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On October 14 2011 09:49 sataNik[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 09:40 Kiante wrote:
as long as you're relying on a coin toss of not getting scouted to win games you'll most likely be up against people who'll react negatively when they lose to it. Learn to live with it or move to fish where their insults in broken english are hillarious You gotta be kidding me, if i was accused of cheese only when my victories relied upon not being scouted, i wouldnt even start the subject. Im telling you: no matter what i do which deviates from the norm is percieved as cheese.
Well i think your definition of cheese is wrong then..
A cheesy strategy is often considered to only work if not scouted, ive read the whole thread and to me all you say is to exploit your oponents build/playstyle with unortodox builds, that to me is not cheese and requires tremendous game sense and skill to consistantly pull off.
Ive never heard of you before, me having joined the scene not ao long ago, but i can say that this thread has inspired me to be more creative and agressive.
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United States4796 Posts
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Tbh I remember some guy proxy BBS'd his way to A- on iccup
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satanik is back--->proof that foreign BW is rebounding!
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On October 14 2011 10:43 NationInArms wrote:
satanik is back--->proof that foreign BW is rebounding!
There is new BW streams on TL Every single day, So yeah I would say so.
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Satanik, I'm too new to this scene (not to sc in general, but the 1v1 style "pro" scene) to remember your reign over the scene, but everyone else says I should give you a look-see!
Do you have any plans to release a replay pack or to give some examples of your "creative" strategies? I've been experimenting with "off-beat" zerg builds but have found little to no references on things like (just for example, there's many more I try) +1 fast ranged attack upg in 2 hatch lurker in ZvT or double-evo chamber mass unit play in ZvP. With so few replays or VODs out of these very rare builds in the pro scene, its hard to find a nice collection from a proficient player who accurately shows how you can transition into macro styles and secure your advantage.
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For someone who supposedly plays very creative innovative builds, possible cheese / "strategic" play, I don't think sataNik has really played in awhile due to not seeing him / the way he worded his posts, and he is already B rank ( just talked to him on iCCup ) so all the stuff this guy is saying shouldn't be taken lightly, its the truth! It's no joke to not play BW for as long as he did then come back and get B rank with ease, like I said before, guy is a true foreign legend 
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Australia7069 Posts
On October 14 2011 09:49 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 06:56 Kiante wrote:
a good macro player will block your silly cheese and you'll get stalled at some point.
Would be good to see the account you're "going up the ladder" on.
But, do you really think you'll improve cheesing? You basically toss a coin and pray they dont scout/are prepared for whatever you're doing Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 09:30 Kiante wrote:
thats not cheese. Thats just proper countering of your build order. go listen to the nony interview from TSL2 You just TOTALLY contradicted ALL of you're previous posts with this post, I hope you go back and read everything you wrote. Because after that, all of you're previous posts make literally NO sense. and also, 4gate zeal PvT? rofl please.
not at all. 4 gate vs a 1 rax fe is a standard transition from a 1 gate core opening for protoss. Even if i dont kill the terran with it i'll kill a shit ton of scv's and expand behind it. sure i lose a few proxied gates, but honestly its only failed once and i still won the game.
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Can't wait for someone to do something innovative now.
Flash's +1 armor goliath attack was sheer genius.
For a while Shine did some of the greatest 5/6 hatch hydra against protoss.
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i feel like i understand where satanik is coming from, in my words its that once the game starts it doesn't matter where you go with it but its all tactical. If you 'cheese' so to speak, then theres a reason you're doing it and so a 5 pool is just as strategic as a fast nexus for protoss, just both have a very different goal, one long term one short term. All in all once the game starts you're on your own and nothing is unfair, its about the win and seeing where your opponent is weak. Also my own 2 cents is that we should eliminate the word 'standard' from starcraft, because if you have an idea of standard you're not playing the game right
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Grudge Match!!~~ :D
I think threads like these are the products of off-season SPL 
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On October 14 2011 11:10 Kiante wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 09:49 GGzerG wrote:On October 14 2011 06:56 Kiante wrote:
a good macro player will block your silly cheese and you'll get stalled at some point.
Would be good to see the account you're "going up the ladder" on.
But, do you really think you'll improve cheesing? You basically toss a coin and pray they dont scout/are prepared for whatever you're doing On October 14 2011 09:30 Kiante wrote:
thats not cheese. Thats just proper countering of your build order. go listen to the nony interview from TSL2 You just TOTALLY contradicted ALL of you're previous posts with this post, I hope you go back and read everything you wrote. Because after that, all of you're previous posts make literally NO sense. and also, 4gate zeal PvT? rofl please. not at all. 4 gate vs a 1 rax fe is a standard transition from a 1 gate core opening for protoss. Even if i dont kill the terran with it i'll kill a shit ton of scv's and expand behind it. sure i lose a few proxied gates, but honestly its only failed once and i still won the game.
LOL? Says who? , 4gate is never standard in any matchup, in any situation, ESPECIALLY PvT, even if they 1rax FE it doesn't matter, you are better off just 2gate zeal into 2gate goon while expanding than doing some ridiculous 4gate vs 1rax FE........That is just .....I don't even have the word for it but it sure as hell isn't standard. What are you smoking Kiante? Share plz
EDIT : The only time I could ever see where that would be sensationally viable is on BlueStorm if they DON'T wall off, and if they do u just lose, or in PvP if you are forced to 4gate for some strange reason (It can happen)
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Canada2480 Posts
On October 14 2011 09:39 mutantmagnet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 05:46 Ver wrote:SC mapped out? Few innovators/innovations? Are we watching the same games here? The late 2009/2010 season has been one of the most innovative years ever! There's a large amount of exploring left in many of these systems. For Terran alone (listing general systems, not the absurd amount of variations): TvZ- Safe 14cc on 2 player maps a dozen different variations of bio -> mech and vice versa with a lot more room for further exploration (this is huge!) Flexible Valkyrie first openings that can transition into many different possibilities A totally new approach vs 2 hatch muta with aggressive marine pushes (changes a lot) 7 Rax (and overlord snipes from it) 4 rax -> triple port wraith 2 rax acad allins 3rd denial vs 3 hatch muta (very unexplored and complex) 2 base allin vs crazy zerg (3 hatch muta to ultra) Revolutionary lategame defense based off of aggressive vessel raids, covering infantry, and massed tanks (probably the biggest change in years along with bio-mech transitions) 12pool Lair with a very different and expansive early/midgame Improvements on overall mech play (several new midgame options) Heavy and consistent Vulture/Valkyrie!? (totally unexplored) TvP- Many different 3 base timings Many variations in the 2 fact after cc system both from siege expand and from FD 12 Nexus variations and emphasis 1 fact mine double expand in response to 12 Nexus New midgame Carrier transition ideas both before and after arbiters Rax Expand!! (a huge system with tons more exploration but right now there are many variations already) + Show Spoiler [Some specific games] +As long as the pro scene stays alive in courts BW is fine. SC2 is just new (and getting many temporary tournies/players because of this) and people need a break from BW. Give half a year/year and things should be looking better. Unless I missed I skimmed these links incorrectly I don't see this triple port wraith build this guy is talking about. Anyone know what match that was?
I remember a game between classic and zero involving that (on Grand Line I THINK)
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On October 14 2011 11:38 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 11:10 Kiante wrote:On October 14 2011 09:49 GGzerG wrote:On October 14 2011 06:56 Kiante wrote:
a good macro player will block your silly cheese and you'll get stalled at some point.
Would be good to see the account you're "going up the ladder" on.
But, do you really think you'll improve cheesing? You basically toss a coin and pray they dont scout/are prepared for whatever you're doing On October 14 2011 09:30 Kiante wrote:
thats not cheese. Thats just proper countering of your build order. go listen to the nony interview from TSL2 You just TOTALLY contradicted ALL of you're previous posts with this post, I hope you go back and read everything you wrote. Because after that, all of you're previous posts make literally NO sense. and also, 4gate zeal PvT? rofl please. not at all. 4 gate vs a 1 rax fe is a standard transition from a 1 gate core opening for protoss. Even if i dont kill the terran with it i'll kill a shit ton of scv's and expand behind it. sure i lose a few proxied gates, but honestly its only failed once and i still won the game. LOL? Says who? , 4gate is never standard in any matchup, in any situation, ESPECIALLY PvT, even if they 1rax FE it doesn't matter, you are better off just 2gate zeal into 2gate goon while expanding than doing some ridiculous 4gate vs 1rax FE........That is just .....I don't even have the word for it but it sure as hell isn't standard. What are you smoking Kiante? Share plz EDIT : The only time I could ever see where that would be sensationally viable is on BlueStorm if they DON'T wall off, and if they do u just lose, or in PvP if you are forced to 4gate for some strange reason (It can happen)
Actually, PvT 4gate vs 1rax FE is very viable. I remember it was used in a Korean Pro-game before. Nony also used it vs Idra in TSL2. You really shouldn't be so condescending just because Kiante disagrees with sataNik considering sataNik himself wasn't even acting like this. I mean, I agree it's not the standard response, but it definitely works.
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On October 14 2011 10:50 sCCrooked wrote:
Satanik, I'm too new to this scene (not to sc in general, but the 1v1 style "pro" scene) to remember your reign over the scene, but everyone else says I should give you a look-see!
Do you have any plans to release a replay pack or to give some examples of your "creative" strategies? I've been experimenting with "off-beat" zerg builds but have found little to no references on things like (just for example, there's many more I try) +1 fast ranged attack upg in 2 hatch lurker in ZvT or double-evo chamber mass unit play in ZvP. With so few replays or VODs out of these very rare builds in the pro scene, its hard to find a nice collection from a proficient player who accurately shows how you can transition into macro styles and secure your advantage.
Soon probably im gonna release a massive rep pack of my games until 2007
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On October 14 2011 11:48 swanized wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 09:39 mutantmagnet wrote:On September 28 2010 05:46 Ver wrote:SC mapped out? Few innovators/innovations? Are we watching the same games here? The late 2009/2010 season has been one of the most innovative years ever! There's a large amount of exploring left in many of these systems. For Terran alone (listing general systems, not the absurd amount of variations): TvZ- Safe 14cc on 2 player maps a dozen different variations of bio -> mech and vice versa with a lot more room for further exploration (this is huge!) Flexible Valkyrie first openings that can transition into many different possibilities A totally new approach vs 2 hatch muta with aggressive marine pushes (changes a lot) 7 Rax (and overlord snipes from it) 4 rax -> triple port wraith 2 rax acad allins 3rd denial vs 3 hatch muta (very unexplored and complex) 2 base allin vs crazy zerg (3 hatch muta to ultra) Revolutionary lategame defense based off of aggressive vessel raids, covering infantry, and massed tanks (probably the biggest change in years along with bio-mech transitions) 12pool Lair with a very different and expansive early/midgame Improvements on overall mech play (several new midgame options) Heavy and consistent Vulture/Valkyrie!? (totally unexplored) TvP- Many different 3 base timings Many variations in the 2 fact after cc system both from siege expand and from FD 12 Nexus variations and emphasis 1 fact mine double expand in response to 12 Nexus New midgame Carrier transition ideas both before and after arbiters Rax Expand!! (a huge system with tons more exploration but right now there are many variations already) + Show Spoiler [Some specific games] +As long as the pro scene stays alive in courts BW is fine. SC2 is just new (and getting many temporary tournies/players because of this) and people need a break from BW. Give half a year/year and things should be looking better. Unless I missed I skimmed these links incorrectly I don't see this triple port wraith build this guy is talking about. Anyone know what match that was? I remember a game between classic and zero involving that (on Grand Line I THINK)
I think there is one involving By.BaBy as well...searching for it now... 
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I waiting for the first person to do a 10CC ---> quick third. the CC could potentially be part of a wall with a barracks and depot.
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Dude I am not saying 4Gate vs 1rax FE isn't viable, i'm saying its as far off as standard as you can possibly get. I promise I don't think it ISN'T Viable, I Cheese all the time in every matchup so trust me I know, I have done many a 2gate into proxy 2gate PvP but Never a 4gate vs 1rax FE....I mean it just doesn't seem to have much of a follow up planobviously, if he blocks off somehow some way, then you just auto lose.
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Seeing your name brings back memories.
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EPT
