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On October 14 2011 12:12 GGzerG wrote:
Dude I am not saying 4Gate vs 1rax FE isn't viable, i'm saying its as far off as standard as you can possibly get. I promise I don't think it ISN'T Viable, I Cheese all the time in every matchup so trust me I know, I have done many a 2gate into proxy 2gate PvP but Never a 4gate vs 1rax FE....I mean it just doesn't seem to have much of a follow up planobviously, if he blocks off somehow some way, then you just auto lose.
A common problem with most all-ins
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On October 14 2011 11:59 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 11:38 GGzerG wrote:On October 14 2011 11:10 Kiante wrote:On October 14 2011 09:49 GGzerG wrote:On October 14 2011 06:56 Kiante wrote:
a good macro player will block your silly cheese and you'll get stalled at some point.
Would be good to see the account you're "going up the ladder" on.
But, do you really think you'll improve cheesing? You basically toss a coin and pray they dont scout/are prepared for whatever you're doing On October 14 2011 09:30 Kiante wrote:
thats not cheese. Thats just proper countering of your build order. go listen to the nony interview from TSL2 You just TOTALLY contradicted ALL of you're previous posts with this post, I hope you go back and read everything you wrote. Because after that, all of you're previous posts make literally NO sense. and also, 4gate zeal PvT? rofl please. not at all. 4 gate vs a 1 rax fe is a standard transition from a 1 gate core opening for protoss. Even if i dont kill the terran with it i'll kill a shit ton of scv's and expand behind it. sure i lose a few proxied gates, but honestly its only failed once and i still won the game. LOL? Says who? , 4gate is never standard in any matchup, in any situation, ESPECIALLY PvT, even if they 1rax FE it doesn't matter, you are better off just 2gate zeal into 2gate goon while expanding than doing some ridiculous 4gate vs 1rax FE........That is just .....I don't even have the word for it but it sure as hell isn't standard. What are you smoking Kiante? Share plz EDIT : The only time I could ever see where that would be sensationally viable is on BlueStorm if they DON'T wall off, and if they do u just lose, or in PvP if you are forced to 4gate for some strange reason (It can happen) Actually, PvT 4gate vs 1rax FE is very viable. I remember it was used in a Korean Pro-game before. Nony also used it vs Idra in TSL2. You really shouldn't be so condescending just because Kiante disagrees with sataNik considering sataNik himself wasn't even acting like this. I mean, I agree it's not the standard response, but it definitely works.
This. Kiante knows what he's talking about. If executed correctly the 4gate should stomp a 1rax FE.
I would know. I almost lost to Fanatacist but he mis-microed. 
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Australia7069 Posts
I'm saying I don't go into the game going, gonna 4 gate, I simply play for a macro game and do the allin if the situation forces me too. Also I never said I don't cheese, I said cheesing exclusively in a ladder doesn't help you improve.
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On October 14 2011 11:10 Kiante wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 09:49 GGzerG wrote:On October 14 2011 06:56 Kiante wrote:
a good macro player will block your silly cheese and you'll get stalled at some point.
Would be good to see the account you're "going up the ladder" on.
But, do you really think you'll improve cheesing? You basically toss a coin and pray they dont scout/are prepared for whatever you're doing On October 14 2011 09:30 Kiante wrote:
thats not cheese. Thats just proper countering of your build order. go listen to the nony interview from TSL2 You just TOTALLY contradicted ALL of you're previous posts with this post, I hope you go back and read everything you wrote. Because after that, all of you're previous posts make literally NO sense. and also, 4gate zeal PvT? rofl please. not at all. 4 gate vs a 1 rax fe is a standard transition from a 1 gate core opening for protoss. Even if i dont kill the terran with it i'll kill a shit ton of scv's and expand behind it. sure i lose a few proxied gates, but honestly its only failed once and i still won the game.
I strongly disagree, 4gate is not standard at all or we would see progamers doing it all the time. Even if you kill many scvs, the terran still has two ccs that can rebuild scvs twice as fast as you. You cant expand behind this build until your aggression is over, and you cut tons of probes while setting up and attacking. In nonys interview i remember he stated that it seemed good but he didnt see progamers doing it so maybe theyd already found a counter to it, and was hoping that idra had not had such experience already, so obviously he was not secure in any knowledge of his build being a flawless counter.
it seems you have found a variety of "cheese" to be effective for you, yet you view cheese in general to be contemptible. I agree with ggzerg that you are indeed contradicting yourself.
if cheese was not viable, then bw would transcend into an endless cycle of greed, which is not evident in the pro scene these days, so i think cheese is still viable. I see progamers dying to attacks at unexpected timings all the time.
also, welcome back satanik!
edit: in the time it took me to write this people have already added replies that make my post unnecessary. take it as you will
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On October 14 2011 11:48 swanized wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 09:39 mutantmagnet wrote:On September 28 2010 05:46 Ver wrote:SC mapped out? Few innovators/innovations? Are we watching the same games here? The late 2009/2010 season has been one of the most innovative years ever! There's a large amount of exploring left in many of these systems. For Terran alone (listing general systems, not the absurd amount of variations): TvZ- Safe 14cc on 2 player maps a dozen different variations of bio -> mech and vice versa with a lot more room for further exploration (this is huge!) Flexible Valkyrie first openings that can transition into many different possibilities A totally new approach vs 2 hatch muta with aggressive marine pushes (changes a lot) 7 Rax (and overlord snipes from it) 4 rax -> triple port wraith 2 rax acad allins 3rd denial vs 3 hatch muta (very unexplored and complex) 2 base allin vs crazy zerg (3 hatch muta to ultra) Revolutionary lategame defense based off of aggressive vessel raids, covering infantry, and massed tanks (probably the biggest change in years along with bio-mech transitions) 12pool Lair with a very different and expansive early/midgame Improvements on overall mech play (several new midgame options) Heavy and consistent Vulture/Valkyrie!? (totally unexplored) TvP- Many different 3 base timings Many variations in the 2 fact after cc system both from siege expand and from FD 12 Nexus variations and emphasis 1 fact mine double expand in response to 12 Nexus New midgame Carrier transition ideas both before and after arbiters Rax Expand!! (a huge system with tons more exploration but right now there are many variations already) + Show Spoiler [Some specific games] +As long as the pro scene stays alive in courts BW is fine. SC2 is just new (and getting many temporary tournies/players because of this) and people need a break from BW. Give half a year/year and things should be looking better. Unless I missed I skimmed these links incorrectly I don't see this triple port wraith build this guy is talking about. Anyone know what match that was? I remember a game between classic and zero involving that (on Grand Line I THINK)
Light has used it before as well.
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Hello, I'm not sure who you are (as i've only recently began following Brood War), but seeing as how popular you are, you should start streaming. I'm sure many people, including myself, would enjoy watching, and you should be able to get featured relatively easily.
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Australia7069 Posts
On October 14 2011 12:56 FyRe_DragOn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 11:10 Kiante wrote:On October 14 2011 09:49 GGzerG wrote:On October 14 2011 06:56 Kiante wrote:
a good macro player will block your silly cheese and you'll get stalled at some point.
Would be good to see the account you're "going up the ladder" on.
But, do you really think you'll improve cheesing? You basically toss a coin and pray they dont scout/are prepared for whatever you're doing On October 14 2011 09:30 Kiante wrote:
thats not cheese. Thats just proper countering of your build order. go listen to the nony interview from TSL2 You just TOTALLY contradicted ALL of you're previous posts with this post, I hope you go back and read everything you wrote. Because after that, all of you're previous posts make literally NO sense. and also, 4gate zeal PvT? rofl please. not at all. 4 gate vs a 1 rax fe is a standard transition from a 1 gate core opening for protoss. Even if i dont kill the terran with it i'll kill a shit ton of scv's and expand behind it. sure i lose a few proxied gates, but honestly its only failed once and i still won the game. I strongly disagree, 4gate is not standard at all or we would see progamers doing it all the time. Even if you kill many scvs, the terran still has two ccs that can rebuild scvs twice as fast as you. You cant expand behind this build until your aggression is over, and you cut tons of probes while setting up and attacking. In nonys interview i remember he stated that it seemed good but he didnt see progamers doing it so maybe theyd already found a counter to it, and was hoping that idra had not had such experience already, so obviously he was not secure in any knowledge of his build being a flawless counter. it seems you have found a variety of "cheese" to be effective for you, yet you view cheese in general to be contemptible. I agree with ggzerg that you are indeed contradicting yourself. if cheese was not viable, then bw would transcend into an endless cycle of greed, which is not evident in the pro scene these days, so i think cheese is still viable. I see progamers dying to attacks at unexpected timings all the time. also, welcome back satanik! edit: in the time it took me to write this people have already added replies that make my post unnecessary. take it as you will
Its hardly cheese dude. its a reactionary allin. when a terran goes 1 rax FE they're essentially saying "play a macro game at a deficit or kill me now with proxy gates or 2 gate reaver". If i went into the game and did a 2 gate zealot into 4 gate, that is cheese. i go in with the intention of doing something that loses to a wall. In my games i go in with the intention of doing a 1 gate FE and on the off chance my opponent decides he wants to 1 rax FE i respond accordingly depending on how good he is (if he's bad i'll accept the deficit).
Just because progamers dont use it doesn't mean that its not effective at a C rank level that i play in(same with 12 nex).
If a terran bunker rushes me after i 12 nex, i dont consider that cheese, i consider it a reactionary allin(depending on the # of scv's pulled). same thing. standard fucking play
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If a terran bunker rushes me after i 12 nex, i dont consider that cheese, i consider it a reactionary allin(depending on the # of scv's pulled). same thing. standard fucking play
Sorry, I was unaware that "Reactionary All-in's" are the same as " Standard fucking play" , My bad.
Also we are debating the legitimacy of builds, why do you always get so angry and curse in you're posts Kiante? Sorry but that is really lame of you.
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Australia7069 Posts
yes. standard reactions to stimuli, ergo, standard fucking play.
cursing? sorry i didn't realise we were on the nursing home forum. i'll try and keep my language in check to better suit your delicate sensibilities
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A good macro player on defense always wins vs a good cheese.
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Australia7069 Posts
On October 14 2011 13:30 [DT] wrote:
A good macro player on defense always wins vs a good cheese.
thats just straight up untrue. go watch stork vs flash on bloody ridge where stork gas stole into 4 gate (note: this is cheese, you go in with the intention of doing the allin) and beat him easily. cant think of a better macro player than flash and he was being defensive because of the gas steal.
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lol Kiante you are always so rude for no reason, maybe it is due to the fact of how our games went, they were pretty much cheese fests, actually I take that back, they were reactionary all ins due to your 12 nexus build. I guess you still are full of angst there buddy. Take a breather.
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LOL if PROXY GATE IN A PvT ISN'T CHEESE I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS
Seriously, when you say proxy it's same thing that say cheese.
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you dont have to play a macro game at a deficit if the terran goes 1rax cc, there are macro counters as well.
imo the word cheese has lost its meaning through pointless debate about its exact definition.
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Australia7069 Posts
On October 14 2011 13:56 GGzerG wrote:
lol Kiante you are always so rude for no reason, maybe it is due to the fact of how our games went, they were pretty much cheese fests, actually I take that back, they were reactionary all ins due to your 12 nexus build. I guess you still are full of angst there buddy. Take a breather.
LOL. what part of reactionary dont you understand. blind countering is risky.
i'm not the one full of angst here, you're the one acting like a bitch
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Australia7069 Posts
On October 14 2011 14:01 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
you dont have to play a macro game at a deficit if the terran goes 1rax cc, there are macro counters as well.
imo the word cheese has lost its meaning through pointless debate about its exact definition.
what are they exactly? even if i cut goons and expand after 1 the terran is ahead of me. if i take a super fast third i'm insta-dead to a 4 fac and theres no realistic way to stop a terran scouting a super faster third, they'll scan it or slip a speed vulture out to see it in time.
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Canada11607 Posts
On October 14 2011 13:18 Kiante wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 12:56 FyRe_DragOn wrote:On October 14 2011 11:10 Kiante wrote:On October 14 2011 09:49 GGzerG wrote:On October 14 2011 06:56 Kiante wrote:
a good macro player will block your silly cheese and you'll get stalled at some point.
Would be good to see the account you're "going up the ladder" on.
But, do you really think you'll improve cheesing? You basically toss a coin and pray they dont scout/are prepared for whatever you're doing On October 14 2011 09:30 Kiante wrote:
thats not cheese. Thats just proper countering of your build order. go listen to the nony interview from TSL2 You just TOTALLY contradicted ALL of you're previous posts with this post, I hope you go back and read everything you wrote. Because after that, all of you're previous posts make literally NO sense. and also, 4gate zeal PvT? rofl please. not at all. 4 gate vs a 1 rax fe is a standard transition from a 1 gate core opening for protoss. Even if i dont kill the terran with it i'll kill a shit ton of scv's and expand behind it. sure i lose a few proxied gates, but honestly its only failed once and i still won the game. I strongly disagree, 4gate is not standard at all or we would see progamers doing it all the time. Even if you kill many scvs, the terran still has two ccs that can rebuild scvs twice as fast as you. You cant expand behind this build until your aggression is over, and you cut tons of probes while setting up and attacking. In nonys interview i remember he stated that it seemed good but he didnt see progamers doing it so maybe theyd already found a counter to it, and was hoping that idra had not had such experience already, so obviously he was not secure in any knowledge of his build being a flawless counter. it seems you have found a variety of "cheese" to be effective for you, yet you view cheese in general to be contemptible. I agree with ggzerg that you are indeed contradicting yourself. if cheese was not viable, then bw would transcend into an endless cycle of greed, which is not evident in the pro scene these days, so i think cheese is still viable. I see progamers dying to attacks at unexpected timings all the time. also, welcome back satanik! edit: in the time it took me to write this people have already added replies that make my post unnecessary. take it as you will Its hardly cheese dude. its a reactionary allin. when a terran goes 1 rax FE they're essentially saying "play a macro game at a deficit or kill me now with proxy gates or 2 gate reaver". If i went into the game and did a 2 gate zealot into 4 gate, that is cheese. i go in with the intention of doing something that loses to a wall. In my games i go in with the intention of doing a 1 gate FE and on the off chance my opponent decides he wants to 1 rax FE i respond accordingly depending on how good he is (if he's bad i'll accept the deficit). Just because progamers dont use it doesn't mean that its not effective at a C rank level that i play in(same with 12 nex). If a terran bunker rushes me after i 12 nex, i dont consider that cheese, i consider it a reactionary allin(depending on the # of scv's pulled). same thing. standard fucking play
Okaaay, but I still don't see the discernible difference between what satanik is saying and what you're saying. He's essentially saying that current iCCup builds are super greedy aka "play a macro game at a deficit or kill me now with proxy gates or 2 gate reaver". and so he has a reactionary build to exploit it. Just like your 4 gate proxy. Which is exactly what you're saying. So what exactly are you arguing? The only issue is that the word cheese get's thrown around too often.
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Australia7069 Posts
he's saying, go into the game with the explicit purpose to play a cheesy build to kill someone playing a standard macro game. my 3 proxy gates simply punish a terran doing what is essentially an economic cheese
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On October 14 2011 14:14 Kiante wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 13:56 GGzerG wrote:
lol Kiante you are always so rude for no reason, maybe it is due to the fact of how our games went, they were pretty much cheese fests, actually I take that back, they were reactionary all ins due to your 12 nexus build. I guess you still are full of angst there buddy. Take a breather. LOL. what part of reactionary dont you understand. blind countering is risky. i'm not the one full of angst here, you're the one acting like a bitch
Acting like a bitch? Kiante you always act so tough in the forums lol so pathetic, I hope that one day soon a "Grudge match" thread pops up in the BW Forums, and I would love it if it was Me vs You in the first grudge match, so I can make you eat every single word you say. Bassically if we play again I am going to make you my ________ . Fill in the blank Kiante, I think you are smart enough to figure out what word should be there. I would love to further our record, just let me know.
EDIT : Sorry flamewheel you are right.
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
Both of you calm down please ;;
Actually everybody calm down let's enjoy wine and cheese not whine and cheese or something?
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EPT
