Who cares if its cheese or not? I say just play the fucking game and say gg when u die. Learn to scout, learn to anticipate everything and learn to respect a gamble play. Just dont start the "Im better than you, noob, you can only win with luck cheeser" BS and take the loss like a man.
On October 14 2011 14:44 sataNik[pG] wrote: Who cares if its cheese or not? I say just play the fucking game and say gg when u die. Learn to scout, learn to anticipate everything and learn to respect a gamble play. Just dont start the "Im better than you, noob, you can only win with luck cheeser" BS and take the loss like a man.
agree 100%
@kiante watch like any recent pvt pro game where the terran 18ccs, the most common one is a variation of 4goons > expand > robo > expand
On October 14 2011 13:15 gzo wrote: Hello, I'm not sure who you are (as i've only recently began following Brood War), but seeing as how popular you are, you should start streaming. I'm sure many people, including myself, would enjoy watching, and you should be able to get featured relatively easily.
I made some tests for streaming but it seems my pc lags hard. I got single core K8, 2GB ram on win XP, dunno if its just inadequate hardware or it was some other kind of problem. Btw which is the most light way to stream? I tried camtasia + flash media encoder
On October 14 2011 06:56 Kiante wrote: a good macro player will block your silly cheese and you'll get stalled at some point. Would be good to see the account you're "going up the ladder" on. But, do you really think you'll improve cheesing? You basically toss a coin and pray they dont scout/are prepared for whatever you're doing
On October 14 2011 09:30 Kiante wrote: thats not cheese. Thats just proper countering of your build order. go listen to the nony interview from TSL2
You just TOTALLY contradicted ALL of you're previous posts with this post, I hope you go back and read everything you wrote. Because after that, all of you're previous posts make literally NO sense. and also, 4gate zeal PvT? rofl please.
not at all. 4 gate vs a 1 rax fe is a standard transition from a 1 gate core opening for protoss. Even if i dont kill the terran with it i'll kill a shit ton of scv's and expand behind it. sure i lose a few proxied gates, but honestly its only failed once and i still won the game.
LOL? Says who? , 4gate is never standard in any matchup, in any situation, ESPECIALLY PvT, even if they 1rax FE it doesn't matter, you are better off just 2gate zeal into 2gate goon while expanding than doing some ridiculous 4gate vs 1rax FE........That is just .....I don't even have the word for it but it sure as hell isn't standard. What are you smoking Kiante? Share plz
EDIT : The only time I could ever see where that would be sensationally viable is on BlueStorm if they DON'T wall off, and if they do u just lose, or in PvP if you are forced to 4gate for some strange reason (It can happen)
Nony, thats who and he is right, it's a near sure win.
On October 14 2011 14:44 sataNik[pG] wrote: Who cares if its cheese or not? I say just play the fucking game and say gg when u die. Learn to scout, learn to anticipate everything and learn to respect a gamble play. Just dont start the "Im better than you, noob, you can only win with luck cheeser" BS and take the loss like a man.
never said i was better than you. i have no doubt you would easily crush me if we played, i'm terrible. thats irrelevant. i never said you can only win with cheese either. I'm just saying, you dont get better if u just cheese exclusively on ladder, and man up and take the abuse when you go ahead and gamble instead of using skill to win a game. I'm sure you have the skills there, but you specifically choose not to use them is what i'm getting from what you're saying.
agree 100%
@kiante watch like any recent pvt pro game where the terran 18ccs, the most common one is a variation of 4goons > expand > robo > expand
Yep, a progamer with progamer reaver control can do that, when i use reavers they just die to tanks and i look silly.
On October 14 2011 13:15 gzo wrote: Hello, I'm not sure who you are (as i've only recently began following Brood War), but seeing as how popular you are, you should start streaming. I'm sure many people, including myself, would enjoy watching, and you should be able to get featured relatively easily.
I made some tests for streaming but it seems my pc lags hard. I got single core K8, 2GB ram on win XP, dunno if its just inadequate hardware or it was some other kind of problem. Btw which is the most light way to stream? I tried camtasia + flash media encoder
camtasia + fmle is the most hardware efficient way to stream. if your pc is lagging while trying that setup, xsplit + windowed mode wont be any better. maybe try a reformat or something?
On October 14 2011 14:44 sataNik[pG] wrote: Who cares if its cheese or not? I say just play the fucking game and say gg when u die. Learn to scout, learn to anticipate everything and learn to respect a gamble play. Just dont start the "Im better than you, noob, you can only win with luck cheeser" BS and take the loss like a man.
never said i was better than you. i have no doubt you would easily crush me if we played, i'm terrible. thats irrelevant. i never said you can only win with cheese either. I'm just saying, you dont get better if u just cheese exclusively on ladder, and man up and take the abuse when you go ahead and gamble instead of using skill to win a game. I'm sure you have the skills there, but you specifically choose not to use them is what i'm getting from what you're saying.
LOL 10 years later and we're still crying over cheese.
Cheese games are the best games TBH. They're both exciting from a spectator and from a player's perspective since you honestly have no idea what's gonna happen next, everything's balanced on a razor's edge in a finely tuned cheese vs. a calm and collected opponent.
People should cheese more.
Satanik had baller builds. Fun/famous/popular game by Satanik for those of you who haven't seen it before:
At the beginning of this game i had a bad feeling, haunting for the rest of the game. It seemed to me that i couldn't win no matter how big advantage i had. This was game 1 for a tot vs play.it cw. After this shocking loss i pick r-point, my favorite tvz map and i 8 rax bunker his 12 hat. For 3rd game he is stubborn and picks r-point again! He 12 hatches again and i 8 rax, again with success. He is kinda upset and goes like: "these games are no fun". And my reply: "game 1 was fun enough, now i need the win for my team, sorry" He then goes on to post this game, for compensation i guess, although at that time it was inappropriate to leak replays without asking for approval. Was fun times though...
On October 14 2011 08:58 2Pacalypse- wrote: Holy shit it's Satanik! <3 old school BWers, especially when they come back to playing BW
I sorta agree. A fine tuned, well prepared cheese is so awesome to watch and I agree that players on ICCup should play more "strategically" every now and then instead of solely working on their mechanics. But I also think that it's more fun to do these kind of things when you're playing against a same opponent for a lot of games, instead of random players on ladder. This way you can see each game how your opponent reacts and adapts to your "strategies".
Yeah I agree with this. If you cheese every ladder opponent, you are rolling the dice with respect to the greed>cautious>cheese>greed dynamic. The better overall player, in my opinion, will win more often if both players play a macro game and forgo the RPS. If you are selecting a particular cheese vs a particular opponent then this in my eyes is much more skillful.
Mind you that if I am cheesing almost every ladder its not because im in love with cheese, its only because i abuse the current trend of greed. When caution was the trend i was the one to greed. That was often the case when i had a cheesy image and people were too cautious when playing vs me.
As for now, there is nothing that i can do better than to punish cheese with cautious play. When cheese gets me, i really give kudos to the guy. Because he is clever and he tricked me.
Dont get me wrong, I surely respect the skill of dumb macro spamming to victory but there are other things in bw too.
What im doing here is simply pointing out the ill concept that cheese is something low, or else i cant explain the all too common negativity and lack of manner after short games.
If there is a trend of greed then you are doing nothing wrong, I'd only take issue if the games were split between greed and caution because then you'd be flipping a coin.
I still am of the opinion that cheese is a lower skill than late game and macro ability. If I looked at the best cheeser in the world and a macro player with comparative skill, I would say the macro player was the better player (impossible to objectively measure skill in this instance). This is because I think a macro player will win more games than a cheese player, because the skillset of a macro player is much wider than the skillset required to be a good cheese player.
On October 14 2011 08:58 2Pacalypse- wrote: Holy shit it's Satanik! <3 old school BWers, especially when they come back to playing BW
I sorta agree. A fine tuned, well prepared cheese is so awesome to watch and I agree that players on ICCup should play more "strategically" every now and then instead of solely working on their mechanics. But I also think that it's more fun to do these kind of things when you're playing against a same opponent for a lot of games, instead of random players on ladder. This way you can see each game how your opponent reacts and adapts to your "strategies".
Yeah I agree with this. If you cheese every ladder opponent, you are rolling the dice with respect to the greed>cautious>cheese>greed dynamic. The better overall player, in my opinion, will win more often if both players play a macro game and forgo the RPS. If you are selecting a particular cheese vs a particular opponent then this in my eyes is much more skillful.
Mind you that if I am cheesing almost every ladder its not because im in love with cheese, its only because i abuse the current trend of greed. When caution was the trend i was the one to greed. That was often the case when i had a cheesy image and people were too cautious when playing vs me.
As for now, there is nothing that i can do better than to punish cheese with cautious play. When cheese gets me, i really give kudos to the guy. Because he is clever and he tricked me.
Dont get me wrong, I surely respect the skill of dumb macro spamming to victory but there are other things in bw too.
What im doing here is simply pointing out the ill concept that cheese is something low, or else i cant explain the all too common negativity and lack of manner after short games.
If there is a trend of greed then you are doing nothing wrong, I'd only take issue if the games were split between greed and caution because then you'd be flipping a coin.
I still am of the opinion that cheese is a lower skill than late game and macro ability. If I looked at the best cheeser in the world and a macro player with comparative skill, I would say the macro player was the better player (impossible to objectively measure skill in this instance). This is because I think a macro player will win more games than a cheese player, because the skillset of a macro player is much wider than the skillset required to be a good cheese player.
Just my opinion though.
Isn't Flash the best cheeser?
As well as the unquestionable best macro player. He is incomparable.
Compare shine against best: Shine can win against very strong people when the games are decided early, but he has no real follow up after that. Best, almost the exact opposite. Doesn't have a strong early game, but macros almost as good as Flash.
On October 14 2011 08:58 2Pacalypse- wrote: Holy shit it's Satanik! <3 old school BWers, especially when they come back to playing BW
I sorta agree. A fine tuned, well prepared cheese is so awesome to watch and I agree that players on ICCup should play more "strategically" every now and then instead of solely working on their mechanics. But I also think that it's more fun to do these kind of things when you're playing against a same opponent for a lot of games, instead of random players on ladder. This way you can see each game how your opponent reacts and adapts to your "strategies".
Yeah I agree with this. If you cheese every ladder opponent, you are rolling the dice with respect to the greed>cautious>cheese>greed dynamic. The better overall player, in my opinion, will win more often if both players play a macro game and forgo the RPS. If you are selecting a particular cheese vs a particular opponent then this in my eyes is much more skillful.
Mind you that if I am cheesing almost every ladder its not because im in love with cheese, its only because i abuse the current trend of greed. When caution was the trend i was the one to greed. That was often the case when i had a cheesy image and people were too cautious when playing vs me.
As for now, there is nothing that i can do better than to punish cheese with cautious play. When cheese gets me, i really give kudos to the guy. Because he is clever and he tricked me.
Dont get me wrong, I surely respect the skill of dumb macro spamming to victory but there are other things in bw too.
What im doing here is simply pointing out the ill concept that cheese is something low, or else i cant explain the all too common negativity and lack of manner after short games.
If there is a trend of greed then you are doing nothing wrong, I'd only take issue if the games were split between greed and caution because then you'd be flipping a coin.
I still am of the opinion that cheese is a lower skill than late game and macro ability. If I looked at the best cheeser in the world and a macro player with comparative skill, I would say the macro player was the better player (impossible to objectively measure skill in this instance). This is because I think a macro player will win more games than a cheese player, because the skillset of a macro player is much wider than the skillset required to be a good cheese player.
Just my opinion though.
Isn't Flash the best cheeser?
As well as the unquestionable best macro player. He is incomparable.
Compare shine against best: Shine can win against very strong people when the games are decided early, but he has no real follow up after that. Best, almost the exact opposite. Doesn't have a strong early game, but macros almost as good as Flash.
Yeah it was a rhetorical question, since Flash is both the best cheeser and the best macro player lol.
On October 14 2011 15:40 Burned Toast wrote: You should definetely set up a stream or throw down a Cheese Fest some day! I'm sure I would'nt be the only one enjoying 3 hours or pure cheese...
On September 28 2010 05:46 Ver wrote: SC mapped out? Few innovators/innovations? Are we watching the same games here? The late 2009/2010 season has been one of the most innovative years ever! There's a large amount of exploring left in many of these systems.
For Terran alone (listing general systems, not the absurd amount of variations):
TvZ- Safe 14cc on 2 player maps a dozen different variations of bio -> mech and vice versa with a lot more room for further exploration (this is huge!) Flexible Valkyrie first openings that can transition into many different possibilities A totally new approach vs 2 hatch muta with aggressive marine pushes (changes a lot) 7 Rax (and overlord snipes from it) 4 rax -> triple port wraith 2 rax acad allins 3rd denial vs 3 hatch muta (very unexplored and complex) 2 base allin vs crazy zerg (3 hatch muta to ultra) Revolutionary lategame defense based off of aggressive vessel raids, covering infantry, and massed tanks (probably the biggest change in years along with bio-mech transitions) 12pool Lair with a very different and expansive early/midgame Improvements on overall mech play (several new midgame options) Heavy and consistent Vulture/Valkyrie!? (totally unexplored)
TvP- Many different 3 base timings Many variations in the 2 fact after cc system both from siege expand and from FD 12 Nexus variations and emphasis 1 fact mine double expand in response to 12 Nexus New midgame Carrier transition ideas both before and after arbiters Rax Expand!! (a huge system with tons more exploration but right now there are many variations already)
As long as the pro scene stays alive in courts BW is fine. SC2 is just new (and getting many temporary tournies/players because of this) and people need a break from BW. Give half a year/year and things should be looking better.
Unless I missed I skimmed these links incorrectly I don't see this triple port wraith build this guy is talking about. Anyone know what match that was?
I remember a game between classic and zero involving that (on Grand Line I THINK)
On September 28 2010 05:46 Ver wrote: SC mapped out? Few innovators/innovations? Are we watching the same games here? The late 2009/2010 season has been one of the most innovative years ever! There's a large amount of exploring left in many of these systems.
For Terran alone (listing general systems, not the absurd amount of variations):
TvZ- Safe 14cc on 2 player maps a dozen different variations of bio -> mech and vice versa with a lot more room for further exploration (this is huge!) Flexible Valkyrie first openings that can transition into many different possibilities A totally new approach vs 2 hatch muta with aggressive marine pushes (changes a lot) 7 Rax (and overlord snipes from it) 4 rax -> triple port wraith 2 rax acad allins 3rd denial vs 3 hatch muta (very unexplored and complex) 2 base allin vs crazy zerg (3 hatch muta to ultra) Revolutionary lategame defense based off of aggressive vessel raids, covering infantry, and massed tanks (probably the biggest change in years along with bio-mech transitions) 12pool Lair with a very different and expansive early/midgame Improvements on overall mech play (several new midgame options) Heavy and consistent Vulture/Valkyrie!? (totally unexplored)
TvP- Many different 3 base timings Many variations in the 2 fact after cc system both from siege expand and from FD 12 Nexus variations and emphasis 1 fact mine double expand in response to 12 Nexus New midgame Carrier transition ideas both before and after arbiters Rax Expand!! (a huge system with tons more exploration but right now there are many variations already)
As long as the pro scene stays alive in courts BW is fine. SC2 is just new (and getting many temporary tournies/players because of this) and people need a break from BW. Give half a year/year and things should be looking better.
Unless I missed I skimmed these links incorrectly I don't see this triple port wraith build this guy is talking about. Anyone know what match that was?
hiya vs free on triathlon
oh my bad the tvz one, yeah i dunno sorry D: sounds like an upmagic game tho
No need to feel sorry. Three port wraith being used in PvT as a referrence is awesome. Never thought anyone had the balls to do that.
Ok, I haven't read through all of the pages but I will basically translate the message Satanik is trying to put out there.
He's not encouraging you to cheese every game, he's encouraging you to be more innovative. Winning against foreigners/westerners is relatively easy simply because everybody has the same builds/timings/counters. In other words, if you change or refine your builds you will become a more unpredictable player leaving your opponent oblivious on how to react. Satanik wins his games from unpredictability (uncommon strategies) and has shown that unpredictability doesn't need high apm. The more unpredictable you are, the more your opponent will panic and make mistakes, overspend, or simply prepare for something that isn't coming thus giving you an advantage. However, unpredictability can also be reached by denying scouting. But, even if you deny scouting and your opponent is familiar with any of the "common" builds he will most likely counter it.
Here's a game I encourage all players to watch when it comes to the word I haven't stressed enough "unpredictability".
Flash vs Effort
Flash clearly prepared for something that wasn't coming (lurkers).
haha, I love Satanik for his ZvZ, really glad to see him back. If I had to make a top 10 of the best foreign ZvZ ever, his epic 50 minutes ZvZ against Xiaozi would be #1, and his game against Lowely would be #2 + Show Spoiler +
amazing comeback from Satanik where he gathers a critical mass of upgraded hydras which destroys muta-lings
edit : the second game I mention is clearly showing he masters unconventional play :D
On October 14 2011 14:44 sataNik[pG] wrote: Who cares if its cheese or not? I say just play the fucking game and say gg when u die. Learn to scout, learn to anticipate everything and learn to respect a gamble play. Just dont start the "Im better than you, noob, you can only win with luck cheeser" BS and take the loss like a man.
never said i was better than you. i have no doubt you would easily crush me if we played, i'm terrible. thats irrelevant. i never said you can only win with cheese either. I'm just saying, you dont get better if u just cheese exclusively on ladder, and man up and take the abuse when you go ahead and gamble instead of using skill to win a game. I'm sure you have the skills there, but you specifically choose not to use them is what i'm getting from what you're saying.
taking risks is part of life, man up and get used to it.
On October 14 2011 18:20 endy wrote: haha, I love Satanik for his ZvZ, really glad to see him back. If I had to make a top 10 of the best foreign ZvZ ever, his epic 50 minutes ZvZ against Xiaozi would be #1, and his game against Lowely would be #2 + Show Spoiler +
amazing comeback from Satanik where he gathers a critical mass of upgraded hydras which destroys muta-lings
edit : the second game I mention is clearly showing he masters unconventional play :D
EPT
