|
I agree with your top 5, Mortality.
1. Flash
2. Fantasy
3. Bisu
4. Stats
5. Last
But Bogus? Why give him #6, because he is the 3rd best TvP player? His TvT is nothing. It went from being a joke in his first two games, to being notably below average in his loss about Iris. That's hardly an improvement in my view of his TvT matchup. Remember, I was ready to proclaim him #3 overall if he proved himself in TvT. He did no such thing - quite the opposite. No one on the current presumptive PR nominees has such a single bad matchup as Bogus does (although Last is unproven in TvZ).
I'd put:
6. Neo.g_Soulkey
7. Effort
I think the PR should just be these 7 guys, honestly. Because as much as Bogus' vT is a complete failure, everyone else makes big mistakes too.
Stork is waning in his PvP that he started the season so strong in. His game versus Fantasy started out ridiculously good (indeed, nearly perfect anti-Vulture control, against the freaking Vulture Terrorist). But there are several mistakes that cost him the game, and if he did not do one or two of them he may have taken it. He had High Templar sniped. He had almost no Stasis, thanks to some EMPs (one EMP that hit two Arbiters could have meant Stork would have taken a decisive battle). And at the very end he lost like 5-6 Zealots over mines pointlesslu, when every unit at that point was so precious. Ugh, I was raging this whole game not at Stork but at the fact that 3 Base Terran does not run out of units, and once the 4th is up theres no need to worry about economy ever. Fantasy played nearly perfect, but I still cannot fathom how Terran is statistically at a disadvantage in this matchup. It really makes no sense when they don't need to expand.
Baby has done nothing*, and deserves no place on the PR.
*Nice lift/land micro?
Best, a low spot, I guess. Yay for PvZ, wow, since when did Best ever want this matchup and nothing else? Terran gets 3rd base before you get 3rd base... so you decide to stay on 3 bases the whole game. Is this what the coaches teach to respond to 3 bases off 1 Fact?
8. Bogus
9. Stork
10. Best or Jaedong
Best is more of a one hit wonder than Bogus right now, so he should be ranked lower. I guess Bogus should be over Stork, but barely. I think Stork still has very good PvT (not his peak from years past of course), and his PvZ has gotten results. His PvP is unquestionably better than Bogus' TvT though. Likewise, Bogus' TvZ seems good, albeit mostly untested. And while I will say that Bogus' TvP is better than any one of Stork's matchups, I just cannot say that it fully compensates for TvT embarrassments. But he went 3-0 over good competition off of his strong TvP, and he should be rewarded for this.
Probably Best for #10, but Jaedong... is Jaedong! It just seems so wrong to remove him from the PR for the first time in... many years (3? 4?).
Hopefully Stork plays in the remaining 4 (yes 4) games for Khan in the next two weeks and goes at least 3-1 so he can prove he deserves a spot again. Also with this plethora of Khan games to come, JangBi could easily steal a low spot (and theoretically so could Turn).
And I really want Bogus to do well too, so I hope he gets a couple victories in his final 3 games for the round. And Last could vary wildly as well.
SKT1 only has 1 more game left, but Fantasy is #2 no matter what, imo. Bisu is not quite safe at #3 yet. Stats still has two games to prove himself and in conjunction with a Bisu loss he could get #3 depending on how both look.
|
i think we need to see how jaedong does vs khan before deciding the PR this month. if he wins his match then he will deserve at least #10.
if only last and bogus could fuse together. it'd some sort of super terran that not even flash could compete with!
|
My tiers weren't organized in an exact order. Only 1 and 2 are fixed.
I'm not sure I'd be so brutal on Bogus. First of all, "third best TvP" doesn't accurately sum up the fact that I would lay money down on Bogus over ANY Protoss in the world in a bo5. Which means that he also has one of the strongest match-ups of anybody on the ranking. And while, yes, his TvT is looking defective, it's not exactly Casy TvP level defective, and it's not like he has a history of failure in that match-up.
Jaedong's historical place on the PR doesn't mean he should be given a free pass. Honestly, he's been GETTING the free pass for almost the past year. Last month I kept pointing things out like "Jd's loss to Snow was really more Snow's win" and highlighting Snow's strong points, but the honest truth is that JD keeps making little mistakes that pile on, and if you watched his game against Flying... pay close attention to his FPview and tell me with a straight face that you'd still put JD on this rank if you knew nothing about him prior to the start of this season.
|
Re: Ideas
I don't recall if Flamewheel has indicated so, but I assume it'll be a PR based on the whole round, and not the month. As of the end of January, SKT1 has played 6 games since the last PR and Khan has only played 3. Without an OSL to further gauge players, it's not really a good idea to judge players with such wild games played disparity, imo. So if it is done this way, all players including Jaedong have chances to change our opinions of them.
Re: Mortality
Yeah, Bogus is a tough one to rank. 'Nuff said. 
I agree Jaedong shouldn't get a free pass, but the other #10 possibilities such as Best, Jangbi, and Baby still have to prove they are better than him, and all three have been iffy recently. We shall certainly see!
The last time Jaedong was not on the PR was July 2007. That was so long ago, that Savior was #5 that month. Yowza!
|
i like baby a lot more than bogus, but despite the season record, bogus's play has definitely looked stronger. people who quote 5-4 have to understand that that includes two absolutely insane losses, one against soulkey and one against stats. if he had won both of those games i would say he should be #2 or #3 on PR. i honestly think he should be ranked above last
i don't know what to do with jaedong and baby right now. T8 are actually starting to win but it's not because those two are playing brilliantly.
i might even say
1. Flash
2. Fantasy
3. Bisu
4. Bogus
5. Stats
6. Last
7. Soulkey
8. Effort
9. Stork
10. Kal
|
Bogus at #4 is way too high. His TvT is not solid enough to allow him to be in the upper half of the ranking right now, not when players like Stats are looking more well-rounded.
Kal for #10 is an interesting choice that I briefly considered. Had he played a little better vs Last I would have been inclined to place him in Tier 3.
|
|
|
51328 Posts
there's no nice way of putting it out there except, jaedong sucks now.
whenever i watch him play, it feels like watching savior post 3.3, uninspiring and without the passion he once had.
|
On February 02 2012 02:44 GTR wrote:
there's no nice way of putting it out there except, jaedong sucks now.
whenever i watch him play, it feels like watching savior post 3.3, uninspiring and without the passion he once had.
I'm thinking it's more he literally has no practice partners. There's only 8 dudes on the team and practicing every matchup successfully is probably a crapshoot. This goes for the entirety of team 8.
|
On January 17 2012 18:52 bgx wrote:
Jaedong mistakes were far worse than Bisu's. Frankly i wouldnt even put him in top10, effort would be better. JD is only okaish in zvz and thats all.
Don't forget how volatile this game really is. The difference between victory and defeat can be a matter of placing a sunken few seconds late or having your bunker placing slightly off. Fact is, Jaedong dominated last year on ZvT and a couple of losses from well-executed timing attacks is quite not enough to prove anything. He is 1-2 on the matchup this year and the only victory was pretty convincing.
Now that he might have figured how to not die to Protoss mid-game pressure, I think his worst matchup is actually ZvZ . That 'constipated' game tells how far ahead he was in the game, not losing straight up while lacking such a huge force in the field for a considerably long time.
|
Jaedong is lacking practice partner and he is having a lot of pressure. He was dominating every terran a couple of months ago, he WILL be back in form soon enough.
|
You are counting some games from Round 1. January 1st games were the final games of Round 1 and Flamewheel took them into account for the most recent PR. Round 2 ends of February 11th, so I expect Flamewheel to put out the new PR within days of that date, but he has yet to indicate his plans.
|
I don't think there's much of an excuse for Jaedong. He's not being bad mechanically or look out of practice or getting blindsided by spectacular strategies. Throughout this season he has played some overall spotty BW.
|
On February 02 2012 08:02 baubo wrote:
I don't think there's much of an excuse for Jaedong. He's not being bad mechanically or look out of practice or getting blindsided by spectacular strategies. Throughout this season he has played some overall spotty BW.
well all we can hope for is to have a bisu-esque revival
|
On February 02 2012 06:02 Ubersturmfuhrer wrote:
Don't forget how volatile this game really is. The difference between victory and defeat can be a matter of placing a sunken few seconds late or having your bunker placing slightly off. Fact is, Jaedong dominated last year on ZvT and a couple of losses from well-executed timing attacks is quite not enough to prove anything. He is 1-2 on the matchup this year and the only victory was pretty convincing.
No it wasn't. I'm really sick of people pretending that Jaedong's game against Mind was good. Please explain what aspect of Jaedong's play in that game you found "convincing."
|
Question, has Fantasy ever been #1? It seems like he's always been just a bit below the top (flash) tier 
|
United States7639 Posts
On February 02 2012 08:37 Flameberger wrote:Question, has Fantasy ever been #1? It seems like he's always been just a bit below the top (flash) tier
No, he hasnt :/
Even the month where he won the OSL, he couldn't make it to #1 because his PL/WL record wasn't all that great and he was overshadowed by Flash.
|
On February 02 2012 08:39 Kiett wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 08:37 Flameberger wrote:Question, has Fantasy ever been #1? It seems like he's always been just a bit below the top (flash) tier No, he hasnt :/ Even the month where he won the OSL, he couldn't make it to #1 because his PL/WL record wasn't all that great and he was overshadowed by Flash.
Blast, I've been a fan since those proleague finals against Jaedong, I'm sure he'll make it eventually...
|
On February 02 2012 08:20 gngfn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 06:02 Ubersturmfuhrer wrote:
Don't forget how volatile this game really is. The difference between victory and defeat can be a matter of placing a sunken few seconds late or having your bunker placing slightly off. Fact is, Jaedong dominated last year on ZvT and a couple of losses from well-executed timing attacks is quite not enough to prove anything. He is 1-2 on the matchup this year and the only victory was pretty convincing. No it wasn't. I'm really sick of people pretending that Jaedong's game against Mind was good. Please explain what aspect of Jaedong's play in that game you found "convincing."
I would say his defeat of Mind was quite solid; (although on the other hand Mind clearly didn't have a backup plan when the valks went down). Losing to Flash? Not a problem. Getting wrecked, absolutely destroyed, by Canata? That's embarrassing. Jaedong's simply not looking good right now: I would take any top Terran and most of the strong PvZers (Movie, Stork, Bisu, maybe Snow and Stats) over him in a Bo5. ZvZ is a little trickier - I suspect he'd still win a Bo5 against anybody except maybe EffOrt and Hydra, but I wouldn't count on him winning [random Proleague game] the way we used to (though he's only lost there to EffOrt).
Some of it's the reduced schedule: the worst player he's faced this year is M18M, who was a decent prospect for KHAN before going to ACE. But he's got that bad loss to Canata, and he "should have" beaten Snow, and he looked helpless against BeSt... I dunno, I just find it hard to defend his play recently.
|
On February 02 2012 06:02 Ubersturmfuhrer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 18:52 bgx wrote:
Jaedong mistakes were far worse than Bisu's. Frankly i wouldnt even put him in top10, effort would be better. JD is only okaish in zvz and thats all. Don't forget how volatile this game really is. The difference between victory and defeat can be a matter of placing a sunken few seconds late or having your bunker placing slightly off. Fact is, Jaedong dominated last year on ZvT and a couple of losses from well-executed timing attacks is quite not enough to prove anything. He is 1-2 on the matchup this year and the only victory was pretty convincing. Now that he might have figured how to not die to Protoss mid-game pressure, I think his worst matchup is actually ZvZ . That 'constipated' game tells how far ahead he was in the game, not losing straight up while lacking such a huge force in the field for a considerably long time.
Oh come on!
First of all, JD's ZvZ is probably his best right now. I don't just say that from the statistics, but from watching the games. His games against Roro and Modesty *almost* had me thinking of JvZ and his game against Effort was a solid build order loss where I actually thought JD's play was slightly better, but not quite enough to make up for the build.
JD's ZvT admittedly doesn't draw from the best sample since his losses vs Canata and Flash were on ZvT graveyard Ground Zero and his victory over Mind was on Outlier, which is a horrible, horrible map for Terran, which is why Terran is almost never sent out on it.
And regarding the game against Flying, the only reason JD won is that Flying played absolutely terribly. Zero micro on his corsairs (how many times did we see 2 scourge without support pick off a corsair in the middle of a group of 8? that should NEVER happen), trying to face ling/lurk with pure zeal/archon. Uhm, hello? Seriously, watch JD's FPview, in particular at the part where JD is trying to defend his 5th base. That game was an ugly, ugly scrapfest.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
