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Welcome to the Daytona 500.
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@letmelose
agreed. nicely said.
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This will make fans realize what blz's sc2 and companions are.
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LOL if KeSPA offered license fees for BW proleague and Gretech refused, they can run proleague while waiting to get sued by Gretech, because chances are Gretech will lose in court. It is they who refused the offer, not KeSPA, who offered to pay.
I don't think Gretech can demand an unreasonable price for the license either. They showed them the books. This will probably end up in court but doesn't look good for Blizzard and their pet dog Gretech.
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On September 01 2010 17:13 Letmelose wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Whatever bullshit Blizzard/Gretech is pulling for whatever reasons, is making the entire scene unstable. It won't be easy to persuade sponors to keep investing in the scene that is plagued with uncertainty, legal troubles and bad publicity overall. Not to mention the players themselves won't be able to showcast all their skills now they have their own livelihood to worry about.
I can see no good coming out of this, and since when did any of you care about the intellectual rights of a company that hardly is a victim of the idea that their game is the only product that manages to keep an entire industry consisting of numerous broadcasting companies, corporate sponsors, internet sites, alive. The industy was alive because we watched through the good times and the bad. Supported the players. Skipped classes to watch our favourite players live. Spent hours on numerous internet communities discussing the more important issues going on in the scene. It was the people's interest in the scene that allowed the scene to grow. And now Blizzard/Gretech wants to take all that away.
You can justify that all you want. I say it's total fucking bullshit. Blizzard didn't the scene. They shouldn't be able to hold us all at a gun point just because they made the game. It was the players. The teams that paid them. The broadcasters who employed professional observers, map-makers, casters and commentators. The fans who stood by their players and teams, the fans who got the broadcasting companies the necessary raitings. The fans who got the internet sites to stay alive with their non-stop activity within it.
Many of us, in one small way or the other. Made this entire thing happen. E-Sports wouldn't ahve existed without Blizzard? Fuck that. It wouldn't have existed without a lot of things clicking just right. Why the fuck would anybody empathize Blizzard's needs to disregard all the blood, sweat and tears devoted to get E-Sports to the point it is at now, for whatever the fuck it is that they feel we as a community owe to them for making such a great fucking game. I thought the debt was over the moment I paid for the game. But no. They feel I must bow down and suck on their crotch everytime I want to enjoy the by-products of their game. Apparently I can't enjoy shit without having to grovel for their permission and paying them money EVERY FUCKING TIME I WANT TO WATCH IT ON TELEVISION.
Don't you get it? We're the customers. We sustained the scene with our interest, which the corporate sponsors deemed enough in return for the pleasure of watching this amazing thing that is not available anywhere else. Now Blizzard comes barging in and starts to make demands that is way over-board both in terms of control and fincially speaking. They're not just fucking with Kespa here. They are FUCKING WITH YOU. STOP BEING HAPPY THAT YOU'RE BEING VIOLATED ANALLY BY A BUNCH OF MONEY HUNGRY FUCKHEADS.
Blizzard is essentially saying you can't fucking enjoy E-Sports without us getting our pockets full. Want to play our game? Pay us. Want to play our game on television. Pay us. Want to watch our game on television. FUCKING PAY US.
What part the E-Sports scene in Korea being threatened, Blizzard's message that what we do with their products will never be legally viable without their permission, and all the work we as a community have put in, no matter how small or insignificant in the grand scope of things, being PISSED ON by those fuckers. Why are some retards here celebrating the presence of a dictatorship on something that was not perfect, but relatively free from all this bullshit that has nothing to do with the beauty of the industry? Why are these mindless drones essentially mumbling: "OH CREATOR OF STARCRAFT WE BOW DOWN TO THEE AND WE ALL GLAD TO MEET YOUR INCESSANT NEED FOR MORE MONEY AND POWER. FUCK KESPA AND FUCK BROOD WARS. WE WILL PAY ALL THE CASH. WE WILL PAY ALL THE INTELLECTUAL RIGHTS EVERY TIME WE PLAY YOUR GAME COMPETITIVELY."
I say fuck that. And fuck you if you think we owe Blizzard a cent for something they hardly touched on all these years and have benefitted greatly from. It's the ultimate betrayal, and you have some serious issues of sadomasochism if you are greatly interested in making Blizzard richer even if it means having to sacrifice on your part.
I usually don't get involved in these discussions (i do care and get quite pissed when i see the amount of ignorance some people display), but this time i just can't sit on the sideline.
Quoting Letmelose, because i wholeheartedly agree with all he said.
Also agree with what Zona said. Look at the bigger picture people, and you'll understand exactly how bad things will get if Activision-Blizzard gets to be in control of the e-Sports scene.
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On September 01 2010 20:11 Zona wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 17:13 Letmelose wrote:
Whatever bullshit Blizzard/Gretech is pulling for whatever reasons, is making the entire scene unstable. It won't be easy to persuade sponors to keep investing in the scene that is plagued with uncertainty, legal troubles and bad publicity overall. Not to mention the players themselves won't be able to showcast all their skills now they have their own livelihood to worry about.
I can see no good coming out of this, and since when did any of you care about the intellectual rights of a company that hardly is a victim of the idea that their game is the only product that manages to keep an entire industry consisting of numerous broadcasting companies, corporate sponsors, internet sites, alive. The industy was alive because we watched through the good times and the bad. Supported the players. Skipped classes to watch our favourite players live. Spent hours on numerous internet communities discussing the more important issues going on in the scene. It was the people's interest in the scene that allowed the scene to grow. And now Blizzard/Gretech wants to take all that away.
You can justify that all you want. I say it's total fucking bullshit. Blizzard didn't the scene. They shouldn't be able to hold us all at a gun point just because they made the game. It was the players. The teams that paid them. The broadcasters who employed professional observers, map-makers, casters and commentators. The fans who stood by their players and teams, the fans who got the broadcasting companies the necessary raitings. The fans who got the internet sites to stay alive with their non-stop activity within it.
Many of us, in one small way or the other. Made this entire thing happen. E-Sports wouldn't ahve existed without Blizzard? Fuck that. It wouldn't have existed without a lot of things clicking just right. Why the fuck would anybody empathize Blizzard's needs to disregard all the blood, sweat and tears devoted to get E-Sports to the point it is at now, for whatever the fuck it is that they feel we as a community owe to them for making such a great fucking game. I thought the debt was over the moment I paid for the game. But no. They feel I must bow down and suck on their crotch everytime I want to enjoy the by-products of their game. Apparently I can't enjoy shit without having to grovel for their permission and paying them money EVERY FUCKING TIME I WANT TO WATCH IT ON TELEVISION.
Don't you get it? We're the customers. We sustained the scene with our interest, which the corporate sponsors deemed enough in return for the pleasure of watching this amazing thing that is not available anywhere else. Now Blizzard comes barging in and starts to make demands that is way over-board both in terms of control and fincially speaking. They're not just fucking with Kespa here. They are FUCKING WITH YOU. STOP BEING HAPPY THAT YOU'RE BEING VIOLATED ANALLY BY A BUNCH OF MONEY HUNGRY FUCKHEADS.
Blizzard is essentially saying you can't fucking enjoy E-Sports without us getting our pockets full. Want to play our game? Pay us. Want to play our game on television. Pay us. Want to watch our game on television. FUCKING PAY US.
What part the E-Sports scene in Korea being threatened, Blizzard's message that what we do with their products will never be legally viable without their permission, and all the work we as a community have put in, no matter how small or insignificant in the grand scope of things, being PISSED ON by those fuckers. Why are some retards here celebrating the presence of a dictatorship on something that was not perfect, but relatively free from all this bullshit that has nothing to do with the beauty of the industry? Why are these mindless drones essentially mumbling: "OH CREATOR OF STARCRAFT WE BOW DOWN TO THEE AND WE ALL GLAD TO MEET YOUR INCESSANT NEED FOR MORE MONEY AND POWER. FUCK KESPA AND FUCK BROOD WARS. WE WILL PAY ALL THE CASH. WE WILL PAY ALL THE INTELLECTUAL RIGHTS EVERY TIME WE PLAY YOUR GAME COMPETITIVELY."
I say fuck that. And fuck you if you think we owe Blizzard a cent for something they hardly touched on all these years and have benefitted greatly from. It's the ultimate betrayal, and you have some serious issues of sadomasochism if you are greatly interested in making Blizzard richer even if it means having to sacrifice on your part. It's a long post but I have to say I entirely agree with its sentiments. Of course those on TL who aren't BW fans don't feel personally affected by the events. But consider this - when Activision-Blizzard is putting out WC4 or SC3 and then shits on the SC2 scene how will you feel after you've invested in it as a player, a tournament organizer, or a fan? And keep in mind it'll be much easier for them to really close down on SC2 because they control every aspect of the game's multiplayer play, until BW.
Totally agree. There is room for both SC2 and BW to thrive. It's just plain greed that's making them try to shut down BW. I sense Activision's role in Blizzard's complete change of attitude.
edit- And now we find out Gom/Gretsch is going to charge 20$ a month for live stream and 30$ a month for VODs of the GSL. That just makes it even more clear to me who is being the most greedy here. Blizzard/Activision/Gretech are just out to suck the maximum amount of money out of eSports fans. Kespa were never this much about the money.
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On September 01 2010 21:17 junkacc wrote:
LOL if KeSPA offered license fees for BW proleague and Gretech refused, they can run proleague while waiting to get sued by Gretech, because chances are Gretech will lose in court. It is they who refused the offer, not KeSPA, who offered to pay.
That makes no sense. What's to say KeSPA's offer wasn't really fucking low and basically saying fuck you to Gretech? It's all about the amount.
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On September 01 2010 21:21 tomatriedes wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 01 2010 20:11 Zona wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 17:13 Letmelose wrote:
Whatever bullshit Blizzard/Gretech is pulling for whatever reasons, is making the entire scene unstable. It won't be easy to persuade sponors to keep investing in the scene that is plagued with uncertainty, legal troubles and bad publicity overall. Not to mention the players themselves won't be able to showcast all their skills now they have their own livelihood to worry about.
I can see no good coming out of this, and since when did any of you care about the intellectual rights of a company that hardly is a victim of the idea that their game is the only product that manages to keep an entire industry consisting of numerous broadcasting companies, corporate sponsors, internet sites, alive. The industy was alive because we watched through the good times and the bad. Supported the players. Skipped classes to watch our favourite players live. Spent hours on numerous internet communities discussing the more important issues going on in the scene. It was the people's interest in the scene that allowed the scene to grow. And now Blizzard/Gretech wants to take all that away.
You can justify that all you want. I say it's total fucking bullshit. Blizzard didn't the scene. They shouldn't be able to hold us all at a gun point just because they made the game. It was the players. The teams that paid them. The broadcasters who employed professional observers, map-makers, casters and commentators. The fans who stood by their players and teams, the fans who got the broadcasting companies the necessary raitings. The fans who got the internet sites to stay alive with their non-stop activity within it.
Many of us, in one small way or the other. Made this entire thing happen. E-Sports wouldn't ahve existed without Blizzard? Fuck that. It wouldn't have existed without a lot of things clicking just right. Why the fuck would anybody empathize Blizzard's needs to disregard all the blood, sweat and tears devoted to get E-Sports to the point it is at now, for whatever the fuck it is that they feel we as a community owe to them for making such a great fucking game. I thought the debt was over the moment I paid for the game. But no. They feel I must bow down and suck on their crotch everytime I want to enjoy the by-products of their game. Apparently I can't enjoy shit without having to grovel for their permission and paying them money EVERY FUCKING TIME I WANT TO WATCH IT ON TELEVISION.
Don't you get it? We're the customers. We sustained the scene with our interest, which the corporate sponsors deemed enough in return for the pleasure of watching this amazing thing that is not available anywhere else. Now Blizzard comes barging in and starts to make demands that is way over-board both in terms of control and fincially speaking. They're not just fucking with Kespa here. They are FUCKING WITH YOU. STOP BEING HAPPY THAT YOU'RE BEING VIOLATED ANALLY BY A BUNCH OF MONEY HUNGRY FUCKHEADS.
Blizzard is essentially saying you can't fucking enjoy E-Sports without us getting our pockets full. Want to play our game? Pay us. Want to play our game on television. Pay us. Want to watch our game on television. FUCKING PAY US.
What part the E-Sports scene in Korea being threatened, Blizzard's message that what we do with their products will never be legally viable without their permission, and all the work we as a community have put in, no matter how small or insignificant in the grand scope of things, being PISSED ON by those fuckers. Why are some retards here celebrating the presence of a dictatorship on something that was not perfect, but relatively free from all this bullshit that has nothing to do with the beauty of the industry? Why are these mindless drones essentially mumbling: "OH CREATOR OF STARCRAFT WE BOW DOWN TO THEE AND WE ALL GLAD TO MEET YOUR INCESSANT NEED FOR MORE MONEY AND POWER. FUCK KESPA AND FUCK BROOD WARS. WE WILL PAY ALL THE CASH. WE WILL PAY ALL THE INTELLECTUAL RIGHTS EVERY TIME WE PLAY YOUR GAME COMPETITIVELY."
I say fuck that. And fuck you if you think we owe Blizzard a cent for something they hardly touched on all these years and have benefitted greatly from. It's the ultimate betrayal, and you have some serious issues of sadomasochism if you are greatly interested in making Blizzard richer even if it means having to sacrifice on your part. It's a long post but I have to say I entirely agree with its sentiments. Of course those on TL who aren't BW fans don't feel personally affected by the events. But consider this - when Activision-Blizzard is putting out WC4 or SC3 and then shits on the SC2 scene how will you feel after you've invested in it as a player, a tournament organizer, or a fan? And keep in mind it'll be much easier for them to really close down on SC2 because they control every aspect of the game's multiplayer play, until BW. Totally agree. There is room for both SC2 and BW to thrive. It's just plain greed that's making them try to shut down BW. I sense Activision's role in Blizzard's complete change of attitude.
Greed, indeed. But let's not be naive here, it's universal greed and no one is 'innocent'. As has been stated, money makes the world go around. There wouldn't even be Proleague and SLs if there weren't chances for profit in them.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 01 2010 21:24 gillon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 21:17 junkacc wrote:
LOL if KeSPA offered license fees for BW proleague and Gretech refused, they can run proleague while waiting to get sued by Gretech, because chances are Gretech will lose in court. It is they who refused the offer, not KeSPA, who offered to pay. That makes no sense. What's to say KeSPA's offer wasn't really fucking low and basically saying fuck you to Gretech? It's all about the amount. However, Gretech, starting with the beginning of the 4th negotiation, has said that "We cannot sign off on the Proleague, since it will compete with the GSL",
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On September 01 2010 21:24 gillon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 21:17 junkacc wrote:
LOL if KeSPA offered license fees for BW proleague and Gretech refused, they can run proleague while waiting to get sued by Gretech, because chances are Gretech will lose in court. It is they who refused the offer, not KeSPA, who offered to pay. That makes no sense. What's to say KeSPA's offer wasn't really fucking low and basically saying fuck you to Gretech? It's all about the amount.
The details will come out in court. No use debating it here. The good news is, MSL and proleague will continue until this is resolved!!!
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Funny that Gretech is now trying to charge for livestreams now too... there's Blizzards future of eSports for you right there.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49496 Posts
On September 01 2010 21:28 junkacc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 21:24 gillon wrote:On September 01 2010 21:17 junkacc wrote:
LOL if KeSPA offered license fees for BW proleague and Gretech refused, they can run proleague while waiting to get sued by Gretech, because chances are Gretech will lose in court. It is they who refused the offer, not KeSPA, who offered to pay. That makes no sense. What's to say KeSPA's offer wasn't really fucking low and basically saying fuck you to Gretech? It's all about the amount. The details will come out in court. No use debating it here. The good news is, MSL and proleague will continue until this is resolved!!!
dude you better no be lying....source?
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On September 01 2010 21:27 gillon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 21:21 tomatriedes wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 01 2010 20:11 Zona wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 17:13 Letmelose wrote:
Whatever bullshit Blizzard/Gretech is pulling for whatever reasons, is making the entire scene unstable. It won't be easy to persuade sponors to keep investing in the scene that is plagued with uncertainty, legal troubles and bad publicity overall. Not to mention the players themselves won't be able to showcast all their skills now they have their own livelihood to worry about.
I can see no good coming out of this, and since when did any of you care about the intellectual rights of a company that hardly is a victim of the idea that their game is the only product that manages to keep an entire industry consisting of numerous broadcasting companies, corporate sponsors, internet sites, alive. The industy was alive because we watched through the good times and the bad. Supported the players. Skipped classes to watch our favourite players live. Spent hours on numerous internet communities discussing the more important issues going on in the scene. It was the people's interest in the scene that allowed the scene to grow. And now Blizzard/Gretech wants to take all that away.
You can justify that all you want. I say it's total fucking bullshit. Blizzard didn't the scene. They shouldn't be able to hold us all at a gun point just because they made the game. It was the players. The teams that paid them. The broadcasters who employed professional observers, map-makers, casters and commentators. The fans who stood by their players and teams, the fans who got the broadcasting companies the necessary raitings. The fans who got the internet sites to stay alive with their non-stop activity within it.
Many of us, in one small way or the other. Made this entire thing happen. E-Sports wouldn't ahve existed without Blizzard? Fuck that. It wouldn't have existed without a lot of things clicking just right. Why the fuck would anybody empathize Blizzard's needs to disregard all the blood, sweat and tears devoted to get E-Sports to the point it is at now, for whatever the fuck it is that they feel we as a community owe to them for making such a great fucking game. I thought the debt was over the moment I paid for the game. But no. They feel I must bow down and suck on their crotch everytime I want to enjoy the by-products of their game. Apparently I can't enjoy shit without having to grovel for their permission and paying them money EVERY FUCKING TIME I WANT TO WATCH IT ON TELEVISION.
Don't you get it? We're the customers. We sustained the scene with our interest, which the corporate sponsors deemed enough in return for the pleasure of watching this amazing thing that is not available anywhere else. Now Blizzard comes barging in and starts to make demands that is way over-board both in terms of control and fincially speaking. They're not just fucking with Kespa here. They are FUCKING WITH YOU. STOP BEING HAPPY THAT YOU'RE BEING VIOLATED ANALLY BY A BUNCH OF MONEY HUNGRY FUCKHEADS.
Blizzard is essentially saying you can't fucking enjoy E-Sports without us getting our pockets full. Want to play our game? Pay us. Want to play our game on television. Pay us. Want to watch our game on television. FUCKING PAY US.
What part the E-Sports scene in Korea being threatened, Blizzard's message that what we do with their products will never be legally viable without their permission, and all the work we as a community have put in, no matter how small or insignificant in the grand scope of things, being PISSED ON by those fuckers. Why are some retards here celebrating the presence of a dictatorship on something that was not perfect, but relatively free from all this bullshit that has nothing to do with the beauty of the industry? Why are these mindless drones essentially mumbling: "OH CREATOR OF STARCRAFT WE BOW DOWN TO THEE AND WE ALL GLAD TO MEET YOUR INCESSANT NEED FOR MORE MONEY AND POWER. FUCK KESPA AND FUCK BROOD WARS. WE WILL PAY ALL THE CASH. WE WILL PAY ALL THE INTELLECTUAL RIGHTS EVERY TIME WE PLAY YOUR GAME COMPETITIVELY."
I say fuck that. And fuck you if you think we owe Blizzard a cent for something they hardly touched on all these years and have benefitted greatly from. It's the ultimate betrayal, and you have some serious issues of sadomasochism if you are greatly interested in making Blizzard richer even if it means having to sacrifice on your part. It's a long post but I have to say I entirely agree with its sentiments. Of course those on TL who aren't BW fans don't feel personally affected by the events. But consider this - when Activision-Blizzard is putting out WC4 or SC3 and then shits on the SC2 scene how will you feel after you've invested in it as a player, a tournament organizer, or a fan? And keep in mind it'll be much easier for them to really close down on SC2 because they control every aspect of the game's multiplayer play, until BW. Totally agree. There is room for both SC2 and BW to thrive. It's just plain greed that's making them try to shut down BW. I sense Activision's role in Blizzard's complete change of attitude. Greed, indeed. But let's not be naive here, it's universal greed and no one is 'innocent'. As has been stated, money makes the world go around. There wouldn't even be Proleague and SLs if there weren't chances for profit in them.
We don't know the figures but I'm pretty sure Kespa was never reeling in a lot of money. It seemed to me they genuinely did care about keeping the scene going. Blizzard used to be like that too- celebrating the BW scene and letting it go on without hindrance- the tone's completely changed now however.
Acti-Blizzard just sold 3 million copies of SC2 in one month- they must be raking it in. The money from the BW leagues will be small potatoes by comparison. Do they really need to go after Kespa and potentially destroy the BW leagues at this late stage?
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On September 01 2010 21:39 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 21:28 junkacc wrote:On September 01 2010 21:24 gillon wrote:On September 01 2010 21:17 junkacc wrote:
LOL if KeSPA offered license fees for BW proleague and Gretech refused, they can run proleague while waiting to get sued by Gretech, because chances are Gretech will lose in court. It is they who refused the offer, not KeSPA, who offered to pay. That makes no sense. What's to say KeSPA's offer wasn't really fucking low and basically saying fuck you to Gretech? It's all about the amount. The details will come out in court. No use debating it here. The good news is, MSL and proleague will continue until this is resolved!!! dude you better no be lying....source?
That's how it works in the U.S. Until there's a winner, it's business as usual. I don't know how Korean courts do it, though.
Also, in the U.S, this kind of matter takes years to resolve.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49496 Posts
On September 01 2010 21:52 jpak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 21:39 BLinD-RawR wrote:On September 01 2010 21:28 junkacc wrote:On September 01 2010 21:24 gillon wrote:On September 01 2010 21:17 junkacc wrote:
LOL if KeSPA offered license fees for BW proleague and Gretech refused, they can run proleague while waiting to get sued by Gretech, because chances are Gretech will lose in court. It is they who refused the offer, not KeSPA, who offered to pay. That makes no sense. What's to say KeSPA's offer wasn't really fucking low and basically saying fuck you to Gretech? It's all about the amount. The details will come out in court. No use debating it here. The good news is, MSL and proleague will continue until this is resolved!!! dude you better no be lying....source? That's how it works in the U.S. Until there's a winner, it's business as usual. I don't know how Korean courts do it, though. Also, in the U.S, this kind of matter takes years to resolve.
that made me smile. 
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On September 01 2010 21:52 jpak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 21:39 BLinD-RawR wrote:On September 01 2010 21:28 junkacc wrote:On September 01 2010 21:24 gillon wrote:On September 01 2010 21:17 junkacc wrote:
LOL if KeSPA offered license fees for BW proleague and Gretech refused, they can run proleague while waiting to get sued by Gretech, because chances are Gretech will lose in court. It is they who refused the offer, not KeSPA, who offered to pay. That makes no sense. What's to say KeSPA's offer wasn't really fucking low and basically saying fuck you to Gretech? It's all about the amount. The details will come out in court. No use debating it here. The good news is, MSL and proleague will continue until this is resolved!!! dude you better no be lying....source? That's how it works in the U.S. Until there's a winner, it's business as usual. I don't know how Korean courts do it, though. Also, in the U.S, this kind of matter takes years to resolve.
I know nothing about Korean law, but if this were the U.S. Blizz/Gre would file an injunction to stop the leagues dead in their tracks while they muddied everything up in the courts. Lets hope a similar thing cant happen in Korea.
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An injunction takes time and in the event Gretech lose, they'll pay huge compensations. I think Gretech will need to consult with its Blizz masters to do that.
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5003 Posts
On September 01 2010 20:43 lololol wrote:
Selling intellectual property rights to OGN and MBC, when they do not own and have never owned the rights to Starcraft, and even not aknowledging Blizzard has the rights to Starcraft at all during 3 years of negotiations. They boycotted GOM... yeah, that surely shows they care for e-sports, right?
And this is far from a full list of all the shit kespa has done.
If anything kespa is a symbol of all that is currently wrong with progaming in Korea.
Blizzard-Activision is the symbol of all that is wrong with profit driven game making in the world.
Which is worse?
Also, there's a difference between supporting and paying for damages because it'll compete with the GSL.
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Someone clarify this for me: "Non-profit" can mask massive expenses in the form of large salaries. Are the 'higher-ups' in Kespa on large salaries?
I find people throw around the term "non-profit" without realising such organisations can make certain people extremely wealthy... even if they don't make a profit.
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On September 01 2010 22:23 Milkis wrote:
Also, there's a difference between supporting and paying for damages because it'll compete with the GSL.
THIS is what NOBODY here seems to realize. It's so frustrating.
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EPT
