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Not many years from now, there was a brood war era where everything was interesting.
Build orders had variance, many different strategies were used. It was all so nice and exciting, so much in contrast with the common "copy pro wannabe", "bo ignorant", sloppy macrofest, "me got skillz me can micro (muta,vulture, whatever)" user , which sadly are nowadays the majority of people. People who commonly get mad at you and name you "cheeser" when you exploit their huge bo weaknesses. They dont realize that behind the progaming play that they see and copy there was countless hours of practice vs whatever "cheese" you can think of which act as crash-test for the bo to be finely tuned and viable.
I am sure you all know me or heard of me because im playing this game for so many years now and i am known for my innovative and weird playstyle.
I stopped after wcg2007 and i again started to play this summer. Im writing this because
i found the current metagame lacking variety or, to put it more simply, just sad. I got little
to no skill now, i play with ball mouse, my apm is low and yet im going up the ranks of
iccup with ease. But its painfully boring. I would define it as too easy strategy-wise and demanding energy-wise.
So my advice to all is: be brave, be ballsy, take risks, be innovative, be a cheeser, its all roles you take. Besides, the better cheeser you are, the most cheeseproof
your solid builds will be. Be sure to thank someone if he successfully cheeses you, because he strengthens your anticipation and defense skills. Dont be the egoistic type
of player who wants every single game to be a macro vs macro game which "will define
who is the better player".
Just my 2 cents
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Australia7069 Posts
a good macro player will block your silly cheese and you'll get stalled at some point.
Would be good to see the account you're "going up the ladder" on.
But, do you really think you'll improve cheesing? You basically toss a coin and pray they dont scout/are prepared for whatever you're doing
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10387 Posts
It sounds like you're saying strategies are stagnant nowadays, which is definitely not the case.
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On October 14 2011 06:56 Kiante wrote:
a good macro player will block your silly cheese and you'll get stalled at some point.
Would be good to see the account you're "going up the ladder" on.
But, do you really think you'll improve cheesing? You basically toss a coin and pray they dont scout/are prepared for whatever you're doing
My account is Star.sataNik.
I wasnt talking about silly cheese which is indeed a coin flip.
I was talking about quality strategic cheese which is finely tuned to strike at proper timing and
grand an advantage.
Then again, you are right, this thing im talking about shouldnt be called cheese. I only say it as
cheese is because the vast majoirity of people regards it as cheese and im trying to speak their language.
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Australia7069 Posts
So what you're saying is using unusual styles based on scouting information and assumption of your opponents build.
all i see is you trying to get an easy win rather than trying to perfect your own macro builds immune to silly cheese
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On October 14 2011 07:08 ArvickHero wrote:
It sounds like you're saying strategies are stagnant nowadays, which is definitely not the case.
Excuse me?
9/10 games pvz toss opens up with forge nexus.
where are the numerous 1 base strats? or 2 gate exp?
4/5 games tvz terran goes 1 rax cc into mass m&m or mech.
Where are the amazing 1 base plays: 1 rax acad fact pushes? 2 rax fact acad? or the 3 rax +1 sunk break timing? or the 2 rax m&m + dropship? or the vessel rush +1 m&m + tanks scoop?
if u think these are invalid or weak strategies let me prove you wrong.
almost every zerg goes for mutalisks tvz.
nuff said
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Hey didn't you play against Stork on stage at a WCG once?
I haven't played in quite a while, but I would say that its very difficult to come up with new builds and of course its just easier to copy an established build, but having a successful strategy that you develop for yourself is so rewarding.
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On October 14 2011 07:18 Kiante wrote:
So what you're saying is using unusual styles based on scouting information and assumption of your opponents build.
all i see is you trying to get an easy win rather than trying to perfect your own macro builds immune to silly cheese
Bobby fisher was often looking the chessboard from his opponents side.
By trying to get an easy win when you are the aggressor u will not get a stupid loss when u are on the defensive. Because you will know the timing.
Suppose you are a bad macro player with gaps in your bo. Its easier to get better by trying to find gaps in a good macro players bo and then watch how he counters it.
How can you perfect your macro build if nobody crash tests it? You will just get a bad greedy style which is good only for macro vs macro.
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Australia7069 Posts
You can do interesting things even if you do go for a quick expansion. Its fairly inefficient to play one base pvz these days. Most zergs will block your attempted harass and take an easy eco lead into the midgame. Its more exciting and efficient to see what you can do after taking a quick nexus. lots of protoss are trying cool things to bust turtling zergs with interesting good timings and mass drop strategies. its fairlty sad that you cant appreciate them because you're so set in your "GOTTA 1 BASE CHEESE TO BE FUN YO" bullshit mindset
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I agree satanik and was a fan of your play a long time ago, I cheese a lot and love it.
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HOLY CHRIST ITS SATANIK! I haven't seen you in such a long time. Hope you're still tearing it up in BW 
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Why so aggresive Kiante? sataNik was(is) a very good player, a top foreigner back a few years when he was active, and not with the reputation of a "cheeser".
He is just pointing out that the negativity directed towards cheesers is unjust, as who is to judge another on their choice of style? Playing a "cheese" strategy and playing against one will be improving both players play, and personally I find they can make for the most interesting games.
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Australia7069 Posts
On October 14 2011 07:26 sataNik[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 07:18 Kiante wrote:
So what you're saying is using unusual styles based on scouting information and assumption of your opponents build.
all i see is you trying to get an easy win rather than trying to perfect your own macro builds immune to silly cheese Bobby fisher was often looking the chessboard from his opponents side. By trying to get an easy win when you are the aggressor u will not get a stupid loss when u are on the defensive. Because you will know the timing. Suppose you are a bad macro player with gaps in your bo. Its easier to get better by trying to find gaps in a good macro players bo and then watch how he counters it. How can you perfect your macro build if nobody crash tests it? You will just get a bad greedy style which is good only for macro vs macro.
Of course i take into account cheese. I often try to work on improving my scouting and opening BO's to properly crush lame zerg cheese. You wanna be a crash test dummy? cool, but you'd probably find much more success in a tournament setting if u didn't just cheese ladder games and wank over how good you are
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United States11393 Posts
On October 14 2011 07:20 sataNik[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 07:08 ArvickHero wrote:
It sounds like you're saying strategies are stagnant nowadays, which is definitely not the case. Excuse me? 9/10 games pvz toss opens up with forge nexus. where are the numerous 1 base strats? or 2 gate exp? 4/5 games tvz terran goes 1 rax cc into mass m&m or mech. Where are the amazing 1 base plays: 1 rax acad fact pushes? 2 rax fact acad? or the 3 rax +1 sunk break timing? or the 2 rax m&m + dropship? or the vessel rush +1 m&m + tanks scoop? if u think these are invalid or weak strategies let me prove you wrong. almost every zerg goes for mutalisks tvz. nuff said
BW is still constantly evolving though, it's just not going in the way that you want.
The following quote does a good job of showing BW has still been evolving but is missing a lot of newer stuff and doesn't even cover zvp/zvz.
On September 28 2010 05:46 Ver wrote:SC mapped out? Few innovators/innovations? Are we watching the same games here? The late 2009/2010 season has been one of the most innovative years ever! There's a large amount of exploring left in many of these systems. For Terran alone (listing general systems, not the absurd amount of variations): TvZ- Safe 14cc on 2 player maps a dozen different variations of bio -> mech and vice versa with a lot more room for further exploration (this is huge!) Flexible Valkyrie first openings that can transition into many different possibilities A totally new approach vs 2 hatch muta with aggressive marine pushes (changes a lot) 7 Rax (and overlord snipes from it) 4 rax -> triple port wraith 2 rax acad allins 3rd denial vs 3 hatch muta (very unexplored and complex) 2 base allin vs crazy zerg (3 hatch muta to ultra) Revolutionary lategame defense based off of aggressive vessel raids, covering infantry, and massed tanks (probably the biggest change in years along with bio-mech transitions) 12pool Lair with a very different and expansive early/midgame Improvements on overall mech play (several new midgame options) Heavy and consistent Vulture/Valkyrie!? (totally unexplored) TvP- Many different 3 base timings Many variations in the 2 fact after cc system both from siege expand and from FD 12 Nexus variations and emphasis 1 fact mine double expand in response to 12 Nexus New midgame Carrier transition ideas both before and after arbiters Rax Expand!! (a huge system with tons more exploration but right now there are many variations already) + Show Spoiler [Some specific games] +As long as the pro scene stays alive in courts BW is fine. SC2 is just new (and getting many temporary tournies/players because of this) and people need a break from BW. Give half a year/year and things should be looking better.
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On October 14 2011 07:20 sataNik[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 07:08 ArvickHero wrote:
It sounds like you're saying strategies are stagnant nowadays, which is definitely not the case. Excuse me? 9/10 games pvz toss opens up with forge nexus. where are the numerous 1 base strats? or 2 gate exp? 4/5 games tvz terran goes 1 rax cc into mass m&m or mech. Where are the amazing 1 base plays: 1 rax acad fact pushes? 2 rax fact acad? or the 3 rax +1 sunk break timing? or the 2 rax m&m + dropship? or the vessel rush +1 m&m + tanks scoop? if u think these are invalid or weak strategies let me prove you wrong. almost every zerg goes for mutalisks tvz. nuff said
Everything you just described are openings. The reason why 1base plays don't exist is because people got good at deflecting them or taking advantage of them and getting a huge advantage.
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grudgematch will set the winner, hfgl
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OMG!!!!!!!! Satanik is back!!!!!
Fuck it. I will erase SC2 from my hard drive right now. xD
BW forever!!!
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On October 14 2011 07:25 TranceStorm wrote:
Hey didn't you play against Stork on stage at a WCG once?
I haven't played in quite a while, but I would say that its very difficult to come up with new builds and of course its just easier to copy an established build, but having a successful strategy that you develop for yourself is so rewarding.
Ye i played vs stork wcg 2007 top 16 and he "cheesed" me with 9 10 gate in game 1. I had the proper
overpool build to counter it but i was nervous and sweating because i was vs stork and was 1st time in tv and fucked up.
Man, creativity is all the fun, to copy established builds is the road to ignorance, you need to develop your own builds and perfect them.
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Kiante gets really mad when he gets cheesed, that is why he is being so passionate right now. It's ok Kiante, I understand. ^^
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I think ppl will consider most of the oldschool builds as cheese nowadays. I was cheesing alot like 3-4 years ago but not that much anymore.Doing cheesy builds helped me alot to improve my game and ppl dont understand how harder is to pull a good cheese instead of straight up play. Cheese strategies are fine to mix it up in matches so you can keep your oponents on their toes. I dont mind when im being cheesed with the exeption in pvz when i get 2/3 hatch hydra busted ..
Satanik I "hate" your builds because noone does them anymore nowadays and its hard to counter something you havent played in ages. It was fun playing your against your oldschool builds few days ago. Hope we play again soon
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EPT
