EPTThe fine art of "cheesing" - Page 9
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NotJumperer
United States1371 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On October 15 2011 06:05 sataNik[pG] wrote: I agree that protoss needs the expansion vs zerg to play an equal game, but he can take it in so many different timings which are advantageous. Forge fe isnt the only option, perhaps its the safest option but its passive. Toss can 2 gate zeal non stop probe build with light/medium pressure into expand, which may not be as safe, but its even more advantageous. Other safe and flexible options which can expand in many different timings are the 2 gate zeal -> fast cors+leg and the 1 gate cors dt. For TvZ however 1 base terran is a powerhouse no matter what he does. Just everything u can think of is really strong. Fast expand TvZ is far more easily manageable from the zerg side because it doesnt pressure. There are a lot of fast expand builds in TvZ that shove a lot of pressure into the Zerg's face. The most prominent one I can think of is 1rax fe/14cc into gas after two raxes, acad, engineering, and moving out. This timing comes out very quickly and can easily force the Zerg to engage with the Terran in the mid and can make them either cancel or lose their third if the Terran relentlessly continued pressure by going 4rax before factory. 1base Terran builds have lost power over the years because Zergs have gotten much better at reading and deflecting them. The only real 1base TvZ build that has actually really worked the past few years is 2port wraith. Other attempts have been mostly unsuccessful. Forge fe also has aggressive pressure based midgame options which have been popular for years and years now. It began with the 4gate 2archon opening and Protoss players have continued to refine this over the years with sharper speedlot timings with the most noticeable modern form coming from Bisu's sophisticated sair-zealot opening which I don't fully understand because I've heavily lost interest in BW over the past year. The non-forge fe Protoss openings against Zerg just simply are not "more advantageous" anymore because Zerg players have gotten so good at reading and deflecting them. It has been like this for years, and one could cite the dismal PvZ results from Tears of the Moon to show why 1base openings just haven't been working out for Protoss players for a really long time now. 2gate and 1gate openings just don't provide the safety or the flexibility of forge fe builds. I think the biggest problem with what you're trying to say is that you are putting too much emphasis on variety in openings when the emphasis on variety has almost entirely moved to the midgame. Fast expand builds have given every race much more options in the midgame, and consequently I would argue that there is much more true variety in BW now than there has been in the past. | ||
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WhuazGoodJaggah
Lesotho777 Posts
On October 15 2011 10:24 Jumperer wrote: sataNik isn't really talking about cheesing. He is talking about "strategic" plays. All the confusions are probably caused by the language barrier. I'm very sure it's not sataNiks definition of cheese, but the definition by the players crying after begin killed by something he does when playing against them. If they call him a fucking cheeser after losing to his "strategic" play, what else should he call it? | ||
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sataNik[pG]
Greece722 Posts
On October 15 2011 10:19 LG)Sabbath wrote: yeah but 1 base fe is much stronger mid game as a terran who saw 1 base 2 barrack play starting to fail more and more vs 12 hatch into anything, there is a good reason why people now go fe even when the metagame has zergs doing 2 hatch muta which is hard to stop I'm not one of those who think that 12 hatch should be left unpunished, be it the SBB boxer style scv all-in or the BS>tech/BSB bunker tease. If its cross positions though just expand, i rest my case. | ||
Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
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sataNik[pG]
Greece722 Posts
On October 15 2011 14:50 Kiante wrote: because allinning your opponent when they 12 hatch makes for a sick fun game yo you can do whatever you want for fun, here we were talking about which option gives highest % of win. trolling much, are we? | ||
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Demonhunter04
1530 Posts
On October 15 2011 14:57 sataNik[pG] wrote: you can do whatever you want for fun, here we were talking about which option gives highest % of win. trolling much, are we? Well what a lot of people are saying in this thread is that players have long since learned how to defend such early aggression even with openings like 12 hatch, and because of that, it's often better to not rush and instead to take a fast expansion of your own, because in theory the better player is more likely to win the longer the game goes on. I'm not saying that such "cheese" is completely unviable or makes for boring games, though. On the contrary, the occasional cheese makes for exciting games (in pro matches) because what's about to happen next is less predictable. I personally believe that one of the things that makes watching pro games so entertaining is the anticipation that comes with not knowing whats going to happen next. | ||
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Eknoid4
United States902 Posts
On October 15 2011 15:02 Demonhunter04 wrote: Well what a lot of people are saying in this thread is that players have long since learned how to defend such early aggression even with openings like 12 hatch, and because of that, it's often better to not rush and instead to take a fast expansion of your own, because in theory the better player is more likely to win the longer the game goes on. I'm not saying that such "cheese" is completely unviable or makes for boring games, though. On the contrary, the occasional cheese makes for exciting games (in pro matches) because what's about to happen next is less predictable. I personally believe that one of the things that makes watching pro games so entertaining is the anticipation that comes with not knowing whats going to happen next. That is the assumption that the OP is pointing out simply isn't true. Players don't really have to fight against them much and when they do they either "Squashed it cause it's terrible cheese" or "if they didnt fuck up this one thing they would have squashed it cause it's terrible cheese" There is a pressure from the Macro or die crowd to think as inside the box as possible. So when he does simple strategic "cheese" he wins because people dont actually think about it anymore. | ||
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sataNik[pG]
Greece722 Posts
On October 15 2011 15:02 Demonhunter04 wrote: Well what a lot of people are saying in this thread is that players have long since learned how to defend such early aggression even with openings like 12 hatch, and because of that, it's often better to not rush and instead to take a fast expansion of your own, because in theory the better player is more likely to win the longer the game goes on. If you are a better earlygamer than your opponent and a worse lategamer, does it mean you are a worse player? Or does it mean you cant play the game according to your strengths? You sound like a european soccer coach who disses the latin american playstyle. Its all up to the material you posses: if u got the bulldogs play for defence+strength, if you got the artists play for mobility and tricks. | ||
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Demonhunter04
1530 Posts
On October 15 2011 15:18 Eknoid4 wrote: That is the assumption that the OP is pointing out simply isn't true. Players don't really have to fight against them much and when they do they either "Squashed it cause it's terrible cheese" or "if they didnt fuck up this one thing they would have squashed it cause it's terrible cheese" There is a pressure from the Macro or die crowd to think as inside the box as possible. Well, if your opponent does have experience against cheese, the cheese is not likely to be effective if scouted. True, players on iCCup are probably inexperienced in defending cheese, but that shouldn't in itself be justification for using builds that are less viable against opponents of sufficient skill in terms of defense. On October 15 2011 15:21 sataNik[pG] wrote: If you are a better earlygamer than your opponent and a worse lategamer, does it mean you are a worse player? Or does it mean you cant play the game according to your strengths? You sound like a european soccer coach who disses the latin american playstyle. Its all up to the material you posses: if u got the bulldogs play for defence+strength, if you got the artists play for mobility and tricks. I didn't say to not play to your strengths. Outside of a tournament setting, however, it's probably best to play to your weaknesses so you may overcome them. I'm not dissing anyone for their style. Besides, this is all theorycrafting. I'm sure you will find out for yourself how viable all these strategies are, better than I would know. | ||
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NotJumperer
United States1371 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On October 15 2011 14:02 sataNik[pG] wrote: I'm not one of those who think that 12 hatch should be left unpunished, be it the SBB boxer style scv all-in or the BS>tech/BSB bunker tease. If its cross positions though just expand, i rest my case. But isn't this precisely the reason why it is better for the Terran to opt to fast expand rather than try to do some aggressive opening? If you open with a standard 11 or 12 rax then your rax timing will just simply be too late to perform a successful bunker rush even with close positions on a standard map. If you rax before supply aiming for a 12hatch then you pretty much have to succeed with the bunker rush to come out ahead. If you open rax supply and then just expand because you find it unviable to bunker rush in cross positions, then you begin the game a step behind. This all just isn't flexible because to bunker rush you have to open the game with the preconception that you are going to bunker rush before you actually get information on how they opened. There just isn't a way to punish 12hatch reflexively after scouting it anymore unless they put down their pool very, very late at like 13 supply or they went no pool 3hatch. On the other hand, the most standard form of 1rax fe is economically equivalent to the standard form of 12hatch -> 3hatch, can deal with aggressive 9pool and overpool openings with scouting information and wins out against such openings if the initial 6 lings are blocked without incurring much damage. But if the Terran opened with an aggressive rax before supply and the Zerg opened with a pool first build in the form of 9pool/overpool/12pool, not only will the Zerg be able deny your aggression but sometimes the Zerg will even pull out ahead. Within the context of ZvT/TvZ, 12hatch and 1rax fe offer the greatest flexibility and maneuverability. Personally, once mech openings became popular a few years back I found almost no reason to not open 12hatch in 9/10 games in TvZ because not opening 12hatch made it far more difficult to play against mech openings. 1rax fe was always difficult to punish because of how solid the opening is anyway. I suppose that in the same way Terrans have found that there is almost no reason not to open 1rax fe in 9/10 games because no other opening provided the same solid and flexible background to base their play around. Midas' "bunker rush if close, expand if far" just doesn't really work anymore. It's really all just about risk management. Why risk an inefficient responsive bunker rush attempt after scouting if you could just but down your cc before rax if scouted early enough, or if you already put down your rax just put down your cc before making any marines and start the game a foot ahead completely risk free? You are effectively punishing the Zerg for going 12hatch by scouting him and the Zerg can't do anything about your incredibly early expand. I would just like to argue again here that even though the opening variations may have become much more narrow, there are plenty of people that know how to find holes and tear into them with extreme precision with ruthless aggressiveness. The only real difference is that the emphasis for these things have shifted almost entirely from the early game to the midgame, and the midgame on lives on with plenty of flourish. | ||
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Valashu
Netherlands561 Posts
Fucking cheese for 1000 games and then go macro like a boss and win us a tournament. Edit:ohshi....did I just post in the BW forums? | ||
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sataNik[pG]
Greece722 Posts
On October 15 2011 16:43 koreasilver wrote: But isn't this precisely the reason why it is better for the Terran to opt to fast expand rather than try to do some aggressive opening? If you open with a standard 11 or 12 rax then your rax timing will just simply be too late to perform a successful bunker rush even with close positions on a standard map. If you rax before supply aiming for a 12hatch then you pretty much have to succeed with the bunker rush to come out ahead. If you open rax supply and then just expand because you find it unviable to bunker rush in cross positions, then you begin the game a step behind. This all just isn't flexible because to bunker rush you have to open the game with the preconception that you are going to bunker rush before you actually get information on how they opened. There just isn't a way to punish 12hatch reflexively after scouting it anymore unless they put down their pool very, very late at like 13 supply or they went no pool 3hatch. On the other hand, the most standard form of 1rax fe is economically equivalent to the standard form of 12hatch -> 3hatch, can deal with aggressive 9pool and overpool openings with scouting information and wins out against such openings if the initial 6 lings are blocked without incurring much damage. But if the Terran opened with an aggressive rax before supply and the Zerg opened with a pool first build in the form of 9pool/overpool/12pool, not only will the Zerg be able deny your aggression but sometimes the Zerg will even pull out ahead. Within the context of ZvT/TvZ, 12hatch and 1rax fe offer the greatest flexibility and maneuverability. Personally, once mech openings became popular a few years back I found almost no reason to not open 12hatch in 9/10 games in TvZ because not opening 12hatch made it far more difficult to play against mech openings. 1rax fe was always difficult to punish because of how solid the opening is anyway. I suppose that in the same way Terrans have found that there is almost no reason not to open 1rax fe in 9/10 games because no other opening provided the same solid and flexible background to base their play around. Midas' "bunker rush if close, expand if far" just doesn't really work anymore. It's really all just about risk management. Why risk an inefficient responsive bunker rush attempt after scouting if you could just but down your cc before rax if scouted early enough, or if you already put down your rax just put down your cc before making any marines and start the game a foot ahead completely risk free? You are effectively punishing the Zerg for going 12hatch by scouting him and the Zerg can't do anything about your incredibly early expand. I would just like to argue again here that even though the opening variations may have become much more narrow, there are plenty of people that know how to find holes and tear into them with extreme precision with ruthless aggressiveness. The only real difference is that the emphasis for these things have shifted almost entirely from the early game to the midgame, and the midgame on lives on with plenty of flourish. If you do a 9 rax 10 depot build you are just 1 scv behind the 9 depot 11 rax, plus you got the following advantages: 1. You are cheeseproof 2. You can tech fast with 1 rax without needing to wall in (not losing mining time from scvs to build depots far from base+ depots not giving target) 3. You can expand earlier if zerg makes some zerglings, as you have higher marine count. 4. You can harass his natural with the threat of making a bunker, but without bringing scvs as you only need the scouting scv and maybe 1 more to force drone defense. Your group of 3 marines can snipe some drones and safely retreat home. He made zerglings, he lost mining time, job done. 5. You may kill the a scouting overlord at an unexpected timing If you do a 7 rax 8.5 depot build you got 4 marines at his nat instead of 3 and a 12 hatcher will better be canceling or he will get crippled. (note that if he is smart and cancels you only have a slight advantage, if any at all) However, you got the following disadvantages: 1. Forget expanding 2. You cant tech as fast The more common 8 rax 9 depot lies in between but lacks orientation as it doesnt have the sting of a 7 rax nor the versatility of a 9 rax. I'm a bit surprised of its popularity since i consider it the weakest of the 3. We also got the uber 6 rax 8 depot 9 marine in our arsenal for those times that no matter what we try, our "all-ins" keep transposing into playable midgames and we need to feel some adrenaline. There is also the old school favorite of testie and others 2x10 rax at once which feels very strong, both in marine count and economy. I havent used it much but it usually ends up annihilating the single sunken + any zerglings with a formidable 8-10 marine + 8-10 scvs attack. | ||
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sataNik[pG]
Greece722 Posts
On October 15 2011 17:45 Valashu wrote: I approve of cheesing, it forces your enamy to be predictable and lets you handle a specific set of problems. Fucking cheese for 1000 games and then go macro like a boss and win us a tournament. Edit:ohshi....did I just post in the BW forums? Lol man, you got to be playing poker: "Sell a tight image, then steal them like there's no tomorrow" or "Be the monkiest of all and see them fighting each other who will ship it all to you first" Imagine how solid I'm lately playing, if I'm advertising cheese so much. xD | ||
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craz3d
Bulgaria856 Posts
On October 15 2011 15:02 Demonhunter04 wrote: Well what a lot of people are saying in this thread is that players have long since learned how to defend such early aggression even with openings like 12 hatch, and because of that, it's often better to not rush and instead to take a fast expansion of your own, because in theory the better player is more likely to win the longer the game goes on. I'm not saying that such "cheese" is completely unviable or makes for boring games, though. On the contrary, the occasional cheese makes for exciting games (in pro matches) because what's about to happen next is less predictable. I personally believe that one of the things that makes watching pro games so entertaining is the anticipation that comes with not knowing whats going to happen next. He's is trying to say that no, not everyone has learned to defend all-in plays if his cheese/strategic plays work. And if the better player wins, why can't the better player cheese the fuck out of the inferior player and finish the game faster? Whatever, all this arguing is pointless, why don't we set up some showmatch with Satanik vs TL and see who's right :D. Commentary by Sayle of course! | ||
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Muff2n
United Kingdom250 Posts
On October 15 2011 17:59 sataNik[pG] wrote: If you do a 9 rax 10 depot build you are just 1 scv behind the 9 depot 11 rax, plus you got the following advantages: 1. You are cheeseproof 2. You can tech fast with 1 rax without needing to wall in (not losing mining time from scvs to build depots far from base+ depots not giving target) 3. You can expand earlier if zerg makes some zerglings, as you have higher marine count. 4. You can harass his natural with the threat of making a bunker, but without bringing scvs as you only need the scouting scv and maybe 1 more to force drone defense. Your group of 3 marines can snipe some drones and safely retreat home. He made zerglings, he lost mining time, job done. 5. You may kill the a scouting overlord at an unexpected timing If you do a 7 rax 8.5 depot build you got 4 marines at his nat instead of 3 and a 12 hatcher will better be canceling or he will get crippled. (note that if he is smart and cancels you only have a slight advantage, if any at all) However, you got the following disadvantages: 1. Forget expanding 2. You cant tech as fast The more common 8 rax 9 depot lies in between but lacks orientation as it doesnt have the sting of a 7 rax nor the versatility of a 9 rax. I'm a bit surprised of its popularity since i consider it the weakest of the 3. We also got the uber 6 rax 8 depot 9 marine in our arsenal for those times that no matter what we try, our "all-ins" keep transposing into playable midgames and we need to feel some adrenaline. There is also the old school favorite of testie and others 2x10 rax at once which feels very strong, both in marine count and economy. I havent used it much but it usually ends up annihilating the single sunken + any zerglings with a formidable 8-10 marine + 8-10 scvs attack. 9rax (before depo), if its not 2 scv behind it is at least 1.5. 1. In base 11 rax is pretty much cheese proof. 2. You got this but I'm not sure it is worth an scv (with more to come to enable fast tech I would imagine). 3. Not really. 4 yes you got this. 5 yes if he has bad scout patterns. His ovies should be 8 rax proof! There is a good reasons why T 11 raxes every game. Man what I struggle with is that you make certain comments that are hard to deny... like if you scout a weakness that will win the game... deviate and go kill him. Well sure I would, but in bw this means you need to have been going a flexible build, scout his weakenss in time and then have the ability to respond and win. Flexible builds will cost you either in defence or in economy. So will super fast scouting though I think good scouting does pay off. Then there is this belief that you will insta win. I wonder how much of a gamble your opponents are doing! If you can scout their weakness, go allin and win then I think they were just doing economic cheese and it is ironic that they call you the cheeser when you punish them duly. More likely, they have some fighting chance in defence. If your scouting early, a reasonable alternative would be to pause army production and expand yourself. All this is a reasonable occurance in the current bw ear of mid game play. On the other hand, all the builds you are recommending don;t even get there. 1 basing rax before supply build orders are these flexible builds that require good scouting (i.e. way before I need to scout doing my 1 rax cc BO) that cripple you economically. If you can go 2x rax on 10 and win, then ok, your opponents obviously don't understand the proper defence (or your WCG, B rank after 3 years out of the game uber skills are winning this for you and not the strategy!) but really early game aggression should be able to be countered np. e.g. sunks vs unupgraded marines is a very costly defence and the scv's lost cutting and not making a cc will leave the T behind. Similarly to you saying you can 2 gate PvZ and nonstop probes into expansion. This means you're not taking a gas until super late into the game and will have crippled yourself. Some other times you maybe playing a cheese while appearing to play standard. Show muta and go hydra, comsat scans spire and make drones instead of muta, laugh as he turrets up and you make transition to lurk ling defiler scourge. Finally some of the stuff you say like faking 9 muta into drone instead, is a straight up lose me the game button! You mean to have the option of building 9 muta which will facilitate harass, map control, the ability to take a 3rd and provide defence (all good things). But instead you choose drones that won;t pressure the T, wont get you an expand (so will mine minerals...) and won't even get you off to lurker ling properly, as hydra production will be super late. A decent T will not have built excessive turrets, current metgame he will be pressuring you (think +1 5 rax) and will probably force you to be making the static defence to live. tldr: yes seizing on a weakness is good. It doesn't have to be aggressively, if aggression is not a sure win you for. Flexibility will cost you. The builds you are advocating seem to cut too much too early. I do enjoy defendinvg vs aggression as it teaches me about holes in my defencive play. I'll happily play some games vs you if you would like so you can demonstrate my ignorance to me. | ||
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sataNik[pG]
Greece722 Posts
Here's a small replay pack which will better clarify some of my viewpoints in action, it cant be done otherwise. http://www.2shared.com/file/mcdjIbCy/sample.html I will be happy to play a few games vs anyone who wants to | ||
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HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
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NotJumperer
United States1371 Posts
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