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On May 29 2011 18:07 whatusername wrote:
im not anti-BW, in fact I love BW and dont like SC2. But I find it oddly hilarious how just 2 years ago everyone was hating on KESPA and some even wanted it gone, yet now everyone views kespa as the pro-BW superhero
well kespa is a pro-bw superhero if they are compared to blizzard
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On May 29 2011 06:54 zobz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2011 03:38 Nemesis wrote:On May 28 2011 11:04 Ribbon wrote:On May 28 2011 09:38 aimaimaim wrote:
The BW scene was created because they want more viewers to watch television and not to create an abusive market like how Blizzard has complete control over the scene. What's the moral difference between Blizzard having complete control over the scene and Kespa having complete control over the scene? Two reasons: 1.Kespa is all about BW while Blizzard is all about SC2 2.Kespa is a not-for-profit organization who actually cares about esports while Blizzard is for-profit who only cares about making money and hasn't really done anything to support esports besides mere words. The only way that blizzard is really going to "convert" bw people to sc2 is if they kill the bw proscene which they have already failed at, even then it's not guranteed that people will actually move on to sc2. I'm curious to see what their next fail card is. They just fail to realize that people are just not interested in an inferior product, even if it's NEWER. They keep emphasizing newer as if that newer = better. /sigh That SC2 is an easier way to make money than BW is simply a reflection of the market that exists for "e-sports" outside of Korea. Just look at the best players to come out and play Broodwar from the international scene. Almost all if not all of them switched to SC2 the moment it was released because they thought somehow that the fresh strategic start of a completely unsolved game would let them better compete with the Koreans. It sort of did for a very short while, and then they discovered that Koreans were better at BW for deeper reasons than could so conveniently be overcome. It's their work ethic. Korean progamers have a much higher propensity towards the star athlete attitude in regards to e-sports, where they recognize the importance of a practice, practice, practice mentallity if you want to make a career out of sports. Whereas the non-Kors are still constantly just looking for an easy fix, trying to find their dream life where they just play videogames much as they always did as kids and actually get payed to do it, only hoping to profit off of somebody else's work (the game designers) or someone else's stupidity (fans/sponsors). In essence even the "pros" outside of Korea still can't bring themselves to take the game seriously. This is the sad truth about the viability of real e-sports outside of Korea. To blame Blizzard for this because they "just want to make money" is very immature. If for some reason e-sports is so important that the world would be a substantially better place if it existed internationally, well think about it. E-sports revolves around videogames, videogame design is an industry. The industry is changing because of the culture of the people who play videogames, by and large. There was a time where somebody, the existence of whom you depend on absolutely unless you want to take over their job, designed a game that was right for e-sports because they thought it was in their best interest. This is a rare opportunity. The game's been around for 12 years, and in all that time you failed to cultivate it into something popular enough to be sustainably profitable. You missed your chance. Just enjoy Korean BW for the next couple years until Blizzard decides it is in their best interest to kill off the competition which they enabled. It is not morally justifiable to abuse their rights to what they created, regardless of whether you think they're using those rights badly, by whatever reasoning.
Who the fuck cares about SC2 outside korea???? Certainly not Kespa
Who the fuck cares about SC2 inside korea???? Only Blizzard.
BW is still great in Korea if Kespa doesn't fuck the BW scene up, there is no way that sponsors and players will stop supporting the scene while Koreans, in general, are still interested in the scene, While their talents can still be profited by players, while there are still fan-base willing to throw panties at players if given the chance.. And if Blizzard steps in again, they will fail AGAIN. So fuck their 'IP Protection' move. They backed out because they know they will never win the lawsuit and if they try again, THEY WILL FAIL AGAIN.
And like I said, Who the fuck cares about the "E-sport" Scene outside korea? Certainly not Kespa. And certainly not me.
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Lol lets not get emotional now 
But E-Sport outside of Korea? I dont care about things that dont exist either :x
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^what do you mean? E-sports outside korea is booming.
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On May 29 2011 19:58 ffreakk wrote:Lol lets not get emotional now But E-Sport outside of Korea? I dont care about things that dont exist either :x
I agree. Some people are throwing around the word Esport in the sc2 foreign scene and I dare to say most of these people are either "new to sc2 and knows nothing about esport" or "people who are somehow involved in sc2". The loose and unorganized structure of the foreign scene is not ideal for serious growth we've seen in bw.
The Koreans are right: We top Korean have no problem going to compete in US or wherever you have a GSL. But you foreigners are all claiming "too costly" "we miss gf/bf/mum/dad" "culture differences". The truth is, everyone knows 99% of them are below Code A stuff. Staying in foreign scene is not by choice - they had no choice.
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On May 29 2011 21:13 frodoguy wrote:
^what do you mean? E-sports outside korea is booming.
Many tournaments =\= E-sport ..
E-sport is when common people in your country accept your game as a house hold name.
SC2 and all other fancy game tournaments outside korea are just mere tournaments.
Tell me if your SC2 players outside korea can sign autographs or being chased down by rabid fangirls while strolling malls because that's the time E-sport outside Korea is booming.
Tell me if your foreign heroes are making DVD's about their past life, if they were featured in National Geographic channel or their countries are proud enough of them that their country men would include them in a tourism ad on how their country has these kinds of talented people ..
+ Show Spoiler +Thats Boxer, Xellos and Flash ..
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wasnt savior also selected for the olympic torch bearing or some shit? or am i off the plot
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On May 29 2011 22:44 Legatus Lanius wrote:
wasnt savior also selected for the olympic torch bearing or some shit? or am i off the plot
Woah .. didn't know that because I came to BW when Bisu roflstomped Savior. That would be awesome if that's actually true 
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i might be completely wrong lol
i just remember something about some brood war bonjwas and a torch lol
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I have vague memories of reading something similiar...think it was the emperor himself boxer
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On May 29 2011 18:52 Legatus Lanius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2011 18:07 whatusername wrote:
im not anti-BW, in fact I love BW and dont like SC2. But I find it oddly hilarious how just 2 years ago everyone was hating on KESPA and some even wanted it gone, yet now everyone views kespa as the pro-BW superhero well kespa is a pro-bw superhero if they are compared to blizzard
To the internet, everyone is either Hitler or Jesus, with no gray area whatsoever.
This whole thing is just a muddy situation, and people try to turn it into black and white good vs evil.
KeSPA are hardly saints. Neither are Blizzard.
You can say Blizzard has done less for e-sports than KeSPA, has been shady, and that SC2 isn't as good as Brood War. I'd agree with you on that.
But the way a lot of people argue it is that Blizzard is trying to kill e-sports, which they've done literally nothing for, so they can physically force people the play SC2, which is a random number generator for retarded people that don't even deserve oxygen, and that the only thing standing in the way is the heroic Aryan knights at KeSPA, who forged the BW scene from metal found in the fires of mount doom, and who maintain massive televised pro-leagues for absolutely no reason except that they're just kind of awesome like that.
And the SC2 players come back and say that BW was never all that good and it's run by the mafia and viewed by old men with arthritis and the SC2 scene is all the hip kids who wear their pants backwards and are going to revolutionize the world by personally slaying Flash with the Frostmourne swords that those really cool bros at Blizzard sent them, because Blizzard actually cares about e-sports and growing it whereas KeSPA only wants to rule Korea like unto gods.
Everyone's arguing with strawmen using strawmen, and I haven't exactly been above the fray myself. My little soap box is not on the moral high ground here. But I kind of wish this damn SC2/BW Blizzard/KeSPA thing would just fucking end and everyone would forget about it, and then we could get back to discussing the important things: NaDa is an incredibly sexy man, regardless of what game he plays.
I hereby declare that this thread should cease being a flamewar, and instead become an open and flagrant display of frank homo-eroticism. Who's with me?
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kespa has done some shady things for sure. i agree with everyone on the mbc/ogn fee thing, but im not really fussed about the strict enforcing of rules (the pause incidents, that accidental esc by ruby i think it was etc.) you gotta have rules, and i dont think theres anything wrong with enforcing them strictly. it may suck if you accidentally typed the wrong letter, but hey, its not hard to make sure you type it right.
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ESport outside of korea = for the money
ESport inside of korea = for being the best
when MC won 2 GSL in a row, everyone was claiming him to be the best
allmost everyone agree that the players and skilllevel in korea is alot higher, because they train for it, they live for it, and by the means they live for it, you all know that there are fucking 5guys sleeping in the same room, every night, everyday, training 12hours, doing nothing else, it sounds tough right?
ESport means electronic sport, you all forget the word "sports" here, i allways thought that sport was to be able to measure who was the best player, not who earn most money.
there was a reason for the foreigner broodwar players try for it in Korea, it was to be good, to win, but unfortunately, none have succeeded since the time of Grrr and Elky
so heres the question, is ESport for the sake of earning money? i dont think so, but i believe that money is now a part of ESport, you need money for being able to do it every day.
Like any other "sports", you want to become the best, and the only place you can become the best is Korea and you all know that.
you dont fucking win Superbowl for the sake of money, you win it because you utterly want to win it at all cost, to proof you're the best.
Barcalona didnt win champions league for the money, they win it to proof they are the best.
for the moment, i believe there are no other places than Korea, which truly embrace the word "ESports" regarding both broodwar and SC2
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On May 31 2011 04:46 lungo wrote:when MC won 2 GSL in a row, everyone was claiming him to be the best
At the risk of picking nits, this never actually happened. MC won GSL 3, and he proclaimed himself to be a bonjwa, which drew a little scorn even from his fans. MVP won GSL 4. MC won GSL 5, and thus has two golds (even if we pretend the level of competition is the same, though, a GSL win is worth less than an OSL/MSL win, because there are a lot more GSLs in a year), but no one's yet one 2 consecutive GSLs.
MC is considered the best Korean protoss, which is a bit of a backhanded compliment. He got knocked out of the TSL by Thorzain, a foreigner, in a bo5 when they were both playing on the EU server and thus experienced no lag problems.
Right now, no one's considered "the best" at SC2 right now. We have no bonjwas. In Korea, the top three are MC, Nestea, and MVP (6 GSL wins split evenly between them, with Fruitdealer having the 7th). Naniwa is doing pretty well in the foreign scene, and has announced vague plans to go to Korea and try to win there. Most of the foreign players, in particular those in EG, are trying to establish an e-sports scene in the west, and are....doing a lot better than the western BW scene (SC2 occasionally appears in the "sports" section of Swedish newspapers).
I think it's possible that western e-sports could become like anime in the next few years: sizeable, something most people are vaguely aware of, but not the mainstream. But that's an entirely separate discussion that doesn't belong in the BW section, unless the BW community is willing to try and spread the Word of the Dong in the west..
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On May 31 2011 06:10 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 04:46 lungo wrote:when MC won 2 GSL in a row, everyone was claiming him to be the best At the risk of picking nits, this never actually happened. MC won GSL 3, and he proclaimed himself to be a bonjwa, which drew a little scorn even from his fans. MVP won GSL 4. MC won GSL 5, and thus has two golds (even if we pretend the level of competition is the same, though, a GSL win is worth less than an OSL/MSL win, because there are a lot more GSLs in a year), but no one's yet one 2 consecutive GSLs. MC is considered the best Korean protoss, which is a bit of a backhanded compliment. He got knocked out of the TSL by Thorzain, a foreigner, in a bo5 when they were both playing on the EU server and thus experienced no lag problems. Right now, no one's considered "the best" at SC2 right now. We have no bonjwas. In Korea, the top three are MC, Nestea, and MVP (6 GSL wins split evenly between them, with Fruitdealer having the 7th). Naniwa is doing pretty well in the foreign scene, and has announced vague plans to go to Korea and try to win there. Most of the foreign players, in particular those in EG, are trying to establish an e-sports scene in the west, and are....doing a lot better than the western BW scene (SC2 occasionally appears in the "sports" section of Swedish newspapers). I think it's possible that western e-sports could become like anime in the next few years: sizeable, something most people are vaguely aware of, but not the mainstream. But that's an entirely separate discussion that doesn't belong in the BW section, unless the BW community is willing to try and spread the Word of the Dong in the west..
Honestly being way too optimistic in prospect of "Esports" taking off in the west. Its a Nerd hobby that only nerds care about in the west and so far there is almost nothing to show that this is changing. Lot of tournies with big shiny prizes have occurred in the past and it has nothing to show for it now (Who remembers the CPL boom in the early 2000s!). Painkiller was going to revolutionize professional gaming!
I'm not a seer so I don't know whats going to happen, but its bit early/optimistic to equate big tournaments as a foreshadowing of the emergence of Esport in the west. Quake/War3/Dota/CS 1.6 all had big tournaments as well, but they all failed to bring Esports into any prominence (compared to korea/bw)
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There is absolutely no way e-sports in the west can be as big as e-sports in Korea in the next 10 years, But I think that's setting the bar too high. The scene can pretty easily double in size in the next few years, and that's an important step towards getting to Korea-like levels eventually.
The United States alone has more than 6 times Korea's population. A sizable niche (like, say, anime, which is also something that only appears to nerds) here is still pretty goddamn huge.
I was in Michigan for Otakon last year, and there was an article in the local newpaper about how important Otakon was for the city, because the massive influx of dorks was a great boost to the economy. MLG Columbus is this week, I think. I wonder how the city of Columbus feels about the fact that MLG is bringing in a lot of tourism dollars. Maybe the mayor of Columbus might one day want to do a photo op about all the jobs that were created setting up the area. That leads to more coverage, which leads to awareness, which leads to acceptance, which leads to curiosity. Step by step by step, over a decade or two. And then the convention's five times as big as it used to be. And thus the prizes are bigger, so the competition is fiercer, so the games are better, so more people watch it. It's a virtuous cycle.
And as people get into e-sports, a small percentage of them will get into Brood War, specifically, as the game that started it all. Just because we can't turn America into Korea in a few months doesn't mean the growth of western e-sports is completely worthless.
Hell, maybe one day Korea will feel as though it's position as the e-sports capital of the world is threatened, and then KeSPA will really get serious about promoting e-sports, and trying to turn Brood War from a "Korean thing" into an international scene.
But now we're entering into pipe dreams, maybe. But man, if KeSPA felt it was worthwhile to try an foster a real international Brood War scene, that was serious, wouldn't that be so totally awesome?
Meh. I know that's not going to happen to that point. But I really do wish the BW scene would evangelize a little more. I don't even care if they say that BW is the One True E-Sport, and Flash is it's profit. I just want to see some growth. College BW tournaments.
I mean, for god's sakes, there's a college league for goddamn quidditch. I want to see a college league for e-sports. Brood War, SC2, whatever.
Edit: Oddly enough, I think Super Smash Brothers Melee was a huge influence on Western e-sports that'll be written about ten years from now, because when I went to UMASS Amherst a few years ago, everyone played Smash, and most people were aware of a competitive for-money scene (I had a Smash tourney player as a roommate Freshmen year). Even if it never "broke out", it gave a LOT of people exposure to the idea of competitive gaming for money or prizes as a real thing that happened. My dorm had a yearly Smash tournament, even. It did a lot of "priming", in large part because of it's casual-friendliness let to popularity, which led to lot of really tiny tournaments.
What kind of e-sports scene might we have now if people were hosting college Brood War tournaments at a low skill level back in 2003, setting up e-sports clubs, etc...and that just kept happening? I wonder.
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On May 31 2011 23:39 Ribbon wrote:
There is absolutely no way e-sports in the west can be as big as e-sports in Korea in the next 10 years, But I think that's setting the bar too high. The scene can pretty easily double in size in the next few years, and that's an important step towards getting to Korea-like levels eventually.
The United States alone has more than 6 times Korea's population. A sizable niche (like, say, anime, which is also something that only appears to nerds) here is still pretty goddamn huge.
I was in Michigan for Otakon last year, and there was an article in the local newpaper about how important Otakon was for the city, because the massive influx of dorks was a great boost to the economy. MLG Columbus is this week, I think. I wonder how the city of Columbus feels about the fact that MLG is bringing in a lot of tourism dollars. Maybe the mayor of Columbus might one day want to do a photo op about all the jobs that were created setting up the area. That leads to more coverage, which leads to awareness, which leads to acceptance, which leads to curiosity. Step by step by step, over a decade or two. And then the convention's five times as big as it used to be. And thus the prizes are bigger, so the competition is fiercer, so the games are better, so more people watch it. It's a virtuous cycle.
And as people get into e-sports, a small percentage of them will get into Brood War, specifically, as the game that started it all. Just because we can't turn America into Korea in a few months doesn't mean the growth of western e-sports is completely worthless.
Hell, maybe one day Korea will feel as though it's position as the e-sports capital of the world is threatened, and then KeSPA will really get serious about promoting e-sports, and trying to turn Brood War from a "Korean thing" into an international scene.
But now we're entering into pipe dreams, maybe. But man, if KeSPA felt it was worthwhile to try an foster a real international Brood War scene, that was serious, wouldn't that be so totally awesome?
Meh. I know that's not going to happen to that point. But I really do wish the BW scene would evangelize a little more. I don't even care if they say that BW is the One True E-Sport, and Flash is it's profit. I just want to see some growth. College BW tournaments.
I mean, for god's sakes, there's a college league for goddamn quidditch. I want to see a college league for e-sports. Brood War, SC2, whatever.
Edit: Oddly enough, I think Super Smash Brothers Melee was a huge influence on Western e-sports that'll be written about ten years from now, because when I went to UMASS Amherst a few years ago, everyone played Smash, and most people were aware of a competitive for-money scene (I had a Smash tourney player as a roommate Freshmen year). Even if it never "broke out", it gave a LOT of people exposure to the idea of competitive gaming for money or prizes as a real thing that happened. My dorm had a yearly Smash tournament, even. It did a lot of "priming", in large part because of it's casual-friendliness let to popularity, which led to lot of really tiny tournaments.
What kind of e-sports scene might we have now if people were hosting college Brood War tournaments at a low skill level back in 2003, setting up e-sports clubs, etc...and that just kept happening? I wonder.
Sorry if I didnt come off clear, but the point I was trying to make wasn't that the west will never have Esport to the scale of Korea, but that Korea was the only place where Esport didn't pop as a bubble.
Nature of Esport is fickle, whenever a new game is released by publishers to enhance or simply cash in a established franchise the majourity will shift. This is why in the west and everywhere outside of Korea we have the cyclical "esport boom" where its milk and honey for couple years and the scene either goes completely goes niche like Quake/CS/Dota or just simply die off.
On the topic of smash, oddly enough fighting game scene has remained mostly strong because people accept that new game will come and go and they just play for the shelf life of the game and move onto the next new fighting game (with few oddities like ST). I could see this being the case in the west, since many games have transferable skill. Though we'll never see something like God Young Ho exist simply because no one is a "professional gamer"
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On May 29 2011 23:04 aimaimaim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2011 22:44 Legatus Lanius wrote:
wasnt savior also selected for the olympic torch bearing or some shit? or am i off the plot Woah .. didn't know that because I came to BW when Bisu roflstomped Savior. That would be awesome if that's actually true
They asked Savior and Boxer. They refused though because they didn't like the choice to give the Olympic games to China, iirc.
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On May 29 2011 07:32 zobz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2011 07:10 Nemesis wrote:
I don't know why you are quoting my post, because I am in no way blaming blizzard for the viability of e-sports outside of Korea. The only blame that I am putting on them is trying to bring down the bw scene and well trying to force sc2 down people's throat(I couldn't care less about this if this doesn't include harming the BW scene). I understand that the foreigner mentality is just not viable for esports, but wth does that have to do with my post? The only thing I care about is enjoying my korean BW. My problem with your post was that you cited Blizzard being for-profit as a moral distinction between them and KeSPA. That was either a very careless choice of words or you actually believe that problems like this should be solved by removing those who would respond to the market instead of by changing the market.
Dude there's a hhhhhuuuuggggeeee differenc in behaviors and motivations.
Blizzard wants to sell copies and get direct income. Why re they trying to kill bw? Because they can no longer sell copies. Kespa doesnt care about copies, their interest is in maintaining viewership. That's why they keep on promoting the sport, getting fans. Once the game doesn't sell copies anymore, blizzard could care less, they'll want to kill it to promote their next game which will sell.
This kind of attitude is a scourge on a sport. You can't have a sport where the rules change every few years. Blizzard is killing bw now, and they'll be out to Kill wol for the zeg expac, and so on. In a few short years you'll be hearing about Starcraft three or perhaps some even worse micro transaction market place based scheme.
Kespa's incentives are well aligned with the needs of esports, but blizzard's are not. Esports is not an extremely profitable business, and blizzard thinks nothing of stepping all over it to make more money.
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EPT
