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What's your point?
Paul Sams Interview: post-negotiation with KeSPA - Page 5
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maybenexttime
Poland5651 Posts
What's your point? | ||
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
He means to say we will eventually cave in and play sc2. Ive played beta and played sc2 usimg guest pass, but am still yet to purchase the game. I continue to play an spectate bw because theres no incentive to switch to an inferior game...bear in mind theres no nostalgia here.. I became enthralled with probw in late 2009 when I stumbled upon commentaries in search for news of sc2's launch. is it odd that my favourite progamer stork's greatest highs were pre 2009 lol. | ||
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_Quasar_
Russian Federation4405 Posts
 ) was more intense in terms of intrigue than 2010? Maybe only the years when Boxer and Yellow were in their prime... I suppose... And this just inspired many and many players to play and raise their skill... Look at how ridiculously good the PokerStrategy TSL 2 was! This was maybe the most promising year in the Starcraft since its dawn and its becoming a "way of life" in Korea!And now you tell us to "just forget our old toys and not be stubborn and see something new"? When SC1 is actually NEW for many? It's like football or basketball - it's all studied and analysed almost everywhere, but as there's always new blood - there's no certainty that it's truly figured out - anything can be proven wrong by those arrogant newcomers. And you tell us THIS? Lol what. Why we should develop the new game, and why anyone should (while it has so much flaws, BW never had such many flaws and had the same number of patches in like 5-10 years as SC2 has already!)? While we could all invest those efforts into a BETTER game of THE Starcraft - Starcraft Brood War? It's nowhere near being figured out, everyone now goes WTF on the strategies that players use - especially Neo.G_Soulkey, great, while their terran friends Flash and Fantasy are remarkable in this aspect too. Why, really? I see no reason. And the Blizzards being such douchebags with bullshiting fans by such interviews don't provide any additional desire to go and help to raise the SC2 scene. | ||
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Nemesis
Canada2568 Posts
On May 28 2011 11:04 Ribbon wrote: What's the moral difference between Blizzard having complete control over the scene and Kespa having complete control over the scene? Two reasons: 1.Kespa is all about BW while Blizzard is all about SC2 2.Kespa is a not-for-profit organization who actually cares about esports while Blizzard is for-profit who only cares about making money and hasn't really done anything to support esports besides mere words. The only way that blizzard is really going to "convert" bw people to sc2 is if they kill the bw proscene which they have already failed at, even then it's not guranteed that people will actually move on to sc2. I'm curious to see what their next fail card is. They just fail to realize that people are just not interested in an inferior product, even if it's NEWER. They keep emphasizing newer as if that newer = better. /sigh | ||
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RaLakedaimon
United States1564 Posts
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_Quasar_
Russian Federation4405 Posts
On May 29 2011 04:06 RaLakedaimon wrote: "Out of all RTS games Blizzard developed, there's none that matches StarCraft in quality". They needed to especially remark the obvious: "Including SC2". | ||
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zobz
Canada2175 Posts
On May 29 2011 03:38 Nemesis wrote: That SC2 is an easier way to make money than BW is simply a reflection of the market that exists for "e-sports" outside of Korea. Just look at the best players to come out and play Broodwar from the international scene. Almost all if not all of them switched to SC2 the moment it was released because they thought somehow that the fresh strategic start of a completely unsolved game would let them better compete with the Koreans. It sort of did for a very short while, and then they discovered that Koreans were better at BW for deeper reasons than could so conveniently be overcome. It's their work ethic. Korean progamers have a much higher propensity towards the star athlete attitude in regards to e-sports, where they recognize the importance of a practice, practice, practice mentallity if you want to make a career out of sports. Whereas the non-Kors are still constantly just looking for an easy fix, trying to find their dream life where they just play videogames much as they always did as kids and actually get payed to do it, only hoping to profit off of somebody else's work (the game designers) or someone else's stupidity (fans/sponsors). In essence even the "pros" outside of Korea still can't bring themselves to take the game seriously.Two reasons: 1.Kespa is all about BW while Blizzard is all about SC2 2.Kespa is a not-for-profit organization who actually cares about esports while Blizzard is for-profit who only cares about making money and hasn't really done anything to support esports besides mere words. The only way that blizzard is really going to "convert" bw people to sc2 is if they kill the bw proscene which they have already failed at, even then it's not guranteed that people will actually move on to sc2. I'm curious to see what their next fail card is. They just fail to realize that people are just not interested in an inferior product, even if it's NEWER. They keep emphasizing newer as if that newer = better. /sigh This is the sad truth about the viability of real e-sports outside of Korea. To blame Blizzard for this because they "just want to make money" is very immature. If for some reason e-sports is so important that the world would be a substantially better place if it existed internationally, well think about it. E-sports revolves around videogames, videogame design is an industry. The industry is changing because of the culture of the people who play videogames, by and large. There was a time where somebody, the existence of whom you depend on absolutely unless you want to take over their job, designed a game that was right for e-sports because they thought it was in their best interest. This is a rare opportunity. The game's been around for 12 years, and in all that time you failed to cultivate it into something popular enough to be sustainably profitable. You missed your chance. Just enjoy Korean BW for the next couple years until Blizzard decides it is in their best interest to kill off the competition which they enabled. It is not morally justifiable to abuse their rights to what they created, regardless of whether you think they're using those rights badly, by whatever reasoning. | ||
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Nemesis
Canada2568 Posts
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On May 29 2011 03:38 Nemesis wrote: Kespa is a not-for-profit organization who actually cares about esports The NFL is a non-profit organization, too, so I don't see how that's relevant. Kespa "cares about e-sports" in the same way McDonald's cares about burgers. | ||
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Nemesis
Canada2568 Posts
On May 29 2011 07:13 Ribbon wrote: The NFL is a non-profit organization, too, so I don't see how that's relevant. Kespa "cares about e-sports" in the same way McDonald's cares about burgers. Tell me, what has blizzard done to support esports besides making games? And why don't you compare that to what kespa has done? | ||
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zobz
Canada2175 Posts
On May 29 2011 07:10 Nemesis wrote: I don't know why you are quoting my post, because I am in no way blaming blizzard for the viability of e-sports outside of Korea. The only blame that I am putting on them is trying to bring down the bw scene and well trying to force sc2 down people's throat(I couldn't care less about this if this doesn't include harming the BW scene). I understand that the foreigner mentality is just not viable for esports, but wth does that have to do with my post? The only thing I care about is enjoying my korean BW. My problem with your post was that you cited Blizzard being for-profit as a moral distinction between them and KeSPA. That was either a very careless choice of words or you actually believe that problems like this should be solved by removing those who would respond to the market instead of by changing the market. | ||
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Nemesis
Canada2568 Posts
On May 29 2011 07:32 zobz wrote: My problem with your post was that you cited Blizzard being for-profit as a moral distinction between them and KeSPA. That was either a very careless choice of words or you actually believe that problems like this should be solved by removing those who would respond to the market instead of by changing the market. Indeed, it might have been poor choice of words on my part. But my point still stands which is Blizzard hasn't really done much to support esports but still wants to take the credit and control over it. Edit: I still don't see how esports outside of korea fit into the discussion though. | ||
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
Now i am aware that these people put in hours to practice as well, but being involved in competitive DotA in the past, and seeing the Pro Brood War scene now, i dont see how they can be put in the same dimension.. Imo "e-Sports" outside of Korea is still in its infancy stage at best.. And people really need to act more like professionals if they want it to become a viable job in the future.. Defnly doesnt seem like the case right now. | ||
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
On May 29 2011 07:32 zobz wrote: My problem with your post was that you cited Blizzard being for-profit as a moral distinction between them and KeSPA. That was either a very careless choice of words or you actually believe that problems like this should be solved by removing those who would respond to the market instead of by changing the market. Well then let's examine why Kespa is labeled not for profit? Hmmm seems they do have revenue from broadcasts, then doesn't that make them for profit? WRONG They are NFP because all revenue gained is directly invested back into the eSports scene not limited to proBW. Therefore the dichotomy that Nemesis made between NFP Kespa and for-profit Acti-Lizzard does have merit and is perfectly valid. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
There are plenty of koreans that have tried it at PCBangs and thought it was stupid. Even Jaedong gave it a shot and was like "wtf no muta micro?". | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On May 29 2011 07:15 Nemesis wrote: Tell me, what has blizzard done to support esports besides making games? And why don't you compare that to what kespa has done? Can I count GOM, there? Also, since you are highly pro-BW, do you count Kespa forbidding BW players from playing SC2, and preventing those games that DID happen from being broadcast as "for" e-sports? Actually, can you maybe detail what KeSPA's done for e-sports for a noob like me? Besides incorporating it? While you right what I assume is a long list, I'll watch this GOM Avertatec game: http://www.gomtv.net/classic/vod/576 It's so great that KeSPA supported GOM in this tournament, which provided official English commentary to try and help expand Starcraft beyond Korea's borders (unlike those SC2 loving bastards at GOM!). I'm glad that's a thing that happened, instead of KeSPA trying to shut it down and leading to a massive shitstorm. That would've been sad. Well, that's not truly fair. They did that because GOM is allied with Blizzard. It's not like they have a habit of attacking or even shutting down leagues they don't like. KeSPA never ever ever bullied a popular Brood War tournament due to "IP rights". That would make them exactly the same as Blizzard! I'll also read these old team liquid threads about how awesome KeSPA is http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=93222 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=93226 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=92204 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=91487 | ||
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Legatus Lanius
2135 Posts
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zobz
Canada2175 Posts
On May 29 2011 12:39 ShadeR wrote: Well then let's examine why Kespa is labeled not for profit? Hmmm seems they do have revenue from broadcasts, then doesn't that make them for profit? WRONG They are NFP because all revenue gained is directly invested back into the eSports scene not limited to proBW. Therefore the dichotomy that Nemesis made between NFP Kespa and for-profit Acti-Lizzard does have merit and is perfectly valid. That KeSPA is non-profit does not validate what he said. You misunderstood my criticism entirely. | ||
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Nemesis
Canada2568 Posts
On May 29 2011 13:54 Ribbon wrote: Can I count GOM, there? Also, since you are highly pro-BW, do you count Kespa forbidding BW players from playing SC2, and preventing those games that DID happen from being broadcast as "for" e-sports? Actually, can you maybe detail what KeSPA's done for e-sports for a noob like me? Besides incorporating it? While you right what I assume is a long list, I'll watch this GOM Avertatec game: http://www.gomtv.net/classic/vod/576 It's so great that KeSPA supported GOM in this tournament, which provided official English commentary to try and help expand Starcraft beyond Korea's borders (unlike those SC2 loving bastards at GOM!). I'm glad that's a thing that happened, instead of KeSPA trying to shut it down and leading to a massive shitstorm. That would've been sad. Well, that's not truly fair. They did that because GOM is allied with Blizzard. It's not like they have a habit of attacking or even shutting down leagues they don't like. KeSPA never ever ever bullied a popular Brood War tournament due to "IP rights". That would make them exactly the same as Blizzard! I'll also read these old team liquid threads about how awesome KeSPA is http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=93222 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=93226 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=92204 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=91487 Nice chainsaw defense, but you still didn't answer my question which is what HAS blizzard done to support esports? All you have done is attack Kespa and not give any reason why Blizzard would be better at handling the esports scene. And no GOM does not count as it is a different company altogether that has partnered up with blizzard(I guess you can say in the same way that kespa has partnered up with blizzard now). /sigh stop with your uninformed bullshit please and go back to your side of the forums First of all, Kespa didn't try to shut down GOM. What happened is they just didn't include it as "official" games so it doesn't count towards their records and progamers don't have to play in it if they don't want to, and with most teams busy enough preparing for other leagues they just didn't have time to play in another tournament. Besides although I did like the english commentary, the quality of games in gom tournament was pretty horrible as players didn't really practice for it. Progamers just had their hands too full with OSL/MSL and proleague already. The reason that the tournament stopped was their was not enough players participating as a result of all of the above. And all of that has been happening in the gom tournaments before they even partnered up with Blizzard, their last tournament just happened to coincide with when they partnered up with Blizzard. Also, since you are highly pro-BW, do you count Kespa forbidding BW players from playing SC2, and preventing those games that DID happen from being broadcast as "for" e-sports? I don't see what there is to get angry about this. This is just common sense stuff, their job is a BW progamer, not an SC2 "pro"gamer. This is essentially just the players being prevented from having another job so they can dedicate all their time to their current job. Nothing special about it. It's not like you can play both games at high level at the same time anyways, your play will suffer with one or both game anyways. Yes, kespa does indeed sometimes do stupid stuff too, but they have essentially built the bw scene from the ground up(with the help of a lot of people of course). This is essentially the best thing that I found which puts a very general overview of what kespa does: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=149168 But essentially, they do all the behind the scenes stuff like making maps, organizing proleague, progaming license, etc. And yes the infamous ppp incident. Since you brought that up, you should also know that that rule was also changed right? Yes, kespa does have its fault, but my main point is that it is still a lot better than Blizzard who knows next to nothing about organizing these events and haven't contributed shit to esports except for saying "We want esports to be international" without even contributing a single dime to the esports industry unless you count hiring lawyers to sue kespa. TLDR; Unless you actually have decent arguments as to why Blizzard has done a lot more for esports than kespa, and actually having your facts straight, go back to your side of the forums and go whine about balance or something over there. /sigh why am I even writing out this long post for you, looking at your post history, it seems like you just like to incite flame wars with BW fans aka you like trolling people. Thanks for wasting my time, you did your job great -_- | ||
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whatusername
Canada1181 Posts
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