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On October 14 2011 08:58 2Pacalypse- wrote:Holy shit it's Satanik! <3 old school BWers, especially when they come back to playing BW  I sorta agree. A fine tuned, well prepared cheese is so awesome to watch and I agree that players on ICCup should play more "strategically" every now and then instead of solely working on their mechanics. But I also think that it's more fun to do these kind of things when you're playing against a same opponent for a lot of games, instead of random players on ladder. This way you can see each game how your opponent reacts and adapts to your "strategies".
Yeah I agree with this. If you cheese every ladder opponent, you are rolling the dice with respect to the greed>cautious>cheese>greed dynamic. The better overall player, in my opinion, will win more often if both players play a macro game and forgo the RPS. If you are selecting a particular cheese vs a particular opponent then this in my eyes is much more skillful.
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On October 14 2011 08:26 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 07:20 sataNik[pG] wrote:On October 14 2011 07:08 ArvickHero wrote:
It sounds like you're saying strategies are stagnant nowadays, which is definitely not the case. Excuse me? 9/10 games pvz toss opens up with forge nexus. where are the numerous 1 base strats? or 2 gate exp? 4/5 games tvz terran goes 1 rax cc into mass m&m or mech. Where are the amazing 1 base plays: 1 rax acad fact pushes? 2 rax fact acad? or the 3 rax +1 sunk break timing? or the 2 rax m&m + dropship? or the vessel rush +1 m&m + tanks scoop? if u think these are invalid or weak strategies let me prove you wrong. almost every zerg goes for mutalisks tvz. nuff said excuse me? What you listed are openings, only a fraction of strategies. Openings are mostly mapped out because they're easy to calculate and figure out. The real fine strategy lies in the early-mid/midgame, which is still constantly evolving
I also think early-mid variance is too narrow and im talking mostly about iccup, not pro-leagues.
some examples:
PvZ reavers underused, carriers underused, Dweb underused, Red archons underused.
Just the mindless mass unit + secure expo pattern which is easily countered by defilers or mass lategame drops.
TvP: the popularized by flash 3-3 turtle terran style is not as strong as it looks but it can be punished almost exclusively in very long games. 2 fact pushes are not weak all of a sudden and
5-6 factory timing push after expo is as strong as ever, but they both seem out of fashion.
Not to mention the insanely strong tank+ mass m&m (zeal-goon bane) after expo. Who does these things now? only me im afraid. And dont tell me about reavers, only fast storm hard counters it.
ZvP: zerg does not NEED to take an immediate 3rd in response to fast expo p, contrary to common belief. He can validly tech, power drones, rush or plan for lategame with early evolution chambers while being at 2 base.
TvZ: Terran seems to think he can somehow perform a miracle and win a lategame vs defilers, ultras or whatever, giving all the time of the world to zerg. Dont let the occasional lategame wins of monster skilled terrans fool you: THE motto is: A good zerg is a dead zerg
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On October 14 2011 08:58 2Pacalypse- wrote:Holy shit it's Satanik! <3 old school BWers, especially when they come back to playing BW I sorta agree. A fine tuned, well prepared cheese is so awesome to watch and I agree that players on ICCup should play more "strategically" every now and then instead of solely working on their mechanics. But I also think that it's more fun to do these kind of things when you're playing against a same opponent for a lot of games, instead of random players on ladder. This way you can see each game how your opponent reacts and adapts to your "strategies".
Exactly. In a series of games vs the same player there is a need for variance.
But! When a massive amount of players wrongly thinks that one play is correct, another one incorrect
and is completely oblivious to a 3rd, when in truth all 3 are valid, it makes it all too easy for me to
notice the tread, abuse it and get negative comments in the end instead of ggs.
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Australia7069 Posts
After reading all of your concerns I've found your problem. The problem is you're playing on iccup. Go play on fish and enjoy a more fullfilling set of strategies.
I get 2 facced in some form or another like every 2nd game. 4-6 facs to punish my builds are common and so is a 3 base 2-1 timing push strategy (its not 3-3 btw)
You seem to have taken some specific games and blown them out of proportion. I actually played like, 40 or so games on iccup recently. I found more of my pvz's were 2 base strategic plays (or hidden 3rds, etc), with drops being utilised against me alot.
myself, i was using a variety of 1 and 2 base builds, from a standard FFE into sair/speedlot timing attacks, to 1 base stargate into goon/reaver or scout into 3 gate goon, and in some cases going 2 gate at my nat to put on pressure and expanding behind it.
Maybe its unfortunate all your opponents played straight up, but if you went and got up to a decent rank you're probably capable of on fish you'd most likely find people who would play straight up and deflect your cheese, or be cheesing against you, but doing it with killer effficiency, as opposed to some of the cheese i see in tournaments, or face on iccup which is often non-optimal.
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don't worry satanik, kiante "cheesed" me on iccup
i went 1 rax cc tvp. he proxy 3 gate in middle. he 4 gate all in
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Australia7069 Posts
thats not cheese. Thats just proper countering of your build order. go listen to the nony interview from TSL2
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I completely agree with you, modern BW has gotten stale and uninteresting. The metagame has pretty much been "solved" or so we like to think, when in reality there is always room for improvement. It's always great to experiment or try something new or fascinating, just to keep it interesting. I actually like to mind control enemy units and do crazy stuff like that sometimes (some people might say it's BM), but it's really a lot of fun. There is no point in thinking in a straight line, old school BWers thought outside the box to get to where we are today, for example muta micro was a glitch that progamers exploited but now it's a standard feature of the metagame.
In summary, I just want to say
We should never be afraid to experiment or try something new.
GR* Post
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Korea (South)11584 Posts
Oh wow Satanik, where have you been? I miss watching your replays 6-7 years ago.
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On October 14 2011 09:09 Wohmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 08:58 2Pacalypse- wrote:Holy shit it's Satanik! <3 old school BWers, especially when they come back to playing BW I sorta agree. A fine tuned, well prepared cheese is so awesome to watch and I agree that players on ICCup should play more "strategically" every now and then instead of solely working on their mechanics. But I also think that it's more fun to do these kind of things when you're playing against a same opponent for a lot of games, instead of random players on ladder. This way you can see each game how your opponent reacts and adapts to your "strategies". Yeah I agree with this. If you cheese every ladder opponent, you are rolling the dice with respect to the greed>cautious>cheese>greed dynamic. The better overall player, in my opinion, will win more often if both players play a macro game and forgo the RPS. If you are selecting a particular cheese vs a particular opponent then this in my eyes is much more skillful.
Mind you that if I am cheesing almost every ladder its not because im in love with cheese, its only because i abuse the current trend of greed. When caution was the trend i was the one to greed.
That was often the case when i had a cheesy image and people were too cautious when playing vs
me.
As for now, there is nothing that i can do better than to punish cheese with cautious play.
When cheese gets me, i really give kudos to the guy. Because he is clever and he tricked me.
Dont get me wrong, I surely respect the skill of dumb macro spamming to victory but there are other things in bw too.
What im doing here is simply pointing out the ill concept that cheese is something low, or else i cant explain the all too common negativity and lack of manner after short games.
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On September 28 2010 05:46 Ver wrote:SC mapped out? Few innovators/innovations? Are we watching the same games here? The late 2009/2010 season has been one of the most innovative years ever! There's a large amount of exploring left in many of these systems. For Terran alone (listing general systems, not the absurd amount of variations): TvZ- Safe 14cc on 2 player maps a dozen different variations of bio -> mech and vice versa with a lot more room for further exploration (this is huge!) Flexible Valkyrie first openings that can transition into many different possibilities A totally new approach vs 2 hatch muta with aggressive marine pushes (changes a lot) 7 Rax (and overlord snipes from it) 4 rax -> triple port wraith 2 rax acad allins 3rd denial vs 3 hatch muta (very unexplored and complex) 2 base allin vs crazy zerg (3 hatch muta to ultra) Revolutionary lategame defense based off of aggressive vessel raids, covering infantry, and massed tanks (probably the biggest change in years along with bio-mech transitions) 12pool Lair with a very different and expansive early/midgame Improvements on overall mech play (several new midgame options) Heavy and consistent Vulture/Valkyrie!? (totally unexplored) TvP- Many different 3 base timings Many variations in the 2 fact after cc system both from siege expand and from FD 12 Nexus variations and emphasis 1 fact mine double expand in response to 12 Nexus New midgame Carrier transition ideas both before and after arbiters Rax Expand!! (a huge system with tons more exploration but right now there are many variations already) + Show Spoiler [Some specific games] +As long as the pro scene stays alive in courts BW is fine. SC2 is just new (and getting many temporary tournies/players because of this) and people need a break from BW. Give half a year/year and things should be looking better.
Unless I missed I skimmed these links incorrectly I don't see this triple port wraith build this guy is talking about. Anyone know what match that was?
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Australia7069 Posts
as long as you're relying on a coin toss of not getting scouted to win games you'll most likely be up against people who'll react negatively when they lose to it. Learn to live with it or move to fish where their insults in broken english are hillarious
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Australia7069 Posts
On October 14 2011 09:39 mutantmagnet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 05:46 Ver wrote:SC mapped out? Few innovators/innovations? Are we watching the same games here? The late 2009/2010 season has been one of the most innovative years ever! There's a large amount of exploring left in many of these systems. For Terran alone (listing general systems, not the absurd amount of variations): TvZ- Safe 14cc on 2 player maps a dozen different variations of bio -> mech and vice versa with a lot more room for further exploration (this is huge!) Flexible Valkyrie first openings that can transition into many different possibilities A totally new approach vs 2 hatch muta with aggressive marine pushes (changes a lot) 7 Rax (and overlord snipes from it) 4 rax -> triple port wraith 2 rax acad allins 3rd denial vs 3 hatch muta (very unexplored and complex) 2 base allin vs crazy zerg (3 hatch muta to ultra) Revolutionary lategame defense based off of aggressive vessel raids, covering infantry, and massed tanks (probably the biggest change in years along with bio-mech transitions) 12pool Lair with a very different and expansive early/midgame Improvements on overall mech play (several new midgame options) Heavy and consistent Vulture/Valkyrie!? (totally unexplored) TvP- Many different 3 base timings Many variations in the 2 fact after cc system both from siege expand and from FD 12 Nexus variations and emphasis 1 fact mine double expand in response to 12 Nexus New midgame Carrier transition ideas both before and after arbiters Rax Expand!! (a huge system with tons more exploration but right now there are many variations already) + Show Spoiler [Some specific games] +As long as the pro scene stays alive in courts BW is fine. SC2 is just new (and getting many temporary tournies/players because of this) and people need a break from BW. Give half a year/year and things should be looking better. Unless I missed I skimmed these links incorrectly I don't see this triple port wraith build this guy is talking about. Anyone know what match that was?
hiya vs free on triathlon
oh my bad the tvz one, yeah i dunno sorry D: sounds like an upmagic game tho
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On October 14 2011 09:30 Kiante wrote:
thats not cheese. Thats just proper countering of your build order. go listen to the nony interview from TSL2
I would personally qualify any "all-in" as a "Cheese" but that's a different matter. isn't the 4 gate more suited for 1 fact FEs?
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On October 14 2011 09:38 sataNik[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 09:09 Wohmfg wrote:On October 14 2011 08:58 2Pacalypse- wrote:Holy shit it's Satanik! <3 old school BWers, especially when they come back to playing BW I sorta agree. A fine tuned, well prepared cheese is so awesome to watch and I agree that players on ICCup should play more "strategically" every now and then instead of solely working on their mechanics. But I also think that it's more fun to do these kind of things when you're playing against a same opponent for a lot of games, instead of random players on ladder. This way you can see each game how your opponent reacts and adapts to your "strategies". Yeah I agree with this. If you cheese every ladder opponent, you are rolling the dice with respect to the greed>cautious>cheese>greed dynamic. The better overall player, in my opinion, will win more often if both players play a macro game and forgo the RPS. If you are selecting a particular cheese vs a particular opponent then this in my eyes is much more skillful. Mind you that if I am cheesing almost every ladder its not because im in love with cheese, its only because i abuse the current trend of greed. When caution was the trend i was the one to greed. That was often the case when i had a cheesy image and people were too cautious when playing vs me. As for now, there is nothing that i can do better than to punish cheese with cautious play. When cheese gets me, i really give kudos to the guy. Because he is clever and he tricked me. Dont get me wrong, I surely respect the skill of dumb macro spamming to victory but there are other things in bw too. What im doing here is simply pointing out the ill concept that cheese is something low, or else i cant explain the all too common negativity and lack of manner after short games.
If there is a trend of greed then you are doing nothing wrong, I'd only take issue if the games were split between greed and caution because then you'd be flipping a coin.
I still am of the opinion that cheese is a lower skill than late game and macro ability. If I looked at the best cheeser in the world and a macro player with comparative skill, I would say the macro player was the better player (impossible to objectively measure skill in this instance). This is because I think a macro player will win more games than a cheese player, because the skillset of a macro player is much wider than the skillset required to be a good cheese player.
Just my opinion though.
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Australia7069 Posts
On October 14 2011 09:41 Shotcoder wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 09:30 Kiante wrote:
thats not cheese. Thats just proper countering of your build order. go listen to the nony interview from TSL2 I would personally qualify any "all-in" as a "Cheese" but that's a different matter. isn't the 4 gate more suited for 1 fact FEs?
no. you gas steal the terran, or see a 1 rax FE. they put a bunker at their nat, you drop 3 gates somewhere near their base. get like 3-4 goons hitting their bunker and dont let a scout out of their base (so watch the goons you have at their front). they have like 4 scv's repairing, you pump out 4 zealots, send them in, bunker dies, zealots close on the 1 tank they have by then, tank dies as zealots rip up scv's and your next wave of goon/zealot kills them. a 1 fac fe would probably just rape it with mines or siege, which come out much faster
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On October 14 2011 09:25 Kiante wrote:
After reading all of your concerns I've found your problem. The problem is you're playing on iccup. Go play on fish and enjoy a more fullfilling set of strategies.
I get 2 facced in some form or another like every 2nd game. 4-6 facs to punish my builds are common and so is a 3 base 2-1 timing push strategy (its not 3-3 btw)
You seem to have taken some specific games and blown them out of proportion. I actually played like, 40 or so games on iccup recently. I found more of my pvz's were 2 base strategic plays (or hidden 3rds, etc), with drops being utilised against me alot.
myself, i was using a variety of 1 and 2 base builds, from a standard FFE into sair/speedlot timing attacks, to 1 base stargate into goon/reaver or scout into 3 gate goon, and in some cases going 2 gate at my nat to put on pressure and expanding behind it.
Maybe its unfortunate all your opponents played straight up, but if you went and got up to a decent rank you're probably capable of on fish you'd most likely find people who would play straight up and deflect your cheese, or be cheesing against you, but doing it with killer effficiency, as opposed to some of the cheese i see in tournaments, or face on iccup which is often non-optimal.
When i was playing neogamei back in the day i had the most healthy enviroment for intersting play.
Maybe fish is something like that as you say, but unfortunately i tried it and the games were laggy. From what you say, the korean metagame seems fairly healthy, I would also like to see that in iccup.
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On October 14 2011 06:56 Kiante wrote:
a good macro player will block your silly cheese and you'll get stalled at some point.
Would be good to see the account you're "going up the ladder" on.
But, do you really think you'll improve cheesing? You basically toss a coin and pray they dont scout/are prepared for whatever you're doing
On October 14 2011 09:30 Kiante wrote:
thats not cheese. Thats just proper countering of your build order. go listen to the nony interview from TSL2
You just TOTALLY contradicted ALL of you're previous posts with this post, I hope you go back and read everything you wrote. Because after that, all of you're previous posts make literally NO sense. and also, 4gate zeal PvT? rofl please.
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On October 14 2011 09:40 Kiante wrote:
as long as you're relying on a coin toss of not getting scouted to win games you'll most likely be up against people who'll react negatively when they lose to it. Learn to live with it or move to fish where their insults in broken english are hillarious
You gotta be kidding me, if i was accused of cheese only when my victories relied upon not being scouted, i wouldnt even start the subject. Im telling you: no matter what i do which deviates from
the norm is percieved as cheese.
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On October 14 2011 09:43 Wohmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 09:38 sataNik[pG] wrote:On October 14 2011 09:09 Wohmfg wrote:On October 14 2011 08:58 2Pacalypse- wrote:Holy shit it's Satanik! <3 old school BWers, especially when they come back to playing BW I sorta agree. A fine tuned, well prepared cheese is so awesome to watch and I agree that players on ICCup should play more "strategically" every now and then instead of solely working on their mechanics. But I also think that it's more fun to do these kind of things when you're playing against a same opponent for a lot of games, instead of random players on ladder. This way you can see each game how your opponent reacts and adapts to your "strategies". Yeah I agree with this. If you cheese every ladder opponent, you are rolling the dice with respect to the greed>cautious>cheese>greed dynamic. The better overall player, in my opinion, will win more often if both players play a macro game and forgo the RPS. If you are selecting a particular cheese vs a particular opponent then this in my eyes is much more skillful. Mind you that if I am cheesing almost every ladder its not because im in love with cheese, its only because i abuse the current trend of greed. When caution was the trend i was the one to greed. That was often the case when i had a cheesy image and people were too cautious when playing vs me. As for now, there is nothing that i can do better than to punish cheese with cautious play. When cheese gets me, i really give kudos to the guy. Because he is clever and he tricked me. Dont get me wrong, I surely respect the skill of dumb macro spamming to victory but there are other things in bw too. What im doing here is simply pointing out the ill concept that cheese is something low, or else i cant explain the all too common negativity and lack of manner after short games. If there is a trend of greed then you are doing nothing wrong, I'd only take issue if the games were split between greed and caution because then you'd be flipping a coin. I still am of the opinion that cheese is a lower skill than late game and macro ability. If I looked at the best cheeser in the world and a macro player with comparative skill, I would say the macro player was the better player (impossible to objectively measure skill in this instance). This is because I think a macro player will win more games than a cheese player, because the skillset of a macro player is much wider than the skillset required to be a good cheese player. Just my opinion though.
Wasn't boxer a cheeser? Wasn't he the best for so many years?
I think the term "cheeser" is annoying, it should be "strategical player" instead.
Or maybe to define cheese as pure gamble, can we call cheese a super solid strategical 2 base all-in of 2-2 graded toss units vs zerg? If yes, we got a terminology problem.
Also as regarding to macro i can say that besides the economy macro there is also the massing unit macro. I'm often being accused of mineral hacking because i produce too many units with too few bases, lol.
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10387 Posts
On October 14 2011 09:16 sataNik[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 08:26 ArvickHero wrote:On October 14 2011 07:20 sataNik[pG] wrote:On October 14 2011 07:08 ArvickHero wrote:
It sounds like you're saying strategies are stagnant nowadays, which is definitely not the case. Excuse me? 9/10 games pvz toss opens up with forge nexus. where are the numerous 1 base strats? or 2 gate exp? 4/5 games tvz terran goes 1 rax cc into mass m&m or mech. Where are the amazing 1 base plays: 1 rax acad fact pushes? 2 rax fact acad? or the 3 rax +1 sunk break timing? or the 2 rax m&m + dropship? or the vessel rush +1 m&m + tanks scoop? if u think these are invalid or weak strategies let me prove you wrong. almost every zerg goes for mutalisks tvz. nuff said excuse me? What you listed are openings, only a fraction of strategies. Openings are mostly mapped out because they're easy to calculate and figure out. The real fine strategy lies in the early-mid/midgame, which is still constantly evolving I also think early-mid variance is too narrow and im talking mostly about iccup, not pro-leagues. some examples: PvZ reavers underused, carriers underused, Dweb underused, Red archons underused. Just the mindless mass unit + secure expo pattern which is easily countered by defilers or mass lategame drops. TvP: the popularized by flash 3-3 turtle terran style is not as strong as it looks but it can be punished almost exclusively in very long games. 2 fact pushes are not weak all of a sudden and 5-6 factory timing push after expo is as strong as ever, but they both seem out of fashion. Not to mention the insanely strong tank+ mass m&m (zeal-goon bane) after expo. Who does these things now? only me im afraid. And dont tell me about reavers, only fast storm hard counters it. ZvP: zerg does not NEED to take an immediate 3rd in response to fast expo p, contrary to common belief. He can validly tech, power drones, rush or plan for lategame with early evolution chambers while being at 2 base. TvZ: Terran seems to think he can somehow perform a miracle and win a lategame vs defilers, ultras or whatever, giving all the time of the world to zerg. Dont let the occasional lategame wins of monster skilled terrans fool you: THE motto is: A good zerg is a dead zerg
if we're talking about ICCup then probably yea, strategies are stagnant because of players like Artosis and Idra popularizing the mindset "Macro good Cheese bad" (bullshit imo).
but to explain why some units are underused, in PvZ Reavers require a high amount of skill to use effectively, and are somewhat map specific, and Carriers are only viable as transition from Sair/Reaver on certain maps. DWeb and Dark Archons should be used more but since progamers do not use them often, foreigners don't either lol. Zergs do a lot of strange things on ICCup, so in my experience PvZ is always interesting and different every game ..
also I would agree that I dislike the term "cheese", but rather call it "strategical play". BW is a strategy game after all, no need to ostracize those who use certain strategies ;P
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