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On May 30 2011 11:43 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2011 18:52 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 29 2011 18:07 whatusername wrote:
im not anti-BW, in fact I love BW and dont like SC2. But I find it oddly hilarious how just 2 years ago everyone was hating on KESPA and some even wanted it gone, yet now everyone views kespa as the pro-BW superhero well kespa is a pro-bw superhero if they are compared to blizzard To the internet, everyone is either Hitler or Jesus, with no gray area whatsoever. This whole thing is just a muddy situation, and people try to turn it into black and white good vs evil. KeSPA are hardly saints. Neither are Blizzard. You can say Blizzard has done less for e-sports than KeSPA, has been shady, and that SC2 isn't as good as Brood War. I'd agree with you on that. But the way a lot of people argue it is that Blizzard is trying to kill e-sports, which they've done literally nothing for, so they can physically force people the play SC2, which is a random number generator for retarded people that don't even deserve oxygen, and that the only thing standing in the way is the heroic Aryan knights at KeSPA, who forged the BW scene from metal found in the fires of mount doom, and who maintain massive televised pro-leagues for absolutely no reason except that they're just kind of awesome like that. And the SC2 players come back and say that BW was never all that good and it's run by the mafia and viewed by old men with arthritis and the SC2 scene is all the hip kids who wear their pants backwards and are going to revolutionize the world by personally slaying Flash with the Frostmourne swords that those really cool bros at Blizzard sent them, because Blizzard actually cares about e-sports and growing it whereas KeSPA only wants to rule Korea like unto gods. Everyone's arguing with strawmen using strawmen, and I haven't exactly been above the fray myself. My little soap box is not on the moral high ground here. But I kind of wish this damn SC2/BW Blizzard/KeSPA thing would just fucking end and everyone would forget about it, and then we could get back to discussing the important things: NaDa is an incredibly sexy man, regardless of what game he plays. I hereby declare that this thread should cease being a flamewar, and instead become an open and flagrant display of frank homo-eroticism. Who's with me?
You piss me off so much. Do you really think you're the only one here who isn't a dumbass?
If you don't like the tread go away, quit giggling idiotically from your high horse.
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On June 01 2011 02:01 wassbix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 23:39 Ribbon wrote:
There is absolutely no way e-sports in the west can be as big as e-sports in Korea in the next 10 years, But I think that's setting the bar too high. The scene can pretty easily double in size in the next few years, and that's an important step towards getting to Korea-like levels eventually.
The United States alone has more than 6 times Korea's population. A sizable niche (like, say, anime, which is also something that only appears to nerds) here is still pretty goddamn huge.
I was in Michigan for Otakon last year, and there was an article in the local newpaper about how important Otakon was for the city, because the massive influx of dorks was a great boost to the economy. MLG Columbus is this week, I think. I wonder how the city of Columbus feels about the fact that MLG is bringing in a lot of tourism dollars. Maybe the mayor of Columbus might one day want to do a photo op about all the jobs that were created setting up the area. That leads to more coverage, which leads to awareness, which leads to acceptance, which leads to curiosity. Step by step by step, over a decade or two. And then the convention's five times as big as it used to be. And thus the prizes are bigger, so the competition is fiercer, so the games are better, so more people watch it. It's a virtuous cycle.
And as people get into e-sports, a small percentage of them will get into Brood War, specifically, as the game that started it all. Just because we can't turn America into Korea in a few months doesn't mean the growth of western e-sports is completely worthless.
Hell, maybe one day Korea will feel as though it's position as the e-sports capital of the world is threatened, and then KeSPA will really get serious about promoting e-sports, and trying to turn Brood War from a "Korean thing" into an international scene.
But now we're entering into pipe dreams, maybe. But man, if KeSPA felt it was worthwhile to try an foster a real international Brood War scene, that was serious, wouldn't that be so totally awesome?
Meh. I know that's not going to happen to that point. But I really do wish the BW scene would evangelize a little more. I don't even care if they say that BW is the One True E-Sport, and Flash is it's profit. I just want to see some growth. College BW tournaments.
I mean, for god's sakes, there's a college league for goddamn quidditch. I want to see a college league for e-sports. Brood War, SC2, whatever.
Edit: Oddly enough, I think Super Smash Brothers Melee was a huge influence on Western e-sports that'll be written about ten years from now, because when I went to UMASS Amherst a few years ago, everyone played Smash, and most people were aware of a competitive for-money scene (I had a Smash tourney player as a roommate Freshmen year). Even if it never "broke out", it gave a LOT of people exposure to the idea of competitive gaming for money or prizes as a real thing that happened. My dorm had a yearly Smash tournament, even. It did a lot of "priming", in large part because of it's casual-friendliness let to popularity, which led to lot of really tiny tournaments.
What kind of e-sports scene might we have now if people were hosting college Brood War tournaments at a low skill level back in 2003, setting up e-sports clubs, etc...and that just kept happening? I wonder. Sorry if I didnt come off clear, but the point I was trying to make wasn't that the west will never have Esport to the scale of Korea, but that Korea was the only place where Esport didn't pop as a bubble.
I think that's because every attempt to get e-sports going in the west has been about e-sports generically, rather than any one particular game. The absolute domination of MLG by SC2 may help with that a little. We'll see.
I think that all the games that have come and gone as e-sports in the west helped soften up people, particularly young people, to the concept of e-sports. And if the right game comes along, with enough marketing oomph behind it (either from a company, or form fans proselytizing), then e-sports can really grow on the fertile ground left behind by Halo or whatever.
On the topic of smash, oddly enough fighting game scene has remained mostly strong because people accept that new game will come and go and they just play for the shelf life of the game and move onto the next new fighting game (with few oddities like ST). I could see this being the case in the west, since many games have transferable skill. Though we'll never see something like God Young Ho exist simply because no one is a "professional gamer"
With fighting games, a lot of skills are I think more directly transferable from installment to installment than in other genres. While a lot of people say "people should be good at SC2 because we had ten years of BW", SC2 spent the last year unlearning a lot aspects of BW (armor upgrades are WAY better than weapon upgrades in SC2. The best way for Zerg to deal with mass air from a protoss is drops, and all the kind of little things that add up). If there's a Starcraft 3, it'll have the same problem. I don't mean to demean fighting games, and I'm sure there are tons of tiny little differences between Street Fighter 3 and 4 that add up pretty fast at the tippy-top levels, but it's not really the same "it's a year later and we kinda have this figured out" that an RTS sequel would have.
Luckily for e-sports, at least RTS games don't have that as a big issue. There's Brood War at the top, SC2 at a distant second (but gaining, albeit probably only to a less distant second), Warcraft 3 in third, and then a bunch of games no one cares about. Unlike, say, FPS games which seem to change every year.
On June 01 2011 02:34 gen.Sun wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 11:43 Ribbon wrote:On May 29 2011 18:52 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 29 2011 18:07 whatusername wrote:
im not anti-BW, in fact I love BW and dont like SC2. But I find it oddly hilarious how just 2 years ago everyone was hating on KESPA and some even wanted it gone, yet now everyone views kespa as the pro-BW superhero well kespa is a pro-bw superhero if they are compared to blizzard To the internet, everyone is either Hitler or Jesus, with no gray area whatsoever. This whole thing is just a muddy situation, and people try to turn it into black and white good vs evil. KeSPA are hardly saints. Neither are Blizzard. You can say Blizzard has done less for e-sports than KeSPA, has been shady, and that SC2 isn't as good as Brood War. I'd agree with you on that. But the way a lot of people argue it is that Blizzard is trying to kill e-sports, which they've done literally nothing for, so they can physically force people the play SC2, which is a random number generator for retarded people that don't even deserve oxygen, and that the only thing standing in the way is the heroic Aryan knights at KeSPA, who forged the BW scene from metal found in the fires of mount doom, and who maintain massive televised pro-leagues for absolutely no reason except that they're just kind of awesome like that. And the SC2 players come back and say that BW was never all that good and it's run by the mafia and viewed by old men with arthritis and the SC2 scene is all the hip kids who wear their pants backwards and are going to revolutionize the world by personally slaying Flash with the Frostmourne swords that those really cool bros at Blizzard sent them, because Blizzard actually cares about e-sports and growing it whereas KeSPA only wants to rule Korea like unto gods. Everyone's arguing with strawmen using strawmen, and I haven't exactly been above the fray myself. My little soap box is not on the moral high ground here. But I kind of wish this damn SC2/BW Blizzard/KeSPA thing would just fucking end and everyone would forget about it, and then we could get back to discussing the important things: NaDa is an incredibly sexy man, regardless of what game he plays. I hereby declare that this thread should cease being a flamewar, and instead become an open and flagrant display of frank homo-eroticism. Who's with me? You piss me off so much. Do you really think you're the only one here who isn't a dumbass? If you don't like the tread go away, quit giggling idiotically from your high horse.
I'm kind of a dumbass, too. I'm trying not to be, but getting mixed results.
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On May 31 2011 23:39 Ribbon wrote:
With fighting games, a lot of skills are I think more directly transferable from installment to installment than in other genres. While a lot of people say "people should be good at SC2 because we had ten years of BW", SC2 spent the last year unlearning a lot aspects of BW (armor upgrades are WAY better than weapon upgrades in SC2. The best way for Zerg to deal with mass air from a protoss is drops, and all the kind of little things that add up). If there's a Starcraft 3, it'll have the same problem. I don't mean to demean fighting games, and I'm sure there are tons of tiny little differences between Street Fighter 3 and 4 that add up pretty fast at the tippy-top levels, but it's not really the same "it's a year later and we kinda have this figured out" that an RTS sequel would have.
Luckily for e-sports, at least RTS games don't have that as a big issue. There's Brood War at the top, SC2 at a distant second (but gaining, albeit probably only to a less distant second), Warcraft 3 in third, and then a bunch of games no one cares about. Unlike, say, FPS games which seem to change every year.
I think it's more because the skills required in those games have always stayed the same, whereas BW and SC2 have a very different emphasis on required skills.
There are many differences between SF3 and SF4. And SF2 and SF3. Not only in characters, move priorities and frame data, but parrying was added in SF3, removed in SF4 (which added focus attacks), and yet, there are people with tons of SF2 experience who remain on top. This kinda shows how little SF has changed in the skills that are important. While the game itself has changed, it's demands have not.
Mechanics are so much more important in BW than in SC2, since much of SC2 is automated, thus the focus shifts elsewhere. Good mechanics in BW players don't translate as well into SC2.
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On June 01 2011 02:49 goiflin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 23:39 Ribbon wrote:
With fighting games, a lot of skills are I think more directly transferable from installment to installment than in other genres. While a lot of people say "people should be good at SC2 because we had ten years of BW", SC2 spent the last year unlearning a lot aspects of BW (armor upgrades are WAY better than weapon upgrades in SC2. The best way for Zerg to deal with mass air from a protoss is drops, and all the kind of little things that add up). If there's a Starcraft 3, it'll have the same problem. I don't mean to demean fighting games, and I'm sure there are tons of tiny little differences between Street Fighter 3 and 4 that add up pretty fast at the tippy-top levels, but it's not really the same "it's a year later and we kinda have this figured out" that an RTS sequel would have.
Luckily for e-sports, at least RTS games don't have that as a big issue. There's Brood War at the top, SC2 at a distant second (but gaining, albeit probably only to a less distant second), Warcraft 3 in third, and then a bunch of games no one cares about. Unlike, say, FPS games which seem to change every year.
I think it's more because the skills required in those games have always stayed the same, whereas BW and SC2 have a very different emphasis on required skills. There are many differences between SF3 and SF4. And SF2 and SF3. Not only in characters, move priorities and frame data, but parrying was added in SF3, removed in SF4 (which added focus attacks), and yet, there are people with tons of SF2 experience who remain on top. This kinda shows how little SF has changed in the skills that are important. While the game itself has changed, it's demands have not. Mechanics are so much more important in BW than in SC2, since much of SC2 is automated, thus the focus shifts elsewhere. Good mechanics in BW players don't translate as well into SC2.
As time passes and the game starts getting figured out more, dropping multiple locations at once is becoming standard (especially marauder drops as Terran). I think high-level SC2 may eventually come down to how many small battles you can manage at once while not screwing up your macro (which, believe it or not, I've seen pro-level players do. Kyrix had a queen with over 50 energy in a recent GSL game, which is bad bad bad).
The more I see players attacking base X while running hellions into base Y and dropping base Z, the more I think "good" SC2 will come down to multitasking, and that the simplified macro mechanics will allow more APM to be spent on microing small groups of units, because SC2 units only get A-move ezmodo in large balls. That's my big hope for SC2; that it'll have more battles at a time than a BW game can realistically have, and thus be good in it's own way, while BW is good in it's own way, and people fight over which is better forever and ever. As opposed to now, where most everyone agrees that BW is better, and we fight over if SC2 players count as humans.
I want both games to coexist, and I'd love to see some event that had both BW games and SC2 games.
And, to swing way back around to the actual topic of this thread, this deal increases the chances of something like that happening, and that makes me happy.
Edit: This post is not intended to imply the BW doesn't have tons of drops, multi-pronged harass, and action all over the map, just that I think SC2 is moving more and more in that direction.
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On May 27 2011 12:01 Selith wrote:- What will Blizzard do to continue the popularity of StarCraft into StarCraft 2 in Korea?▲ + Show Spoiler +
So basically what Blizz are saying is that Koreans know that sc2 is crap, but they are gonna force feed them down their throats until they give up playing bw is what I'm getting from this answer.
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EPT
