Paul Sams Interview: post-negotiation with KeSPA

On May 27 2011 12:19 masterbreti wrote:
I take one statement as basically KeSPA can't do anything new with starcraft. no new leagues other than what we have now.

On May 27 2011 12:15 moopie wrote:
"the fact that we are no longer trying to screw them over is good news."

On May 27 2011 12:48 Hier wrote:
I'm still in a slight disbelief that everything worked out so... well. Granted there is so much we are not being told, as to what was going on behind the scenes, it's still almost like a fairy tale.

Thanks for the translation!

On May 27 2011 12:01 Selith wrote:
▲ That's a question we get a lot. People ask, "Why would you want to convert people from SC to SC 2? How will you do it?". The reason is simple. It's our newest product. This is something that all companies do by default.

Out of all RTS games Blizzard developed, there's none that matches StarCraft in quality. It provided gamers with experience never seen before through excellent playability as well as B.net experience.

There are many ways to convert the SC 1 users to SC 2. Blizzard's local offices decide how they will go about it. Basically though, there is a big loyalty to StarCraft series, so I don't think there will be a problem with users converting to SC 2. I think it's already proven by the fact StarCraft 2 is the game that managed to sell a lot in such a short amount of time.

On May 27 2011 15:35 Headshot wrote:

I understand Blizzard's position, but I am not OK with this. If people recognize that BW is the better game and choose to play/watch it instead of SC2 than that's Blizzards fault. Look at what's wrong with SC2. I'm worried about what they're going to do to sell more copies.

On May 27 2011 16:27 prototype. wrote:
I'm kinda insulted by the way he views BW-only fans.

He needs to pull his head out of his ass and realize not everyone enjoys SC2 as much as BW.

On May 27 2011 16:27 prototype. wrote:
I'm kinda insulted by the way he views BW-only fans.

He needs to pull his head out of his ass and realize not everyone enjoys SC2 as much as BW.

In fact, StarCraft didn't gain huge following right after its release in Korea. It took a year at least to gain a huge following. StarCraft is like a toy that you are used to, or the clothing that you've worn for a while. It's old, you've used them many times, you're comfortable with them. I think if they come to experience StarCraft 2 proper, they can enjoy it too. We are that confident about the quality of StarCraft 2.

On May 27 2011 16:33 waxypants wrote:


I agree. I love how he compares BW fans to children who don't want to give up their old toy. They just don't understand. Oh well, we got what we want for now I guess.

Anyway, this is total bullshit but it's to be expected. They just realized it wasn't worth it and are now trying to backtrack and minimize any potential damage. Is anyone else put in rage-mode by the phrases "respect our IP rights" or "acknowledge our IP rights"? I don't even know what this means.

Anyway, what I can tell you is that all derivative works (such as broadcasted shows) using StarCraft: Brood War, their IP rights will belong to KeSPA and OGN-MBCGame. It is also possible for them to take these contents, then sell them as they see fit for various platforms they might be planning. However, there is the requirement that if they wish to open up a new SC: BW league elsewhere, they must negotiate with Blizzard again.

On May 27 2011 17:29 laurine90 wrote:
blizzard just 14 nex kespa and mbc and got away with it
ip rights they should have make up something less obvious lol

On May 27 2011 12:01 Selith wrote:
- Then what do you think will happen to Korean eSports scene?

▲ I'll take a certain boxing player as an example. He used to be the best in his nation, then he grew to become an international boxing star.

On May 27 2011 13:59 Armathai wrote:
Thanks for translating!

+ Show Spoiler +
This part is pretty annoying, in that they're trying to create a targeted campaign to get BW players to switch to SC2. It's like Microsoft trying to get people to go from XP to Vista..., why not just support a working product.

On May 27 2011 16:27 prototype. wrote:
I'm kinda insulted by the way he views BW-only fans.

He needs to pull his head out of his ass and realize not everyone enjoys SC2 as much as BW.

Well, it looks like Blizzard succeeded in getting their licensing fees, and KeSPA and friends possibly succeeded in avoiding most of the ridiculous demands that were originally tied to those fees. It seems like a decent compromise considering that Blizzard originally wanted a smooth, perhaps forced transition into SC2 while KeSPA originally didn't want Blizzard in the picture at all.

- Does this mean that from now on, as long as original works' IP rights are acknowledged, the rights to the derivative works will be given? Does this also affect StarCraft 2 and other nations?

▲ It's unrealistic to expect everything will proceed like this when all negotiations and contracts can change depending on the situations and conditions. The licensing agreement isn't something that is decided in certain way, and if one side demands their conditions by stating precedences, Blizzard may not participate in negotiations. The negotiations must proceed based upon our and other party's situations.

On May 28 2011 00:12 [F_]aths wrote:
I would say, BW did not play a big role over the years in our culture, so there wasn't much to marginalize. It was big in South Korea only. I feel that WC3 was overall much larger than BW, but compared to SC2 now, even WC3 is not much more than a footnote.

1a does not really work in progaming, but it can work for nubs like me. So Blizzard pleases everyone (except some hardcore BW fans.) SC2 brought a big breakthrough and got people to play and to watch RTS game. BW never really could do that, with the big exception of South Korea of course.

At the end of the day, I think it is not only the question which game is better. A perfect game, played by a small hardcore group and getting nearly no fresh blood (with the notable exception of kolll who crushed Idra) cannot attract many sponsors.

Lets assume, in 10 years we conclude that Legacy of the Void never got as deep as Broodwar. However in 10 years, hardly anyone would play Broodwar anyway. If they at least play Legacy of the Void, the SC legacy continues.

On May 28 2011 01:21 aimaimaim wrote:


If you are referring to the small hardcore groupas the korean scene then you have terrible bias in your posting. Following the BW proscene, you just can't help but assume that SC2 would have big sponsors too yet it failed miserably. Comparing to the followers of SC2 in US/EU vs BW in Korea where games are treated like real fucking sports is absurd. Compare the followers of CS, WC3 in China, Dota or HoN to SC2 .. You're terrible mistaken if you think that SC2 has the bigger fanbase/viewers.

Blizzard failed in SC2 .. They failed in delivering what the scene wanted. SC2 was over-hyped and was created to cater casuals not professional gaming. They failed because they created the game with the design flaw: low skill cap. No one wants to compete seriously in a game where everyone can compete with minimal dedication.

Also, comparing the time it took for BW to get big is also questionable. SC2 had the following of BW, if you ignore what BW did to the idea of e-sports, RTS, and gaming design in general and treat as if SC2 designers had the mind-set of RTS designers in the late 90's then there is no use in arguing blind fanboyism.

On May 28 2011 02:03 Ribbon wrote:
Nothing unexpected, really. Even I, SC2 fanboy that I am, think BW is better right now, but it's not like Blizz can really say "Our new game is worse than our old one". Even if they follow up by (correctly) sating "But we have too expansions and a lot of pro SC2 players are actually really awful and will eventually fall out in favor of players who don't engage in a 45 minute cavalcade of mutual epic failure during the biggest SC2 tournament in the world" (not that I'm bitter, Revival vs Ensnare set 2), it's bad PR.

People are reading too much menace into the "converted" line. Blizz wants people to like SC2. Kind of obvious. And if they're going to work on that goal by letting BW continue and trying to surpass it fairly, more power to them.



To be fair, just because SC2 isn't as big as BW, and isn't likely to be in the foreseeable future, doesn't mean it's a "failure". Incredible Miracle is sponsored by Coca-Cola, which is a pretty big sponsor. The GSTL just got extended into a full-on proleague and had it's prize pool tripled, and the GSL Super Tournament has a ~$92,000 grand prize, which is about a fifth of a starleague grand prize, but it's still a productive month. So SC2's stable, it's growing, and it's no where near BW. All of these things are true. And I think Blizz is just going to accept that and move on and try to grow SC2 organically from now on, because what else can they do?

Actually, if the game has as low a skill cap as you claim, you should go and win some tournaments before the bubble pops. There's quite a lot of money to be made right now.

On May 27 2011 22:58 Popss wrote:


In the end all Blizzard is trying to do is offer people a game that people want to play and that is enjoyable for as many people as possible.

This is just good business and who's to say a hardcore BW fans opinion about how a good strategy game should be like is worth more than a new SC2 players opinion.

If everyone shared the view of SC2 that people that still stick to BW do then Blizzard would most likely make major changes in their expansions to accomodate for what people feel the game is lacking.

But a ton of people enjoy SC2 as it is.

People who still stick to BW are already marginalized.

In the end I'm just as disappointed as everyone else for how SC2 turned out but knowing how a business reasons I don't really have much hope for the future either.

People wanted a game with 1a and simple mechanics so Blizzard made them one.

On May 27 2011 22:58 Popss wrote:
In the end all Blizzard is trying to do is offer people a game that people want to play and that is enjoyable for as many people as possible.

On May 28 2011 02:58 Legatus Lanius wrote:
because some people have yearnings beyond the monetary. it is called integrity

On May 28 2011 02:46 aimaimaim wrote:


I am more of a viewer than a player. Though you should realize or you already know that I do not mean to say SC2 is an easy game. I'm trying to say that anyone can still be competitive in SC2 even if they alot lesser time than what they would alot if they want to be competitive in BW because blizzard made it that way but meh, like I said, there is no arguing with fanboyism.

On May 28 2011 04:14 icouldcareless wrote:


Corporations have no such yearnings. Their sole goal is to increase profits. If corporations were people they would be considered psychopaths.

On May 28 2011 07:21 gen.Sun wrote:
Who else is boycotting?

On May 28 2011 07:21 gen.Sun wrote:
Oh ok so it's stated policy that they want to kill BW.

Looks like blizzard is never going to get another cent from me. Who else is boycotting?

On May 28 2011 07:21 gen.Sun wrote:
Oh ok so it's stated policy that they want to kill BW.

Looks like blizzard is never going to get another cent from me. Who else is boycotting?

On May 28 2011 07:31 Ribbon wrote:


Boycotting what, exactly? Not buying a game you weren't intending to buy?

And if Blizz wanted to kill BW, I feel like "Let BW proceed unmolested if they put a Blizzard logo somewhere" is a bad way of going about it.

On May 28 2011 02:56 [F_]aths wrote:
I really cannot support this view.

Regarding to sales, SC2 delivered almost exactly was "the scene" wanted as it builds its own scene. It does not need to convince every BW player.

The BW players can continue to play BW. So everyone can have its preferred game.

If you think that minimal dedication is enough to compete in SC2, why don't you to South Korea to earn some monaaayyy in the GSL? Why I am not able to see your name regulary in the Top-8 of western tournaments? Why are SlayerS and other teams, wo practicing A LOT, having good GSTL as well as good individual players standings?

On May 28 2011 07:31 Ribbon wrote:


Boycotting what, exactly? Not buying a game you weren't intending to buy?

And if Blizz wanted to kill BW, I feel like "Let BW proceed unmolested if they put a Blizzard logo somewhere" is a bad way of going about it.

On May 28 2011 09:38 aimaimaim wrote:
The BW scene was created because they want more viewers to watch television and not to create an abusive market like how Blizzard has complete control over the scene.

They can't even deliver balanced maps don't tell me they are going to address this when they release the 3rd installment of their game?

On May 28 2011 04:14 icouldcareless wrote:


Corporations have no such yearnings. Their sole goal is to increase profits. If corporations were people they would be considered psychopaths.

On May 28 2011 04:29 Ribbon wrote:
I take it you're not an economist.

Kespa and Flash and etc are only in BW for the money, too (despite Kespa's protestations to the contrary). Let's not overlook that. Rational people seek to maximize utility.

On May 28 2011 04:14 icouldcareless wrote:


Corporations have no such yearnings. Their sole goal is to increase profits. If corporations were people they would be considered psychopaths.

On May 28 2011 11:04 Ribbon wrote:


What's the moral difference between Blizzard having complete control over the scene and Kespa having complete control o

On May 28 2011 08:19 maybenexttime wrote:


I intended to buy sc2 but I ended up not doing so cause I got fed up and decided I'm not gonna put up with all this bullshit from blizzard. Either they fix sc2 and stop trying to force it down people's throats or I'm not gonna buy any of their games ever.

On May 28 2011 11:04 Ribbon wrote:


What's the moral difference between Blizzard having complete control over the scene and Kespa having complete control over the scene?



That's not a question. Why is there a question mark?

Anyway, tournaments use GSL maps nowadays, one of which (Tal'Darim Altar) has become an official ladder map. Blizzard has announced that more GSL maps will enter the ladder/they're going to change the map pool with the season changes.

The current season of the GSL uses the following map pool.

1. Xel'Naga Caverns (Which Actually is balanced)
2. Metalopolis (A custom version with close ground spawns disabled so that it's balanced on all Spawn locations).
3. Bel'Shir Beach
4. Crevasse
5. Crossfire SE
6. Dual Sight
7. Tal'Darim Altar LE (Which is a ladder map, now)
8. Terminus RE
9. Xel'Naga Fortress

The ladder still has some glaring issues, but downvoting Delta Quadrant (Blizz has acknowledged that this is a horrible map; I don't know why it's still around. Maybe they are evil), Slag Pits, and the Backwater Gulch gives you a balancedish pool. Steppes of War, Blistering Sands, Jungle Basin, Kulas Ravine, Lost Temple, and Desert Oasis have been replaced with notably improved maps like Shakuras Plateau (especially the most recent version without the backdoor rocks) and Tal'Darim Altar LE,

The maps are changing. The game is becoming more balanced (In the GSL, Zerg have won 3 tournaments, and Terran and Protoss have each won 2), with more macro games involving more multipronged attacks and drops. It's still got miles and miles and miles to go to get to BW levels. It may never. There will always be a large number of people who prefer Brood War But SC2 now is way fucking better than SC2 back during the first few GSLs, and that shouldn't be glossed over.

On May 28 2011 07:21 gen.Sun wrote:
Oh ok so it's stated policy that they want to kill BW.

Looks like blizzard is never going to get another cent from me. Who else is boycotting?

On May 29 2011 00:32 maybenexttime wrote:


What's your point?

On May 28 2011 11:04 Ribbon wrote:


What's the moral difference between Blizzard having complete control over the scene and Kespa having complete control over the scene?

On May 29 2011 04:06 RaLakedaimon wrote:
"Out of all RTS games Blizzard developed, there's none that matches StarCraft in quality".

On May 29 2011 03:38 Nemesis wrote:

Two reasons:
1.Kespa is all about BW while Blizzard is all about SC2
2.Kespa is a not-for-profit organization who actually cares about esports while Blizzard is for-profit who only cares about making money and hasn't really done anything to support esports besides mere words.

The only way that blizzard is really going to "convert" bw people to sc2 is if they kill the bw proscene which they have already failed at, even then it's not guranteed that people will actually move on to sc2. I'm curious to see what their next fail card is. They just fail to realize that people are just not interested in an inferior product, even if it's NEWER. They keep emphasizing newer as if that newer = better.

/sigh

On May 29 2011 03:38 Nemesis wrote:
Kespa is a not-for-profit organization who actually cares about esports

On May 29 2011 07:13 Ribbon wrote:


The NFL is a non-profit organization, too, so I don't see how that's relevant.

Kespa "cares about e-sports" in the same way McDonald's cares about burgers.

On May 29 2011 07:10 Nemesis wrote:
I don't know why you are quoting my post, because I am in no way blaming blizzard for the viability of e-sports outside of Korea. The only blame that I am putting on them is trying to bring down the bw scene and well trying to force sc2 down people's throat(I couldn't care less about this if this doesn't include harming the BW scene). I understand that the foreigner mentality is just not viable for esports, but wth does that have to do with my post? The only thing I care about is enjoying my korean BW.

On May 29 2011 07:32 zobz wrote:

My problem with your post was that you cited Blizzard being for-profit as a moral distinction between them and KeSPA. That was either a very careless choice of words or you actually believe that problems like this should be solved by removing those who would respond to the market instead of by changing the market.

On May 29 2011 07:32 zobz wrote:

My problem with your post was that you cited Blizzard being for-profit as a moral distinction between them and KeSPA. That was either a very careless choice of words or you actually believe that problems like this should be solved by removing those who would respond to the market instead of by changing the market.

On May 29 2011 07:15 Nemesis wrote:

Tell me, what has blizzard done to support esports besides making games? And why don't you compare that to what kespa has done?

On May 29 2011 12:39 ShadeR wrote:

Well then let's examine why Kespa is labeled not for profit? Hmmm seems they do have revenue from broadcasts, then doesn't that make them for profit? WRONG They are NFP because all revenue gained is directly invested back into the eSports scene not limited to proBW. Therefore the dichotomy that Nemesis made between NFP Kespa and for-profit Acti-Lizzard does have merit and is perfectly valid.

On May 29 2011 13:54 Ribbon wrote:


Can I count GOM, there?

Also, since you are highly pro-BW, do you count Kespa forbidding BW players from playing SC2, and preventing those games that DID happen from being broadcast as "for" e-sports?

Actually, can you maybe detail what KeSPA's done for e-sports for a noob like me? Besides incorporating it?

While you right what I assume is a long list, I'll watch this GOM Avertatec game:

http://www.gomtv.net/classic/vod/576

It's so great that KeSPA supported GOM in this tournament, which provided official English commentary to try and help expand Starcraft beyond Korea's borders (unlike those SC2 loving bastards at GOM!). I'm glad that's a thing that happened, instead of KeSPA trying to shut it down and leading to a massive shitstorm. That would've been sad.

Well, that's not truly fair. They did that because GOM is allied with Blizzard. It's not like they have a habit of attacking or even shutting down leagues they don't like.

KeSPA never ever ever bullied a popular Brood War tournament due to "IP rights". That would make them exactly the same as Blizzard!

I'll also read these old team liquid threads about how awesome KeSPA is

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=93222
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=93226
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=92204
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=91487

Also, since you are highly pro-BW, do you count Kespa forbidding BW players from playing SC2, and preventing those games that DID happen from being broadcast as "for" e-sports?

On May 29 2011 18:07 whatusername wrote:
im not anti-BW, in fact I love BW and dont like SC2. But I find it oddly hilarious how just 2 years ago everyone was hating on KESPA and some even wanted it gone, yet now everyone views kespa as the pro-BW superhero

On May 29 2011 06:54 zobz wrote:
That SC2 is an easier way to make money than BW is simply a reflection of the market that exists for "e-sports" outside of Korea. Just look at the best players to come out and play Broodwar from the international scene. Almost all if not all of them switched to SC2 the moment it was released because they thought somehow that the fresh strategic start of a completely unsolved game would let them better compete with the Koreans. It sort of did for a very short while, and then they discovered that Koreans were better at BW for deeper reasons than could so conveniently be overcome. It's their work ethic. Korean progamers have a much higher propensity towards the star athlete attitude in regards to e-sports, where they recognize the importance of a practice, practice, practice mentallity if you want to make a career out of sports. Whereas the non-Kors are still constantly just looking for an easy fix, trying to find their dream life where they just play videogames much as they always did as kids and actually get payed to do it, only hoping to profit off of somebody else's work (the game designers) or someone else's stupidity (fans/sponsors). In essence even the "pros" outside of Korea still can't bring themselves to take the game seriously.

This is the sad truth about the viability of real e-sports outside of Korea. To blame Blizzard for this because they "just want to make money" is very immature. If for some reason e-sports is so important that the world would be a substantially better place if it existed internationally, well think about it. E-sports revolves around videogames, videogame design is an industry. The industry is changing because of the culture of the people who play videogames, by and large. There was a time where somebody, the existence of whom you depend on absolutely unless you want to take over their job, designed a game that was right for e-sports because they thought it was in their best interest. This is a rare opportunity. The game's been around for 12 years, and in all that time you failed to cultivate it into something popular enough to be sustainably profitable. You missed your chance.

Just enjoy Korean BW for the next couple years until Blizzard decides it is in their best interest to kill off the competition which they enabled. It is not morally justifiable to abuse their rights to what they created, regardless of whether you think they're using those rights badly, by whatever reasoning.

On May 29 2011 19:58 ffreakk wrote:
Lol lets not get emotional now

But E-Sport outside of Korea? I dont care about things that dont exist either :x

On May 29 2011 21:13 frodoguy wrote:
^what do you mean? E-sports outside korea is booming.

On May 29 2011 22:44 Legatus Lanius wrote:
wasnt savior also selected for the olympic torch bearing or some shit? or am i off the plot

On May 29 2011 18:52 Legatus Lanius wrote:


well kespa is a pro-bw superhero if they are compared to blizzard

On May 31 2011 04:46 lungo wrote:when MC won 2 GSL in a row, everyone was claiming him to be the best

On May 31 2011 06:10 Ribbon wrote:


At the risk of picking nits, this never actually happened. MC won GSL 3, and he proclaimed himself to be a bonjwa, which drew a little scorn even from his fans. MVP won GSL 4. MC won GSL 5, and thus has two golds (even if we pretend the level of competition is the same, though, a GSL win is worth less than an OSL/MSL win, because there are a lot more GSLs in a year), but no one's yet one 2 consecutive GSLs.

MC is considered the best Korean protoss, which is a bit of a backhanded compliment. He got knocked out of the TSL by Thorzain, a foreigner, in a bo5 when they were both playing on the EU server and thus experienced no lag problems.

Right now, no one's considered "the best" at SC2 right now. We have no bonjwas. In Korea, the top three are MC, Nestea, and MVP (6 GSL wins split evenly between them, with Fruitdealer having the 7th). Naniwa is doing pretty well in the foreign scene, and has announced vague plans to go to Korea and try to win there. Most of the foreign players, in particular those in EG, are trying to establish an e-sports scene in the west, and are....doing a lot better than the western BW scene (SC2 occasionally appears in the "sports" section of Swedish newspapers).

I think it's possible that western e-sports could become like anime in the next few years: sizeable, something most people are vaguely aware of, but not the mainstream. But that's an entirely separate discussion that doesn't belong in the BW section, unless the BW community is willing to try and spread the Word of the Dong in the west..

On May 31 2011 23:39 Ribbon wrote:
There is absolutely no way e-sports in the west can be as big as e-sports in Korea in the next 10 years, But I think that's setting the bar too high. The scene can pretty easily double in size in the next few years, and that's an important step towards getting to Korea-like levels eventually.

The United States alone has more than 6 times Korea's population. A sizable niche (like, say, anime, which is also something that only appears to nerds) here is still pretty goddamn huge.

I was in Michigan for Otakon last year, and there was an article in the local newpaper about how important Otakon was for the city, because the massive influx of dorks was a great boost to the economy. MLG Columbus is this week, I think. I wonder how the city of Columbus feels about the fact that MLG is bringing in a lot of tourism dollars. Maybe the mayor of Columbus might one day want to do a photo op about all the jobs that were created setting up the area. That leads to more coverage, which leads to awareness, which leads to acceptance, which leads to curiosity. Step by step by step, over a decade or two. And then the convention's five times as big as it used to be. And thus the prizes are bigger, so the competition is fiercer, so the games are better, so more people watch it. It's a virtuous cycle.

And as people get into e-sports, a small percentage of them will get into Brood War, specifically, as the game that started it all. Just because we can't turn America into Korea in a few months doesn't mean the growth of western e-sports is completely worthless.

Hell, maybe one day Korea will feel as though it's position as the e-sports capital of the world is threatened, and then KeSPA will really get serious about promoting e-sports, and trying to turn Brood War from a "Korean thing" into an international scene.

But now we're entering into pipe dreams, maybe. But man, if KeSPA felt it was worthwhile to try an foster a real international Brood War scene, that was serious, wouldn't that be so totally awesome?

Meh. I know that's not going to happen to that point. But I really do wish the BW scene would evangelize a little more. I don't even care if they say that BW is the One True E-Sport, and Flash is it's profit. I just want to see some growth. College BW tournaments.

I mean, for god's sakes, there's a college league for goddamn quidditch. I want to see a college league for e-sports. Brood War, SC2, whatever.


Edit: Oddly enough, I think Super Smash Brothers Melee was a huge influence on Western e-sports that'll be written about ten years from now, because when I went to UMASS Amherst a few years ago, everyone played Smash, and most people were aware of a competitive for-money scene (I had a Smash tourney player as a roommate Freshmen year). Even if it never "broke out", it gave a LOT of people exposure to the idea of competitive gaming for money or prizes as a real thing that happened. My dorm had a yearly Smash tournament, even. It did a lot of "priming", in large part because of it's casual-friendliness let to popularity, which led to lot of really tiny tournaments.

What kind of e-sports scene might we have now if people were hosting college Brood War tournaments at a low skill level back in 2003, setting up e-sports clubs, etc...and that just kept happening? I wonder.

On May 29 2011 23:04 aimaimaim wrote:


Woah .. didn't know that because I came to BW when Bisu roflstomped Savior. That would be awesome if that's actually true

On May 29 2011 07:32 zobz wrote:

My problem with your post was that you cited Blizzard being for-profit as a moral distinction between them and KeSPA. That was either a very careless choice of words or you actually believe that problems like this should be solved by removing those who would respond to the market instead of by changing the market.

On May 30 2011 11:43 Ribbon wrote:


To the internet, everyone is either Hitler or Jesus, with no gray area whatsoever.

This whole thing is just a muddy situation, and people try to turn it into black and white good vs evil.

KeSPA are hardly saints. Neither are Blizzard.

You can say Blizzard has done less for e-sports than KeSPA, has been shady, and that SC2 isn't as good as Brood War. I'd agree with you on that.

But the way a lot of people argue it is that Blizzard is trying to kill e-sports, which they've done literally nothing for, so they can physically force people the play SC2, which is a random number generator for retarded people that don't even deserve oxygen, and that the only thing standing in the way is the heroic Aryan knights at KeSPA, who forged the BW scene from metal found in the fires of mount doom, and who maintain massive televised pro-leagues for absolutely no reason except that they're just kind of awesome like that.

And the SC2 players come back and say that BW was never all that good and it's run by the mafia and viewed by old men with arthritis and the SC2 scene is all the hip kids who wear their pants backwards and are going to revolutionize the world by personally slaying Flash with the Frostmourne swords that those really cool bros at Blizzard sent them, because Blizzard actually cares about e-sports and growing it whereas KeSPA only wants to rule Korea like unto gods.

Everyone's arguing with strawmen using strawmen, and I haven't exactly been above the fray myself. My little soap box is not on the moral high ground here. But I kind of wish this damn SC2/BW Blizzard/KeSPA thing would just fucking end and everyone would forget about it, and then we could get back to discussing the important things: NaDa is an incredibly sexy man, regardless of what game he plays.

I hereby declare that this thread should cease being a flamewar, and instead become an open and flagrant display of frank homo-eroticism. Who's with me?

On June 01 2011 02:01 wassbix wrote:


Sorry if I didnt come off clear, but the point I was trying to make wasn't that the west will never have Esport to the scale of Korea, but that Korea was the only place where Esport didn't pop as a bubble.

On the topic of smash, oddly enough fighting game scene has remained mostly strong because people accept that new game will come and go and they just play for the shelf life of the game and move onto the next new fighting game (with few oddities like ST). I could see this being the case in the west, since many games have transferable skill. Though we'll never see something like God Young Ho exist simply because no one is a "professional gamer"

On June 01 2011 02:34 gen.Sun wrote:



You piss me off so much. Do you really think you're the only one here who isn't a dumbass?

If you don't like the tread go away, quit giggling idiotically from your high horse.

On May 31 2011 23:39 Ribbon wrote:
With fighting games, a lot of skills are I think more directly transferable from installment to installment than in other genres. While a lot of people say "people should be good at SC2 because we had ten years of BW", SC2 spent the last year unlearning a lot aspects of BW (armor upgrades are WAY better than weapon upgrades in SC2. The best way for Zerg to deal with mass air from a protoss is drops, and all the kind of little things that add up). If there's a Starcraft 3, it'll have the same problem. I don't mean to demean fighting games, and I'm sure there are tons of tiny little differences between Street Fighter 3 and 4 that add up pretty fast at the tippy-top levels, but it's not really the same "it's a year later and we kinda have this figured out" that an RTS sequel would have.

Luckily for e-sports, at least RTS games don't have that as a big issue. There's Brood War at the top, SC2 at a distant second (but gaining, albeit probably only to a less distant second), Warcraft 3 in third, and then a bunch of games no one cares about. Unlike, say, FPS games which seem to change every year.

On June 01 2011 02:49 goiflin wrote:


I think it's more because the skills required in those games have always stayed the same, whereas BW and SC2 have a very different emphasis on required skills.

There are many differences between SF3 and SF4. And SF2 and SF3. Not only in characters, move priorities and frame data, but parrying was added in SF3, removed in SF4 (which added focus attacks), and yet, there are people with tons of SF2 experience who remain on top. This kinda shows how little SF has changed in the skills that are important. While the game itself has changed, it's demands have not.

Mechanics are so much more important in BW than in SC2, since much of SC2 is automated, thus the focus shifts elsewhere. Good mechanics in BW players don't translate as well into SC2.

On May 27 2011 12:01 Selith wrote:
- What will Blizzard do to continue the popularity of StarCraft into StarCraft 2 in Korea?

▲ + Show Spoiler +