Not many years from now, there was a brood war era where everything was interesting. Build orders had variance, many different strategies were used. It was all so nice and exciting, so much in contrast with the common "copy pro wannabe", "bo ignorant", sloppy macrofest, "me got skillz me can micro (muta,vulture, whatever)" user , which sadly are nowadays the majority of people. People who commonly get mad at you and name you "cheeser" when you exploit their huge bo weaknesses. They dont realize that behind the progaming play that they see and copy there was countless hours of practice vs whatever "cheese" you can think of which act as crash-test for the bo to be finely tuned and viable.
I am sure you all know me or heard of me because im playing this game for so many years now and i am known for my innovative and weird playstyle. I stopped after wcg2007 and i again started to play this summer. Im writing this because i found the current metagame lacking variety or, to put it more simply, just sad. I got little to no skill now, i play with ball mouse, my apm is low and yet im going up the ranks of iccup with ease. But its painfully boring. I would define it as too easy strategy-wise and demanding energy-wise.
So my advice to all is: be brave, be ballsy, take risks, be innovative, be a cheeser, its all roles you take. Besides, the better cheeser you are, the most cheeseproof your solid builds will be. Be sure to thank someone if he successfully cheeses you, because he strengthens your anticipation and defense skills. Dont be the egoistic type of player who wants every single game to be a macro vs macro game which "will define who is the better player".
a good macro player will block your silly cheese and you'll get stalled at some point. Would be good to see the account you're "going up the ladder" on. But, do you really think you'll improve cheesing? You basically toss a coin and pray they dont scout/are prepared for whatever you're doing
On October 14 2011 06:56 Kiante wrote: a good macro player will block your silly cheese and you'll get stalled at some point. Would be good to see the account you're "going up the ladder" on. But, do you really think you'll improve cheesing? You basically toss a coin and pray they dont scout/are prepared for whatever you're doing
My account is Star.sataNik. I wasnt talking about silly cheese which is indeed a coin flip. I was talking about quality strategic cheese which is finely tuned to strike at proper timing and grand an advantage. Then again, you are right, this thing im talking about shouldnt be called cheese. I only say it as cheese is because the vast majoirity of people regards it as cheese and im trying to speak their language.
On October 14 2011 07:08 ArvickHero wrote: It sounds like you're saying strategies are stagnant nowadays, which is definitely not the case.
Excuse me? 9/10 games pvz toss opens up with forge nexus. where are the numerous 1 base strats? or 2 gate exp? 4/5 games tvz terran goes 1 rax cc into mass m&m or mech. Where are the amazing 1 base plays: 1 rax acad fact pushes? 2 rax fact acad? or the 3 rax +1 sunk break timing? or the 2 rax m&m + dropship? or the vessel rush +1 m&m + tanks scoop? if u think these are invalid or weak strategies let me prove you wrong. almost every zerg goes for mutalisks tvz.
Hey didn't you play against Stork on stage at a WCG once?
I haven't played in quite a while, but I would say that its very difficult to come up with new builds and of course its just easier to copy an established build, but having a successful strategy that you develop for yourself is so rewarding.
On October 14 2011 07:18 Kiante wrote: So what you're saying is using unusual styles based on scouting information and assumption of your opponents build.
all i see is you trying to get an easy win rather than trying to perfect your own macro builds immune to silly cheese
Bobby fisher was often looking the chessboard from his opponents side. By trying to get an easy win when you are the aggressor u will not get a stupid loss when u are on the defensive. Because you will know the timing. Suppose you are a bad macro player with gaps in your bo. Its easier to get better by trying to find gaps in a good macro players bo and then watch how he counters it. How can you perfect your macro build if nobody crash tests it? You will just get a bad greedy style which is good only for macro vs macro.
You can do interesting things even if you do go for a quick expansion. Its fairly inefficient to play one base pvz these days. Most zergs will block your attempted harass and take an easy eco lead into the midgame. Its more exciting and efficient to see what you can do after taking a quick nexus. lots of protoss are trying cool things to bust turtling zergs with interesting good timings and mass drop strategies. its fairlty sad that you cant appreciate them because you're so set in your "GOTTA 1 BASE CHEESE TO BE FUN YO" bullshit mindset
Why so aggresive Kiante? sataNik was(is) a very good player, a top foreigner back a few years when he was active, and not with the reputation of a "cheeser".
He is just pointing out that the negativity directed towards cheesers is unjust, as who is to judge another on their choice of style? Playing a "cheese" strategy and playing against one will be improving both players play, and personally I find they can make for the most interesting games.
On October 14 2011 07:18 Kiante wrote: So what you're saying is using unusual styles based on scouting information and assumption of your opponents build.
all i see is you trying to get an easy win rather than trying to perfect your own macro builds immune to silly cheese
Bobby fisher was often looking the chessboard from his opponents side. By trying to get an easy win when you are the aggressor u will not get a stupid loss when u are on the defensive. Because you will know the timing. Suppose you are a bad macro player with gaps in your bo. Its easier to get better by trying to find gaps in a good macro players bo and then watch how he counters it. How can you perfect your macro build if nobody crash tests it? You will just get a bad greedy style which is good only for macro vs macro.
Of course i take into account cheese. I often try to work on improving my scouting and opening BO's to properly crush lame zerg cheese. You wanna be a crash test dummy? cool, but you'd probably find much more success in a tournament setting if u didn't just cheese ladder games and wank over how good you are
On October 14 2011 07:08 ArvickHero wrote: It sounds like you're saying strategies are stagnant nowadays, which is definitely not the case.
Excuse me? 9/10 games pvz toss opens up with forge nexus. where are the numerous 1 base strats? or 2 gate exp? 4/5 games tvz terran goes 1 rax cc into mass m&m or mech. Where are the amazing 1 base plays: 1 rax acad fact pushes? 2 rax fact acad? or the 3 rax +1 sunk break timing? or the 2 rax m&m + dropship? or the vessel rush +1 m&m + tanks scoop? if u think these are invalid or weak strategies let me prove you wrong. almost every zerg goes for mutalisks tvz.
nuff said
BW is still constantly evolving though, it's just not going in the way that you want.
The following quote does a good job of showing BW has still been evolving but is missing a lot of newer stuff and doesn't even cover zvp/zvz.
On September 28 2010 05:46 Ver wrote: SC mapped out? Few innovators/innovations? Are we watching the same games here? The late 2009/2010 season has been one of the most innovative years ever! There's a large amount of exploring left in many of these systems.
For Terran alone (listing general systems, not the absurd amount of variations):
TvZ- Safe 14cc on 2 player maps a dozen different variations of bio -> mech and vice versa with a lot more room for further exploration (this is huge!) Flexible Valkyrie first openings that can transition into many different possibilities A totally new approach vs 2 hatch muta with aggressive marine pushes (changes a lot) 7 Rax (and overlord snipes from it) 4 rax -> triple port wraith 2 rax acad allins 3rd denial vs 3 hatch muta (very unexplored and complex) 2 base allin vs crazy zerg (3 hatch muta to ultra) Revolutionary lategame defense based off of aggressive vessel raids, covering infantry, and massed tanks (probably the biggest change in years along with bio-mech transitions) 12pool Lair with a very different and expansive early/midgame Improvements on overall mech play (several new midgame options) Heavy and consistent Vulture/Valkyrie!? (totally unexplored)
TvP- Many different 3 base timings Many variations in the 2 fact after cc system both from siege expand and from FD 12 Nexus variations and emphasis 1 fact mine double expand in response to 12 Nexus New midgame Carrier transition ideas both before and after arbiters Rax Expand!! (a huge system with tons more exploration but right now there are many variations already)
As long as the pro scene stays alive in courts BW is fine. SC2 is just new (and getting many temporary tournies/players because of this) and people need a break from BW. Give half a year/year and things should be looking better.
On October 14 2011 07:08 ArvickHero wrote: It sounds like you're saying strategies are stagnant nowadays, which is definitely not the case.
Excuse me? 9/10 games pvz toss opens up with forge nexus. where are the numerous 1 base strats? or 2 gate exp? 4/5 games tvz terran goes 1 rax cc into mass m&m or mech. Where are the amazing 1 base plays: 1 rax acad fact pushes? 2 rax fact acad? or the 3 rax +1 sunk break timing? or the 2 rax m&m + dropship? or the vessel rush +1 m&m + tanks scoop? if u think these are invalid or weak strategies let me prove you wrong. almost every zerg goes for mutalisks tvz.
nuff said
Everything you just described are openings. The reason why 1base plays don't exist is because people got good at deflecting them or taking advantage of them and getting a huge advantage.
On October 14 2011 07:25 TranceStorm wrote: Hey didn't you play against Stork on stage at a WCG once?
I haven't played in quite a while, but I would say that its very difficult to come up with new builds and of course its just easier to copy an established build, but having a successful strategy that you develop for yourself is so rewarding.
Ye i played vs stork wcg 2007 top 16 and he "cheesed" me with 9 10 gate in game 1. I had the proper overpool build to counter it but i was nervous and sweating because i was vs stork and was 1st time in tv and fucked up. Man, creativity is all the fun, to copy established builds is the road to ignorance, you need to develop your own builds and perfect them.
I think ppl will consider most of the oldschool builds as cheese nowadays. I was cheesing alot like 3-4 years ago but not that much anymore.Doing cheesy builds helped me alot to improve my game and ppl dont understand how harder is to pull a good cheese instead of straight up play. Cheese strategies are fine to mix it up in matches so you can keep your oponents on their toes. I dont mind when im being cheesed with the exeption in pvz when i get 2/3 hatch hydra busted ..
Satanik I "hate" your builds because noone does them anymore nowadays and its hard to counter something you havent played in ages. It was fun playing your against your oldschool builds few days ago. Hope we play again soon
On October 14 2011 06:56 Kiante wrote: a good macro player will block your silly cheese and you'll get stalled at some point. Would be good to see the account you're "going up the ladder" on. But, do you really think you'll improve cheesing? You basically toss a coin and pray they dont scout/are prepared for whatever you're doing
His point is that people with bad build orders that are exploited by abusive play call people cheesers and get mad, when they only have themselves to blame for it. If they were really good, their builds would be cheese proof.
This guy is a baller by the way, he played vs korean pros in WCG.
Also, he's not saying the korean scene is strategically stagnant, he is saying that foreigners on iCCup have stagnated.
When i was battling with the korean pro gamers at 2006 A+ PGT there was mutual respect no matter what build was being used. I remember cheesing Yellow[arnc] 20 times in a row (every single one different cheese) and winning more than half of them. Was he mad? no. Was he a better player after those games? yes, more anticipation. Was i a better player? yes because i was categorising builds as effective/ineffective. Then again, kiante will call me a test dummy.
Well sataNik he obviously doesn't know who you are or he wouldn't even dare to talk like that to you, I remember watching one of your games vs some KR pro Terran on Lost temple maybe WCG game, was epic. You are a true foreign legend brotha
On October 14 2011 07:59 Sayle wrote: Man I thought this was a troll or a clueless newbie until I saw it was sataNik. Now I'm hoping he'll cheese his way through ISL3.
On October 14 2011 07:59 Sayle wrote: Man I thought this was a troll or a clueless newbie until I saw it was sataNik. Now I'm hoping he'll cheese his way through ISL3.
On October 14 2011 07:08 ArvickHero wrote: It sounds like you're saying strategies are stagnant nowadays, which is definitely not the case.
Excuse me? 9/10 games pvz toss opens up with forge nexus. where are the numerous 1 base strats? or 2 gate exp? 4/5 games tvz terran goes 1 rax cc into mass m&m or mech. Where are the amazing 1 base plays: 1 rax acad fact pushes? 2 rax fact acad? or the 3 rax +1 sunk break timing? or the 2 rax m&m + dropship? or the vessel rush +1 m&m + tanks scoop? if u think these are invalid or weak strategies let me prove you wrong. almost every zerg goes for mutalisks tvz.
nuff said
excuse me? What you listed are openings, only a fraction of strategies. Openings are mostly mapped out because they're easy to calculate and figure out.
The real fine strategy lies in the early-mid/midgame, which is still constantly evolving
I remember I played you 2 games in iccup. You cheesed in both lol. At least I won 1 game. Cheese is part of the game, but I think once you start doing it every single game it starts to get a little old and people will not like to play you.
On October 14 2011 08:37 kidd wrote: I remember I played you 2 games in iccup. You cheesed in both lol. At least I won 1 game. Cheese is part of the game, but I think once you start doing it every single game it starts to get a little old and people will not like to play you.
Boring it would be if it was the same kind of cheese every game. But this will be weak of course. For me it is boring to play 4 out of 5 games standard macrofest game (which also makes you tired). Ideal for me is something like: cheese 1/3 of games, get cheesed 1/3 and normal macro vs macro 1/3. This creates a dynamic balance which may eventually lead to other balances. But if someone is playing greedy, the proper punishment is aggression, which gives advantage, greed gives only equality. Think of it as rock paper scissors: cautious greed cheese cautious beats cheese cheese beats greed greed beats cautious
I find that in the current metagame greed is too high and cheese is too low, which makes cautious play weak. This is the case because its often advised that the cure for greed is more greed and if greed gets punished by cheese, cheese doesnt take credit.
Holy shit it's Satanik! <3 old school BWers, especially when they come back to playing BW
I sorta agree. A fine tuned, well prepared cheese is so awesome to watch and I agree that players on ICCup should play more "strategically" every now and then instead of solely working on their mechanics. But I also think that it's more fun to do these kind of things when you're playing against a same opponent for a lot of games, instead of random players on ladder. This way you can see each game how your opponent reacts and adapts to your "strategies".
On October 14 2011 08:58 2Pacalypse- wrote: Holy shit it's Satanik! <3 old school BWers, especially when they come back to playing BW
I sorta agree. A fine tuned, well prepared cheese is so awesome to watch and I agree that players on ICCup should play more "strategically" every now and then instead of solely working on their mechanics. But I also think that it's more fun to do these kind of things when you're playing against a same opponent for a lot of games, instead of random players on ladder. This way you can see each game how your opponent reacts and adapts to your "strategies".
Yeah I agree with this. If you cheese every ladder opponent, you are rolling the dice with respect to the greed>cautious>cheese>greed dynamic. The better overall player, in my opinion, will win more often if both players play a macro game and forgo the RPS. If you are selecting a particular cheese vs a particular opponent then this in my eyes is much more skillful.
On October 14 2011 07:08 ArvickHero wrote: It sounds like you're saying strategies are stagnant nowadays, which is definitely not the case.
Excuse me? 9/10 games pvz toss opens up with forge nexus. where are the numerous 1 base strats? or 2 gate exp? 4/5 games tvz terran goes 1 rax cc into mass m&m or mech. Where are the amazing 1 base plays: 1 rax acad fact pushes? 2 rax fact acad? or the 3 rax +1 sunk break timing? or the 2 rax m&m + dropship? or the vessel rush +1 m&m + tanks scoop? if u think these are invalid or weak strategies let me prove you wrong. almost every zerg goes for mutalisks tvz.
nuff said
excuse me? What you listed are openings, only a fraction of strategies. Openings are mostly mapped out because they're easy to calculate and figure out.
The real fine strategy lies in the early-mid/midgame, which is still constantly evolving
I also think early-mid variance is too narrow and im talking mostly about iccup, not pro-leagues. some examples: PvZ reavers underused, carriers underused, Dweb underused, Red archons underused. Just the mindless mass unit + secure expo pattern which is easily countered by defilers or mass lategame drops. TvP: the popularized by flash 3-3 turtle terran style is not as strong as it looks but it can be punished almost exclusively in very long games. 2 fact pushes are not weak all of a sudden and 5-6 factory timing push after expo is as strong as ever, but they both seem out of fashion. Not to mention the insanely strong tank+ mass m&m (zeal-goon bane) after expo. Who does these things now? only me im afraid. And dont tell me about reavers, only fast storm hard counters it. ZvP: zerg does not NEED to take an immediate 3rd in response to fast expo p, contrary to common belief. He can validly tech, power drones, rush or plan for lategame with early evolution chambers while being at 2 base. TvZ: Terran seems to think he can somehow perform a miracle and win a lategame vs defilers, ultras or whatever, giving all the time of the world to zerg. Dont let the occasional lategame wins of monster skilled terrans fool you: THE motto is: A good zerg is a dead zerg
On October 14 2011 08:58 2Pacalypse- wrote: Holy shit it's Satanik! <3 old school BWers, especially when they come back to playing BW
I sorta agree. A fine tuned, well prepared cheese is so awesome to watch and I agree that players on ICCup should play more "strategically" every now and then instead of solely working on their mechanics. But I also think that it's more fun to do these kind of things when you're playing against a same opponent for a lot of games, instead of random players on ladder. This way you can see each game how your opponent reacts and adapts to your "strategies".
Exactly. In a series of games vs the same player there is a need for variance. But! When a massive amount of players wrongly thinks that one play is correct, another one incorrect and is completely oblivious to a 3rd, when in truth all 3 are valid, it makes it all too easy for me to notice the tread, abuse it and get negative comments in the end instead of ggs.
After reading all of your concerns I've found your problem. The problem is you're playing on iccup. Go play on fish and enjoy a more fullfilling set of strategies. I get 2 facced in some form or another like every 2nd game. 4-6 facs to punish my builds are common and so is a 3 base 2-1 timing push strategy (its not 3-3 btw)
You seem to have taken some specific games and blown them out of proportion. I actually played like, 40 or so games on iccup recently. I found more of my pvz's were 2 base strategic plays (or hidden 3rds, etc), with drops being utilised against me alot. myself, i was using a variety of 1 and 2 base builds, from a standard FFE into sair/speedlot timing attacks, to 1 base stargate into goon/reaver or scout into 3 gate goon, and in some cases going 2 gate at my nat to put on pressure and expanding behind it.
Maybe its unfortunate all your opponents played straight up, but if you went and got up to a decent rank you're probably capable of on fish you'd most likely find people who would play straight up and deflect your cheese, or be cheesing against you, but doing it with killer effficiency, as opposed to some of the cheese i see in tournaments, or face on iccup which is often non-optimal.
I completely agree with you, modern BW has gotten stale and uninteresting. The metagame has pretty much been "solved" or so we like to think, when in reality there is always room for improvement. It's always great to experiment or try something new or fascinating, just to keep it interesting. I actually like to mind control enemy units and do crazy stuff like that sometimes (some people might say it's BM), but it's really a lot of fun. There is no point in thinking in a straight line, old school BWers thought outside the box to get to where we are today, for example muta micro was a glitch that progamers exploited but now it's a standard feature of the metagame.
In summary, I just want to say We should never be afraid to experiment or try something new.
On October 14 2011 08:58 2Pacalypse- wrote: Holy shit it's Satanik! <3 old school BWers, especially when they come back to playing BW
I sorta agree. A fine tuned, well prepared cheese is so awesome to watch and I agree that players on ICCup should play more "strategically" every now and then instead of solely working on their mechanics. But I also think that it's more fun to do these kind of things when you're playing against a same opponent for a lot of games, instead of random players on ladder. This way you can see each game how your opponent reacts and adapts to your "strategies".
Yeah I agree with this. If you cheese every ladder opponent, you are rolling the dice with respect to the greed>cautious>cheese>greed dynamic. The better overall player, in my opinion, will win more often if both players play a macro game and forgo the RPS. If you are selecting a particular cheese vs a particular opponent then this in my eyes is much more skillful.
Mind you that if I am cheesing almost every ladder its not because im in love with cheese, its only because i abuse the current trend of greed. When caution was the trend i was the one to greed. That was often the case when i had a cheesy image and people were too cautious when playing vs me.
As for now, there is nothing that i can do better than to punish cheese with cautious play. When cheese gets me, i really give kudos to the guy. Because he is clever and he tricked me.
Dont get me wrong, I surely respect the skill of dumb macro spamming to victory but there are other things in bw too.
What im doing here is simply pointing out the ill concept that cheese is something low, or else i cant explain the all too common negativity and lack of manner after short games.
On September 28 2010 05:46 Ver wrote: SC mapped out? Few innovators/innovations? Are we watching the same games here? The late 2009/2010 season has been one of the most innovative years ever! There's a large amount of exploring left in many of these systems.
For Terran alone (listing general systems, not the absurd amount of variations):
TvZ- Safe 14cc on 2 player maps a dozen different variations of bio -> mech and vice versa with a lot more room for further exploration (this is huge!) Flexible Valkyrie first openings that can transition into many different possibilities A totally new approach vs 2 hatch muta with aggressive marine pushes (changes a lot) 7 Rax (and overlord snipes from it) 4 rax -> triple port wraith 2 rax acad allins 3rd denial vs 3 hatch muta (very unexplored and complex) 2 base allin vs crazy zerg (3 hatch muta to ultra) Revolutionary lategame defense based off of aggressive vessel raids, covering infantry, and massed tanks (probably the biggest change in years along with bio-mech transitions) 12pool Lair with a very different and expansive early/midgame Improvements on overall mech play (several new midgame options) Heavy and consistent Vulture/Valkyrie!? (totally unexplored)
TvP- Many different 3 base timings Many variations in the 2 fact after cc system both from siege expand and from FD 12 Nexus variations and emphasis 1 fact mine double expand in response to 12 Nexus New midgame Carrier transition ideas both before and after arbiters Rax Expand!! (a huge system with tons more exploration but right now there are many variations already)
As long as the pro scene stays alive in courts BW is fine. SC2 is just new (and getting many temporary tournies/players because of this) and people need a break from BW. Give half a year/year and things should be looking better.
Unless I missed I skimmed these links incorrectly I don't see this triple port wraith build this guy is talking about. Anyone know what match that was?
as long as you're relying on a coin toss of not getting scouted to win games you'll most likely be up against people who'll react negatively when they lose to it. Learn to live with it or move to fish where their insults in broken english are hillarious
On September 28 2010 05:46 Ver wrote: SC mapped out? Few innovators/innovations? Are we watching the same games here? The late 2009/2010 season has been one of the most innovative years ever! There's a large amount of exploring left in many of these systems.
For Terran alone (listing general systems, not the absurd amount of variations):
TvZ- Safe 14cc on 2 player maps a dozen different variations of bio -> mech and vice versa with a lot more room for further exploration (this is huge!) Flexible Valkyrie first openings that can transition into many different possibilities A totally new approach vs 2 hatch muta with aggressive marine pushes (changes a lot) 7 Rax (and overlord snipes from it) 4 rax -> triple port wraith 2 rax acad allins 3rd denial vs 3 hatch muta (very unexplored and complex) 2 base allin vs crazy zerg (3 hatch muta to ultra) Revolutionary lategame defense based off of aggressive vessel raids, covering infantry, and massed tanks (probably the biggest change in years along with bio-mech transitions) 12pool Lair with a very different and expansive early/midgame Improvements on overall mech play (several new midgame options) Heavy and consistent Vulture/Valkyrie!? (totally unexplored)
TvP- Many different 3 base timings Many variations in the 2 fact after cc system both from siege expand and from FD 12 Nexus variations and emphasis 1 fact mine double expand in response to 12 Nexus New midgame Carrier transition ideas both before and after arbiters Rax Expand!! (a huge system with tons more exploration but right now there are many variations already)
As long as the pro scene stays alive in courts BW is fine. SC2 is just new (and getting many temporary tournies/players because of this) and people need a break from BW. Give half a year/year and things should be looking better.
Unless I missed I skimmed these links incorrectly I don't see this triple port wraith build this guy is talking about. Anyone know what match that was?
hiya vs free on triathlon
oh my bad the tvz one, yeah i dunno sorry D: sounds like an upmagic game tho
On October 14 2011 08:58 2Pacalypse- wrote: Holy shit it's Satanik! <3 old school BWers, especially when they come back to playing BW
I sorta agree. A fine tuned, well prepared cheese is so awesome to watch and I agree that players on ICCup should play more "strategically" every now and then instead of solely working on their mechanics. But I also think that it's more fun to do these kind of things when you're playing against a same opponent for a lot of games, instead of random players on ladder. This way you can see each game how your opponent reacts and adapts to your "strategies".
Yeah I agree with this. If you cheese every ladder opponent, you are rolling the dice with respect to the greed>cautious>cheese>greed dynamic. The better overall player, in my opinion, will win more often if both players play a macro game and forgo the RPS. If you are selecting a particular cheese vs a particular opponent then this in my eyes is much more skillful.
Mind you that if I am cheesing almost every ladder its not because im in love with cheese, its only because i abuse the current trend of greed. When caution was the trend i was the one to greed. That was often the case when i had a cheesy image and people were too cautious when playing vs me.
As for now, there is nothing that i can do better than to punish cheese with cautious play. When cheese gets me, i really give kudos to the guy. Because he is clever and he tricked me.
Dont get me wrong, I surely respect the skill of dumb macro spamming to victory but there are other things in bw too.
What im doing here is simply pointing out the ill concept that cheese is something low, or else i cant explain the all too common negativity and lack of manner after short games.
If there is a trend of greed then you are doing nothing wrong, I'd only take issue if the games were split between greed and caution because then you'd be flipping a coin.
I still am of the opinion that cheese is a lower skill than late game and macro ability. If I looked at the best cheeser in the world and a macro player with comparative skill, I would say the macro player was the better player (impossible to objectively measure skill in this instance). This is because I think a macro player will win more games than a cheese player, because the skillset of a macro player is much wider than the skillset required to be a good cheese player.
On October 14 2011 09:30 Kiante wrote: thats not cheese. Thats just proper countering of your build order. go listen to the nony interview from TSL2
I would personally qualify any "all-in" as a "Cheese" but that's a different matter. isn't the 4 gate more suited for 1 fact FEs?
no. you gas steal the terran, or see a 1 rax FE. they put a bunker at their nat, you drop 3 gates somewhere near their base. get like 3-4 goons hitting their bunker and dont let a scout out of their base (so watch the goons you have at their front). they have like 4 scv's repairing, you pump out 4 zealots, send them in, bunker dies, zealots close on the 1 tank they have by then, tank dies as zealots rip up scv's and your next wave of goon/zealot kills them. a 1 fac fe would probably just rape it with mines or siege, which come out much faster
On October 14 2011 09:25 Kiante wrote: After reading all of your concerns I've found your problem. The problem is you're playing on iccup. Go play on fish and enjoy a more fullfilling set of strategies. I get 2 facced in some form or another like every 2nd game. 4-6 facs to punish my builds are common and so is a 3 base 2-1 timing push strategy (its not 3-3 btw)
You seem to have taken some specific games and blown them out of proportion. I actually played like, 40 or so games on iccup recently. I found more of my pvz's were 2 base strategic plays (or hidden 3rds, etc), with drops being utilised against me alot. myself, i was using a variety of 1 and 2 base builds, from a standard FFE into sair/speedlot timing attacks, to 1 base stargate into goon/reaver or scout into 3 gate goon, and in some cases going 2 gate at my nat to put on pressure and expanding behind it.
Maybe its unfortunate all your opponents played straight up, but if you went and got up to a decent rank you're probably capable of on fish you'd most likely find people who would play straight up and deflect your cheese, or be cheesing against you, but doing it with killer effficiency, as opposed to some of the cheese i see in tournaments, or face on iccup which is often non-optimal.
When i was playing neogamei back in the day i had the most healthy enviroment for intersting play. Maybe fish is something like that as you say, but unfortunately i tried it and the games were laggy. From what you say, the korean metagame seems fairly healthy, I would also like to see that in iccup.
On October 14 2011 06:56 Kiante wrote: a good macro player will block your silly cheese and you'll get stalled at some point. Would be good to see the account you're "going up the ladder" on. But, do you really think you'll improve cheesing? You basically toss a coin and pray they dont scout/are prepared for whatever you're doing
On October 14 2011 09:30 Kiante wrote: thats not cheese. Thats just proper countering of your build order. go listen to the nony interview from TSL2
You just TOTALLY contradicted ALL of you're previous posts with this post, I hope you go back and read everything you wrote. Because after that, all of you're previous posts make literally NO sense. and also, 4gate zeal PvT? rofl please.
On October 14 2011 09:40 Kiante wrote: as long as you're relying on a coin toss of not getting scouted to win games you'll most likely be up against people who'll react negatively when they lose to it. Learn to live with it or move to fish where their insults in broken english are hillarious
You gotta be kidding me, if i was accused of cheese only when my victories relied upon not being scouted, i wouldnt even start the subject. Im telling you: no matter what i do which deviates from the norm is percieved as cheese.
On October 14 2011 08:58 2Pacalypse- wrote: Holy shit it's Satanik! <3 old school BWers, especially when they come back to playing BW
I sorta agree. A fine tuned, well prepared cheese is so awesome to watch and I agree that players on ICCup should play more "strategically" every now and then instead of solely working on their mechanics. But I also think that it's more fun to do these kind of things when you're playing against a same opponent for a lot of games, instead of random players on ladder. This way you can see each game how your opponent reacts and adapts to your "strategies".
Yeah I agree with this. If you cheese every ladder opponent, you are rolling the dice with respect to the greed>cautious>cheese>greed dynamic. The better overall player, in my opinion, will win more often if both players play a macro game and forgo the RPS. If you are selecting a particular cheese vs a particular opponent then this in my eyes is much more skillful.
Mind you that if I am cheesing almost every ladder its not because im in love with cheese, its only because i abuse the current trend of greed. When caution was the trend i was the one to greed. That was often the case when i had a cheesy image and people were too cautious when playing vs me.
As for now, there is nothing that i can do better than to punish cheese with cautious play. When cheese gets me, i really give kudos to the guy. Because he is clever and he tricked me.
Dont get me wrong, I surely respect the skill of dumb macro spamming to victory but there are other things in bw too.
What im doing here is simply pointing out the ill concept that cheese is something low, or else i cant explain the all too common negativity and lack of manner after short games.
If there is a trend of greed then you are doing nothing wrong, I'd only take issue if the games were split between greed and caution because then you'd be flipping a coin.
I still am of the opinion that cheese is a lower skill than late game and macro ability. If I looked at the best cheeser in the world and a macro player with comparative skill, I would say the macro player was the better player (impossible to objectively measure skill in this instance). This is because I think a macro player will win more games than a cheese player, because the skillset of a macro player is much wider than the skillset required to be a good cheese player.
Just my opinion though.
Wasn't boxer a cheeser? Wasn't he the best for so many years? I think the term "cheeser" is annoying, it should be "strategical player" instead. Or maybe to define cheese as pure gamble, can we call cheese a super solid strategical 2 base all-in of 2-2 graded toss units vs zerg? If yes, we got a terminology problem. Also as regarding to macro i can say that besides the economy macro there is also the massing unit macro. I'm often being accused of mineral hacking because i produce too many units with too few bases, lol.
On October 14 2011 07:08 ArvickHero wrote: It sounds like you're saying strategies are stagnant nowadays, which is definitely not the case.
Excuse me? 9/10 games pvz toss opens up with forge nexus. where are the numerous 1 base strats? or 2 gate exp? 4/5 games tvz terran goes 1 rax cc into mass m&m or mech. Where are the amazing 1 base plays: 1 rax acad fact pushes? 2 rax fact acad? or the 3 rax +1 sunk break timing? or the 2 rax m&m + dropship? or the vessel rush +1 m&m + tanks scoop? if u think these are invalid or weak strategies let me prove you wrong. almost every zerg goes for mutalisks tvz.
nuff said
excuse me? What you listed are openings, only a fraction of strategies. Openings are mostly mapped out because they're easy to calculate and figure out.
The real fine strategy lies in the early-mid/midgame, which is still constantly evolving
I also think early-mid variance is too narrow and im talking mostly about iccup, not pro-leagues. some examples: PvZ reavers underused, carriers underused, Dweb underused, Red archons underused. Just the mindless mass unit + secure expo pattern which is easily countered by defilers or mass lategame drops. TvP: the popularized by flash 3-3 turtle terran style is not as strong as it looks but it can be punished almost exclusively in very long games. 2 fact pushes are not weak all of a sudden and 5-6 factory timing push after expo is as strong as ever, but they both seem out of fashion. Not to mention the insanely strong tank+ mass m&m (zeal-goon bane) after expo. Who does these things now? only me im afraid. And dont tell me about reavers, only fast storm hard counters it. ZvP: zerg does not NEED to take an immediate 3rd in response to fast expo p, contrary to common belief. He can validly tech, power drones, rush or plan for lategame with early evolution chambers while being at 2 base. TvZ: Terran seems to think he can somehow perform a miracle and win a lategame vs defilers, ultras or whatever, giving all the time of the world to zerg. Dont let the occasional lategame wins of monster skilled terrans fool you: THE motto is: A good zerg is a dead zerg
if we're talking about ICCup then probably yea, strategies are stagnant because of players like Artosis and Idra popularizing the mindset "Macro good Cheese bad" (bullshit imo).
but to explain why some units are underused, in PvZ Reavers require a high amount of skill to use effectively, and are somewhat map specific, and Carriers are only viable as transition from Sair/Reaver on certain maps. DWeb and Dark Archons should be used more but since progamers do not use them often, foreigners don't either lol. Zergs do a lot of strange things on ICCup, so in my experience PvZ is always interesting and different every game ..
also I would agree that I dislike the term "cheese", but rather call it "strategical play". BW is a strategy game after all, no need to ostracize those who use certain strategies ;P
On October 14 2011 09:40 Kiante wrote: as long as you're relying on a coin toss of not getting scouted to win games you'll most likely be up against people who'll react negatively when they lose to it. Learn to live with it or move to fish where their insults in broken english are hillarious
You gotta be kidding me, if i was accused of cheese only when my victories relied upon not being scouted, i wouldnt even start the subject. Im telling you: no matter what i do which deviates from the norm is percieved as cheese.
Well i think your definition of cheese is wrong then.. A cheesy strategy is often considered to only work if not scouted, ive read the whole thread and to me all you say is to exploit your oponents build/playstyle with unortodox builds, that to me is not cheese and requires tremendous game sense and skill to consistantly pull off.
Ive never heard of you before, me having joined the scene not ao long ago, but i can say that this thread has inspired me to be more creative and agressive.
Satanik, I'm too new to this scene (not to sc in general, but the 1v1 style "pro" scene) to remember your reign over the scene, but everyone else says I should give you a look-see!
Do you have any plans to release a replay pack or to give some examples of your "creative" strategies? I've been experimenting with "off-beat" zerg builds but have found little to no references on things like (just for example, there's many more I try) +1 fast ranged attack upg in 2 hatch lurker in ZvT or double-evo chamber mass unit play in ZvP. With so few replays or VODs out of these very rare builds in the pro scene, its hard to find a nice collection from a proficient player who accurately shows how you can transition into macro styles and secure your advantage.
For someone who supposedly plays very creative innovative builds, possible cheese / "strategic" play, I don't think sataNik has really played in awhile due to not seeing him / the way he worded his posts, and he is already B rank ( just talked to him on iCCup ) so all the stuff this guy is saying shouldn't be taken lightly, its the truth! It's no joke to not play BW for as long as he did then come back and get B rank with ease, like I said before, guy is a true foreign legend
On October 14 2011 06:56 Kiante wrote: a good macro player will block your silly cheese and you'll get stalled at some point. Would be good to see the account you're "going up the ladder" on. But, do you really think you'll improve cheesing? You basically toss a coin and pray they dont scout/are prepared for whatever you're doing
On October 14 2011 09:30 Kiante wrote: thats not cheese. Thats just proper countering of your build order. go listen to the nony interview from TSL2
You just TOTALLY contradicted ALL of you're previous posts with this post, I hope you go back and read everything you wrote. Because after that, all of you're previous posts make literally NO sense. and also, 4gate zeal PvT? rofl please.
not at all. 4 gate vs a 1 rax fe is a standard transition from a 1 gate core opening for protoss. Even if i dont kill the terran with it i'll kill a shit ton of scv's and expand behind it. sure i lose a few proxied gates, but honestly its only failed once and i still won the game.
Can't wait for someone to do something innovative now. Flash's +1 armor goliath attack was sheer genius. For a while Shine did some of the greatest 5/6 hatch hydra against protoss.
i feel like i understand where satanik is coming from, in my words its that once the game starts it doesn't matter where you go with it but its all tactical. If you 'cheese' so to speak, then theres a reason you're doing it and so a 5 pool is just as strategic as a fast nexus for protoss, just both have a very different goal, one long term one short term. All in all once the game starts you're on your own and nothing is unfair, its about the win and seeing where your opponent is weak. Also my own 2 cents is that we should eliminate the word 'standard' from starcraft, because if you have an idea of standard you're not playing the game right
On October 14 2011 06:56 Kiante wrote: a good macro player will block your silly cheese and you'll get stalled at some point. Would be good to see the account you're "going up the ladder" on. But, do you really think you'll improve cheesing? You basically toss a coin and pray they dont scout/are prepared for whatever you're doing
On October 14 2011 09:30 Kiante wrote: thats not cheese. Thats just proper countering of your build order. go listen to the nony interview from TSL2
You just TOTALLY contradicted ALL of you're previous posts with this post, I hope you go back and read everything you wrote. Because after that, all of you're previous posts make literally NO sense. and also, 4gate zeal PvT? rofl please.
not at all. 4 gate vs a 1 rax fe is a standard transition from a 1 gate core opening for protoss. Even if i dont kill the terran with it i'll kill a shit ton of scv's and expand behind it. sure i lose a few proxied gates, but honestly its only failed once and i still won the game.
LOL? Says who? , 4gate is never standard in any matchup, in any situation, ESPECIALLY PvT, even if they 1rax FE it doesn't matter, you are better off just 2gate zeal into 2gate goon while expanding than doing some ridiculous 4gate vs 1rax FE........That is just .....I don't even have the word for it but it sure as hell isn't standard. What are you smoking Kiante? Share plz
EDIT : The only time I could ever see where that would be sensationally viable is on BlueStorm if they DON'T wall off, and if they do u just lose, or in PvP if you are forced to 4gate for some strange reason (It can happen)
On September 28 2010 05:46 Ver wrote: SC mapped out? Few innovators/innovations? Are we watching the same games here? The late 2009/2010 season has been one of the most innovative years ever! There's a large amount of exploring left in many of these systems.
For Terran alone (listing general systems, not the absurd amount of variations):
TvZ- Safe 14cc on 2 player maps a dozen different variations of bio -> mech and vice versa with a lot more room for further exploration (this is huge!) Flexible Valkyrie first openings that can transition into many different possibilities A totally new approach vs 2 hatch muta with aggressive marine pushes (changes a lot) 7 Rax (and overlord snipes from it) 4 rax -> triple port wraith 2 rax acad allins 3rd denial vs 3 hatch muta (very unexplored and complex) 2 base allin vs crazy zerg (3 hatch muta to ultra) Revolutionary lategame defense based off of aggressive vessel raids, covering infantry, and massed tanks (probably the biggest change in years along with bio-mech transitions) 12pool Lair with a very different and expansive early/midgame Improvements on overall mech play (several new midgame options) Heavy and consistent Vulture/Valkyrie!? (totally unexplored)
TvP- Many different 3 base timings Many variations in the 2 fact after cc system both from siege expand and from FD 12 Nexus variations and emphasis 1 fact mine double expand in response to 12 Nexus New midgame Carrier transition ideas both before and after arbiters Rax Expand!! (a huge system with tons more exploration but right now there are many variations already)
As long as the pro scene stays alive in courts BW is fine. SC2 is just new (and getting many temporary tournies/players because of this) and people need a break from BW. Give half a year/year and things should be looking better.
Unless I missed I skimmed these links incorrectly I don't see this triple port wraith build this guy is talking about. Anyone know what match that was?
I remember a game between classic and zero involving that (on Grand Line I THINK)
On October 14 2011 06:56 Kiante wrote: a good macro player will block your silly cheese and you'll get stalled at some point. Would be good to see the account you're "going up the ladder" on. But, do you really think you'll improve cheesing? You basically toss a coin and pray they dont scout/are prepared for whatever you're doing
On October 14 2011 09:30 Kiante wrote: thats not cheese. Thats just proper countering of your build order. go listen to the nony interview from TSL2
You just TOTALLY contradicted ALL of you're previous posts with this post, I hope you go back and read everything you wrote. Because after that, all of you're previous posts make literally NO sense. and also, 4gate zeal PvT? rofl please.
not at all. 4 gate vs a 1 rax fe is a standard transition from a 1 gate core opening for protoss. Even if i dont kill the terran with it i'll kill a shit ton of scv's and expand behind it. sure i lose a few proxied gates, but honestly its only failed once and i still won the game.
LOL? Says who? , 4gate is never standard in any matchup, in any situation, ESPECIALLY PvT, even if they 1rax FE it doesn't matter, you are better off just 2gate zeal into 2gate goon while expanding than doing some ridiculous 4gate vs 1rax FE........That is just .....I don't even have the word for it but it sure as hell isn't standard. What are you smoking Kiante? Share plz
EDIT : The only time I could ever see where that would be sensationally viable is on BlueStorm if they DON'T wall off, and if they do u just lose, or in PvP if you are forced to 4gate for some strange reason (It can happen)
Actually, PvT 4gate vs 1rax FE is very viable. I remember it was used in a Korean Pro-game before. Nony also used it vs Idra in TSL2. You really shouldn't be so condescending just because Kiante disagrees with sataNik considering sataNik himself wasn't even acting like this. I mean, I agree it's not the standard response, but it definitely works.
On October 14 2011 10:50 sCCrooked wrote: Satanik, I'm too new to this scene (not to sc in general, but the 1v1 style "pro" scene) to remember your reign over the scene, but everyone else says I should give you a look-see!
Do you have any plans to release a replay pack or to give some examples of your "creative" strategies? I've been experimenting with "off-beat" zerg builds but have found little to no references on things like (just for example, there's many more I try) +1 fast ranged attack upg in 2 hatch lurker in ZvT or double-evo chamber mass unit play in ZvP. With so few replays or VODs out of these very rare builds in the pro scene, its hard to find a nice collection from a proficient player who accurately shows how you can transition into macro styles and secure your advantage.
Soon probably im gonna release a massive rep pack of my games until 2007
On September 28 2010 05:46 Ver wrote: SC mapped out? Few innovators/innovations? Are we watching the same games here? The late 2009/2010 season has been one of the most innovative years ever! There's a large amount of exploring left in many of these systems.
For Terran alone (listing general systems, not the absurd amount of variations):
TvZ- Safe 14cc on 2 player maps a dozen different variations of bio -> mech and vice versa with a lot more room for further exploration (this is huge!) Flexible Valkyrie first openings that can transition into many different possibilities A totally new approach vs 2 hatch muta with aggressive marine pushes (changes a lot) 7 Rax (and overlord snipes from it) 4 rax -> triple port wraith 2 rax acad allins 3rd denial vs 3 hatch muta (very unexplored and complex) 2 base allin vs crazy zerg (3 hatch muta to ultra) Revolutionary lategame defense based off of aggressive vessel raids, covering infantry, and massed tanks (probably the biggest change in years along with bio-mech transitions) 12pool Lair with a very different and expansive early/midgame Improvements on overall mech play (several new midgame options) Heavy and consistent Vulture/Valkyrie!? (totally unexplored)
TvP- Many different 3 base timings Many variations in the 2 fact after cc system both from siege expand and from FD 12 Nexus variations and emphasis 1 fact mine double expand in response to 12 Nexus New midgame Carrier transition ideas both before and after arbiters Rax Expand!! (a huge system with tons more exploration but right now there are many variations already)
As long as the pro scene stays alive in courts BW is fine. SC2 is just new (and getting many temporary tournies/players because of this) and people need a break from BW. Give half a year/year and things should be looking better.
Unless I missed I skimmed these links incorrectly I don't see this triple port wraith build this guy is talking about. Anyone know what match that was?
I remember a game between classic and zero involving that (on Grand Line I THINK)
I think there is one involving By.BaBy as well...searching for it now...
Dude I am not saying 4Gate vs 1rax FE isn't viable, i'm saying its as far off as standard as you can possibly get. I promise I don't think it ISN'T Viable, I Cheese all the time in every matchup so trust me I know, I have done many a 2gate into proxy 2gate PvP but Never a 4gate vs 1rax FE....I mean it just doesn't seem to have much of a follow up planobviously, if he blocks off somehow some way, then you just auto lose.
On October 14 2011 12:12 GGzerG wrote: Dude I am not saying 4Gate vs 1rax FE isn't viable, i'm saying its as far off as standard as you can possibly get. I promise I don't think it ISN'T Viable, I Cheese all the time in every matchup so trust me I know, I have done many a 2gate into proxy 2gate PvP but Never a 4gate vs 1rax FE....I mean it just doesn't seem to have much of a follow up planobviously, if he blocks off somehow some way, then you just auto lose.
On October 14 2011 06:56 Kiante wrote: a good macro player will block your silly cheese and you'll get stalled at some point. Would be good to see the account you're "going up the ladder" on. But, do you really think you'll improve cheesing? You basically toss a coin and pray they dont scout/are prepared for whatever you're doing
On October 14 2011 09:30 Kiante wrote: thats not cheese. Thats just proper countering of your build order. go listen to the nony interview from TSL2
You just TOTALLY contradicted ALL of you're previous posts with this post, I hope you go back and read everything you wrote. Because after that, all of you're previous posts make literally NO sense. and also, 4gate zeal PvT? rofl please.
not at all. 4 gate vs a 1 rax fe is a standard transition from a 1 gate core opening for protoss. Even if i dont kill the terran with it i'll kill a shit ton of scv's and expand behind it. sure i lose a few proxied gates, but honestly its only failed once and i still won the game.
LOL? Says who? , 4gate is never standard in any matchup, in any situation, ESPECIALLY PvT, even if they 1rax FE it doesn't matter, you are better off just 2gate zeal into 2gate goon while expanding than doing some ridiculous 4gate vs 1rax FE........That is just .....I don't even have the word for it but it sure as hell isn't standard. What are you smoking Kiante? Share plz
EDIT : The only time I could ever see where that would be sensationally viable is on BlueStorm if they DON'T wall off, and if they do u just lose, or in PvP if you are forced to 4gate for some strange reason (It can happen)
Actually, PvT 4gate vs 1rax FE is very viable. I remember it was used in a Korean Pro-game before. Nony also used it vs Idra in TSL2. You really shouldn't be so condescending just because Kiante disagrees with sataNik considering sataNik himself wasn't even acting like this. I mean, I agree it's not the standard response, but it definitely works.
This. Kiante knows what he's talking about. If executed correctly the 4gate should stomp a 1rax FE.
I would know. I almost lost to Fanatacist but he mis-microed.
I'm saying I don't go into the game going, gonna 4 gate, I simply play for a macro game and do the allin if the situation forces me too. Also I never said I don't cheese, I said cheesing exclusively in a ladder doesn't help you improve.
On October 14 2011 06:56 Kiante wrote: a good macro player will block your silly cheese and you'll get stalled at some point. Would be good to see the account you're "going up the ladder" on. But, do you really think you'll improve cheesing? You basically toss a coin and pray they dont scout/are prepared for whatever you're doing
On October 14 2011 09:30 Kiante wrote: thats not cheese. Thats just proper countering of your build order. go listen to the nony interview from TSL2
You just TOTALLY contradicted ALL of you're previous posts with this post, I hope you go back and read everything you wrote. Because after that, all of you're previous posts make literally NO sense. and also, 4gate zeal PvT? rofl please.
not at all. 4 gate vs a 1 rax fe is a standard transition from a 1 gate core opening for protoss. Even if i dont kill the terran with it i'll kill a shit ton of scv's and expand behind it. sure i lose a few proxied gates, but honestly its only failed once and i still won the game.
I strongly disagree, 4gate is not standard at all or we would see progamers doing it all the time. Even if you kill many scvs, the terran still has two ccs that can rebuild scvs twice as fast as you. You cant expand behind this build until your aggression is over, and you cut tons of probes while setting up and attacking. In nonys interview i remember he stated that it seemed good but he didnt see progamers doing it so maybe theyd already found a counter to it, and was hoping that idra had not had such experience already, so obviously he was not secure in any knowledge of his build being a flawless counter.
it seems you have found a variety of "cheese" to be effective for you, yet you view cheese in general to be contemptible. I agree with ggzerg that you are indeed contradicting yourself.
if cheese was not viable, then bw would transcend into an endless cycle of greed, which is not evident in the pro scene these days, so i think cheese is still viable. I see progamers dying to attacks at unexpected timings all the time.
also, welcome back satanik!
edit: in the time it took me to write this people have already added replies that make my post unnecessary. take it as you will
On September 28 2010 05:46 Ver wrote: SC mapped out? Few innovators/innovations? Are we watching the same games here? The late 2009/2010 season has been one of the most innovative years ever! There's a large amount of exploring left in many of these systems.
For Terran alone (listing general systems, not the absurd amount of variations):
TvZ- Safe 14cc on 2 player maps a dozen different variations of bio -> mech and vice versa with a lot more room for further exploration (this is huge!) Flexible Valkyrie first openings that can transition into many different possibilities A totally new approach vs 2 hatch muta with aggressive marine pushes (changes a lot) 7 Rax (and overlord snipes from it) 4 rax -> triple port wraith 2 rax acad allins 3rd denial vs 3 hatch muta (very unexplored and complex) 2 base allin vs crazy zerg (3 hatch muta to ultra) Revolutionary lategame defense based off of aggressive vessel raids, covering infantry, and massed tanks (probably the biggest change in years along with bio-mech transitions) 12pool Lair with a very different and expansive early/midgame Improvements on overall mech play (several new midgame options) Heavy and consistent Vulture/Valkyrie!? (totally unexplored)
TvP- Many different 3 base timings Many variations in the 2 fact after cc system both from siege expand and from FD 12 Nexus variations and emphasis 1 fact mine double expand in response to 12 Nexus New midgame Carrier transition ideas both before and after arbiters Rax Expand!! (a huge system with tons more exploration but right now there are many variations already)
As long as the pro scene stays alive in courts BW is fine. SC2 is just new (and getting many temporary tournies/players because of this) and people need a break from BW. Give half a year/year and things should be looking better.
Unless I missed I skimmed these links incorrectly I don't see this triple port wraith build this guy is talking about. Anyone know what match that was?
I remember a game between classic and zero involving that (on Grand Line I THINK)
Hello, I'm not sure who you are (as i've only recently began following Brood War), but seeing as how popular you are, you should start streaming. I'm sure many people, including myself, would enjoy watching, and you should be able to get featured relatively easily.
On October 14 2011 06:56 Kiante wrote: a good macro player will block your silly cheese and you'll get stalled at some point. Would be good to see the account you're "going up the ladder" on. But, do you really think you'll improve cheesing? You basically toss a coin and pray they dont scout/are prepared for whatever you're doing
On October 14 2011 09:30 Kiante wrote: thats not cheese. Thats just proper countering of your build order. go listen to the nony interview from TSL2
You just TOTALLY contradicted ALL of you're previous posts with this post, I hope you go back and read everything you wrote. Because after that, all of you're previous posts make literally NO sense. and also, 4gate zeal PvT? rofl please.
not at all. 4 gate vs a 1 rax fe is a standard transition from a 1 gate core opening for protoss. Even if i dont kill the terran with it i'll kill a shit ton of scv's and expand behind it. sure i lose a few proxied gates, but honestly its only failed once and i still won the game.
I strongly disagree, 4gate is not standard at all or we would see progamers doing it all the time. Even if you kill many scvs, the terran still has two ccs that can rebuild scvs twice as fast as you. You cant expand behind this build until your aggression is over, and you cut tons of probes while setting up and attacking. In nonys interview i remember he stated that it seemed good but he didnt see progamers doing it so maybe theyd already found a counter to it, and was hoping that idra had not had such experience already, so obviously he was not secure in any knowledge of his build being a flawless counter.
it seems you have found a variety of "cheese" to be effective for you, yet you view cheese in general to be contemptible. I agree with ggzerg that you are indeed contradicting yourself.
if cheese was not viable, then bw would transcend into an endless cycle of greed, which is not evident in the pro scene these days, so i think cheese is still viable. I see progamers dying to attacks at unexpected timings all the time.
also, welcome back satanik!
edit: in the time it took me to write this people have already added replies that make my post unnecessary. take it as you will
Its hardly cheese dude. its a reactionary allin. when a terran goes 1 rax FE they're essentially saying "play a macro game at a deficit or kill me now with proxy gates or 2 gate reaver". If i went into the game and did a 2 gate zealot into 4 gate, that is cheese. i go in with the intention of doing something that loses to a wall. In my games i go in with the intention of doing a 1 gate FE and on the off chance my opponent decides he wants to 1 rax FE i respond accordingly depending on how good he is (if he's bad i'll accept the deficit). Just because progamers dont use it doesn't mean that its not effective at a C rank level that i play in(same with 12 nex).
If a terran bunker rushes me after i 12 nex, i dont consider that cheese, i consider it a reactionary allin(depending on the # of scv's pulled). same thing. standard fucking play
If a terran bunker rushes me after i 12 nex, i dont consider that cheese, i consider it a reactionary allin(depending on the # of scv's pulled). same thing. standard fucking play
Sorry, I was unaware that "Reactionary All-in's" are the same as " Standard fucking play" , My bad.
Also we are debating the legitimacy of builds, why do you always get so angry and curse in you're posts Kiante? Sorry but that is really lame of you.
On October 14 2011 13:30 [DT] wrote: A good macro player on defense always wins vs a good cheese.
thats just straight up untrue. go watch stork vs flash on bloody ridge where stork gas stole into 4 gate (note: this is cheese, you go in with the intention of doing the allin) and beat him easily. cant think of a better macro player than flash and he was being defensive because of the gas steal.
lol Kiante you are always so rude for no reason, maybe it is due to the fact of how our games went, they were pretty much cheese fests, actually I take that back, they were reactionary all ins due to your 12 nexus build. I guess you still are full of angst there buddy. Take a breather.
On October 14 2011 13:56 GGzerG wrote: lol Kiante you are always so rude for no reason, maybe it is due to the fact of how our games went, they were pretty much cheese fests, actually I take that back, they were reactionary all ins due to your 12 nexus build. I guess you still are full of angst there buddy. Take a breather.
LOL. what part of reactionary dont you understand. blind countering is risky. i'm not the one full of angst here, you're the one acting like a bitch
On October 14 2011 14:01 FyRe_DragOn wrote: you dont have to play a macro game at a deficit if the terran goes 1rax cc, there are macro counters as well.
imo the word cheese has lost its meaning through pointless debate about its exact definition.
what are they exactly? even if i cut goons and expand after 1 the terran is ahead of me. if i take a super fast third i'm insta-dead to a 4 fac and theres no realistic way to stop a terran scouting a super faster third, they'll scan it or slip a speed vulture out to see it in time.
On October 14 2011 06:56 Kiante wrote: a good macro player will block your silly cheese and you'll get stalled at some point. Would be good to see the account you're "going up the ladder" on. But, do you really think you'll improve cheesing? You basically toss a coin and pray they dont scout/are prepared for whatever you're doing
On October 14 2011 09:30 Kiante wrote: thats not cheese. Thats just proper countering of your build order. go listen to the nony interview from TSL2
You just TOTALLY contradicted ALL of you're previous posts with this post, I hope you go back and read everything you wrote. Because after that, all of you're previous posts make literally NO sense. and also, 4gate zeal PvT? rofl please.
not at all. 4 gate vs a 1 rax fe is a standard transition from a 1 gate core opening for protoss. Even if i dont kill the terran with it i'll kill a shit ton of scv's and expand behind it. sure i lose a few proxied gates, but honestly its only failed once and i still won the game.
I strongly disagree, 4gate is not standard at all or we would see progamers doing it all the time. Even if you kill many scvs, the terran still has two ccs that can rebuild scvs twice as fast as you. You cant expand behind this build until your aggression is over, and you cut tons of probes while setting up and attacking. In nonys interview i remember he stated that it seemed good but he didnt see progamers doing it so maybe theyd already found a counter to it, and was hoping that idra had not had such experience already, so obviously he was not secure in any knowledge of his build being a flawless counter.
it seems you have found a variety of "cheese" to be effective for you, yet you view cheese in general to be contemptible. I agree with ggzerg that you are indeed contradicting yourself.
if cheese was not viable, then bw would transcend into an endless cycle of greed, which is not evident in the pro scene these days, so i think cheese is still viable. I see progamers dying to attacks at unexpected timings all the time.
also, welcome back satanik!
edit: in the time it took me to write this people have already added replies that make my post unnecessary. take it as you will
Its hardly cheese dude. its a reactionary allin. when a terran goes 1 rax FE they're essentially saying "play a macro game at a deficit or kill me now with proxy gates or 2 gate reaver". If i went into the game and did a 2 gate zealot into 4 gate, that is cheese. i go in with the intention of doing something that loses to a wall. In my games i go in with the intention of doing a 1 gate FE and on the off chance my opponent decides he wants to 1 rax FE i respond accordingly depending on how good he is (if he's bad i'll accept the deficit). Just because progamers dont use it doesn't mean that its not effective at a C rank level that i play in(same with 12 nex).
If a terran bunker rushes me after i 12 nex, i dont consider that cheese, i consider it a reactionary allin(depending on the # of scv's pulled). same thing. standard fucking play
Okaaay, but I still don't see the discernible difference between what satanik is saying and what you're saying. He's essentially saying that current iCCup builds are super greedy aka
"play a macro game at a deficit or kill me now with proxy gates or 2 gate reaver".
and so he has a reactionary build to exploit it. Just like your 4 gate proxy. Which is exactly what you're saying. So what exactly are you arguing? The only issue is that the word cheese get's thrown around too often.
he's saying, go into the game with the explicit purpose to play a cheesy build to kill someone playing a standard macro game. my 3 proxy gates simply punish a terran doing what is essentially an economic cheese
On October 14 2011 13:56 GGzerG wrote: lol Kiante you are always so rude for no reason, maybe it is due to the fact of how our games went, they were pretty much cheese fests, actually I take that back, they were reactionary all ins due to your 12 nexus build. I guess you still are full of angst there buddy. Take a breather.
LOL. what part of reactionary dont you understand. blind countering is risky. i'm not the one full of angst here, you're the one acting like a bitch
Acting like a bitch? Kiante you always act so tough in the forums lol so pathetic, I hope that one day soon a "Grudge match" thread pops up in the BW Forums, and I would love it if it was Me vs You in the first grudge match, so I can make you eat every single word you say. Bassically if we play again I am going to make you my ________ . Fill in the blank Kiante, I think you are smart enough to figure out what word should be there. I would love to further our record, just let me know.
Who cares if its cheese or not? I say just play the fucking game and say gg when u die. Learn to scout, learn to anticipate everything and learn to respect a gamble play. Just dont start the "Im better than you, noob, you can only win with luck cheeser" BS and take the loss like a man.
On October 14 2011 14:44 sataNik[pG] wrote: Who cares if its cheese or not? I say just play the fucking game and say gg when u die. Learn to scout, learn to anticipate everything and learn to respect a gamble play. Just dont start the "Im better than you, noob, you can only win with luck cheeser" BS and take the loss like a man.
agree 100%
@kiante watch like any recent pvt pro game where the terran 18ccs, the most common one is a variation of 4goons > expand > robo > expand
On October 14 2011 13:15 gzo wrote: Hello, I'm not sure who you are (as i've only recently began following Brood War), but seeing as how popular you are, you should start streaming. I'm sure many people, including myself, would enjoy watching, and you should be able to get featured relatively easily.
I made some tests for streaming but it seems my pc lags hard. I got single core K8, 2GB ram on win XP, dunno if its just inadequate hardware or it was some other kind of problem. Btw which is the most light way to stream? I tried camtasia + flash media encoder
On October 14 2011 06:56 Kiante wrote: a good macro player will block your silly cheese and you'll get stalled at some point. Would be good to see the account you're "going up the ladder" on. But, do you really think you'll improve cheesing? You basically toss a coin and pray they dont scout/are prepared for whatever you're doing
On October 14 2011 09:30 Kiante wrote: thats not cheese. Thats just proper countering of your build order. go listen to the nony interview from TSL2
You just TOTALLY contradicted ALL of you're previous posts with this post, I hope you go back and read everything you wrote. Because after that, all of you're previous posts make literally NO sense. and also, 4gate zeal PvT? rofl please.
not at all. 4 gate vs a 1 rax fe is a standard transition from a 1 gate core opening for protoss. Even if i dont kill the terran with it i'll kill a shit ton of scv's and expand behind it. sure i lose a few proxied gates, but honestly its only failed once and i still won the game.
LOL? Says who? , 4gate is never standard in any matchup, in any situation, ESPECIALLY PvT, even if they 1rax FE it doesn't matter, you are better off just 2gate zeal into 2gate goon while expanding than doing some ridiculous 4gate vs 1rax FE........That is just .....I don't even have the word for it but it sure as hell isn't standard. What are you smoking Kiante? Share plz
EDIT : The only time I could ever see where that would be sensationally viable is on BlueStorm if they DON'T wall off, and if they do u just lose, or in PvP if you are forced to 4gate for some strange reason (It can happen)
Nony, thats who and he is right, it's a near sure win.
On October 14 2011 14:44 sataNik[pG] wrote: Who cares if its cheese or not? I say just play the fucking game and say gg when u die. Learn to scout, learn to anticipate everything and learn to respect a gamble play. Just dont start the "Im better than you, noob, you can only win with luck cheeser" BS and take the loss like a man.
never said i was better than you. i have no doubt you would easily crush me if we played, i'm terrible. thats irrelevant. i never said you can only win with cheese either. I'm just saying, you dont get better if u just cheese exclusively on ladder, and man up and take the abuse when you go ahead and gamble instead of using skill to win a game. I'm sure you have the skills there, but you specifically choose not to use them is what i'm getting from what you're saying.
agree 100%
@kiante watch like any recent pvt pro game where the terran 18ccs, the most common one is a variation of 4goons > expand > robo > expand
Yep, a progamer with progamer reaver control can do that, when i use reavers they just die to tanks and i look silly.
On October 14 2011 13:15 gzo wrote: Hello, I'm not sure who you are (as i've only recently began following Brood War), but seeing as how popular you are, you should start streaming. I'm sure many people, including myself, would enjoy watching, and you should be able to get featured relatively easily.
I made some tests for streaming but it seems my pc lags hard. I got single core K8, 2GB ram on win XP, dunno if its just inadequate hardware or it was some other kind of problem. Btw which is the most light way to stream? I tried camtasia + flash media encoder
camtasia + fmle is the most hardware efficient way to stream. if your pc is lagging while trying that setup, xsplit + windowed mode wont be any better. maybe try a reformat or something?
On October 14 2011 14:44 sataNik[pG] wrote: Who cares if its cheese or not? I say just play the fucking game and say gg when u die. Learn to scout, learn to anticipate everything and learn to respect a gamble play. Just dont start the "Im better than you, noob, you can only win with luck cheeser" BS and take the loss like a man.
never said i was better than you. i have no doubt you would easily crush me if we played, i'm terrible. thats irrelevant. i never said you can only win with cheese either. I'm just saying, you dont get better if u just cheese exclusively on ladder, and man up and take the abuse when you go ahead and gamble instead of using skill to win a game. I'm sure you have the skills there, but you specifically choose not to use them is what i'm getting from what you're saying.
LOL 10 years later and we're still crying over cheese.
Cheese games are the best games TBH. They're both exciting from a spectator and from a player's perspective since you honestly have no idea what's gonna happen next, everything's balanced on a razor's edge in a finely tuned cheese vs. a calm and collected opponent.
People should cheese more.
Satanik had baller builds. Fun/famous/popular game by Satanik for those of you who haven't seen it before:
At the beginning of this game i had a bad feeling, haunting for the rest of the game. It seemed to me that i couldn't win no matter how big advantage i had. This was game 1 for a tot vs play.it cw. After this shocking loss i pick r-point, my favorite tvz map and i 8 rax bunker his 12 hat. For 3rd game he is stubborn and picks r-point again! He 12 hatches again and i 8 rax, again with success. He is kinda upset and goes like: "these games are no fun". And my reply: "game 1 was fun enough, now i need the win for my team, sorry" He then goes on to post this game, for compensation i guess, although at that time it was inappropriate to leak replays without asking for approval. Was fun times though...
On October 14 2011 08:58 2Pacalypse- wrote: Holy shit it's Satanik! <3 old school BWers, especially when they come back to playing BW
I sorta agree. A fine tuned, well prepared cheese is so awesome to watch and I agree that players on ICCup should play more "strategically" every now and then instead of solely working on their mechanics. But I also think that it's more fun to do these kind of things when you're playing against a same opponent for a lot of games, instead of random players on ladder. This way you can see each game how your opponent reacts and adapts to your "strategies".
Yeah I agree with this. If you cheese every ladder opponent, you are rolling the dice with respect to the greed>cautious>cheese>greed dynamic. The better overall player, in my opinion, will win more often if both players play a macro game and forgo the RPS. If you are selecting a particular cheese vs a particular opponent then this in my eyes is much more skillful.
Mind you that if I am cheesing almost every ladder its not because im in love with cheese, its only because i abuse the current trend of greed. When caution was the trend i was the one to greed. That was often the case when i had a cheesy image and people were too cautious when playing vs me.
As for now, there is nothing that i can do better than to punish cheese with cautious play. When cheese gets me, i really give kudos to the guy. Because he is clever and he tricked me.
Dont get me wrong, I surely respect the skill of dumb macro spamming to victory but there are other things in bw too.
What im doing here is simply pointing out the ill concept that cheese is something low, or else i cant explain the all too common negativity and lack of manner after short games.
If there is a trend of greed then you are doing nothing wrong, I'd only take issue if the games were split between greed and caution because then you'd be flipping a coin.
I still am of the opinion that cheese is a lower skill than late game and macro ability. If I looked at the best cheeser in the world and a macro player with comparative skill, I would say the macro player was the better player (impossible to objectively measure skill in this instance). This is because I think a macro player will win more games than a cheese player, because the skillset of a macro player is much wider than the skillset required to be a good cheese player.
On October 14 2011 08:58 2Pacalypse- wrote: Holy shit it's Satanik! <3 old school BWers, especially when they come back to playing BW
I sorta agree. A fine tuned, well prepared cheese is so awesome to watch and I agree that players on ICCup should play more "strategically" every now and then instead of solely working on their mechanics. But I also think that it's more fun to do these kind of things when you're playing against a same opponent for a lot of games, instead of random players on ladder. This way you can see each game how your opponent reacts and adapts to your "strategies".
Yeah I agree with this. If you cheese every ladder opponent, you are rolling the dice with respect to the greed>cautious>cheese>greed dynamic. The better overall player, in my opinion, will win more often if both players play a macro game and forgo the RPS. If you are selecting a particular cheese vs a particular opponent then this in my eyes is much more skillful.
Mind you that if I am cheesing almost every ladder its not because im in love with cheese, its only because i abuse the current trend of greed. When caution was the trend i was the one to greed. That was often the case when i had a cheesy image and people were too cautious when playing vs me.
As for now, there is nothing that i can do better than to punish cheese with cautious play. When cheese gets me, i really give kudos to the guy. Because he is clever and he tricked me.
Dont get me wrong, I surely respect the skill of dumb macro spamming to victory but there are other things in bw too.
What im doing here is simply pointing out the ill concept that cheese is something low, or else i cant explain the all too common negativity and lack of manner after short games.
If there is a trend of greed then you are doing nothing wrong, I'd only take issue if the games were split between greed and caution because then you'd be flipping a coin.
I still am of the opinion that cheese is a lower skill than late game and macro ability. If I looked at the best cheeser in the world and a macro player with comparative skill, I would say the macro player was the better player (impossible to objectively measure skill in this instance). This is because I think a macro player will win more games than a cheese player, because the skillset of a macro player is much wider than the skillset required to be a good cheese player.
Just my opinion though.
Isn't Flash the best cheeser?
As well as the unquestionable best macro player. He is incomparable.
Compare shine against best: Shine can win against very strong people when the games are decided early, but he has no real follow up after that. Best, almost the exact opposite. Doesn't have a strong early game, but macros almost as good as Flash.
On October 14 2011 08:58 2Pacalypse- wrote: Holy shit it's Satanik! <3 old school BWers, especially when they come back to playing BW
I sorta agree. A fine tuned, well prepared cheese is so awesome to watch and I agree that players on ICCup should play more "strategically" every now and then instead of solely working on their mechanics. But I also think that it's more fun to do these kind of things when you're playing against a same opponent for a lot of games, instead of random players on ladder. This way you can see each game how your opponent reacts and adapts to your "strategies".
Yeah I agree with this. If you cheese every ladder opponent, you are rolling the dice with respect to the greed>cautious>cheese>greed dynamic. The better overall player, in my opinion, will win more often if both players play a macro game and forgo the RPS. If you are selecting a particular cheese vs a particular opponent then this in my eyes is much more skillful.
Mind you that if I am cheesing almost every ladder its not because im in love with cheese, its only because i abuse the current trend of greed. When caution was the trend i was the one to greed. That was often the case when i had a cheesy image and people were too cautious when playing vs me.
As for now, there is nothing that i can do better than to punish cheese with cautious play. When cheese gets me, i really give kudos to the guy. Because he is clever and he tricked me.
Dont get me wrong, I surely respect the skill of dumb macro spamming to victory but there are other things in bw too.
What im doing here is simply pointing out the ill concept that cheese is something low, or else i cant explain the all too common negativity and lack of manner after short games.
If there is a trend of greed then you are doing nothing wrong, I'd only take issue if the games were split between greed and caution because then you'd be flipping a coin.
I still am of the opinion that cheese is a lower skill than late game and macro ability. If I looked at the best cheeser in the world and a macro player with comparative skill, I would say the macro player was the better player (impossible to objectively measure skill in this instance). This is because I think a macro player will win more games than a cheese player, because the skillset of a macro player is much wider than the skillset required to be a good cheese player.
Just my opinion though.
Isn't Flash the best cheeser?
As well as the unquestionable best macro player. He is incomparable.
Compare shine against best: Shine can win against very strong people when the games are decided early, but he has no real follow up after that. Best, almost the exact opposite. Doesn't have a strong early game, but macros almost as good as Flash.
Yeah it was a rhetorical question, since Flash is both the best cheeser and the best macro player lol.
On October 14 2011 15:40 Burned Toast wrote: You should definetely set up a stream or throw down a Cheese Fest some day! I'm sure I would'nt be the only one enjoying 3 hours or pure cheese...
On September 28 2010 05:46 Ver wrote: SC mapped out? Few innovators/innovations? Are we watching the same games here? The late 2009/2010 season has been one of the most innovative years ever! There's a large amount of exploring left in many of these systems.
For Terran alone (listing general systems, not the absurd amount of variations):
TvZ- Safe 14cc on 2 player maps a dozen different variations of bio -> mech and vice versa with a lot more room for further exploration (this is huge!) Flexible Valkyrie first openings that can transition into many different possibilities A totally new approach vs 2 hatch muta with aggressive marine pushes (changes a lot) 7 Rax (and overlord snipes from it) 4 rax -> triple port wraith 2 rax acad allins 3rd denial vs 3 hatch muta (very unexplored and complex) 2 base allin vs crazy zerg (3 hatch muta to ultra) Revolutionary lategame defense based off of aggressive vessel raids, covering infantry, and massed tanks (probably the biggest change in years along with bio-mech transitions) 12pool Lair with a very different and expansive early/midgame Improvements on overall mech play (several new midgame options) Heavy and consistent Vulture/Valkyrie!? (totally unexplored)
TvP- Many different 3 base timings Many variations in the 2 fact after cc system both from siege expand and from FD 12 Nexus variations and emphasis 1 fact mine double expand in response to 12 Nexus New midgame Carrier transition ideas both before and after arbiters Rax Expand!! (a huge system with tons more exploration but right now there are many variations already)
As long as the pro scene stays alive in courts BW is fine. SC2 is just new (and getting many temporary tournies/players because of this) and people need a break from BW. Give half a year/year and things should be looking better.
Unless I missed I skimmed these links incorrectly I don't see this triple port wraith build this guy is talking about. Anyone know what match that was?
I remember a game between classic and zero involving that (on Grand Line I THINK)
On September 28 2010 05:46 Ver wrote: SC mapped out? Few innovators/innovations? Are we watching the same games here? The late 2009/2010 season has been one of the most innovative years ever! There's a large amount of exploring left in many of these systems.
For Terran alone (listing general systems, not the absurd amount of variations):
TvZ- Safe 14cc on 2 player maps a dozen different variations of bio -> mech and vice versa with a lot more room for further exploration (this is huge!) Flexible Valkyrie first openings that can transition into many different possibilities A totally new approach vs 2 hatch muta with aggressive marine pushes (changes a lot) 7 Rax (and overlord snipes from it) 4 rax -> triple port wraith 2 rax acad allins 3rd denial vs 3 hatch muta (very unexplored and complex) 2 base allin vs crazy zerg (3 hatch muta to ultra) Revolutionary lategame defense based off of aggressive vessel raids, covering infantry, and massed tanks (probably the biggest change in years along with bio-mech transitions) 12pool Lair with a very different and expansive early/midgame Improvements on overall mech play (several new midgame options) Heavy and consistent Vulture/Valkyrie!? (totally unexplored)
TvP- Many different 3 base timings Many variations in the 2 fact after cc system both from siege expand and from FD 12 Nexus variations and emphasis 1 fact mine double expand in response to 12 Nexus New midgame Carrier transition ideas both before and after arbiters Rax Expand!! (a huge system with tons more exploration but right now there are many variations already)
As long as the pro scene stays alive in courts BW is fine. SC2 is just new (and getting many temporary tournies/players because of this) and people need a break from BW. Give half a year/year and things should be looking better.
Unless I missed I skimmed these links incorrectly I don't see this triple port wraith build this guy is talking about. Anyone know what match that was?
hiya vs free on triathlon
oh my bad the tvz one, yeah i dunno sorry D: sounds like an upmagic game tho
No need to feel sorry. Three port wraith being used in PvT as a referrence is awesome. Never thought anyone had the balls to do that.
Ok, I haven't read through all of the pages but I will basically translate the message Satanik is trying to put out there.
He's not encouraging you to cheese every game, he's encouraging you to be more innovative. Winning against foreigners/westerners is relatively easy simply because everybody has the same builds/timings/counters. In other words, if you change or refine your builds you will become a more unpredictable player leaving your opponent oblivious on how to react. Satanik wins his games from unpredictability (uncommon strategies) and has shown that unpredictability doesn't need high apm. The more unpredictable you are, the more your opponent will panic and make mistakes, overspend, or simply prepare for something that isn't coming thus giving you an advantage. However, unpredictability can also be reached by denying scouting. But, even if you deny scouting and your opponent is familiar with any of the "common" builds he will most likely counter it.
Here's a game I encourage all players to watch when it comes to the word I haven't stressed enough "unpredictability".
Flash vs Effort
Flash clearly prepared for something that wasn't coming (lurkers).
haha, I love Satanik for his ZvZ, really glad to see him back. If I had to make a top 10 of the best foreign ZvZ ever, his epic 50 minutes ZvZ against Xiaozi would be #1, and his game against Lowely would be #2 + Show Spoiler +
amazing comeback from Satanik where he gathers a critical mass of upgraded hydras which destroys muta-lings
edit : the second game I mention is clearly showing he masters unconventional play :D
On October 14 2011 14:44 sataNik[pG] wrote: Who cares if its cheese or not? I say just play the fucking game and say gg when u die. Learn to scout, learn to anticipate everything and learn to respect a gamble play. Just dont start the "Im better than you, noob, you can only win with luck cheeser" BS and take the loss like a man.
never said i was better than you. i have no doubt you would easily crush me if we played, i'm terrible. thats irrelevant. i never said you can only win with cheese either. I'm just saying, you dont get better if u just cheese exclusively on ladder, and man up and take the abuse when you go ahead and gamble instead of using skill to win a game. I'm sure you have the skills there, but you specifically choose not to use them is what i'm getting from what you're saying.
taking risks is part of life, man up and get used to it.
On October 14 2011 18:20 endy wrote: haha, I love Satanik for his ZvZ, really glad to see him back. If I had to make a top 10 of the best foreign ZvZ ever, his epic 50 minutes ZvZ against Xiaozi would be #1, and his game against Lowely would be #2 + Show Spoiler +
amazing comeback from Satanik where he gathers a critical mass of upgraded hydras which destroys muta-lings
edit : the second game I mention is clearly showing he masters unconventional play :D
TBH, I feel as if cheeses have a lower skill ceiling; as they happen in early game, they get solved at earlier levels. As in, the dynamics of greed-cautious-aggressive play are switched later in game the higher the skill level goes. My personal feeling is that most of the unorthodox aggresion currently switched to mid game; it still exists, but just in a different time place. As far as openings go, I feel that if I commit to an old school aggressive opening against an opponent that is considerably worse than me, but still good enough, he will be in a commanding position in case he opened cautiously. If he opened greedily, I'll probably kill anyone but someone vastly superior right away; if he also opened aggresively, our skill difference is the most important. An example would be having B+ player cheesing every game and eventually losing to a C+ guy who knew how to decisevely handle this particular opening.
Now, if I open cautiously, I will always beat aggressive openings(unless I screw up something hardcore), and if I'm better than my opponent, I will catch up to greed as mid game goes on. Actually, simply surviving to late game is usually enough to handle inferior opponent, since his macro will start to slip earlier than mine, and a single wave of lacking units is enough to win a battle or at least take an expansion uncontested. Let alone all the harrass opportunities to make your opponent sweat.
If I was top tier korean pro, I'd certainly need to play aggressive a good amount of time in order to not get behind in metagame, specially as at a high level safe-greedy dynamics are also getting solved(specially PvP, imo, where build order advantages lately have been nearly insurmountable). But I'm not. I'm not even A ranked; I still have room to grow in safe/greedy dinamics, and they improve my skillsets more, at least when I'm on ladder. Also, it's a pride thing. Not satisfied with winning 60% of the time, although I'd be happy about it in poker heads up. BW, there's still plenty room to get soo good you'd win 80%+ iccup games at highest ranks opening the same cautious style every game. Maybe it's just a matter of preference. When I feel like it, I still have plenty of aggressive/greedy follow-ups for 2 base play, although my 1base play is usually defensive/scouting oriented. (For example, PvZ after FE there's like 10 allins\semi allins\solid timing pushes that you can pull off; and I like each one of them more than they 1base alternatives. Map dependant, of course)
On October 14 2011 20:50 Qeet wrote: just play the game how you want and dont bitch about other peoples play, goes for satanik as well
lol straight to the point but well said.
Anyway for all of those who do "bitch" about peoples play, if your so "gosu" and they're so "newb" then you wouldn't have lost to their cheese in the first place. In other words, we don't care about how frustrated you are about your loss. Man up, show sportsmanship, GG, and move on.
A loss is a lesson learned and if you didn't learn a lesson from your loss then it's nobodies fault but your own.
On October 14 2011 20:50 Qeet wrote: just play the game how you want and dont bitch about other peoples play, goes for satanik as well
lol straight to the point but well said.
Anyway for all of those who do "bitch" about peoples play, if your so "gosu" and they're so "newb" then you wouldn't have lost to their cheese in the first place. In other words, we don't care about how frustrated you are about your loss. Man up, show sportsmanship, GG, and move on.
A loss is a lesson learned and if you didn't learn a lesson from your loss then it's nobodies fault but your own.
OP is encouraging people to cheese/play differently, not complaining about it.
On October 14 2011 08:58 2Pacalypse- wrote: Holy shit it's Satanik! <3 old school BWers, especially when they come back to playing BW
I sorta agree. A fine tuned, well prepared cheese is so awesome to watch and I agree that players on ICCup should play more "strategically" every now and then instead of solely working on their mechanics. But I also think that it's more fun to do these kind of things when you're playing against a same opponent for a lot of games, instead of random players on ladder. This way you can see each game how your opponent reacts and adapts to your "strategies".
Yeah I agree with this. If you cheese every ladder opponent, you are rolling the dice with respect to the greed>cautious>cheese>greed dynamic. The better overall player, in my opinion, will win more often if both players play a macro game and forgo the RPS. If you are selecting a particular cheese vs a particular opponent then this in my eyes is much more skillful.
Mind you that if I am cheesing almost every ladder its not because im in love with cheese, its only because i abuse the current trend of greed. When caution was the trend i was the one to greed. That was often the case when i had a cheesy image and people were too cautious when playing vs me.
As for now, there is nothing that i can do better than to punish cheese with cautious play. When cheese gets me, i really give kudos to the guy. Because he is clever and he tricked me.
Dont get me wrong, I surely respect the skill of dumb macro spamming to victory but there are other things in bw too.
What im doing here is simply pointing out the ill concept that cheese is something low, or else i cant explain the all too common negativity and lack of manner after short games.
If there is a trend of greed then you are doing nothing wrong, I'd only take issue if the games were split between greed and caution because then you'd be flipping a coin.
I still am of the opinion that cheese is a lower skill than late game and macro ability. If I looked at the best cheeser in the world and a macro player with comparative skill, I would say the macro player was the better player (impossible to objectively measure skill in this instance). This is because I think a macro player will win more games than a cheese player, because the skillset of a macro player is much wider than the skillset required to be a good cheese player.
Just my opinion though.
Isn't Flash the best cheeser?
That's partly my point. I honestly don't think Flash could become such a great cheeser without his late game ability, because late game ability requires great decision making and multitasking, among other things, which is required in a good cheese.
There's a way of thinking, I think especially in foreign BW but I might be wrong, that macro is more skillful than cheese. I think the reason for that is because new players are told to work on their mechanics, and the best way to do that is take it to the late game. It's the quickest way to get good at the game. That's a huge reason why cheese is looked down upon (I look down upon it in some respects) because it doesn't help you improve anything but a very thin slice of skillsets.
If you practice late game and macro, you become a player with great mechanics and decision making.
If you practice cheese, you become good at mainly cheese.
the thing is with cheese, it might help our make your game harder. the reason why they dont do any 1base in pvz anymore cuzz they know what to do and it might help you 1 game but afther that game it wont help anymore,
cheese is yust a big mind game going on or a win cuzz the opponent hasnt any knollage to stop that cheese. (i inculde being to greedy with mindgame's incace you wonder)
the most commonly openers are safe and give you a good spot without taking risk. for example, 1base reaver vs t, it can do alot of dmg, but if not your in a shitty possion. so you count on your opponent being bad with macro, possioning or dissionmaking, instead of going for a "safe" win.
My 2 Cents on it: Practicing cheese when your not a pro is useless and makes you a noob. Why would you waste your time cheesing on the ladder when want to improve? Okay maybe you're fi e staying in D- (lol)...in that case cheese to your hearts content.
You'll never win anything if you can't win a standard game. So L2P then learn to cheese. Cheesing at the pro level is a mind game. On the ladder you dont know who youre playing against so unless you can beat anyone in a macro game stop cheesing and start learning... Not like anything isn't figured out anyways
So, I loved this thread until page 5. Going to keep reading it, but like flamewheel said, y'all calm down.
Take it to PMs if need be or host a streaming grudge match for the fans. Just quit shitting this thread up over the minute differences between early all-ins and cheese.
Also, I hate the word cheese. 4 pool is cheese, blind 2 gate proxy is cheese (especially in base) everything else is good play.
On October 14 2011 12:50 Kiante wrote: I'm saying I don't go into the game going, gonna 4 gate, I simply play for a macro game and do the allin if the situation forces me too. Also I never said I don't cheese, I said cheesing exclusively in a ladder doesn't help you improve.
i think that you missed satanik's point...
satanik is saying that he also does "reactionary all ins" if the game calls for it
but people call it cheese
he is just complaining that people call smart play cheese when others just play one dimensional and are making up excuses for losses
I've played against that exact build on iccup. Proxy gateway inside main into DT rush. I had proper turret timings, but since it was a proxy, they were about 10 seconds late. I was able to defend it without many losses, but my macro slipped so much that I lost to the following dragoon attack. I see a lot of attempts at gateway or cannon inside main, but usually I scout it in time.
I don't agree at all that iccup players play standard. I think it's the opposite. I've seen everything from 1 hatch lurkers to fake lair+hydra den into regular 3 hatch muta. (this build hides the spire and abuses the fact that you can't afford to waste scans when you're expecting lurkers)
satanik, I admired your hydra zvz style a lot from way back when. If your are disappointed by iCCup today, I have to say you should try Fish or something, because iCCup is exactly as you say.
I would love it if you'd upload a replay pack of yourself and your innovative strategies. Not because I want proof or anything, but because I love to watch your play and want to see what you do these days.
I think of myself as a pretty innovative player. When you learn this game from playing the same people over and over again, you really need to have a large set of strategies to keep from being easily predicted. Sometimes when you play someone new and they bitch you out for doing something strange (win or lose), it's very discouraging. But that's not something that has changed much. Maybe it is more common because Idra got famous, but there were always people who think you're a noob if you try anything interesting or new.
I think one reason for people disliking cheese is that oftentimes it's boring to watch. Yes, there are those rare and tense moments but how often have we seen a Zerg just roll over and die after a bunker rush? Yes, it's because they didn't scout right or fast enough or weren't prepared or just miscmicroed. But it still is kinda boring. (And don't you dare link that match Light vs Tempest!)
it's cheese if you didn't invent it imo. goes for all bisu builds and flash timing attacks most of you cheese haters just copy off every pro gamer you see because of the lack of confidence in your own builds. its like saying some MMA fighter cheesed when he KOed someone better than him because he let down his guard. in every competitive arena, adapt or die.
On October 14 2011 08:58 2Pacalypse- wrote: Holy shit it's Satanik! <3 old school BWers, especially when they come back to playing BW
I sorta agree. A fine tuned, well prepared cheese is so awesome to watch and I agree that players on ICCup should play more "strategically" every now and then instead of solely working on their mechanics. But I also think that it's more fun to do these kind of things when you're playing against a same opponent for a lot of games, instead of random players on ladder. This way you can see each game how your opponent reacts and adapts to your "strategies".
Yeah I agree with this. If you cheese every ladder opponent, you are rolling the dice with respect to the greed>cautious>cheese>greed dynamic. The better overall player, in my opinion, will win more often if both players play a macro game and forgo the RPS. If you are selecting a particular cheese vs a particular opponent then this in my eyes is much more skillful.
Mind you that if I am cheesing almost every ladder its not because im in love with cheese, its only because i abuse the current trend of greed. When caution was the trend i was the one to greed. That was often the case when i had a cheesy image and people were too cautious when playing vs me.
As for now, there is nothing that i can do better than to punish cheese with cautious play. When cheese gets me, i really give kudos to the guy. Because he is clever and he tricked me.
Dont get me wrong, I surely respect the skill of dumb macro spamming to victory but there are other things in bw too.
What im doing here is simply pointing out the ill concept that cheese is something low, or else i cant explain the all too common negativity and lack of manner after short games.
If there is a trend of greed then you are doing nothing wrong, I'd only take issue if the games were split between greed and caution because then you'd be flipping a coin.
I still am of the opinion that cheese is a lower skill than late game and macro ability. If I looked at the best cheeser in the world and a macro player with comparative skill, I would say the macro player was the better player (impossible to objectively measure skill in this instance). This is because I think a macro player will win more games than a cheese player, because the skillset of a macro player is much wider than the skillset required to be a good cheese player.
Just my opinion though.
Isn't Flash the best cheeser?
That's partly my point. I honestly don't think Flash could become such a great cheeser without his late game ability, because late game ability requires great decision making and multitasking, among other things, which is required in a good cheese.
There's a way of thinking, I think especially in foreign BW but I might be wrong, that macro is more skillful than cheese. I think the reason for that is because new players are told to work on their mechanics, and the best way to do that is take it to the late game. It's the quickest way to get good at the game. That's a huge reason why cheese is looked down upon (I look down upon it in some respects) because it doesn't help you improve anything but a very thin slice of skillsets.
If you practice late game and macro, you become a player with great mechanics and decision making.
If you practice cheese, you become good at mainly cheese.
Well of course, the reason he's the best cheeser is not because of how he executes the cheese itself, which any pro could probably match, but because of which type of cheese he uses and when.
This is the idea Satanik was conveying as well. Cheese based upon a coin flip is not so skillful. Cheese that is designed to exploit a scouted weakness in your opponent is, and should not be looked down upon.
My take: People cheese less because cheese builds are typically weaker builds. Defenders advantage means a lot. Whilst not entirely weak, having a weaker build will lose you a starcraft game. Especially some of the querky builds sataNik mentioned! Of course you will probably do well with them because people are not used to these builds.
For example, the 6 fact off 2 base BO. Factories are 200/100 for goodness sake! Gate ways are cheaper, build faster, dont need machine shops and dont waste mining time whilst they build. If you drop 6 facts that I can stop for much less investment in production, I already have a free advantage. Then then terran has to attack, before upgrades and before mass.... the two good things about terran mech! It is simply a weaker build order than the standard ones today.
It is good to see that iccup players are plaing straight! Learning cheese gives you a build that will beat a small subset of builds. much better to work on standard play that you can use versus anything. Weaker players should be focusing on the basis not the flashy.
The benefit of cheese is really for boX play as any poker player will know. however I do think this is best left till the higher levels. At the higher levels cheese has its place. Once you have the fundamentals. I'm a b- player and Im certain that improving my macro will net me more games than learning some cheesy skills.
Also cheese does get the reputation (rightly so!) of being nooby, because as a noob its so much easier to win via cheese than a straight up game. Noobs are more likely to lose straight up and just don't understand how to punish failed cheese. However 1000 games down the line the cheesy noob will still be bad whereas the macro noob will crush him at every encounter.
Finally I think sataNik misses some of the point. The strategy variation just comes later in the game. Instead of 2 base>6fact we now have 3 base>10 fact etc. This is just a product of better knowledge. Sure non-progamers will not exactly have the necessary skills to be doing such unsafe macro builds they are doing, but what can we expect? People not to copy the builds they see progamers using as the 'best'?
Also this is forgetting that lategame is exciting. Big army movements are more pleasing to me than 10v10 units. Good tactics, strategy, control and scouting are nicer to see late game
TBH, I feel as if cheeses have a lower skill ceiling; as they happen in early game, they get solved at earlier levels. As in, the dynamics of greed-cautious-aggressive play are switched later in game the higher the skill level goes. My personal feeling is that most of the unorthodox aggresion currently switched to mid game; it still exists, but just in a different time place. As far as openings go, I feel that if I commit to an old school aggressive opening against an opponent that is considerably worse than me, but still good enough, he will be in a commanding position in case he opened cautiously. If he opened greedily, I'll probably kill anyone but someone vastly superior right away; if he also opened aggresively, our skill difference is the most important. An example would be having B+ player cheesing every game and eventually losing to a C+ guy who knew how to decisevely handle this particular opening.
Now, if I open cautiously, I will always beat aggressive openings(unless I screw up something hardcore), and if I'm better than my opponent, I will catch up to greed as mid game goes on. Actually, simply surviving to late game is usually enough to handle inferior opponent, since his macro will start to slip earlier than mine, and a single wave of lacking units is enough to win a battle or at least take an expansion uncontested. Let alone all the harrass opportunities to make your opponent sweat.
If I was top tier korean pro, I'd certainly need to play aggressive a good amount of time in order to not get behind in metagame, specially as at a high level safe-greedy dynamics are also getting solved(specially PvP, imo, where build order advantages lately have been nearly insurmountable). But I'm not. I'm not even A ranked; I still have room to grow in safe/greedy dinamics, and they improve my skillsets more, at least when I'm on ladder. Also, it's a pride thing. Not satisfied with winning 60% of the time, although I'd be happy about it in poker heads up. BW, there's still plenty room to get soo good you'd win 80%+ iccup games at highest ranks opening the same cautious style every game. Maybe it's just a matter of preference. When I feel like it, I still have plenty of aggressive/greedy follow-ups for 2 base play, although my 1base play is usually defensive/scouting oriented. (For example, PvZ after FE there's like 10 allins\semi allins\solid timing pushes that you can pull off; and I like each one of them more than they 1base alternatives. Map dependant, of course)
On October 14 2011 08:58 2Pacalypse- wrote: Holy shit it's Satanik! <3 old school BWers, especially when they come back to playing BW
I sorta agree. A fine tuned, well prepared cheese is so awesome to watch and I agree that players on ICCup should play more "strategically" every now and then instead of solely working on their mechanics. But I also think that it's more fun to do these kind of things when you're playing against a same opponent for a lot of games, instead of random players on ladder. This way you can see each game how your opponent reacts and adapts to your "strategies".
Yeah I agree with this. If you cheese every ladder opponent, you are rolling the dice with respect to the greed>cautious>cheese>greed dynamic. The better overall player, in my opinion, will win more often if both players play a macro game and forgo the RPS. If you are selecting a particular cheese vs a particular opponent then this in my eyes is much more skillful.
Mind you that if I am cheesing almost every ladder its not because im in love with cheese, its only because i abuse the current trend of greed. When caution was the trend i was the one to greed. That was often the case when i had a cheesy image and people were too cautious when playing vs me.
As for now, there is nothing that i can do better than to punish cheese with cautious play. When cheese gets me, i really give kudos to the guy. Because he is clever and he tricked me.
Dont get me wrong, I surely respect the skill of dumb macro spamming to victory but there are other things in bw too.
What im doing here is simply pointing out the ill concept that cheese is something low, or else i cant explain the all too common negativity and lack of manner after short games.
If there is a trend of greed then you are doing nothing wrong, I'd only take issue if the games were split between greed and caution because then you'd be flipping a coin.
I still am of the opinion that cheese is a lower skill than late game and macro ability. If I looked at the best cheeser in the world and a macro player with comparative skill, I would say the macro player was the better player (impossible to objectively measure skill in this instance). This is because I think a macro player will win more games than a cheese player, because the skillset of a macro player is much wider than the skillset required to be a good cheese player.
Just my opinion though.
Isn't Flash the best cheeser?
That's partly my point. I honestly don't think Flash could become such a great cheeser without his late game ability, because late game ability requires great decision making and multitasking, among other things, which is required in a good cheese.
There's a way of thinking, I think especially in foreign BW but I might be wrong, that macro is more skillful than cheese. I think the reason for that is because new players are told to work on their mechanics, and the best way to do that is take it to the late game. It's the quickest way to get good at the game. That's a huge reason why cheese is looked down upon (I look down upon it in some respects) because it doesn't help you improve anything but a very thin slice of skillsets.
If you practice late game and macro, you become a player with great mechanics and decision making.
If you practice cheese, you become good at mainly cheese.
Well of course, the reason he's the best cheeser is not because of how he executes the cheese itself, which any pro could probably match, but because of which type of cheese he uses and when.
This is the idea Satanik was conveying as well. Cheese based upon a coin flip is not so skillful. Cheese that is designed to exploit a scouted weakness in your opponent is, and should not be looked down upon.
On October 14 2011 07:08 ArvickHero wrote: It sounds like you're saying strategies are stagnant nowadays, which is definitely not the case.
Excuse me? 9/10 games pvz toss opens up with forge nexus. where are the numerous 1 base strats? or 2 gate exp? 4/5 games tvz terran goes 1 rax cc into mass m&m or mech. Where are the amazing 1 base plays: 1 rax acad fact pushes? 2 rax fact acad? or the 3 rax +1 sunk break timing? or the 2 rax m&m + dropship? or the vessel rush +1 m&m + tanks scoop? if u think these are invalid or weak strategies let me prove you wrong. almost every zerg goes for mutalisks tvz.
nuff said
If you see that as stagnation, then there's nothing to argue over. Those builds are just too safe and too strong. Blame BW's balance for those builds working out the way they do.
It's not as if people are opening forge fe variants in PvZ every game because they've forgotten how to 1gate expo or are only opening forge fe because the pros do it every game. It's just that forge fe is safer and far more flexible. Can it really be helped that the fast expand builds give you much more options and actually make it harder to guess what is going to happen afterwards? It's so much easier to play against 1base openings.
I agree that protoss needs the expansion vs zerg to play an equal game, but he can take it in so many different timings which are advantageous. Forge fe isnt the only option, perhaps its the safest option but its passive. Toss can 2 gate zeal non stop probe build with light/medium pressure into expand, which may not be as safe, but its even more advantageous. Other safe and flexible options which can expand in many different timings are the 2 gate zeal -> fast cors+leg and the 1 gate cors dt.
For TvZ however 1 base terran is a powerhouse no matter what he does. Just everything u can think of is really strong. Fast expand TvZ is far more easily manageable from the zerg side because it doesnt pressure.
On October 14 2011 07:18 Kiante wrote: So what you're saying is using unusual styles based on scouting information and assumption of your opponents build.
all i see is you trying to get an easy win rather than trying to perfect your own macro builds immune to silly cheese
Bobby fisher was often looking the chessboard from his opponents side. By trying to get an easy win when you are the aggressor u will not get a stupid loss when u are on the defensive. Because you will know the timing. Suppose you are a bad macro player with gaps in your bo. Its easier to get better by trying to find gaps in a good macro players bo and then watch how he counters it. How can you perfect your macro build if nobody crash tests it? You will just get a bad greedy style which is good only for macro vs macro.
Of course i take into account cheese. I often try to work on improving my scouting and opening BO's to properly crush lame zerg cheese. You wanna be a crash test dummy? cool, but you'd probably find much more success in a tournament setting if u didn't just cheese ladder games and wank over how good you are
I think his point is that you'd probably find much more success if you didn't just greedily try to force macro games and wank over how good you are.
On October 15 2011 06:05 sataNik[pG] wrote: I agree that protoss needs the expansion vs zerg to play an equal game, but he can take it in so many different timings which are advantageous. Forge fe isnt the only option, perhaps its the safest option but its passive. Toss can 2 gate zeal non stop probe build with light/medium pressure into expand, which may not be as safe, but its even more advantageous. Other safe and flexible options which can expand in many different timings are the 2 gate zeal -> fast cors+leg and the 1 gate cors dt.
For TvZ however 1 base terran is a powerhouse no matter what he does. Just everything u can think of is really strong. Fast expand TvZ is far more easily manageable from the zerg side because it doesnt pressure.
have you faced late mech switch and +1 5rax pressure ? it's so hard to deal with as a zerg... beatable, but you def have to work hard
sataNik i'm a big fan of yours, but the problem is obviously that you play on iccup where the skill level has dramatically fallen over the last few seasons. PS, please upload zvp replays, i always loved your style in that MU
I wouldn't consider cheesing an art. If you are playing against someone with a cheese build you have prepared and thoroughly practiced and you win it doesn't mean you're better than your opponent. It just means your opponent hasn't practiced against that particular build enough to know how to defend it. If they did, your strategy would be obsolete.
There is no way its harder to cheese than it is to learn standard play. The opponent reacts to a cheese user, making it easier to become proficient at the build. Whereas learning standard play you have to respond to your opponents numerous possible openings properly otherwise you can die to a large number of potential timings. Also, cheese users don't need the knowledge of the game or mechanical proficiencies standard players require. This is why cheesy players like Kwanro have essentially been removed from professional gaming. Eventually players learn to beat their cheeses, and the cheese users don't have the skill sets and knowledge to easily become a standard player.
I remember me being a 13 year old brat that I was cheesing my cousin who have played the game hardcore 3 years consecutively while I have only picked it up 4 month prior to the games. We played Zerg vs Terran, me being Zerg and this was my build 2 hatch Lurker drop, 2 Hatch Muta with Overlord dropping Lings @ his base, 4 Hatch Zerglings, 4 Pool and if I can remember correctly I did something like 1 Hatch Lurkers. Bottom line, cheesing is fun!
On October 15 2011 08:35 tryummm wrote: I wouldn't consider cheesing an art. If you are playing against someone with a cheese build you have prepared and thoroughly practiced and you win it doesn't mean you're better than your opponent. It just means your opponent hasn't practiced against that particular build enough to know how to defend it. If they did, your strategy would be obsolete.
There is no way its harder to cheese than it is to learn standard play. The opponent reacts to a cheese user, making it easier to become proficient at the build. Whereas learning standard play you have to respond to your opponents numerous possible openings properly otherwise you can die to a large number of potential timings. Also, cheese users don't need the knowledge of the game or mechanical proficiencies standard players require. This is why cheesy players like Kwanro have essentially been removed from professional gaming. Eventually players learn to beat their cheeses, and the cheese users don't have the skill sets and knowledge to easily become a standard player.
Kwanro retiring had nothing to do with not being able to win games. He was still doing fine up until he chose to retire. Suggesting any progamer only knows how to play cheese builds is ridiculous. Kwanro had an aggressive/cheesy playstyle but being a progamer he also could play a macro game at a top level (much better than any non-Korean).
Your first paragraph is just silly. Strategies don't become obsolete just because people practice against them. Knowing how to react to a certain situation and being able to execute the proper reaction are two very different things, especially since you have to consider your opponent's execution as well. Do you think a C+ terran could beat a 2 hatch muta all-in from Jaedong if he knows it's coming?
Besides, I think you really missed the point of the OP. He's not saying you should go 4 pool every game, he's just suggesting people should vary their builds more and not be afraid to take risks if their opponent gives them an opening.
On October 15 2011 08:35 tryummm wrote: I wouldn't consider cheesing an art. If you are playing against someone with a cheese build you have prepared and thoroughly practiced and you win it doesn't mean you're better than your opponent. It just means your opponent hasn't practiced against that particular build enough to know how to defend it. If they did, your strategy would be obsolete.
There is no way its harder to cheese than it is to learn standard play. The opponent reacts to a cheese user, making it easier to become proficient at the build. Whereas learning standard play you have to respond to your opponents numerous possible openings properly otherwise you can die to a large number of potential timings. Also, cheese users don't need the knowledge of the game or mechanical proficiencies standard players require. This is why cheesy players like Kwanro have essentially been removed from professional gaming. Eventually players learn to beat their cheeses, and the cheese users don't have the skill sets and knowledge to easily become a standard player.
Let me enlighten you a bit, son. Cheesing IS an art, because it is very difficult to pull off. Good use of cheesing is included to standard play. You dont start a game by saying "i will cheese". You just play the game normally until you spot a weakness and you exploit it. Its like constantly trying to exploit weaknesses and use timing vulnerabilities which can be as narrow as a few seconds. After you test them many times, you make your conclusions of whether they are valid or not. By using them vs the best and most accurate players, you have the exact knowledge of when and where they are valid or invalid. Every different map, every different set of starting positions changes everything. The difference between fail and success can sometimes be only 1 second. The variations that you have at your disposal are infinite. By being totally unpredictable and denying scouting you force them to either take risks, or play extremely cautiously. More often than not you may be playing standard but faking a cheese. Some other times you maybe playing a cheese while appearing to play standard. Show muta and go hydra, comsat scans spire and make drones instead of muta, laugh as he turrets up and you make transition to lurk ling defiler scourge. Move 12 empty overlords to his main and go all out frontal attack as he runs into his main in panic. Those are just some examples of the mindset. Cheese sux man, im not even cheesing. Its just the massive ignorance of what is and what isnt cheese that makes me use this word in order to be more understandable. In fact i was very active at the era when the word cheese was invented. Guess what, it was invented by totaly ignorant noobs, which were clueless about timings, build orders and such, they just had a sheer willpower to win and fast hands. You think i enjoy playing this role? You think i got something to gain here? I have always been the silent type, enjoying my mass games vs good players in ladders and fine tuning my play to perfection. Its just the sad ass ignorant responses i too often hear that made me even bother to open this thread.
As for the professional bw scene, let me inform you that cheese doesnt work because it is so commonly used in practice that its already mapped out. Because it was used, not because it was looked down at. Cheese is the abc of starcraft, learn it and you got strong fundamentals, skip it and have gaps in your style forever. Test it, face it, learn it, skip it. Dont dismiss it.
On October 15 2011 08:35 tryummm wrote: I wouldn't consider cheesing an art. If you are playing against someone with a cheese build you have prepared and thoroughly practiced and you win it doesn't mean you're better than your opponent. It just means your opponent hasn't practiced against that particular build enough to know how to defend it. If they did, your strategy would be obsolete.
There is no way its harder to cheese than it is to learn standard play. The opponent reacts to a cheese user, making it easier to become proficient at the build. Whereas learning standard play you have to respond to your opponents numerous possible openings properly otherwise you can die to a large number of potential timings. Also, cheese users don't need the knowledge of the game or mechanical proficiencies standard players require. This is why cheesy players like Kwanro have essentially been removed from professional gaming. Eventually players learn to beat their cheeses, and the cheese users don't have the skill sets and knowledge to easily become a standard player.
Let me enlighten you a bit, son. Cheesing IS an art, because it is very difficult to pull off. Good use of cheesing is included to standard play. You dont start a game by saying "i will cheese". You just play the game normally until you spot a weakness and you exploit it. Its like constantly trying to exploit weaknesses and use timing vulnerabilities which can be as narrow as a few seconds. After you test them many times, you make your conclusions of whether they are valid or not. By using them vs the best and most accurate players, you have the exact knowledge of when and where they are valid or invalid. Every different map, every different set of starting positions changes everything. The difference between fail and success can sometimes be only 1 second. The variations that you have at your disposal are infinite. By being totally unpredictable and denying scouting you force them to either take risks, or play extremely cautiously. More often than not you may be playing standard but faking a cheese. Some other times you maybe playing a cheese while appearing to play standard. Show muta and go hydra, comsat scans spire and make drones instead of muta, laugh as he turrets up and you make transition to lurk ling defiler scourge. Move 12 empty overlords to his main and go all out frontal attack as he runs into his main in panic. Those are just some examples of the mindset. Cheese sux man, im not even cheesing. Its just the massive ignorance of what is and what isnt cheese that makes me use this word in order to be more understandable. In fact i was very active at the era when the word cheese was invented. Guess what, it was invented by totaly ignorant noobs, which were clueless about timings, build orders and such, they just had a sheer willpower to win and fast hands. You think i enjoy playing this role? You think i got something to gain here? I have always been the silent type, enjoying my mass games vs good players in ladders and fine tuning my play to perfection. Its just the sad ass ignorant responses i too often hear that made me even bother to open this thread.
As for the professional bw scene, let me inform you that cheese doesnt work because it is so commonly used in practice that its already mapped out. Because it was used, not because it was looked down at. Cheese is the abc of starcraft, learn it and you got strong fundamentals, skip it and have gaps in your style forever. Test it, face it, learn it, skip it. Dont dismiss it.
So you seem to be broadening your 'cheese' definition to include a lot of different plays. Cheese as I understand it is a strategy that will fail if it is scouted. It may not win if it is scouted (enemy played safe), it may not be easy to scout (hydra bust behind ling speed deny) but it will lose if scouted in time.
Then you go on to talk about some basic stuff. Aka not giving your opponent info and faking drops...? Pretty sure people know about this. Earlier you were advocating stuff like 1 basing. This is the stuff I would object to... its bad.
Essentially your asking non-pro players to have "[used a variety of strats] vs the best and most accurate players, you have the exact knowledge of when and where they are valid or invalid. Every different map, every different set of starting positions changes everything."? No my friend, better to practice standard.
On October 15 2011 08:35 tryummm wrote: I wouldn't consider cheesing an art. If you are playing against someone with a cheese build you have prepared and thoroughly practiced and you win it doesn't mean you're better than your opponent. It just means your opponent hasn't practiced against that particular build enough to know how to defend it. If they did, your strategy would be obsolete.
There is no way its harder to cheese than it is to learn standard play. The opponent reacts to a cheese user, making it easier to become proficient at the build. Whereas learning standard play you have to respond to your opponents numerous possible openings properly otherwise you can die to a large number of potential timings. Also, cheese users don't need the knowledge of the game or mechanical proficiencies standard players require. This is why cheesy players like Kwanro have essentially been removed from professional gaming. Eventually players learn to beat their cheeses, and the cheese users don't have the skill sets and knowledge to easily become a standard player.
Let me enlighten you a bit, son. Cheesing IS an art, because it is very difficult to pull off. Good use of cheesing is included to standard play. You dont start a game by saying "i will cheese". You just play the game normally until you spot a weakness and you exploit it. Its like constantly trying to exploit weaknesses and use timing vulnerabilities which can be as narrow as a few seconds. After you test them many times, you make your conclusions of whether they are valid or not. By using them vs the best and most accurate players, you have the exact knowledge of when and where they are valid or invalid. Every different map, every different set of starting positions changes everything. The difference between fail and success can sometimes be only 1 second. The variations that you have at your disposal are infinite. By being totally unpredictable and denying scouting you force them to either take risks, or play extremely cautiously. More often than not you may be playing standard but faking a cheese. Some other times you maybe playing a cheese while appearing to play standard. Show muta and go hydra, comsat scans spire and make drones instead of muta, laugh as he turrets up and you make transition to lurk ling defiler scourge. Move 12 empty overlords to his main and go all out frontal attack as he runs into his main in panic. Those are just some examples of the mindset. Cheese sux man, im not even cheesing. Its just the massive ignorance of what is and what isnt cheese that makes me use this word in order to be more understandable. In fact i was very active at the era when the word cheese was invented. Guess what, it was invented by totaly ignorant noobs, which were clueless about timings, build orders and such, they just had a sheer willpower to win and fast hands. You think i enjoy playing this role? You think i got something to gain here? I have always been the silent type, enjoying my mass games vs good players in ladders and fine tuning my play to perfection. Its just the sad ass ignorant responses i too often hear that made me even bother to open this thread.
As for the professional bw scene, let me inform you that cheese doesnt work because it is so commonly used in practice that its already mapped out. Because it was used, not because it was looked down at. Cheese is the abc of starcraft, learn it and you got strong fundamentals, skip it and have gaps in your style forever. Test it, face it, learn it, skip it. Dont dismiss it.
So you seem to be broadening your 'cheese' definition to include a lot of different plays. Cheese as I understand it is a strategy that will fail if it is scouted. It may not win if it is scouted (enemy played safe), it may not be easy to scout (hydra bust behind ling speed deny) but it will lose if scouted in time.
Then you go on to talk about some basic stuff. Aka not giving your opponent info and faking drops...? Pretty sure people know about this. Earlier you were advocating stuff like 1 basing. This is the stuff I would object to... its bad.
Essentially your asking non-pro players to have "[used a variety of strats] vs the best and most accurate players, you have the exact knowledge of when and where they are valid or invalid. Every different map, every different set of starting positions changes everything."? No my friend, better to practice standard.
You are totally missing the point, i'm afraid. If a certain strategy is bad at pro level, it doesn't mean that its bad at a medium level or at a low level. Its like playing chess, your opponent makes a mistake in opening and you have mate in 4 moves but you refuse to deviate from the grandmaster play that u saw and proceed to an endgame where u got a slight advantage. You will never be good by copying others, no matter how good they are. You will become decent in short time but u will never be gosu, you will be adequate but superficial. Your play will be 1-dimentional. Nevertheless, you may even become a pro in tvp, pvt or tvt(dull matchups). Terran in particular is a notoriously strong race for a no brain skillhand bot style.
On October 15 2011 06:05 sataNik[pG] wrote: I agree that protoss needs the expansion vs zerg to play an equal game, but he can take it in so many different timings which are advantageous. Forge fe isnt the only option, perhaps its the safest option but its passive. Toss can 2 gate zeal non stop probe build with light/medium pressure into expand, which may not be as safe, but its even more advantageous. Other safe and flexible options which can expand in many different timings are the 2 gate zeal -> fast cors+leg and the 1 gate cors dt.
For TvZ however 1 base terran is a powerhouse no matter what he does. Just everything u can think of is really strong. Fast expand TvZ is far more easily manageable from the zerg side because it doesnt pressure.
yeah but 1 base fe is much stronger mid game
as a terran who saw 1 base 2 barrack play starting to fail more and more vs 12 hatch into anything, there is a good reason why people now go fe even when the metagame has zergs doing 2 hatch muta which is hard to stop
On October 15 2011 06:05 sataNik[pG] wrote: I agree that protoss needs the expansion vs zerg to play an equal game, but he can take it in so many different timings which are advantageous. Forge fe isnt the only option, perhaps its the safest option but its passive. Toss can 2 gate zeal non stop probe build with light/medium pressure into expand, which may not be as safe, but its even more advantageous. Other safe and flexible options which can expand in many different timings are the 2 gate zeal -> fast cors+leg and the 1 gate cors dt.
For TvZ however 1 base terran is a powerhouse no matter what he does. Just everything u can think of is really strong. Fast expand TvZ is far more easily manageable from the zerg side because it doesnt pressure.
There are a lot of fast expand builds in TvZ that shove a lot of pressure into the Zerg's face. The most prominent one I can think of is 1rax fe/14cc into gas after two raxes, acad, engineering, and moving out. This timing comes out very quickly and can easily force the Zerg to engage with the Terran in the mid and can make them either cancel or lose their third if the Terran relentlessly continued pressure by going 4rax before factory. 1base Terran builds have lost power over the years because Zergs have gotten much better at reading and deflecting them. The only real 1base TvZ build that has actually really worked the past few years is 2port wraith. Other attempts have been mostly unsuccessful.
Forge fe also has aggressive pressure based midgame options which have been popular for years and years now. It began with the 4gate 2archon opening and Protoss players have continued to refine this over the years with sharper speedlot timings with the most noticeable modern form coming from Bisu's sophisticated sair-zealot opening which I don't fully understand because I've heavily lost interest in BW over the past year. The non-forge fe Protoss openings against Zerg just simply are not "more advantageous" anymore because Zerg players have gotten so good at reading and deflecting them. It has been like this for years, and one could cite the dismal PvZ results from Tears of the Moon to show why 1base openings just haven't been working out for Protoss players for a really long time now. 2gate and 1gate openings just don't provide the safety or the flexibility of forge fe builds.
I think the biggest problem with what you're trying to say is that you are putting too much emphasis on variety in openings when the emphasis on variety has almost entirely moved to the midgame. Fast expand builds have given every race much more options in the midgame, and consequently I would argue that there is much more true variety in BW now than there has been in the past.
On October 15 2011 10:24 Jumperer wrote: sataNik isn't really talking about cheesing. He is talking about "strategic" plays. All the confusions are probably caused by the language barrier.
I'm very sure it's not sataNiks definition of cheese, but the definition by the players crying after begin killed by something he does when playing against them. If they call him a fucking cheeser after losing to his "strategic" play, what else should he call it?
On October 15 2011 06:05 sataNik[pG] wrote: I agree that protoss needs the expansion vs zerg to play an equal game, but he can take it in so many different timings which are advantageous. Forge fe isnt the only option, perhaps its the safest option but its passive. Toss can 2 gate zeal non stop probe build with light/medium pressure into expand, which may not be as safe, but its even more advantageous. Other safe and flexible options which can expand in many different timings are the 2 gate zeal -> fast cors+leg and the 1 gate cors dt.
For TvZ however 1 base terran is a powerhouse no matter what he does. Just everything u can think of is really strong. Fast expand TvZ is far more easily manageable from the zerg side because it doesnt pressure.
yeah but 1 base fe is much stronger mid game
as a terran who saw 1 base 2 barrack play starting to fail more and more vs 12 hatch into anything, there is a good reason why people now go fe even when the metagame has zergs doing 2 hatch muta which is hard to stop
I'm not one of those who think that 12 hatch should be left unpunished, be it the SBB boxer style scv all-in or the BS>tech/BSB bunker tease. If its cross positions though just expand, i rest my case.
On October 15 2011 14:50 Kiante wrote: because allinning your opponent when they 12 hatch makes for a sick fun game yo
you can do whatever you want for fun, here we were talking about which option gives highest % of win.
trolling much, are we?
Well what a lot of people are saying in this thread is that players have long since learned how to defend such early aggression even with openings like 12 hatch, and because of that, it's often better to not rush and instead to take a fast expansion of your own, because in theory the better player is more likely to win the longer the game goes on.
I'm not saying that such "cheese" is completely unviable or makes for boring games, though. On the contrary, the occasional cheese makes for exciting games (in pro matches) because what's about to happen next is less predictable. I personally believe that one of the things that makes watching pro games so entertaining is the anticipation that comes with not knowing whats going to happen next.
On October 15 2011 14:50 Kiante wrote: because allinning your opponent when they 12 hatch makes for a sick fun game yo
you can do whatever you want for fun, here we were talking about which option gives highest % of win.
trolling much, are we?
Well what a lot of people are saying in this thread is that players have long since learned how to defend such early aggression even with openings like 12 hatch, and because of that, it's often better to not rush and instead to take a fast expansion of your own, because in theory the better player is more likely to win the longer the game goes on.
I'm not saying that such "cheese" is completely unviable or makes for boring games, though. On the contrary, the occasional cheese makes for exciting games (in pro matches) because what's about to happen next is less predictable. I personally believe that one of the things that makes watching pro games so entertaining is the anticipation that comes with not knowing whats going to happen next.
That is the assumption that the OP is pointing out simply isn't true.
Players don't really have to fight against them much and when they do they either "Squashed it cause it's terrible cheese" or "if they didnt fuck up this one thing they would have squashed it cause it's terrible cheese"
There is a pressure from the Macro or die crowd to think as inside the box as possible.
So when he does simple strategic "cheese" he wins because people dont actually think about it anymore.
On October 15 2011 14:50 Kiante wrote: because allinning your opponent when they 12 hatch makes for a sick fun game yo
you can do whatever you want for fun, here we were talking about which option gives highest % of win.
trolling much, are we?
Well what a lot of people are saying in this thread is that players have long since learned how to defend such early aggression even with openings like 12 hatch, and because of that, it's often better to not rush and instead to take a fast expansion of your own, because in theory the better player is more likely to win the longer the game goes on.
If you are a better earlygamer than your opponent and a worse lategamer, does it mean you are a worse player? Or does it mean you cant play the game according to your strengths?
You sound like a european soccer coach who disses the latin american playstyle. Its all up to the material you posses: if u got the bulldogs play for defence+strength, if you got the artists play for mobility and tricks.
On October 15 2011 14:50 Kiante wrote: because allinning your opponent when they 12 hatch makes for a sick fun game yo
you can do whatever you want for fun, here we were talking about which option gives highest % of win.
trolling much, are we?
Well what a lot of people are saying in this thread is that players have long since learned how to defend such early aggression even with openings like 12 hatch, and because of that, it's often better to not rush and instead to take a fast expansion of your own, because in theory the better player is more likely to win the longer the game goes on.
I'm not saying that such "cheese" is completely unviable or makes for boring games, though. On the contrary, the occasional cheese makes for exciting games (in pro matches) because what's about to happen next is less predictable. I personally believe that one of the things that makes watching pro games so entertaining is the anticipation that comes with not knowing whats going to happen next.
That is the assumption that the OP is pointing out simply isn't true.
Players don't really have to fight against them much and when they do they either "Squashed it cause it's terrible cheese" or "if they didnt fuck up this one thing they would have squashed it cause it's terrible cheese"
There is a pressure from the Macro or die crowd to think as inside the box as possible.
Well, if your opponent does have experience against cheese, the cheese is not likely to be effective if scouted. True, players on iCCup are probably inexperienced in defending cheese, but that shouldn't in itself be justification for using builds that are less viable against opponents of sufficient skill in terms of defense.
On October 15 2011 15:21 sataNik[pG] wrote: If you are a better earlygamer than your opponent and a worse lategamer, does it mean you are a worse player? Or does it mean you cant play the game according to your strengths?
You sound like a european soccer coach who disses the latin american playstyle. Its all up to the material you posses: if u got the bulldogs play for defence+strength, if you got the artists play for mobility and tricks.
I didn't say to not play to your strengths. Outside of a tournament setting, however, it's probably best to play to your weaknesses so you may overcome them. I'm not dissing anyone for their style.
Besides, this is all theorycrafting. I'm sure you will find out for yourself how viable all these strategies are, better than I would know.
On October 15 2011 06:05 sataNik[pG] wrote: I agree that protoss needs the expansion vs zerg to play an equal game, but he can take it in so many different timings which are advantageous. Forge fe isnt the only option, perhaps its the safest option but its passive. Toss can 2 gate zeal non stop probe build with light/medium pressure into expand, which may not be as safe, but its even more advantageous. Other safe and flexible options which can expand in many different timings are the 2 gate zeal -> fast cors+leg and the 1 gate cors dt.
For TvZ however 1 base terran is a powerhouse no matter what he does. Just everything u can think of is really strong. Fast expand TvZ is far more easily manageable from the zerg side because it doesnt pressure.
yeah but 1 base fe is much stronger mid game
as a terran who saw 1 base 2 barrack play starting to fail more and more vs 12 hatch into anything, there is a good reason why people now go fe even when the metagame has zergs doing 2 hatch muta which is hard to stop
I'm not one of those who think that 12 hatch should be left unpunished, be it the SBB boxer style scv all-in or the BS>tech/BSB bunker tease. If its cross positions though just expand, i rest my case.
But isn't this precisely the reason why it is better for the Terran to opt to fast expand rather than try to do some aggressive opening? If you open with a standard 11 or 12 rax then your rax timing will just simply be too late to perform a successful bunker rush even with close positions on a standard map. If you rax before supply aiming for a 12hatch then you pretty much have to succeed with the bunker rush to come out ahead. If you open rax supply and then just expand because you find it unviable to bunker rush in cross positions, then you begin the game a step behind. This all just isn't flexible because to bunker rush you have to open the game with the preconception that you are going to bunker rush before you actually get information on how they opened. There just isn't a way to punish 12hatch reflexively after scouting it anymore unless they put down their pool very, very late at like 13 supply or they went no pool 3hatch.
On the other hand, the most standard form of 1rax fe is economically equivalent to the standard form of 12hatch -> 3hatch, can deal with aggressive 9pool and overpool openings with scouting information and wins out against such openings if the initial 6 lings are blocked without incurring much damage. But if the Terran opened with an aggressive rax before supply and the Zerg opened with a pool first build in the form of 9pool/overpool/12pool, not only will the Zerg be able deny your aggression but sometimes the Zerg will even pull out ahead. Within the context of ZvT/TvZ, 12hatch and 1rax fe offer the greatest flexibility and maneuverability. Personally, once mech openings became popular a few years back I found almost no reason to not open 12hatch in 9/10 games in TvZ because not opening 12hatch made it far more difficult to play against mech openings. 1rax fe was always difficult to punish because of how solid the opening is anyway. I suppose that in the same way Terrans have found that there is almost no reason not to open 1rax fe in 9/10 games because no other opening provided the same solid and flexible background to base their play around.
Midas' "bunker rush if close, expand if far" just doesn't really work anymore. It's really all just about risk management. Why risk an inefficient responsive bunker rush attempt after scouting if you could just but down your cc before rax if scouted early enough, or if you already put down your rax just put down your cc before making any marines and start the game a foot ahead completely risk free? You are effectively punishing the Zerg for going 12hatch by scouting him and the Zerg can't do anything about your incredibly early expand.
I would just like to argue again here that even though the opening variations may have become much more narrow, there are plenty of people that know how to find holes and tear into them with extreme precision with ruthless aggressiveness. The only real difference is that the emphasis for these things have shifted almost entirely from the early game to the midgame, and the midgame on lives on with plenty of flourish.
On October 15 2011 06:05 sataNik[pG] wrote: I agree that protoss needs the expansion vs zerg to play an equal game, but he can take it in so many different timings which are advantageous. Forge fe isnt the only option, perhaps its the safest option but its passive. Toss can 2 gate zeal non stop probe build with light/medium pressure into expand, which may not be as safe, but its even more advantageous. Other safe and flexible options which can expand in many different timings are the 2 gate zeal -> fast cors+leg and the 1 gate cors dt.
For TvZ however 1 base terran is a powerhouse no matter what he does. Just everything u can think of is really strong. Fast expand TvZ is far more easily manageable from the zerg side because it doesnt pressure.
yeah but 1 base fe is much stronger mid game
as a terran who saw 1 base 2 barrack play starting to fail more and more vs 12 hatch into anything, there is a good reason why people now go fe even when the metagame has zergs doing 2 hatch muta which is hard to stop
I'm not one of those who think that 12 hatch should be left unpunished, be it the SBB boxer style scv all-in or the BS>tech/BSB bunker tease. If its cross positions though just expand, i rest my case.
But isn't this precisely the reason why it is better for the Terran to opt to fast expand rather than try to do some aggressive opening? If you open with a standard 11 or 12 rax then your rax timing will just simply be too late to perform a successful bunker rush even with close positions on a standard map. If you rax before supply aiming for a 12hatch then you pretty much have to succeed with the bunker rush to come out ahead. If you open rax supply and then just expand because you find it unviable to bunker rush in cross positions, then you begin the game a step behind. This all just isn't flexible because to bunker rush you have to open the game with the preconception that you are going to bunker rush before you actually get information on how they opened. There just isn't a way to punish 12hatch reflexively after scouting it anymore unless they put down their pool very, very late at like 13 supply or they went no pool 3hatch.
On the other hand, the most standard form of 1rax fe is economically equivalent to the standard form of 12hatch -> 3hatch, can deal with aggressive 9pool and overpool openings with scouting information and wins out against such openings if the initial 6 lings are blocked without incurring much damage. But if the Terran opened with an aggressive rax before supply and the Zerg opened with a pool first build in the form of 9pool/overpool/12pool, not only will the Zerg be able deny your aggression but sometimes the Zerg will even pull out ahead. Within the context of ZvT/TvZ, 12hatch and 1rax fe offer the greatest flexibility and maneuverability. Personally, once mech openings became popular a few years back I found almost no reason to not open 12hatch in 9/10 games in TvZ because not opening 12hatch made it far more difficult to play against mech openings. 1rax fe was always difficult to punish because of how solid the opening is anyway. I suppose that in the same way Terrans have found that there is almost no reason not to open 1rax fe in 9/10 games because no other opening provided the same solid and flexible background to base their play around.
Midas' "bunker rush if close, expand if far" just doesn't really work anymore. It's really all just about risk management. Why risk an inefficient responsive bunker rush attempt after scouting if you could just but down your cc before rax if scouted early enough, or if you already put down your rax just put down your cc before making any marines and start the game a foot ahead completely risk free? You are effectively punishing the Zerg for going 12hatch by scouting him and the Zerg can't do anything about your incredibly early expand.
I would just like to argue again here that even though the opening variations may have become much more narrow, there are plenty of people that know how to find holes and tear into them with extreme precision with ruthless aggressiveness. The only real difference is that the emphasis for these things have shifted almost entirely from the early game to the midgame, and the midgame on lives on with plenty of flourish.
If you do a 9 rax 10 depot build you are just 1 scv behind the 9 depot 11 rax, plus you got the following advantages: 1. You are cheeseproof 2. You can tech fast with 1 rax without needing to wall in (not losing mining time from scvs to build depots far from base+ depots not giving target) 3. You can expand earlier if zerg makes some zerglings, as you have higher marine count. 4. You can harass his natural with the threat of making a bunker, but without bringing scvs as you only need the scouting scv and maybe 1 more to force drone defense. Your group of 3 marines can snipe some drones and safely retreat home. He made zerglings, he lost mining time, job done. 5. You may kill the a scouting overlord at an unexpected timing
If you do a 7 rax 8.5 depot build you got 4 marines at his nat instead of 3 and a 12 hatcher will better be canceling or he will get crippled. (note that if he is smart and cancels you only have a slight advantage, if any at all) However, you got the following disadvantages: 1. Forget expanding 2. You cant tech as fast
The more common 8 rax 9 depot lies in between but lacks orientation as it doesnt have the sting of a 7 rax nor the versatility of a 9 rax. I'm a bit surprised of its popularity since i consider it the weakest of the 3.
We also got the uber 6 rax 8 depot 9 marine in our arsenal for those times that no matter what we try, our "all-ins" keep transposing into playable midgames and we need to feel some adrenaline.
There is also the old school favorite of testie and others 2x10 rax at once which feels very strong, both in marine count and economy. I havent used it much but it usually ends up annihilating the single sunken + any zerglings with a formidable 8-10 marine + 8-10 scvs attack.
On October 15 2011 14:50 Kiante wrote: because allinning your opponent when they 12 hatch makes for a sick fun game yo
you can do whatever you want for fun, here we were talking about which option gives highest % of win.
trolling much, are we?
Well what a lot of people are saying in this thread is that players have long since learned how to defend such early aggression even with openings like 12 hatch, and because of that, it's often better to not rush and instead to take a fast expansion of your own, because in theory the better player is more likely to win the longer the game goes on.
I'm not saying that such "cheese" is completely unviable or makes for boring games, though. On the contrary, the occasional cheese makes for exciting games (in pro matches) because what's about to happen next is less predictable. I personally believe that one of the things that makes watching pro games so entertaining is the anticipation that comes with not knowing whats going to happen next.
He's is trying to say that no, not everyone has learned to defend all-in plays if his cheese/strategic plays work. And if the better player wins, why can't the better player cheese the fuck out of the inferior player and finish the game faster?
Whatever, all this arguing is pointless, why don't we set up some showmatch with Satanik vs TL and see who's right :D. Commentary by Sayle of course!
On October 15 2011 06:05 sataNik[pG] wrote: I agree that protoss needs the expansion vs zerg to play an equal game, but he can take it in so many different timings which are advantageous. Forge fe isnt the only option, perhaps its the safest option but its passive. Toss can 2 gate zeal non stop probe build with light/medium pressure into expand, which may not be as safe, but its even more advantageous. Other safe and flexible options which can expand in many different timings are the 2 gate zeal -> fast cors+leg and the 1 gate cors dt.
For TvZ however 1 base terran is a powerhouse no matter what he does. Just everything u can think of is really strong. Fast expand TvZ is far more easily manageable from the zerg side because it doesnt pressure.
yeah but 1 base fe is much stronger mid game
as a terran who saw 1 base 2 barrack play starting to fail more and more vs 12 hatch into anything, there is a good reason why people now go fe even when the metagame has zergs doing 2 hatch muta which is hard to stop
I'm not one of those who think that 12 hatch should be left unpunished, be it the SBB boxer style scv all-in or the BS>tech/BSB bunker tease. If its cross positions though just expand, i rest my case.
But isn't this precisely the reason why it is better for the Terran to opt to fast expand rather than try to do some aggressive opening? If you open with a standard 11 or 12 rax then your rax timing will just simply be too late to perform a successful bunker rush even with close positions on a standard map. If you rax before supply aiming for a 12hatch then you pretty much have to succeed with the bunker rush to come out ahead. If you open rax supply and then just expand because you find it unviable to bunker rush in cross positions, then you begin the game a step behind. This all just isn't flexible because to bunker rush you have to open the game with the preconception that you are going to bunker rush before you actually get information on how they opened. There just isn't a way to punish 12hatch reflexively after scouting it anymore unless they put down their pool very, very late at like 13 supply or they went no pool 3hatch.
On the other hand, the most standard form of 1rax fe is economically equivalent to the standard form of 12hatch -> 3hatch, can deal with aggressive 9pool and overpool openings with scouting information and wins out against such openings if the initial 6 lings are blocked without incurring much damage. But if the Terran opened with an aggressive rax before supply and the Zerg opened with a pool first build in the form of 9pool/overpool/12pool, not only will the Zerg be able deny your aggression but sometimes the Zerg will even pull out ahead. Within the context of ZvT/TvZ, 12hatch and 1rax fe offer the greatest flexibility and maneuverability. Personally, once mech openings became popular a few years back I found almost no reason to not open 12hatch in 9/10 games in TvZ because not opening 12hatch made it far more difficult to play against mech openings. 1rax fe was always difficult to punish because of how solid the opening is anyway. I suppose that in the same way Terrans have found that there is almost no reason not to open 1rax fe in 9/10 games because no other opening provided the same solid and flexible background to base their play around.
Midas' "bunker rush if close, expand if far" just doesn't really work anymore. It's really all just about risk management. Why risk an inefficient responsive bunker rush attempt after scouting if you could just but down your cc before rax if scouted early enough, or if you already put down your rax just put down your cc before making any marines and start the game a foot ahead completely risk free? You are effectively punishing the Zerg for going 12hatch by scouting him and the Zerg can't do anything about your incredibly early expand.
I would just like to argue again here that even though the opening variations may have become much more narrow, there are plenty of people that know how to find holes and tear into them with extreme precision with ruthless aggressiveness. The only real difference is that the emphasis for these things have shifted almost entirely from the early game to the midgame, and the midgame on lives on with plenty of flourish.
If you do a 9 rax 10 depot build you are just 1 scv behind the 9 depot 11 rax, plus you got the following advantages: 1. You are cheeseproof 2. You can tech fast with 1 rax without needing to wall in (not losing mining time from scvs to build depots far from base+ depots not giving target) 3. You can expand earlier if zerg makes some zerglings, as you have higher marine count. 4. You can harass his natural with the threat of making a bunker, but without bringing scvs as you only need the scouting scv and maybe 1 more to force drone defense. Your group of 3 marines can snipe some drones and safely retreat home. He made zerglings, he lost mining time, job done. 5. You may kill the a scouting overlord at an unexpected timing
If you do a 7 rax 8.5 depot build you got 4 marines at his nat instead of 3 and a 12 hatcher will better be canceling or he will get crippled. (note that if he is smart and cancels you only have a slight advantage, if any at all) However, you got the following disadvantages: 1. Forget expanding 2. You cant tech as fast
The more common 8 rax 9 depot lies in between but lacks orientation as it doesnt have the sting of a 7 rax nor the versatility of a 9 rax. I'm a bit surprised of its popularity since i consider it the weakest of the 3.
We also got the uber 6 rax 8 depot 9 marine in our arsenal for those times that no matter what we try, our "all-ins" keep transposing into playable midgames and we need to feel some adrenaline.
There is also the old school favorite of testie and others 2x10 rax at once which feels very strong, both in marine count and economy. I havent used it much but it usually ends up annihilating the single sunken + any zerglings with a formidable 8-10 marine + 8-10 scvs attack.
9rax (before depo), if its not 2 scv behind it is at least 1.5.
1. In base 11 rax is pretty much cheese proof. 2. You got this but I'm not sure it is worth an scv (with more to come to enable fast tech I would imagine). 3. Not really. 4 yes you got this. 5 yes if he has bad scout patterns. His ovies should be 8 rax proof!
There is a good reasons why T 11 raxes every game.
Man what I struggle with is that you make certain comments that are hard to deny... like if you scout a weakness that will win the game... deviate and go kill him. Well sure I would, but in bw this means you need to have been going a flexible build, scout his weakenss in time and then have the ability to respond and win. Flexible builds will cost you either in defence or in economy. So will super fast scouting though I think good scouting does pay off. Then there is this belief that you will insta win. I wonder how much of a gamble your opponents are doing! If you can scout their weakness, go allin and win then I think they were just doing economic cheese and it is ironic that they call you the cheeser when you punish them duly. More likely, they have some fighting chance in defence. If your scouting early, a reasonable alternative would be to pause army production and expand yourself.
All this is a reasonable occurance in the current bw ear of mid game play. On the other hand, all the builds you are recommending don;t even get there. 1 basing rax before supply build orders are these flexible builds that require good scouting (i.e. way before I need to scout doing my 1 rax cc BO) that cripple you economically. If you can go 2x rax on 10 and win, then ok, your opponents obviously don't understand the proper defence (or your WCG, B rank after 3 years out of the game uber skills are winning this for you and not the strategy!) but really early game aggression should be able to be countered np. e.g. sunks vs unupgraded marines is a very costly defence and the scv's lost cutting and not making a cc will leave the T behind. Similarly to you saying you can 2 gate PvZ and nonstop probes into expansion. This means you're not taking a gas until super late into the game and will have crippled yourself.
Some other times you maybe playing a cheese while appearing to play standard. Show muta and go hydra, comsat scans spire and make drones instead of muta, laugh as he turrets up and you make transition to lurk ling defiler scourge.
Finally some of the stuff you say like faking 9 muta into drone instead, is a straight up lose me the game button! You mean to have the option of building 9 muta which will facilitate harass, map control, the ability to take a 3rd and provide defence (all good things). But instead you choose drones that won;t pressure the T, wont get you an expand (so will mine minerals...) and won't even get you off to lurker ling properly, as hydra production will be super late. A decent T will not have built excessive turrets, current metgame he will be pressuring you (think +1 5 rax) and will probably force you to be making the static defence to live.
tldr: yes seizing on a weakness is good. It doesn't have to be aggressively, if aggression is not a sure win you for. Flexibility will cost you. The builds you are advocating seem to cut too much too early.
I do enjoy defendinvg vs aggression as it teaches me about holes in my defencive play. I'll happily play some games vs you if you would like so you can demonstrate my ignorance to me.
On October 14 2011 07:08 ArvickHero wrote: It sounds like you're saying strategies are stagnant nowadays, which is definitely not the case.
Excuse me? 9/10 games pvz toss opens up with forge nexus. where are the numerous 1 base strats? or 2 gate exp? 4/5 games tvz terran goes 1 rax cc into mass m&m or mech. Where are the amazing 1 base plays: 1 rax acad fact pushes? 2 rax fact acad? or the 3 rax +1 sunk break timing? or the 2 rax m&m + dropship? or the vessel rush +1 m&m + tanks scoop? if u think these are invalid or weak strategies let me prove you wrong. almost every zerg goes for mutalisks tvz.
nuff said
LML. nuff said.
but in all seriousness, do you want to put yourself at a disadvantage every game? forge fe + lml build are like the only viable options for you to still be competitive in. same with mech/1 rax cc bio. 2 rax puts you so behind cause all zerg has to do is pump lings and sunken and then you have no econ left...
Watch his replays, man. Look up the records of the people he's playing. B level players with pretty good records, and he tosses them around like a bag of oreos. "If he still wants to be competitive" is an understatement. iCCup is weaker than it was, obviously, with so many good players moving to SC2 in the foreign scene, but Satanik plays well.
I think what needs to be realised is that standard modern play that professionals use—the FEs, the aggressive macro, the being everywhere—is a really, really hard style to play. You have to be pretty perfect to do it, and it's not just noobs who don't know the builds or have ok macro that are losing to the old school style, it's B level players who theoretically at least know the basics. I find myself that every time I go back to my old tactics I do much better. The new style is really hard, but the old style punishes it so much that you almost might as well leave it to the pros/aspiring pros.
People used to say corsair reaver is so hard to play, but then everyone did it anyway in their own half assed way. That's sort of what all modern builds have become. It is SO much easier to do the old builds and actually put your concentration to good use instead of spreading it so thin you lose track of everything.
Exactly, the style of the pros is -maybe- suitable for them, not for all. It is very demanding and extremely difficult to execute properly. Their capability with the keyboard and mouse is inhuman. I just came back after 4 years absence, playing on a 20ms response ancient tft and a 2001 MS ball mouse, unmotivated, with my zero multitask, controlling mutalisks the same way i did in 1999, but i got no problem at all to be competitive. But! My concentration is complete, my thinking crystal clear, my surrounding is serene (i live alone in the forest), my knowledge is vast and i can control 9 groups of units. I warm up by playing some extra chilled fun games and then im all set. I really enjoy this game very much, thats why i started again to play. Why people so commonly like to waste tremendous amount of energy to useless actions instead of preserving it is beyond me.
Nice topic. always agree with at least people trying out things instead of the same over and over.
Personally although im crap and low level i've been trying various bio builds in TvP, mixing it up with various rax and fac numbers, dropships, going from 1rax cc with range or going 1rax cc tank as normal and hiding the rax. It's just fun to mess about with really and i think people should do it more. In TvZ just been trying an 'everything goes' kinda build with biomech the whole way through the game, reacting by switching between various units at different times, just trying to be annoying everywhere. I don't know much fun to try with other races unfortunately, i was trying various speed shuttle stuff in PvT such as a sorta mass elevator instead of recall; I was thinking maybe hydra/queen w/ ensnare in ZvT maybe, mixed in with lurk/ling of course.. just a hell of a lot to control.
Although i am a low level player better people can do things too no doubt, i think people just don't want to experiment and take losses before maybe finding a fun strategy that at least can work sometimes.
Star.Love is sasin)yeon A+ PGT with 90% pvz, random user, but he is rusty Nam[2] is a highly skilled new age korean terran
All very good games. If you get a chance to play vs MannerGuy or Rhythmical, I hope you upload replays for that too. They seem to be the most dominant on the ladder right now (rather, Rhythmical is basically the only person MannerGuy has lost to).
I respect and understand what sataNik is saying. I managed to win a few games vs him by doing what he called " cheese " builds. I did some 1 base pvz and won. He's better than I am, but by changing things up and doing different builds, it throws the opponent off. He is quite good after being inactive for so long, and am sure he can reach A- A rank with ease, just look at his matchlist and see some of the players he won vs, Draw, TopStar, etc etc..
If he did anything other than 1 gate expand, isn't he going to beat you here or have an advantage? If he one gate robos into obs he can see what you're doing way earlier, if he goes reaver he rapes rines, if he goes 2 gate expand he has enough goons to stop the attack.
Edit: Fun games to watch, I want to see more showmatches! Thanks for sharing.
The biggest fear of this build is dts->psi which can make you run out of scans, hence the very fast scanner and not using scans both to save them and to not warn him. At the timing that i scouted the 4 dragoons it was indication that he had neither robotics nor early citadel. Dragoons < ranged m&m + tank. Vs reaver it is playable, as you got the siege tanks for big range and if you spread out the marines you may snipe the shuttle and the reaver without too many casualties. This build can easily punish anyone whose % of "safely" expanding with dragoons is too high. In pro play it was used once in a while, usually with success.
The biggest fear of this build is dts->psi which can make you run out of scans, hence the very fast scanner and not using scans both to save them and to not warn him. At the timing that i scouted the 4 dragoons it was indication that he had neither robotics nor early citadel. Dragoons < ranged m&m + tank. Vs reaver it is playable, as you got the siege tanks for big range and if you spread out the marines you may snipe the shuttle and the reaver without too many casualties. This build can easily punish anyone whose % of "safely" expanding with dragoons is too high. In pro play it was used once in a while, usually with success.
Nice answer thanks.
You think you will have more replays of showmatches soon?
Oh i remember satanik's ZvZ game in WCG, immediately become his fan lol. Glad to know hes still around. I play at low levels iccup and I think it seems good to practise your marco then after u have reached a certain level you play more attention to strategies. Problem is its very hard to have perfect marco and I do agree with u that the balance nowadays is heavily shifted towards playing a marco game.
On October 19 2011 15:11 EndingLife wrote: sataNik, i was talking to michael he said he would like a RvR showmatch, he's SL]..Rainbow- used to be michael(OD)
Satanik already said he'll accept any challenge, just tell your friend to go to op starteam on iccup.
I randomly saw this thread, and man awesome to see Satanik. I still remember his name from epic zvz's, and I completely fell in love with one game where he actually went hydra. <3
Yeah I am just posting in this thread to say that I remember you for your awesome ZvZ. There was a game in WCG 2007 (I think), where your opponent went for the standard lings+muta while you went hydras. He harassed the shit out of you with his muta micro while you were looking to be barely defending constructing spore. Then once you had 20 hydras you just attacked move and crushed him, it was so great!
I remember 1st~Tsunami and 1st~Goblin talking about your zvz years ago, Satanik. It seemed like they really admired your play! Glad to see you didn't permanently retire!!! =]
On October 14 2011 09:30 Kiante wrote: thats not cheese. Thats just proper countering of your build order. go listen to the nony interview from TSL2
Actually terran can defend that with rax cc as long as they take gas early enough. I've defended it many times. Do you really think progamers would still be doing rax cc if there was such a simple answer to it?
On October 14 2011 09:30 Kiante wrote: thats not cheese. Thats just proper countering of your build order. go listen to the nony interview from TSL2
Actually terran can defend that with rax cc as long as they take gas early enough. I've defended it many times. Do you really think progamers would still be doing rax cc if there was such a simple answer to it?
if progamer decisions were relevant to my own decision making i'd never 12 nex
On October 14 2011 07:08 ArvickHero wrote: It sounds like you're saying strategies are stagnant nowadays, which is definitely not the case.
Excuse me? 9/10 games pvz toss opens up with forge nexus. where are the numerous 1 base strats? or 2 gate exp? 4/5 games tvz terran goes 1 rax cc into mass m&m or mech. Where are the amazing 1 base plays: 1 rax acad fact pushes? 2 rax fact acad? or the 3 rax +1 sunk break timing? or the 2 rax m&m + dropship? or the vessel rush +1 m&m + tanks scoop? if u think these are invalid or weak strategies let me prove you wrong. almost every zerg goes for mutalisks tvz.
Amongst the MBCGame TV shows that you can download here after 4th November is a show called Crazy Collection. Watch it if you like some awesome cheese and other insane strategies.
On October 14 2011 09:30 Kiante wrote: thats not cheese. Thats just proper countering of your build order. go listen to the nony interview from TSL2
Actually terran can defend that with rax cc as long as they take gas early enough. I've defended it many times. Do you really think progamers would still be doing rax cc if there was such a simple answer to it?
if progamer decisions were relevant to my own decision making i'd never 12 nex
On October 14 2011 09:30 Kiante wrote: thats not cheese. Thats just proper countering of your build order. go listen to the nony interview from TSL2
Actually terran can defend that with rax cc as long as they take gas early enough. I've defended it many times. Do you really think progamers would still be doing rax cc if there was such a simple answer to it?
if progamer decisions were relevant to my own decision making i'd never 12 nex
I don't really disagree with you on anything. If your goal is to become a winning/good player "cheesing" and understanding how they work is an enormous skill that is often neglected. And when I mean by cheesing as in being unpredictable, punishing people for their mistakes, creative, smart, strategic play. Like I recommend anyone serious into improving at bw to focus on standard macro games all in order to become a solid player with no gaps in your play which cheesing is a part of becoming. I do agree I get mad when I lose to something not standard in game but after when I think about it, I find it helpful overall because it means that there was a hole in my play that someone exploited and I become aware of this and now know what to focus on. Its a part of my game I always felt I should spend more time on.
On October 14 2011 09:30 Kiante wrote: thats not cheese. Thats just proper countering of your build order. go listen to the nony interview from TSL2
Actually terran can defend that with rax cc as long as they take gas early enough. I've defended it many times. Do you really think progamers would still be doing rax cc if there was such a simple answer to it?
if progamer decisions were relevant to my own decision making i'd never 12 nex
That is the dumbest thing ive ever heard.
Not really. He has a point. Progamers play on a different realm so what they do might not be relevant to you and also even though they are pros they aren't perfect. You notice some pros have a tendency to be slow to change and try to stick to what they are used to so in some cases they can be doing something inefficient.
EPT
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