZ
Stork's PvT was always his best matchup, but we haven't seen if it is as good as it used to be this season. I don't really want to push him up to #2 having only seen him play PvPs and PvZ vs a not-even-A-class player. What if he loses to Light again in a PvT like he did half a year ago? The reason I made my ranking a few pages ago the way I did, dipping into games from around July, is because of the lack of a sample size.
I would drop Bisu down on my list for sure, though, after his loss to Bogus
Flash Stats Jangbi Fantasy Hydra Stork Bisu Jaedong Baby Soulkey
On December 28 2011 20:03 Bill Murray wrote: Stork's 5-1 is deceptive 3 of his wins were vs people whose worst matchup is arguably PvP (I'd argue Bisu's PvP has been shakier lately than his PvT, movie and tyson are definitely givens on the matter) + Show Spoiler +
I mean, he just lost a PvP!
He beat Hero, who is sort of a ZvP or ZvZ type of player with shakier ZvT... yeah, I just checked that, and I was correct.... but I don't trust hero as a test of Stork's PvZ
Stork's PvT was always his best matchup, but we haven't seen if it is as good as it used to be this season. I don't really want to push him up to #2 having only seen him play PvPs and PvZ vs a not-even-A-class player. What if he loses to Light again in a PvT like he did half a year ago? The reason I made my ranking a few pages ago the way I did, dipping into games from around July, is because of the lack of a sample size.
I would drop Bisu down on my list for sure, though, after his loss to Bogus
Flash Stats Jangbi Fantasy Hydra Stork Bisu Jaedong Baby Soulkey
what a weird ranking. you have jangbi above stork when stork has the better record on khan and you have jaedong above baby when baby has the better record on 8.
I think it's too early to put up a new power rank maybe we should wait after all teams have play than decide again ? currently the data is really insufficient to determine the best rank for our favourite players.
On December 28 2011 19:26 FuRong wrote: So I thought I'd jump back in here now that round 1 is finished.
Fyi, round 1 is not finished. Each team still has one game to play. The extra game will make a difference, given the competitiveness of the ranking.
And Bill Murray, to me Stork being 5-1 without a PvT is a very good sign for Stork. A player going 5-1 without a single game in their best match up (a match up that Stork is the 2nd high ELO of all-time in) is very impressive.
The game against Light, more than half a year ago, can't really be held against Stork in a January 2012 PR. Plus it was 2 Base Carriers against a Deep Six - just an odd game.
So I agree with you that Stork's 5-1 is deceptive. Deceptively better than it seems since he has missed out on a single opportunity to display his best match up. And he's 3-1 in PvP, so you can't really hold his loss there against him too much.
Speaking of match ups, Stats has had a perfect balance so far, playing 2 of each. We have a lot of information to base his ranking on, and with a 5-1 record I totally expect him to get a nice ranking, perhaps even #2 as you have if he does well against Khan.
On December 28 2011 20:03 Bill Murray wrote: Stork's 5-1 is deceptive 3 of his wins were vs people whose worst matchup is arguably PvP (I'd argue Bisu's PvP has been shakier lately than his PvT, movie and tyson are definitely givens on the matter) + Show Spoiler +
I mean, he just lost a PvP!
He beat Hero, who is sort of a ZvP or ZvZ type of player with shakier ZvT... yeah, I just checked that, and I was correct.... but I don't trust hero as a test of Stork's PvZ
Stork's PvT was always his best matchup, but we haven't seen if it is as good as it used to be this season. I don't really want to push him up to #2 having only seen him play PvPs and PvZ vs a not-even-A-class player. What if he loses to Light again in a PvT like he did half a year ago? The reason I made my ranking a few pages ago the way I did, dipping into games from around July, is because of the lack of a sample size.
I would drop Bisu down on my list for sure, though, after his loss to Bogus
Flash Stats Jangbi Fantasy Hydra Stork Bisu Jaedong Baby Soulkey
Why are you ignoring his game against Zero? You don't need to use hero as a judgment for Stork's PvZ, because we saw it when he completely dominated Zero, who is no scrub Zerg. Going 5-1 playing only your weaker matchups is admirable. Although I do hope he wins a PvT this round (yeah, I'm looking at you, Flash).
On December 28 2011 22:29 Sawamura wrote: I think it's too early to put up a new power rank maybe we should wait after all teams have play than decide again ? currently the data is really insufficient to determine the best rank for our favourite players.
How many games would it take for you to feel we have sufficient data? A power rank isn't a statistical measurement, and therefore it doesn't need to be statistically significant. Sports sites put up power ranks for the NFL despite there being only 4 games a month. The Cincinnati Bengals and Atlanta Falcons are both at 9-6 while going 2-2 in the month of December. There is not enough statistical data to rank one definitively over the other but that wouldn't stop me from putting Atlanta above Cincinnati in a power rank based on margin of victory/defeat, strength of opposition and overall quality of play. In the same way while 6 games may not be enough to tell us whether Stork or Stats is playing better right now, we can certainly debate it based on the quality of their opponents, the ease with which they won, and solidness of their play.
Movie has been looking strong in PvP recently. If we were talking 8 months ago I might have dismissed a PvP victory over Movie pretty easily, but he definitely upped his game somewhere around round 5 or 6 of the last PL year.
You know, regarding Fantasy's loss to Last, I just took a peak at Last's record on TLPD. In his last 8 TvT, his only loss was to Flash. Granted, only Baby, Mind and Fantasy stand out as meaningful wins, but you have to go allllllllll the way back to April to find his next TvT loss. And he DOES get play time, so that's not the issue. As a matter of fact, Last is also undefeated this PL season with a 3-0 record, however, I'm not about to even consider him for a CBNC spot because TvT seems to be BY FAR his best MU. His TvP in particular is just terrible, with only 1 win in the past TWO YEARS.
On December 29 2011 08:58 Mortality wrote: Movie has been looking strong in PvP recently. If we were talking 8 months ago I might have dismissed a PvP victory over Movie pretty easily, but he definitely upped his game somewhere around round 5 or 6 of the last PL year.
You know, regarding Fantasy's loss to Last, I just took a peak at Last's record on TLPD. In his last 8 TvT, his only loss was to Flash. Granted, only Baby, Mind and Fantasy stand out as meaningful wins, but you have to go allllllllll the way back to April to find his next TvT loss. And he DOES get play time, so that's not the issue. As a matter of fact, Last is also undefeated this PL season with a 3-0 record, however, I'm not about to even consider him for a CBNC spot because TvT seems to be BY FAR his best MU. His TvP in particular is just terrible, with only 1 win in the past TWO YEARS.
he's not even the best T on STX so i can't justify giving him a spot here
On December 29 2011 08:58 Mortality wrote: Movie has been looking strong in PvP recently. If we were talking 8 months ago I might have dismissed a PvP victory over Movie pretty easily, but he definitely upped his game somewhere around round 5 or 6 of the last PL year.
You know, regarding Fantasy's loss to Last, I just took a peak at Last's record on TLPD. In his last 8 TvT, his only loss was to Flash. Granted, only Baby, Mind and Fantasy stand out as meaningful wins, but you have to go allllllllll the way back to April to find his next TvT loss. And he DOES get play time, so that's not the issue. As a matter of fact, Last is also undefeated this PL season with a 3-0 record, however, I'm not about to even consider him for a CBNC spot because TvT seems to be BY FAR his best MU. His TvP in particular is just terrible, with only 1 win in the past TWO YEARS.
he's not even the best T on STX so i can't justify giving him a spot here
Uhm. I think you misread my post. "...I'm not about to even consider him for a CBNC spot..."
7-9 Jaedong and Bisu did not play well enough to be ranked higher than 7, and if they didnt have name value i wouldn't even put them on the list. they are 7-9 just because they are jaedong and bisu. fit EffOrt here as well, for his decent results.
10. BeSt or Fantasy. BeSt for nice wins against good opponents, fantasy because of best's embarrassing loss to calm
On December 29 2011 08:58 Mortality wrote: Movie has been looking strong in PvP recently. If we were talking 8 months ago I might have dismissed a PvP victory over Movie pretty easily, but he definitely upped his game somewhere around round 5 or 6 of the last PL year.
You know, regarding Fantasy's loss to Last, I just took a peak at Last's record on TLPD. In his last 8 TvT, his only loss was to Flash. Granted, only Baby, Mind and Fantasy stand out as meaningful wins, but you have to go allllllllll the way back to April to find his next TvT loss. And he DOES get play time, so that's not the issue. As a matter of fact, Last is also undefeated this PL season with a 3-0 record, however, I'm not about to even consider him for a CBNC spot because TvT seems to be BY FAR his best MU. His TvP in particular is just terrible, with only 1 win in the past TWO YEARS.
he's not even the best T on STX so i can't justify giving him a spot here
Uhm. I think you misread my post. "...I'm not about to even consider him for a CBNC spot..."
On December 28 2011 05:49 Mortality wrote: -Zero is now 3-3 and frankly he's had a fairly brutal list of opponents (IMO harder than Bisu's, who is also 3-3). Time to start thinking about the possibility of ranking him.
Indeed. He looked dominating last game, although part of it was Leta just chilling with his M&M ball for too long. But I couldn't even keep track of how many bases ZerO had.
I would seriously consider ZerO ranking above Bisu at this point. ZerO lost to two S-Class players in Stork and Fantasy and Calm who appeared to not be in Clam form at the time. Bisu also lost to Stork, so that's even. I'd say the PvP loss to free is comparable to the ZvZ loss to Calm. But the difference is that Bogus is not quite at Fantasy's level, so ZerO actually gets the advantage in losses. So statistically ZerO certainly has a shot at passing Bisu (as of game 6, game 7 may change things). Subjectively, both have been "meh" and "great" at times. Bisu still proving that Zergs are nothing more that sacrifices to the PvZ Shin, and ZerO proving that he can be brilliant and fail in any matchup depending on the day of the week. Hopefully both play in their game 7 and that decides things - including the slim possibility of neither making it (the PR is that competitive right now).
I agree. After a rough start, Zero has now shown us some extremely brilliant games (especially the game vs Leta yesterday). If we are giving Bisu a spot on the PR I think we should be equally careful in not shortchanging Zero.
Just to drop some statistics in order to revitalize this discussion...
All of this data is just pulled straight from TLPD. I'll give a bit of thought to it after dropping it here.
Top players based on +/- (wins minus losses): 1. Flash (5pts) 2. Stats, Stork and Baby (tie - 4pts) 5. Effort, Soulkey and Last (3pts) 8. Jangbi, Jaedong, Hydra, Piano, Fantasy (2pts)
I would advise against simply taking this data at face value. For example, a 2-1 record is only 66.7% wins whereas a 3-0 record is 100%, but due to sample size, you cannot definitely say that the 3-0 player is better. Especially considering that SC players tend to be very streaky.
Top 10 based on ELO attained directly from the current PL season: 1. Flash 2088 2. Baby 2074 3. Stats 2073 4. Stork 2065 5. Last 2056 6. Effort 2053 7. Soulkey 2050 8. Piano 2039 9. Jangbi 2036 10. Jaedong 2034 Noteworthy: Zero (2007) and Bisu (1991)
This measurement isn't a direct measure of how difficult a player's opponent list is because it effectively restarted everyone's ELO at 2000 at the start of the season and counts only PL games toward the ELO rating. So suppose you beat Flash in the first game of the season. Then it's a victory of a 2000 player over a 2000 player, not a victory over the top ranked player (alright, technically Bisu had the highest overall ELO at the time, but you know what I mean). Also, players who go WWWL are going to be penalized more than players who go LWWW against the same caliber competition because the WWWL player is almost guaranteed to have a higher ELO than his opponent at the time of loss, meaning he loses more points for the same game.
That said, this should give a rough idea of how players are progressing.
Top 10 total ELO: 1. Flash 2334 2. Bisu 2323 3. Jaedong 2245 4. Zero 2237 5. Hydra 2236 6. Fantasy 2235 7. Jangbi 2222 8. Effort 2211 (note: TLPD picked up his ELO right where it left off over a year ago, so this may not be an accurate reflection) 9. Baby 2209 10. Stats and Soulkey (tie - 2207) Notable: Movie 2205
It's important to view this picture for what it is.
It shows us how Baby, Stats and Soulkey are progressing, how much further they need to go to mark themselves among the more proven players (all of the top 7 have a significant accomplishment from the past year -- a tournament final or better, or PL MVP in Bisu's case). They are definitely closing the gap, but based on statistics alone, I'd argue that they haven't proven themselves there yet.
It also shows that despite losses, We aren't seeing significant drops from players like Zero or Hydra or Bisu. In the grand scheme, those losses have not proven very relevant and shouldn't be taken as a cry for a slump.
Also it shows an interesting place for Movie who has been mostly overlooked over the past year, but has steadily gained ground. What nobody has truly realized yet is that this kid has a whopping 68.9% wins during 2011. Yes, you read that right. I'd criticize that Movie hasn't been as thoroughly tested as, say, Zero, and that since his games come almost exclusively from PL it's a bit easier to maintain a higher win percentage (in a standard OSL format 16 man tournament, it's impossible to achieve over 70% wins without at least making the finals -- 70% is the cutoff of going 3-0 in your group, 2-0 in Ro8 and 2-3 in semifinals).
Other noteworthy's are Stork, who is still under 2200 despite his impressive record so far this season, which includes victories over players with high ELO. The reality is that this shows exactly how much Stork declined at the end of the last PL year.
And Light. Despite an atrocious record, Light is sitting at 2183 ELO. With Light's record it's impossible to earn even a CBNC, but consider WHO he lost to. That's why Light's ELO has not changed very heavily. When considering a small sample size, who you beat is more important than how many.
Even though the last 2 games Round 1 are technically in January, I think tonight's games ought to be counted towards this power rank. Past PR's have done something similar before, and I feel like a PR including all of round 1 is much tidier. An extra game would definitely help for deciding where to place Stork, Stats, Jaedong and Baby in the top 10. One could even consider putting Stork at #1 if he plays Flash and beats him.
Yup, the new PR will certainly be a "Round 1 PR" more than a December results PR.
Round 2 ends on February 11th, so it's a bit more debatable whether or not to do a Round 2 or a January results. But at least until the OSL starts, it's probably better to do it by rounds so we have enough games. More glhf to Flamewheel on his decisions.
So hard to tell except with Flash at the top (providing he doesn't lose embarrassingly tonight, in which case he'd probably still be at the top) since there haven't been that many games. I wish January would use Turn more instead of Brave, Grape, or Juni, he showed a lot of potential last year and even though it was obvious he had to work on in his play, he showed that he had what it takes to win games.
More thoughts, now that we have more games. My last thoughts on the subject were here, a week and a half ago. My current thoughts are more or less in line with everybody else's, with of course slight differences in emphasis (or bias).
If the rank were done today: Flash takes the top spot. Tonight if Flash wins, he'll be 6-0, better than anybody else so far, and with a residual #2, there is not really room for debate. With one loss (to EffOrt) I thought Jangbi deserved to keep #1; with a second loss to Piano.
On the other hand, if Flash loses, then there are arguments to be made for a few people to take the spot.
Jangbi could be #1 if he beats Flash head to head. 5-2 and 5-1 are not that different; the combination of a head to head win with Jangbi's residual #1 spot would let Jangbi retain the lead.
However, BaBy, Stats, Stork, and fantasy have all looked very strong.
Each of them has problems, though. Stork and BaBy have the best resume based on opponents and best (non-Flash) record respectively. But neither was anywhere near the top at the end of the last season; even with the break it would be a huge jump to put either one immediately as #1. Stork would have to beat Flash or Stats to justify it; BaBy would have to dominate Bogus, Last, Shuttle, or Calm in order to make an argument, and have Flash (at least) lose, as his opponent list is weak otherwise.
fantasy and Stats were both on the rank last time, so they have that momentum for what it is worth. fantasy has looked good, but he has an opponent list that looks unconvincing. Movie and Reality are quite good, especially Movie, but that loss to Last that looks worse than it is since Last is basically sKyHigh but even worse at the non-TvT matchups (although fantasy did also get schooled in that game, so maybe it isn't worse than it looks). Stats has a solid opponent list, and the only drawback is that he's the only Protoss who's managed to lose to Sea this season. Not that losing to Sea is in any way a bad loss, I'm just saying. Even with their residual rankings, I feel like either one of these guys would need truly horrific play from the four others discussed so far to be a reasonable number one.
but 2-6 are basically interchangeable. My order of ranking them is basically by bias, though if I had to justify it, I would say: Stork – best opponents; Jangbi – good play and #1 coming in; BaBy – undefeated so far; Stats – only this low because of the other three; fantasy – bad loss to Last and two weird wins (vs. ZerO and vs. Movie).
7-10 should be, I think, Jaedong, Hydra, EffOrt, and Neo.G_Soulkey, in some order. I don't really care what order. The only significant challengers to these four are Leta and Bisu, who in my opinion managed to lose their way off the rank. None of their losses by themselves were bad (the worst loss of their combined five was Bisu losing to free), but this is the area of At Some Point Results Matter. CNBC for both I think, along with Last just for his TvT, and maybe ZerO.
One note on ZerO & Neo.G_Soulkey: both lost badly to Terrans I think they should beat (or at least could beat: admittedly ZerO 5:4 fantasy in other games; Soulkey 1:1 firebathero ditto) on Ground Zero. To my eyes, both losses were almost entirely because of an incredibly bad build – after ZerO's loss I was practically in shock when Soulkey pulled it out again last night. Obviously part of Starcraft is not using bad builds, but these particular losses I'm willing to consider more lightly because of build problems.
I think Jaedong is being badly underrated right now. I didn't see his loss to Best, but otherwise he's been impressive. Even in his game against Snow, that was more about Snow playing well than Jaedong playing poorly. Comments about he is too greedy are overstated. If his lurker eggs had been spread out he may have survived that attack. If he survived, he would have a 4-2 base advantage. The reality is that a big part of JD's drop was his sudden drop in ZvZ. He went from 2300 ZvZ ELO to less than 2150 almost overnight -- a virtually unimaginable drop. But there should be no doubt that he has recovered and is currently the top Zerg in the world... in EVERY matchup.
[Edit: okay, I'll take that back. Maybe his ZvZ still has a bit to prove, but who could you confidently pick over him in ZvZ right now? Hydra? Maybe. That's about it.]
Flash has to be first. Stork is a good pick for second due to the value of his kill list. Jangbi I'm inclined to boot further down the list because he's not playing as well as he did last season. That could change in his last game, but right now I'm inclined to have 3-5 as JD, Fanta and Baby in some order. Stats and Jangbi follow. Then Hydra is next. After that, I may be inclined to say Bisu then Soulkey.
This actually drops Effort to CBNC. Don't get me wrong, I like Effort. I liked him before he became popular, even. But Effort's current play is not at the same level it used to be. There's an element of sloppiness there that tells me he's not in 100% form and that he's had a bit of luck with his wins.
Zero was going to be on my CBNC and possibly on my ranking with a strong win last night. But ouch. God was he raped. He looked pretty pathetic actually. Don't get me wrong, there were some nice moments with his control and that evo chamber block was absolutely brilliant, but that was not a game that an S-class or even an A-class ZvPer should have lost. Kal was not using his corsairs very effectively (hi, let's just sit there for the scourges), Zero's OL were badly out of place to deal with that dt drop, he didn't handle the early split attack as well as he should have, and I have no idea why he thought it was a great idea to fool around with trying to snipe that archon with his mutas (and taking 4 hits to his muta stack in the process). Kal had some good moments, but a good ZvPer should not lose like that.
Movie I was tempted to CBNC. Still tempted.
Light I'm actually tempted to CBNC. His record is just horrible, but look who he has played. That's why his ELO is so close to Soulkey when I'm pretty sure SK started the season ahead.
Last is not on my CBNC. He's developing into a TvT sniper, but he hasn't shown anything else and I hate cluttering CBNC.
Piano deserves a CBNC. He's played a huuuuuuge role in keeping Ace in the picture.
Most of the reason I have Jaedong so low is that loss to BeSt, honestly. JD didn't just lose; he looked bad. I'd have to watch it again to be sure, but as I remember, BeSt basically macro'd up a bit, moved out, occupied the middle of the map, and smashed JD's 3rd repeatedly until he forced the gg. And it's not like BeSt has suddenly become a good PvZer, either: although he's 2-1, his other win is against Crazy-Hydra, who's a 40% player and worse than that ZvP; Calm made BeSt look silly.
Then for Jaedong, other than the loss to Snow (which was, yes, smart timing and closer than it looked), he hasn't played anybody really good. He outclassed Mind; he beat RorO; good – he should. M18M, though, is just terrible at PvZ (35%); that makes his best win free, who is (sadly) just barely hanging on to even A-class status right now. Compared to other top players' games so far, that's simply not cutting it.
I don't doubt Jaedong as still one of the top players in the world overall, but he's had a decidedly unimpressive round so far. A solid win over any of STX's A-class (Bogus, Calm, Shuttle) tonight would do a lot to convince me he actually belongs closer to the top than the bottom of the PR. A loss, even a ZvZ loss, and I'm not sure what I think.
I also don't like Bisu on the PR at all right now – yeah, he's looked good overall, but he simply has too many losses. That could just be my biases though.
It's not a record rank though. (Seriously, I know this is not you, but there are some people who want PR to be a copy/paste of TLPD results and I simply don't understand why that would warrant a ranking, or any kind of discussion, at all).
If I watch the Best game, maybe it will change my mind on JD. As for "good, he should beat Roro," I don't think it's that straightforward. Granted Roro's ZvZ hasn't been doing well lately, but he's had good results in that MU in the past, and he had a clear BO advantage. I agree that JD hasn't exactly had the kind of high profile wins I'd like to see to justify those losses, but pretty much nobody has been producing that kind of result. The only people whose opponent lists I can't really pick apart are Light and Bogus, both of whom have losing records. So I'm going to shrug my shoulders a bit about JD's stats. I think he looks scary as all fuck. And that's why I think he deserves top 5.
I do agree that a loss tonight would spoil the picture for JD, especially because nobody on STX *should* beat him (not that either of his losses *should* have happened, but losses to players you're supposed to be able to beat *do* happen... up to a point; beyond that point you have to ask if there's something wrong).
With regards to Bisu, my thinking is sort of similar. I think his PvZ is absurdly scary and I don't think the loss to Bogus is a good judge of his PvT. For PvP... Stork seems to totally have Bisu's number these days so I'm sort of willing to forgive that loss. The loss to Free ways a bit more heavily in my mind. I generally tend to think that Free is the unsung hero among the Six Dragons, but Free has been struggling for the past year to maintain his A team spot.
mortality i don't know about that. obviously it's not a record rank but i don't really think fantasy and jaedong have looked good during their losses either. nor has bisu always. they all have looked very good during their wins, which is why it makes sense to have them on PR. but i don't see a good rationale for putting any of them above baby and stats.
On January 01 2012 08:43 Mortality wrote: With regards to Bisu, my thinking is sort of similar. I think his PvZ is absurdly scary and I don't think the loss to Bogus is a good judge of his PvT. For PvP... Stork seems to totally have Bisu's number these days so I'm sort of willing to forgive that loss. The loss to Free ways a bit more heavily in my mind.
I think the loss to Bogus was by the far the worst loss of the season for Bisu. He had a real opportunity to win that game and he did not play well enough. He could have at least stalled for a lot longer with the amount of Dragoons he had out, but he let Bogus move too freely into position.
The game against Free was not a bad loss at all. Free rolled the build-order dice and it payed off. Chase out of the scouting Probe with the first Dragoon, immeditately drop a Nexus and pray Bisu is playing safe. Bisu went 2-gate obs, so he lost.
After Flash, I don't think anyone has looked as scary as Stats this round so far. He's ripping shit up and a huge part of why KT went from LAST place to 2nd. I don't think that Stork/Jangbi/Baby has a stronger argument for a higher placing than stats, especially taking today's games into consideration.
Maybe stats has more to prove in the individual leagues, but he's been a monster in PL for awhile now: clutch when it counts e.g. play-offs, bona fide ace-level player for KT and consistent as heck. He's been easily a top 3 protoss for awhile now and I think that needs to be recognised...
Well geez. Tonight's results (not necessarily games, since I missed all but the last set of STX vs T8) make me question some of the assumptions that went into the latest rank I drew up. I suppose at this point I'll just wait to see what flamewheel comes up with, and start arguing again from that.
imho while it's easy to use the baby v. last game in last's favor, i also think that due to the highly specialized nature of the build and the razor-edged-ness of the timing, it shouldn't count too too much against baby. also worth noting that last ended up undefeated playing only TvT. i think it's a bit like losing to skyhigh on a very good day
On January 01 2012 17:09 Mortality wrote: Stork is no longer #2. Jangbi's stock is falling fast.
Yeah, I guess I have to retract my previous contribution after the last two days. I really don't know anymore. I think Last deserves a place, and I'm not sure if Effort or Soulkey still warrant one.
I can clearly see the top three: 1)Flash 2)Fantasy-coming off from a very nice 4-1 record with good wins over Movie and Zero and his only loss being to rampaging TvT player Last,also silver medalist form OSL. 3)Stats - the most impressive player this month without a doubt with great 5-1 record and bagging wins over the likes of Effort and Bogus,both of them being great vP players.
but than its paper thin difference between Effort,Hydra,Stork,Bisu,Baby and Jangbi. I also think Last deserves 9th or 10th place,because of his 4-0,despite being only in TvT-s, he beated good players like Baby and Fantasy.
imho while it's easy to use the baby v. last game in last's favor, i also think that due to the highly specialized nature of the build and the razor-edged-ness of the timing, it shouldn't count too too much against baby. also worth noting that last ended up undefeated playing only TvT. i think it's a bit like losing to skyhigh on a very good day
Yeah, unless we know that he isn't a one trick pony ala skyhigh he should be at CBNC.
Though he has mntioned that he was confident enough to want to take on stats in the interview... Who knows, he might be as good as bogus?
also guys, don't bother spoiler, flamewheel has been very cear about that this thread is a place of spoilers so dont worry about it
On January 01 2012 22:55 zmeqt wrote: I can clearly see the top three: 1)Flash 2)Fantasy-coming off from a very nice 4-1 record with good wins over Movie and Zero and his only loss being to rampaging TvT player Last,also silver medalist form OSL. 3)Stats - the most impressive player this month without a doubt with great 5-1 record and bagging wins over the likes of Effort and Bogus,both of them being great vP players.
but than its paper thin difference between Effort,Hydra,Stork,Bisu,Baby and Jangbi. I also think Last deserves 9th or 10th place,because of his 4-0,despite being only in TvT-s, he beated good players like Baby and Fantasy.
I agree with your top 3. But Last deserves no place on the PR - yet. I'm not sure how you could overlook Jaedong either. So replace Last with Jaedong (although I'd rank Jaedong higher than 9) and that's the 10 that I expect in the PR. As for the order... who knows.
On January 01 2012 08:43 Mortality wrote: With regards to Bisu, my thinking is sort of similar. I think his PvZ is absurdly scary and I don't think the loss to Bogus is a good judge of his PvT. For PvP... Stork seems to totally have Bisu's number these days so I'm sort of willing to forgive that loss. The loss to Free ways a bit more heavily in my mind.
I think the loss to Bogus was by the far the worst loss of the season for Bisu. He had a real opportunity to win that game and he did not play well enough. He could have at least stalled for a lot longer with the amount of Dragoons he had out, but he let Bogus move too freely into position.
The game against Free was not a bad loss at all. Free rolled the build-order dice and it payed off. Chase out of the scouting Probe with the first Dragoon, immeditately drop a Nexus and pray Bisu is playing safe. Bisu went 2-gate obs, so he lost.
I think his loss against Bogus was pretty much equal with the Free one, both games he just got absolutely shafted on the initial build orders and got into spots that its incredible hard to get out of. He looked like MABYE he could have broken the push just before that one mine hit all his dragoons but even without that mine its not sure he could have broken that, Bogus still had 7 tanks and excellent positioning. He was severely behind due to the buildorders and its not like he was just giving away the ridges since Bogus was leapfrogging his tanks everytime he got close to them. Once he scouted the 5fac and SCV cut he did the appropriate respons that is cutting probes and mass gates too try to stop the push and still got crushed. The most questionable thing he did that game was the first engagement he did on the last ridge where he lost a few goons without actually doing any damage to Bogus force, but then again he cant really just give up that ridge either and let bogus get up turrets and get the superior high ground position.
Personally I think the loss against Stork was his worst, where he twice got caught out of position with his goons. While the other 2 losses came from hard BO disadvantages more than mistakes in his own game.
On January 01 2012 22:55 zmeqt wrote: I can clearly see the top three: 1)Flash 2)Fantasy-coming off from a very nice 4-1 record with good wins over Movie and Zero and his only loss being to rampaging TvT player Last,also silver medalist form OSL. 3)Stats - the most impressive player this month without a doubt with great 5-1 record and bagging wins over the likes of Effort and Bogus,both of them being great vP players.
but than its paper thin difference between Effort,Hydra,Stork,Bisu,Baby and Jangbi. I also think Last deserves 9th or 10th place,because of his 4-0,despite being only in TvT-s, he beated good players like Baby and Fantasy.
I agree with your top 3. But Last deserves no place on the PR - yet. I'm not sure how you could overlook Jaedong either. So replace Last with Jaedong (although I'd rank Jaedong higher than 9) and that's the 10 that I expect in the PR. As for the order... who knows.
I don't see how you could leave out Last. Sure, he's only played TvT's so far but he's still the only player other than Flash(out of the players who have at least played 3 games) who is undefeated (4-0). I bet if Bisu went 4-0 only facing zergs, people wouldn't say he should be left out of the PR. Last beat Fantasy and Baby (both only have 1 loss) and even though Mind and Iris aren't doing too well, they're still solid terrans. He's shown that he can keep his focus and outLAST opponents in long drawn out games and even showed us a strategic build in his recent win over Baby. Last definitely deserves a spot on the power rankings.
On January 01 2012 22:55 zmeqt wrote: I can clearly see the top three: 1)Flash 2)Fantasy-coming off from a very nice 4-1 record with good wins over Movie and Zero and his only loss being to rampaging TvT player Last,also silver medalist form OSL. 3)Stats - the most impressive player this month without a doubt with great 5-1 record and bagging wins over the likes of Effort and Bogus,both of them being great vP players.
but than its paper thin difference between Effort,Hydra,Stork,Bisu,Baby and Jangbi. I also think Last deserves 9th or 10th place,because of his 4-0,despite being only in TvT-s, he beated good players like Baby and Fantasy.
I agree with your top 3. But Last deserves no place on the PR - yet. I'm not sure how you could overlook Jaedong either. So replace Last with Jaedong (although I'd rank Jaedong higher than 9) and that's the 10 that I expect in the PR. As for the order... who knows.
I don't see how you could leave out Last. Sure, he's only played TvT's so far but he's still the only player other than Flash who is undefeated (4-0). I bet if Bisu went 4-0 only facing zergs, people wouldn't say he should be left out of the PR. Last beat Fantasy and Baby (both only have 1 loss) and even though Mind and Iris aren't doing too well, they're still solid terrans. He's shown that he can keep his focus and outLAST opponents in long drawn out games and even showed us a strategic build in his recent win over Baby. Last definitely deserves a spot on the power rankings.
Last is a definite CNBC, but he's always been a TvT specialist. A quick look at his record and you see he hasn't won a non-mirror in a regular league in two and a half years, when he beat Stork on Shades of Twilight, a map Last played almost exclusively for STX that season as it was TvT heaven. Even that game, Stork failed a cheese, very similar to Jangbi's loss to Piano recently. Further, the win against Stork is his only win against even an A-class player except in TvT, other than some 2-1 and 1-2 results against Protoss in prelims. Saying he still has too much to prove is excessively charitable, and I'm actually a big fan of Last.
On January 02 2012 10:27 Oystein wrote: I think his loss against Bogus was pretty much equal with the Free one, both games he just got absolutely shafted on the initial build orders and got into spots that its incredible hard to get out of.
Huh? 5fac timing is a pretty common thing, and hardly an "initial build order"... it's a standard response to double expand which has been deflected tons of times. What am I missing here?
Bisu messed up by failing all his zealot bombs, his micro in engagements was horrible. And shouldn't he have had a reaver? That's not an initial build order.
On January 02 2012 20:01 flamewheel wrote: I'm not going to lie, this is one of the tougher PRs to write and it's killing me.
You might be able to fill more stuff in by writing about how the reduction in # of games has affected the relative strengths of players. Maybe having a less intense proleague schedule is the reason why teams are now this close?
On January 02 2012 20:01 flamewheel wrote: I'm not going to lie, this is one of the tougher PRs to write and it's killing me.
You might be able to fill more stuff in by writing about how the reduction in # of games has affected the relative strengths of players. Maybe having a less intense proleague schedule is the reason why teams are now this close?
I actually hadn't really considered this. I'll try to work some stuff in (might be better as a separate article in PL news) but right now I've been writing for 6 hours or so and I've only got the top 5 locked down. And my reasoning still seems somewhat tenuous, but lack of data will do that ><
On January 02 2012 20:01 flamewheel wrote: I'm not going to lie, this is one of the tougher PRs to write and it's killing me.
You might be able to fill more stuff in by writing about how the reduction in # of games has affected the relative strengths of players. Maybe having a less intense proleague schedule is the reason why teams are now this close?
I actually hadn't really considered this. I'll try to work some stuff in (might be better as a separate article in PL news) but right now I've been writing for 6 hours or so and I've only got the top 5 locked down. And my reasoning still seems somewhat tenuous, but lack of data will do that ><
Well, if it's any consolation the next power rank will have the OSL to consider as well. Given that players and coaches have more time to devote to every match now, for the bottom 5 a lot of reasoning will hinge on how they performed when things went out of their safe little practice bubble. How did Jangbi do, for example, when he faced snipe builds or faced an unfamiliar map?
On January 02 2012 10:27 Oystein wrote: I think his loss against Bogus was pretty much equal with the Free one, both games he just got absolutely shafted on the initial build orders and got into spots that its incredible hard to get out of.
Huh? 5fac timing is a pretty common thing, and hardly an "initial build order"... it's a standard response to double expand which has been deflected tons of times. What am I missing here?
Bisu messed up by failing all his zealot bombs, his micro in engagements was horrible. And shouldn't he have had a reaver? That's not an initial build order.
Its initial build order in the way that Bisu had already put down his 3rd nexus before he gets to scout it, just like Bogus in blindly 5fac allining without actually scouting the 3rd nex by Bisu (he did scout the probe at the expo so I guess he can somewhat assume hes going to expo, but he never actually saw the nexus). 5fac SCV cut is a build designed specially to punish greedy tosses, both players did their initial build orders without any significant scouting information. Its still their early build order despite it actually being longer into the game than say a 12hatch vs 9pool, the thing is none of them have scouted anything certain about their opponents builds. And what you are missing is that this is a 5fac from a rax-cc against a gate tripple nex and that is basicly the hardcounter for a gate nex nex build. Compare forinstance the game of Turn vs Sun where Turn does a similar 5fac scv cut build after a FD opener, against Suns 12nex into normal timed 3rd + mass gates. At the same time Turn is leaving his natural to move Bogus is already closing in on the second ridge. Sure its possible to hold 5fac with a triple nex build, but its a lot harder too do with gate, nex, nex vs rax-cc than it is with say gate, nex nex against FD into 5fac.
Bisu didnt fail all his zealot bombs, take a look at them again, after he drops the first one and bogus tanks fire on them he actually unsieges his back tanks and targetfires with his sieged tanks on the goons while using the unsieged tanks and vultures to clear up the zealots. Thats excellent control by Bogus, and the same thing happens in the next battle with bogus using vultures to kill the zeals and target firing the goons again with his tanks. Getting a reaver is a huge investement in a spot where you are already pressed for time, maybe it could work if you get of some good scarabs and dont get your reaver target shot early, but its really cutting into your gate\unit production and the ideal way to stop a 5fac is to just have enough units to throw at it to break it and basicly winning the game if you stop it since T will be low on scvs and no upgrades.
On January 02 2012 10:27 Oystein wrote: I think his loss against Bogus was pretty much equal with the Free one, both games he just got absolutely shafted on the initial build orders and got into spots that its incredible hard to get out of.
Huh? 5fac timing is a pretty common thing, and hardly an "initial build order"... it's a standard response to double expand which has been deflected tons of times. What am I missing here?
Bisu messed up by failing all his zealot bombs, his micro in engagements was horrible. And shouldn't he have had a reaver? That's not an initial build order.
Its initial build order in the way that Bisu had already put down his 3rd nexus before he gets to scout it, just like Bogus in blindly 5fac allining without actually scouting the 3rd nex by Bisu (he did scout the probe at the expo so I guess he can somewhat assume hes going to expo, but he never actually saw the nexus). 5fac SCV cut is a build designed specially to punish greedy tosses, both players did their initial build orders without any significant scouting information. Its still their early build order despite it actually being longer into the game than say a 12hatch vs 9pool, the thing is none of them have scouted anything certain about their opponents builds. And what you are missing is that this is a 5fac from a rax-cc against a gate tripple nex and that is basicly the hardcounter for a gate nex nex build. Compare forinstance the game of Turn vs Sun where Turn does a similar 5fac scv cut build after a FD opener, against Suns 12nex into normal timed 3rd + mass gates. At the same time Turn is leaving his natural to move Bogus is already closing in on the second ridge. Sure its possible to hold 5fac with a triple nex build, but its a lot harder too do with gate, nex, nex vs rax-cc than it is with say gate, nex nex against FD into 5fac.
Bisu didnt fail all his zealot bombs, take a look at them again, after he drops the first one and bogus tanks fire on them he actually unsieges his back tanks and targetfires with his sieged tanks on the goons while using the unsieged tanks and vultures to clear up the zealots. Thats excellent control by Bogus, and the same thing happens in the next battle with bogus using vultures to kill the zeals and target firing the goons again with his tanks. Getting a reaver is a huge investement in a spot where you are already pressed for time, maybe it could work if you get of some good scarabs and dont get your reaver target shot early, but its really cutting into your gate\unit production and the ideal way to stop a 5fac is to just have enough units to throw at it to break it and basicly winning the game if you stop it since T will be low on scvs and no upgrades.
I agree with this (a lot).
Couldn't post before, and it was killing me when people say Bogus' build was a normal 5 Fac timing. He did it blindly, w/o scouting, like mentioned, and happened to hard-counter his opponent's build. If he had an Acad-> Comsat, and reacted to the early 3rd, i wouldn't have breathed a word.
Last gives off the same feel as Skyhigh last time, which is to say that i think he deserved to be mentioned, but not ranked yet.
The thing is, SkyHigh at least had proved himself in TvZ at one point in the past, before he got ranked. If you look at his record pre-Avalon MSL, he was actually doing well in TvZ and while he was mostly facing weaker opponents, he did go a total of 2-3 vs JD in this time period and 2-0 over GGplay. This of course includes his reverse sweep of OZ in the SWL finals.
Also, SkyHigh was at one point (much later on) close to Flash in TvT ELO, maybe even slightly ahead for a few days. And at one point he sported a 3-1 head-to-head record over Flash. (Not to mention his domination in head-to-head over Leta, who was very strong in TvT at the time.)
Last simply has not proven himself the way SkyHigh had. He's drawn some attention for sniping top Terrans, but he's never won a high profile match, he's never beaten a strong ZvTer, only once scored a win over a strong PvTer, and does not sport a winning record head-to-head over any top TvTer. A mention in CBNC... okay, I'll take it so long as you're pointing out that STX has needed those wins. An actual spot on the ranking? Let's not joke here.
On January 02 2012 20:23 mnesthes wrote: Who ends up #2 of PR is probably the question that everyone wants an answer most right now
Haha, so awesome when Flash goes undefeated, the haters can't come up with a single argument
Uhh it's not too much to be excited about considering the opponents... teams are blatantly sending weaker players rather than have the possibility of him beating the best players on the team. Recently KT's choices seem to be getting better though i think.
Anyone else noticed CJ's ability to pick the correct players is ridiculous? They manage to get favored matchups like 90% of the time.. EffOrt/Horang2 vs P, Snow/Leta/Hydra vs Z, Movie/Leta/Skyhigh vs T. Obviously the ridiculous depth helps them but hardly seems an excuse for say SKT1 to get 4 matchups all exactly how CJ would have wanted it.
Uhm, Snow's PvZ, I won't say it's bad because it's not, but it's spotty. Inconsistent. By ELO and win% it's his worst MU. It's easy for someone just looking at stats to underrate him in PvZ, but the reality is that he loses more than he wins (vs Zerg).
Also, Movie on paper is a solid, solid PvT, but lately it's arguably his weakest. By my count he's 1-5 in 2011 against strong TvP opponents. Granted, I'm not counting Sea as a strong TvPer, which is not entirely fair since like Snow's PvZ, Sea's TvP can also be described as spotty or inconsistent. And 2 of Movie's wins over Sea came during SWL when Sea knocked down some strong Protosses.
Beyond just the W/L numbers, looking at how many different maps the players covered in one season can offer an additional perspective on the power rank. Is a player a map specialist? A matchup sniper that bounces from map to map, and wins with the right coaching? An all-around ace? Or somewhere in between?
Back in the days when there were many more PL matches to prep for each week, map specialists would probably have the advantage over snipers since each sniper would only have 1-2 days to finish a gameplan, while the map specialists would be getting essentially free practice on that map many, many times per week. Now, the snipers have the upper hand since they have up to 5 days to finish a build, while map specialists get less real games to work with. The end result of this is that coach choices become a bigger determining factor in player performance than before.
I know it's not their strongest, but they are sending them out in those matchups on purpose. Well to be fair Snow has not been sent out enough to say any specific matchup tbh, but Movie is being sent out for PvT's. His record this year is better than Snow's fairly easily so not too surprising.
It makes sense anyway, because he sucks vP and even if he's decent vZ, they try to avoid it anyway it seems like. And funnily enough Horang2 would somehow be the better choice if his form last season is what to go by.
And speaking of Sea, he's 1-5 this season.. and it was all TvP... i doubt they wanted that so team 8 really needs to improve their picks,
flash stats stork jaedong fantasy baby soulkey bisu hydra jangbi or best or effort
I'm pretty sure I got 1-9 correct, but the 10th spot is really hard. It will presumably be a lot easier next month when there is also the OSL going on.
cbnc for last but nothing more for him.
perhaps JD could be lower, but he still looks really good in zvz and zvt, and I can't think of anyone below him on the list that honestly looks better overall than JD right now.
On January 03 2012 05:59 Xiphos wrote: I would place Stats higher than Flash because Stats have faced much higher caliber of players than Flash (Effort + Bogus)
Well thats results, but would you honestly say that Stats is better than Flash? I doubt it. Flash is undeniable #1.
On January 03 2012 05:52 Ideas wrote: flash stats stork jaedong fantasy baby soulkey bisu hydra jangbi or best or effort
I'm pretty sure I got 1-9 correct, but the 10th spot is really hard. It will presumably be a lot easier next month when there is also the OSL going on.
cbnc for last but nothing more for him.
perhaps JD could be lower, but he still looks really good in zvz and zvt, and I can't think of anyone below him on the list that honestly looks better overall than JD right now.
Hmm Soulkey above Bisu? I agree that 4-2 is better than 4-3 by a bit, but looking at their play alone, i feel that Bisu is a more powerful player at the moment (i'm a Bisu fan, but even before that, it's an opinion as objective as possible).
Bisu won convincingly, and took 3 BO losses (that was not all, there were other mistakes in those losses, but FE vs 3Gate Goons, 2Gate Obs vs FE, Fast 3 Base vs Blind 5-Fac are all solid BO disadvantage). Soulkey won the same number of game, and didn't look as convincing, at least to my eye.
For the same reason, i would keep Flash above Stats (in response to the guy above me who wanted to put Stats above Flash). Well, this is even clearer seeing as Flash is undefeated, while Stats took a stain to his otherwise awesome record so far into the season.
On January 03 2012 05:48 infinity2k9 wrote: I know it's not their strongest, but they are sending them out in those matchups on purpose. Well to be fair Snow has not been sent out enough to say any specific matchup tbh, but Movie is being sent out for PvT's. His record this year is better than Snow's fairly easily so not too surprising.
It makes sense anyway, because he sucks vP and even if he's decent vZ, they try to avoid it anyway it seems like. And funnily enough Horang2 would somehow be the better choice if his form last season is what to go by.
And speaking of Sea, he's 1-5 this season.. and it was all TvP... i doubt they wanted that so team 8 really needs to improve their picks,
Hm? Snow was 8-6 in PvT in 2011. Admittedly, 0-3 against strong TvPers is comparable to 1-5, but I'd put Snow's PvT ahead of Movie's. I also think Movie's PvP is underrated right now. The reason why people think of Movie as a sucky PvPer is that his record stank like crap in 2010 (6-18), but in 2011 he's gone 7-4 and his recent loss to Stork came at the end of a 6 game win streak. Admittedly, the players on his kill-list don't exactly stand out (Kal's been stinking up the joint recently, Brave has a high win% in PvP but that was mainly earned in 2010 and he's a relatively unestablished player). Basically, only Bisu, Horang2 and Stats have had consistently solid PvP in 2011, so it's probably the hardest matchup to get a read on the results from right now -- worse in some respects than ZvZ.
Regarding Team 8's decision with Sea, they might not have a lot of choice. Everybody was talking about how they are a Dream Team when they were first formed, but I think it was somewhat deceptive. The problem with Team 8 is that they have a strong vZ line-up and a ridiculous vT line-up, but a very weak vP line-up.
[Edit: TL;DR at the bottom for the lazies]
Look by ELO: Jaedong 2222 (#2 in the world) Baby 2090 (#22 in the world) Sea 2036 (#39 in the world) Killer 2031 Tyson 2003 Jaehoon 1997
Let's start from the bottom. Jaehoon has to be considered wasted against any non Terran. His ELO peak in PvZ is 2000 (what you start at!) and 2046 in PvP. Admittedly he scored a 5 game win streak in R5/6, but that came from Bloody Ridge, his specialty map.
Tyson is also wasted against any non Terran. His ELO peaks are fairly balanced (2099/2085/2077, vT/Z/P resp.), bust just open up his page on TLPD and he's 2-8 in his last 10vP and 3-7 in his last 10vZ.
Killer is a little more feasible to send vP. For one thing he has a winning record, lifetime, and 4-6 (4-3 in last 7) in his last 10 is not horrible. But where are the wins against competent PvZers? A recent win over Jangbi is the only one all year. Furthermore, Killer is a good ZvZer and competent, albeit inconsistent, ZvT.
Sea is clearly stronger at vP than any of the guys below him. His vZ has not been strong recently (only 1 win in his last 9 games vZ, and it was over hyvaa who is a ZvP sniper and nothing else these days). Admittedly Sea is a very strong TvT. #2 in the world right now (#4 overall vT). But basically the entire line-up on Team 8 is strong vT, so the stock that gets placed in that is limited.
Baby by ELO and would be a better choice than Sea for TvP and recent record also agrees... marginally. But would you really want to tamper with Baby given what he's doing right now? He's a TvZ wrecking ball at the moment and his TvT is looking solid too.
And then of course there's JD, who while very strong at ZvP, is even stronger in ZvT and historically speaking the greatest ZvZer EVER. So he's kind of wasted vP, but has been plugged into that role anyway as a stopgap.
TL;DR Team 8 might be very strong on paper, but they have a crappy vP line-up. They really should have drafted Hiya. Really, really.
On January 03 2012 07:37 Crisium wrote: Watching Hiya's TvP a couple months ago in Fish, I'm not sure he would be up to the task.
IIRC Hiya took a break after being forced to retire and tried out SC2.
Even if his last 3 games were losses, and even if his performance is no longer what it was, the man went 11-6 in 2011. Statistically, that would have been enough to put him as the strongest vP player on Team 8 based on 2011 results, 2nd strongest by ELO. With a wiiiiiiiiiiiiiide margin over third (Baby).
Flash should be obvious, just doing his thing as usual. Best and Stats both look very solid in every matchup this season, I feel like even though Best's record is a little worse than Stats so far, he's been playing stronger opponents and I'd say they're evenly matched or maybe even give Best a small edge (I am an SKT fan, though :p). Jaedong isn't doing anything spectacular but at least he's not losing every ZvZ again and overall feels like he's on the rise again. Fantasy had a dumb loss but his other games were nice, his vZ looks a lot powerful than before - feel like he could have been 5-1 or 6-1 if given the opportunity to play extra games. A little unsure about putting Effort there, especially so high, since the games he won felt like his opponents weren't doing as good as they should have been, but I feel like he's more versatile than Hydra already, and has more potential. Stork has a nice record but he basically won a couple PvPs, was handed a few free wins by bad zergs, and lost in very stupid fashion too - don't really feel like there's any justification to put him any higher than this spot. Bisu just keeps breaking my heart in PvP, but his vZ definitely deserves at least some mention in power ranks, as he's absolutely unstoppable in that MU right now. Unsure if Kal deserves a mention since he only played 3 games, but he looked very strong in all 3 of these, and I don't really think any other players are more deserving. Jangbi, Soulkey, Hydra, and FBH all had some good games but also some rather meh losses, maybe Soulkey less than the other 3. Really not sure why should Jangbi be on power rank at all except for his last OSL win - his play seems very uninspiring right now IMO; Hydra and FBH are kind of the same.
On January 03 2012 05:59 Xiphos wrote: I would place Stats higher than Flash because Stats have faced much higher caliber of players than Flash (Effort + Bogus)
Well thats results, but would you honestly say that Stats is better than Flash? I doubt it. Flash is undeniable #1.
Yes, yes I would.
Flash have beaten people that were were making a lot of mistakes in their play. I doubt that ANYONE could say the same about Effort and Bogus. Stats' game have generally been more tight since the competition is just that much higher.
On January 03 2012 05:59 Xiphos wrote: I would place Stats higher than Flash because Stats have faced much higher caliber of players than Flash (Effort + Bogus)
Well thats results, but would you honestly say that Stats is better than Flash? I doubt it. Flash is undeniable #1.
Yes, yes I would.
Flash have beaten people that were were making a lot of mistakes in their play. I doubt that ANYONE could say the same about Effort and Bogus. Stats' game have generally been more tight since the competition is just that much higher.
But he lost to sea, who has lost to every other protoss. It's really ironic to see this, but it doesn't bode too well for stats. Effort played terribly against stats. Flash is still #1 imo.
On January 03 2012 05:59 Xiphos wrote: I would place Stats higher than Flash because Stats have faced much higher caliber of players than Flash (Effort + Bogus)
Well thats results, but would you honestly say that Stats is better than Flash? I doubt it. Flash is undeniable #1.
Yes, yes I would.
Flash have beaten people that were were making a lot of mistakes in their play. I doubt that ANYONE could say the same about Effort and Bogus. Stats' game have generally been more tight since the competition is just that much higher.
But he lost to sea, who has lost to every other protoss. It's really ironic to see this, but it doesn't bode too well for stats. Effort played terribly against stats. Flash is still #1 imo.
But....that game vs Bogus made me broke my keyboard once Bogus GGd, NEVER have a game made me so mad at the winner (no not even when Shine drilled that back mineral on HBR and got rid of Stork in the EVER OSL). I was screaming "OH COME ON NOW!" at end of it for god knows how long lol
1. Flash 2. Stats 3. Stork--can't really fault him for losing to a hydraling all-in. He even played safe and got 2 cannons, only mismicroed his zeals a bit 4. BeSt--really redeeming himself after the SPL finals 5. Jaedong 6. BaBy 7. Fantasy 8. Hydra 9. EffOrt 10. Last--establishing himself as a decent TvT sniper. a bit more depth and he could move up the rank
On January 03 2012 10:41 Mortality wrote: No idea how Best is supposed to be top 3 based on PL performance. That just doesn't compute.
Why not? The game he lost against Calm was pretty ridiculous, you could say 'but he should have clicked on the backdoor mineral' but I doubt any P would've been expecting a hatch there; his loss vs Jangbi was pretty straight up but it's not like he played bad there or anything, his control was just a tiny bit weaker than Jangbi's for the moment, which happens to pretty much everyone in mirror matchups now and then. His wins on the other hand were all quite convincing, the only exception being the first week match vs JD where the Dong frankly just let Best kill him, but even there, Best had a great build and excellent execution, and even if JD had played safer and held the attack that broke him, Best would've still been in great shape to continue the game. He didn't really have many 'OHMYGOSH THAT WAS AWESOME' moments so far in the season, but he's just looking very solid and consistent, in all 3 matchups - which is more than can be said about any other P so far with the exception of Stats.
No he is not. Best didn't even appear on last power rank so having him in top 3 now is ridiculous. And frankly his current form couldn't even guarantee a spot in CBNC much less the power rank itself.
There are very few true build order losses in the game of broodwar. There are many BO advantages, but losses? So saying Bisu had three (stretching the bounds of logic as well) of such varieties is completely idiotic. You're indirectly suggesting that Bisu doesn't have the chops to come back from disadvantageous circumstances, aren't you
Build order loss is an uneducated term that is now thrown around these forums more than "bonjwa" and "cheese."
On January 03 2012 13:12 InTheFade wrote: There are very few true build order losses in the game of broodwar. There are many BO advantages, but losses? So saying Bisu had three (stretching the bounds of logic as well) of such varieties is completely idiotic. You're indirectly suggesting that Bisu doesn't have the chops to come back from disadvantageous circumstances, aren't you
Build order loss is an uneducated term that is now thrown around these forums more than "bonjwa" and "cheese."
I don't agree with him either.
I think Bisu has two build order loses (The PvPs) and one small, very overcomeable, build order disadvantage, the PvT against Bogus.
The way you put it sounds extremely silly though, like it's extremely false rather than slightly so. Have you even seen the games? Are you arguing the builds weren't as he said? Or are you arguing that the builds he did say aren't straight losses and are just 'disadvantages'? I can assure you the PvPs are a matter of hoping your opponent throws the game away, not that you play amazingly and take it back.
For instance, the Free game is winnable if Free doesn't attack and and instead rides his macro advantage for too long and you both max, or at least both get large armies where you can realistically hope to overcome the disadvantage with positioning and control. But this is strictly Free's mistake, Bisu can play as well as he likes in this case and it wont change a thing if Free doesn't make it.
1. Flash 2. Stork (he looks solid with wins over Bisu and ZerO) 3. Stats (he would be number 2 if he wasn't the only P that Sea beat) 4. BeSt (he lost to the OSL champ, but he did manage to show that he can beat one of the best PvP'ers out there) 5. Jaedong (his ZvP looks a little shaky though, with losses to BeSt and Snow) 6. BaBy (his lone loss came against Last who has shown himself to be a TvT sniper) 7. Fantasy (same story as BaBy but I feel BaBy's opponents have been higher caliber) 8. EffOrt (started off strong with going 3-0 with a win over the OSL champ, since then his only win came against Tyson) 9. Last (TvT sniper pulling off impressive wins over BaBy and Fantasy, he has yet to play anything else though) 10. Hydra (I wanted to put Neo.G_Soulkey here but since he didn't win vs Hydra, I have to place Hydra ahead)
On January 03 2012 06:10 ffreakk wrote: Fast 3 Base vs Blind 5-Fac are all solid BO disadvantage
Going fast 3 base is just as blind as 5-facing is, the way you worded this shows bisu bias without me even having to look at your icon
I am not sure what you are implying. 12-Hatch vs 9-Pool Speed, do both players do it blind? Yet it's still considered BO disadvantage (a 80% guaranteed loss, even, from what i know). So both players did their build w/o scouting information and 1 happens to hard-counter the other, i called that a BO disadvantage. Why does it showcase my bias? Unless you look at my Icon, went "Lololol Bisu fanboy" and typed what you did?
On January 03 2012 13:12 InTheFade wrote: There are very few true build order losses in the game of broodwar. There are many BO advantages, but losses? So saying Bisu had three (stretching the bounds of logic as well) of such varieties is completely idiotic. You're indirectly suggesting that Bisu doesn't have the chops to come back from disadvantageous circumstances, aren't you
Build order loss is an uneducated term that is now thrown around these forums more than "bonjwa" and "cheese."
If you would read a sentence further into my post, i explained them as solid BO disadvantages.
On January 03 2012 14:33 flamewheel wrote: OKAY EIGHTY PERCENT DONE
Im totally expecting your next post to say 95% done! but I have to take the dog for a walk and I have to go the DMV to get my license renewed, I'll finish up tomorrow!
On January 03 2012 14:42 ffreakk wrote: I am not sure what you are implying. 12-Hatch vs 9-Pool Speed, do both players do it blind? Yet it's still considered BO disadvantage (a 80% guaranteed loss, even, from what i know). So both players did their build w/o scouting information and 1 happens to hard-counter the other, i called that a BO disadvantage. Why does it showcase my bias? Unless you look at my Icon, went "Lololol Bisu fanboy" and typed what you did?
Both players have a lot more information at the "fast third" and "5fac timing push" stage, compared to the "12 hatch" and "9 pool speed" stage, so yes, while those are also "blind" everything is blind at that level.
On January 03 2012 14:42 ffreakk wrote: I am not sure what you are implying. 12-Hatch vs 9-Pool Speed, do both players do it blind? Yet it's still considered BO disadvantage (a 80% guaranteed loss, even, from what i know). So both players did their build w/o scouting information and 1 happens to hard-counter the other, i called that a BO disadvantage. Why does it showcase my bias? Unless you look at my Icon, went "Lololol Bisu fanboy" and typed what you did?
Both players have a lot more information at the "fast third" and "5fac timing push" stage, compared to the "12 hatch" and "9 pool speed" stage, so yes, while those are also "blind" everything is blind at that level.
People like to use the word "blind" to diminish the value a win from a player who picked a strategy that counters another strategy (see: kiante v puppykiller grudgematch). Appending the word "blind" to Bogus's strategy but not to Bisu's when they had similar amounts of information when choosing to do what they did is a form of bias. Bogus's choice of strategy was just as blind as Bisu's, but Bogus had the advantage. If Bogus had gone for a safe third Bisu would have taken the advantage with a "blind" fast 3rd. Even if you didn't consciously mean it that way (I doubt you did), the way your sentence is structured is the result of bias.
On January 03 2012 14:42 ffreakk wrote: I am not sure what you are implying. 12-Hatch vs 9-Pool Speed, do both players do it blind? Yet it's still considered BO disadvantage (a 80% guaranteed loss, even, from what i know). So both players did their build w/o scouting information and 1 happens to hard-counter the other, i called that a BO disadvantage. Why does it showcase my bias? Unless you look at my Icon, went "Lololol Bisu fanboy" and typed what you did?
Both players have a lot more information at the "fast third" and "5fac timing push" stage, compared to the "12 hatch" and "9 pool speed" stage, so yes, while those are also "blind" everything is blind at that level.
I assumed you have watched the game. Maybe i missed it, so would you tell me what information Bogus had when he plopped down his 5 Fac? And what information did Bisu get when he decided to go for the fast 3rd?
@xxpack
If Bogus had scouted the fast 3rd, it would not be a "BO disadvantage" but a counter. I only append the word "Blind" to Bogus build because he was the one that happened to counter his opponent, something that usually require scouting information. But perhaps you just like to argue. Since i don't remember a single piece of fact brought up by you in the last few pages, only unhealthy criticism in order to bring down other posters. At least "people" like me bothered to discuss the actual game, at the same time admit to possible fanboyism.
On January 03 2012 14:42 ffreakk wrote: I am not sure what you are implying. 12-Hatch vs 9-Pool Speed, do both players do it blind? Yet it's still considered BO disadvantage (a 80% guaranteed loss, even, from what i know). So both players did their build w/o scouting information and 1 happens to hard-counter the other, i called that a BO disadvantage. Why does it showcase my bias? Unless you look at my Icon, went "Lololol Bisu fanboy" and typed what you did?
Both players have a lot more information at the "fast third" and "5fac timing push" stage, compared to the "12 hatch" and "9 pool speed" stage, so yes, while those are also "blind" everything is blind at that level.
People like to use the word "blind" to diminish the value a win from a player who picked a strategy that counters another strategy (see: kiante v puppykiller grudgematch). Appending the word "blind" to Bogus's strategy but not to Bisu's when they had similar amounts of information when choosing to do what they did is a form of bias. Bogus's choice of strategy was just as blind as Bisu's, but Bogus had the advantage. If Bogus had gone for a safe third Bisu would have taken the advantage with a "blind" fast 3rd. Even if you didn't consciously mean it that way (I doubt you did), the way your sentence is structured is the result of bias.
Err no.
Bisu's build was disadvantageous and so it's implied it's blind. Why would you deliberately choose a weak build?
Bogus' build was advantageous and so it is not clear whether this is due to good scouting and decision making or luck, appending "blind" to the description clarifies this.
I think I would have put Bisu higher. His games are looking really good even though his record isn't perfect. I hope he drops his game against CJ though...
Can we close this and do a new thread? It's going to be confusing in the future if people have to remember that the current PR discussion starts on page 48 or whatever.
OSL cred my ass. Soulkey did so much better than Jangbi. The rest of the rank was fairly good, although i keep feeling that Jaedong might be a little high.
On January 04 2012 07:54 Release wrote: OSL cred my ass. Soulkey did so much better than Jangbi. The rest of the rank was fairly good, although i keep feeling that Jaedong might be a little high.
Thanks for the PR flamewheel I actually agree with all of your picks (as much as it pains me to see bisu that low) Although I could argue that baby should be placed above fantasy but nevertheless it's really good
Anyways, not sure if this has been discussed previously or not but would you consider adding an extra small section (similar to the CBNS section) regarding the players that didn't make the PR and were pretty disappointing? I think it would be a little entertaining to read a little bit about the bad players of the month. Example, for this month my picks would be soo sea and jaehoon
Sea hasn't so much been disappointing as he has been shoe-horned into a match he's not really that strong in right now. Ideally he should be used to snipe Terrans. But, admittedly, his TvP is his second best, and as I pointed out, Team 8 is full of Terran killers and lacking Protoss killers. No matter how you look at it, Jaedong is by far and away their strongest vP player and his record slipped badly in 2011 -- from a whopping 81% wins ZvP in 2010 all the way down to 54% wins in 2011.
Basically, Team 8 is overrated. Which bodes poorly for SCBW as a whole since Team 8 getting a sponsor would be a sign of renewed support towards progaming.
Let's bump this thread a bit, half of this month has passed so we need some speculation about the next PR! So who's hot? Well the top 3 is still running very strong, and at this point it seems pretty likely that the top 3 will remain the same, and probably in the same order aswell, since most of the players lower ranked players of last months ranking haven't been doing too peachy. Fantasy is 3-0 showing strong TvT and beating Zero, Flash is 2-0 and made his zerg opponents crap their pants and surrender, and Stats is 2-0 aswell. Only one I can see threatening them is Bisu, who is 3-1 at the moment, but losing to hon_sin after a failed 2fact doesn't bode well for his rank.
Then what? Pretty much all the other players have done pretty awful this round. Soulkey is 2-1 granted, so he'll probably get a lower rank again this month. Hydra is 0-3, Stork is 1-2 with losses to Movie (not known for his PvP) and Crazy-hydra (not known for his ZvP, btw. he has beaten light and stork this month, not in convincing games, but still), Jaedong is 1-3 with a loss to Canata, embarassing loss to Flash, decently played loss against effort and a win against modesty and so forth. All of these guys need to show something in the second half to be worthy of a rank imho.
Who's hot? Best is 3-1 showcasing Bisu-esque PvZ, and he also beat Horang2 on the 31st. Lost to Last, but i'm still confident that he knows how to PvT. Last is still unbeaten this season, he'll definitely enjoy a rank next month. In my opinion, Bogus has also been playing splendidly, so I figure he's gonna jump up from the cbnc. Effort is also 2-0 beating JD and JB, which might push him towards a rank. Also the game against JD showed no slipups in The alien zergs zvz, JD tried hard. Lastly, Jaehoon is 3-1 but against rather mediocre opposition. He did beat Horang2 but THOSE games didn't give much to chew on.
I won't even try to make a suggested ranking at this point since everything is so open, but I want your thoughts! Go ahead.
On January 17 2012 04:14 FlaShFTW wrote: FlaSh, Stats. 1/2 as usual.
Jaedong should be knocked off. Seriously he's losing left and right. *puts up Jaedong riot shield* Crazy-Hydra should be up there. At least that's how I feel. Ending Light's TvZ streak is good enough.
Sea should be in the honorable mentions for his SECOND WIN!!! :D
Bisu should be dropped some spots.
Last should be moved up. (BTW who IS Last? Like did he have a different name before? because this is the first time I've ever heard of him)
lolwut. that game was more light losing it than anything else. all CH did was pick the correct opening build order and then rally lings to a non-ling-tight wall.
also at this point unless effort loses more than he wins for the rest of the month, he will probably need to be on the ranking.
On January 17 2012 04:14 FlaShFTW wrote: FlaSh, Stats. 1/2 as usual.
Jaedong should be knocked off. Seriously he's losing left and right. *puts up Jaedong riot shield*
Crazy-Hydra should be up there. At least that's how I feel. Ending Light's TvZ streak is good enough.
Sea should be in the honorable mentions for his SECOND WIN!!! :D
Bisu should be dropped some spots.
Last should be moved up. (BTW who IS Last? Like did he have a different name before? because this is the first time I've ever heard of him)
Last was just bad before.
He wasn't bad, he had two really good Dream League season (especially last season where he went 30-6) but he was never able to make that step until possibly now. If he can keep this up he'll be big
Bogus and Last deserves a spot on the PR this month. These 2 guys have seemingly carried STX above SKT and credit should be given.
The part I've been taking notice about Stats is his expansion timings, his playstyle is more economic victory centered which I like. Especially vZ situations, it almost rivals Bisu's timing and game sense in when to put down a third and secure it. In PvP, Stats is quite good at taking the initiative to expand first and having the clutch defense deflect the aggression with ease. Honestly, I'd like to see a Stork/Jangbi vs Stats game to see how things would turn out to be.
Flash being Flash, innovative as ever with spot-on overlord scout path intercepting and dodging (like he remembers when and where a scouting OL would arrive EXACTLY at each possible spawn/build). It's like Flash gains a 'trait' or new ability every week or something. Man or machine?
On January 04 2012 08:44 Soft`Soap wrote: Thanks for the PR flamewheel I actually agree with all of your picks (as much as it pains me to see bisu that low) Although I could argue that baby should be placed above fantasy but nevertheless it's really good
Anyways, not sure if this has been discussed previously or not but would you consider adding an extra small section (similar to the CBNS section) regarding the players that didn't make the PR and were pretty disappointing? I think it would be a little entertaining to read a little bit about the bad players of the month. Example, for this month my picks would be soo sea and jaehoon
thoughts?
Bad? I question you actually watching the games for Sea and Jaehoon or are you just claiming their bad because of their previous rep and record?
Kinda leaning towards Fantasy as #2 over Stats. Part of the influence of Stats > Fantasy last month was surely how embarrassingly ugly the Fanta-Last game was. But if the ranking was drawn up right now, I'd have to say that Fantasy and Stats were pretty neck-and-neck last month and Fantasy has done slightly more to prove himself this month.
But, there's still a lot of time for that to change. Stats has only played 2 games so far, and Fantasy only 3.
Last... is actually starting to look like more than just a TvT sniper. I think this month he'll HAVE to get the benefit of the doubt, especially with so many of the usual suspects not cutting the mustard.
On January 17 2012 15:36 Archers_bane wrote: CH win over Light was not inspiring or good brood war at all, please dont use that as a factor for putting him over JD.
On January 17 2012 14:10 Mortality wrote: Kinda leaning towards Fantasy as #2 over Stats. Part of the influence of Stats > Fantasy last month was surely how embarrassingly ugly the Fanta-Last game was. But if the ranking was drawn up right now, I'd have to say that Fantasy and Stats were pretty neck-and-neck last month and Fantasy has done slightly more to prove himself this month.
But, there's still a lot of time for that to change. Stats has only played 2 games so far, and Fantasy only 3.
Last... is actually starting to look like more than just a TvT sniper. I think this month he'll HAVE to get the benefit of the doubt, especially with so many of the usual suspects not cutting the mustard.
I dont see why there should be any changes as both have been looking equally dominating, and to me stats has faced the toughest competition of the two, afaik the only game where fantasy really was challenged was vs skyhigh and when you compare that to stats vs bogus which is argueably best game and definitly best PvT of the season.
To me stats has faced better competition so there's no real point in ranking fantasy higher just because he is fantasy though if fantasy plays an amazing game vs kal or FBH later today my opinion could change since the difference is maginal.
On January 17 2012 14:10 Mortality wrote: Kinda leaning towards Fantasy as #2 over Stats. Part of the influence of Stats > Fantasy last month was surely how embarrassingly ugly the Fanta-Last game was. But if the ranking was drawn up right now, I'd have to say that Fantasy and Stats were pretty neck-and-neck last month and Fantasy has done slightly more to prove himself this month.
But, there's still a lot of time for that to change. Stats has only played 2 games so far, and Fantasy only 3.
Last... is actually starting to look like more than just a TvT sniper. I think this month he'll HAVE to get the benefit of the doubt, especially with so many of the usual suspects not cutting the mustard.
I dont see why there should be any changes as both have been looking equally dominating, and to me stats has faced the toughest competition of the two, afaik the only game where fantasy really was challenged was vs skyhigh and when you compare that to stats vs bogus which is argueably best game and definitly best PvT of the season.
To me stats has faced better competition so there's no real point in ranking fantasy higher just because he is fantasy though if fantasy plays an amazing game vs kal or FBH later today my opinion could change since the difference is maginal.
Stats vs Bogus was already on the previous rank and taken into consideration when I rated them as relatively equal on the previous ranking.
Since last rank, Stats has faced Baby (who is undeniably a strong player all around, BUT is known for being relatively weak in TvP when compared with his TvT and especially his TvZ, AND is in the middle of a slump -- Baby being one of those players who's known for being streaky) and Shy (2-7 in the past 12 months vs P in standard leagues).
Fantasy has faced SkyHigh, who admittedly is not the same TvT monster that he was a year ago, but seems to at least partially have his mojo back right now (his recent record doesn't really show it, but at least consider who he's been playing), Zero (who admittedly is slumping hard this season, but still ranks among the most scary Zergs a Terran could possibly face) and Classic (not a win of much significance).
Since the start of the season? Yeah, maybe Stats has had a slightly harder list of opponents (although not by THAT much, for example Soo would have been considered a significant win last season, but right now his ZvP is on a six loss streak and frankly LOOKS mediocre as well -- the reason is that Soo was too heavily reliant on one particular strategy, hello hydra bust, and was not able to keep up with the current metagame).
Bogus and Last both make a good case, so far this round anyway.
Of the current 10, the following are in immanent jeopardy of dropping their spot: Baby, Jaedong, Stork, JangBi. Stork is the only one of the bunch to post a win so far (thanks to FINALLY playing a Terran).
Btw, I assume the next PR will be out at the end of the round, and not simply the month? It seems to me it has to be done by rounds at this point, lest Khan will only have 3 games played while SKT1 will have 6 games played if you cut off at the end of January.
Wait seriously? SKT1 will have 6 matches when Khan has 3? How does that work?! That almost forces it to be done by round, I should think.
As far as I'm concerned, Baby has already dropped his rank. Too hard to justify putting him over so many others who have passed him. JD might get to keep his on who he's lost to (well, Canata... but other than that...) provided a number of factors go his way. Stork also could squeak in, but a lot will depend on his performance to come. Jangbi was low enough on the last rank that, honestly, with all these other players failing hard (Hydra, I'm looking at you) he still has a decent chance of keeping his rank, again if he can step up his game.
On January 18 2012 10:42 KicKDoG wrote: me kickdog loves flash! hope he continues a while longer! I bet he will go sc2 eventually! And if he does he will just conquer.
WTF why would you do that in PR Not exactly sure how I'd rank them, but...at the moment, I'm thinking... Flash, Last, Stats, Fantasy, Effort, Kal, Bogus, Crazy-Hydra, Best, Bisu, Stork If not, this would be the list I'd choose from. Really going to have trouble ranking those 5, but we'll have to wait and see. We still have some games left till next month. Only reason I have Best down there is because of his terrible PvT (PvP). It's as if he traded his PvT for PvZ or something. It's terrible. The last two games really worries me as well. Hopefully this won't be the beginning of a mini-slump for him.
On January 18 2012 10:51 Mortality wrote: Wait seriously? SKT1 will have 6 matches when Khan has 3? How does that work?! That almost forces it to be done by round, I should think.
As far as I'm concerned, Baby has already dropped his rank. Too hard to justify putting him over so many others who have passed him. JD might get to keep his on who he's lost to (well, Canata... but other than that...) provided a number of factors go his way. Stork also could squeak in, but a lot will depend on his performance to come. Jangbi was low enough on the last rank that, honestly, with all these other players failing hard (Hydra, I'm looking at you) he still has a decent chance of keeping his rank, again if he can step up his game.
Quoting myself. Oh snap.
After last night, I simply do not see Baby over Bogus without some serious divine intervention in Baby's favor.
I also think there's a stronger case for Fantasy > Stats now. I'll grant to anyone that Bogus played an amazing game of SC, but I also felt that Stats made a few poor moves that were very costly, particularly in his choice to expand between himself and Bogus after Bogus had already expanded between them (meaning that the distance between Bogus's defensive line and Stats's 4th base was very small.
And Flash. Dear god. How can anyone possibly dethrone him?
Flash, Stats, Fantasy, Last, EffOrt, Kal, Bogus -> Bogus definitely deserves #6 as of now. I'm sure he'll move up eventually with every game he plays. Last's TvZ is still in question, considering Action was having a great day. Action plays well, he's just inconsistent. Last should have won this game though, considering the map is Jade. There's a reason we don't see zergs get sent out on this map. So he moves down to #4. Stats vs Bogus (5-1), not surprised Stats lost this. His last game vs Bogus was extremely close and he made huge mistakes throughout the whole game. Same with JD vs Flash as well, had JD taken Flash out in the game they played, Flash will still stay #1 and JD still does not deserve a spot in PR. Only reason Stats is still above Fantasy is the fact that he played stronger players and managed to win them, unlike Fantasy (ZerO mini-slump, and TvZ on jade, SkyHigh's TvT definitely doesn't look as strong as it used to be) with only loss to Last. It's too bad we didn't get to see Calm play. He had a great chance against Wooki on CR (not to mention that's the map where both players always get sent out...), and I'd love to see Calm back on PR.
On January 19 2012 05:47 Eun_Star wrote: Only reason Stats is still above Fantasy is the fact that he played stronger players and managed to win them, unlike Fantasy (ZerO mini-slump, and TvZ on jade, SkyHigh's TvT definitely doesn't look as strong as it used to be) with only loss to Last. It's too bad we didn't get to see Calm play. He had a great chance against Wooki on CR (not to mention that's the map where both players always get sent out...), and I'd love to see Calm back on PR.
By that logic, Flash has played a bunch of scrubs and a slumping JD this season. Bogus has been absolutely dominant this season, especially in TvP, which makes him an easy #2 behind Flash.
Zero's ZvT during a slump is still top 5 on the planet no matter how you cut it. I would still consider it #2 in the world right now. SkyHigh's recent record doesn't do him justice: look at who he's played and how he's performed. Movie is a strong PvTer. Last has been on a tear, ripping through every Terran sent his way.
And I think Stats's opponent list is overstated. He's only played 3 games against Protoss killers (Effort, Bogus x2). Baby struggles (and fails) to stay even in TvP and Sea has been getting torn up by Protoss left and right. Soo is something of a joke right now -- his ability to demolish Protoss was highly dependent on metagame.
Overall, Stats's opponent list has only been marginally stronger. He's lost twice versus Fantasy's one loss. Fantasy's one loss was more ugly, but many of his wins have been brutal curb stomps. Stats performed well in the SPL playoffs last season... compared to Fantasy making the OSL finals and losing in an intense 3-2 final. Looking more long term, Fantasy went 53-30 (64%) in the past 12 months making the OSL finals back-to-back; Stats went 37-24 (61%) having a lower win percentage with vastly fewer games played and has yet to make it past the Ro16 in a Starleague in his entire career. Comparing ELO, Fantasy is higher vsT, vsZ, vsP and overall.
Fantasy could decide to suck tomorrow. He could lose, he could play like fail, get kicked off the PR and get relegated to the B-team. If you've been following PR threads over the past few years then you'll know that despite professing a like for Fantasy, I'm the first person to criticize him when he sucks.
Right at this moment all indicators point to Fantasy being the #2 player in the world. Why the clear #2 should be denied #2 on the PR is beyond me.
On January 19 2012 05:47 Eun_Star wrote: Only reason Stats is still above Fantasy is the fact that he played stronger players and managed to win them, unlike Fantasy (ZerO mini-slump, and TvZ on jade, SkyHigh's TvT definitely doesn't look as strong as it used to be) with only loss to Last. It's too bad we didn't get to see Calm play. He had a great chance against Wooki on CR (not to mention that's the map where both players always get sent out...), and I'd love to see Calm back on PR.
By that logic, Flash has played a bunch of scrubs and a slumping JD this season. Bogus has been absolutely dominant this season, especially in TvP, which makes him an easy #2 behind Flash.
He did play "scrubs" (I'd be more careful using this word if I were you) but he didn't lose. He dominated his opponents--I'm not just talking in terms of statistics. His plays are near flawless, and you really can't argue his spot as #1 Like I said, Bogus will eventually move up. I wouldn't be surprised if he takes #1/#2. Give him two or three more games, he'll take #2 easily. Bogus has been playing absolutely fantastic. Fantasy & Stats is hard to decide, but I just valued Stats' wins more between them two.
I'd consider moving Fantasy up to #2, Bogus to #3, and bump Stats to #4 based on results right now. Terran seems to catch no breaks, except when Flash and these two guys play. Bogus at the start of the season couldn't get the results, but that has changed.
This is all tentative though. Bogus still needs to prove his TvT. I won't hold it against him if he doesn't get a Terran in the next four games, but if he does he better show good results. Same with Zerg to some extent. Flash, Fantasy, and Bogus are all excellent at TvP but only Flash and Fantasy have proven themselves in TvT. I'd change my #3 for something in the bottom half if he shows another blunder in that matchup,
As of right now I think I'd go: Flash Fantasy Stats Bogus
After that it becomes murky. I think Stats is demonstrating himself to be more well-rounded to Bogus at the moment, although maybe his PvT is a bit weaker than his PvZ and especially his PvP, which looks really scary right now.
the zergs this round are not performing... zerg season shall arise again with jaedong claiming back his rightful throne at top 3 even if jaedong isnt playing well now thats just a minislump that he probably would get out from, and theres still his april curse to get away from(unless this slump of sorts is his curse)
Flash is seriously back into god mode, he is looking very solid. Stats might be the top shape protoss at the moment as they all seem a little shaky. Similarly to the zergs, I thought Hydra / effort / Jaedong would be pwning non stop but they have slowed down quite a bit. I am just wondering how team8 is playing so horribly considering their team looks rather decent.
I wouldn't say that Protoss players all look shaky. Actually, Protoss is probably doing the best overall. The key difference is that Terran has 3 players who are owning it up on the leaders board, but Protoss actually has the most number of players with a positive record (10). Zerg actually has the second most (8), but 5 of those are only +1 and 4 of them have only played 1 game.
In particular, I don't think Stats looks shaky, however, even if his loss the other day was to Bogus, I felt that the strategic decision to expand between himself and Bogus was an enormous mistake, and I was already leaning towards Fantasy > Stats going into that match. Making an occasional strategic error does not make a player "shaky" though.
On January 19 2012 05:47 Eun_Star wrote: Only reason Stats is still above Fantasy is the fact that he played stronger players and managed to win them, unlike Fantasy (ZerO mini-slump, and TvZ on jade, SkyHigh's TvT definitely doesn't look as strong as it used to be) with only loss to Last. It's too bad we didn't get to see Calm play. He had a great chance against Wooki on CR (not to mention that's the map where both players always get sent out...), and I'd love to see Calm back on PR.
By that logic, Flash has played a bunch of scrubs and a slumping JD this season. Bogus has been absolutely dominant this season, especially in TvP, which makes him an easy #2 behind Flash.
He did play "scrubs" (I'd be more careful using this word if I were you) but he didn't lose. He dominated his opponents--I'm not just talking in terms of statistics. His plays are near flawless, and you really can't argue his spot as #1 Like I said, Bogus will eventually move up. I wouldn't be surprised if he takes #1/#2. Give him two or three more games, he'll take #2 easily. Bogus has been playing absolutely fantastic. Fantasy & Stats is hard to decide, but I just valued Stats' wins more between them two.
Hmm, you honestly think Bogus has the potenetial to usurp Flash at the moment?
No one will take #1 until the beat Flash in a BoX -- JangBi did it once and he got his one time PR#1, but I would be surprised if it were to happen in 2012 at all.
That is... if we ever see an OSL. ;/
As an aside, I don't really understand all this Bogus hype right now. 5-4 on the season with some nice wins versus good toss players. Why so excited?
Wooki has had some nice games this month, minus the tragic cannon rush game. Heh.
On January 21 2012 03:10 Gescom wrote: No one will take #1 until the beat Flash in a BoX -- JangBi did it once and he got his one time PR#1, but I would be surprised if it were to happen in 2012 at all.
That is... if we ever see an OSL. ;/
As an aside, I don't really understand all this Bogus hype right now. 5-4 on the season with some nice wins versus good toss players. Why so excited?
Wooki has had some nice games this month, minus the tragic cannon rush game. Heh.
Because he played an amazing tvz vs soulkey with some of the sickest tvp seen from someone not called flash or fantasy?
You dont sound like someone who's watched his games
Bogus has had the most difficult opponent list of anyone by a considerable margin. Just to give you an idea how difficult, he is currently ELO PEAKING at 2205 despite all the losses at the start of the season, which should give you a relatively unbiased gauge for the strength of his opponents. Also, his loss to Soulkey was one of the best games of the season so far; the only match-up in any doubt is his TvT.
On January 21 2012 03:10 Gescom wrote: As an aside, I don't really understand all this Bogus hype right now. 5-4 on the season with some nice wins versus good toss players. Why so excited?
He's played some very strong opponents and he still looks really strong even when he loses. Did you watch his game vs stats?
On January 21 2012 03:10 Gescom wrote: No one will take #1 until the beat Flash in a BoX -- JangBi did it once and he got his one time PR#1, but I would be surprised if it were to happen in 2012 at all.
That is... if we ever see an OSL. ;/
As an aside, I don't really understand all this Bogus hype right now. 5-4 on the season with some nice wins versus good toss players. Why so excited?
Wooki has had some nice games this month, minus the tragic cannon rush game. Heh.
On January 21 2012 03:10 Gescom wrote: No one will take #1 until the beat Flash in a BoX -- JangBi did it once and he got his one time PR#1, but I would be surprised if it were to happen in 2012 at all.
That is... if we ever see an OSL. ;/
As an aside, I don't really understand all this Bogus hype right now. 5-4 on the season with some nice wins versus good toss players. Why so excited?
Wooki has had some nice games this month, minus the tragic cannon rush game. Heh.
I haven't watched the games but he's actally 4-0 this month and 3-0 since last PR. You can't count his results too much from last month for this one :p
It's simply a feeling you get from watching his games. He shows power, and that makes him good for this ranking. He's a very good example of proof that pure win/loss statistics aren't everything. His loss to Soulkey was about as good of a loss as possible - that is our opinion of Bogus rose even as he typed gg. His TvP is second only to God and the Crown Prince themselves.
His TvT though... uh, yeah. Still, besides this matchup, this guy is oozing with an aura of power that is only eclipsed by the other two top Terrans and probably Stats. At least several of us think so based on watching his games, your opinion may differ. Though I will say again that if he makes a big mistake in either TvZ or especially TvT he will lose a lot of his dominating image, as being a one match wonder rarely gets you into the top half of a ranking.
Hmm. So after last nights games I'm thinking something like 1. Flash. duh 2. Fantasy. Looks strong in all MU's, his game against Stork was beautiful, etc.
3. Here's where it gets Fuzzy. Last should have a top 3 spot based on his overall performances this season, but then he lost to Action. I'm thinking Soulkey. 4. Last, derp 5. Effort, his recent games have been incredibly solid, and in his only loss he put up a terrific showing vs Flash. I honestly could see him going up to no.3/no.4 6. Stork. Doing good but not necessarily great. His game vs Fanta showed some holes. 7. Stats. He lost twice, but the losses were both because of a single weird mistake. He's still playing strong 8. Bisu. Meh. I'm honestly not sure with Bisu 9. JD. I'm sorry. That game vs Flying deserves some kind of punishement. Or maybe a reward? Because he won? His, Bisu's, and Stats positions are pretty interchangeable imo. 10. I'm honestly not sure here. Bogus was a sure fire bit for top 5 just a week ago, but now he's been floundering. Maybe Baby?
1. FlaSh. Don't even argue this one. 2. Drones. Celebration of the biggest fail in Starcraft history. 3. Stats. His game were dumb mistakes. He's still the strongest Protoss out there right now. 4-10. dont care. order ur list of stork, bisu, fantasy, jaedong, effort, last.
Flash and Fantasy are a lock at this point, even if we are waiting until the end of the round instead of just the end of the month. Flash has played relatively weak competition, but has dominated in accordance with the skill level we expect from him. No surprises, no upsets, not even close. The only match-up where he hasn't fully "renewed" his lease as #1 is TvT, which he has only played once so far this season. But, considering we are talking about the greatest TvTer ever, I don't think there's any point discussing that.
Although the skill gap from Flash to Fantasy is pretty obvious, Fantasy's position on the rank is actually closer to Flash than one would think. Fantasy is now a hair over 65% in the past 12 months, and is the most accomplished tournament player during that time. Fantasy may decide to troll us and lose a bunch of games in February, but as of right now he is indisputably the #2 player in the world.
After Flash and Fantasy it's soooo hard to rate players. In my mind I sort of have tiers:
Tier 1: Bisu - the best PvZ in the world bar none (and among the top 2 vZ players, along with Flash), and arguably the best PvP in the world right now (certainly ELO thinks so). I think concerns over his PvT are a bit overstated, but I definitely don't think he's ready to face Flash/Fantasy/Bogus right now. Stats - Other than Flash and Fantasy, the most well-rounded strong player at the moment. He's also the other candidate for best PvP in the world right now, and his PvT is at least as good as Bisu's, but although his PvZ is very strong, it is clearly way behind Bisu's. Everybody's is. Last - I am impressed by how unbelievably solid his TvP is as well as his TvT. But I still have questions about his TvZ. He needs to prove his strength in that match-up before I label him a big dog.
Tier 2: Bogus - the proof that statistics aren't everything. His TvP is jaw dropping and his TvZ also looks very solid, but there are serious concerns over his TvT. Bogus and Last are starting to form a credible replacement to the Calm/Kal duo (circa 2009/2010) over in the STX house, but Bogus isn't quite ready to carry STX on his back, and I'm not sure Last is either. Soulkey - displaying himself as probably the most well-rounded Zerg right now, although that may say as much about the lack of Zerg strength as it does about Soulkey who has shown some flaws that Flash/Fantasy/Tier 1 simply have not. Also, questions remain over Soulkey's power as a tournament player. Effort - Perhaps a better resume than Soulkey, with his only losses this season to Flash, Stats and Bisu, not to mention that Effort has proven himself in tournaments. On the flip side, a lot of Effort's play has been dependent on clever strategies (e.g. the fake 4th base ploy vs Jangbi followed by the ling break) to make up for the fact that his mechanics are not yet up to the same level they used to be.
Tier 3: Best Stork Baby
All 3 of these players have had a fairly ugly round so far, but a fairly solid season over all, and have played some games (this current round) that deserve respect. In particular for Stork, that game against Fantasy probably would have been won on any map less Terran favoring. The defense against Fantasy's vulture control was simply fantastic.
Jaedong is noticeably absent from my list. This is the first time I've written him off since... uhm, this is probably the first time I've ever written him off. Maybe that month like 3 years ago where he dropped in ODT to Backho I might have written him off, not sure, but yeah. Jaedong has been barely breaking even. His ZvT that used to be some dominant has seemed lackluster, his ZvZ has improved from where it was 6 months ago, but I'm feeling a bit reserved right now about saying things like "JvZ." And his ZvP... I kept arguing that people were not giving him credit, but that game against Flying was an ugly, ugly, ugly game of Starcraft. And I'm not just talking about RAMPUUUUUUUUUU either. There were so many times that Flying would lose sairs to scourge even though he had a sair fleet of around 8 or so built up and the scourge would often come only 2 at a time. Not to mention that zeal/archon is absolutely not the way to fight lurkers. Flying needed to mix in dragoons. Any competent PvZ player would have absolutely wrecked Jaedong that game.
But Bogus? Why give him #6, because he is the 3rd best TvP player? His TvT is nothing. It went from being a joke in his first two games, to being notably below average in his loss about Iris. That's hardly an improvement in my view of his TvT matchup. Remember, I was ready to proclaim him #3 overall if he proved himself in TvT. He did no such thing - quite the opposite. No one on the current presumptive PR nominees has such a single bad matchup as Bogus does (although Last is unproven in TvZ).
I'd put:
6. Neo.g_Soulkey 7. Effort
I think the PR should just be these 7 guys, honestly. Because as much as Bogus' vT is a complete failure, everyone else makes big mistakes too.
Stork is waning in his PvP that he started the season so strong in. His game versus Fantasy started out ridiculously good (indeed, nearly perfect anti-Vulture control, against the freaking Vulture Terrorist). But there are several mistakes that cost him the game, and if he did not do one or two of them he may have taken it. He had High Templar sniped. He had almost no Stasis, thanks to some EMPs (one EMP that hit two Arbiters could have meant Stork would have taken a decisive battle). And at the very end he lost like 5-6 Zealots over mines pointlesslu, when every unit at that point was so precious. Ugh, I was raging this whole game not at Stork but at the fact that 3 Base Terran does not run out of units, and once the 4th is up theres no need to worry about economy ever. Fantasy played nearly perfect, but I still cannot fathom how Terran is statistically at a disadvantage in this matchup. It really makes no sense when they don't need to expand.
Baby has done nothing*, and deserves no place on the PR. *Nice lift/land micro?
Best, a low spot, I guess. Yay for PvZ, wow, since when did Best ever want this matchup and nothing else? Terran gets 3rd base before you get 3rd base... so you decide to stay on 3 bases the whole game. Is this what the coaches teach to respond to 3 bases off 1 Fact?
8. Bogus 9. Stork 10. Best or Jaedong
Best is more of a one hit wonder than Bogus right now, so he should be ranked lower. I guess Bogus should be over Stork, but barely. I think Stork still has very good PvT (not his peak from years past of course), and his PvZ has gotten results. His PvP is unquestionably better than Bogus' TvT though. Likewise, Bogus' TvZ seems good, albeit mostly untested. And while I will say that Bogus' TvP is better than any one of Stork's matchups, I just cannot say that it fully compensates for TvT embarrassments. But he went 3-0 over good competition off of his strong TvP, and he should be rewarded for this.
Probably Best for #10, but Jaedong... is Jaedong! It just seems so wrong to remove him from the PR for the first time in... many years (3? 4?).
Hopefully Stork plays in the remaining 4 (yes 4) games for Khan in the next two weeks and goes at least 3-1 so he can prove he deserves a spot again. Also with this plethora of Khan games to come, JangBi could easily steal a low spot (and theoretically so could Turn).
And I really want Bogus to do well too, so I hope he gets a couple victories in his final 3 games for the round. And Last could vary wildly as well.
SKT1 only has 1 more game left, but Fantasy is #2 no matter what, imo. Bisu is not quite safe at #3 yet. Stats still has two games to prove himself and in conjunction with a Bisu loss he could get #3 depending on how both look.
My tiers weren't organized in an exact order. Only 1 and 2 are fixed.
I'm not sure I'd be so brutal on Bogus. First of all, "third best TvP" doesn't accurately sum up the fact that I would lay money down on Bogus over ANY Protoss in the world in a bo5. Which means that he also has one of the strongest match-ups of anybody on the ranking. And while, yes, his TvT is looking defective, it's not exactly Casy TvP level defective, and it's not like he has a history of failure in that match-up.
Jaedong's historical place on the PR doesn't mean he should be given a free pass. Honestly, he's been GETTING the free pass for almost the past year. Last month I kept pointing things out like "Jd's loss to Snow was really more Snow's win" and highlighting Snow's strong points, but the honest truth is that JD keeps making little mistakes that pile on, and if you watched his game against Flying... pay close attention to his FPview and tell me with a straight face that you'd still put JD on this rank if you knew nothing about him prior to the start of this season.
I don't recall if Flamewheel has indicated so, but I assume it'll be a PR based on the whole round, and not the month. As of the end of January, SKT1 has played 6 games since the last PR and Khan has only played 3. Without an OSL to further gauge players, it's not really a good idea to judge players with such wild games played disparity, imo. So if it is done this way, all players including Jaedong have chances to change our opinions of them.
Re: Mortality
Yeah, Bogus is a tough one to rank. 'Nuff said.
I agree Jaedong shouldn't get a free pass, but the other #10 possibilities such as Best, Jangbi, and Baby still have to prove they are better than him, and all three have been iffy recently. We shall certainly see!
The last time Jaedong was not on the PR was July 2007. That was so long ago, that Savior was #5 that month. Yowza!
i like baby a lot more than bogus, but despite the season record, bogus's play has definitely looked stronger. people who quote 5-4 have to understand that that includes two absolutely insane losses, one against soulkey and one against stats. if he had won both of those games i would say he should be #2 or #3 on PR. i honestly think he should be ranked above last
i don't know what to do with jaedong and baby right now. T8 are actually starting to win but it's not because those two are playing brilliantly.
i might even say 1. Flash 2. Fantasy 3. Bisu 4. Bogus 5. Stats 6. Last 7. Soulkey 8. Effort 9. Stork 10. Kal
Bogus at #4 is way too high. His TvT is not solid enough to allow him to be in the upper half of the ranking right now, not when players like Stats are looking more well-rounded.
Kal for #10 is an interesting choice that I briefly considered. Had he played a little better vs Last I would have been inclined to place him in Tier 3.
I'm not sure if there's going to be a Power Rank this month since we missed a week of PL due to the Korean Holiday but here's the records of PR-relevant players for January.
there's no nice way of putting it out there except, jaedong sucks now. whenever i watch him play, it feels like watching savior post 3.3, uninspiring and without the passion he once had.
On February 02 2012 02:44 GTR wrote: there's no nice way of putting it out there except, jaedong sucks now. whenever i watch him play, it feels like watching savior post 3.3, uninspiring and without the passion he once had.
I'm thinking it's more he literally has no practice partners. There's only 8 dudes on the team and practicing every matchup successfully is probably a crapshoot. This goes for the entirety of team 8.
On January 17 2012 18:52 bgx wrote: Jaedong mistakes were far worse than Bisu's. Frankly i wouldnt even put him in top10, effort would be better. JD is only okaish in zvz and thats all.
Don't forget how volatile this game really is. The difference between victory and defeat can be a matter of placing a sunken few seconds late or having your bunker placing slightly off. Fact is, Jaedong dominated last year on ZvT and a couple of losses from well-executed timing attacks is quite not enough to prove anything. He is 1-2 on the matchup this year and the only victory was pretty convincing.
Now that he might have figured how to not die to Protoss mid-game pressure, I think his worst matchup is actually ZvZ . That 'constipated' game tells how far ahead he was in the game, not losing straight up while lacking such a huge force in the field for a considerably long time.
Jaedong is lacking practice partner and he is having a lot of pressure. He was dominating every terran a couple of months ago, he WILL be back in form soon enough.
On February 02 2012 00:07 red4ce wrote: I'm not sure if there's going to be a Power Rank this month since we missed a week of PL due to the Korean Holiday but here's the records of PR-relevant players for January.
You are counting some games from Round 1. January 1st games were the final games of Round 1 and Flamewheel took them into account for the most recent PR. Round 2 ends of February 11th, so I expect Flamewheel to put out the new PR within days of that date, but he has yet to indicate his plans.
I don't think there's much of an excuse for Jaedong. He's not being bad mechanically or look out of practice or getting blindsided by spectacular strategies. Throughout this season he has played some overall spotty BW.
On February 02 2012 08:02 baubo wrote: I don't think there's much of an excuse for Jaedong. He's not being bad mechanically or look out of practice or getting blindsided by spectacular strategies. Throughout this season he has played some overall spotty BW.
well all we can hope for is to have a bisu-esque revival
On February 02 2012 06:02 Ubersturmfuhrer wrote: Don't forget how volatile this game really is. The difference between victory and defeat can be a matter of placing a sunken few seconds late or having your bunker placing slightly off. Fact is, Jaedong dominated last year on ZvT and a couple of losses from well-executed timing attacks is quite not enough to prove anything. He is 1-2 on the matchup this year and the only victory was pretty convincing.
No it wasn't. I'm really sick of people pretending that Jaedong's game against Mind was good. Please explain what aspect of Jaedong's play in that game you found "convincing."
On February 02 2012 06:02 Ubersturmfuhrer wrote: Don't forget how volatile this game really is. The difference between victory and defeat can be a matter of placing a sunken few seconds late or having your bunker placing slightly off. Fact is, Jaedong dominated last year on ZvT and a couple of losses from well-executed timing attacks is quite not enough to prove anything. He is 1-2 on the matchup this year and the only victory was pretty convincing.
No it wasn't. I'm really sick of people pretending that Jaedong's game against Mind was good. Please explain what aspect of Jaedong's play in that game you found "convincing."
I would say his defeat of Mind was quite solid; (although on the other hand Mind clearly didn't have a backup plan when the valks went down). Losing to Flash? Not a problem. Getting wrecked, absolutely destroyed, by Canata? That's embarrassing. Jaedong's simply not looking good right now: I would take any top Terran and most of the strong PvZers (Movie, Stork, Bisu, maybe Snow and Stats) over him in a Bo5. ZvZ is a little trickier - I suspect he'd still win a Bo5 against anybody except maybe EffOrt and Hydra, but I wouldn't count on him winning [random Proleague game] the way we used to (though he's only lost there to EffOrt).
Some of it's the reduced schedule: the worst player he's faced this year is M18M, who was a decent prospect for KHAN before going to ACE. But he's got that bad loss to Canata, and he "should have" beaten Snow, and he looked helpless against BeSt... I dunno, I just find it hard to defend his play recently.
On January 17 2012 18:52 bgx wrote: Jaedong mistakes were far worse than Bisu's. Frankly i wouldnt even put him in top10, effort would be better. JD is only okaish in zvz and thats all.
Don't forget how volatile this game really is. The difference between victory and defeat can be a matter of placing a sunken few seconds late or having your bunker placing slightly off. Fact is, Jaedong dominated last year on ZvT and a couple of losses from well-executed timing attacks is quite not enough to prove anything. He is 1-2 on the matchup this year and the only victory was pretty convincing.
Now that he might have figured how to not die to Protoss mid-game pressure, I think his worst matchup is actually ZvZ . That 'constipated' game tells how far ahead he was in the game, not losing straight up while lacking such a huge force in the field for a considerably long time.
Oh come on!
First of all, JD's ZvZ is probably his best right now. I don't just say that from the statistics, but from watching the games. His games against Roro and Modesty *almost* had me thinking of JvZ and his game against Effort was a solid build order loss where I actually thought JD's play was slightly better, but not quite enough to make up for the build.
JD's ZvT admittedly doesn't draw from the best sample since his losses vs Canata and Flash were on ZvT graveyard Ground Zero and his victory over Mind was on Outlier, which is a horrible, horrible map for Terran, which is why Terran is almost never sent out on it.
And regarding the game against Flying, the only reason JD won is that Flying played absolutely terribly. Zero micro on his corsairs (how many times did we see 2 scourge without support pick off a corsair in the middle of a group of 8? that should NEVER happen), trying to face ling/lurk with pure zeal/archon. Uhm, hello? Seriously, watch JD's FPview, in particular at the part where JD is trying to defend his 5th base. That game was an ugly, ugly scrapfest.
One thing that caught my eye regarding Jaedong is that not only he, but most other zergs have been doing pretty poorly this season. Last season zergs kept crushing protosses with hydrabuilds, this season Protoss seems to have regained some of their strength in that matchup. Look at n.Die_Soo, Killer, Hydra, Zero. Every one of them has been doing poorly this season. Soulkey is the only one who has a nice record out of the zerg players, and Effort is doing just alright I guess.
I think the Power Rank should this month be like this: 1. Flash-he's Flash. 2. Pantaji-solid play in all matchups. TvT comeback against sKyHigh. 3. Bisu-weak opponents, but bringing results home. 4. Neo.G Soulkey-the only zerg that could. Lost to Best, but Best rapes zerg now in a Bisu-esque style. 5. Bogus-his play is really good, but his results are only mediocre. Always plays agains strong opponents. 6. Stats-not looking as solid as he did last month-expanding to terran's push line?(vs Bogus) 7. Effort-was doing all he could vs. Flash. 8. Last-I doubt his record will hold, cause of his TvZ(Only 1 game played thou). 9. Kal-mixed results but showing that he might be coming back to his former glory. 10. Firebathero-because...fuck yeah, firebathero! See Firebathero vs Zero on Ground Zero...if he played more(what the hell are Ace coaches doing these days) I'm sure he'd be higher.
I don't understand how can anyone rank Bogus in the top 5 - I'm honestly not even convinced he belongs to PR at all T_T. His 'top' matchup of TvP, while good, isn't nearly as incredible as Bisu's PvZ - I'd say it's pretty comparable to Last's TvP or Light's vZ, and his other matchups are incredibly mediocre. That TvT loss vs Iris was painful to watch... :S I could see him somewhere down at the bottom, mostly because quite honestly there aren't many players that are doing awesome right now in general, but ranking him above Bisu or Stats and comparing him to Fantasy? No way...
On February 02 2012 23:20 Sethronu wrote: I don't understand how can anyone rank Bogus in the top 5 - I'm honestly not even convinced he belongs to PR at all T_T. His 'top' matchup of TvP, while good, isn't nearly as incredible as Bisu's PvZ - I'd say it's pretty comparable to Last's TvP or Light's vZ, and his other matchups are incredibly mediocre. That TvT loss vs Iris was painful to watch... :S I could see him somewhere down at the bottom, mostly because quite honestly there aren't many players that are doing awesome right now in general, but ranking him above Bisu or Stats and comparing him to Fantasy? No way...
While i mostly agree with you (that Bogus, imho, needs to prove himself a little more to be able to climb to the top half of the PR), the bolded part seems to imply that Last's vP and Light's vZ are on the same level. Im positive that Light, along with Flash, Bisu, and an in-form Jaedong are among the top Zerg-slayers of all time, and definitely the top of this generation. There was a period in time (not a short one) where Light (to me) looked about as powerful as Flash was vZ. He looked absolutely indomitable. Last's vP, however, have a LOT left to prove, imho.
On February 02 2012 23:20 Sethronu wrote: I don't understand how can anyone rank Bogus in the top 5 - I'm honestly not even convinced he belongs to PR at all T_T. His 'top' matchup of TvP, while good, isn't nearly as incredible as Bisu's PvZ - I'd say it's pretty comparable to Last's TvP or Light's vZ, and his other matchups are incredibly mediocre. That TvT loss vs Iris was painful to watch... :S I could see him somewhere down at the bottom, mostly because quite honestly there aren't many players that are doing awesome right now in general, but ranking him above Bisu or Stats and comparing him to Fantasy? No way...
Honestly, pretty much everyone sucks right now. The opposite case can be made for Bogus. Bogus has a 3-1 score against strong opponents, where as say, Bisu has a 5-1 which does not include any real threats - and when Bogus lost to Iris, he still looked a lot better than Bisu looked in his loss against Hon_sin.
On February 02 2012 23:20 Sethronu wrote: I don't understand how can anyone rank Bogus in the top 5 - I'm honestly not even convinced he belongs to PR at all T_T. His 'top' matchup of TvP, while good, isn't nearly as incredible as Bisu's PvZ - I'd say it's pretty comparable to Last's TvP or Light's vZ, and his other matchups are incredibly mediocre. That TvT loss vs Iris was painful to watch... :S I could see him somewhere down at the bottom, mostly because quite honestly there aren't many players that are doing awesome right now in general, but ranking him above Bisu or Stats and comparing him to Fantasy? No way...
Honestly, pretty much everyone sucks right now. The opposite case can be made for Bogus. Bogus has a 3-1 score against strong opponents, where as say, Bisu has a 5-1 which does not include any real threats - and when Bogus lost to Iris, he still looked a lot better than Bisu looked in his loss against Hon_sin.
I might be biased, but Bisu was rather unlucky to get the Spider Mine dragged onto the probes at such an unopportune time in his game vs hon_sin (other goons walked by just fine and didnt trigger the mine). Before that, he held hon_sin's push handily and was pretty ahead, until the mine that is.
On February 02 2012 23:20 Sethronu wrote: I don't understand how can anyone rank Bogus in the top 5 - I'm honestly not even convinced he belongs to PR at all T_T. His 'top' matchup of TvP, while good, isn't nearly as incredible as Bisu's PvZ - I'd say it's pretty comparable to Last's TvP or Light's vZ, and his other matchups are incredibly mediocre. That TvT loss vs Iris was painful to watch... :S I could see him somewhere down at the bottom, mostly because quite honestly there aren't many players that are doing awesome right now in general, but ranking him above Bisu or Stats and comparing him to Fantasy? No way...
Honestly, pretty much everyone sucks right now. The opposite case can be made for Bogus. Bogus has a 3-1 score against strong opponents, where as say, Bisu has a 5-1 which does not include any real threats - and when Bogus lost to Iris, he still looked a lot better than Bisu looked in his loss against Hon_sin.
I might be biased, but Bisu was rather unlucky to get the Spider Mine dragged onto the probes at such an unopportune time in his game vs hon_sin (other goons walked by just fine and didnt trigger the mine). Before that, he held hon_sin's push handily and was pretty ahead, until the mine that is.
Can we say the same about Bogus vs Iris?
That mine killed 5 probes. Bogus was never ahead in the game, but he never made the weird engagements Bisu did in his game as well.
On February 02 2012 23:20 Sethronu wrote: I don't understand how can anyone rank Bogus in the top 5 - I'm honestly not even convinced he belongs to PR at all T_T. His 'top' matchup of TvP, while good, isn't nearly as incredible as Bisu's PvZ - I'd say it's pretty comparable to Last's TvP or Light's vZ, and his other matchups are incredibly mediocre. That TvT loss vs Iris was painful to watch... :S I could see him somewhere down at the bottom, mostly because quite honestly there aren't many players that are doing awesome right now in general, but ranking him above Bisu or Stats and comparing him to Fantasy? No way...
...what the hell are you talking about? Light has easily the 2nd best TvZ in the world. Last doesn't even have a 50% win rate in TvP. I don't understand this comparison at all.
On February 02 2012 23:20 Sethronu wrote: I don't understand how can anyone rank Bogus in the top 5 - I'm honestly not even convinced he belongs to PR at all T_T. His 'top' matchup of TvP, while good, isn't nearly as incredible as Bisu's PvZ - I'd say it's pretty comparable to Last's TvP or Light's vZ, and his other matchups are incredibly mediocre. That TvT loss vs Iris was painful to watch... :S I could see him somewhere down at the bottom, mostly because quite honestly there aren't many players that are doing awesome right now in general, but ranking him above Bisu or Stats and comparing him to Fantasy? No way...
Honestly, pretty much everyone sucks right now. The opposite case can be made for Bogus. Bogus has a 3-1 score against strong opponents, where as say, Bisu has a 5-1 which does not include any real threats - and when Bogus lost to Iris, he still looked a lot better than Bisu looked in his loss against Hon_sin.
I might be biased, but Bisu was rather unlucky to get the Spider Mine dragged onto the probes at such an unopportune time in his game vs hon_sin (other goons walked by just fine and didnt trigger the mine). Before that, he held hon_sin's push handily and was pretty ahead, until the mine that is.
Can we say the same about Bogus vs Iris?
That mine killed 5 probes. Bogus was never ahead in the game, but he never made the weird engagements Bisu did in his game as well.
No way that was 5 probes.. Off the top of my head, Bisu didn't pull probe to defend the T push to natural at all, so he had 2 bases worth of probes. After holding that push, Bisu's main is mined quite a bit, and he pulled a LOT of probes down to his natural. I distinctly remember there being pretty low saturation in Bisu's main. I'm not looking to justify a loss here. Bisu lost and that was it, but there were factors that i wish to consider for the PR is all.
And I actually remember that his attempts at chipping at the push w Reaver was pretty good. Sure there was a bad mine-drag w the Goons, but there isn't much one can do when Terran sieges up at nice positions on Siege Hills. There's a reason why Stork said that map is terrible vT at the beginning of the season (i know SPL record says otherwise though).
I don't understand the nature of the criticism of Bogus. I'd favor his TvP over any Protoss in the world right now. It's a little soon to use the word "S-rank" but if he continues to show such dominance in TvP against strong opponents for another month or so then I'm going to start thinking it. A little more "proof" is necessary, but by definition, if you are the favorite against ANY possible opponent you MUST be considered S-rank.
His TvZ is also very solid. I don't understand why the word mediocre is being used. Maybe he doesn't "stand out" as a TvZer, but that's only because there are so many TvZers who are curb-stomping every Zerg in sight right now. With JD and Zero both giving poor results, the top 4 or 5 TvZers are basically free to walk over any Zerg they want. That *may* change during OSL since right now Terran are avoiding certain maps, but Zerg is also avoiding the map Jade and they will probably start avoiding Ground Zero giving the awful TvZ stats there (awful for Zerg, of course).
The only match-up that is of concern for Bogus is of course TvT. I'm not going to try to defend him there.
On February 02 2012 18:21 Xpeijz wrote: One thing that caught my eye regarding Jaedong is that not only he, but most other zergs have been doing pretty poorly this season. Last season zergs kept crushing protosses with hydrabuilds, this season Protoss seems to have regained some of their strength in that matchup. Look at n.Die_Soo, Killer, Hydra, Zero. Every one of them has been doing poorly this season. Soulkey is the only one who has a nice record out of the zerg players, and Effort is doing just alright I guess.
And my question to you would be, what's your point? At the end of last season, Zerg had a huge metagame edge over Protoss. Right now the metagame has changed a bit, in part because of maps, in part because Zerg are having trouble with the current Protoss timings.
So what are you trying to say? If Zerg is lacking power, then I'd expect the Power Rank to show that. There's no affirmative action here, no need for senseless quotas. When Zerg returns to power they will do well on the Power Rank again.
Right now, if the lack of Zerg power is going to help anybody on the ranking, it should be Soulkey and Effort, as they are the only two zergs who are persevering, dare I say thriving, in the current conditions.
Effort winning 67% of course is "just alright." Especially given the new format, which is forcing more meetings between higher caliber opponents, I think Effort deserves more credit than that (6 games against elite players...).
And anyway, it's not like this is true imbalance. If you watch the games, the Zerg players are making definite mistakes when they lose.
On February 03 2012 05:25 Mortality wrote: Effort winning 67% of course is "just alright." Especially given the new format, which is forcing more meetings between higher caliber opponents, I think Effort deserves more credit than that (6 games against elite players...).
I agree with everything in this post except this. Effort has had particularly bad luck (or maybe CJ is just that good at sending him against the opposing team's best, given that he's the closest thing they have to an ace), but by and large we are not seeing more games between strong players than we did when ace matches still existed. At this point last season, Flash had played Best twice, Light twice, Calm, Soulkey, and Stork, just to pick out some of the better opponents. Jaedong had played Light twice, Hydra twice, Soulkey, Zero, Stats, and Stork. The only way you can even get Effort to 6 is if you count Jangbi as an elite PvZer, which I think is in question.
On February 03 2012 05:25 Mortality wrote: Effort winning 67% of course is "just alright." Especially given the new format, which is forcing more meetings between higher caliber opponents, I think Effort deserves more credit than that (6 games against elite players...).
I agree with everything in this post except this. Effort has had particularly bad luck (or maybe CJ is just that good at sending him against the opposing team's best, given that he's the closest thing they have to an ace), but by and large we are not seeing more games between strong players than we did when ace matches still existed. At this point last season, Flash had played Best twice, Light twice, Calm, Soulkey, and Stork, just to pick out some of the better opponents. Jaedong had played Light twice, Hydra twice, Soulkey, Zero, Stats, and Stork. The only way you can even get Effort to 6 is if you count Jangbi as an elite PvZer, which I think is in question.
I'm not sure how you're determining "at this point"? Trying to go by round won't work: fewer teams. Trying to go by date won't work: this year the league started later with a more relaxed schedule.
The only thing comparable is to look at the actual games.
Of those, four are A-class or better (Horang2, Light, Jaedong, EffOrt); Jaehoon (clearly) and Dear (apparently) are also their teams' best players in the P-favored MU. great, Modesty, and soO are poor wins
Again we have four A-class+ (BeSt, Stork, Soulkey, Snow). RorO was WeMade's top Z; HiyA was OZ's only good T. soO, Modesty, and Ruby were bad (Ruby less so than the other two).
b) 9 matches (in which Flash played): n.Die_soO, BeSt, HiyA, RorO, Ruby, Stork, Modesty, Neo.G_Soulkey, Snow, Light (9-1)
Light makes 5 out of the 10 A+ players, but overall the records remain comparable. I'm sure 7 sets and no ace would have diluted the schedule, but by reducing the games it seems like overall the number of "good opponents" stays reasonably close.
On February 02 2012 23:20 Sethronu wrote: I don't understand how can anyone rank Bogus in the top 5 - I'm honestly not even convinced he belongs to PR at all T_T. His 'top' matchup of TvP, while good, isn't nearly as incredible as Bisu's PvZ - I'd say it's pretty comparable to Last's TvP or Light's vZ, and his other matchups are incredibly mediocre. That TvT loss vs Iris was painful to watch... :S I could see him somewhere down at the bottom, mostly because quite honestly there aren't many players that are doing awesome right now in general, but ranking him above Bisu or Stats and comparing him to Fantasy? No way...
Honestly, pretty much everyone sucks right now. The opposite case can be made for Bogus. Bogus has a 3-1 score against strong opponents, where as say, Bisu has a 5-1 which does not include any real threats - and when Bogus lost to Iris, he still looked a lot better than Bisu looked in his loss against Hon_sin.
I might be biased, but Bisu was rather unlucky to get the Spider Mine dragged onto the probes at such an unopportune time in his game vs hon_sin (other goons walked by just fine and didnt trigger the mine). Before that, he held hon_sin's push handily and was pretty ahead, until the mine that is.
Can we say the same about Bogus vs Iris?
No, you're being very biased and greatly underestimating Bogus. As much as I hate to admit it, Bisu played completely horribly that game. There is no doubt he underestimated hon_sin and lost, there was nothing good about his game at all
It really shows how much of a "team" Samsung Khan is right now for ranking 2nd without anyone really being discussed in the PR. IMO the most depth of any team in the PL right now.
On February 02 2012 23:20 Sethronu wrote: I don't understand how can anyone rank Bogus in the top 5 - I'm honestly not even convinced he belongs to PR at all T_T. His 'top' matchup of TvP, while good, isn't nearly as incredible as Bisu's PvZ - I'd say it's pretty comparable to Last's TvP or Light's vZ, and his other matchups are incredibly mediocre. That TvT loss vs Iris was painful to watch... :S I could see him somewhere down at the bottom, mostly because quite honestly there aren't many players that are doing awesome right now in general, but ranking him above Bisu or Stats and comparing him to Fantasy? No way...
Honestly, pretty much everyone sucks right now. The opposite case can be made for Bogus. Bogus has a 3-1 score against strong opponents, where as say, Bisu has a 5-1 which does not include any real threats - and when Bogus lost to Iris, he still looked a lot better than Bisu looked in his loss against Hon_sin.
I might be biased, but Bisu was rather unlucky to get the Spider Mine dragged onto the probes at such an unopportune time in his game vs hon_sin (other goons walked by just fine and didnt trigger the mine). Before that, he held hon_sin's push handily and was pretty ahead, until the mine that is.
Can we say the same about Bogus vs Iris?
That mine killed 5 probes. Bogus was never ahead in the game, but he never made the weird engagements Bisu did in his game as well.
No way that was 5 probes.. Off the top of my head, Bisu didn't pull probe to defend the T push to natural at all, so he had 2 bases worth of probes. After holding that push, Bisu's main is mined quite a bit, and he pulled a LOT of probes down to his natural. I distinctly remember there being pretty low saturation in Bisu's main. I'm not looking to justify a loss here. Bisu lost and that was it, but there were factors that i wish to consider for the PR is all.
And I actually remember that his attempts at chipping at the push w Reaver was pretty good. Sure there was a bad mine-drag w the Goons, but there isn't much one can do when Terran sieges up at nice positions on Siege Hills. There's a reason why Stork said that map is terrible vT at the beginning of the season (i know SPL record says otherwise though).
Just watched the VOD to confirm again in case I mixed it up. We see the Supply counter going from 55 to 48, with a dragoon dying as well. Because Dragoons take up 2 supply and Probes 1, I surmise no more than 5 probes were killed. EDIT: In addition Bisu was still 10 supply ahead. By no means was he behind after that mine.
Flash - Undefeated Fantasy - 5-0 in Jan. Last - 4-1 in Jan. (Only loss of the season) Neo.G_Soulkey - 4-1 in Jan. Bogus 4-1 in Jan. Bisu 5-1 in Jan. (awful opp.) Stats 2-2 in Jan. (still good overall record) EffOrt 2-1 in Jan. (good overall record+pretty good opp.) Kal 3-2 in Jan. BeSt 3-3 in Jan. (3 game losing streak+lost to Kal)
Eh, Last's "sub 50% winrate vP" is irrelevant as he's 3-0 vP this season, with very convincing wins vs sHy, BeSt, and Kal. Bogus looked ridiculous vs Iris lol, Iris made so many mistakes but Bogus just can't TvT at all - and his 'best' matchup is still not on the level of Bisu's vZ, either.
On February 03 2012 10:15 Brobe wrote: Last - 3-1 in Round 2 Bogus 3-1 in Round 2
Fixed those two stats for you. While your January stats are correct, it is important to remember that it more of Round 2 PR, and that January 1st games were counted in the last PR (although we won't forget what the players showed in these games, the record itself has already been counted).
Ummm... I wasn't really suggesting that Jaedong should make the PR because of this. I don't think he should, although there aren't many good contenders for the later spots. I actually pretty much agree with all the points you made (I thought Effort was something like 5-4 and the games that I saw weren't very convincing, sorry about that). Just that there was talk about Jaedongs form in general and I pointed out that the shift from last seasons ZvP-style might be making his slump even deeper than it would "normally" (whatever that means in this context) be. So yes, I think this should count as a plus towards Soulkey and Effort.
Well, I was starting to lean towards Bisu as a possible #3 candidate, but I think that's out the window. Although that was a clever play by Tyson, I feel like Bisu should have realized something was wrong that Tyson was displaying only 1 gate and no robo at that point. Moving out at that time was a lapse in judgment.
I feel like #3 has to go to either Stats or Soulkey at this point. Stats over Bisu will probably upset the Bisu fanboys, but I just feel like he's been proving himself against tougher competition.
At that point things get muddied. #5... could it be Last? I'm tempted to say he's earned it, but I want to see him prove himself at TvZ. Just because he is looking solid in 2 matches doesn't mean that he's solid in all 3. Well, if we're going by results alone, then he'd be top 4 no question (Last being 8-1, +7, I would probably place below Soulkey 9-3, +6, on the grounds that Soulkey has proven himself against all 3 races).
That would put Bisu at #6.
Effort is a maybe at #7. His loss to Mini puts a damper on my excitement for a higher place on the ranking, although in fairness Effort played well that game. It's just that Mini also played really well and rode the current metagame advantage.
Bogus I can then see at #8. It's hard to argue him higher with his TvT in the shape it is, but it's kind of stupid to put him lower when he's demolished such strong competition.
Stork can follow at #9. You could argue that he deserves better, I suppose, but his wins this round really haven't been against the best and when you combine that with the way he petered out as R1 wore on... well, I have hesitations about putting him above the guys I listed higher.
I don't know who deserves 10. Best and Kal both losing makes it harder. And even if Jaedong won, he's still only 2-3 on the round and his 2 wins were a 5 pool and one of the scrappiest scrapfests ever. I have serious reservations about giving it to a map sniper (e.g. Brave). Turn is a possibility.
I'd actually trust him overall than BeSt or Kal right now, especially as BeSt has traded his ability to own terran for an ability to own zerg and still lol at other match-ups
On February 05 2012 17:18 Mortality wrote: Bogus I can then see at #8. It's hard to argue him higher with his TvT in the shape it is, but it's kind of stupid to put him lower when he's demolished such strong competition.
Could you enlighten me what exactly makes Bogus so bad at TvT that he can't be considered higher?
On February 05 2012 17:18 Mortality wrote: Bogus I can then see at #8. It's hard to argue him higher with his TvT in the shape it is, but it's kind of stupid to put him lower when he's demolished such strong competition.
Could you enlighten me what exactly makes Bogus so bad at TvT that he can't be considered higher?
Well he's hardly played it at all lately, but he's on a 3 game slide and the last two were Airforce Ace players.
On February 05 2012 17:18 Mortality wrote: Bogus I can then see at #8. It's hard to argue him higher with his TvT in the shape it is, but it's kind of stupid to put him lower when he's demolished such strong competition.
Could you enlighten me what exactly makes Bogus so bad at TvT that he can't be considered higher?
Well he's hardly played it at all lately, but he's on a 3 game slide and the last two were Airforce Ace players.
I guess that's a valid argument, but similar accusations could be pointed towards other higher ranked players. Unlike a certain Protoss, Bogus never had an advantage he botched in TvT.
On February 05 2012 17:18 Mortality wrote: Bogus I can then see at #8. It's hard to argue him higher with his TvT in the shape it is, but it's kind of stupid to put him lower when he's demolished such strong competition.
Could you enlighten me what exactly makes Bogus so bad at TvT that he can't be considered higher?
Did you watch his 3 TvT games this season? Words cannot describe, you just must see it for yourself.
I again find myself mostly agreeing with Mortality's assessment of the 10 hottest players right now. The order of Effort-Bogus-Stork is iffy, but for now that's a fair ranking (we could see Stork and Bogus up to 2 more times, so who knows how they prove themselves).
#10 is a big ? right now. Best is out of the contention as his team is done and he didn't quite prove himself. Besides that, I guess the final games of the round will determine it, and I really have no idea who I'm leaning toward.
On February 05 2012 17:18 Mortality wrote: Bogus I can then see at #8. It's hard to argue him higher with his TvT in the shape it is, but it's kind of stupid to put him lower when he's demolished such strong competition.
Could you enlighten me what exactly makes Bogus so bad at TvT that he can't be considered higher?
Did you watch his 3 TvT games this season? Words cannot describe, you just must see it for yourself.
You see, that's just it. I'm biased and I'd like to change that. If you could point towards certain flaws in decision making, micro, or overall macro, I'd be satisfied.
Bogus vs Iris wasn't all that terrible, but he needed to prove himself after the two TvT losses in Round 1. But he could not do so, and in my opinion it's because he didn't try to compensate for any advantage Iris had, while Iris always tried to better himself in every aspect of the game.
Early game:
At the start he lost an SCV-SCV fight when scouting, when instead he should have gone into the main when it was obvious he would lose. So he didn't get to scout inside Iris' base. Though he knows that Iris didn't 1 Rax FE like he did, so Iris likely has the tech and army advantage (which he does). But Bogus doesn't try to fix this in any way, and floats his rax giving him even less of an army (Iris landed it, and made more Marines, smartly trying to capitalize on his army advantage). Iris lands the rax and makes even MORE marines in Bogus' natural while Bogus just floats there. One player is clearly trying to get the most out of their money here, and it's not Bogus.
Bogus' Wraiths save him, and he uses them to snipe SCVs. But Iris just smashes through his army. When all is said and done and both have lost many units, Iris is ahead by only 7 supply at 11:20. Exactly two minutes later, Iris is ahead by 30 supply. Iris smartly used high ground and had much better macro, while Bogus' Wraiths all dissolved. Iris is on a third, Bogus is not. Bogus carelessly loses a few tanks to mines outside his own base. Bogus then drops the main, killing only two SCVs. He gets some good Vulture harass at the 3rd, and gets his own third under way.
Iris gets a 4th, and denies Bogus' 4th with a Vulture. Bogus could have done that same, but completely abandoned Drop play. If you don't have Wraiths, you need drops in TvT. Iris knows this, and successfully does drop harassment. This is the key lesson of the game, if you don't have Wraiths, you need drops in TvT. Bogus now finds himself at the mercy of Iris' plentiful drop ships, which really damage his main. Bogus really dropped the ball on this. Wraiths, or Drops ships, this is modern TvT. Bogus made a few Wraiths early on, but then mostly stopped. He made a couple dropships, but then mostly stopped. Iris had a bigger economy and army for most of the game, and you need mobility to subvert this. Instead Bogus ceded economy, army, and mobility to Iris and it was all over.
Ok, so Bogus did pretty bad with his 1 Rax FE against a 1 base timing. What was Bogus' attempt at nearly the opposite? (when he did 1 base against 1 Fac FE):
Yeah. Not pretty. Actually, pretty bad.
Then this game:
Piano goes 1 Fact FE, Bogus goes 111 one base. Piano comes with superior vulture numbers (off of an FE vs 1 base??) and kills Bogus' ground army, while Bogus' doesn't micro his Wraith and has it kill a floating Rax while it could have been harassing SCVs in Piano's Goliathless base. Oops. Before you know it, Piano's earlier expo kicks in and his superior army defeats Bogus (who ultimately only killed a few SCVs with Wraiths).
In the first two games of the season (Leta, Piano) Bogus proves he can't play 1 base. So he tries to 1 Rax FE, and proves he can't handle defend it or properly play a mobile Terran.
Maybe he'll do better with a mirror build match, but so far he just can't handle this matchup.
On February 06 2012 02:25 FlaShFTW wrote: FlaSh #1. As usual. I didn't know it was possible for a 8 minute TvT without some1 just bumrushing the other ^.^
Stats maybe back up to #2? Maybe #3?
Bisu/Fanta/BeSt/Jaedong still up there as usual.
TvT is not so boring these days. The era of map-split-into-mass-BC is over. Sure that sometimes does happen still, but it's not common anymore.
No way is anyone other than Fantasy #2. Just no way.
And Best is on a 4 game loss streak and is struggling horribly against competent T/P opponents. Admittedly the players he's losing to are under consideration for a PR spot, but that's all the more reason why someone like Kal or Turn... or even Jaehoon... deserve the spot over him.
I'll give Best credit for his PvZ (never thought I'd say that), but until he gets his act together in PvT/PvP he's not PR worthy.
On February 06 2012 02:25 FlaShFTW wrote: FlaSh #1. As usual. I didn't know it was possible for a 8 minute TvT without some1 just bumrushing the other ^.^
Stats maybe back up to #2? Maybe #3?
Bisu/Fanta/BeSt/Jaedong still up there as usual.
There's no way fantasy isn't #2 right now. He even has the same record as Flash this month with roughly equivalently skilled opponents (stork TvP SkyHigh TvT for fanta, JD and Effort for Flash)
On February 06 2012 02:25 FlaShFTW wrote: FlaSh #1. As usual. I didn't know it was possible for a 8 minute TvT without some1 just bumrushing the other ^.^
Stats maybe back up to #2? Maybe #3?
Bisu/Fanta/BeSt/Jaedong still up there as usual.
TvT is not so boring these days. The era of map-split-into-mass-BC is over. Sure that sometimes does happen still, but it's not common anymore.
No way is anyone other than Fantasy #2. Just no way.
And Best is on a 4 game loss streak and is struggling horribly against competent T/P opponents. Admittedly the players he's losing to are under consideration for a PR spot, but that's all the more reason why someone like Kal or Turn... or even Jaehoon... deserve the spot over him.
I'll give Best credit for his PvZ (never thought I'd say that), but until he gets his act together in PvT/PvP he's not PR worthy.
I'm up for amending TLPD to make all losses to Flash not affect a player's overall record.
On February 06 2012 02:25 FlaShFTW wrote: FlaSh #1. As usual. I didn't know it was possible for a 8 minute TvT without some1 just bumrushing the other ^.^
Stats maybe back up to #2? Maybe #3?
Bisu/Fanta/BeSt/Jaedong still up there as usual.
TvT is not so boring these days. The era of map-split-into-mass-BC is over. Sure that sometimes does happen still, but it's not common anymore.
No way is anyone other than Fantasy #2. Just no way.
And Best is on a 4 game loss streak and is struggling horribly against competent T/P opponents. Admittedly the players he's losing to are under consideration for a PR spot, but that's all the more reason why someone like Kal or Turn... or even Jaehoon... deserve the spot over him.
I'll give Best credit for his PvZ (never thought I'd say that), but until he gets his act together in PvT/PvP he's not PR worthy.
I'm up for amending TLPD to make all losses to Flash not affect a player's overall record.
On February 06 2012 02:25 FlaShFTW wrote: FlaSh #1. As usual. I didn't know it was possible for a 8 minute TvT without some1 just bumrushing the other ^.^
Stats maybe back up to #2? Maybe #3?
Bisu/Fanta/BeSt/Jaedong still up there as usual.
There's no way fantasy isn't #2 right now. He even has the same record as Flash this month with roughly equivalently skilled opponents (stork TvP SkyHigh TvT for fanta, JD and Effort for Flash)
Skyhigh is not good at tvt anymore, at all. He was very, very, very good until the 09-10 proleague ended in September of 2010. Since then he has gone 4-11 in TvT.
On February 06 2012 02:25 FlaShFTW wrote: FlaSh #1. As usual. I didn't know it was possible for a 8 minute TvT without some1 just bumrushing the other ^.^
Stats maybe back up to #2? Maybe #3?
Bisu/Fanta/BeSt/Jaedong still up there as usual.
There's no way fantasy isn't #2 right now. He even has the same record as Flash this month with roughly equivalently skilled opponents (stork TvP SkyHigh TvT for fanta, JD and Effort for Flash)
Skyhigh is not good at tvt anymore, at all. He was very, very, very good until the 09-10 proleague ended in September of 2010. Since then he has gone 4-11 in TvT.
That record is deceptive. If you consider the caliber of competition and watch the games in question, he should still be regarded as at least a "low A" in TvT.
Record alone isn't everything. I remember when people were saying JD couldn't ZvT anymore back in late 2010 because he was 3-7 in his last 10 games... ALL of which were against Flash or Light played on maps that had a Terran bias. *head hits desk*
On February 06 2012 02:25 FlaShFTW wrote: FlaSh #1. As usual. I didn't know it was possible for a 8 minute TvT without some1 just bumrushing the other ^.^
Stats maybe back up to #2? Maybe #3?
Bisu/Fanta/BeSt/Jaedong still up there as usual.
TvT is not so boring these days. The era of map-split-into-mass-BC is over. Sure that sometimes does happen still, but it's not common anymore.
No way is anyone other than Fantasy #2. Just no way.
And Best is on a 4 game loss streak and is struggling horribly against competent T/P opponents. Admittedly the players he's losing to are under consideration for a PR spot, but that's all the more reason why someone like Kal or Turn... or even Jaehoon... deserve the spot over him.
I'll give Best credit for his PvZ (never thought I'd say that), but until he gets his act together in PvT/PvP he's not PR worthy.
I'm up for amending TLPD to make all losses to Flash not affect a player's overall record.
Now Effort isn't doing as badly!
can we do that for every game that flash plays just to auto=win? even if he loses?
On February 06 2012 02:25 FlaShFTW wrote: FlaSh #1. As usual. I didn't know it was possible for a 8 minute TvT without some1 just bumrushing the other ^.^
Stats maybe back up to #2? Maybe #3?
Bisu/Fanta/BeSt/Jaedong still up there as usual.
There's no way fantasy isn't #2 right now. He even has the same record as Flash this month with roughly equivalently skilled opponents (stork TvP SkyHigh TvT for fanta, JD and Effort for Flash)
Skyhigh is not good at tvt anymore, at all. He was very, very, very good until the 09-10 proleague ended in September of 2010. Since then he has gone 4-11 in TvT.
That record is deceptive. If you consider the caliber of competition and watch the games in question, he should still be regarded as at least a "low A" in TvT.
Record alone isn't everything. I remember when people were saying JD couldn't ZvT anymore back in late 2010 because he was 3-7 in his last 10 games... ALL of which were against Flash or Light played on maps that had a Terran bias. *head hits desk*
Yeah... Skyhigh played a monstrous TvT against some one this season.. I think it was against Mind.
Edit: yeah it was Mind. He also looked incredible against Fanta the first half of the game.
That's because somebody forgot to tell Flash that bonjwa mode is supposed to come to an end and a new generation is supposed to eventually take over. Flash is unimpressed by the new generation.
On February 06 2012 02:25 FlaShFTW wrote: FlaSh #1. As usual. I didn't know it was possible for a 8 minute TvT without some1 just bumrushing the other ^.^
Stats maybe back up to #2? Maybe #3?
Bisu/Fanta/BeSt/Jaedong still up there as usual.
There's no way fantasy isn't #2 right now. He even has the same record as Flash this month with roughly equivalently skilled opponents (stork TvP SkyHigh TvT for fanta, JD and Effort for Flash)
Skyhigh is not good at tvt anymore, at all. He was very, very, very good until the 09-10 proleague ended in September of 2010. Since then he has gone 4-11 in TvT.
That record is deceptive. If you consider the caliber of competition and watch the games in question, he should still be regarded as at least a "low A" in TvT.
Record alone isn't everything. I remember when people were saying JD couldn't ZvT anymore back in late 2010 because he was 3-7 in his last 10 games... ALL of which were against Flash or Light played on maps that had a Terran bias. *head hits desk*
The competition:
Skyhigh beat Reality, Mind, Really, and Fantasy once each.
Skyhigh lost to Light, Fantasy, Sharp, Baby, Sea, Honsin, Bogus, Mind, and Flashx2.
This competition is hardly comparable to JD playing flash and light eighty times inn a row and you know it. An A-teamer should have done better at his specialty matchup.
On February 06 2012 02:25 FlaShFTW wrote: FlaSh #1. As usual. I didn't know it was possible for a 8 minute TvT without some1 just bumrushing the other ^.^
Stats maybe back up to #2? Maybe #3?
Bisu/Fanta/BeSt/Jaedong still up there as usual.
There's no way fantasy isn't #2 right now. He even has the same record as Flash this month with roughly equivalently skilled opponents (stork TvP SkyHigh TvT for fanta, JD and Effort for Flash)
Skyhigh is not good at tvt anymore, at all. He was very, very, very good until the 09-10 proleague ended in September of 2010. Since then he has gone 4-11 in TvT.
That record is deceptive. If you consider the caliber of competition and watch the games in question, he should still be regarded as at least a "low A" in TvT.
Record alone isn't everything. I remember when people were saying JD couldn't ZvT anymore back in late 2010 because he was 3-7 in his last 10 games... ALL of which were against Flash or Light played on maps that had a Terran bias. *head hits desk*
The competition:
Skyhigh beat Reality, Mind, Really, and Fantasy once each.
Skyhigh lost to Light, Fantasy, Sharp, Baby, Sea, Honsin, Bogus, Mind, and Flashx2.
This competition is hardly comparable to JD playing flash and light eighty times inn a row and you know it. An A-teamer should have done better at his specialty matchup.
I never said it was. JD at 3-7 was still S-class. I labeled SkyHigh "low A at least."
Round 2 ends on the 11th. So that's my guess for the next PR. Round 3 starts the next day, but honestly Flamewheel should be able to put together a PR pretty quickly since he can already have a good idea of where he wants to place players give or a take a few spots.
So Bogus' latest TvT was probably his best this season yet, but regrettably he got the loss thanks to Turn's totally awesome push. Meanwhile, Stork continues to do well in PvP, so my 7-8-9 order of choice now has Stork a clear favorite ahead of Bogus for ranking. Not sure about Stork vs Effort for the higher spot yet, but possibly Stork ahead at the moment (and Stork could rise even higher if he shows his true form on the 11th vs KT). Turn for #10, anyone?
Now normally I would hardly hold Last's loss against him, as it was a very obvious BO (and Build placement) loss, but those four idle SCVs gave me flashbacks to Jaedong. And Last was one-basing, so there's no excuse. Yes, he still would have lost the game. But, imo, it shows Last can succumb to nervous pressure. Should that game negatively affect his ranking?
I was already considering Turn for #10 anyway, so yes. And Stork over Bogus now... yes.
The thing I'm thinking about Last is... we've only seen his TvZ once but I was thoroughly unimpressed. I was watching that game against Action last night and I couldn't help but get the sense that Last was totally unprepared to play a Zerg, so he just went through the motions of a normal TvZ even when it was clear that Action was not playing entirely conventionally. When you make vultures like that it's to counter the threat of backstab while you're expanding again and/or switching to factory tech, yet Last took far too long to do either. If he wanted to persist in 1 factory off 2 base for so long then he should have made tanks first so that he could press Action either at his natural or his third, abusing the high ground on Jade to his advantage. Increasing to pour on vults and mnm when all he can do is camp outside Action's bases is kind of, well, dumb.
So normally I'd be inclined to just give him a freebie loss considering how well he's proven his TvT, but I'm trying to imagine if Bogus had played only 1 TvT and all the rest TvZ/TvP and Last played 4 TvZ with the rest TvT/TvP, who would really have the better record? Not clear. I'd like to see Last's TvZ again.
On February 06 2012 10:05 Mortality wrote: That's because somebody forgot to tell Flash that bonjwa mode is supposed to come to an end and a new generation is supposed to eventually take over. Flash is unimpressed by the new generation.
I would actually say there is no new generation. The talent that came into BW the last 12-18 months was quiet poor in my opinion, and given SC2, this probably is not going to change.
Still impressive that Flash seems to still get better. I think without having to worry about ACE-matches (and therefore only preparing 1-2maps a week), sniping has become nearly impossible and his superior abilities just carry him to his ridiculous PL record.
On February 06 2012 10:05 Mortality wrote: That's because somebody forgot to tell Flash that bonjwa mode is supposed to come to an end and a new generation is supposed to eventually take over. Flash is unimpressed by the new generation.
I would actually say there is no new generation. The talent that came into BW the last 12-18 months was quiet poor in my opinion, and given SC2, this probably is not going to change.
Hard to say: I would buy the argument that no one besides KHAN and SKT has displayed much interest in continuing to find effective new players, and I'm not even sure about SKT at this point. CJ probably has Another Zerg around somewhere (Where?) and BByong has impressed occasionally, but we've not seen much from either. Beyond that... yeah.
But on the other hand, the newer players aren't worse than Flash and maybe Jaedong: Bisu still probably has the potential to be better but isn't displaying it now. But look at the rest of the old guard: Light may have his stellar TvZ and good TvT, but there's the nagging feeling Bogus (say) is a more complete player. Soulkey has been (at least arguably) better than Jaedong so far this year. Sea is flat out bad right now; free is worse; Calm struggles; the best Protoss atm is Stats by about a mile (and then Jangbi... I guess?). Stork barely had a winning record last year and doesn't look better this.
Sure, Flash remains the scene's only genius, but in a hypothetical Flash-less world we're looking at ZerO and Movie having titles; Hydra has one anyway (thanks to MVP iirc). And I think I agree with your forecast in a world where SC2 is getting the hype (and maybe the money - I can't tell about the Korean scene). But I feel like you're selling the talent that is there short.
Flash was eliminated by Classic and Ssak the season that Hydra got his title. The MVP loss was in a bo5 that Flash won 3-1. It was a big deal because MVP won the first set, with the remaining 4 sets played on a separate day.
Hydra was also eliminated from Flash the next MSL, where he probably would have taken the gold again because his ZvZ was best in the world at the time.
Yeah, maybe I am selling the talent that is out there short. Maybe it is just the lack of a really S-class type of player in there that makes me frustrated with the new generation. Baby couldn't deliver what we hoped. I think the best player that emerged during the last 18months was Soulkey, and then Bogus and Stats (with emerged I don't mean that their first appearence as a rookie was during that timeframe). I don't believe that Bogus actually has it in him to become a really dominating player, same with Stats. Soulkey is the only one I really feel could go all the way. Some A-class players have emerged (like Turn and Brave for Samsung), but all in all I feel in a league with only seven real teams, now washed up players like Free shouldn't even get ,much playtime anymore. And Air Force is doing too well, which I basically attribute to the lack of quality in the other teams (only 7th place, but 5-7 is a 'good' record). I am just now looking at the actual SPL newspost, and so many names have been around for several years now. I just feel there was not enough turn-over the last 2 seasons.
On February 08 2012 09:57 VGhost wrote: But on the other hand, the newer players aren't worse than Flash and maybe Jaedong: Bisu still probably has the potential to be better but isn't displaying it now. But look at the rest of the old guard: Light may have his stellar TvZ and good TvT, but there's the nagging feeling Bogus (say) is a more complete player. Soulkey has been (at least arguably) better than Jaedong so far this year. Sea is flat out bad right now; free is worse; Calm struggles; the best Protoss atm is Stats by about a mile (and then Jangbi... I guess?). Stork barely had a winning record last year and doesn't look better this.
It's statement like these that makes me miss the OSL/MSL even more. If only Sea had prospered in the days of no SL, we just might be talking about him like the 2nd best terran to exist on the planet.
I don't think Stork is playing that badly this season. However, like Bisu, he is always sent out early in the match and gets really easy match ups. I don't get why January/Park don't send their best players later like how KT does with Flash?
On February 08 2012 09:57 VGhost wrote: But on the other hand, the newer players aren't worse than Flash and maybe Jaedong: Bisu still probably has the potential to be better but isn't displaying it now. But look at the rest of the old guard: Light may have his stellar TvZ and good TvT, but there's the nagging feeling Bogus (say) is a more complete player. Soulkey has been (at least arguably) better than Jaedong so far this year. Sea is flat out bad right now; free is worse; Calm struggles; the best Protoss atm is Stats by about a mile (and then Jangbi... I guess?). Stork barely had a winning record last year and doesn't look better this.
It's statement like these that makes me miss the OSL/MSL even more. If only Sea had prospered in the days of no SL, we just might be talking about him like the 2nd best terran to exist on the planet.
People also did that in times of when Fantasy was underperforming, remember february last year with Flash / Light / Sea at the 1 / 2 / 3..
Stats is performing better than stork and he is more well rounded than Bisu. Without the PL people woulda talked of Bisu lastyear as the mostslumping person along with Free and Kal last year.
On February 08 2012 16:13 Motivate wrote: I don't think Stork is playing that badly this season. However, like Bisu, he is always sent out early in the match and gets really easy match ups. I don't get why January/Park don't send their best players later like how KT does with Flash?
Maps? Stork has come out mostly on Jade and Outlier. Flash comes out on any map that's not CR or Outlier. However the maps are ordered that particular day will have something to do with when they get sent out. Flash also has to be used more strategically. Or well, he did earlier on, when KT had a lot of trouble getting the 3rd win. Lately, it hasn't been as necessary. For SKT, it's not necessary to save Bisu, as Fantasy is the one that plays the 5th set insurance win role; that's why he didn't get much of a chance to play in the earlier rounds when SKT kept winning 3-1. So many times we've been robbed of possible Fanta vs. Flash or Fanta vs. Stats games :[
of course it is harder to be a rookie at a time when there are only 8 teams playing, as compared with when there were 12. the level of play in proleague has gone up absurdly much - there are no weak teams left.
On February 08 2012 09:57 VGhost wrote: But on the other hand, the newer players aren't worse than Flash and maybe Jaedong: Bisu still probably has the potential to be better but isn't displaying it now. But look at the rest of the old guard: Light may have his stellar TvZ and good TvT, but there's the nagging feeling Bogus (say) is a more complete player. Soulkey has been (at least arguably) better than Jaedong so far this year. Sea is flat out bad right now; free is worse; Calm struggles; the best Protoss atm is Stats by about a mile (and then Jangbi... I guess?). Stork barely had a winning record last year and doesn't look better this.
It's statement like these that makes me miss the OSL/MSL even more. If only Sea had prospered in the days of no SL, we just might be talking about him like the 2nd best terran to exist on the planet.
People also did that in times of when Fantasy was underperforming, remember february last year with Flash / Light / Sea at the 1 / 2 / 3..
Stats is performing better than stork and he is more well rounded than Bisu. Without the PL people woulda talked of Bisu lastyear as the mostslumping person along with Free and Kal last year.
I think you mean Feb 2010, and being ranked top 3 on the PR on one particular month doesn't really mean all that much in the grand scheme of things.
Back in the days before PL, tournaments mostly started at the Ro16, but there were more of them. It wasn't just OSL and MSL, although those two were already the most prestigious by the time PL got going. So it's hard to say exactly where Bisu would have ended up in the rankings.
You know who's underrated right now methinks? Movie. Losses this season are to Stork, Fantasy, and SK. Not sure if CJ has another game or not and too lazy to check calendar right now, but if Movie gets sent out again I'll have my eyes on him as a possible contender for the #10 spot. Still leaning towards Turn though.
Movie, Effort, and Leta all suffer from a disease known as CJ Syndrome.
That team has way to many players (yet did poorly in Round 2). Those players all have winning records, but are seen so infrequenly that it is hard to judge.
CJ is done for the round, so Movie and Leta only played in 3 of their teams 7 matches that round. 3 games is really not enough to rank someone who did not make the previous PR, unless they go 3-0 over fairly good competition (such as Turn did). That's the price to pay for being a member of CJ Entus. If Movie wants to be a star he should join the Air Force.
Effort played in 4 games. He also played in 6 games last round, compared to Movie and Leta who played in 4 that round. That's enough for effort, but Movie, no, imo.
Though I really like his play so far, and think he should get a CBNC at the very least (and I wouldn't crucify Flamewheel for giving him a spot, I just think he can't make a name for himself if he's gonna play in a minority of his team's matches).
New games may be the most important factor in PR, but ignoring the rest of the season wouldn't be good either. A lot of players only get to play 4-5 games per round. Even a player who is planned to be fielded every time (like Flash or Fantasy) doesn't always get to play.
I'm pretty sure the only players to have played every game so far are Bisu and Stork.
Light and ZerO have as well, though I see why you'd overlook those two.
I'm not sure how your first line applies to Movie. He played 4 games last round, and went 2-2. That's nothing special, especially considering his two wins: PvT wins over Sea and Light are basically auto-wins this season. He didn't even get a CBNC for this ranking. So I agree with you completely, which is why I said 3 games is not enough unless you got a spot on last rank or are undefeated (or maybe destroy Flash). I just can't see Movie going from no consideration in the last PR, goes 2-1, and suddenly makes the top 10. But if he does, I won't be mad or anything, as I say he's definitely a top 15 player this season.
I was wondering how players' (overall) records broke down, so I ran a stupid-simple sort (win^2/games) on current records, which produced the following top ten over the PL season so far:
1. Flash (10-0) 2. fantasy (9-1) 3. Neo.G_SoulKey (9-3) 4. Last (8-2) 5. Stork (9-4) 6. Stats (8-3) 7. Bisu (9-5) 8. Jaedong (7-5) 9. TurN (4-0) 10. BeSt (7-6)
The next three are EffOrt (6-4), Leta (5-3), BaBy (5-4), followed by Brave, Crazy-Hydra, and Calm (all at 4-2). Then we get into non-winning records or not as many games (or both), the exception being Movie's 4-3.
All the usual disclaimers about pure stats, not taking game quality or opponents into account, etc. etc. apply, probably double since this isn't even an analysis just the second thing I worked up to start to approximate quality. On the other hand, I do expect the PR and CNBC to basically draw from that top sixteen, with possible exceptions for these players: Hydra (?), Jangbi (??), Movie (?), Bogus (???).
I was wondering how players' (overall) records broke down, so I ran a stupid-simple sort (win^2/games) on current records, which produced the following top ten over the PL season so far:
1. Flash (10-0) 2. fantasy (9-1) 3. Neo.G_SoulKey (9-3) 4. Last (8-2) 5. Stork (9-4) 6. Stats (8-3) 7. Bisu (9-5) 8. Jaedong (7-5) 9. TurN (4-0) 10. BeSt (7-6)
The next three are EffOrt (6-4), Leta (5-3), BaBy (5-4), followed by Brave, Crazy-Hydra, and Calm (all at 4-2). Then we get into non-winning records or not as many games (or both), the exception being Movie's 4-3.
All the usual disclaimers about pure stats, not taking game quality or opponents into account, etc. etc. apply, probably double since this isn't even an analysis just the second thing I worked up to start to approximate quality. On the other hand, I do expect the PR and CNBC to basically draw from that top sixteen, with possible exceptions for these players: Hydra (?), Jangbi (??), Movie (?), Bogus (???).
I think putting turn above jaedong and bisu would be better. Turn just hasn't been given enough chances.
On February 10 2012 12:35 Mortality wrote: Why win^2?
So that people with a good number of wins get recognized over people who has 1-0
On February 10 2012 12:06 VGhost wrote: I was wondering how players' (overall) records broke down, so I ran a stupid-simple sort (win^2/games) on current records, which produced the following top ten over the PL season so far:
1. Flash (10-0) 2. fantasy (9-1) 3. Neo.G_SoulKey (9-3) 4. Last (8-2) 5. Stork (9-4) 6. Stats (8-3) 7. Bisu (9-5) 8. Jaedong (7-5) 9. TurN (4-0) 10. BeSt (7-6)
The next three are EffOrt (6-4), Leta (5-3), BaBy (5-4), followed by Brave, Crazy-Hydra, and Calm (all at 4-2). Then we get into non-winning records or not as many games (or both), the exception being Movie's 4-3.
All the usual disclaimers about pure stats, not taking game quality or opponents into account, etc. etc. apply, probably double since this isn't even an analysis just the second thing I worked up to start to approximate quality. On the other hand, I do expect the PR and CNBC to basically draw from that top sixteen, with possible exceptions for these players: Hydra (?), Jangbi (??), Movie (?), Bogus (???).
Also of note are three map-specific 4-0s. Flash and ZerO have won four games and remained undefeated on Electric Circuit, and Soulkey has gone 4-0 on Sniper Ridge. I think ZerO is CBNC material until he loses on that map.
On February 10 2012 14:06 baubo wrote: ELO works badly with small sample sizes. While it's true that any measurement suffers with lack of sample size, ELO imo suffers more than most.
Given how few games there are, I really feel just some combination of record and watching actual play would be enough.
True, I was only addenduming his point with that post.
My actual opinion is in the more relevant current power rank commentary.
On February 10 2012 13:23 pvzvt wrote: dont forget jaehoon is 5-2
Much as I'd love to see Jaeoon on the PR again, he's 5-6 overall and at only *4-2 since the last PR... I'm not sure I could justify that, but flamewheel's welcome to try.
On February 10 2012 12:35 Mortality wrote: Why win^2?
It was my guess at trying to balance games vs win-rate. I'm not trying to say it's perfect, but for something stupidly easy to calculate it seemed to do an okay job.
You also need to see the people he lost to; Bisu, Stork and Flash. He's hard arguably the hardest opponents and he either loses to an S-class player or gets cheesed (Brave and Hoejja)
So Round 2 is over. I hope Flamewheel gives some indication of what he plans to do, since now is the prime time to sneak out a Round 2 PR before Round 3 starts later today.
Here's what I'm feeling.
The top 2 cannot be questioned at the moment, imo:
1. Flash - Don't even try to argue this one. 2. Fantasy - Ditto.
The rest have some leeway, but here's my picks:
3/4 - Soulkey or Stats (whichever order) 5 - Bisu 6/7 - Last or Stork (whichever order) 8/9/10/CBNC - Brave, Bogus, Effort, Jaedong, Jaehoon, Turn (whichever order)
Maaaayyybe CBNC (and a very weak chance at #10) - Best, Leta, Movie
Bisu may have an argument for #3 as well, but I'm not sure I really felt much from him this round, though his record was very good of course. Last kinda faltered in his TvT aura and although Stork went only 4-3 this round (as did Last), but he did play Flash and Fantasy, so what's a poor toss to do? I could see either having a good argument to be placed over the other.
Jaedong is getting the W's recently, so I'm fine with him in the top 10 if there's good rational for it. Though Jaehoon makes a very strong case, and probably should make the top 10 unless his reputation precedes him.
I'm not sure how much consideration Brave has been given, but he has redeemed himself for his fail game against Hydra last round. Pure W/L he went 4-1 this round which is impressive, but his competition was certainly not the strongest.
Jaehoon deserves a low spot. His overall record for this season is unspectacular, but he has had one of the strongest lists of opponents, and his last two games at least were very convincing wins.
I'm inclined to say at most CBNC for Brave. I'm not a huge fan of giving a player a spot just because they can snipe on a particular map or against a particular race, or anything like that. Not to say I dislike dedicated snipers because I've liked plenty of them over the years, but Brave needs to show more than that before I'd be interested in ranking him.
Jaedong... well, TBH he really SHOULD be 2-4 this round with how he played vs Flying. That game was an abomination and not just for the drone block either. Any competent PvZer would have won that. Not to mention the Ssak win was a 5 pool and he almost tripped himself up by rallying his reinforcements, which you cannot do in those positions on that map (because they try to run to the mineral base instead). That said, his game against Modesty was just spectacular. JvZ. I'm inclined to say CBNC for Jaedong as well. To be brutally honest, Jaedong had 1 spectacular game, 2 meh, and 3 bad games. I don't see how Jaedong can squeeze onto the ranking without getting some serious favoritism sent his way.
On February 12 2012 11:42 Mortality wrote: I'm inclined to say at most CBNC for Brave. I'm not a huge fan of giving a player a spot just because they can snipe on a particular map or against a particular race, or anything like that. Not to say I dislike dedicated snipers because I've liked plenty of them over the years, but Brave needs to show more than that before I'd be interested in ranking him.
How much more can he show? This isn't the old days when there are gazillion PL games coupled with OSL/MSL play. Samsung Khan played 7 games this round he played 5 times. I don't know if he deserves top 10(I think he's borderline myself even as a Khan fan), but other players aren't exactly playing 10+ times to separate themselves from your average PL player.
On February 12 2012 11:42 Mortality wrote: I'm inclined to say at most CBNC for Brave. I'm not a huge fan of giving a player a spot just because they can snipe on a particular map or against a particular race, or anything like that. Not to say I dislike dedicated snipers because I've liked plenty of them over the years, but Brave needs to show more than that before I'd be interested in ranking him.
How much more can he show? This isn't the old days when there are gazillion PL games coupled with OSL/MSL play. Samsung Khan played 7 games this round he played 5 times. I don't know if he deserves top 10(I think he's borderline myself even as a Khan fan), but other players aren't exactly playing 10+ times to separate themselves from your average PL player.
Whether or not he's played at every chance is irrelevant. All he has shown is some prowess on a single map against mediocre competition, not even including the match-up he is historically worst at. For that matter, although his PvZ and PvP winrates are both over 60% lifetime, when has he beaten somebody who could truly be called elite?
I don't think PR spots should be handed out like candy to any player who has a small run of luck. Well, that's a bit cold, but it's the truth. Brave shows some potential, but you definitely cannot say he is "there."
On February 12 2012 11:42 Mortality wrote: I'm inclined to say at most CBNC for Brave. I'm not a huge fan of giving a player a spot just because they can snipe on a particular map or against a particular race, or anything like that. Not to say I dislike dedicated snipers because I've liked plenty of them over the years, but Brave needs to show more than that before I'd be interested in ranking him.
How much more can he show? This isn't the old days when there are gazillion PL games coupled with OSL/MSL play. Samsung Khan played 7 games this round he played 5 times. I don't know if he deserves top 10(I think he's borderline myself even as a Khan fan), but other players aren't exactly playing 10+ times to separate themselves from your average PL player.
Whether or not he's played at every chance is irrelevant. All he has shown is some prowess on a single map against mediocre competition, not even including the match-up he is historically worst at. For that matter, although his PvZ and PvP winrates are both over 60% lifetime, when has he beaten somebody who could truly be called elite?
I don't think PR spots should be handed out like candy to any player who has a small run of luck. Well, that's a bit cold, but it's the truth. Brave shows some potential, but you definitely cannot say he is "there."
Where do you draw the line though? You can talk about not rewarding a small run of luck, but at the same time it seems like we've spent most of the month complaining that nobody's actually good among the "traditional" powers. The consensus seems to be to credit the 2nd-tier guys who are still getting normal solid results, but how do you choose between (hypothetically here) Calm on a 4-1 month and sHy on a 4-1 month assuming no real differences in opponents?
Many factors matter. ANY result should be taken only in the context of history. For example, if a player is 3-0 on a month but only played his strongest match, then that's not necessarily better than going 0-3 but only playing his weakest match. It might sound that way, but it isn't. It's just luck of getting the right match-up. That's only an example, but you get my meaning I hope. Just simply saying "4-1 pass, 3-0 pass, 2-3 fail" is not adequate.
On February 12 2012 22:53 Mortality wrote: Many factors matter. ANY result should be taken only in the context of history. For example, if a player is 3-0 on a month but only played his strongest match, then that's not necessarily better than going 0-3 but only playing his weakest match. It might sound that way, but it isn't. It's just luck of getting the right match-up. That's only an example, but you get my meaning I hope. Just simply saying "4-1 pass, 3-0 pass, 2-3 fail" is not adequate.
True. A player that is 4-1 may be a worse player than someone who's 0-3, but the 4-1 player brings in MUCH MORE result. Samsung Khan is 2nd in the PL right now only trailing KT by point differential. A lot of that is Brave's contribution. I'd rather place someone who's 4-1 and helping his team win rather than some guy 2-3 while watching his team flounder.
Oh, and BTW... other teams can use dedicated map specialists too. Yet no other team uses them(at least to my knowledge). So there are two possibilities here. One, it does take a great amount of skill to be a specialist knowing you may get a vP sniper on this map. Or other coaches are a bunch of morons who don't realize how to take advantage of such things.
Uhm, other coaches are focusing on sniping on particular maps. Brave has been sent 6 times on CR (5-1). Players sent 5 or more times on a particular map include:
Light sent 6 times on Electric Circuit (4-2) Bisu sent 6 times on Outlier (3-3) Free sent 6 times on Outlier (3-3) Jaedong sent 5 times on Outlier (4-1) Hydra sent 5 times on Outlier (4-1) Fantasy sent 5 times on Jade (4-1) Last sent 5 times on Jade (3-2) Shy sent 5 times on Jade (2-3) Best sent 5 times on CR (3-2) Baby sent 5 times on CR (3-2) (accounting for more than half the games as Terran on that map) Calm sent 5 times on CR (2-3)
Unlike Brave, most of the players I listed above are used in nearly every match, so their coaches try to avoid using them too predictably. Not even shown here would include Wooki (4/5 games played on CR) and Mini (4/5 games played on Outlier).
It's true that Brave's stats look good even among this group, but it's undeniable that so far he's slid through the cracks. Once he starts losing, it's possible that he could get pulled from the line-up entirely. Considering the dynamic of the team (brave competing for the spot of 3rd/4th Protoss with Grape) and the way January coaches (Khan has always been a bit of an odd duck, e.g. how they used to focus so hard on a strong 2v2 lineup back in the day, strange ace match decisions, etc.), it wouldn't surprise me.
Also, I think it's an exaggeration that JD isn't in the top 10 because of that game. He still managed to win, right? I'm all of the underdogs but JD below Brave, I think, is just wrong.
Or did you mean that game about Canata?
I just copied what I posted in the Featured Article. Please, spare me the hammer
turn #7? seriously? don't get me wrong, it's fun and all to see kwanro offracing as terran but you said it yourself, he's very sloppy. he's played onl 4 games as well.
i feel people are being a bit too harsh on jaedong. also, in what world was stork vs flash a close game? stork did a great job holding on but that doesn't mean it was close.
I just hope they change the Proleague format soon. This is in my mind the worst possible way to do it. The Bo7 was a nice way to limit the value of a single player but an ace match is key for creating great matchups in my mind and has to be included again. It gives so many more games between the big guns and lets face it, a top player beating down a rookie or 2 rookies playing each other isnt exactly something most people watch. Now that OSL and MSL arent even going on the number of interesting matchups each week is extremely low which I think plays a lot into the lackluster performances of everyone right now.
On February 14 2012 00:12 luckybeni2 wrote: I just hope they change the Proleague format soon. This is in my mind the worst possible way to do it. The Bo7 was a nice way to limit the value of a single player but an ace match is key for creating great matchups in my mind and has to be included again. It gives so many more games between the big guns and lets face it, a top player beating down a rookie or 2 rookies playing each other isnt exactly something most people watch. Now that OSL and MSL arent even going on the number of interesting matchups each week is extremely low which I think plays a lot into the lackluster performances of everyone right now.
Gonna be difficult. Our broadcasting time is practically cut down to half. And we also need new players to be able to play and grow. Imho this is the best we can get with what we have.
That stat about Jaedong being out of the rank for the first time in almost 5 years is pretty insane. I wonder what similar stats would be for flash, stork, and bisu. I have some hope that Jaedong will see a return to form as team 8 starts performing better or once osl starts.
The top half of the ranking looks great. The bottom half?
...
Not a fan of 6-10.
Well, I guess Bisu's place is okay. The rest of it bugs me. I'd rather have seen Bogus on the rank and I didn't see Effort's loss to Best, but I think overall his play was actually cleaner in R2 than R1, yet not even a CBNC for him. Turn at 7 feels just damn weird. I'm glad he made the ranking, but 7 feels too high.
In fairness to you, Flamewheel, this was a tough month to rank. Usually there's some difficulty around 9/10, but this time it gets ugly after 5.
P.S. Very amused that people commenting on the Featured Article thought the jaw dropping game was Flying. It was the win over Modesty. That game was art. The Flying game made me want to smash my computer and bury it at the bottom of an abandoned mine shaft. Possibly the worst game of SC in all progaming history. Awful performance from both players.
On February 14 2012 04:02 phyren wrote: That stat about Jaedong being out of the rank for the first time in almost 5 years is pretty insane. I wonder what similar stats would be for flash, stork, and bisu. I have some hope that Jaedong will see a return to form as team 8 starts performing better or once osl starts.
For Stork? Just 2 months ago T-T Bisu? September 2010. Flash? August 2009.
So Jaedong's streak was actually the longest out of anyone :/
On February 14 2012 04:02 phyren wrote: That stat about Jaedong being out of the rank for the first time in almost 5 years is pretty insane. I wonder what similar stats would be for flash, stork, and bisu. I have some hope that Jaedong will see a return to form as team 8 starts performing better or once osl starts.
For Stork? Just 2 months ago T-T Bisu? September 2010. Flash? August 2009.
So Jaedong's streak was actually the longest out of anyone :/
It's funny because Flash went from unranked to 1st in just 2 months. I'm thinking JD will go 6-1 in R3, with his only loss coming to Flash.
On February 14 2012 04:02 phyren wrote: That stat about Jaedong being out of the rank for the first time in almost 5 years is pretty insane. I wonder what similar stats would be for flash, stork, and bisu. I have some hope that Jaedong will see a return to form as team 8 starts performing better or once osl starts.
For Stork? Just 2 months ago T-T Bisu? September 2010. Flash? August 2009.
So Jaedong's streak was actually the longest out of anyone :/
FlaSh's will surpass that easily... unless BW shuts down before then but that won't happen.
We need to get this onto the sidebar again. There is just a giant empty space there.Between that and the lack of support for FPL I get the feeling that BW is not exactly a priority around this place.
On February 14 2012 08:52 flamewheel wrote: This season is just ugly. Match quality has been so much lower than that of previous years.
I don't think so... Jaehoon commented in an interview recently that the quality of the players in PL has gone up a lot (maybe this is not what you mean though...). This should be the case since there are so few teams now that are stacked with good players from the disbanded teams.
I don't think anyone will beat Jaedong's run on the PR, it's just insane. Flash could do it, but the chances are small imo: he needs 2,5 years more I think which is just absurd. And tbh I really think Jaedong should have made this ranking too.
On February 14 2012 08:52 flamewheel wrote: This season is just ugly. Match quality has been so much lower than that of previous years.
I don't necessarily think so. It's just that there's no individual leagues, the reduction from Bo7 to Bo5 and each team only plays once per week. Altogether we're getting 1/3 of the games we got from last year. There have always been bad games but the sheer number of games played meant we were bound to get at least a good one or two every day. As long as we got to see at least one really good game then staying up to watch Brood War is worth it. Right now the schedule is set up in such a way that we might go 5 days without seeing a great game, thus furthering the perception that the quality of play has gone down.
On February 14 2012 04:02 phyren wrote: That stat about Jaedong being out of the rank for the first time in almost 5 years is pretty insane. I wonder what similar stats would be for flash, stork, and bisu. I have some hope that Jaedong will see a return to form as team 8 starts performing better or once osl starts.
For Stork? Just 2 months ago T-T Bisu? September 2010. Flash? August 2009.
So Jaedong's streak was actually the longest out of anyone :/
In Flash's defence, I think the power rank for August 2009 was just downright silly. Flash was faulted for not playing enough games.
On February 14 2012 00:12 luckybeni2 wrote: I just hope they change the Proleague format soon. This is in my mind the worst possible way to do it. The Bo7 was a nice way to limit the value of a single player but an ace match is key for creating great matchups in my mind and has to be included again. It gives so many more games between the big guns and lets face it, a top player beating down a rookie or 2 rookies playing each other isnt exactly something most people watch. Now that OSL and MSL arent even going on the number of interesting matchups each week is extremely low which I think plays a lot into the lackluster performances of everyone right now.
Arguably having it as a bo5 increases games between the big guns. There's a bigger chance they'll meet each other with less spots. Who wants to see 6 games of scrubs and no real guarantee of an ace match? Bo5 increases the tension because each game is worth even more and it keeps broadcasting time at reasonable levels for OGN.
I'm inclined to say at most CBNC for Brave. I'm not a huge fan of giving a player a spot just because they can snipe on a particular map or against a particular race, or anything like that. Not to say I dislike dedicated snipers because I've liked plenty of them over the years, but Brave needs to show more than that before I'd be interested in ranking him.
Statwise Brave looks pretty damn scary. Over 60% in both PvZ and PvP, and not sure where this sniper is coming from since he is playing both P and Z and winning. His vT record seems shitty but the sample size is really low and he hasn't played it much recently. Not sold on Brave but I think he is a player to watch out for.
In case anyone is interested and too lazy to look back, here's JD's writeup from August 2008 when he was put back on to PR and not removed until now.
Even with his horrible, horrible series against Rock, Jaedong is 21-6 since June, and he just made his first OSL. Remembering his games of past and looking at his games of present has led me to two conclusions: his ZvT is world-class, and his ZvP needs work. And for once, the statistics support my opinion! Jaedong’s winning percentages by matchup are as follows: 66.67% ZvT, 78.26% ZvZ, and a mere 50% ZvP. Does Jaedong have what it takes to overcome an OSL-caliber Protoss? Or with only two Protosses currently in the OSL (and the potential for only two more), will he even have to worry about them?
On February 14 2012 14:27 L_Master wrote: You still don't sound 100% sold on Soulkey. This surprises me.
There are some blemishes in Soulkey's history. For example, statistically ZvZ is his strongest match-up with almost 66% wins. At a glance, this result looks absolutely frightening. If we are to consider a standard format 16 man tournament (group stage -> bo3 -> bo5 -> bo5 final), then with that win rate on average you are making it to the semifinal. The earliest you could possibly fall out and still maintain that win percentage is the Ro8 by going 3-0 in the group and 1-2 in the Ro8. In other words, looking at statistics alone, if we were to hold a Zerg player only tournament with 16 people, Soulkey would be a safe bet to get a medal.
But here's the anomaly. If we look at Soulkey's match history, he has played in a ZvZ series on 6 separate occasions, and each time he has lost the series. 0-6. There are other inconsistencies as well.
I'm inclined to say at most CBNC for Brave. I'm not a huge fan of giving a player a spot just because they can snipe on a particular map or against a particular race, or anything like that. Not to say I dislike dedicated snipers because I've liked plenty of them over the years, but Brave needs to show more than that before I'd be interested in ranking him.
Statwise Brave looks pretty damn scary. Over 60% in both PvZ and PvP, and not sure where this sniper is coming from since he is playing both P and Z and winning. His vT record seems shitty but the sample size is really low and he hasn't played it much recently. Not sold on Brave but I think he is a player to watch out for.
When you look at the caliber opponent Brave has faced, 60% isn't quite as scary as all that. And the reason Brave has not played PvT recently is that he is playing maps where Terran are not as frequently sent out. Basically, he's dodging.
I feel like turn's success should be rewarded with the place over bisu. He has been solid but "rookie mistake" prone, whereas Bisu has been disappointing.
Hard to judge anything with one game a week per player, to be honest.
Does anybody know when the next OSL is supposed to start? That will make the power rank much more substantial. Agree with everything even if JD out of the PR is really sad.
On February 14 2012 08:52 flamewheel wrote: This season is just ugly. Match quality has been so much lower than that of previous years.
cause they're practicing sc2 in the side
If you haven't got a reliable source, don't state that as though it's a fact.
since when does he state that? november?
yeah because i just clearly make this shit up just to annoy you guys
seriously, what makes you think i'm lying? what makes you think i'd keep mentioning it if i didn't have a good source for it or heard from enough people?
Don't think that's what contributed to the "lower" quality of game. The builds are crisper, so the execution of cheese is more powerful. It's been mentioned at the beginning of the season that there's going to be less default macro-game because players are going into the match with a build planned over the longer time between matches.
What did we get from JD vs Flash multiple finals? A lot of rolling over and dying, and a few drawn out epic games. That's what we're seeing here, except with less talent.
On February 14 2012 08:52 flamewheel wrote: This season is just ugly. Match quality has been so much lower than that of previous years.
cause they're practicing sc2 in the side
If you haven't got a reliable source, don't state that as though it's a fact.
since when does he state that? november?
yeah because i just clearly make this shit up just to annoy you guys
seriously, what makes you think i'm lying? what makes you think i'd keep mentioning it if i didn't have a good source for it or heard from enough people?
Why did come back to write that but still not include where you're getting this stuff from? I for one don't telepathically know what your reliable sources are, but maybe if I did I would be just as convinced as you are. Is there some reason you don't want to share?
On February 14 2012 08:52 flamewheel wrote: This season is just ugly. Match quality has been so much lower than that of previous years.
cause they're practicing sc2 in the side
If you haven't got a reliable source, don't state that as though it's a fact.
since when does he state that? november?
yeah because i just clearly make this shit up just to annoy you guys
seriously, what makes you think i'm lying? what makes you think i'd keep mentioning it if i didn't have a good source for it or heard from enough people?
Why did come back to write that but still not include where you're getting this stuff from? I for one don't telepathically know what your reliable sources are, but maybe if I did I would be just as convinced as you are. Is there some reason you don't want to share?
Because it's how communication works in esport it seems, by rumor and hearsay. Annoying as hell. + Show Spoiler +
On February 14 2012 08:52 flamewheel wrote: This season is just ugly. Match quality has been so much lower than that of previous years.
cause they're practicing sc2 in the side
If you haven't got a reliable source, don't state that as though it's a fact.
since when does he state that? november?
yeah because i just clearly make this shit up just to annoy you guys
seriously, what makes you think i'm lying? what makes you think i'd keep mentioning it if i didn't have a good source for it or heard from enough people?
Why are you taking it personally? Hell, even if entire TL staff (whom I really respect) came out and published well-looking article that basically says "BW players practicing SC2 on side!" I'd still demand for the source if they fail to publish appropriate evidence. Most importantly, please do understand the subject of brood war players practicing for SC2 is extremely emotional matter for the some. It is highly selfish of you to make such attention-grabbing statement then call foul about people disrespecting you when we only want to know concrete evidence supporting such assertion.
On February 14 2012 08:52 flamewheel wrote: This season is just ugly. Match quality has been so much lower than that of previous years.
cause they're practicing sc2 in the side
If you haven't got a reliable source, don't state that as though it's a fact.
since when does he state that? november?
yeah because i just clearly make this shit up just to annoy you guys
seriously, what makes you think i'm lying? what makes you think i'd keep mentioning it if i didn't have a good source for it or heard from enough people?
People are going to react like that if you don't actually provide any evidence. It makes it seem like you are gloating about being important enough to know insider information that average TL member doesn't. You have to give us something.
On February 15 2012 04:09 bearbuddy wrote: Don't think that's what contributed to the "lower" quality of game. The builds are crisper, so the execution of cheese is more powerful. It's been mentioned at the beginning of the season that there's going to be less default macro-game because players are going into the match with a build planned over the longer time between matches.
What did we get from JD vs Flash multiple finals? A lot of rolling over and dying, and a few drawn out epic games. That's what we're seeing here, except with less talent.
I agree with your post. Builds are distinct and well-defined and players definitely come out with "a plan." Last season, with Bo7's and a ton of matches per week between OGN and MBC, a lot of matches felt like players came out just to go general-safe-macro-with-harassment-and-gain-little-edges-until-snowball-into-win. Can't blame them, because they had two games (up to four if ace player) in SPL to prepare for, then there was MSL and OSL to worry about... easily 5+ matches to prepare for, possibly all on different maps against different races... whoa!
Now, with only ONE match per week, they have a definite idea of what build to execute on the specific map. If they go for a timing-based build, they precisely execute that timing attack - whether it succeeds or fails is another story. If they go for a macro match, they really get hardcore greedy and sometimes get punished - or else, roll the power of economy and win (against a player who only half-assed their economy, for example).
not been able to watch much of recent so can't comment a great deal, but cannot complain with stats and soulkey in the top 5
as an aside, there was a thread which i can't find which lists a lot of the players' music that's played pregame, someone post a link please? closest thing to a low content thread we have and i've been looking for the last 20 minutes so qq
On February 14 2012 08:52 flamewheel wrote: This season is just ugly. Match quality has been so much lower than that of previous years.
cause they're practicing sc2 in the side
If you haven't got a reliable source, don't state that as though it's a fact.
since when does he state that? november?
yeah because i just clearly make this shit up just to annoy you guys
seriously, what makes you think i'm lying? what makes you think i'd keep mentioning it if i didn't have a good source for it or heard from enough people?
People are going to react like that if you don't actually provide any evidence. It makes it seem like you are gloating about being important enough to know insider information that average TL member doesn't. You have to give us something.
Milkis is just about one of the last people you would EVER call out for making something up, if he says something then it would only be because he has evidence for it
Why do you and he keep talking about making stuff up and lying? Nobody in the whole thread has suggested he is doing either one. All that's happened is people asked where he's getting his facts from.
On February 15 2012 09:09 sixfour wrote: not been able to watch much of recent so can't comment a great deal, but cannot complain with stats and soulkey in the top 5
as an aside, there was a thread which i can't find which lists a lot of the players' music that's played pregame, someone post a link please? closest thing to a low content thread we have and i've been looking for the last 20 minutes so qq
On February 15 2012 04:09 bearbuddy wrote: Don't think that's what contributed to the "lower" quality of game. The builds are crisper, so the execution of cheese is more powerful. It's been mentioned at the beginning of the season that there's going to be less default macro-game because players are going into the match with a build planned over the longer time between matches.
What did we get from JD vs Flash multiple finals? A lot of rolling over and dying, and a few drawn out epic games. That's what we're seeing here, except with less talent.
I agree with your post. Builds are distinct and well-defined and players definitely come out with "a plan." Last season, with Bo7's and a ton of matches per week between OGN and MBC, a lot of matches felt like players came out just to go general-safe-macro-with-harassment-and-gain-little-edges-until-snowball-into-win. Can't blame them, because they had two games (up to four if ace player) in SPL to prepare for, then there was MSL and OSL to worry about... easily 5+ matches to prepare for, possibly all on different maps against different races... whoa!
Now, with only ONE match per week, they have a definite idea of what build to execute on the specific map. If they go for a timing-based build, they precisely execute that timing attack - whether it succeeds or fails is another story. If they go for a macro match, they really get hardcore greedy and sometimes get punished - or else, roll the power of economy and win (against a player who only half-assed their economy, for example).
Is that manner pylon I see? Well, F**K you and F**K the build I prepared, I'm gunna just impromptu-roll you over with biomech!
As well as what you guys are discussing, do you think we're seeing more planned builds because the maps tend to encourage this? There are two 2 player maps, and it seems the maps have more exploitable features than past seasons of PL.
Edit: Even Jade, the 'standard' macro map has reverse ramps making things like Action's proxy hatch vs Jangbi possible.
why would you care about what milkis says? every single post i read from him about bw players practicing sc2 is more bitter than the previous one, don't let it affect you, maybe he has nothing better to do, throw the rock and then hide the hand, everything he says its just rumors, nothing solid, so whatever, let the rumors be
I don't think there's a lower quality of games proportionally. But with less games overall, there are indeed less quality games. So if, say, 1/3 of games impress you, then 1/3 of the 6 matches per week is a lot less than 1/3 of the many more games per week last season plus the MSL and OSL ongoing.
The only thing that might even sway the proportional balance is the lack of an Ace match, so maybe games are a bit less quality, even proportionally. The problem is you see a lot of stomping from the S-Class and high-A-Class players on the mediocre guys instead of seeing a TBLS battle every time their respective teams meet.
But Flash is more perfect than ever, so there's that going for the scene this season.
Psh, practicing SC2. Stork routinely makes finals while playing WoW, Cell Phone games, and watching Anime. Hey, they only practice BW up to 10-12 hours a day, right? That should be plenty of time for an hour or two of a little hobby on the side, such as SC2, so they can relax and unwind from the APM-intensive day.
On February 15 2012 10:36 KenNage wrote: why would you care about what milkis says? every single post i read from him about bw players practicing sc2 is more bitter than the previous one, don't let it affect you, maybe he has nothing better to do, throw the rock and then hide the hand, everything he says its just rumors, nothing solid, so whatever, let the rumors be
On February 15 2012 10:36 KenNage wrote: why would you care about what milkis says? every single post i read from him about bw players practicing sc2 is more bitter than the previous one, don't let it affect you, maybe he has nothing better to do, throw the rock and then hide the hand, everything he says its just rumors, nothing solid, so whatever, let the rumors be
On February 15 2012 10:36 KenNage wrote: why would you care about what milkis says? every single post i read from him about bw players practicing sc2 is more bitter than the previous one, don't let it affect you, maybe he has nothing better to do, throw the rock and then hide the hand, everything he says its just rumors, nothing solid, so whatever, let the rumors be
You're new here
Not that it means anything inherently, but it's funny you say that when he's obviously been a member for a year and half longer than you.
On February 15 2012 10:36 KenNage wrote: why would you care about what milkis says? every single post i read from him about bw players practicing sc2 is more bitter than the previous one, don't let it affect you, maybe he has nothing better to do, throw the rock and then hide the hand, everything he says its just rumors, nothing solid, so whatever, let the rumors be
You're new here
Not that it means anything inherently, but it's funny you say that when he's obviously been a member for a year and half longer than you.
Then that makes his post even more idiotic if he's calling out Milkis of all people
On February 15 2012 10:36 KenNage wrote: why would you care about what milkis says? every single post i read from him about bw players practicing sc2 is more bitter than the previous one, don't let it affect you, maybe he has nothing better to do, throw the rock and then hide the hand, everything he says its just rumors, nothing solid, so whatever, let the rumors be
You're new here
Not that it means anything inherently, but it's funny you say that when he's obviously been a member for a year and half longer than you.
Then that makes his post even more idiotic if he's calling out Milkis of all people
I've been here for over 3 years and I don't understand why Milkis deserves special treatment.
Well, he's right that Milkis has gotten more bitter when he has to continually defend his opinion, without evidence, in the face of skeptics.
Pretty much this post is his only attempt to actually explain himself, and subsequently he mostly responds by stating that he's said enough already, or "Why don't you believe me".
Most importantly, he said "wake the hell up bw people. it's not "if", it's "when". It'll probably happen this year."
When you start rolling out the "probably's", you're in unconfirmed territory. And unconfirmed is exactly what a rumour is, especially when it's from SC2 coaches who do not set a foot inside BW practice houses.
Maybe Jaedong vs Flying sucked just because Flying has never been a top player and JD was in the middle of a mini-slump... or maybe Flying is too busing practicing 4 Gate timings and JD forgot that only SC2 units shove each other aside. Do you actually think Bogus sucks at TvT because he's trying to make Hellions and Marauders and only realizes he can't too late? Have some dignity, Milkis. That's really what you implying in your post, and you wonder why we question you.
And if you are going to bring it up, the discussion is going to shift this way, and you should be better prepared to defend yourself if you're going to be gracing a PR thread with a post like you did - or else you shouldn't post that at all. This thread should be for gentlemanly and lady-like discussion of the 10 best BW players at the moment, and I regret having to argue this but your post was not warned, so clearly the talk has regrettably been allowed to come to this thread, for now.
Well this explains it all. Flash is practicing SC2 guys, that's why he's become even more beastly at BW than last season. Playing SC2 actually amplifies his godliness at all other games too!! Why didn't I think of that?
On February 15 2012 12:00 Kiett wrote: Well this explains it all. Flash is practicing SC2 guys, that's why he's become even more beastly at BW than last season. Playing SC2 actually amplifies his godliness at all other games too!! Why didn't I think of that?
Actually, it's something I started wondering about starting with BeSt's win over Jaedong. BeSt macro'd up a little, stuck everything in a ball in the middle of the map, and was unstoppable. Sure, JD played that one terribly (Action did a better job vs. Stork's kind of similar play on the same map last night and still lost), but it didn't look like a "normal" BW PvZ, and it did look like the much-maligned SC2 matchup.
Obviously that's not conclusive evidence, more like wild speculation - but we know BW has a lot to inform SC2, what if lessons can be learned the other way as well?
On February 15 2012 11:47 Crisium wrote: Well, he's right that Milkis has gotten more bitter when he has to continually defend his opinion, without evidence, in the face of skeptics.
Pretty much this post is his only attempt to actually explain himself, and subsequently he mostly responds by stating that he's said enough already, or "Why don't you believe me".
Most importantly, he said "wake the hell up bw people. it's not "if", it's "when". It'll probably happen this year."
When you start rolling out the "probably's", you're in unconfirmed territory. And unconfirmed is exactly what a rumour is, especially when it's from SC2 coaches who do not set a foot inside BW practice houses.
Maybe Jaedong vs Flying sucked just because Flying has never been a top player and JD was in the middle of a mini-slump... or maybe Flying is too busing practicing 4 Gate timings and JD forgot that only SC2 units shove each other aside. Do you actually think Bogus sucks at TvT because he's trying to make Hellions and Marauders and only realizes he can't too late? Have some dignity, Milkis. That's really what you implying in your post, and you wonder why we question you.
And if you are going to bring it up, the discussion is going to shift this way, and you should be better prepared to defend yourself if you're going to be gracing a PR thread with a post like you did - or else you shouldn't post that at all. This thread should be for gentlemanly and lady-like discussion of the 10 best BW players at the moment, and I regret having to argue this but your post was not warned, so clearly the talk has regrettably been allowed to come to this thread, for now.
On February 15 2012 12:00 Kiett wrote: Well this explains it all. Flash is practicing SC2 guys, that's why he's become even more beastly at BW than last season. Playing SC2 actually amplifies his godliness at all other games too!! Why didn't I think of that?
Actually, it's something I started wondering about starting with BeSt's win over Jaedong. BeSt macro'd up a little, stuck everything in a ball in the middle of the map, and was unstoppable. Sure, JD played that one terribly (Action did a better job vs. Stork's kind of similar play on the same map last night and still lost), but it didn't look like a "normal" BW PvZ, and it did look like the much-maligned SC2 matchup.
Obviously that's not conclusive evidence, more like wild speculation - but we know BW has a lot to inform SC2, what if lessons can be learned the other way as well?
I'm pretty sure the lesson learned that game was not to go early 4 base in ZvP anymore. This is the first season in a long time that P>Z statistically, as your own analysis of the maps has concluded. Many of the PvZ wins are off of two-base pushes that just don't die. This season, two-base Protoss is damn good (this pleases me, btw).
And you know that Protoss balls of death in BW PvZ are nothing new. I'll admit that just having them in the middle of the map for a while is not the norm, but JD was too busy macroing off his quick 4 bases to be able to offer any kind of pressure.
On February 15 2012 12:00 Kiett wrote: Well this explains it all. Flash is practicing SC2 guys, that's why he's become even more beastly at BW than last season. Playing SC2 actually amplifies his godliness at all other games too!! Why didn't I think of that?
Actually, it's something I started wondering about starting with BeSt's win over Jaedong. BeSt macro'd up a little, stuck everything in a ball in the middle of the map, and was unstoppable. Sure, JD played that one terribly (Action did a better job vs. Stork's kind of similar play on the same map last night and still lost), but it didn't look like a "normal" BW PvZ, and it did look like the much-maligned SC2 matchup.
Obviously that's not conclusive evidence, more like wild speculation - but we know BW has a lot to inform SC2, what if lessons can be learned the other way as well?
Honestly, it just look like BeSt's playstyle man. Plus deathball in PvZ is old as hell (go rewatch free vs jaedong on athena). The hardcore two base "all ins" are also very map dependent too.
When they announced the two half-long seasons I knew immediately what it meant. Anyways back to the present and to the Power Rank: what Protoss will beat Flash this season?
On February 15 2012 11:47 Crisium wrote: Well, he's right that Milkis has gotten more bitter when he has to continually defend his opinion, without evidence, in the face of skeptics.
Pretty much this post is his only attempt to actually explain himself, and subsequently he mostly responds by stating that he's said enough already, or "Why don't you believe me".
Most importantly, he said "wake the hell up bw people. it's not "if", it's "when". It'll probably happen this year."
When you start rolling out the "probably's", you're in unconfirmed territory. And unconfirmed is exactly what a rumour is, especially when it's from SC2 coaches who do not set a foot inside BW practice houses.
Maybe Jaedong vs Flying sucked just because Flying has never been a top player and JD was in the middle of a mini-slump... or maybe Flying is too busing practicing 4 Gate timings and JD forgot that only SC2 units shove each other aside. Do you actually think Bogus sucks at TvT because he's trying to make Hellions and Marauders and only realizes he can't too late? Have some dignity, Milkis. That's really what you implying in your post, and you wonder why we question you.
And if you are going to bring it up, the discussion is going to shift this way, and you should be better prepared to defend yourself if you're going to be gracing a PR thread with a post like you did - or else you shouldn't post that at all. This thread should be for gentlemanly and lady-like discussion of the 10 best BW players at the moment, and I regret having to argue this but your post was not warned, so clearly the talk has regrettably been allowed to come to this thread, for now.
You don't think there's been a little bit too many cheesy strats this season so far, given the number of games?
Don't you find it strange that there's no OSL?
Don't you find it strange that none of the players are complaining about there being too little to prepare for and somehow perfectly feel happy just preparing for the maybe one or two games a week?
Maybe even the change in Ace game format is also to give people less pressure to prepare for BW?
How do you justify paying 250K salary when they only play one game a week? That's A LOT of money.
Don't you find it scary that Team 8 still doesn't have a sponsor? Where does that money come from? KeSPA is paying for it?
Combine that with all of the stuff I said "possibly" might be happening. What's the most likely explanation?
There's *a lot* of pieces out there, and a lot of things that are just really strange, behaviors flip flopping etc. The trail starts from May 2011.
It's not about me being bitter... it's just that it frustrates me that people are so damning about the possibility. But I think it's something that people should accept more and more.
The play this season has been subpar no matter how you justify it... the number of mistakes being made by any player is just absolutely insane. It's sloppy. They're preparing less for each game, despite there being less games in a season.
Anyway back on topic.
I think the PR is really good. I might consider putting Soulkey above Fantasy, but I'm also biased against Fantasy.
1) You don't think there's been a little bit too many cheesy strats this season so far, given the number of games?
Maps.
2) Don't you find it strange that there's no OSL?
League of Legends
3) Don't you find it strange that none of the players are complaining about there being too little to prepare for and somehow perfectly feel happy just preparing for the maybe one or two games a week?
No.
4) Maybe even the change in Ace game format is also to give people less pressure to prepare for BW?
They had to go best of 5 again, but with the reduced teams they could not have an ACE or else too few players would play.
5) How do you justify paying 250K salary when they only play one game a week? That's A LOT of money.
When your team mascot is actually Flash, it's justified.
6) Don't you find it scary that Team 8 still doesn't have a sponsor? Where does that money come from? KeSPA is paying for it?
Yes, the other 7 teams, yes
The play this season has been subpar no matter how you justify it... the number of mistakes being made by any player is just absolutely insane. It's sloppy. They're preparing less for each game, despite there being less games in a season.
I see Flash playing better than ever. I see Stork being typical greatness with flaws (macro monster, shuttle/Reaver micro king, low APM problems with multitasking). Bisu went 5-2 last round despite no Zergs, he's getting too much hate imo. Best is a PvZ boss all of a sudden.
Stats is incredibly solid overall in all matchups. Bogus' TvP is phenomenal (TvT, whatever). Light is still executing TvZ like an art (truly comparable to Flash). Leta is still making 2 Port Wraith look like an auto-win vs Z and is out Vulturing freaking Fantasy head-to-head. Baby has shown some nice domination such as drop play against Wooki and Lift/Land micro vs ZerO.
Speaking of the Crown Prince, Fantasy's bio is better than EVER, and his TvT is still absurdly strong. Last and Turn are showing awesome aggression. Movie's recent ZvP was Bisu-esque. And freaking Neo.g_Soulkey is unbelievably awesome right now (burrowed lings... so good, not to mention I'm still impressed by his game versus Bogus). JangBi still has awesome shuttle micro against Terrans and is only out of PR contention due to all Zergs last round.
I see sloppy play, but I see plenty of things that make me love the play this season. I vehemently disagree that this season is a major step down in quality. At the absolute most, it's proportionally slightly lower due to no aces.
Although if you want to convince me that Sea is practicing SC2, I believe you.
A laundry list of nebulous reasoning is not a reliable source.* If a BW progamer or coach had actually said anything to the effect that players were cutting proleague practice for SC2, wouldn't that be the first evidence quoted? This is the very definition of a rumor. If you come and start spreading a rumor and people ask, "Where did you hear that?" --- please don't take it personally and act like it's a matter of trust.
*Too much cheese? Really? Strategic openings have always been the hallmark of well-prepared games.
Anyway. Jaedong, please stop practicing SC2 and get yourself back on the Power Rank.
1) You don't think there's been a little bit too many cheesy strats this season so far, given the number of games?
Maps.
2) Don't you find it strange that there's no OSL?
League of Legends
3) Don't you find it strange that none of the players are complaining about there being too little to prepare for and somehow perfectly feel happy just preparing for the maybe one or two games a week?
No.
4) Maybe even the change in Ace game format is also to give people less pressure to prepare for BW?
They had to go best of 5 again, but with the reduced teams they could not have an ACE or else too few players would play.
5) How do you justify paying 250K salary when they only play one game a week? That's A LOT of money.
When your team mascot is actually Flash, it's justified.
6) Don't you find it scary that Team 8 still doesn't have a sponsor? Where does that money come from? KeSPA is paying for it?
The play this season has been subpar no matter how you justify it... the number of mistakes being made by any player is just absolutely insane. It's sloppy. They're preparing less for each game, despite there being less games in a season.
I see Flash playing better than ever. I see Stork being typical greatness with flaws (macro monster, shuttle/Reaver micro king, low APM problems with multitasking). Bisu went 5-2 last round despite no Zergs, he's getting too much hate imo. Best is a PvZ boss all of a sudden.
Stats is incredibly solid overall in all matchups. Bogus' TvP is phenomenal (TvT, whatever). Light is still executing TvZ like an art (truly comparable to Flash). Leta is still making 2 Port Wraith look like an auto-win vs Z and is out Vulturing freaking Fantasy head-to-head. Baby has shown some nice domination such as drop play against Wooki and Lift/Land micro vs ZerO.
Speaking of the Crown Prince, Fantasy's bio is better than EVER, and his TvT is still absurdly strong. Last and Turn are showing awesome aggression. Movie's recent ZvP was Bisu-esque. And freaking Neo.g_Soulkey is unbelievably awesome right now (burrowed lings... so good, not to mention I'm still impressed by his game versus Bogus). JangBi still has awesome shuttle micro against Terrans and is only out of PR contention due to all Zergs last round.
I see sloppy play, but I see plenty of things that make me love the play this season. I vehemently disagree that this season is a major step down in quality. At the absolute most, it's proportionally slightly lower due to no aces.
Although if you want to convince me that Sea is practicing SC2, I believe you.
I also think that the fact they have one game a week and the fact there is so much cheese is somehow correlated. When you don't have time to prepare a game, you play standard most of the time. When you have a week to think about it, there is much much more mindgame and room for weird builds, cheese and unusual aggression.
Pressure is higher, people prepare more, the game is just sharper. All the cheese I have seen this season were really well prepared, except for Jaedong rally mistake which was weird and lame.
We are accepting the possibility that these players could be playing SC2 (otherwise we would not care about it at all- if somebody said clearly wrong statement as "the world is flat", will you even care?). The problem is that you posted as if it was definitive while there were only circumstantial evidences.
Whatever, I don't care if I turn out to be delusional, let they remember it as stalwart Brood War diehard til the end!
On February 15 2012 12:00 Kiett wrote: Well this explains it all. Flash is practicing SC2 guys, that's why he's become even more beastly at BW than last season. Playing SC2 actually amplifies his godliness at all other games too!! Why didn't I think of that?
Actually, it's something I started wondering about starting with BeSt's win over Jaedong. BeSt macro'd up a little, stuck everything in a ball in the middle of the map, and was unstoppable. Sure, JD played that one terribly (Action did a better job vs. Stork's kind of similar play on the same map last night and still lost), but it didn't look like a "normal" BW PvZ, and it did look like the much-maligned SC2 matchup.
Obviously that's not conclusive evidence, more like wild speculation - but we know BW has a lot to inform SC2, what if lessons can be learned the other way as well?
Honestly, it just look like BeSt's playstyle man. Plus deathball in PvZ is old as hell (go rewatch free vs jaedong on athena). The hardcore two base "all ins" are also very map dependent too.
The difference in that game was that free didn't get any sort of "ball" till late-game. True, he played merry hell with JD's timing just with his half a control of zeals wandering around the middle of the map all game, but the situation was very different in a couple important ways:
- the map. Athena's a weird map; Ground Zero's standard. - the metagame. Look at JD's build that game and wince. (free's build is more similar to modern PvZ, but equally "poorly" executed compared to today's tighter builds.) - the forces free had in the middle were mainly defensive, not offensive. Aside from denying the inner 12 o'clock, free basically didn't attack between his early game zeal pressure and his end of game deathball.
I'm not really trying to say it's completely new - obviously the ideas of critical mass and armies being more effective when together are not new. And maybe it was just BeSt finally finding something that works. But it's a huge contrast to Bisu's artistic multi-task flailing, say, though really nobody plays like Bisu so I guess that's not really fair.
On February 15 2012 12:00 Kiett wrote: Well this explains it all. Flash is practicing SC2 guys, that's why he's become even more beastly at BW than last season. Playing SC2 actually amplifies his godliness at all other games too!! Why didn't I think of that?
Actually, it's something I started wondering about starting with BeSt's win over Jaedong. BeSt macro'd up a little, stuck everything in a ball in the middle of the map, and was unstoppable. Sure, JD played that one terribly (Action did a better job vs. Stork's kind of similar play on the same map last night and still lost), but it didn't look like a "normal" BW PvZ, and it did look like the much-maligned SC2 matchup.
Obviously that's not conclusive evidence, more like wild speculation - but we know BW has a lot to inform SC2, what if lessons can be learned the other way as well?
Honestly, it just look like BeSt's playstyle man. Plus deathball in PvZ is old as hell (go rewatch free vs jaedong on athena). The hardcore two base "all ins" are also very map dependent too.
The difference in that game was that free didn't get any sort of "ball" till late-game. True, he played merry hell with JD's timing just with his half a control of zeals wandering around the middle of the map all game, but the situation was very different in a couple important ways:
- the map. Athena's a weird map; Ground Zero's standard. - the metagame. Look at JD's build that game and wince. (free's build is more similar to modern PvZ, but equally "poorly" executed compared to today's tighter builds.) - the forces free had in the middle were mainly defensive, not offensive. Aside from denying the inner 12 o'clock, free basically didn't attack between his early game zeal pressure and his end of game deathball.
I'm not really trying to say it's completely new - obviously the ideas of critical mass and armies being more effective when together are not new. And maybe it was just BeSt finally finding something that works. But it's a huge contrast to Bisu's artistic multi-task flailing, say, though really nobody plays like Bisu so I guess that's not really fair.
Yeah it looks like BeSt adapted Bisu's playstyle to hiw own strength, focusing more on macro and less on harass, like exactly what I would expect. Middle-game deathball and two-base all in are nothing new too (go back watch those Movie's all-in from 2009-10, and those bad games by Stork last season). I mean as far as I remember "the Protoss deathball" has always been an expression on tl. For me all that's happening is that other protosses have caught up a bit with Bisu and understood his last year build better, small improvement were made, personnal adaptation... Well yeah you get the idea. Which does not mean Milkis ain't right.
I never imagined Soulkey would have a higher elo then Hydra. I really thought Hydra was becoming the new Jaedong last year. I think the new format is weird this year and it's allowing for certain players to emerge and other players to slip away. The fact the Stars isn't deep enough that Soulkey is pretty much guaranteed to play attributes to his greater and continual improvement this season. However, team 8 which I believe to be 4 players deep is actually having a harder time because they have to guess which players on their team are hot enough right now to take the first 2-3 games. But then you have a team like SKT and KT where there are clear cut players that will be sent every time, which makes them very snipe-able unless of course you are Flash. Also the absurd amount of PvP because of the maps makes me pretty sad, especially since last year was very scary watching Bisu in a PvP where he went DT almost every match. But the sheer amount of protoss players playing now is exciting since 2 years ago there were about 5 good protoss players, but I really miss the exciting zerg presence ZvT and ZvP used to bring to the table. I'm hoping they can overcome the Bisu Build 2.0 and start destroying again. Everyone loves to fear the Swarm.
On February 15 2012 12:00 Kiett wrote: Well this explains it all. Flash is practicing SC2 guys, that's why he's become even more beastly at BW than last season. Playing SC2 actually amplifies his godliness at all other games too!! Why didn't I think of that?
Actually, it's something I started wondering about starting with BeSt's win over Jaedong. BeSt macro'd up a little, stuck everything in a ball in the middle of the map, and was unstoppable. Sure, JD played that one terribly (Action did a better job vs. Stork's kind of similar play on the same map last night and still lost), but it didn't look like a "normal" BW PvZ, and it did look like the much-maligned SC2 matchup.
Obviously that's not conclusive evidence, more like wild speculation - but we know BW has a lot to inform SC2, what if lessons can be learned the other way as well?
Honestly, it just look like BeSt's playstyle man. Plus deathball in PvZ is old as hell (go rewatch free vs jaedong on athena). The hardcore two base "all ins" are also very map dependent too.
The difference in that game was that free didn't get any sort of "ball" till late-game. True, he played merry hell with JD's timing just with his half a control of zeals wandering around the middle of the map all game, but the situation was very different in a couple important ways:
- the map. Athena's a weird map; Ground Zero's standard. - the metagame. Look at JD's build that game and wince. (free's build is more similar to modern PvZ, but equally "poorly" executed compared to today's tighter builds.) - the forces free had in the middle were mainly defensive, not offensive. Aside from denying the inner 12 o'clock, free basically didn't attack between his early game zeal pressure and his end of game deathball.
I'm not really trying to say it's completely new - obviously the ideas of critical mass and armies being more effective when together are not new. And maybe it was just BeSt finally finding something that works. But it's a huge contrast to Bisu's artistic multi-task flailing, say, though really nobody plays like Bisu so I guess that's not really fair.
I think you're overthinking it. BeSt had to do damage or fall behind, there was no timing. If Jaedong didn't screw up his egg block the attack on his third would have looked exactly like the attack on his natural.
I think it's about time to dredge this bad boy back up. Not too many games since the last ranking, but enough has happened that I think some preliminary discussions may be warranted.
So far, this is what I've got as my top 4 for the next ranking:
1. Flash. Anyone who thinks this is wrong is an idiot.
2. Fantasy. Poor Fanta. If Flash weren't around, maybe Fanta would finally get his moment in the sun. It's amazing how a guy who's accomplished as much as Fantasy has can still be living in the shadows, never having achieved #1 on the PR, never being regarded as the best player even for his own race.
3. Stork. Tied for #3 overall in the PL rankings, Stork's only 2 losses in his 8 most recent games come from Fantasy and Flash. He's probably the strongest PvTer on the planet and his PvP and PvZ are among the best as well.
4. Leta. This is a big jump up, but then again, Leta has been the dark horse pick for this PL season. His TvT is looking absolutely stellar. He's responsible for one of Fantasy's 2 losses and his only loss at the hands of Baby was in a spectacular game. His TvZ has recent kills over both Soulkey and Jaedong, admittedly both games played on Jade, and statistically is actually his strongest match-up right now, with a record of 16-4 over the past year, 9-1 in his past 10 and the 4th highest overall vZ ELO (3rd highest among Terran, behind only Flash and Light). Still, I'm hesitant to push Shin Sang Moon over Stork given doubts about the state of his TvP.
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Soulkey is obviously dropping a little, but exactly how much is a tough question. His loss against Flash only showed that he's human and his loss against Leta I think is more of a credit to Leta's ability.
Jaedong deserves some attention for his recent streak (although 3 of those games were present on last PR and one of them was just god awful). JD has now pushed his way Nowheresville to tied for 6th in the PL standings. But I have some doubts over the level of JD's ZvT right now (I don't think it's as good as Soulkey's) and his ZvP is a bit inconsistent. His ZvZ, however, as returned to where it belongs: best in the world.
Stats and Bisu both are looking at big drops unless they pull their acts together. Neither has won since the last ranking, Bisu deciding to follow up his 3 game win streak with a 3 game loss streak and Stats now sitting at 2-4 in his last 6. With Wooki stepping up to the plate (ironically being one of Bisu's recent losses) and Crazy-Hydra coming out of nowhere to achieve a 6-2 record so far this season (2-0 since the last ranking), KT has fared okay. SKT is in a bit more trouble since Best has been slowly falling in the rankings as well. Maybe Sacsri can take over?
1. Flash - I get the feeling the only way an prospective individual league could be competitive from here on out is if Flash and Flash were seeded in different ends of the tournament brackets. 2. Fantasy - When he wins, he's dominant. When he loses, he's still scary. And he's proven himself strong in all three matchups. We really need to get him and Flash on the same stage. 3. Leta - Since the start of the season, There have been 5 Terrans that have been consistently impressive, and four of them have been consistently returning good results. Distinguish the two unmentioned ones with recent wins over several top contenders and you're left with a wraithcaptain who is so damned good at two matchups I can forgive him for being untested in another. 4. Stork - On paper, he eats all three races for breakfast. But the only thing he's proved to be nightmarishly good at is PvP. I'm just not feeling his domination in the other matchups yet, since he's taken more of a sweeper role given his most convincing wins (and convincing losses), like Fantasy did two seasons ago. He's STILL the best damn Protoss in the world, just not what he used to be. 5. Soulkey - His only losses have been to Leta and Flash, who I consider to be his betters for the time being. Though his loss to Leta was kind of humiliating.
I couldn't justify Bisu making it into the last power rank any more than I could justify Jaedong being demoted to CNBC for a few consecutive losses. I stand by this statement for the next power rank as well.
Pure statistics alone doesn't give you a spot. Crazy-H I think will get one since he's a mainstay in KT's current line-up and is 3-0 since the last PR and has actually had a tough match list this season.
Dear... despite being the guy to take down Flash, all the rest of his wins are against weak TvPers (Sea, Light). I don't want to PR a sniper unless he's just so damn good he can't not be ranked and Dear hasn't proven himself that good.
well, PR should come after the regular season ends. 2 more games to Dear to "prove" himself vs other races.
CH may have a spot, but some of his wins were easy: Hydrabusted Stork, BO win vs hyvaa (who didn't even defended his sunk, everyone was like "wtf is hyvaa NOT doing"). However, CH helps KT more than Dear helps STX. Not saying CH>Dear, just giving a point.
I still cannot see Flash losing 1st spot. True, he lost a game, but he is still 14-1, 93% winrate so far, best player overall. Not great weakness (besides Dear predcting what Flash could do). But still, bonjwa is bonjwa. Everyone will put him favourite vs anyone right now.
Also I can't see Fantasy losing 2nd. Maybe we should wait until Khan vs SKT series, but is really hard him to be setted under 3rd if he would start to suck (and I really doubt it).
My bets for nice spots? For players who weren't in the last PR, Crazy Hydra, JD. Who should rise? Stork, Leta Who should down? Bisu, Stats (Stork and Stats could change their spots and they would be perfectly fine).
Dear should get at least a shoutout (everyone can figure why). Same goes for Sacsri, who played a really entertaining game (plague + swarm everywhere). That guy is like how GGPlay used his defilers in lategame. Amazing game vs Bogus.
If Fantasy wins his next games and Flash loses another one, I would say it'd be about time for Flash to be bumped down to second or third, although that's not very likely. :p His loss to Dear was about as awful as they come.
There isn't a whole lot of players who are so impressive as to be clear picks for the bottom ranks of PR again, imo, but CH and soO are two players who may be worth putting in there; I imagine CH more so than soO. JD should also be back as well. Dear I'm not sure about, sure he beat Flash but it's not like it was some sort of an incredible amazing game (nice b/o and nice tricking that scan though), and his other games are hardly impressive. No way Sacsri should be on PR either, by that logic Piano and/or Roro should get a PR spot as well, which would be silly. :p
You said that 1 matchup sniper can get place in PR by consistently winning his games in that MU and beating Flash. I think Dear meet these conditions so I wont be suprised if he get some low position in new power rank. Of course if he wont start to suck from now. The question is: Are there many players that deserve place in PR more?
Is Jaedong a candidate for the power rank again? To be honest, I don't quite know. On one hand he's racked up a decent win streak and played some really sick ZvZ. On the other hand, his wins are all against scrubs and he played like a SKT zerg vs Leta.
On March 01 2012 19:54 writer22816 wrote: Is Jaedong a candidate for the power rank again? To be honest, I don't quite know. On one hand he's racked up a decent win streak and played some really sick ZvZ. On the other hand, his wins are all against scrubs and he played like a SKT zerg vs Leta.
well in all fairness leta did pull some crazy build that disguised his intentions it was genius and not to mention unstoppable if u'r behind and dont know its coming and sarcarsi is a good zerg for an skt one
On March 01 2012 19:37 dobrzeee wrote: You said that 1 matchup sniper can get place in PR by consistently winning his games in that MU and beating Flash. I think Dear meet these conditions so I wont be suprised if he get some low position in new power rank. Of course if he wont start to suck from now. The question is: Are there many players that deserve place in PR more?
That's the sad thing, only Flash, Fantasy, Leta and Soulkey are the players that are consistently solid and reliable. Everyone else is just.......ehhhh
On March 01 2012 19:54 writer22816 wrote: Is Jaedong a candidate for the power rank again? To be honest, I don't quite know. On one hand he's racked up a decent win streak and played some really sick ZvZ. On the other hand, his wins are all against scrubs and he played like a SKT zerg vs Leta.
well, he was cnbc last month and went 4-1 this month - going for a 5 win streak, winning 2 BO loss ZvZ's and a crazy comeback game against Mini, so he certainly is on Power Rank, the question is how high is he getting placed...
If I was to place 10 people from above on the PR right now...
I think the top 5 from the above list deserve a place in the PR (for more reasons than just "good record last month"). To fill the other half, I would go with Dear (obvious reason), Fantasy, Hydra, Soo, and Soulkey.
Shy played some good games but he doesn't give me the impression that he'll be a reliable win. Calm, well... his opponent fucked up a lot of times.
Just for taking down Flash you would put Dear in the top five? *rolls eyes*
I much rather see Leta in the top five as he's smoking at the moment. The guy is a much better fit compared to Hydra and Soo when it comes to the top five. -_-
On March 01 2012 23:45 StarStruck wrote: Just for taking down Flash you would put Dear in the top five? *rolls eyes*
I much rather see Leta in the top five as he's smoking at the moment. The guy is a much better fit compared to Hydra and Soo when it comes to the top five. -_-
-_-
I put the top five of the list at the top of the page as my top five, then filled 6-10 with the ones I explicitly mentioned. *edit: and in no particular order, but I do like the 1-5 grouping and 6-10 grouping. Hmm, but may I should move Fantasy up... I agree that Leta is smoking hot right now, and his victory against the Dong was nothing short of strategic genius.
*edit2: fine I'll just write it out so people don't hate me after they misread what I wrote. If I were to make the PR today...
1. Flash 2. Leta 3. Stork 4. Fantasy 5. Crazy-Hydra 6. Soulkey 7. Hydra 8. Jaedong 9. Dear 10. Soo
Bah, I think spots 3-5 and 6-10 are still shuffle-able, but those are my quick picks.
On March 01 2012 19:37 dobrzeee wrote: You said that 1 matchup sniper can get place in PR by consistently winning his games in that MU and beating Flash. I think Dear meet these conditions so I wont be suprised if he get some low position in new power rank. Of course if he wont start to suck from now. The question is: Are there many players that deserve place in PR more?
That's the sad thing, only Flash, Fantasy, Leta and Soulkey are the players that are consistently solid and reliable. Everyone else is just.......ehhhh
Bisu in his fall from grace. Doesn't deserve a spot this month if JD didn't deserve it last month for the same reasons.
1. Flash - only one loss 2. Leta - because he has the power right now 3. Fantasy - only two loses this season could be in front of leta 4. Stork - solid as ever in this last month 5. Soulkey - solid all season 6. Hydra - has scary potential 7. Crazy-Hydra - on a KT Rollster 8. Jaedong - broke slump 9. Reality - Solid terran 10. SoO - consistent results for SKT
On March 02 2012 01:16 BisuDagger wrote: Bisu in his fall from grace. Doesn't deserve a spot this month if JD didn't deserve it last month for the same reasons.
1. Flash - only one loss 2. Leta - because he has the power right now 3. Fantasy - only two loses this season could be in front of leta 4. Stork - solid as ever in this last month 5. Soulkey - solid all season 6. Hydra - has scary potential 7. Crazy-Hydra - on a KT Rollster 8. Jaedong - broke slump 9. Reality - Solid terran 10. SoO - consistent results for SKT
I disagree with putting Hydra so high. I mean, his record for last month is passable. His record for the season is mediocre. People like Crazy-Hydra has much better momentum as well as season-long record. I ll put Turn above Hydra, or Reality or Jaedong, for that matter.
On March 02 2012 01:16 BisuDagger wrote: Bisu in his fall from grace. Doesn't deserve a spot this month if JD didn't deserve it last month for the same reasons.
1. Flash - only one loss 2. Leta - because he has the power right now 3. Fantasy - only two loses this season could be in front of leta 4. Stork - solid as ever in this last month 5. Soulkey - solid all season 6. Hydra - has scary potential 7. Crazy-Hydra - on a KT Rollster 8. Jaedong - broke slump 9. Reality - Solid terran 10. SoO - consistent results for SKT
I disagree with putting Hydra so high. I mean, his record for last month is passable. His record for the season is mediocre. People like Crazy-Hydra has much better momentum as well as season-long record. I ll put Turn above Hydra, or Reality or Jaedong, for that matter.
Agreed, I'm still clinging on to the fact that he was soooo good in the past year/2 years. And Turn could still retain a spot. They are all interchangeable after the top 5.
It seems like Fantasy is getting penalized because SKT played fewer games in February than any other team...? Simply pulling from the list bks posted at the top of this page doesn't give a good representation of where things are at.
1. Flash / 2. Fantasy is pretty inarguable right now. Both of them are absurdly strong in every match-up.
Leta still has to show us he can TvP at a high level. Historically it's his weak point where he struggles to maintain even 50% wins. Right now his TvP ELO is a meager 2036. By comparison Fantasy is 2182 in his lowest rated match and Flash is 2246 in his lowest rated match.
Hydra has basically been a One Map Wonder this season. Don't see how he can make it as high as 6. Even placing him in the top 10 is still debatable right now. We will have to see how he does as R3 continues.
Although Dear is getting good results, I hate to see someone get so much credit just for sniping one match against weak competition. Yes, you heard me. Fine, he was the lucky bum who achieved a win over Flash, but who else has he beaten? Sea (x2), Light (x2), and FBH, none of whom can TvP to save their lives right now. Sea and Light are currently looking Casy level at TvP.
It's not like we haven't seen Flash get taken out unexpectedly before. M18M? Hyun? Hell, even MVP is arguably more famous for taking a game from Flash than for his SC2 results.
On March 02 2012 05:10 Mortality wrote: What the hell are with these rankings?
It seems like Fantasy is getting penalized because SKT played fewer games in February than any other team...? Simply pulling from the list bks posted at the top of this page doesn't give a good representation of where things are at.
1. Flash / 2. Fantasy is pretty inarguable right now. Both of them are absurdly strong in every match-up.
Leta still has to show us he can TvP at a high level. Historically it's his weak point where he struggles to maintain even 50% wins. Right now his TvP ELO is a meager 2036. By comparison Fantasy is 2182 in his lowest rated match and Flash is 2246 in his lowest rated match.
Hydra has basically been a One Map Wonder this season. Don't see how he can make it as high as 6. Even placing him in the top 10 is still debatable right now. We will have to see how he does as R3 continues.
Although Dear is getting good results, I hate to see someone get so much credit just for sniping one match against weak competition. Yes, you heard me. Fine, he was the lucky bum who achieved a win over Flash, but who else has he beaten? Sea (x2), Light (x2), and FBH, none of whom can TvP to save their lives right now. Sea and Light are currently looking Casy level at TvP.
It's not like we haven't seen Flash get taken out unexpectedly before. M18M? Hyun? Hell, even MVP is arguably more famous for taking a game from Flash than for his SC2 results.
I agree with you that we can't rank people solely based on the results of the games played since the last PR / last month. I believe that the content/level of the games should weigh in heavily as well.
However, isn't the point of monthly PR to highlight those that did well in the past month? Why would we need our unique PR if we were going to argue based on historical ELO's, peaks, KeSPA rankings, and other statistical data, if those were all readily available anyway? I feel like pulling out ELO of specific match-ups is highly irrelevant when we talk about who performed well in the last month. With so little games played, it's indeed hard to evaluate players on every match-up and on different maps, so we'll have to stick to what we get (4-6 games per player) and adjust accordingly. For that reason, Dear gets the nod on my list at #9 because that one game had so much impact in the community, plus he proved to be a diligent progamer - he even studied Flash's scanning patterns to execute his build.
I'm not saying the boundaries of evaluation should be cut so clearly between months that everyone starts even as soon as a PR is released. No matter what, in our conscious there is the dominating figures like Flash who just seem to fit into the #1 spot. What I'm saying is that we should put a major emphasis on the monthly results and try not to look too far back beyond the past month, so that we can put see things "where it's at."
1. Flash: Flash is undisputedly still the best BW player, one loss not withstanding. He pretty much out-metagamed himself. 2. Fantasy: Fantasy has been ridiculously consistent for SKT and is the only reason they have a playofff spot 3. Stork: Stork is looking a bit shaky, but he's still a monster at PvP, and undisputedly the best Protoss player right now. 4. Neo.G_Soulkey: Soulkey has been Star's saving grace, especially considering how Zero has been slumping lately. 5. Leta: Similarly, Leta is the only player who is really consistent for CJ, going 5-0 this round. 6. Jaedong: Jaedong has recovered from his slump, although a little too late in the season to really help. 7. Crazy-Hydra: Crazy-Hydra has outperformed anyone's reasonable expectations, often scoring the third win for KT. 8. TurN: Even though Turn is a bit of a 2-map wonder, he's beaten strong players in every matchup and really helped KHAN. 9/10: BeSt/Stats/BaBy/Hydra/n.Die_soO/Dear/sHy? There are a number of choices for the last couple of spots, all players with some strengths and some weakness. Really hard to say.
On March 02 2012 05:10 Mortality wrote: What the hell are with these rankings?
It seems like Fantasy is getting penalized because SKT played fewer games in February than any other team...? Simply pulling from the list bks posted at the top of this page doesn't give a good representation of where things are at.
1. Flash / 2. Fantasy is pretty inarguable right now. Both of them are absurdly strong in every match-up.
Leta still has to show us he can TvP at a high level. Historically it's his weak point where he struggles to maintain even 50% wins. Right now his TvP ELO is a meager 2036. By comparison Fantasy is 2182 in his lowest rated match and Flash is 2246 in his lowest rated match.
Hydra has basically been a One Map Wonder this season. Don't see how he can make it as high as 6. Even placing him in the top 10 is still debatable right now. We will have to see how he does as R3 continues.
Although Dear is getting good results, I hate to see someone get so much credit just for sniping one match against weak competition. Yes, you heard me. Fine, he was the lucky bum who achieved a win over Flash, but who else has he beaten? Sea (x2), Light (x2), and FBH, none of whom can TvP to save their lives right now. Sea and Light are currently looking Casy level at TvP.
It's not like we haven't seen Flash get taken out unexpectedly before. M18M? Hyun? Hell, even MVP is arguably more famous for taking a game from Flash than for his SC2 results.
I agree with you that we can't rank people solely based on the results of the games played since the last PR / last month. I believe that the content/level of the games should weigh in heavily as well.
However, isn't the point of monthly PR to highlight those that did well in the past month? Why would we need our unique PR if we were going to argue based on historical ELO's, peaks, KeSPA rankings, and other statistical data, if those were all readily available anyway? I feel like pulling out ELO of specific match-ups is highly irrelevant when we talk about who performed well in the last month. With so little games played, it's indeed hard to evaluate players on every match-up and on different maps, so we'll have to stick to what we get (4-6 games per player) and adjust accordingly. For that reason, Dear gets the nod on my list at #9 because that one game had so much impact in the community, plus he proved to be a diligent progamer - he even studied Flash's scanning patterns to execute his build.
I'm not saying the boundaries of evaluation should be cut so clearly between months that everyone starts even as soon as a PR is released. No matter what, in our conscious there is the dominating figures like Flash who just seem to fit into the #1 spot. What I'm saying is that we should put a major emphasis on the monthly results and try not to look too far back beyond the past month, so that we can put see things "where it's at."
1) PR is no longer released monthly due to the low number of games. The next PR will be out at the end of R3 or maybe even after the playoffs, depending on when OSL returns (if ever). I bumped this thread because we are almost halfway through R3, not because PR release is imminent.
2) PR is NOT simply a recount of all the things that happened over the past month, and it never has been. Go back to nearly the beginning when Savior went 0-2 during a ranking period but was virtually unaffected (only dropping from 2 to 3 behind Bisu who had beaten him 3-0 in MSL and NaDa who had beaten him 3-1 in OGN Masters).
You ask why we would care about overall historical statistical data when we already have ELO and KeSPA? Because neither of those rankings attempts to put that information into perspective. For example, Bisu was #1 by ELO for a long time over the past year, but could anyone who understands Starcraft say with a straight face that Bisu was ahead of Flash? Bisu went month after month without facing serious challenge, whereas Flash was in MSL and OSL and facing the toughest competition. Even now Bisu is #3 by ELO, but that's more of a remnant of the ELO he achieved last season.
But that doesn't mean that ELO should be ignored as an indicator just because ELO already ranks players. Nobody is saying to just copy ELO, which currently places Bisu at #4 and Hydra at #7, but when I want to compare Leta's TvP to Fantasy's, for example, the difference of a 2036 ELO ratings vs a 2236 ELO rating tells me that Leta has something to prove before I can take for granted that his TvP is anywhere in the same galaxy.
3) Conversely to to point 2, what would be the point of a ranking that only considers last month's results? It's not hard to fiddle with the date settings in TLPD and with only PL in action, it's even more of a joke since I can just open up the [R&S] thread which shows the results of literally every game played this season.
4) Understanding Flash's scanner patterns was a good play, but Dear himself admitted that it was a total gamble and that the build he used lost more often than it won in practice. This is not like Dear has proven himself to be an S-class level sniper. At least when Snow was being built up as a Terran killer he was in the middle of a 9 game win streak with wins over Flash, Fantasy, Hiya, and Really (x2) who was really good at TvP back then.
I'd like to see Dear do more to prove himself before he's considered rank worthy. It's a HUGE joke when you can have only 1 meaningful win ALL season long and get on the rank JUST for that.
Dear for #2. He beat Flash. I mean, areufkingsrs? He beat Flash. That by itself deserves the absolutely most brilliant reward it can have. Because i have not seen a national holiday in dear's honor, i think he deserves to be #2.
On March 01 2012 19:37 dobrzeee wrote: You said that 1 matchup sniper can get place in PR by consistently winning his games in that MU and beating Flash. I think Dear meet these conditions so I wont be suprised if he get some low position in new power rank. Of course if he wont start to suck from now. The question is: Are there many players that deserve place in PR more?
That's the sad thing, only Flash, Fantasy, Leta and Soulkey are the players that are consistently solid and reliable. Everyone else is just.......ehhhh
results-wise leta has a great record, but i'm just not convinced by his play. a lot of his wins seem to come from gimmicky builds (2 port wraith anyone?) or his opponents failing to silly timing attacks. he's past his prime.
On March 02 2012 13:31 Motivate wrote: results-wise leta has a great record, but i'm just not convinced by his play. a lot of his wins seem to come from gimmicky builds (2 port wraith anyone?) or his opponents failing to silly timing attacks. he's past his prime.
Hey don't hate on strategical plays. You wouldn't discount all of Boxer's wins, would you?
Leta's 2-port wraith is far from gimmicky; it's a thing of sheer beauty. Pew pew, pew pew, it cried, as it danced through the sky.
Anyway, if you actually watch his games from this month, none of them used 2-port wraith, so that's a moot point. Leta dominated Fantasy with sick vulture play (the irony), destroyed Jaedong with an ingenious bio switch, and stomped SK into the ground with a brilliantly executed bio-mech attack.
Can't say much for his TvP, but he hasn't had a lot of chances to show it off. Hey, at least he beat Kal, who isn't exactly a pushover this season.
2 port is nowhere close to unbeatable, and Leta has definitely lost with it to players not named Jaedong. It's also a build that comes and goes a bit since it's somewhat map dependent and very timing dependent.
I don't agree with holding Leta back due to the gimmicky nature of his strategies. A player who can successfully pull off gimmicks on a routine basis deserves as much credit as a player who achieves a comparable win rate through boring standard play. It is not as though Leta is riding on the wave of a metagame advantage. The reality is that with Flash, Light and even Fantasy attracting so much attention with their TvZ, Leta has slid along as a dark horse powerhouse. Since late 2010 he's gone 5-2 against Soulkey, 2-1 against Zero and 2-0 against Jaedong. Granted, nobody who understands this game would have picked him as the favorite over Zero or JD in a BoX during the middle of last year so those stats can be a little bit misleading when taken at face value, but the point is that he's solid as a rock in TvZ and in TvT his current W/L ratio does not do him justice. If you take the time to look at his games, he's very solid in TvT as well.
The reason why I don't want to see Leta catapulting to #2 on the ranking is that I don't think a few high profile wins are comparable to the scariness of Fantasy and I don't think Leta is as well-rounded as Stork. Fantasy and Stork can be sent out in any match-up against almost any opponent and walk away with almost certain victory. They have that kind of power.
I would expect Fantasy to hold the #2 spot down quite stylishly for the month. While Leta has indeed been sweeping the floor, the terrorist has been given more opportunities to prove himself over the season and capitalized on every one. He doesn't fall easy and I don't think he ever will.
Agreed with Kiett regarding Leta's builds. I've been looking past the gimmicks since I first heard of Leta, and he has continuously impressed me. Who knew T could be fun to watch in this post-oov macro age?
I would however rank Leta above Stork, because while both of them are relatively untested in their toughest matchup and Stork has had a bigger workload, the only thing I can really give Stork from his performance this year is his extreme dominance in PvP. Yes his only losses in PvT have been hard-fought losses against motherfucking Fantasy and Flash, but if he were to actually beat either of them (or Bogus) then I would be able to say he was comparable to Leta-on-a-hot-streak in terms of the fear factor. I can't deny that there's something weird and shaky about Stork's play that Stats didn't seem to have in the first two rounds.
Not that anyone challenges Stork as the scariest P in Proleague. Especially not Bisu.
On March 02 2012 18:42 Mirabel_ wrote: I would expect Fantasy to hold the #2 spot down quite stylishly for the month. While Leta has indeed been sweeping the floor, the terrorist has been given more opportunities to prove himself over the season and capitalized on every one. He doesn't fall easy and I don't think he ever will.
Agreed with Kiett regarding Leta's builds. I've been looking past the gimmicks since I first heard of Leta, and he has continuously impressed me. Who knew T could be fun to watch in this post-oov macro age?
I would however rank Leta above Stork, because while both of them are relatively untested in their toughest matchup and Stork has had a bigger workload, the only thing I can really give Stork from his performance this year is his extreme dominance in PvP. Yes his only losses in PvT have been hard-fought losses against motherfucking Fantasy and Flash, but if he were to actually beat either of them (or Bogus) then I would be able to say he was comparable to Leta-on-a-hot-streak in terms of the fear factor. I can't deny that there's something weird and shaky about Stork's play that Stats didn't seem to have in the first two rounds.
Not that anyone challenges Stork as the scariest P in Proleague. Especially not Bisu.
I totally don't appreciate that last line T_T
Anyway, i actually do feel that Stork has been more remarkable than Leta this season. I know the numbers don't support that argument too well (Leta plays like a beast this season), but i just feel more.. awesomeness oozing out of Stork.. Just a feeling, but that's usually what i use to gauge a player's strength anw. Would i want my favourite player to face him? Stork feels like a tremendous force this season, whereas Leta pretty much fly under the radar for the most part, at least my radar.
1 Flash 2 Fantasy 3 Stork/SK 4 Stork/Leta/SK 5 Leta/SK
I mean, Stork can be placed 3rd or 4th (not less), SK would be 3rd, 4th or 5th. I still need to see more about Leta, but he hardly deserves less than 5th.
6, 7, 8, 9, 10 CH, JD, Stats, Hydra, Turn, Reality, Baby, Soo, Best. My two cents so far.
-After JDs win over Soulkey, they are tied at 11:6 for best zerg Soulkeys play just feels better (hard for me to say) -next one after ist c-h, with 7:2 he has a nice ratio, but only 9 games played.(hes on a 6game winstreak now, so we will have to see) -calm is getting a view wins of good ZvP, we have no idea about his ZvT atm. - Hydra and Effort are both just barely over 50% winrate with Effort looking a bit shaky to me and Hydras only 2 non ZvZ wins are over Brave and Sea (lol).
seems like not the best season for zerg.
Conclusion: The next view games will decide wether Soulkey or JD will earn the top zerg spot, (both should have a garanteed spot in the next PR imo) and wether CrazyH can keep his groove going. If he can get some important wins for KT in the next matches, he should be Cnbc at least.
If I were to pick right now, I think I'd put JD as #6. I'm not ready to put JD above SK because I think SK looks a lot more well-rounded at the moment. JD is starting to rely on his ZvZ to carry him.
But, that could change by the end of the round.
I think Calm is in the running for a low rank. I know he also looks like a bit of a one match wonder right now, but if you take a look at his list of Protoss kills it's pretty significant. About as good as you'll get without taking either Bisu and/or Stork. ZvZ and ZvT he's also faced difficult opponents. Right now Calm is the player who is carrying the weight on the STX roster.
On March 05 2012 00:33 Mortality wrote: If I were to pick right now, I think I'd put JD as #6. I'm not ready to put JD above SK because I think SK looks a lot more well-rounded at the moment. JD is starting to rely on his ZvZ to carry him.
Both Jaedong and Soulkey played an equal amount of ZvZ, with Jaedong sitting at 5-1 and Soulkey at 4-2. I too think that Soulkey should stay above Jaedong, but saying that Jaedong is relying on ZvZ is kind of a weird statement since Soulkey is pretty much in the same situation.
Anyways, right now my ranking would go 1. Flash 2. Fantasy 3. Stork 4. Leta 5. Soulkey 6. Jaedong 7. Crazy Hydra 8. Bisu 9. Dear 10. Best
On March 05 2012 07:45 Ozarugold wrote: Anyways, right now my ranking would go 1. Flash 2. Fantasy 3. Stork 4. Leta 5. Soulkey 6. Jaedong 7. Crazy Hydra 8. Bisu 9. Dear 10. Best
I would like you to explain these 3 being on PR. Best and Bisu aren-t looking good at all (mostly Bisu) and Dear only merit is beating Flash. I'm sure that can't be enough for PR standars,
On March 05 2012 07:45 Ozarugold wrote: Anyways, right now my ranking would go 1. Flash 2. Fantasy 3. Stork 4. Leta 5. Soulkey 6. Jaedong 7. Crazy Hydra 8. Bisu 9. Dear 10. Best
I would like you to explain these 3 being on PR. Best and Bisu aren-t looking good at all (mostly Bisu) and Dear only merit is beating Flash. I'm sure that can't be enough for PR standars,
Beating flash is an achievement no one else can boast of this season, plus his only losses this season has been to flash and best, steadily becoming a workhorse PvT sniper for stx, you have to admit hes bringing home wins quite consistently
On March 05 2012 07:45 Ozarugold wrote: Anyways, right now my ranking would go 1. Flash 2. Fantasy 3. Stork 4. Leta 5. Soulkey 6. Jaedong 7. Crazy Hydra 8. Bisu 9. Dear 10. Best
I would like you to explain these 3 being on PR. Best and Bisu aren-t looking good at all (mostly Bisu) and Dear only merit is beating Flash. I'm sure that can't be enough for PR standars,
Bisu - This is a typo, I meant to put Bisu at 10th and Best at 8th. Anyways, it was either Bisu or Stats at 10th and I Bisu just barely edged out Stats because it was really difficult to choose a 10th guy and I just chose the one that everyone seemed to like. Dear - Despite seemingly being a one matchup wonder, he still has the same record has Crazy Hydra and that should at least pull a little weight. Plus the whole beating Flash thing. Best - Although he had a pretty rough January, from the end of January he is 4-2 with one of his losses coming from the hands of Flash.
Aside from the top 7, there really are no strong players at the moment. With the lack of games, it's really hard to gauge a player's strength so I take into past performances a little more when figuring out the ranking.
On March 05 2012 07:45 Ozarugold wrote: Anyways, right now my ranking would go 1. Flash 2. Fantasy 3. Stork 4. Leta 5. Soulkey 6. Jaedong 7. Crazy Hydra 8. Bisu 9. Dear 10. Best
I would like you to explain these 3 being on PR. Best and Bisu aren-t looking good at all (mostly Bisu) and Dear only merit is beating Flash. I'm sure that can't be enough for PR standars,
Bisu - This is a typo, I meant to put Bisu at 10th and Best at 8th. Anyways, it was either Bisu or Stats at 10th and I Bisu just barely edged out Stats because it was really difficult to choose a 10th guy and I just chose the one that everyone seemed to like. Dear - Despite seemingly being a one matchup wonder, he still has the same record has Crazy Hydra and that should at least pull a little weight. Plus the whole beating Flash thing. Best - Although he had a pretty rough January, from the end of January he is 4-2 with one of his losses coming from the hands of Flash.
Aside from the top 7, there really are no strong players at the moment. With the lack of games, it's really hard to gauge a player's strength so I take into past performances a little more when figuring out the ranking.
With regards to your first post: Soulkey and JD have faced a comparable level of Terrans with on the face only a 1 game difference (SK 3-3, JD 2-3), but if you've watched the games, JD isn't looking as good. In ZvP again there is only a 1 game difference, but SK has faced a harder line-up and frankly looked better against it. So no, I stand by what I said exactly. JD's ZvZ is what's carrying him, not only numerically, but in terms of quality of performance.
Regarding your second post and the replies to it: -I think Best is earning a spot back on the ranking. So far he's 4-1 in R3 with his only loss to Flash and although shy, Dear, and Reality aren't much for competition, Best is finally winning games other than just PvZ. And after having watched Best for years, I cannot believe I just said that.
-Bisu needs to up his game if he wants back on the ranking. His only win this round to Jangbi was not exactly his best ever performance.
-I've talked about Dear before, but I'm going to reiterate that other than beating Flash he has only beaten Terrans with Casy level TvP ability. Power Rank is supposed to scrutinize results to measure their value past a simple "win" or "loss." Their are other players like Calm (who is actually playing tough opponents and has been winning) and even Zero (3-1 on the round... where have you been all season) who are better suited to that 10th spot.
On March 05 2012 07:45 Ozarugold wrote: Anyways, right now my ranking would go 1. Flash 2. Fantasy 3. Stork 4. Leta 5. Soulkey 6. Jaedong 7. Crazy Hydra 8. Bisu 9. Dear 10. Best
I would like you to explain these 3 being on PR. Best and Bisu aren-t looking good at all (mostly Bisu) and Dear only merit is beating Flash. I'm sure that can't be enough for PR standars,
Bisu - This is a typo, I meant to put Bisu at 10th and Best at 8th. Anyways, it was either Bisu or Stats at 10th and I Bisu just barely edged out Stats because it was really difficult to choose a 10th guy and I just chose the one that everyone seemed to like. Dear - Despite seemingly being a one matchup wonder, he still has the same record has Crazy Hydra and that should at least pull a little weight. Plus the whole beating Flash thing. Best - Although he had a pretty rough January, from the end of January he is 4-2 with one of his losses coming from the hands of Flash.
Aside from the top 7, there really are no strong players at the moment. With the lack of games, it's really hard to gauge a player's strength so I take into past performances a little more when figuring out the ranking.
With regards to your first post: Soulkey and JD have faced a comparable level of Terrans with on the face only a 1 game difference (SK 3-3, JD 2-3), but if you've watched the games, JD isn't looking as good. In ZvP again there is only a 1 game difference, but SK has faced a harder line-up and frankly looked better against it. So no, I stand by what I said exactly. JD's ZvZ is what's carrying him, not only numerically, but in terms of quality of performance.
Regarding your second post and the replies to it: -I think Best is earning a spot back on the ranking. So far he's 4-1 in R3 with his only loss to Flash and although shy, Dear, and Reality aren't much for competition, Best is finally winning games other than just PvZ. And after having watched Best for years, I cannot believe I just said that.
-Bisu needs to up his game if he wants back on the ranking. His only win this round to Jangbi was not exactly his best ever performance.
-I've talked about Dear before, but I'm going to reiterate that other than beating Flash he has only beaten Terrans with Casy level TvP ability. Power Rank is supposed to scrutinize results to measure their value past a simple "win" or "loss." Their are other players like Calm (who is actually playing tough opponents and has been winning) and even Zero (3-1 on the round... where have you been all season) who are better suited to that 10th spot.
This is a very accurate representation of PR this past month imo. You bring up a lot of good points that I empathize with lol.
On March 05 2012 10:41 Sethronu wrote: I'm surprised nobody talks about Soo at all, he's been doing very well recently.
That's true, he's knocked off a few big names and his losses are mostly to big names. But he pretty much looks like a one map wonder right now. I'd be more impressed if he beat Light on say, Sniper Ridge, rather than a Terran graveyard.
Something that posters need to remember when looking at player stats is that there's a very real difference between a top player who plays on multiple maps against multiple races vs a dedicated sniper playing on a map like Chain Reaction where you only need to prepare 2 match-ups (vP and vZ) unless you're facing Team 8 which frequently sends Baby on that map. I find it telling that Soo wasn't having success until he took the dedicated sniper role. That's not something that should be entirely held against him, but I'm going to favor someone with a less impressive record on the round but greater diversity.
On March 05 2012 07:45 Ozarugold wrote: Anyways, right now my ranking would go 1. Flash 2. Fantasy 3. Stork 4. Leta 5. Soulkey 6. Jaedong 7. Crazy Hydra 8. Bisu 9. Dear 10. Best
I would like you to explain these 3 being on PR. Best and Bisu aren-t looking good at all (mostly Bisu) and Dear only merit is beating Flash. I'm sure that can't be enough for PR standars,
Bisu - This is a typo, I meant to put Bisu at 10th and Best at 8th. Anyways, it was either Bisu or Stats at 10th and I Bisu just barely edged out Stats because it was really difficult to choose a 10th guy and I just chose the one that everyone seemed to like. Dear - Despite seemingly being a one matchup wonder, he still has the same record has Crazy Hydra and that should at least pull a little weight. Plus the whole beating Flash thing. Best - Although he had a pretty rough January, from the end of January he is 4-2 with one of his losses coming from the hands of Flash.
Aside from the top 7, there really are no strong players at the moment. With the lack of games, it's really hard to gauge a player's strength so I take into past performances a little more when figuring out the ranking.
With regards to your first post: Soulkey and JD have faced a comparable level of Terrans with on the face only a 1 game difference (SK 3-3, JD 2-3), but if you've watched the games, JD isn't looking as good. In ZvP again there is only a 1 game difference, but SK has faced a harder line-up and frankly looked better against it. So no, I stand by what I said exactly. JD's ZvZ is what's carrying him, not only numerically, but in terms of quality of performance.
Regarding your second post and the replies to it: -I think Best is earning a spot back on the ranking. So far he's 4-1 in R3 with his only loss to Flash and although shy, Dear, and Reality aren't much for competition, Best is finally winning games other than just PvZ. And after having watched Best for years, I cannot believe I just said that.
-Bisu needs to up his game if he wants back on the ranking. His only win this round to Jangbi was not exactly his best ever performance.
-I've talked about Dear before, but I'm going to reiterate that other than beating Flash he has only beaten Terrans with Casy level TvP ability. Power Rank is supposed to scrutinize results to measure their value past a simple "win" or "loss." Their are other players like Calm (who is actually playing tough opponents and has been winning) and even Zero (3-1 on the round... where have you been all season) who are better suited to that 10th spot.
True true, you bring up good points. I kind of glazed over Zero since he gets overshadowed by Soulkey but I think he deserves a spot on the ranking.
Regarding Dear, I know that the opponents that he beats are not that great at TvP (save for Flash) but results are results. However, if he doesn't make the ranking it's understandable. As you said, the quality of opponents are not that great.
As for Jaedong vs Soulkey, looking purely on results, they both had fairly comparable losses. Both lost against Leta on Jade, both lost against Flash and against Best. For Jaedong that leaves a loss Effort, Canata, and Snow. For Soulkey, that is Firebathero, Hydra and Jaedong. In terms of opposition, I think their losses came from fairly equal opponents. But then once you look at the quality of games, then what you say holds true. However I just find it odd, not wrong, that you would say that Jaedong is relying on ZvZ since he's always relied on ZvZ to carry him. I guess what I'm trying to say that Jaedong is no longer the player he once was and your statement kind of rubbed me the wrong way.
Zero is unfortunately very easy to overlook right now.
I wouldn't tear my hair out if Dear got ranked in the 10th spot, but at the end of the day there surely must be better choices.
JD has always relied on ZvZ to carry him? Up until recently he's been a monster at all three match-ups. At times ZvP was his best and at times ZvT his best. Overall he's probably the most well-rounded S-class Zerg in history.
On March 11 2012 03:41 gen.Sun wrote: This is probably not enough to cause Flash to lose #1. But maybe another loss would?
No.
Flash has a 15-2 record and because he lost twice you want to drop him? I disagree because his play is just perfect (other than hid losses haha) and his record is pretty awesome. I dont see Flash losing his number 1 spot for a loooong time.
On March 11 2012 03:41 gen.Sun wrote: This is probably not enough to cause Flash to lose #1. But maybe another loss would?
No.
Flash has a 15-2 record and because he lost twice you want to drop him? I disagree because his play is just perfect (other than hid losses haha) and his record is pretty awesome. I dont see Flash losing his number 1 spot for a loooong time.
I agree.
Outside of his losses, Flash looked completely indomitable. Fantasy's record may be almost as good, but he doesn't look nearly as Invincible as Flash does during the season. Just look at today's game vs Jaehoon, for example, i wouldn't have been surprised if Fanta had typed out at any moment. It was Hoonie's mistake that gave Fanta a chance to take back the game. I don't get this feeling during any of Flash's wins this season, those were all clean wins that left no doubt as to who the victor would have been.
Even during his losses, Flash's over-the-top optimisation worked against him in the Dear game. His decision to cancel turret was a good one given the information he had, imho. Plopping down the 3rd CC in front of the Zealot in M18M's game was.. bad? xD
Still, 1: Flash, 2: Fanta is pretty locked for this month.
On March 11 2012 04:10 ffreakk wrote: Just look at today's game vs Jaehoon, for example, i wouldn't have been surprised if Fanta had typed out at any moment.
Did anyone else experience audible laughter at the irony of this statement?
On March 11 2012 04:10 ffreakk wrote: Just look at today's game vs Jaehoon, for example, i wouldn't have been surprised if Fanta had typed out at any moment.
Did anyone else experience audible laughter at the irony of this statement?
On March 11 2012 04:10 ffreakk wrote: Just look at today's game vs Jaehoon, for example, i wouldn't have been surprised if Fanta had typed out at any moment.
Did anyone else experience audible laughter at the irony of this statement?
Yes. We have an ENTIRE thread devoted to why ffreakk's statement holds no merit.
n.Die_soO Record: 6 - 0 Wins over:LighT, Movie, StatsBrave, Peace, Sang Pros: 100% win rate this round. Cons: Although he has been winning, his actual play hasn't seemed that convincing to me. Record relies mostly on his ZvP. Verdict: Should probably get a low spot on this months PR.
BeSt Record: 5 -1 Wins: Tyson, Reality, Dear, sHy, EffOrt Losses: Flash Pros: Only loss to Flash, 12-7 this season Cons: Poor performance in round 2 Verdict: Should probably return on the PR, spot in the lower half?
Leta Record: 5 - 1 Wins:Bogus, Neo.G_Soulkey, Jaedong, Sharp, Fantasy Losses: Flash Pros: Wins over strong opponents, Only loss to flash, 10-4 this season Cons: His vP is almost untested. Verdict:Similar position as Best.
Crazy-Hydra Record: 4 - 0 Wins: Kal, hyvaa, sHy, By.Sun Pros: 100% win rate this round, 80% win rate over the whole season. Has been tearing up both Ps and Zs. Cons: vT? Verdict: Place in the lower half of PR.
Record: 4 - 0 Wins: ZerO, Alone, mini, Action Pros: 100% record this round, 13-5 overall Cons: Relatively weak opponents. Verdict: 3rd or 4th place on PR
Dear Record: 4 - 1 Wins:firebathero, Flash, LighT, Sea Losses:BeSt Pros: Win over flash. 7-2 over the whole season. Cons: Pretty much only plays vT. Verdict: Candidate for a #10 spot.
Fantasy Record: 4 - 1 Wins:Jaehoon, Calm, ZerO, Mind Losses: Leta Pros: Has looked strong all season. Cons: Looked rather vulnerable in his game vs Jaehoon Verdict: keep at #2.
Calm Record: 4 - 1 Wins: Horang2, Kal, Brave, Killer Losses:Fantasy Pros: 8-4 record in the whole season. Cons:Wins over weak opponents. Mostly vP sniper. Verdict: Candidate for a low spot.
On March 12 2012 00:46 sM.Zik wrote: Jaedong is also 4-1 (is it 5-1 ?) in Round 3, he should be consider to at least get back in the lower half of the PR imo.
Jaedong is 3-1 in round 3 and 11-6 overall. But I agree, JD should definitely be considered for a spot on the lower half. (Think about it: Does anybody seriously think that soo projects more power than JD? I certainly don't.)
On March 12 2012 01:13 sM.Zik wrote: Oh i wasnt sure when R3 started.. so 3-1 but he still have one match left to play lets hope T8 will send him this time..
For the PR it would very interesting if we could see a JD vs CH match-up. But there is a good chance that team 8 will give its lesser players some air time, since there is nothing to win or lose for them. Don't be surprised to see Dream.t)check or Speed come out.
I know this is borderline insane... but is anyone else a little bit tempted to push fantasy up to #1? He's 4-0 since the last PR (to Flash's 4-2). Granted, he's had slightly easier opponents... but he hasn't lost to nobodies (though both admittedly with very good PvT). Also factoring in is fantasy's win - you could almost say comeback win - over Jaehoon, who's also a solid PvT player.
Mostly I'm wondering whether people are starting to figure out Flash's PvT (for now). He could have lost to Stork despite an abusive early game build if Stork hadn't gone all in on carriers AND lost his goons; he beat BeSt with a bunker rush; he's now running an 0-2 streak against Protoss. I'm not suggesting panic, and I don't really think there's sufficient evidence to actually knock him out of the #1 spot yet. But I do think it's something to start keeping an eye on, especially with fantasy just inches behind him in terms of performance and record.
On March 12 2012 01:42 VGhost wrote: I know this is borderline insane... but is anyone else a little bit tempted to push fantasy up to #1? He's 4-0 since the last PR (to Flash's 4-2). Granted, he's had slightly easier opponents... but he hasn't lost to nobodies (though both admittedly with very good PvT). Also factoring in is fantasy's win - you could almost say comeback win - over Jaehoon, who's also a solid PvT player.
Mostly I'm wondering whether people are starting to figure out Flash's PvT (for now). He could have lost to Stork despite an abusive early game build if Stork hadn't gone all in on carriers AND lost his goons; he beat BeSt with a bunker rush; he's now running an 0-2 streak against Protoss. I'm not suggesting panic, and I don't really think there's sufficient evidence to actually knock him out of the #1 spot yet. But I do think it's something to start keeping an eye on, especially with fantasy just inches behind him in terms of performance and record.
As Has been said before on the exact same page on which you posted, no, FlaSh will be #1 for a looong time.
And Fantasy? No, I mean Fanatasy is a really good player, but he has had easier opponents than Flash, and FlaSh just has better play, better sense and better mechanics. FlaSh beats his opponents good, and when I say good I mean there is no doubt FlaSh would win a bo3 or o5 against any given player. FlaSh becoming predictable? Maybe a little, his fast third vT build is starting to get hard-countered but he will find a way to do it safely or he will just play any other style of PvT and win because of better macro and gamesense. And his vT and vZ have never looked so impossibly perfect than they do now.
On March 12 2012 01:42 VGhost wrote: I know this is borderline insane... but is anyone else a little bit tempted to push fantasy up to #1? He's 4-0 since the last PR (to Flash's 4-2). Granted, he's had slightly easier opponents... but he hasn't lost to nobodies (though both admittedly with very good PvT). Also factoring in is fantasy's win - you could almost say comeback win - over Jaehoon, who's also a solid PvT player.
Mostly I'm wondering whether people are starting to figure out Flash's PvT (for now). He could have lost to Stork despite an abusive early game build if Stork hadn't gone all in on carriers AND lost his goons; he beat BeSt with a bunker rush; he's now running an 0-2 streak against Protoss. I'm not suggesting panic, and I don't really think there's sufficient evidence to actually knock him out of the #1 spot yet. But I do think it's something to start keeping an eye on, especially with fantasy just inches behind him in terms of performance and record.
Interesting perspective.
I was actually very impressed w him in the game vs Stork (almost as much as i was with Stork's valiant hold). That (abusive) early game attack was brilliant.
But yea, now that you mention it, his recent vP games has left some (very very tiny) room for doubt. Nothing is wrong with Bunker Rushing, but it does mean that his mid-late prowess isn't tested. And twice now his mid-game transition has been abused by relatively no-name Protosses.
Hopefully he bump into some good Tosses in the play-off, and clear away these doubts, or at least provide us with entertaining games. Stork vs Flash rematch would be cool.
On March 12 2012 01:42 VGhost wrote: I know this is borderline insane... but is anyone else a little bit tempted to push fantasy up to #1? He's 4-0 since the last PR (to Flash's 4-2). Granted, he's had slightly easier opponents... but he hasn't lost to nobodies (though both admittedly with very good PvT). Also factoring in is fantasy's win - you could almost say comeback win - over Jaehoon, who's also a solid PvT player.
Mostly I'm wondering whether people are starting to figure out Flash's PvT (for now). He could have lost to Stork despite an abusive early game build if Stork hadn't gone all in on carriers AND lost his goons; he beat BeSt with a bunker rush; he's now running an 0-2 streak against Protoss. I'm not suggesting panic, and I don't really think there's sufficient evidence to actually knock him out of the #1 spot yet. But I do think it's something to start keeping an eye on, especially with fantasy just inches behind him in terms of performance and record.
I really do think Flash will be saving his most solid play, for the finals. There will be no bunker rushing protoss, in my opinion.
Regardless, Flash's mechanics are still superb- the best in my opinion. His tank control is excellent. His losses are due to being overly greedy against an aggressive and prepared opponent, and I doubt he will make that mistake in the finals.
On March 12 2012 01:42 VGhost wrote: I know this is borderline insane... but is anyone else a little bit tempted to push fantasy up to #1? He's 4-0 since the last PR (to Flash's 4-2). Granted, he's had slightly easier opponents... but he hasn't lost to nobodies (though both admittedly with very good PvT). Also factoring in is fantasy's win - you could almost say comeback win - over Jaehoon, who's also a solid PvT player.
Mostly I'm wondering whether people are starting to figure out Flash's PvT (for now). He could have lost to Stork despite an abusive early game build if Stork hadn't gone all in on carriers AND lost his goons; he beat BeSt with a bunker rush; he's now running an 0-2 streak against Protoss. I'm not suggesting panic, and I don't really think there's sufficient evidence to actually knock him out of the #1 spot yet. But I do think it's something to start keeping an eye on, especially with fantasy just inches behind him in terms of performance and record.
I really do think Flash will be saving his most solid play, for the finals. There will be no bunker rushing protoss, in my opinion.
You did watch last season's final, right? (If not, go do so: the short version is that BeSt's playstyle is - as it always has been - vulnerable to early pressure and outright cheese.)
On March 12 2012 01:42 VGhost wrote: I know this is borderline insane... but is anyone else a little bit tempted to push fantasy up to #1? He's 4-0 since the last PR (to Flash's 4-2). Granted, he's had slightly easier opponents... but he hasn't lost to nobodies (though both admittedly with very good PvT). Also factoring in is fantasy's win - you could almost say comeback win - over Jaehoon, who's also a solid PvT player.
Mostly I'm wondering whether people are starting to figure out Flash's PvT (for now). He could have lost to Stork despite an abusive early game build if Stork hadn't gone all in on carriers AND lost his goons; he beat BeSt with a bunker rush; he's now running an 0-2 streak against Protoss. I'm not suggesting panic, and I don't really think there's sufficient evidence to actually knock him out of the #1 spot yet. But I do think it's something to start keeping an eye on, especially with fantasy just inches behind him in terms of performance and record.
And Fantasy? No, I mean Fanatasy is a really good player, but he has had easier opponents than Flash, and FlaSh just has better play, better sense and better mechanics. FlaSh beats his opponents good, and when I say good I mean there is no doubt FlaSh would win a bo3 or o5 against any given player. FlaSh becoming predictable? Maybe a little, his fast third vT build is starting to get hard-countered but he will find a way to do it safely or he will just play any other style of PvT and win because of better macro and gamesense. And his vT and vZ have never looked so impossibly perfect than they do now.
fantasy's TvT is a little worse; but his TvP is arguably better (also by ELO) if only because he's not lost. TvZ? He's beaten ZerO three times and Calm once in resounding fashion. (I'm mostly arguing for the sake of the argument here - like I said before there's not a solid argument at the moment for taking #1 from Flash.)
On March 12 2012 01:42 VGhost wrote: I know this is borderline insane... but is anyone else a little bit tempted to push fantasy up to #1? He's 4-0 since the last PR (to Flash's 4-2). Granted, he's had slightly easier opponents... but he hasn't lost to nobodies (though both admittedly with very good PvT). Also factoring in is fantasy's win - you could almost say comeback win - over Jaehoon, who's also a solid PvT player.
Mostly I'm wondering whether people are starting to figure out Flash's PvT (for now). He could have lost to Stork despite an abusive early game build if Stork hadn't gone all in on carriers AND lost his goons; he beat BeSt with a bunker rush; he's now running an 0-2 streak against Protoss. I'm not suggesting panic, and I don't really think there's sufficient evidence to actually knock him out of the #1 spot yet. But I do think it's something to start keeping an eye on, especially with fantasy just inches behind him in terms of performance and record.
I really do think Flash will be saving his most solid play, for the finals. There will be no bunker rushing protoss, in my opinion.
Regardless, Flash's mechanics are still superb- the best in my opinion. His tank control is excellent. His losses are due to being overly greedy against an aggressive and prepared opponent, and I doubt he will make that mistake in the finals.
Yeah, but the thing is, this month's power rank isn't about what someone could or would do in the future. It's about what has happened between the last PR and now.
On March 12 2012 01:42 VGhost wrote: I know this is borderline insane... but is anyone else a little bit tempted to push fantasy up to #1? He's 4-0 since the last PR (to Flash's 4-2). Granted, he's had slightly easier opponents... but he hasn't lost to nobodies (though both admittedly with very good PvT). Also factoring in is fantasy's win - you could almost say comeback win - over Jaehoon, who's also a solid PvT player.
Mostly I'm wondering whether people are starting to figure out Flash's PvT (for now). He could have lost to Stork despite an abusive early game build if Stork hadn't gone all in on carriers AND lost his goons; he beat BeSt with a bunker rush; he's now running an 0-2 streak against Protoss. I'm not suggesting panic, and I don't really think there's sufficient evidence to actually knock him out of the #1 spot yet. But I do think it's something to start keeping an eye on, especially with fantasy just inches behind him in terms of performance and record.
I really do think Flash will be saving his most solid play, for the finals. There will be no bunker rushing protoss, in my opinion.
Regardless, Flash's mechanics are still superb- the best in my opinion. His tank control is excellent. His losses are due to being overly greedy against an aggressive and prepared opponent, and I doubt he will make that mistake in the finals.
Yeah, but the thing is, this month's power rank isn't about what someone could or would do in the future. It's about what has happened between the last PR and now.
Flash is the most feared player at this moment. No doubt about it. That´s power.
Actually, I don't agree that Flash has shown better play and game sense than Fantasy in their most recent games (granted, I'm a massive T1 fan though so I'm probably biased). Majority of Flash's wins this season came from getting a big lead in early game if not outright winning due to BO choices. While choosing the better BOs is obviously a strength in itself, I kind of feel like Flash is prone to getting himself killed due to too much reliance on his BO being 'perfect' and cutting too many corners to get the advantages he feels he needs to be in position to win.
In contrast, Fantasy's games, while more messy and chaotic, were really more about superior tactical decisions and control, as well as amazing timings with his vulture harass, drops etc, rather than BO wins; which in my opinion, is a better indicator of overall skill level. You can get the worse end of a BO or misread what your opponent is doing even against enemies magnitudes weaker than you, and then lose embarrassingly like Flash did recently.
Again, I'm not saying that Flash is somehow bad, not saying that he is downright worse than Fantasy either; just don't feel that his play has been more impressive than Fantasy's at all.
On March 12 2012 07:38 Sethronu wrote: Actually, I don't agree that Flash has shown better play and game sense than Fantasy in their most recent games (granted, I'm a massive T1 fan though so I'm probably biased). Majority of Flash's wins this season came from getting a big lead in early game if not outright winning due to BO choices. While choosing the better BOs is obviously a strength in itself, I kind of feel like Flash is prone to getting himself killed due to too much reliance on his BO being 'perfect' and cutting too many corners to get the advantages he feels he needs to be in position to win.
In contrast, Fantasy's games, while more messy and chaotic, were really more about superior tactical decisions and control, as well as amazing timings with his vulture harass, drops etc, rather than BO wins; which in my opinion, is a better indicator of overall skill level. You can get the worse end of a BO or misread what your opponent is doing even against enemies magnitudes weaker than you, and then lose embarrassingly like Flash did recently.
Again, I'm not saying that Flash is somehow bad, not saying that he is downright worse than Fantasy either; just don't feel that his play has been more impressive than Fantasy's at all.
I'd like to adress the two bolded parts.
1) It's true that a lot of Flash's wins can be attributed to what people might call "cheesy" play (although I despise that word). Very many of his games don't even get to the point where he could prove his impeccable mid-late game play.
His "cheesy" play though can also be interpreted as neatly exploiting the metagame state of the respective matchups and allowing Flash to get a somewhat safe advantage early on. It's not risky in the sense that gets attributed to "cheesy" play most of the time; what he does, is calculatedly and impeccably taking advantage of the situation he's put in. I don't agree that this kind of play which assured him so many free wins should go to his disadvantage when considering his spot on the ranking.
2) Same thing goes for the cutting corners aspect. I don't know if Flash feels he "needs [to cut corners] to be in a position to win". He's reading his opponent based on scouting (notably scanning) and reacts appropriately. From the limited information he gets, he's making the perfect choices. The loss to Dear can be attributed to lacking information, not on a lackluster interpretation of what he saw. Same thing goes for his loss to M18M. The proxied gates + robo caused a lack of intel which could be exploited by his opponent. What I'm saying is: Flash is taking every little advantage he gets to get ahead which is exactly what makes him such a dominant player. He does the best with the intel he gets which makes it safe to say that (almost) anyone he's playing is gonna lose if he doesn't somehow "trick" Flash or if Flash fails at scouting. And that's basically saying Flash is the best player at the moment if you don't catch him off guard. And even in those situations, his crisis management is totally up there.
Not taking anything away from Fantasy though. He totally deserves #2, until we see a clear flaw in Flash's play, in his game sense or his execution. The gap between #1 and #2 doesn't seem that insurmountable to me.
On March 12 2012 07:38 Sethronu wrote: Actually, I don't agree that Flash has shown better play and game sense than Fantasy in their most recent games (granted, I'm a massive T1 fan though so I'm probably biased). Majority of Flash's wins this season came from getting a big lead in early game if not outright winning due to BO choices. While choosing the better BOs is obviously a strength in itself, I kind of feel like Flash is prone to getting himself killed due to too much reliance on his BO being 'perfect' and cutting too many corners to get the advantages he feels he needs to be in position to win.
In contrast, Fantasy's games, while more messy and chaotic, were really more about superior tactical decisions and control, as well as amazing timings with his vulture harass, drops etc, rather than BO wins; which in my opinion, is a better indicator of overall skill level. You can get the worse end of a BO or misread what your opponent is doing even against enemies magnitudes weaker than you, and then lose embarrassingly like Flash did recently.
Again, I'm not saying that Flash is somehow bad, not saying that he is downright worse than Fantasy either; just don't feel that his play has been more impressive than Fantasy's at all.
I'd like to adress the two bolded parts.
1) It's true that a lot of Flash's wins can be attributed to what people might call "cheesy" play (although I despise that word). Very many of his games don't even get to the point where he could prove his impeccable mid-late game play.
His "cheesy" play though can also be interpreted as neatly exploiting the metagame state of the respective matchups and allowing Flash to get a somewhat safe advantage early on. It's not risky in the sense that gets attributed to "cheesy" play most of the time; what he does, is calculatedly and impeccably taking advantage of the situation he's put in. I don't agree that this kind of play which assured him so many free wins should go to his disadvantage when considering his spot on the ranking.
2) Same thing goes for the cutting corners aspect. I don't know if Flash feels he "needs [to cut corners] to be in a position to win". He's reading his opponent based on scouting (notably scanning) and reacts appropriately. From the limited information he gets, he's making the perfect choices. The loss to Dear can be attributed to lacking information, not on a lackluster interpretation of what he saw. Same thing goes for his loss to M18M. The proxied gates + robo caused a lack of intel which could be exploited by his opponent. What I'm saying is: Flash is taking every little advantage he gets to get ahead which is exactly what makes him such a dominant player. He does the best with the intel he gets which makes it safe to say that (almost) anyone he's playing is gonna lose if he doesn't somehow "trick" Flash or if Flash fails at scouting. And that's basically saying Flash is the best player at the moment if you don't catch him off guard. And even in those situations, his crisis management is totally up there.
Not taking anything away from Fantasy though. He totally deserves #2, until we see a clear flaw in Flash's play, in his game sense or his execution. The gap between #1 and #2 doesn't seem that insurmountable to me.
Its paper thin imo. Flash reliant on early aggression (note that I refrained from using cheese) to gain a massive lead into the game. Then he ride the momentum by not making stupid decision into victory while Fantasy plays with a much more conventional fashion. But however, just because this is 'God' we are talking about here, I am sure that most of his fanboys would be thinking "wtf is Xiphos saying? Flash number 1!"
On March 12 2012 07:38 Sethronu wrote: Actually, I don't agree that Flash has shown better play and game sense than Fantasy in their most recent games (granted, I'm a massive T1 fan though so I'm probably biased). Majority of Flash's wins this season came from getting a big lead in early game if not outright winning due to BO choices. While choosing the better BOs is obviously a strength in itself, I kind of feel like Flash is prone to getting himself killed due to too much reliance on his BO being 'perfect' and cutting too many corners to get the advantages he feels he needs to be in position to win.
In contrast, Fantasy's games, while more messy and chaotic, were really more about superior tactical decisions and control, as well as amazing timings with his vulture harass, drops etc, rather than BO wins; which in my opinion, is a better indicator of overall skill level. You can get the worse end of a BO or misread what your opponent is doing even against enemies magnitudes weaker than you, and then lose embarrassingly like Flash did recently.
Again, I'm not saying that Flash is somehow bad, not saying that he is downright worse than Fantasy either; just don't feel that his play has been more impressive than Fantasy's at all.
I'd like to adress the two bolded parts.
1) It's true that a lot of Flash's wins can be attributed to what people might call "cheesy" play (although I despise that word). Very many of his games don't even get to the point where he could prove his impeccable mid-late game play.
His "cheesy" play though can also be interpreted as neatly exploiting the metagame state of the respective matchups and allowing Flash to get a somewhat safe advantage early on. It's not risky in the sense that gets attributed to "cheesy" play most of the time; what he does, is calculatedly and impeccably taking advantage of the situation he's put in. I don't agree that this kind of play which assured him so many free wins should go to his disadvantage when considering his spot on the ranking.
2) Same thing goes for the cutting corners aspect. I don't know if Flash feels he "needs [to cut corners] to be in a position to win". He's reading his opponent based on scouting (notably scanning) and reacts appropriately. From the limited information he gets, he's making the perfect choices. The loss to Dear can be attributed to lacking information, not on a lackluster interpretation of what he saw. Same thing goes for his loss to M18M. The proxied gates + robo caused a lack of intel which could be exploited by his opponent. What I'm saying is: Flash is taking every little advantage he gets to get ahead which is exactly what makes him such a dominant player. He does the best with the intel he gets which makes it safe to say that (almost) anyone he's playing is gonna lose if he doesn't somehow "trick" Flash or if Flash fails at scouting. And that's basically saying Flash is the best player at the moment if you don't catch him off guard. And even in those situations, his crisis management is totally up there.
Not taking anything away from Fantasy though. He totally deserves #2, until we see a clear flaw in Flash's play, in his game sense or his execution. The gap between #1 and #2 doesn't seem that insurmountable to me.
Its paper thin imo. Flash reliant on early aggression (note that I refrained from using cheese) to gain a massive lead into the game. Then he ride the momentum by not making stupid decision into victory while Fantasy plays with a much more conventional fashion. But however, just because this is 'God' we are talking about here, I am sure that most of his fanboys would be thinking "wtf is Xiphos saying? Flash number 1!"
You're damned if you fast expand, you're damned if you don't.
You have to play boring/standard every single time like fantasy to win or it doesn't count.
On March 12 2012 07:38 Sethronu wrote: Actually, I don't agree that Flash has shown better play and game sense than Fantasy in their most recent games (granted, I'm a massive T1 fan though so I'm probably biased). Majority of Flash's wins this season came from getting a big lead in early game if not outright winning due to BO choices. While choosing the better BOs is obviously a strength in itself, I kind of feel like Flash is prone to getting himself killed due to too much reliance on his BO being 'perfect' and cutting too many corners to get the advantages he feels he needs to be in position to win.
In contrast, Fantasy's games, while more messy and chaotic, were really more about superior tactical decisions and control, as well as amazing timings with his vulture harass, drops etc, rather than BO wins; which in my opinion, is a better indicator of overall skill level. You can get the worse end of a BO or misread what your opponent is doing even against enemies magnitudes weaker than you, and then lose embarrassingly like Flash did recently.
Again, I'm not saying that Flash is somehow bad, not saying that he is downright worse than Fantasy either; just don't feel that his play has been more impressive than Fantasy's at all.
I'd like to adress the two bolded parts.
1) It's true that a lot of Flash's wins can be attributed to what people might call "cheesy" play (although I despise that word). Very many of his games don't even get to the point where he could prove his impeccable mid-late game play.
His "cheesy" play though can also be interpreted as neatly exploiting the metagame state of the respective matchups and allowing Flash to get a somewhat safe advantage early on. It's not risky in the sense that gets attributed to "cheesy" play most of the time; what he does, is calculatedly and impeccably taking advantage of the situation he's put in. I don't agree that this kind of play which assured him so many free wins should go to his disadvantage when considering his spot on the ranking.
2) Same thing goes for the cutting corners aspect. I don't know if Flash feels he "needs [to cut corners] to be in a position to win". He's reading his opponent based on scouting (notably scanning) and reacts appropriately. From the limited information he gets, he's making the perfect choices. The loss to Dear can be attributed to lacking information, not on a lackluster interpretation of what he saw. Same thing goes for his loss to M18M. The proxied gates + robo caused a lack of intel which could be exploited by his opponent. What I'm saying is: Flash is taking every little advantage he gets to get ahead which is exactly what makes him such a dominant player. He does the best with the intel he gets which makes it safe to say that (almost) anyone he's playing is gonna lose if he doesn't somehow "trick" Flash or if Flash fails at scouting. And that's basically saying Flash is the best player at the moment if you don't catch him off guard. And even in those situations, his crisis management is totally up there.
Not taking anything away from Fantasy though. He totally deserves #2, until we see a clear flaw in Flash's play, in his game sense or his execution. The gap between #1 and #2 doesn't seem that insurmountable to me.
Its paper thin imo. Flash reliant on early aggression (note that I refrained from using cheese) to gain a massive lead into the game. Then he ride the momentum by not making stupid decision into victory while Fantasy plays with a much more conventional fashion. But however, just because this is 'God' we are talking about here, I am sure that most of his fanboys would be thinking "wtf is Xiphos saying? Flash number 1!"
You're damned if you fast expand, you're damned if you don't.
You have to play boring/standard every single time like fantasy to win or it doesn't count.
Bingo, glad to see a KT fan concurring with my assessment.
On March 12 2012 07:38 Sethronu wrote: Actually, I don't agree that Flash has shown better play and game sense than Fantasy in their most recent games (granted, I'm a massive T1 fan though so I'm probably biased). Majority of Flash's wins this season came from getting a big lead in early game if not outright winning due to BO choices. While choosing the better BOs is obviously a strength in itself, I kind of feel like Flash is prone to getting himself killed due to too much reliance on his BO being 'perfect' and cutting too many corners to get the advantages he feels he needs to be in position to win.
In contrast, Fantasy's games, while more messy and chaotic, were really more about superior tactical decisions and control, as well as amazing timings with his vulture harass, drops etc, rather than BO wins; which in my opinion, is a better indicator of overall skill level. You can get the worse end of a BO or misread what your opponent is doing even against enemies magnitudes weaker than you, and then lose embarrassingly like Flash did recently.
Again, I'm not saying that Flash is somehow bad, not saying that he is downright worse than Fantasy either; just don't feel that his play has been more impressive than Fantasy's at all.
I'd like to adress the two bolded parts.
1) It's true that a lot of Flash's wins can be attributed to what people might call "cheesy" play (although I despise that word). Very many of his games don't even get to the point where he could prove his impeccable mid-late game play.
His "cheesy" play though can also be interpreted as neatly exploiting the metagame state of the respective matchups and allowing Flash to get a somewhat safe advantage early on. It's not risky in the sense that gets attributed to "cheesy" play most of the time; what he does, is calculatedly and impeccably taking advantage of the situation he's put in. I don't agree that this kind of play which assured him so many free wins should go to his disadvantage when considering his spot on the ranking.
2) Same thing goes for the cutting corners aspect. I don't know if Flash feels he "needs [to cut corners] to be in a position to win". He's reading his opponent based on scouting (notably scanning) and reacts appropriately. From the limited information he gets, he's making the perfect choices. The loss to Dear can be attributed to lacking information, not on a lackluster interpretation of what he saw. Same thing goes for his loss to M18M. The proxied gates + robo caused a lack of intel which could be exploited by his opponent. What I'm saying is: Flash is taking every little advantage he gets to get ahead which is exactly what makes him such a dominant player. He does the best with the intel he gets which makes it safe to say that (almost) anyone he's playing is gonna lose if he doesn't somehow "trick" Flash or if Flash fails at scouting. And that's basically saying Flash is the best player at the moment if you don't catch him off guard. And even in those situations, his crisis management is totally up there.
Not taking anything away from Fantasy though. He totally deserves #2, until we see a clear flaw in Flash's play, in his game sense or his execution. The gap between #1 and #2 doesn't seem that insurmountable to me.
Its paper thin imo. Flash reliant on early aggression (note that I refrained from using cheese) to gain a massive lead into the game. Then he ride the momentum by not making stupid decision into victory while Fantasy plays with a much more conventional fashion. But however, just because this is 'God' we are talking about here, I am sure that most of his fanboys would be thinking "wtf is Xiphos saying? Flash number 1!"
You're damned if you fast expand, you're damned if you don't.
You have to play boring/standard every single time like fantasy to win or it doesn't count.
Bingo, glad to see a KT fan concurring with my assessment.
haha..I can agree with logic but I think you have a very simplistic view of what constitutes a better player.
I think flash has more than proven that he can play standard and go toe to toe with anyone.
Furthermore, this is Flash you're talking about, almost every player in proleague has a snipe strategy prepared against him.
This is including Fantasy (from a recent interview).
I don't think Flash can get away with playing standard and become predictable and continue to dominate. He needs to be unpredictable and display a wide array of strategies which I think he has being doing perfectly (almost).
Flash has impeccable game sense also, even though you see him behind in a lot of games he's able to attack/do the perfect move that brings him back into the game (i.e., leta vs flash where flash went in with a rag tag team of vults/marines and decreased letas vulture count in the early game because he knew he was going for a runby of sorts). I mean c'mon, I can't see fantasy pulling impressive things like that off.
On March 12 2012 07:38 Sethronu wrote: Actually, I don't agree that Flash has shown better play and game sense than Fantasy in their most recent games (granted, I'm a massive T1 fan though so I'm probably biased). Majority of Flash's wins this season came from getting a big lead in early game if not outright winning due to BO choices. While choosing the better BOs is obviously a strength in itself, I kind of feel like Flash is prone to getting himself killed due to too much reliance on his BO being 'perfect' and cutting too many corners to get the advantages he feels he needs to be in position to win.
In contrast, Fantasy's games, while more messy and chaotic, were really more about superior tactical decisions and control, as well as amazing timings with his vulture harass, drops etc, rather than BO wins; which in my opinion, is a better indicator of overall skill level. You can get the worse end of a BO or misread what your opponent is doing even against enemies magnitudes weaker than you, and then lose embarrassingly like Flash did recently.
Again, I'm not saying that Flash is somehow bad, not saying that he is downright worse than Fantasy either; just don't feel that his play has been more impressive than Fantasy's at all.
I'd like to adress the two bolded parts.
1) It's true that a lot of Flash's wins can be attributed to what people might call "cheesy" play (although I despise that word). Very many of his games don't even get to the point where he could prove his impeccable mid-late game play.
His "cheesy" play though can also be interpreted as neatly exploiting the metagame state of the respective matchups and allowing Flash to get a somewhat safe advantage early on. It's not risky in the sense that gets attributed to "cheesy" play most of the time; what he does, is calculatedly and impeccably taking advantage of the situation he's put in. I don't agree that this kind of play which assured him so many free wins should go to his disadvantage when considering his spot on the ranking.
2) Same thing goes for the cutting corners aspect. I don't know if Flash feels he "needs [to cut corners] to be in a position to win". He's reading his opponent based on scouting (notably scanning) and reacts appropriately. From the limited information he gets, he's making the perfect choices. The loss to Dear can be attributed to lacking information, not on a lackluster interpretation of what he saw. Same thing goes for his loss to M18M. The proxied gates + robo caused a lack of intel which could be exploited by his opponent. What I'm saying is: Flash is taking every little advantage he gets to get ahead which is exactly what makes him such a dominant player. He does the best with the intel he gets which makes it safe to say that (almost) anyone he's playing is gonna lose if he doesn't somehow "trick" Flash or if Flash fails at scouting. And that's basically saying Flash is the best player at the moment if you don't catch him off guard. And even in those situations, his crisis management is totally up there.
Not taking anything away from Fantasy though. He totally deserves #2, until we see a clear flaw in Flash's play, in his game sense or his execution. The gap between #1 and #2 doesn't seem that insurmountable to me.
Its paper thin imo. Flash reliant on early aggression (note that I refrained from using cheese) to gain a massive lead into the game. Then he ride the momentum by not making stupid decision into victory while Fantasy plays with a much more conventional fashion. But however, just because this is 'God' we are talking about here, I am sure that most of his fanboys would be thinking "wtf is Xiphos saying? Flash number 1!"
You're damned if you fast expand, you're damned if you don't.
You have to play boring/standard every single time like fantasy to win or it doesn't count.
Bingo, glad to see a KT fan concurring with my assessment.
haha..I can agree with logic but I think you have a very simplistic view of what constitutes a better player.
I think flash has more than proven that he can play standard and go toe to toe with anyone.
Furthermore, this is Flash you're talking about, almost every player in proleague has a snipe strategy prepared against him.
This is including Fantasy (from a recent interview).
I don't think Flash can get away with playing standard and become predictable and continue to dominate. He needs to be unpredictable and display a wide array of strategies which I think he has being doing perfectly (almost).
Flash has impeccable game sense also, even though you see him behind in a lot of games he's able to attack/do the perfect move that brings him back into the game (i.e., leta vs flash where flash went in with a rag tag team of vults/marines and decreased letas vulture count in the early game because he knew he was going for a runby of sorts). I mean c'mon, I can't see fantasy pulling impressive things like that off.
Yeah, I can't imagine Fantasy going 3 base while being on one Fact and cancelling Turrets unnecessarily either.
Although I'd like to see Fantasy FINALLY take #1 on the PR, it would feel wrong for him to get it like this. The reality is that the gap between Flash and everyone else had been SO HIGH coming into R3 that pretty much the only way for Fantasy to topple Flash from #1 would be a head-to-head win.
PR isn't "clean slate at the start of the month." That's not POWER. That's just netizens being silly. Results are analyzed in the context of history and I see no reason to start doubting Flash right now.
Of course, the gap between Flash and Fantasy is not very large right now, but there's still the feeling with Fantasy that he may look unexpectedly weak whereas with Flash the feeling when you watch him lose is that his opponent deduced some kind of fluky timing attack that has no bearing on Flash's actual ability and that come next month the "problems" will already be erased. Basically, Fantasy at his best feels like an even rival for Flash, but Fantasy has a serious trollface.
The rest of the ranking.. .I'm thinking something like: 3. Stork, 4/5. Leta/Soulkey, 6. Jaedong, 7. Crazy-Hydra, 8. Best 9/10/CBNC is a bit murky. I think that's where the real arguing should take place.
I think some people are underestimating what is happening here. Flash was the dominant player for almost 2 years - and in fact can (probably should) still be considered the best player in BroodWar, whatever challenges fantasy or (potentially) Stork, Bisu, Jaedong, or Soulkey might be putting up - not just because he managed to achieve essentially perfect micro & (especially) macro, but because of an attitude of essential ruthlessness. I think the succession here is clearly Nada -> sAviOr -> Flash. Boxer was a magician; oov (though this is a vast oversimplification) a technician; but these three played the complete game not in its developing stages, but in its (progressively richer) maturity.
I don't think anyone currently on the scene matches Flash's attitude towards the game, and for that reason it's almost certain that Flash will remain at or near the top for as long as he wants (barring any huge unforseen developments in strategy which somehow reduce him to being a "limited" player, as happened to Boxer). But what we are seeing - made most emphatically clear by Dear's comments - is that Flash's work ethic is forcing those who want to compete with him to look at details of the game. Flash has pushed the precision required by the game beyond even ideas like "+2 attack timing"; in order to beat him (for example) Dear was studying scanning patterns. Think about that for a moment. Probably this season's most successful PvT player was not content with his own prowess, but felt compelled to go to the extreme of looking at where in an opponent's base Flash scans. (Or maybe it's even that he's done so well in PvT because he put in the work to study everything Flash does.) This is a significant upping of the ante. We've seen flashes (er, ha) of this kind of detail work for a while, mostly from SKT - oov/fantasy's build vs Jaedong in the '09 Final superace, fantasy's whole series vs. Jaedong in that OSL, Bisu's build vs. Flash in the WL Final last season, the Pathfinder build Jangbi somehow beat - and also in ZvZ. Then looking back on Flash's interviews, it's clear he has put this kind of thought into the game for several years now. But I think we are finally hitting a critical mass: for now, maybe, people are only doing this to beat Flash himself... but it can't be that long (assuming the game survives) until a bunch of somebody elses starts putting that kind of work in on a regular basis.
Now the real question this PR is not if Flash #1/Fantasy #2, it's whether Bisu deserves to stay on the PR and whether Jaedong should be allowed back on.
On March 12 2012 14:11 aupstar wrote: Now the real question this PR is not if Flash #1/Fantasy #2, it's whether Bisu deserves to stay on the PR and whether Jaedong should be allowed back on.
Bisu's record has been bad. His game vs FirebatHero wasn't clean at all (looked shaky despite the massive lead he took after the opening). Unlike many, i actually liked his games vs Jangbi. Long tense games drain player's mental stamina massively and i didn't think as poorly of some of Bisu's (silly) mistakes as the others did. Long story short though, for the most part, he (Bisu) shouldn't make the PR. Unless competition has been especially weak and i haven't been paying attention.
I would put Jaedong on again as well. He's looked strong (though not throughly tested in all MUs, but being Jaedong he can be given the benefit of the doubt).
On March 12 2012 07:38 Sethronu wrote: Actually, I don't agree that Flash has shown better play and game sense than Fantasy in their most recent games (granted, I'm a massive T1 fan though so I'm probably biased). Majority of Flash's wins this season came from getting a big lead in early game if not outright winning due to BO choices. While choosing the better BOs is obviously a strength in itself, I kind of feel like Flash is prone to getting himself killed due to too much reliance on his BO being 'perfect' and cutting too many corners to get the advantages he feels he needs to be in position to win.
In contrast, Fantasy's games, while more messy and chaotic, were really more about superior tactical decisions and control, as well as amazing timings with his vulture harass, drops etc, rather than BO wins; which in my opinion, is a better indicator of overall skill level. You can get the worse end of a BO or misread what your opponent is doing even against enemies magnitudes weaker than you, and then lose embarrassingly like Flash did recently.
Again, I'm not saying that Flash is somehow bad, not saying that he is downright worse than Fantasy either; just don't feel that his play has been more impressive than Fantasy's at all.
I'd like to adress the two bolded parts.
1) It's true that a lot of Flash's wins can be attributed to what people might call "cheesy" play (although I despise that word). Very many of his games don't even get to the point where he could prove his impeccable mid-late game play.
His "cheesy" play though can also be interpreted as neatly exploiting the metagame state of the respective matchups and allowing Flash to get a somewhat safe advantage early on. It's not risky in the sense that gets attributed to "cheesy" play most of the time; what he does, is calculatedly and impeccably taking advantage of the situation he's put in. I don't agree that this kind of play which assured him so many free wins should go to his disadvantage when considering his spot on the ranking.
2) Same thing goes for the cutting corners aspect. I don't know if Flash feels he "needs [to cut corners] to be in a position to win". He's reading his opponent based on scouting (notably scanning) and reacts appropriately. From the limited information he gets, he's making the perfect choices. The loss to Dear can be attributed to lacking information, not on a lackluster interpretation of what he saw. Same thing goes for his loss to M18M. The proxied gates + robo caused a lack of intel which could be exploited by his opponent. What I'm saying is: Flash is taking every little advantage he gets to get ahead which is exactly what makes him such a dominant player. He does the best with the intel he gets which makes it safe to say that (almost) anyone he's playing is gonna lose if he doesn't somehow "trick" Flash or if Flash fails at scouting. And that's basically saying Flash is the best player at the moment if you don't catch him off guard. And even in those situations, his crisis management is totally up there.
Not taking anything away from Fantasy though. He totally deserves #2, until we see a clear flaw in Flash's play, in his game sense or his execution. The gap between #1 and #2 doesn't seem that insurmountable to me.
Agreed! Flash is the best because he makes the best deductions.
This is why I hate these kind of threads when there aren't enough games. People will judge based on expectations and not actual performance or results, well known psych affect.
On March 12 2012 01:42 VGhost wrote: I know this is borderline insane... but is anyone else a little bit tempted to push fantasy up to #1? He's 4-0 since the last PR (to Flash's 4-2). Granted, he's had slightly easier opponents... but he hasn't lost to nobodies (though both admittedly with very good PvT). Also factoring in is fantasy's win - you could almost say comeback win - over Jaehoon, who's also a solid PvT player.
Mostly I'm wondering whether people are starting to figure out Flash's PvT (for now). He could have lost to Stork despite an abusive early game build if Stork hadn't gone all in on carriers AND lost his goons; he beat BeSt with a bunker rush; he's now running an 0-2 streak against Protoss. I'm not suggesting panic, and I don't really think there's sufficient evidence to actually knock him out of the #1 spot yet. But I do think it's something to start keeping an eye on, especially with fantasy just inches behind him in terms of performance and record.
I really do think Flash will be saving his most solid play, for the finals. There will be no bunker rushing protoss, in my opinion.
Regardless, Flash's mechanics are still superb- the best in my opinion. His tank control is excellent. His losses are due to being overly greedy against an aggressive and prepared opponent, and I doubt he will make that mistake in the finals.
I didn't feel like the center gates from M18M was a prepared build, rather a reaction to Flash's proxy into fast third. I feel like it was just a relatively hard screwup by Flash rather than some kind of brilliance by M18M.
On March 12 2012 01:42 VGhost wrote: I know this is borderline insane... but is anyone else a little bit tempted to push fantasy up to #1? He's 4-0 since the last PR (to Flash's 4-2). Granted, he's had slightly easier opponents... but he hasn't lost to nobodies (though both admittedly with very good PvT). Also factoring in is fantasy's win - you could almost say comeback win - over Jaehoon, who's also a solid PvT player.
Mostly I'm wondering whether people are starting to figure out Flash's PvT (for now). He could have lost to Stork despite an abusive early game build if Stork hadn't gone all in on carriers AND lost his goons; he beat BeSt with a bunker rush; he's now running an 0-2 streak against Protoss. I'm not suggesting panic, and I don't really think there's sufficient evidence to actually knock him out of the #1 spot yet. But I do think it's something to start keeping an eye on, especially with fantasy just inches behind him in terms of performance and record.
I really do think Flash will be saving his most solid play, for the finals. There will be no bunker rushing protoss, in my opinion.
Regardless, Flash's mechanics are still superb- the best in my opinion. His tank control is excellent. His losses are due to being overly greedy against an aggressive and prepared opponent, and I doubt he will make that mistake in the finals.
I didn't feel like the center gates from M18M was a prepared build, rather a reaction to Flash's proxy into fast third. I feel like it was just a relatively hard screwup by Flash rather than some kind of brilliance by M18M.
Read the interview, he said it was a prepared strategy
On March 12 2012 01:42 VGhost wrote: I know this is borderline insane... but is anyone else a little bit tempted to push fantasy up to #1? He's 4-0 since the last PR (to Flash's 4-2). Granted, he's had slightly easier opponents... but he hasn't lost to nobodies (though both admittedly with very good PvT). Also factoring in is fantasy's win - you could almost say comeback win - over Jaehoon, who's also a solid PvT player.
Mostly I'm wondering whether people are starting to figure out Flash's PvT (for now). He could have lost to Stork despite an abusive early game build if Stork hadn't gone all in on carriers AND lost his goons; he beat BeSt with a bunker rush; he's now running an 0-2 streak against Protoss. I'm not suggesting panic, and I don't really think there's sufficient evidence to actually knock him out of the #1 spot yet. But I do think it's something to start keeping an eye on, especially with fantasy just inches behind him in terms of performance and record.
I really do think Flash will be saving his most solid play, for the finals. There will be no bunker rushing protoss, in my opinion.
Regardless, Flash's mechanics are still superb- the best in my opinion. His tank control is excellent. His losses are due to being overly greedy against an aggressive and prepared opponent, and I doubt he will make that mistake in the finals.
I didn't feel like the center gates from M18M was a prepared build, rather a reaction to Flash's proxy into fast third. I feel like it was just a relatively hard screwup by Flash rather than some kind of brilliance by M18M.
Read the interview, he said it was a prepared strategy
It's only "prepared" in the sense that he felt it's a good counter to Flash's macro cheese. Given how Flash loves to double-expand off of almost nothing on maps with easy 3rds, it's not surprising that players will think about how to react to such a build. If Flash had played standard, M18M would've surely followed suit.
On March 12 2012 01:42 VGhost wrote: I know this is borderline insane... but is anyone else a little bit tempted to push fantasy up to #1? He's 4-0 since the last PR (to Flash's 4-2). Granted, he's had slightly easier opponents... but he hasn't lost to nobodies (though both admittedly with very good PvT). Also factoring in is fantasy's win - you could almost say comeback win - over Jaehoon, who's also a solid PvT player.
Mostly I'm wondering whether people are starting to figure out Flash's PvT (for now). He could have lost to Stork despite an abusive early game build if Stork hadn't gone all in on carriers AND lost his goons; he beat BeSt with a bunker rush; he's now running an 0-2 streak against Protoss. I'm not suggesting panic, and I don't really think there's sufficient evidence to actually knock him out of the #1 spot yet. But I do think it's something to start keeping an eye on, especially with fantasy just inches behind him in terms of performance and record.
I really do think Flash will be saving his most solid play, for the finals. There will be no bunker rushing protoss, in my opinion.
Regardless, Flash's mechanics are still superb- the best in my opinion. His tank control is excellent. His losses are due to being overly greedy against an aggressive and prepared opponent, and I doubt he will make that mistake in the finals.
I didn't feel like the center gates from M18M was a prepared build, rather a reaction to Flash's proxy into fast third. I feel like it was just a relatively hard screwup by Flash rather than some kind of brilliance by M18M.
Read the interview, he said it was a prepared strategy
It's only "prepared" in the sense that he felt it's a good counter to Flash's macro cheese. Given how Flash loves to double-expand off of almost nothing on maps with easy 3rds, it's not surprising that players will think about how to react to such a build. If Flash had played standard, M18M would've surely followed suit.
Tell me then. What is your standard build?Because the "standard" build differs for each person and Flash's standard build was getting quick 3rd. Standard build doesnt always have to involve 3-4 fact into 3 base 2-1 timing.
i still feel that the fact that ANYBODY against flash is the massive underdog - a imperceptible feeling of power and unbeatable-ness that past PR writers have used as reasoning in placing #1's - is more than enough to place him at first this month. if the pattern of flash taking a consistently large number of losses while fantasy remains undefeated continues, there's definitely room for argument - but taking flash's 14 win streak and current play and his losses into consideration this seems rather unlikely
On March 12 2012 01:42 VGhost wrote: I know this is borderline insane... but is anyone else a little bit tempted to push fantasy up to #1? He's 4-0 since the last PR (to Flash's 4-2). Granted, he's had slightly easier opponents... but he hasn't lost to nobodies (though both admittedly with very good PvT). Also factoring in is fantasy's win - you could almost say comeback win - over Jaehoon, who's also a solid PvT player.
Mostly I'm wondering whether people are starting to figure out Flash's PvT (for now). He could have lost to Stork despite an abusive early game build if Stork hadn't gone all in on carriers AND lost his goons; he beat BeSt with a bunker rush; he's now running an 0-2 streak against Protoss. I'm not suggesting panic, and I don't really think there's sufficient evidence to actually knock him out of the #1 spot yet. But I do think it's something to start keeping an eye on, especially with fantasy just inches behind him in terms of performance and record.
I really do think Flash will be saving his most solid play, for the finals. There will be no bunker rushing protoss, in my opinion.
Regardless, Flash's mechanics are still superb- the best in my opinion. His tank control is excellent. His losses are due to being overly greedy against an aggressive and prepared opponent, and I doubt he will make that mistake in the finals.
I didn't feel like the center gates from M18M was a prepared build, rather a reaction to Flash's proxy into fast third. I feel like it was just a relatively hard screwup by Flash rather than some kind of brilliance by M18M.
Read the interview, he said it was a prepared strategy
It's only "prepared" in the sense that he felt it's a good counter to Flash's macro cheese. Given how Flash loves to double-expand off of almost nothing on maps with easy 3rds, it's not surprising that players will think about how to react to such a build. If Flash had played standard, M18M would've surely followed suit.
Tell me then. What is your standard build?Because the "standard" build differs for each person and Flash's standard build was getting quick 3rd. Standard build doesnt always have to involve 3-4 fact into 3 base 2-1 timing.
I think most people on TL generally subscribe to the definition of standard as something that will defend cheese. But will be disadvantageous towards a greedy build. Obviously when it comes to progamer builds it's a little more complicated than that. But for you to just say "standard differs from person to person" IMO makes absolutely no sense. Because from my years here I've rarely if ever seen it used in other context.
On March 12 2012 01:42 VGhost wrote: I know this is borderline insane... but is anyone else a little bit tempted to push fantasy up to #1? He's 4-0 since the last PR (to Flash's 4-2). Granted, he's had slightly easier opponents... but he hasn't lost to nobodies (though both admittedly with very good PvT). Also factoring in is fantasy's win - you could almost say comeback win - over Jaehoon, who's also a solid PvT player.
Mostly I'm wondering whether people are starting to figure out Flash's PvT (for now). He could have lost to Stork despite an abusive early game build if Stork hadn't gone all in on carriers AND lost his goons; he beat BeSt with a bunker rush; he's now running an 0-2 streak against Protoss. I'm not suggesting panic, and I don't really think there's sufficient evidence to actually knock him out of the #1 spot yet. But I do think it's something to start keeping an eye on, especially with fantasy just inches behind him in terms of performance and record.
I really do think Flash will be saving his most solid play, for the finals. There will be no bunker rushing protoss, in my opinion.
Regardless, Flash's mechanics are still superb- the best in my opinion. His tank control is excellent. His losses are due to being overly greedy against an aggressive and prepared opponent, and I doubt he will make that mistake in the finals.
I didn't feel like the center gates from M18M was a prepared build, rather a reaction to Flash's proxy into fast third. I feel like it was just a relatively hard screwup by Flash rather than some kind of brilliance by M18M.
Read the interview, he said it was a prepared strategy
It's only "prepared" in the sense that he felt it's a good counter to Flash's macro cheese. Given how Flash loves to double-expand off of almost nothing on maps with easy 3rds, it's not surprising that players will think about how to react to such a build. If Flash had played standard, M18M would've surely followed suit.
Tell me then. What is your standard build?Because the "standard" build differs for each person and Flash's standard build was getting quick 3rd. Standard build doesnt always have to involve 3-4 fact into 3 base 2-1 timing.
I think most people on TL generally subscribe to the definition of standard as something that will defend cheese. But will be disadvantageous towards a greedy build. Obviously when it comes to progamer builds it's a little more complicated than that. But for you to just say "standard differs from person to person" IMO makes absolutely no sense. Because from my years here I've rarely if ever seen it used in other context.
Maybe our thoughts on word "standard" might be different. For me, a "standard" build is a build most commonly used per player. Like in 2010, Flash's standard was 14cc vs Zerg. But other player such as Fantasy would have used 1 Rax FE as their "standard".
On March 12 2012 01:42 VGhost wrote: I know this is borderline insane... but is anyone else a little bit tempted to push fantasy up to #1? He's 4-0 since the last PR (to Flash's 4-2). Granted, he's had slightly easier opponents... but he hasn't lost to nobodies (though both admittedly with very good PvT). Also factoring in is fantasy's win - you could almost say comeback win - over Jaehoon, who's also a solid PvT player.
Mostly I'm wondering whether people are starting to figure out Flash's PvT (for now). He could have lost to Stork despite an abusive early game build if Stork hadn't gone all in on carriers AND lost his goons; he beat BeSt with a bunker rush; he's now running an 0-2 streak against Protoss. I'm not suggesting panic, and I don't really think there's sufficient evidence to actually knock him out of the #1 spot yet. But I do think it's something to start keeping an eye on, especially with fantasy just inches behind him in terms of performance and record.
I really do think Flash will be saving his most solid play, for the finals. There will be no bunker rushing protoss, in my opinion.
Regardless, Flash's mechanics are still superb- the best in my opinion. His tank control is excellent. His losses are due to being overly greedy against an aggressive and prepared opponent, and I doubt he will make that mistake in the finals.
I didn't feel like the center gates from M18M was a prepared build, rather a reaction to Flash's proxy into fast third. I feel like it was just a relatively hard screwup by Flash rather than some kind of brilliance by M18M.
Read the interview, he said it was a prepared strategy
It's only "prepared" in the sense that he felt it's a good counter to Flash's macro cheese. Given how Flash loves to double-expand off of almost nothing on maps with easy 3rds, it's not surprising that players will think about how to react to such a build. If Flash had played standard, M18M would've surely followed suit.
Tell me then. What is your standard build?Because the "standard" build differs for each person and Flash's standard build was getting quick 3rd. Standard build doesnt always have to involve 3-4 fact into 3 base 2-1 timing.
I think most people on TL generally subscribe to the definition of standard as something that will defend cheese. But will be disadvantageous towards a greedy build. Obviously when it comes to progamer builds it's a little more complicated than that. But for you to just say "standard differs from person to person" IMO makes absolutely no sense. Because from my years here I've rarely if ever seen it used in other context.
Standard does not equal cautious as you imply. I'd argue that a year or so ago 12nex was standard in PvT, but it certainly wasn't cautious.
How has this thread derailed into defining what it means for play to be standard? ...
I think you guys are marching down the wrong path. Whether or not a player is reacting to a "standard" or a "tendency a certain player has" or whatever, the questions that issues that should be discussed are: 1) repeatability of performance 2) sustainability of the edge (the difference between this and (1) is that (1) asks what would happen in a BoX right now with X arbitrarily large, while (2) essentially asks how long before this "counter" is made irrelevant)
The reason why I cannot see dropping Flash below #1 on PR is that these wins against him are neither easily repeated, nor are they especially sustainable. There is zero reason to think that any Protoss player has an advantage against Flash in a Bo3+ and now that Flash knows that these "openings" exist he can easily close them.
Lol you cant look only on decisive wins of Flash and say: he plays so much better than everyone else. And then when someone defeat him say: flash is so much better, that was only lucky, prepared all in attack. Standard Flash games are so onesided, as someone said earlier, because he is cutting every edge. That is his style, if he didnt do that his games would be much more even. But when someone study Flash gamestyle, he could also be abusive. Dear and M18M did it recently, earlier in OSL Jangbi did the same in final game. You cannot expect that player who want to win with Flash will go to the lategame when he know he is in worse position because of Flash greed and abuse. Its smart to try to win earlier or force Flash to change his plans and go to lategame with much more even chances.
When you analyse Flash recent games, these bunker rushes were another abuse. They were crafted not to win outright (but vs Best it did anyway) but to secure stable advantage. M18M defended but lost some probes, stopped mining and ended behind. In a game vs Soulkey he managed to delay gas and lair tech, skip turrets and get free scv scouting when lings were busy attacking bunker. Even with this early advantage I am sure SK would fight better and possibly win if Flash didnt abuse shortest path to SK high ground and third.
I mean Flash still deserves 1st place, but you must see that those 2 loses are straight consequences of his style and cannot be considered only random upsets. They were something as normal as Flash 200/200 army rolling toss playing "standard".
On March 13 2012 09:20 dobrzeee wrote: [...] I mean Flash still deserves 1st place, but you must see that those 2 loses are straight consequences of his style and cannot be considered only random upsets. They were something as normal as Flash 200/200 army rolling toss playing "standard".
No style is perfect. There's no build has no holes at all that can't be exploited in some or the other way. Funny thing is, nobody has found a way yet to do so with Flash's style. Which makes it as perfect (plus the execution part of course) as anybody can get.
Dear essentially benefited from his exploitation of Flash's scouting pattern that left him unprepared for the reavers. And M18M's victory was also due only to a lack of (successful) scouting. I agree with Mortality in saying those were only coincidental losses in the sense that they could happen to any player.
It's not a flaw in Flash's play. It's just the volatility of the game.
On March 13 2012 09:20 dobrzeee wrote: [...] I mean Flash still deserves 1st place, but you must see that those 2 loses are straight consequences of his style and cannot be considered only random upsets. They were something as normal as Flash 200/200 army rolling toss playing "standard".
No style is perfect. There's no build has no holes at all that can't be exploited in some or the other way. Funny thing is, nobody has found a way yet to do so with Flash's style. Which makes it as perfect (plus the execution part of course) as anybody can get.
Dear essentially benefited from his exploitation of Flash's scouting pattern that left him unprepared for the reavers. And M18M's victory was also due only to a lack of (successful) scouting. I agree with Mortality in saying those were only coincidental losses in the sense that they could happen to any player.
It's not a flaw in Flash's play. It's just the volatility of the game.
The flaws in Flash's play is exactly what caused his losses. Both players found a very specific characteristic of his play and exploited it.
If you say that (hypothetically) losing with a 14CC to a 9pool on close position is a flaw in someone's game, then Flash's play is flawed.
That's ridiculous though. His play is not flawed in the sense that he can't adapt based on scouting. The style he has is so safe and so effective that it granted him his impeccable record until he got stopped. We can safely assume Flash would've held Dear's speed shuttle reaver drops if he had seen the supports bay, despite building his 3rd already. Although, I give you that, it's tough to say Flash was gonna hold M18M's proxy gates+robo if he had seen it after building his 3rd.
The big question we have to ask is: is Flash's play exploitable in so far as there's a recipe to beating him? Is there a way other players/other protosses can continuously take advantage of his playstyle? And I don't think this can be said (yet). As long as Flash's losses can be attributed to tragic misreads or proxied all-in strategies which represent statistical swings more than legit faulty play there's no way to doubt his dominance, his position on the ranking or the well-roundedness of his style imo.
Flash could play only little more safe. If he was that good it would be enough to win anyway especially with his superior mechanics and gamesence. But he didnt and those loses can be described as bad decision making. Its unlikely that other players could lose this way because they are more aware of early aggression and they are not overconfident. Dear admited that he didnt have good results with this build in practice with other terrans. Probably because they didnt play as greedy as Flash.
"The style that he has is so safe..." In the entire PL, Flash's style is in one of the least safe echelon. Vs Soo, he made a huge gamble of rushing in with a handful of units. Vs Stork, if Stork have even attempt to move his goons to deflect drops, Flash's build would be completely nullified and have to play from behind. Same deal vs BeSt, Flash got lucky as BeSt only know what hit him when Flash already got 4 Marines with a bunker in the process of being planted.
Flash is the most abusive player of the entire season and that's a the biggest reason that contribute to his wins.
All I'm saying is: Whatever Flash is doing and however you value his playstyle, it does work consistenly, and to the extent that no player will enter a series against Flash and be confident in taking it. So unless protosses continue to exploit what has been called a flaw in his style, he's guaranteed #1 on the ranking.
On March 13 2012 11:12 Xiphos wrote:Flash is the most abusive player of the entire season ever and that's a the biggest reason that contribute to his wins makes him one of the best players ever.
Sorry if this is stating the obvious? Flash is always trying to play mindgames and take advantage of what his opponent might be thinking; that (his "enlightenment," if you will) is what turned him from 2008/9-can-only-play-PL Flash into today's God Flash. It's "abusing" what his opponents would do under normal circumstances; Flash, being smart, can often deduce this from his scans.
Dear and M18M thought outside the box a bit, tried to guess what Flash couldn't scout/adapt to, and came up with winning timing attacks. It's not impossible for other players to duplicate, but unfortunately they'll have to prepare something special for just about every match against Flash; he improvises and reacts better than any other progamer (though once in a while, he'll be sort of stubborn...)
On March 13 2012 11:04 dobrzeee wrote: Flash could play only little more safe. If he was that good it would be enough to win anyway especially with his superior mechanics and gamesence. But he didnt and those loses can be described as bad decision making. Its unlikely that other players could lose this way because they are more aware of early aggression and they are not overconfident. Dear admited that he didnt have good results with this build in practice with other terrans. Probably because they didnt play as greedy as Flash.
It's not as if "Flash only wins because he is greedy." If being greedy is all it takes, then why aren't any other Terrans able to replicate his play and success? And it's not as if players don't try to all-in or win with timing attacks against him. Usually he blocks them convincingly. Nor can it really be said that "Flash is greedy because he is overconfident."
Flash gets away with what he does because he understands the game better than any other Terran, including Fantasy who I'd like to see eventually get a #1 on PR. He is always a step ahead and only falls behind when caught off guard.
So what are you saying? That because he CAN be caught off guard that this somehow makes him less of a genius? Starcraft is a game of educated guessing. Nobody can guess right 100% of the time.
Nobody has found a way to duplicate Flash's "greed." Nobody has found a reliable way to punish him for it. With the right maps and metagame there are a few who can manage. Stork. Jangbi. Bisu. But nobody has it against Flash right now. As I've said before, that may change in OSL when Flash is forced to play on maps that are bad for Terran (Outlier, Chain Reaction), but we'll see.
It's ridiculous to think that Flash should just 'win' games by playing standard. Things like 'game sense' and 'perfect macro' are generally labels we give to things we don't understand in progames. Flash obviously has good mechanics, but most progamers can macro almost perfectly. The reason he has more stuff is he makes builds that squeeze out the most economy based on what he knows/thinks the player is up to. Obviously, this makes Flash vulnerable in certain situations, but the fact that he is right so often is a testament to how great he is at the game.
Agreed, Flash has to stay #1. He 4-0'd Leta, Best, Stork and Soulkey in emphatic fashion and got sniped twice by very good toss vs T snipers (only one in Feb). He's still a strong favourite against anyone in the league at this point. He's also generally faced with higher calibre opponents than his closest rival, Fantasy.
This actually turns out to be the same as the ranking you get if you order the players by #wins-#losses over the entire SPL season. Nonetheless, it feels about right.
Can we leave the flash #1 debate behind and actually focus on the more difficult issues this month: 1. Should Bisu drop-off the PR entirely? 2. Should Soo make an appearance, despite sucking for the first 2 rounds of proleague? 3. What order should Soulkey and Leta appear? 4. What order should Crazy-Hydra/Best/JD appear? 5. What about Last/Turn/Dear?
I don't... really think Crazy Hydra should be that high, not above Jaedong anyway. I know his winrate is better, but... my impression of his games is still not terribly amazing. He's also been playing exclusively vZ and vP (no, that travesty of a game against Light doesn't count). I guess I feel like someone in 6th place should be showing good performances against better players in all 3 matchups. Is that asking for too much? idk. (edit: and not 5 minutes after I wrote this, Jaedong just showed a disgustingly dominant ZvP)
Hard to say about Soulkey and Leta. SK had the slightly harder opponents (3/4 of TBLS within 2 weeks? dang), but lost in the head-to-head. Both died to Flash, but Leta managed to take down Jaedong who beat SK. I think I'd actually give 4th to Leta, but it could really go either way.
SoO should get CBNC. Despite his fails, he finished this round 6-0, better than any other player.
Turn, sorry bro, but your last two games have beengod awful. Goodbye, and hope to see you back on the PR again someday. Not so sure about Last as #9 either. Everyone's so quick to penalize Bisu for losing 3 games (2 since the last PR), but Last lost 4 in a row (3 since the last PR). At the risk of sounding like an unreasonable fangirl... I'm still going to suggest Dear at 9, Bisu at 10, and Last as CBNC. Idk why you would drop a guy from 6 to off the PR for going 2-2, but raise a guy from nothing to 9 for going 1-3 lol
On March 13 2012 20:18 GTR wrote: all i see from soo is that he rides off 3 hatch hydra busts in zvp.
Indeed. That's why I'm not advocating an actual PR spot. But still, hydra bust or not, he still won 6 games against a few decent players, including Stats and Light (although I admit it looked a lot like Light killed himself that game), and should get some kind of shout-out or acknowledgement for his solid, even if not inspiring performances. It's not really his fault that Protosses can't defend hydra busts ._.
I find it hilarious that SK still has such a high rank in some list when you take into account his record for this round ( yea yea I know I'm just saying...)
@ Flash being greedy, "everything dies to something" is a saying in another competitive scene you guys probably haven't heard of. The conventional wisdom is to just play your own game and make changes that maximise in game that will give the edge over your opponents.
Flash has lost like this many times before and has also won ALOT precisely because of "greed", the point is he wins on average. There have been some pretty amazing games in the past where Flash did play "standard" and got owned by mind games, that is Flashes weakness, if you cause him to make the wrong call your chances have gone up since his response won't be perfectly optimized to counter w/e it is your doing. Btw this is a lot harder than what you would think, Flash will count your workers, look at your army size, look at army composition and position.
SK will maintain a high rank because of WHO he lost to. Right now he looks very strong across the board, but he's not able to handle elite Zerg killers. But against everybody else? Easy money. PR is supposed to look past raw numbers to observe these kinds of details.
Haven't seen JD's game from this morning against Perfectman, but even if he looked like the JD of old, it's still Perfectman, so I don't see moving JD out of 6th place, which is what he deserves.
On March 13 2012 21:12 Mortality wrote: SK will maintain a high rank because of WHO he lost to. Right now he looks very strong across the board, but he's not able to handle elite Zerg killers. But against everybody else? Easy money. PR is supposed to look past raw numbers to observe these kinds of details.
Haven't seen JD's game from this morning against Perfectman, but even if he looked like the JD of old, it's still Perfectman, so I don't see moving JD out of 6th place, which is what he deserves.
When you have confidence and things go slightly according to plan you will play solid, because that is what you practice. Solid play is also effected by other things, sometimes your opponents just puts you in an awkward situation and your reaction is just sloppy or sometimes the player and observer are not looking at the same thing.
He does show clean play I'll give him that but how does SK's win list look impressive? Look at who he won then go through the records of people he won.
Every Flash build is more or less hard counter to standard play . So you can either see him winning decisively to someone who tries to play as usual, losing to player with far superior mechanics (i think its impossible :D), losing by silly mistake (not likely when he is no longer injured), or losing to build based on some very likely assumptions like he did in last two games. That tendency to exploit Flash patterns is good. It will probably lead Flash to play more safe and make his "standard games" more even. At least in TvP.
When you look at Fantasy play, he seem so mortal. He is basing on improvisation and mechanics so his edge is rather small. But he wins consistently and can comeback from unfavourable possition like vs Jaehoon or vs skyhigh. I think Flash vs Fantasy BOX now would be so epic and possibly go into the final match but still i would bet on Flash because sometimes Fantasy is just getting silly then we see him with open mouth, floating his buildings and not typing gg :D
My ranking: 1.Flash 2.Fantasy 3.Stork 4.Leta 5. JD 6. SK 7. Best 8. Last 9. Bisu 10. Dear
I put JD on 5 because we talk about power and JD should get credit just for being Jaedong. He returned to his standard form and Im sure everyone is more scared facing JD than SK. Best and Last was solid all season long, both of them had moment of crisis but too small to drop them from top10. You can think that I place Bisu on 9th only because of that SKT logo in signature. Of course his form is much worse than last season and his games are not inspiring, but he is still favoured against any zerg and has the same flashes of genius and fear factor as Jaedong. It would be perfectly fine to drop his off the list if there was more competition for last spots. Soo and CH have good records, however they won against week opponents mostly in their best mu and in uninspiring fashion. Effort, Hydra and Baby have very mixed results. Turn had 100% winrate with some lucky and risky strategies but his basic skill is lacking so he was struggling lately. I decided to give that place to Dear whos gamelist is quite funny. He played with 4 terrans, 2 games with every one of them. He won some games with slumping or bad vs T players and had one notable game vs Flash. He is even more sniper than soo or CH but he have the best record from those 3. Thats why i placed him on 10.
Every Flash build is more or less hard counter to standard play . So you can either see him winning decisively to someone who tries to play as usual, losing to player with far superior mechanics (i think its impossible :D), losing by silly mistake (not likely when he is no longer injured), or losing to build based on some very likely assumptions like he did in last two games. That tendency to exploit Flash patterns is good. It will probably lead Flash to play more safe and make his "standard games" more even. At least in TvP.
When you look at Fantasy play, he seem so mortal. He is basing on improvisation and mechanics so his edge is rather small. But he wins consistently and can comeback from unfavourable possition like vs Jaehoon or vs skyhigh. I think Flash vs Fantasy BOX now would be so epic and possibly go into the final match but still i would bet on Flash because sometimes Fantasy is just getting silly then we see him with open mouth, floating his buildings and not typing gg :D
My ranking: 1.Flash 2.Fantasy 3.Stork 4.Leta 5. JD 6. SK 7. Best 8. Last 9. Bisu 10. Dear
I put JD on 5 because we talk about power and JD should get credit just for being Jaedong. He returned to his standard form and Im sure everyone is more scared facing JD than SK. Best and Last was solid all season long, both of them had moment of crisis but too small to drop them from top10. You can think that I place Bisu on 9th only because of that SKT logo in signature. Of course his form is much worse than last season and his games are not inspiring, but he is still favoured against any zerg and has the same flashes of genius and fear factor as Jaedong. It would be perfectly fine to drop his off the list if there was more competition for last spots. Soo and CH have good records, however they won against week opponents mostly in their best mu and in uninspiring fashion. Effort, Hydra and Baby have very mixed results. Turn had 100% winrate with some lucky and risky strategies but his basic skill is lacking so he was struggling lately. I decided to give that place to Dear whos gamelist is quite funny. He played with 4 terrans, 2 games with every one of them. He won some games with slumping or bad vs T players and had one notable game vs Flash. He is even more sniper than soo or CH but he have the best record from those 3. Thats why i placed him on 10.
Eh.. I have trouble counting Last as "solid all season long" =/
And the only reason i would agree with Fantasy vs Flash BoX being Epic, is that Fantasy is a master of preparation, and always up his games several notches coming into a BoX. I think right now on a single Bo1 game, Flash is still pretty far ahead of every1 else.
This actually turns out to be the same as the ranking you get if you order the players by #wins-#losses over the entire SPL season. Nonetheless, it feels about right.
Can we leave the flash #1 debate behind and actually focus on the more difficult issues this month: 1. Should Bisu drop-off the PR entirely? 2. Should Soo make an appearance, despite sucking for the first 2 rounds of proleague? 3. What order should Soulkey and Leta appear? 4. What order should Crazy-Hydra/Best/JD appear? 5. What about Last/Turn/Dear?
I would say this is pretty accurate IMO. CH should definitely be in there for showing somewhat solid play to gain 8-2 .
Right now the only criticism that can be leveled against Flash is that it is possible for him to lose. That just goes to show why he'll continue to be #1.
On March 13 2012 21:12 Mortality wrote: SK will maintain a high rank because of WHO he lost to. Right now he looks very strong across the board, but he's not able to handle elite Zerg killers. But against everybody else? Easy money. PR is supposed to look past raw numbers to observe these kinds of details.
Haven't seen JD's game from this morning against Perfectman, but even if he looked like the JD of old, it's still Perfectman, so I don't see moving JD out of 6th place, which is what he deserves.
When you have confidence and things go slightly according to plan you will play solid, because that is what you practice. Solid play is also effected by other things, sometimes your opponents just puts you in an awkward situation and your reaction is just sloppy or sometimes the player and observer are not looking at the same thing.
He does show clean play I'll give him that but how does SK's win list look impressive? Look at who he won then go through the records of people he won.
Neo.G_Soulkey is 3-3 since the last PR, and 12-6 by my count overall this season. His games in order this period:
W vs Shuttle. Shuttle is 0-3 this season, but has only played 3 games - God only knows why, as he was probably STX's best Protoss last year and Dear and mini aren't that good. His three losses are to Jangbi, sHy, and Soulkey, so you can't tell anything one way or the other from them. Verdict: Expected win.
W vs Bisu. Speaks for itself. Verdict: good win.
L vs Flash. Completely expected. Verdict: good loss.
L vs Leta. Leta is 5-1 vs Zerg this season; his only loss is to ZerO and he's 1-1 vs ZerO on the season. His other wins are Jaedong, Crazy-Hydra, and s2. Also he's Leta, #3 TvZ ELO. Verdict: good loss.
L vs Jaedong. Jaedong is 5-1 JvZ on the season; his sole loss is to EffOrt. Verdict: good loss.
W vs TurN. TurN's a good, but not a solid player and TvZ is his worst matchup. But he has beaten Hydra this season. Verdict: Expected win.
By my count, Soulkey's beaten the players he should (Shuttle and TurN), lost to the players he should (Flash, Leta, and Jaedong), and won one game in a significant upset (vs. Bisu). With no one else being particularly spectacular of the players currently below him, he certainly shouldn't drop much. If he falls any lower than #5, there should be some raised eyebrows.
On March 13 2012 21:12 Mortality wrote: SK will maintain a high rank because of WHO he lost to. Right now he looks very strong across the board, but he's not able to handle elite Zerg killers. But against everybody else? Easy money. PR is supposed to look past raw numbers to observe these kinds of details.
Haven't seen JD's game from this morning against Perfectman, but even if he looked like the JD of old, it's still Perfectman, so I don't see moving JD out of 6th place, which is what he deserves.
When you have confidence and things go slightly according to plan you will play solid, because that is what you practice. Solid play is also effected by other things, sometimes your opponents just puts you in an awkward situation and your reaction is just sloppy or sometimes the player and observer are not looking at the same thing.
He does show clean play I'll give him that but how does SK's win list look impressive? Look at who he won then go through the records of people he won.
Neo.G_Soulkey is 3-3 since the last PR, and 12-6 by my count overall this season. His games in order this period:
W vs Shuttle. Shuttle is 0-3 this season, but has only played 3 games - God only knows why, as he was probably STX's best Protoss last year and Dear and mini aren't that good. His three losses are to Jangbi, sHy, and Soulkey, so you can't tell anything one way or the other from them. Verdict: Expected win.
W vs Bisu. Speaks for itself. Verdict: good win.
L vs Flash. Completely expected. Verdict: good loss.
L vs Leta. Leta is 5-1 vs Zerg this season; his only loss is to ZerO and he's 1-1 vs ZerO on the season. His other wins are Jaedong, Crazy-Hydra, and s2. Also he's Leta, #3 TvZ ELO. Verdict: good loss.
L vs Jaedong. Jaedong is 5-1 JvZ on the season; his sole loss is to EffOrt. Verdict: good loss.
W vs TurN. TurN's a good, but not a solid player and TvZ is his worst matchup. But he has beaten Hydra this season. Verdict: Expected win.
By my count, Soulkey's beaten the players he should (Shuttle and TurN), lost to the players he should (Flash, Leta, and Jaedong), and won one game in a significant upset (vs. Bisu). With no one else being particularly spectacular of the players currently below him, he certainly shouldn't drop much. If he falls any lower than #5, there should be some raised eyebrows.
This, pretty much.
Since we are comparing Soulkey and Jaedong (because I think nearly everyone has the top 4 as Flash, Fantasy, Stork and Leta in that order), let me add to your post...
In R3 Jaedong has done this: Win vs Mini, who is 2-2 this season (and lifetime in important games). Although he certainly looked good vs Effort, that just isn't much to go on. So, looking at his stats from prelims and minor leagues I see he is 3-14 lifetime. Ouch. JD win is expected.
Win vs Orion. Orion only has 1 W in his last 10 ZvZ and is 6-18 lifetime and is 0-2 in ZvZ this season. Ironically his last W was over JD. Expected win.
Loss vs Leta. Pretty one-sided game. Leta also butchered Soulkey, also on the same map. Given JD's recent ZvT form and the map (im)balance, I think this loss was expected.
Win vs Soulkey. This actually matters for something since we are comparing these 2 head-to-head. But, again, I've been saying for a while that JD is standing out as the best ZvZer right now, but looks less balanced overall. Good win.
Win vs Perfectman. PMan is 8-12 lifetime and 4-6 in his past 10 PvZ (both 40%), 0-1 this season. Expected win.
So we can observe: -Soulkey has a worse record this round -BUT Soulkey has faced harder opponents with 4 S-class Zerg killers in the world (Flash, Bisu, JD and Leta), whereas JD only faced 1 S-class Zerg killer (Leta) as well as 1 high A-class Zerg killer (Soulkey himself).
Looking out at the entire season... -JD shows stronger ZvZ with his only loss to Effort, where he had a BO disadvantage. His second game against Modesty stands out as brilliant. -Soulkey has the stronger ZvT resume. Both have lost to Flash and Leta. JD has also lost to Canata, while Soulkey also lost to FBH (a stronger TvZer) with both those extra losses on Ground Zero. JD only has 2 ZvT wins over Mind and over Ssak. The win vs Ssak was a 5 pool against FE with JD scouting in the correct direction, which although still a win shows us very little. Soulkey's 4 wins are Bogus (a solid but not great TvZer who is 58% lifetime vs Z, 59% last 12 months, 2-2 this season), Piano, Sea and Turn. -Soulkey has the stronger ZvP resume as well. Most important in that is his win over Bisu, but he's also tackled Movie who has a strong PvZ history. He's beaten Sun and Shuttle as well, but neither of those wins stands out. His only loss was to Best, who ALSO beat Jaedong. Meanwhile, JD also lost to Snow and has beaten M18M (weak PvZ), Free (weak right now at PvZ), Flying (weak PvZ and an EPIC FAIL game), as well as Mini and PerfectMan.
I see Soulkey as the stronger candidate based on results this season, which accounts for all games played in the last 6 months. In order to get JD as being stronger on paper, you really need to go out to more like 12 months when he was destroying Terrans left and right and qualifying for semifinals.
On March 13 2012 21:12 Mortality wrote: SK will maintain a high rank because of WHO he lost to. Right now he looks very strong across the board, but he's not able to handle elite Zerg killers. But against everybody else? Easy money. PR is supposed to look past raw numbers to observe these kinds of details.
Haven't seen JD's game from this morning against Perfectman, but even if he looked like the JD of old, it's still Perfectman, so I don't see moving JD out of 6th place, which is what he deserves.
When you have confidence and things go slightly according to plan you will play solid, because that is what you practice. Solid play is also effected by other things, sometimes your opponents just puts you in an awkward situation and your reaction is just sloppy or sometimes the player and observer are not looking at the same thing.
He does show clean play I'll give him that but how does SK's win list look impressive? Look at who he won then go through the records of people he won.
Neo.G_Soulkey is 3-3 since the last PR, and 12-6 by my count overall this season. His games in order this period:
W vs Shuttle. Shuttle is 0-3 this season, but has only played 3 games - God only knows why, as he was probably STX's best Protoss last year and Dear and mini aren't that good. His three losses are to Jangbi, sHy, and Soulkey, so you can't tell anything one way or the other from them. Verdict: Expected win.
W vs Bisu. Speaks for itself. Verdict: good win.
L vs Flash. Completely expected. Verdict: good loss.
L vs Leta. Leta is 5-1 vs Zerg this season; his only loss is to ZerO and he's 1-1 vs ZerO on the season. His other wins are Jaedong, Crazy-Hydra, and s2. Also he's Leta, #3 TvZ ELO. Verdict: good loss.
L vs Jaedong. Jaedong is 5-1 JvZ on the season; his sole loss is to EffOrt. Verdict: good loss.
W vs TurN. TurN's a good, but not a solid player and TvZ is his worst matchup. But he has beaten Hydra this season. Verdict: Expected win.
By my count, Soulkey's beaten the players he should (Shuttle and TurN), lost to the players he should (Flash, Leta, and Jaedong), and won one game in a significant upset (vs. Bisu). With no one else being particularly spectacular of the players currently below him, he certainly shouldn't drop much. If he falls any lower than #5, there should be some raised eyebrows.
This, pretty much.
Since we are comparing Soulkey and Jaedong (because I think nearly everyone has the top 4 as Flash, Fantasy, Stork and Leta in that order), let me add to your post...
In R3 Jaedong has done this: Win vs Mini, who is 2-2 this season (and lifetime in important games). Although he certainly looked good vs Effort, that just isn't much to go on. So, looking at his stats from prelims and minor leagues I see he is 3-14 lifetime. Ouch. JD win is expected.
Win vs Orion. Orion only has 1 W in his last 10 ZvZ and is 6-18 lifetime and is 0-2 in ZvZ this season. Ironically his last W was over JD. Expected win.
Loss vs Leta. Pretty one-sided game. Leta also butchered Soulkey, also on the same map. Given JD's recent ZvT form and the map (im)balance, I think this loss was expected.
Win vs Soulkey. This actually matters for something since we are comparing these 2 head-to-head. But, again, I've been saying for a while that JD is standing out as the best ZvZer right now, but looks less balanced overall. Good win.
Win vs Perfectman. PMan is 8-12 lifetime and 4-6 in his past 10 PvZ (both 40%), 0-1 this season. Expected win.
So we can observe: -Soulkey has a worse record this round -BUT Soulkey has faced harder opponents with 4 S-class Zerg killers in the world (Flash, Bisu, JD and Leta), whereas JD only faced 1 S-class Zerg killer (Leta) as well as 1 high A-class Zerg killer (Soulkey himself).
Looking out at the entire season... -JD shows stronger ZvZ with his only loss to Effort, where he had a BO disadvantage. His second game against Modesty stands out as brilliant. -Soulkey has the stronger ZvT resume. Both have lost to Flash and Leta. JD has also lost to Canata, while Soulkey also lost to FBH (a stronger TvZer) with both those extra losses on Ground Zero. JD only has 2 ZvT wins over Mind and over Ssak. The win vs Ssak was a 5 pool against FE with JD scouting in the correct direction, which although still a win shows us very little. Soulkey's 4 wins are Bogus (a solid but not great TvZer who is 58% lifetime vs Z, 59% last 12 months, 2-2 this season), Piano, Sea and Turn. -Soulkey has the stronger ZvP resume as well. Most important in that is his win over Bisu, but he's also tackled Movie who has a strong PvZ history. He's beaten Sun and Shuttle as well, but neither of those wins stands out. His only loss was to Best, who ALSO beat Jaedong. Meanwhile, JD also lost to Snow and has beaten M18M (weak PvZ), Free (weak right now at PvZ), Flying (weak PvZ and an EPIC FAIL game), as well as Mini and PerfectMan.
I see Soulkey as the stronger candidate based on results this season, which accounts for all games played in the last 6 months. In order to get JD as being stronger on paper, you really need to go out to more like 12 months when he was destroying Terrans left and right and qualifying for semifinals.
Last round JD vs:
Best who has shown monstrous PvZ Snow who trained very hard to beat JD last yr so I say he has a much higher chance than a normal protoss Canata who prepared a completely new build ( I'm sure when u play in familar territory your plays will be much crisper) Flash
ZvZ JD beat a zvz sniper twice and also beat SK, I don't think SK managed to kill a single drone with his zerglings in the earlier part of the game.
ZvP Soulkey abused Bisu wall( strange you mention the 5 pool but gloss over this)
ZvT SK beat Bogus
Not saying they both should be knocked out. They're both very good this season, except you just expect more from JD but didn't get it so that leaves you more dissatisfied.
You are biased. JD won zvz 3 times in the row from unfavourable BO (maybe even BO loss) including zvz sniper Modesty and Soulkey himself. And you say SK win over Bisu is crucial when comparing these two players. Sure, that win looks good on paper but go watch it. You say 5pool against ssak doesnt counts then why you treat ling runby vs no defense as something that make difference. JD did better than SK since last PR and he has the same record from entire season. Conclusion - JD should be higher than SK. You want place JD lower than he deserves only because he is not as dominant as Flash right now.
The fewness of games is a serious problem, and leads to too much weight being placed on individual games. When even a crappy player has a 30% chance to win a game (not many ppl over 70% win avg), the same set is way too small to be decisive.
It means that gut feeling (subjective opinion of strength) is the main determining factor.
On March 14 2012 07:58 dobrzeee wrote: You are biased. JD won zvz 3 times in the row from unfavourable BO (maybe even BO loss) including zvz sniper Modesty and Soulkey himself. And you say SK win over Bisu is crucial when comparing these two players. Sure, that win looks good on paper but go watch it. You say 5pool against ssak doesnt counts then why you treat ling runby vs no defense as something that make difference. JD did better than SK since last PR and he has the same record from entire season. Conclusion - JD should be higher than SK. You want place JD lower than he deserves only because he is not as dominant as Flash right now.
I'll freely admit I'm biased, though I try to avoid that when making arguments (also JvZ is the best thing in BW when it's operative, but that's a different discussion). Anyway, here's the game in question, Soulkey vs Bisu.
Yes, it's a ling runby. At the same time, it's more impressive if you can time a runby vs Bisu than if you do the same thing to Sun (or even BeSt who is notoriously bad vs. early game shenanigans). By the same token, it would be more impressive to proxy-reaver Flash than to do it to FBH.
On the other hand, it's not just a successful cheese: there was a major error on Bisu's part. He never scouted Soulkey's first expansion (at the 3 o'clock base) and didn't even start looking for it until the ling attack was en route despite getting no scouting on the natural. From the evidence (Soulkey's careful keeping the 1st probe in his main + the usual non-natural 1st expansion will mostly be to the main across the map from the Protoss main) it's even entirely possible that Soulkey went for the runby based on that failure from Bisu.
One way or another it's not one of the more impressive wins against Bisu that will ever be accomplished, but still - it's Bisu.
On March 14 2012 07:58 dobrzeee wrote: You are biased. JD won zvz 3 times in the row from unfavourable BO (maybe even BO loss) including zvz sniper Modesty and Soulkey himself. And you say SK win over Bisu is crucial when comparing these two players. Sure, that win looks good on paper but go watch it. You say 5pool against ssak doesnt counts then why you treat ling runby vs no defense as something that make difference. JD did better than SK since last PR and he has the same record from entire season. Conclusion - JD should be higher than SK. You want place JD lower than he deserves only because he is not as dominant as Flash right now.
There's a massive difference between Jaedong's 5-pool and SK's Ling Bust.
Jaedong blindly commited to an all-in build that could have easily died had some things not go his way (scouting the wrong way, cross spawn, safe build by T).
Soulkey knew exactly what's going on on his opponent's side (granted by the luck that he scouted right). Had Bisu reinforced a sturdier wall, he could have just droned instead of Linged, and it could have transitioned into a relatively normal game (he still would have wasted a few Larvae, and an unfavourable position of a 3rd, but that's a lot less deadly than a failed 5-pool). Bisu didn't make a huge mistake either. One will wanna keep his scout probe in Zerg's main to keep an eye on his tech (bringing it out means kissing "going back in" goodbye). The 3rd's position usually isn't important, and can be left till later (unless there's a surprised bust like what happened, of course), especially in this case when the "likely third" is cross-map. Now im not saying SK didn't all-in, he did. But there's more thought and less risk in his build than Jaedong's 5-pool.
Funny how people are dissing Jaedong for his blind all-in 5-pool yet at the same time call Flash's proxy rax or retarded vZ early pushes the pinnacle and genius of metagaming. Just sayin'
People read what they want to read apparently. Nobody is dissing Jaedong for doing a 5 pool, okay? What we are saying is that the game in question doesn't show much because it's a BLIND all-in build with lucky positions that hard counters what his opponent did.
And there is a HUGE difference between a 5 pool and a timed all-in or a proxy rax. I find it hard to believe that people on this forum do not understand that difference.
On March 14 2012 13:09 Sethronu wrote: Funny how people are dissing Jaedong for his blind all-in 5-pool yet at the same time call Flash's proxy rax or retarded vZ early pushes the pinnacle and genius of metagaming. Just sayin'
JD's 5 pool was meant to kill the opponent Flash's proxy rax was to gain economic advantage. Just sayin'
On March 13 2012 21:12 Mortality wrote: SK will maintain a high rank because of WHO he lost to. Right now he looks very strong across the board, but he's not able to handle elite Zerg killers. But against everybody else? Easy money. PR is supposed to look past raw numbers to observe these kinds of details.
Haven't seen JD's game from this morning against Perfectman, but even if he looked like the JD of old, it's still Perfectman, so I don't see moving JD out of 6th place, which is what he deserves.
When you have confidence and things go slightly according to plan you will play solid, because that is what you practice. Solid play is also effected by other things, sometimes your opponents just puts you in an awkward situation and your reaction is just sloppy or sometimes the player and observer are not looking at the same thing.
He does show clean play I'll give him that but how does SK's win list look impressive? Look at who he won then go through the records of people he won.
Neo.G_Soulkey is 3-3 since the last PR, and 12-6 by my count overall this season. His games in order this period:
W vs Shuttle. Shuttle is 0-3 this season, but has only played 3 games - God only knows why, as he was probably STX's best Protoss last year and Dear and mini aren't that good. His three losses are to Jangbi, sHy, and Soulkey, so you can't tell anything one way or the other from them. Verdict: Expected win.
W vs Bisu. Speaks for itself. Verdict: good win.
L vs Flash. Completely expected. Verdict: good loss.
L vs Leta. Leta is 5-1 vs Zerg this season; his only loss is to ZerO and he's 1-1 vs ZerO on the season. His other wins are Jaedong, Crazy-Hydra, and s2. Also he's Leta, #3 TvZ ELO. Verdict: good loss.
L vs Jaedong. Jaedong is 5-1 JvZ on the season; his sole loss is to EffOrt. Verdict: good loss. + Show Spoiler +
W vs TurN. TurN's a good, but not a solid player and TvZ is his worst matchup. But he has beaten Hydra this season. Verdict: Expected win.
By my count, Soulkey's beaten the players he should (Shuttle and TurN), lost to the players he should (Flash, Leta, and Jaedong), and won one game in a significant upset (vs. Bisu). With no one else being particularly spectacular of the players currently below him, he certainly shouldn't drop much. If he falls any lower than #5, there should be some raised eyebrows
.
Soulkey had BO win/advantage. Bad Loss. ZvZ is volatile, i don't know why people keep disregarding things like BO. Even at 80% win rate, JvZ had volatility, only Calm capitalized on it.
JD has not been spectacular as of late, and the same can be said about soulkey. Is it better to lose to great opponents or to win against average opponents? This time, i would say to win is better because soulkey didn't do anything to put up a fight against his opponents that he lost to. To me, JD is 3-1 (only ZvZ where he went against BO loss/disadvantage counts) and soulkey is 2-2.
I think SK should be put above JD. I will not explain why, nor will I try to make analysis of their games. It is not because, lol, SK beat Bisu, or JD lost to Leta. I think SK has much to prove and this fuels his ambitions. JD is just an old skilled and experienced player. The hunger for victory and recognition will always prevail. (However, I still haven't seen from SK JD-style macro mechanics and multitasking)
Soo is also not doing hydra busts in the dark. He deny probe scout and do some scouting by himself. But as I said earlier I dont think these games are that meaningful. Especially when someone have wide open entrance just asking for a runby. And I wont change my mind only because it is Bisu who as we know like to mix moments of brilliance with 'wtf what is he doing'.
On March 14 2012 13:36 Mortality wrote: People read what they want to read apparently. Nobody is dissing Jaedong for doing a 5 pool, okay? What we are saying is that the game in question doesn't show much because it's a BLIND all-in build with lucky positions that hard counters what his opponent did.
And there is a HUGE difference between a 5 pool and a timed all-in or a proxy rax. I find it hard to believe that people on this forum do not understand that difference.
A failed timed all-in is pretty much game over.
A proxy rax against builds like 9 pool will just lose the game.
I don't even know why you think JD has anything to prove in ZvT, fact is Canata used a completely random build that no one expected.
His lost against leta is bad sure letting your hydras change targets isn't really something that should happen but in SK's game did you even realise that SK managed to get serveral lings through the marine vulture wall, one of which he just left at the natural? I don't know what happened maybe he had a brainfart and decided to macro instead of scout.
I don't even know why everyone is making a big deal out of the SK vs Bisu game, Bisu screwed up and SK took advantage of it.
I'm not saying SK should be taken out of the rankings( thats stupid) but the ranking is stupid because JD is being punished for being the Tyrant.
On March 14 2012 13:36 Mortality wrote: People read what they want to read apparently. Nobody is dissing Jaedong for doing a 5 pool, okay? What we are saying is that the game in question doesn't show much because it's a BLIND all-in build with lucky positions that hard counters what his opponent did.
And there is a HUGE difference between a 5 pool and a timed all-in or a proxy rax. I find it hard to believe that people on this forum do not understand that difference.
A failed timed all-in is pretty much game over.
A proxy rax against builds like 9 pool will just lose the game.
I don't even know why you think JD has anything to prove in ZvT, fact is Canata used a completely random build that no one expected.
His lost against leta is bad sure letting your hydras change targets isn't really something that should happen but in SK's game did you even realise that SK managed to get serveral lings through the marine vulture wall, one of which he just left at the natural? I don't know what happened maybe he had a brainfart and decided to macro instead of scout.
I don't even know why everyone is making a big deal out of the SK vs Bisu game, Bisu screwed up and SK took advantage of it.
I'm not saying SK should be taken out of the rankings( thats stupid) but the ranking is stupid because JD is being punished for being the Tyrant.
A timed all-in requires that you scout your opponent and understand what he is doing. How you can say that's the same thing as a blind all-in is beyond me.
Did Flash even do a proxy rax vs Zerg at all? I'm not sure of the relevance of this remark.
Canata's build wasn't nearly so special as you are acting. It's just a variant of the Valkyrie+bionic strategy we've seen before. Fantasy used a similar strategy in his game vs Calm, but switched away from valks when he saw Calm was going for a ground break. The game was won because JD made a BIG mistake by trading his 3rd base just to kill 3 of Canata's valks. He should have pulled his mutas back from Canata's base and brought his scourge up to help. He didn't lose to a magic build. He lost due to bad decision making.
The Leta games were both one-sided. I'm not sure why we're even talking about them.
Even if you dismiss the game vs Bisu, SK STILL has a stronger record vs Protoss. His opponents were harder.
What I'm wondering is why you think JD is being punished so badly. I am suggesting: 1. Flash, 2. Fantasy, 3. Stork, 4. Leta, 5. SK, 6. Jaedong.
So apparently since I'm punishing JD for being the Tyrant, then you think he should be ranked 2 or 3 or something? :/
On March 14 2012 13:09 Sethronu wrote: Funny how people are dissing Jaedong for his blind all-in 5-pool yet at the same time call Flash's proxy rax or retarded vZ early pushes the pinnacle and genius of metagaming. Just sayin'
JD's 5 pool was meant to kill the opponent Flash's proxy rax was to gain economic advantage. Just sayin'
there arent any unorthodox openings zerg can do these days that are aggressive and economic
On March 14 2012 13:09 Sethronu wrote: Funny how people are dissing Jaedong for his blind all-in 5-pool yet at the same time call Flash's proxy rax or retarded vZ early pushes the pinnacle and genius of metagaming. Just sayin'
JD's 5 pool was meant to kill the opponent Flash's proxy rax was to gain economic advantage. Just sayin'
there arent any unorthodox openings zerg can do these days that are aggressive and economic
I dont understand what you are trying to say. Just because Zerg do not have any unorthodox opening means they have to 5 pool???
On March 14 2012 13:09 Sethronu wrote: Funny how people are dissing Jaedong for his blind all-in 5-pool yet at the same time call Flash's proxy rax or retarded vZ early pushes the pinnacle and genius of metagaming. Just sayin'
JD's 5 pool was meant to kill the opponent Flash's proxy rax was to gain economic advantage. Just sayin'
there arent any unorthodox openings zerg can do these days that are aggressive and economic
I dont understand what you are trying to say. Just because Terran have so many options means that they have to proxy rax???
On March 14 2012 13:09 Sethronu wrote: Funny how people are dissing Jaedong for his blind all-in 5-pool yet at the same time call Flash's proxy rax or retarded vZ early pushes the pinnacle and genius of metagaming. Just sayin'
JD's 5 pool was meant to kill the opponent Flash's proxy rax was to gain economic advantage. Just sayin'
there arent any unorthodox openings zerg can do these days that are aggressive and economic
I dont understand what you are trying to say. Just because Zerg do not have any unorthodox opening means they have to 5 pool???
No... only that the comparison is a little bit unfair because early rax is never as all in as early pool.
I wonder if Ver could make a power rank some time. I would love to read that because I feel that no one of us who are posting in this thread really understands what is going on when the pros are playing. At least we can count their wins, I guess...
Maybe, but then there won't be any new data for those players on a post-PO ranking.
SK and JD wouldn't really be hurt if the next ranking waits until after the PO. Arguably Last, Calm, Dear etc. could be hurt, but none of them are guaranteed a spot even right now.
On March 16 2012 02:57 Mortality wrote: Maybe, but then there won't be any new data for those players on a post-PO ranking.
SK and JD wouldn't really be hurt if the next ranking waits until after the PO. Arguably Last, Calm, Dear etc. could be hurt, but none of them are guaranteed a spot even right now.
Everyone can be effected, both positively or negatively. If Stork and/or Leta falter badly in the playoffs, SK and Jaedong can easily move up. On the flip side, if someone like Crazy-Hydra or Turn go on an insane playoff streak(say 5-1 or 4-0 records) he would probably get into the top 5 and bump these guys lower.
Are they likely to be affected? Probably not. But it's not unreasonable to see both players getting higher or lower ranking come post-PO.
You can't really separate teams that didn't make PO from teams that did for PR. That defeats the whole purpose of the PR, which is to rank the 10 hottest players on the planet.
Dear's victory has lost the imagery momentum everyone was giving to him. Of course with certain people sucking, he's still not totally out of the picture, but he was being overrated as hell.
Speaking of temporary momentum Action should be on the list somewhere. He was supposed to be the hardest working programer back on eSTRO and now that he has a real coaching staff/practice partners (no offense eSTRO fans) he is being pretty clutch.
On March 20 2012 23:33 Dental Floss wrote: Speaking of temporary momentum Action should be on the list somewhere. He was supposed to be the hardest working programer back on eSTRO and now that he has a real coaching staff/practice partners (no offense eSTRO fans) he is being pretty clutch.
He wasn't even paid to be on eSTRO so no kdding that he's working hard.
He's supposed to have a huge huge passion for the game in that it is very fun, according to Hwanni they called him practice terminator in the estro house cus of his out of schedule practice sessions which usually was before the rest of the teamhouse woke up at all.
On March 20 2012 23:33 Dental Floss wrote: Speaking of temporary momentum Action should be on the list somewhere. He was supposed to be the hardest working programer back on eSTRO and now that he has a real coaching staff/practice partners (no offense eSTRO fans) he is being pretty clutch.
Yes he does well in the playoffs.. But i believe those 3 games shouldn't be able to overwrite his horrendous regular reason performance enough to push him into the PR. A shoutout if you wanna give him some encouragement, but a PR spot ...
Unless I'm mistaken, next weekend is the offline prelims for OSL and April 7 is the PL GF. I'm actually starting to think it would be better for the ranking to happen before next weekend, since this will mean that all players will get a chance to play between this upcoming ranking and the ranking that follows. Otherwise you have plenty of games for this rank, but the next rank will suffer from having ONLY the actual OSL tournament unless we wait all the way until... Late May???!!!
I'm going to assume the ranking will still only happen AFTER the GF, but now that OSL is on, I just don't think that's necessary.
Currently, my top 6 remain the same:
1. Flash - in spite of dropping 3 games to Protoss, he is looking ridiculously scary. His invincibility aura has been broken, but he's still the best Starcraft player in the world. 2. Fantasy - just don't bother arguing 3. Stork - since I last wrote he went 2-1, dropping a game against Stats due to a combination of BO disadvantage and a tactical mistake (the pylon he placed to disrupt Stats's movements ended up disrupting his own), but he promptly earned revenge in the rematch. He's looking very well rounded, but just not quite on the level of either guy ahead of him. 4. Leta - has gone 1-2 since I last wrote. His loss to Hoejja dropped him from #3 TvZ by ELO to #4 (behind Flash, Light and Fantasy), but he still looks stunning there, with recent wins over SK and JD and an impressive win rate. I'm a biiiiiit concerned by his TvP. In his first match against Stats he was completely out-classed. His harassment was excellent, but Stats had a perfect defense to counter it and so the game boiled down to timing, where Stats was light years ahead, from the early goon harass to the main push (omfg the storms!), where I personally think Leta botched the timing by moving too soon. But in the rematch, OMG THE MINES!!! What it boils down to is that Leta is a bit too dependent on his harassment and needs to beef up his TvP fundamentals. 5. Soulkey - I'm not going to go through the SK vs Jaedong argument again, except to say that I think Soulkey is more well-rounded at the moment and more consistent. 6. Jaedong - When he brings it he looks awesome, but when he doesn't bring it... well, we've seen a few definite fail moments out of him this season. Jaedong is somewhat hurt by the fact that he simply hasn't brought it against Terran this season, simply getting rolled by competent TvZ play. Netizens who give JD the benefit of the doubt and point out (correctly) that the sample is only 5 games don't seem to remember how long ago last season was. Usually I'm telling people not to think too short term, but when last season was 8 months ago I just can't consider any of that data as valid, except for considering trends, which is not what's going on.
After that the murkiness sets in. Candidates I think deserve attention:
Hoejja - The hero of the playoffs. Who would have though that Hoejja's role would be even more critical than Flash's to getting KT to the GF? Check it out: Hydra isn't doing all that great this season, but eliminating him on Outlier where he is 6-3 (counting this game) is a big deal. Also taking Effort AND Leta out of CJ's line-up?! And then beating Shine might not mean *too much* but it was the game that capped off the series against Khan. I think Hoejja has earned a place on the ranking, although exactly where is a tough question.
Crazy-Hydra - I'm not sold on his ZvT even though he is 1-1 against S-class players, partly because his win over Light was on Outlier in a retarded game that he could not possibly lose, but he looks quite solid vs Z and P both. Still, I think the 7 game win streak he wracked up has left him a bit over rated. I though that Grape did a nice job exposing some holes in Crazy-Hydra's play. CBNC at the least, but an actual ranking is questionable.
Soo - Comparable to Crazy-Hydra in terms of having a mammoth win streak that on paper makes him a solid pick, but again I'm just not fully seeing it, this time even less so. Soo is a player whose ZvP seems to produce wicked results whenever Hydra bursts are in vogue and pathetic results when the Protoss timing adjusts to make the old Hydra burst timing irrelevant. Like Crazy-Hydra, he also has a retarded win over Light, in which he won with... a Hydra bust! Ironically they could face each other in the Finals. I don't really think there's a rivalry between Fanta/Bisu and Flash/Stats even though some comparisons can certainly be made, but I think that in a twisted sort of way there is definitely a Soo vs Crazy-Hydra rivalry going on right now.
Stats - His recent record... hasn't been that good. By my count, he's 5-6 since the start of R3, so why am I even mentioning him? Because I think his play has been really good, on the whole. Well, this may be a tough sell, but I'd easily pick Stats as the better player over someone like Crazy-Hydra or Soo who has a lot more momentum at the moment. Mainly I just think that Stats has been placed in a harder role and looked better. Not saying he should be ranked, but a good win over a stronger SKT player (assuming the ranking waits) like Fantasy or Bisu would make you almost HAVE to rank him. I'm seeing in Stats right now something kind of like what I saw in Zero around Dec 2010, back when he was known as being good, but hadn't broken out yet. Stats has obviously received a lot more attention and hype than Zero did prior to breaking out, and I think that's starting to play against him since fans are now falling into either the "Stats <3" camp or the "bleh, over rated" camp. If Stats ever has his time, I think it will be now.
(speaking of Zero, he seems to be starting to find his footing again, although I'm not going to give him any more mention than that)
Bisu - Only 2-2 since the last ranking, so a bit hard to judge. SKT has this tendency NOT to have Fanta and Bisu both at the front of their line-up. Sometimes that bites them in the ass, but in R3 it seems to have worked just fine. On the whole I'm a little underwhelmed by Bisu this season and if the ranking comes out before the GF I'd be inclined to say to leave him off.
Dear - The player everyone seems to have picked as the next bonjwa. Breaking Flash's win streak was a big deal, but TBH I found Horang2's win more meaningful and Dear simply does not have any other accomplishment to his name. As I've said before, I wouldn't throw a tantrum if he made it on, but I kind of hope he is left with CBNC or Shout Out at most. Before we talk about Dear on the ranking we should talk about Horang2 on the ranking. But I don't really think Horang2 deserves to be ranked right now either.
Calm - On paper calm is a ZvP sniper right now, but I think that compared to someone like Soo or Crazy-Hydra he has more depth. All season long he has faced a respectable line-up and gone unnoticed, mainly because he lacks any of the really high profile wins or win streaks other players have achieved, but that's probably not fair. With Bogus and Last both fading, I'm not sure even Flash could have picked up the slack for STX.
Best - I saved the Best for last. Ahahahaha... no, really. Best is 5-1 since the last ranking, with his only loss to Flash doing an all-in. Best is really the player who took SKT to the #1 spot, and for that I think he deserves to be ranked.
I think your last 3 places are biased by KT playoff results. This is exactly what everyone was expecting to happen when power rank was not released right after R3. Although Hoejja 5 win streak including some wins against vsZ specialists like Leta Effort and Hydra looks solid this is still only ZvZ and 1 ZvT on Outlier. If you look at these achivements its similar to Dear with good results in one matchup and Soo or CH wins vs T on Outlier that looks great on paper. Hoejja games are fresh, Dear's are so distant now the same with Last or Bisu. All of them was competing for last spots with CH, Soo and maybe Stats Dear, CH, Soo and now Hoejja are group with good record but also a lot to prove while Bisu and Stats are group who used to play better than now but are still solid and are favourites against most of players. Last is somewhere between these 2 groups. Its unfair that deciding factor is long time since last game. Its really hard to judge now.
I don't see the problem with the ranking being "biased by KT playoff results". Actually they're not biased at all. Hoejja and Crazy-Hydra could secure a spot in the top 10 which they deserve (imo) and Stats takes a dive because he simply didn't maintain his previous form.
Of course the playoffs influence the ranking. I, too, would have liked to have a ranking right before the playoffs but, given that there wasn't one, the PO games have to be taken into account. Calling this "biased" which has a clearly derogatory annotation is weird.
And about the comparison with Dear etc: I think one has to consider that a) playoff games are more important to the team than regular season games and b) it's a question of performing well under pressure, against high caliber opponents. Dear didn't (hasn't been given the opportunity to) prove that he can, so Hoejja should get preference over him.
Hoejja worked his way on due to the PO. Crazy-Hydra was on just about everybody's rank BEFORE the PO. Stats is debatable and only added tentatively. I could just as easily have put Calm or even Bisu in that position.
Last went 2-2 in R3, but more importantly is 2-4 in his last 6. He is not someone I would consider ranking even if the PO did not happen. A CBNC could be argued, but not an actual PR position.
Bisu I also talked about. The fact that he only played 4 games in R3 is working against him, but it wouldn't really have helped him to have the ranking released at the end of R3. Bisu is in the position right now that when he wins it looks really solid, but when he loses it looks really ugly, which makes it even harder for you to rate him. If you judge by his best moments of course you will give him a high rating, but if you judge by his worst moments you cannot even consider him for the ranking. That really does not have anything to do with his games being distant.
I've talked about Dear's record for the entire season before. Other than his win vs Flash, he has not done anything significant. A string of easy wins doesn't show me that he's a strong PvT sniper. I'm not trying to diminish the attention to detail it took to devise the strategy to counter Flash, but if we're just talking that, Flash has lost twice more since then.
Hoejja's ZvT win vs Leta should not be compared to Soo or CH. It was a much better game that actually showed what both players are capable of.
On March 26 2012 10:47 Mortality wrote: Hoejja worked his way on due to the PO. Crazy-Hydra was on just about everybody's rank BEFORE the PO. Stats is debatable and only added tentatively. I could just as easily have put Calm or even Bisu in that position.
Last went 2-2 in R3, but more importantly is 2-4 in his last 6. He is not someone I would consider ranking even if the PO did not happen. A CBNC could be argued, but not an actual PR position.
Bisu I also talked about. The fact that he only played 4 games in R3 is working against him, but it wouldn't really have helped him to have the ranking released at the end of R3. Bisu is in the position right now that when he wins it looks really solid, but when he loses it looks really ugly, which makes it even harder for you to rate him. If you judge by his best moments of course you will give him a high rating, but if you judge by his worst moments you cannot even consider him for the ranking. That really does not have anything to do with his games being distant.
I've talked about Dear's record for the entire season before. Other than his win vs Flash, he has not done anything significant. A string of easy wins doesn't show me that he's a strong PvT sniper. I'm not trying to diminish the attention to detail it took to devise the strategy to counter Flash, but if we're just talking that, Flash has lost twice more since then.
Hoejja's ZvT win vs Leta should not be compared to Soo or CH. It was a much better game that actually showed what both players are capable of.
I concur with this statement presumably the reference is to Hoejja and Leta.
Unless I'm mistaken, next weekend is the offline prelims for OSL and April 7 is the PL GF. I'm actually starting to think it would be better for the ranking to happen before next weekend, since this will mean that all players will get a chance to play between this upcoming ranking and the ranking that follows. Otherwise you have plenty of games for this rank, but the next rank will suffer from having ONLY the actual OSL tournament unless we wait all the way until... Late May???!!!
I'm going to assume the ranking will still only happen AFTER the GF, but now that OSL is on, I just don't think that's necessary.
Currently, my top 6 remain the same:
1. Flash - in spite of dropping 3 games to Protoss, he is looking ridiculously scary. His invincibility aura has been broken, but he's still the best Starcraft player in the world. 2. Fantasy - just don't bother arguing 3. Stork - since I last wrote he went 2-1, dropping a game against Stats due to a combination of BO disadvantage and a tactical mistake (the pylon he placed to disrupt Stats's movements ended up disrupting his own), but he promptly earned revenge in the rematch. He's looking very well rounded, but just not quite on the level of either guy ahead of him. 4. Leta - has gone 1-2 since I last wrote. His loss to Hoejja dropped him from #3 TvZ by ELO to #4 (behind Flash, Light and Fantasy), but he still looks stunning there, with recent wins over SK and JD and an impressive win rate. I'm a biiiiiit concerned by his TvP. In his first match against Stats he was completely out-classed. His harassment was excellent, but Stats had a perfect defense to counter it and so the game boiled down to timing, where Stats was light years ahead, from the early goon harass to the main push (omfg the storms!), where I personally think Leta botched the timing by moving too soon. But in the rematch, OMG THE MINES!!! What it boils down to is that Leta is a bit too dependent on his harassment and needs to beef up his TvP fundamentals. 5. Soulkey - I'm not going to go through the SK vs Jaedong argument again, except to say that I think Soulkey is more well-rounded at the moment and more consistent. 6. Jaedong - When he brings it he looks awesome, but when he doesn't bring it... well, we've seen a few definite fail moments out of him this season. Jaedong is somewhat hurt by the fact that he simply hasn't brought it against Terran this season, simply getting rolled by competent TvZ play. Netizens who give JD the benefit of the doubt and point out (correctly) that the sample is only 5 games don't seem to remember how long ago last season was. Usually I'm telling people not to think too short term, but when last season was 8 months ago I just can't consider any of that data as valid, except for considering trends, which is not what's going on.
After that the murkiness sets in. Candidates I think deserve attention:
Hoejja - The hero of the playoffs. Who would have though that Hoejja's role would be even more critical than Flash's to getting KT to the GF? Check it out: Hydra isn't doing all that great this season, but eliminating him on Outlier where he is 6-3 (counting this game) is a big deal. Also taking Effort AND Leta out of CJ's line-up?! And then beating Shine might not mean *too much* but it was the game that capped off the series against Khan. I think Hoejja has earned a place on the ranking, although exactly where is a tough question.
Crazy-Hydra - I'm not sold on his ZvT even though he is 1-1 against S-class players, partly because his win over Light was on Outlier in a retarded game that he could not possibly lose, but he looks quite solid vs Z and P both. Still, I think the 7 game win streak he wracked up has left him a bit over rated. I though that Grape did a nice job exposing some holes in Crazy-Hydra's play. CBNC at the least, but an actual ranking is questionable.
Soo - Comparable to Crazy-Hydra in terms of having a mammoth win streak that on paper makes him a solid pick, but again I'm just not fully seeing it, this time even less so. Soo is a player whose ZvP seems to produce wicked results whenever Hydra bursts are in vogue and pathetic results when the Protoss timing adjusts to make the old Hydra burst timing irrelevant. Like Crazy-Hydra, he also has a retarded win over Light, in which he won with... a Hydra bust! Ironically they could face each other in the Finals. I don't really think there's a rivalry between Fanta/Bisu and Flash/Stats even though some comparisons can certainly be made, but I think that in a twisted sort of way there is definitely a Soo vs Crazy-Hydra rivalry going on right now.
Stats - His recent record... hasn't been that good. By my count, he's 5-6 since the start of R3, so why am I even mentioning him? Because I think his play has been really good, on the whole. Well, this may be a tough sell, but I'd easily pick Stats as the better player over someone like Crazy-Hydra or Soo who has a lot more momentum at the moment. Mainly I just think that Stats has been placed in a harder role and looked better. Not saying he should be ranked, but a good win over a stronger SKT player (assuming the ranking waits) like Fantasy or Bisu would make you almost HAVE to rank him. I'm seeing in Stats right now something kind of like what I saw in Zero around Dec 2010, back when he was known as being good, but hadn't broken out yet. Stats has obviously received a lot more attention and hype than Zero did prior to breaking out, and I think that's starting to play against him since fans are now falling into either the "Stats <3" camp or the "bleh, over rated" camp. If Stats ever has his time, I think it will be now.
(speaking of Zero, he seems to be starting to find his footing again, although I'm not going to give him any more mention than that)
Bisu - Only 2-2 since the last ranking, so a bit hard to judge. SKT has this tendency NOT to have Fanta and Bisu both at the front of their line-up. Sometimes that bites them in the ass, but in R3 it seems to have worked just fine. On the whole I'm a little underwhelmed by Bisu this season and if the ranking comes out before the GF I'd be inclined to say to leave him off.
Dear - The player everyone seems to have picked as the next bonjwa. Breaking Flash's win streak was a big deal, but TBH I found Horang2's win more meaningful and Dear simply does not have any other accomplishment to his name. As I've said before, I wouldn't throw a tantrum if he made it on, but I kind of hope he is left with CBNC or Shout Out at most. Before we talk about Dear on the ranking we should talk about Horang2 on the ranking. But I don't really think Horang2 deserves to be ranked right now either.
Calm - On paper calm is a ZvP sniper right now, but I think that compared to someone like Soo or Crazy-Hydra he has more depth. All season long he has faced a respectable line-up and gone unnoticed, mainly because he lacks any of the really high profile wins or win streaks other players have achieved, but that's probably not fair. With Bogus and Last both fading, I'm not sure even Flash could have picked up the slack for STX.
Best - I saved the Best for last. Ahahahaha... no, really. Best is 5-1 since the last ranking, with his only loss to Flash doing an all-in. Best is really the player who took SKT to the #1 spot, and for that I think he deserves to be ranked.
Tentatively,
7. Best 8. Hoejja 9. Crazy-Hydra 10. Stats
One of the few times I'll have to disagree with PR bonjwa Mortality.
1-5: I completely agree.
Now 6... no disrespect to Jaedong, one of my favorite players, but winning vs Soulkey and losing vs Leta (and winning over a bunch of scrubs) in the past 2 months does not, a number 6 ranking make. In the normal course of things, maybe. If T8 still had a playoff chance and were playing serious opponents, sure. But in the context of things, it was simply too little too late. Jaedong mostly carried T8 this season but he's been extremely mediocre vs really good players, especially Terran. I mean, in his game vs Leta... (at around 9:05 of the VOD), 6 Hydras and 2 lings + Overlord get owned by 3 vultures, one nearly dead at that... I'm not sure that's an impressive show of skill. Not even on Leta's part. JD just walking into those mines like he was ggaemo. He wasn't even expanding behind that or anything. And then the mutas vs goliaths.
Best... ok I like SKT and all that, but a 4 win streak following a 4 loss streak (with a 1-2 in between, admittedly one game was vs Flash so let's make that a 1-1 in between)? His games were not amazingly good. He was not the underdog in any of them, and didn't play in a dominating manner. Same issue I have with Jaedong - he wins when expected to win, and loses quite a bit, sometimes in dramatic fashion. Now you might say I'm going too far back in the past, taking in his games during January. However, that's still vital info to gauge the current strength of the player considering the small sample size of games available. What was his potential during then? Did he show streaks of brilliance? Did it show recently? In small doses or in several games? Which is why I also disagree with his ranking.
Now Hoejja. We're getting somewhere. Sure, he's gotten more chances than the others to play because of the playoffs, but unlike Wooki, he's taken full advantage of it. I mean, how much better do you have to play to get recognized? Amazing win vs Leta with monster plagues: Check. Outmaneuvering Hydra in the latter's best matchup: Check. Outmicroing Effort, current CJ ace player: Check. Destroying Roro and Shine, Khan's main zerg line with solid ZvZ play. Roro is not a pushover - he's SOLID. Shine is... Shine. Which means he's pretty good, and a fucking cheeser, but he wins and has really good micro. The case for Hoejja is ROCK solid. It's based on both results and actual skill shown during the games. It would be a travesty not to place him right after the top 5. He might not have the historical consistency of everyone else, but he is the definition of CLUTCH (still remember last season's finals).
Next up... how about Horang2? Results say he's pretty mediocre, but they were wins against Flash (in a pretty straight up game I might add!), Kal, and Stats. He's usually the player in CJ who faces enemy aces and does really well. Even in his losses he had a chance to win. I think he's shown enough to warrant a spot in the top 10, being the only CJ player aside from Leta not to choke (hey, he was tasked to fight Flash during the playoffs - going 1-1 is not choking).
Why no love for Action? The kid, while playing pretty badly for 80% of the season, stepped up his game heading into the playoffs. Double kill on Effort (after losing to him during the season). Taking out Sea, Turn, and Snow, some of the more aggressive players in BW with really good early/mid game defense. Sure he lost to Shine, and his vP looks shaky, but he's definitely shown the potential KT saw in him when they drafted him. Now you might say that I'm being a hypocrite because I'm not taking the context into account (i.e. Action's subpar season). But if you look at the specific context of the games he won, and won well, he was being clutch and stepping up his game even more. In that span of time, he shored up on his weakness and because really solid for KT. ZvZ? That's an early-game matchup! And yet Action did quite well there. It speaks much of his continued improvement.
So my ranking 6-10 is:
6. Hoejja 7. Horang2 8. Jaedong 9. Action 10. Stats (I agree with what you say about Stats, except that Hoejja has shown even better play recently).
ZvT stats on neo outlier are now 4-0. I know Leta's game was only one worth watching but still Hoejja had significant map advantage. Not sending terrans on this map confirms that fact (22games, 24Z, 16P, 4T). CJ zergs form in playoff was just ugly. Even in Hydra vs Wooki game I had impression that Hydra won it only because his advantage was too big to screw this up that much. That makes Hoejja wins against Effort and Hydra less spectacular. By saying that you are biased by playoff matches I dont say you shouldnt count them in PR. But these are only matches in last two weeks so you overrate them.
On March 26 2012 12:02 dobrzeee wrote: ZvT stats on neo outlier are now 4-0. I know Leta's game was only one worth watching but still Hoejja had significant map advantage. Not sending terrans on this map confirms that fact (22games, 24Z, 16P, 4T). CJ zergs form in playoff was just ugly. Even in Hydra vs Wooki game I had impression that Hydra won it only because his advantage was too big to screw this up that much. That makes Hoejja wins against Effort and Hydra less spectacular. By saying that you are biased by playoff matches I dont say you shouldnt count them in PR. But these are only matches in last two weeks so you overrate them.
Yeah but then we go too far back into the past, reaching for some measure of skill that doesn't really exist for the rest of the BW players. We can't maintain the status quo for their sake just because they didn't reach the playoffs.
The Leta game, even taking it into context, was a really good display of skill. Ok let's count map-imbalance. Still, Leta's skill is supposed to be >>>>>>>>>>> than Hoejja's. Leta is CJ's Terran ace (and is their best player right now). Leta has been spectacular all season long. Hoejja was looking for his form the whole season long. He found it, played really well, and as a result, defeated Leta in an amazing game. He also should get credit vs Effort and Hydra because even assuming you're correct, that the CJ zergs' play in the playoffs were ugly, it does not detract from Hoejja's show of skill, both mechanical in terms of his micro, and mental in terms of being clutch and making the right decisions.
I don't think "opponent sucks" is a very powerful argument. It could be, if the player who won equally sucked or didn't dominate as expected (like in Jaedong's case) or nearly threw away the games. But that's not the case here. Hoejja played really well. And in the absence of other players having the opportunity to showcase their skill, that's the ranking you have to make. Tough decisions all around. And no "benefit of the doubt" available, even to players like Bisu and Jaedong, because of their inconsistent play in both wins and losses (Bisu win over FBH was pretty ugly).
On March 26 2012 11:59 Caladbolg wrote: Best... ok I like SKT and all that, but a 4 win streak following a 4 loss streak (with a 1-2 in between, admittedly one game was vs Flash so let's make that a 1-1 in between)? His games were not amazingly good. He was not the underdog in any of them, and didn't play in a dominating manner. Same issue I have with Jaedong - he wins when expected to win, and loses quite a bit, sometimes in dramatic fashion. Now you might say I'm going too far back in the past, taking in his games during January. However, that's still vital info to gauge the current strength of the player considering the small sample size of games available. What was his potential during then? Did he show streaks of brilliance? Did it show recently? In small doses or in several games? Which is why I also disagree with his ranking.
Best wasn't an underdog in any of his games? What?
He's played every single top performing zerg there was this season and beaten them all. Jaedong, Soulkey, CH, Effort, Hydra. None of those are pushover opponents. And we're talking about a guy whose vZ used to be somewhat of a laughingstock. His game against Effort was one of the best PvZs played this season. Overall, his record is 12-7 (5-1 since last PR), which is the 2nd best Protoss record this season. Better than both Stats and Bisu.
I'm not saying he absolutely deserves a PR spot, but you're definitely undermining his achievements and progress this season. I've honestly been really impressed and proud of him.
Unless I'm mistaken, next weekend is the offline prelims for OSL and April 7 is the PL GF. I'm actually starting to think it would be better for the ranking to happen before next weekend, since this will mean that all players will get a chance to play between this upcoming ranking and the ranking that follows. Otherwise you have plenty of games for this rank, but the next rank will suffer from having ONLY the actual OSL tournament unless we wait all the way until... Late May???!!!
I'm going to assume the ranking will still only happen AFTER the GF, but now that OSL is on, I just don't think that's necessary.
Currently, my top 6 remain the same:
1. Flash - in spite of dropping 3 games to Protoss, he is looking ridiculously scary. His invincibility aura has been broken, but he's still the best Starcraft player in the world. 2. Fantasy - just don't bother arguing 3. Stork - since I last wrote he went 2-1, dropping a game against Stats due to a combination of BO disadvantage and a tactical mistake (the pylon he placed to disrupt Stats's movements ended up disrupting his own), but he promptly earned revenge in the rematch. He's looking very well rounded, but just not quite on the level of either guy ahead of him. 4. Leta - has gone 1-2 since I last wrote. His loss to Hoejja dropped him from #3 TvZ by ELO to #4 (behind Flash, Light and Fantasy), but he still looks stunning there, with recent wins over SK and JD and an impressive win rate. I'm a biiiiiit concerned by his TvP. In his first match against Stats he was completely out-classed. His harassment was excellent, but Stats had a perfect defense to counter it and so the game boiled down to timing, where Stats was light years ahead, from the early goon harass to the main push (omfg the storms!), where I personally think Leta botched the timing by moving too soon. But in the rematch, OMG THE MINES!!! What it boils down to is that Leta is a bit too dependent on his harassment and needs to beef up his TvP fundamentals. 5. Soulkey - I'm not going to go through the SK vs Jaedong argument again, except to say that I think Soulkey is more well-rounded at the moment and more consistent. 6. Jaedong - When he brings it he looks awesome, but when he doesn't bring it... well, we've seen a few definite fail moments out of him this season. Jaedong is somewhat hurt by the fact that he simply hasn't brought it against Terran this season, simply getting rolled by competent TvZ play. Netizens who give JD the benefit of the doubt and point out (correctly) that the sample is only 5 games don't seem to remember how long ago last season was. Usually I'm telling people not to think too short term, but when last season was 8 months ago I just can't consider any of that data as valid, except for considering trends, which is not what's going on.
After that the murkiness sets in. Candidates I think deserve attention:
Hoejja - The hero of the playoffs. Who would have though that Hoejja's role would be even more critical than Flash's to getting KT to the GF? Check it out: Hydra isn't doing all that great this season, but eliminating him on Outlier where he is 6-3 (counting this game) is a big deal. Also taking Effort AND Leta out of CJ's line-up?! And then beating Shine might not mean *too much* but it was the game that capped off the series against Khan. I think Hoejja has earned a place on the ranking, although exactly where is a tough question.
Crazy-Hydra - I'm not sold on his ZvT even though he is 1-1 against S-class players, partly because his win over Light was on Outlier in a retarded game that he could not possibly lose, but he looks quite solid vs Z and P both. Still, I think the 7 game win streak he wracked up has left him a bit over rated. I though that Grape did a nice job exposing some holes in Crazy-Hydra's play. CBNC at the least, but an actual ranking is questionable.
Soo - Comparable to Crazy-Hydra in terms of having a mammoth win streak that on paper makes him a solid pick, but again I'm just not fully seeing it, this time even less so. Soo is a player whose ZvP seems to produce wicked results whenever Hydra bursts are in vogue and pathetic results when the Protoss timing adjusts to make the old Hydra burst timing irrelevant. Like Crazy-Hydra, he also has a retarded win over Light, in which he won with... a Hydra bust! Ironically they could face each other in the Finals. I don't really think there's a rivalry between Fanta/Bisu and Flash/Stats even though some comparisons can certainly be made, but I think that in a twisted sort of way there is definitely a Soo vs Crazy-Hydra rivalry going on right now.
Stats - His recent record... hasn't been that good. By my count, he's 5-6 since the start of R3, so why am I even mentioning him? Because I think his play has been really good, on the whole. Well, this may be a tough sell, but I'd easily pick Stats as the better player over someone like Crazy-Hydra or Soo who has a lot more momentum at the moment. Mainly I just think that Stats has been placed in a harder role and looked better. Not saying he should be ranked, but a good win over a stronger SKT player (assuming the ranking waits) like Fantasy or Bisu would make you almost HAVE to rank him. I'm seeing in Stats right now something kind of like what I saw in Zero around Dec 2010, back when he was known as being good, but hadn't broken out yet. Stats has obviously received a lot more attention and hype than Zero did prior to breaking out, and I think that's starting to play against him since fans are now falling into either the "Stats <3" camp or the "bleh, over rated" camp. If Stats ever has his time, I think it will be now.
(speaking of Zero, he seems to be starting to find his footing again, although I'm not going to give him any more mention than that)
Bisu - Only 2-2 since the last ranking, so a bit hard to judge. SKT has this tendency NOT to have Fanta and Bisu both at the front of their line-up. Sometimes that bites them in the ass, but in R3 it seems to have worked just fine. On the whole I'm a little underwhelmed by Bisu this season and if the ranking comes out before the GF I'd be inclined to say to leave him off.
Dear - The player everyone seems to have picked as the next bonjwa. Breaking Flash's win streak was a big deal, but TBH I found Horang2's win more meaningful and Dear simply does not have any other accomplishment to his name. As I've said before, I wouldn't throw a tantrum if he made it on, but I kind of hope he is left with CBNC or Shout Out at most. Before we talk about Dear on the ranking we should talk about Horang2 on the ranking. But I don't really think Horang2 deserves to be ranked right now either.
Calm - On paper calm is a ZvP sniper right now, but I think that compared to someone like Soo or Crazy-Hydra he has more depth. All season long he has faced a respectable line-up and gone unnoticed, mainly because he lacks any of the really high profile wins or win streaks other players have achieved, but that's probably not fair. With Bogus and Last both fading, I'm not sure even Flash could have picked up the slack for STX.
Best - I saved the Best for last. Ahahahaha... no, really. Best is 5-1 since the last ranking, with his only loss to Flash doing an all-in. Best is really the player who took SKT to the #1 spot, and for that I think he deserves to be ranked.
Tentatively,
7. Best 8. Hoejja 9. Crazy-Hydra 10. Stats
One of the few times I'll have to disagree with PR bonjwa Mortality.
1-5: I completely agree.
Now 6... no disrespect to Jaedong, one of my favorite players, but winning vs Soulkey and losing vs Leta (and winning over a bunch of scrubs) in the past 2 months does not, a number 6 ranking make. In the normal course of things, maybe. If T8 still had a playoff chance and were playing serious opponents, sure. But in the context of things, it was simply too little too late. Jaedong mostly carried T8 this season but he's been extremely mediocre vs really good players, especially Terran. I mean, in his game vs Leta... (at around 9:05 of the VOD), 6 Hydras and 2 lings + Overlord get owned by 3 vultures, one nearly dead at that... I'm not sure that's an impressive show of skill. Not even on Leta's part. JD just walking into those mines like he was ggaemo. He wasn't even expanding behind that or anything. And then the mutas vs goliaths.
Best... ok I like SKT and all that, but a 4 win streak following a 4 loss streak (with a 1-2 in between, admittedly one game was vs Flash so let's make that a 1-1 in between)? His games were not amazingly good. He was not the underdog in any of them, and didn't play in a dominating manner. Same issue I have with Jaedong - he wins when expected to win, and loses quite a bit, sometimes in dramatic fashion. Now you might say I'm going too far back in the past, taking in his games during January. However, that's still vital info to gauge the current strength of the player considering the small sample size of games available. What was his potential during then? Did he show streaks of brilliance? Did it show recently? In small doses or in several games? Which is why I also disagree with his ranking.
Now Hoejja. We're getting somewhere. Sure, he's gotten more chances than the others to play because of the playoffs, but unlike Wooki, he's taken full advantage of it. I mean, how much better do you have to play to get recognized? Amazing win vs Leta with monster plagues: Check. Outmaneuvering Hydra in the latter's best matchup: Check. Outmicroing Effort, current CJ ace player: Check. Destroying Roro and Shine, Khan's main zerg line with solid ZvZ play. Roro is not a pushover - he's SOLID. Shine is... Shine. Which means he's pretty good, and a fucking cheeser, but he wins and has really good micro. The case for Hoejja is ROCK solid. It's based on both results and actual skill shown during the games. It would be a travesty not to place him right after the top 5. He might not have the historical consistency of everyone else, but he is the definition of CLUTCH (still remember last season's finals).
Next up... how about Horang2? Results say he's pretty mediocre, but they were wins against Flash (in a pretty straight up game I might add!), Kal, and Stats. He's usually the player in CJ who faces enemy aces and does really well. Even in his losses he had a chance to win. I think he's shown enough to warrant a spot in the top 10, being the only CJ player aside from Leta not to choke (hey, he was tasked to fight Flash during the playoffs - going 1-1 is not choking).
Why no love for Action? The kid, while playing pretty badly for 80% of the season, stepped up his game heading into the playoffs. Double kill on Effort (after losing to him during the season). Taking out Sea, Turn, and Snow, some of the more aggressive players in BW with really good early/mid game defense. Sure he lost to Shine, and his vP looks shaky, but he's definitely shown the potential KT saw in him when they drafted him. Now you might say that I'm being a hypocrite because I'm not taking the context into account (i.e. Action's subpar season). But if you look at the specific context of the games he won, and won well, he was being clutch and stepping up his game even more. In that span of time, he shored up on his weakness and because really solid for KT. ZvZ? That's an early-game matchup! And yet Action did quite well there. It speaks much of his continued improvement.
So my ranking 6-10 is:
6. Hoejja 7. Horang2 8. Jaedong 9. Action 10. Stats (I agree with what you say about Stats, except that Hoejja has shown even better play recently).
CBNC:
Best Bisu (T_T) CH Canata (woohoo!)
People accuse me all the time of being stubborn and... worse things because I am not fond of poorly thought out opinions.
But it's this kind of post that you made that makes me rethink my opinion. Your points are very good, if a bit daring.
I'm still inclined to have JD as my #6 pick. I'm almost tempted to cave and say, "You're right," because yeah, I know what you're saying about him. A lot of his faults this season people try to justify with silly excuses, e.g. that the game against Flying actually shows how great he is that he could win in spite of such a huge mistake (actually, it shows how BAD Flying's unit mix was -- seriously, pure zeal/archon against a lurker based defense?!), or that the game against Canata was a build nobody has ever seen before and therefore could not be countered (didn't a certain ex-teammate of Canata *cough* Fantasy *cough* popularize this strategy 3 years ago? JD lost because he decided to face Canata's valks head on with his mutas before his scourge could get there WHILE Canata was marching his army to JD's 3rd base... extremely bad decision making). But at the same time, I have to realize that there have been some absolutely BRILLIANT moments from JD as well. His second game against Modesty just blew my mind. Modesty was just thoroughly out-classed. I'm concerned about the state of JD's ZvT and concerned that his decision making and mechanics are looking sloppy. Another example from that game against Flying was when Flying dropped JD's 5th base and we saw in FPview how JD was defending... and it looked awful. But right now his ZvZ is indisputably best in the world, his ZvP is probably top 3 with Soulkey and Calm, and even though his ZvT is no longer up to par, it's not something I'd take lightly. I really can't see him as anything other than the #2 overall Zerg threat.
With Jaedong, how "powerful" he is right now depends on which Jaedong shows up. Is it the Tyrant? Or is it the kid who got his head cut off by Rock all those years ago?
But, I like the daring to rank Horang2 and Action. In fact, yeah, Horang2 and Action, based on games played, maybe deserve it more than Best and Crazy-Hydra. Although, the same argument about coming off a loss streak that you criticize Best with could also be used to criticize either of those guys. But, in the same respect, if you look at who they played, then Action has faced a pretty brutal ZvP line-up, an almost as tough ZvZ line-up, and he's crushed a fairly weak ZvT line-up, so I think that says a lot about him as a player since he's come out of it 8-7 in total. And very important in all of this is that he's looked good. Horang2 is actually a bit tougher to sell since I think he's dropped a few he shouldn't have and a few of his wins I'd expect. Even Kal, that you mention, hasn't been so hot lately (okay, 4-3 PvP, but 6-9 overall with only 2 wins in his last 10 games). But I think what's important here is how he's look while playing and the role he's taking in CJ's line-up.
On March 26 2012 12:02 dobrzeee wrote: ZvT stats on neo outlier are now 4-0. I know Leta's game was only one worth watching but still Hoejja had significant map advantage. Not sending terrans on this map confirms that fact (22games, 24Z, 16P, 4T). CJ zergs form in playoff was just ugly. Even in Hydra vs Wooki game I had impression that Hydra won it only because his advantage was too big to screw this up that much. That makes Hoejja wins against Effort and Hydra less spectacular. By saying that you are biased by playoff matches I dont say you shouldnt count them in PR. But these are only matches in last two weeks so you overrate them.
Leta is 1-1 overall on Outlier counting both versions of the map, which aren't all that different. And yes, the map is bad for Terran, but it's not unplayable. It was Hoejja's outstanding defiler usage that cinched it.
And you're belittling his wins over Effort and Hydra. In his game against Effort he had a scouting advantage, performed an excellent tactic that left Effort trapped in his base and blind, and then took a calculated risk to strengthen his economy, that Effort didn't capitalize on because unlike us watching the game via commentators, Effort was forced to play blind. The game against Hydra was a very well-timed, well-coordinated attack. The greatest risk that you have to face in that kind of situation is that you don't want to get too impatient with your air based on having the early gas advantage, but because Hydra expanded he couldn't wait too long. His timing was correct and his scourge were more effective.
On March 26 2012 12:16 BisuDagger wrote: I think at this point if KT wins it all we just KT as a whole in the #1 spot for PR. And if SKT wins then all Fantasy of course.
On March 26 2012 11:59 Caladbolg wrote: Best... ok I like SKT and all that, but a 4 win streak following a 4 loss streak (with a 1-2 in between, admittedly one game was vs Flash so let's make that a 1-1 in between)? His games were not amazingly good. He was not the underdog in any of them, and didn't play in a dominating manner. Same issue I have with Jaedong - he wins when expected to win, and loses quite a bit, sometimes in dramatic fashion. Now you might say I'm going too far back in the past, taking in his games during January. However, that's still vital info to gauge the current strength of the player considering the small sample size of games available. What was his potential during then? Did he show streaks of brilliance? Did it show recently? In small doses or in several games? Which is why I also disagree with his ranking.
Best wasn't an underdog in any of his games? What?
He's played every single top performing zerg there was this season and beaten them all. Jaedong, Soulkey, CH, Effort, Hydra. None of those are pushover opponents. And we're talking about a guy whose vZ used to be somewhat of a laughingstock. His game against Effort was one of the best PvZs played this season. Overall, his record is 12-7 (5-1 since last PR), which is the 2nd best Protoss record this season. Better than both Stats and Bisu.
I'm not saying he absolutely deserves a PR spot, but you're definitely undermining his achievements and progress this season. I've honestly been really impressed and proud of him.
He's talking about R3 when he says that, not this season. Shy, Dear, Reality and Tyson aren't exactly the toughest opponents.
On March 26 2012 11:59 Caladbolg wrote: Best... ok I like SKT and all that, but a 4 win streak following a 4 loss streak (with a 1-2 in between, admittedly one game was vs Flash so let's make that a 1-1 in between)? His games were not amazingly good. He was not the underdog in any of them, and didn't play in a dominating manner. Same issue I have with Jaedong - he wins when expected to win, and loses quite a bit, sometimes in dramatic fashion. Now you might say I'm going too far back in the past, taking in his games during January. However, that's still vital info to gauge the current strength of the player considering the small sample size of games available. What was his potential during then? Did he show streaks of brilliance? Did it show recently? In small doses or in several games? Which is why I also disagree with his ranking.
Best wasn't an underdog in any of his games? What?
He's played every single top performing zerg there was this season and beaten them all. Jaedong, Soulkey, CH, Effort, Hydra. None of those are pushover opponents. And we're talking about a guy whose vZ used to be somewhat of a laughingstock. His game against Effort was one of the best PvZs played this season. Overall, his record is 12-7 (5-1 since last PR), which is the 2nd best Protoss record this season. Better than both Stats and Bisu.
I'm not saying he absolutely deserves a PR spot, but you're definitely undermining his achievements and progress this season. I've honestly been really impressed and proud of him.
Best's traditionally strong match up which is vT has not been anything spectacular this season, I agree that he was the underdog going into games vs top zergs, but he definitely wasn't the underdog going into games vs most of his non zerg opponents. He deserves alot of praise for his sudden improvements in vZ, if only he would regain his vT prowess (not to mention he displayed some great vP play too vs shy) then his PR spot wouldn't be disputed.
Best deserves 7th spot almost everyone agreed with that before playoffs. I dont see the reason why he would be lower than some hot players that came out of nowhere when he didnt get chance to play. And also if you want to place Hoejja in PR that much he should be lower than CH who didnt play that well in the playoffs and his play in regular season wasnt that spectacular even though his results look good, but he should be rewarded for being consistent.
On March 26 2012 11:59 Caladbolg wrote: Best... ok I like SKT and all that, but a 4 win streak following a 4 loss streak (with a 1-2 in between, admittedly one game was vs Flash so let's make that a 1-1 in between)? His games were not amazingly good. He was not the underdog in any of them, and didn't play in a dominating manner. Same issue I have with Jaedong - he wins when expected to win, and loses quite a bit, sometimes in dramatic fashion. Now you might say I'm going too far back in the past, taking in his games during January. However, that's still vital info to gauge the current strength of the player considering the small sample size of games available. What was his potential during then? Did he show streaks of brilliance? Did it show recently? In small doses or in several games? Which is why I also disagree with his ranking.
Best wasn't an underdog in any of his games? What?
He's played every single top performing zerg there was this season and beaten them all. Jaedong, Soulkey, CH, Effort, Hydra. None of those are pushover opponents. And we're talking about a guy whose vZ used to be somewhat of a laughingstock. His game against Effort was one of the best PvZs played this season. Overall, his record is 12-7 (5-1 since last PR), which is the 2nd best Protoss record this season. Better than both Stats and Bisu.
I'm not saying he absolutely deserves a PR spot, but you're definitely undermining his achievements and progress this season. I've honestly been really impressed and proud of him.
Wasn't undermining his achievements this season, which have been mind-blowing in terms of his PvZ. But the PR involves "recent" (especially given the limited amount of games right now) momentum, force, results, and an eclectic/indefinable mix of them all which somehow leads to a hierarchy of power. And his recent show of "power" has been quite flat these past few games.
On March 26 2012 11:59 Caladbolg wrote: Now 6... no disrespect to Jaedong, one of my favorite players, but winning vs Soulkey and losing vs Leta (and winning over a bunch of scrubs) in the past 2 months does not, a number 6 ranking make. In the normal course of things, maybe. If T8 still had a playoff chance and were playing serious opponents, sure. But in the context of things, it was simply too little too late. Jaedong mostly carried T8 this season but he's been extremely mediocre vs really good players, especially Terran. I mean, in his game vs Leta... (at around 9:05 of the VOD), 6 Hydras and 2 lings + Overlord get owned by 3 vultures, one nearly dead at that... I'm not sure that's an impressive show of skill. Not even on Leta's part. JD just walking into those mines like he was ggaemo. He wasn't even expanding behind that or anything. And then the mutas vs goliaths.
Are you sure you are not placing a bit too much emphasis on that Leta game? yeah that move was not a great show of skill. On the other hand, the first spider mine took 4 hydra hits before it exploded (high ground ftw..).
He is still 6-1 in this past 2 months, including a lot of cool games, the spore block against modesty was nothing short of amazing, the game against SK was an awesome comeback. Also, in every single ZvZ he had to fight back from a BO disadvantage (hell, I can't even remember when he had a BO win the last time). Saying all his opponents were just "scrubs" seems a bit unfair.
Also I don't think I want to live in a world where a 6-1 record doesn't even qualify you for top 6 in PR
On March 26 2012 11:59 Caladbolg wrote: Now 6... no disrespect to Jaedong, one of my favorite players, but winning vs Soulkey and losing vs Leta (and winning over a bunch of scrubs) in the past 2 months does not, a number 6 ranking make. In the normal course of things, maybe. If T8 still had a playoff chance and were playing serious opponents, sure. But in the context of things, it was simply too little too late. Jaedong mostly carried T8 this season but he's been extremely mediocre vs really good players, especially Terran. I mean, in his game vs Leta... (at around 9:05 of the VOD), 6 Hydras and 2 lings + Overlord get owned by 3 vultures, one nearly dead at that... I'm not sure that's an impressive show of skill. Not even on Leta's part. JD just walking into those mines like he was ggaemo. He wasn't even expanding behind that or anything. And then the mutas vs goliaths.
Are you sure you are not placing a bit too much emphasis on that Leta game? yeah that move was not a great show of skill. On the other hand, the first spider mine took 4 hydra hits before it exploded (high ground ftw..).
He is still 6-1 in this past 2 months, including a lot of cool games, the spore block against modesty was nothing short of amazing, the game against SK was an awesome comeback. Also, in every single ZvZ he had to fight back from a BO disadvantage (hell, I can't even remember when he had a BO win the last time). Saying all his opponents were just "scrubs" seems a bit unfair.
Also I don't think I want to live in a world where a 6-1 record doesn't even qualify you for top 6 in PR
I do wanna live in that world, seems like a world of plenty of Brood War to go around ^_^
But that is not this one, in this world a 6-1 record + being Jaedong should be enough to earn him the 6th spot, imho.
Leta may drop below Soulkey if Soulkey advances. Then again, Soulkey has an easy group, so maybe not. Stats was originally a candidate for a #10 spot, but now I think he needs to prove himself strongly against SKT before he has a chance. Best also needs to prove himself against KT, but not as strongly as Bisu or Best need to prove themselves.
On the flip side, Action now looks like a more solid candidate.
If Bisu doesn't whip out some really good stuff vs KT (such as beating Flash, good and clean), he can GTFO of the PR as far as I'm concerned. But he's still ELO #2 I guess, which counts for something.