EPT
The fine art of "cheesing" - Page 7
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BlazeFury01
United States1460 Posts
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Soulforged
Latvia936 Posts
My personal feeling is that most of the unorthodox aggresion currently switched to mid game; it still exists, but just in a different time place. As far as openings go, I feel that if I commit to an old school aggressive opening against an opponent that is considerably worse than me, but still good enough, he will be in a commanding position in case he opened cautiously. If he opened greedily, I'll probably kill anyone but someone vastly superior right away; if he also opened aggresively, our skill difference is the most important. An example would be having B+ player cheesing every game and eventually losing to a C+ guy who knew how to decisevely handle this particular opening. Now, if I open cautiously, I will always beat aggressive openings(unless I screw up something hardcore), and if I'm better than my opponent, I will catch up to greed as mid game goes on. Actually, simply surviving to late game is usually enough to handle inferior opponent, since his macro will start to slip earlier than mine, and a single wave of lacking units is enough to win a battle or at least take an expansion uncontested. Let alone all the harrass opportunities to make your opponent sweat. If I was top tier korean pro, I'd certainly need to play aggressive a good amount of time in order to not get behind in metagame, specially as at a high level safe-greedy dynamics are also getting solved(specially PvP, imo, where build order advantages lately have been nearly insurmountable). But I'm not. I'm not even A ranked; I still have room to grow in safe/greedy dinamics, and they improve my skillsets more, at least when I'm on ladder. Also, it's a pride thing. Not satisfied with winning 60% of the time, although I'd be happy about it in poker heads up. BW, there's still plenty room to get soo good you'd win 80%+ iccup games at highest ranks opening the same cautious style every game. Maybe it's just a matter of preference. When I feel like it, I still have plenty of aggressive/greedy follow-ups for 2 base play, although my 1base play is usually defensive/scouting oriented. (For example, PvZ after FE there's like 10 allins\semi allins\solid timing pushes that you can pull off; and I like each one of them more than they 1base alternatives. Map dependant, of course) | ||
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yB.TeH
Germany419 Posts
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SolaR-
United States2685 Posts
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BlazeFury01
United States1460 Posts
On October 14 2011 20:50 Qeet wrote: just play the game how you want and dont bitch about other peoples play, goes for satanik as well lol straight to the point but well said. Anyway for all of those who do "bitch" about peoples play, if your so "gosu" and they're so "newb" then you wouldn't have lost to their cheese in the first place. In other words, we don't care about how frustrated you are about your loss. Man up, show sportsmanship, GG, and move on. A loss is a lesson learned and if you didn't learn a lesson from your loss then it's nobodies fault but your own. | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
On October 14 2011 21:17 BlazeFury01 wrote: lol straight to the point but well said. Anyway for all of those who do "bitch" about peoples play, if your so "gosu" and they're so "newb" then you wouldn't have lost to their cheese in the first place. In other words, we don't care about how frustrated you are about your loss. Man up, show sportsmanship, GG, and move on. A loss is a lesson learned and if you didn't learn a lesson from your loss then it's nobodies fault but your own. OP is encouraging people to cheese/play differently, not complaining about it. | ||
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Wohmfg
United Kingdom1292 Posts
That's partly my point. I honestly don't think Flash could become such a great cheeser without his late game ability, because late game ability requires great decision making and multitasking, among other things, which is required in a good cheese. There's a way of thinking, I think especially in foreign BW but I might be wrong, that macro is more skillful than cheese. I think the reason for that is because new players are told to work on their mechanics, and the best way to do that is take it to the late game. It's the quickest way to get good at the game. That's a huge reason why cheese is looked down upon (I look down upon it in some respects) because it doesn't help you improve anything but a very thin slice of skillsets. If you practice late game and macro, you become a player with great mechanics and decision making. If you practice cheese, you become good at mainly cheese. | ||
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
cheese is yust a big mind game going on or a win cuzz the opponent hasnt any knollage to stop that cheese. (i inculde being to greedy with mindgame's incace you wonder) the most commonly openers are safe and give you a good spot without taking risk. for example, 1base reaver vs t, it can do alot of dmg, but if not your in a shitty possion. so you count on your opponent being bad with macro, possioning or dissionmaking, instead of going for a "safe" win. | ||
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
You'll never win anything if you can't win a standard game. So L2P then learn to cheese. Cheesing at the pro level is a mind game. On the ladder you dont know who youre playing against so unless you can beat anyone in a macro game stop cheesing and start learning... Not like anything isn't figured out anyways | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
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TheGlassface
United States612 Posts
Take it to PMs if need be or host a streaming grudge match for the fans. Just quit shitting this thread up over the minute differences between early all-ins and cheese. Also, I hate the word cheese. 4 pool is cheese, blind 2 gate proxy is cheese (especially in base) everything else is good play. Hell, I wouldn't even call BBS cheese anymore. Also, Santanik. Dude, stream playa. We need it! | ||
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LeoTheLion
China958 Posts
On October 14 2011 12:50 Kiante wrote: I'm saying I don't go into the game going, gonna 4 gate, I simply play for a macro game and do the allin if the situation forces me too. Also I never said I don't cheese, I said cheesing exclusively in a ladder doesn't help you improve. i think that you missed satanik's point... satanik is saying that he also does "reactionary all ins" if the game calls for it but people call it cheese he is just complaining that people call smart play cheese when others just play one dimensional and are making up excuses for losses | ||
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ninini
Sweden1204 Posts
On October 14 2011 08:10 XsebT wrote: Dig deep my friendly G Some may seem to disagree But what's really wrong with a nice brie? Let me introduce to you, Horang2! I've played against that exact build on iccup. Proxy gateway inside main into DT rush. I had proper turret timings, but since it was a proxy, they were about 10 seconds late. I was able to defend it without many losses, but my macro slipped so much that I lost to the following dragoon attack. I see a lot of attempts at gateway or cannon inside main, but usually I scout it in time. I don't agree at all that iccup players play standard. I think it's the opposite. I've seen everything from 1 hatch lurkers to fake lair+hydra den into regular 3 hatch muta. (this build hides the spire and abuses the fact that you can't afford to waste scans when you're expecting lurkers) | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
I would love it if you'd upload a replay pack of yourself and your innovative strategies. Not because I want proof or anything, but because I love to watch your play and want to see what you do these days. I think of myself as a pretty innovative player. When you learn this game from playing the same people over and over again, you really need to have a large set of strategies to keep from being easily predicted. Sometimes when you play someone new and they bitch you out for doing something strange (win or lose), it's very discouraging. But that's not something that has changed much. Maybe it is more common because Idra got famous, but there were always people who think you're a noob if you try anything interesting or new. | ||
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surfinbird1
Germany999 Posts
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oldfartz
Philippines117 Posts
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
met you with Eerik good zerg for sure... very good probably the best greek player i've ever seen | ||
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Shinrai
Philippines17 Posts
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Demonhunter04
1530 Posts
On October 14 2011 21:42 Wohmfg wrote: That's partly my point. I honestly don't think Flash could become such a great cheeser without his late game ability, because late game ability requires great decision making and multitasking, among other things, which is required in a good cheese. There's a way of thinking, I think especially in foreign BW but I might be wrong, that macro is more skillful than cheese. I think the reason for that is because new players are told to work on their mechanics, and the best way to do that is take it to the late game. It's the quickest way to get good at the game. That's a huge reason why cheese is looked down upon (I look down upon it in some respects) because it doesn't help you improve anything but a very thin slice of skillsets. If you practice late game and macro, you become a player with great mechanics and decision making. If you practice cheese, you become good at mainly cheese. Well of course, the reason he's the best cheeser is not because of how he executes the cheese itself, which any pro could probably match, but because of which type of cheese he uses and when. This is the idea Satanik was conveying as well. Cheese based upon a coin flip is not so skillful. Cheese that is designed to exploit a scouted weakness in your opponent is, and should not be looked down upon. | ||
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djbhINDI
United States372 Posts
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