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I can't really judge anything from just 1 side of the story just yet but wasn't it with the IEM incident that the TLO vs NaDa showmatch said that KeSpa didn't want any stream be streamed to the koreans in south korea ?
I'm wondering why would they want to do this?
You would think they don't want to support sc2 but then the line of and I quote: "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV. If Gretech is like this, then there isn't any more point of negotiations". You have no reason just now ?
You didn't had any reasons when IEM streamed the showmatch and it got re-streamed to Korea and you pulled the plug for what reason then?
It's very vague of KeSpa and we really need to know the sotry of Gretech's point of view to know the whole view but just that action done at IEM clearly suggests that KeSpa are not telling everything of their motives.
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On September 01 2010 19:27 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 19:21 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:11 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:07 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:04 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 18:58 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 18:54 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 17:11 Cowazon wrote:
Since when did SC2 become such a successful esport that we conclude that Kespa "not caring about SC2" means that they "don't care about esports"?
When SC2 "progamers" can earn a stable salary regardless of performance in tournaments, then SC2 can begin to be considered a successful esport. Taking a day or two off work/school to practice for a SC2 tournament (whose entire viewership is limited to other people that play the game) doesn't earn you the right to call yourself a progamer. SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed. On September 01 2010 17:40 maybenexttime wrote:On September 01 2010 16:47 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 00:55 maybenexttime wrote:
[quote]
KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition?
KeSPA already has. With that said, I dont see how anyone can be defending KeSPA. If they were really behind ESports, they would not be trying to make sure that BW is the ONLY significant ESport around. Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed. Is your reading comprehension really that bad? Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?! Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense. "Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed." EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been? On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA? Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part... KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV" That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed. It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP. BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all. Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless. And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea. Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up. Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys". The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words. Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating. This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to. They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa. KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP. KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want. Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games? Would you enjoy it if you made a movie, and then a company who has been using the IP from that movie for years refused to support the movies sequel? Things like that are exactly why IP laws exist. BTW, if you want to use your example, it's a bit off. In this case Blizzard would be FIFA. They are the property owner. It's their say what goes on with the games. Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels. IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports. Blizzard has shown no intent to kill off BW. They are negotiating with them and you have not seen them mention ANYWHERE that "KeSPA ONLY has to support SC2, and not BW". That hasnt happened. The only company that has shown a CLEAR intent to support ONLY ONE GAME... is KeSPA. Not Blizzard or Gretech. Hell, it would be a good business decision if BOTH games thrived. The only company named here that gets anything out of only one game thriving, is KeSPA.
Did you read the thread? Blizzard/Gretech clearly see BW as a competitor to GSL. They won't give anyone a contract for BW unless they also promote SC2 aka supporting 2 games that compete against each other, which indirectly helps to kill BW.
On September 01 2010 19:30 Blondinbengt wrote:Show nested quote +Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels.
IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports. Well, a similar argument could be made against Kespa. Blizzard provided the game that Kespa used to establish an esport-scene in Korea, now Blizzard is asking Kespa to let Sc2 into the scene to compete with Sc1 on equal footing and Kespa is saying ''Fuck off'' and doing things that hinder the development of Sc2 as an esports-game. Why are you only going after Blizzard/Gretech for trying to push Sc1 out of the way but not after Kespa for trying to push Sc2 out of the way?
Kespa has no control over what blizzard wants to do with sc2. Kespa only has control over what it is responsible for.
Anyway should we be supportive of the money grubbing blizzard, or the kespa that has developed esports more than anyone else. gee i wonder what would be better for esports.
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On September 01 2010 19:32 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 19:27 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:21 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:11 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:07 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:04 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 18:58 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 18:54 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 17:11 Cowazon wrote:
Since when did SC2 become such a successful esport that we conclude that Kespa "not caring about SC2" means that they "don't care about esports"?
When SC2 "progamers" can earn a stable salary regardless of performance in tournaments, then SC2 can begin to be considered a successful esport. Taking a day or two off work/school to practice for a SC2 tournament (whose entire viewership is limited to other people that play the game) doesn't earn you the right to call yourself a progamer. SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed. On September 01 2010 17:40 maybenexttime wrote:On September 01 2010 16:47 Spyridon wrote:
[quote]
KeSPA already has.
With that said, I dont see how anyone can be defending KeSPA. If they were really behind ESports, they would not be trying to make sure that BW is the ONLY significant ESport around. Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed. Is your reading comprehension really that bad? Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?! Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense. "Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed." EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been? On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA? Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part... KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV" That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed. It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP. BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all. Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless. And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea. Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up. Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys". The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words. Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating. This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to. They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa. KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP. KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want. Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games? Would you enjoy it if you made a movie, and then a company who has been using the IP from that movie for years refused to support the movies sequel? Things like that are exactly why IP laws exist. BTW, if you want to use your example, it's a bit off. In this case Blizzard would be FIFA. They are the property owner. It's their say what goes on with the games. Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels. IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports. Blizzard has shown no intent to kill off BW. They are negotiating with them and you have not seen them mention ANYWHERE that "KeSPA ONLY has to support SC2, and not BW". That hasnt happened. The only company that has shown a CLEAR intent to support ONLY ONE GAME... is KeSPA. Not Blizzard or Gretech. Hell, it would be a good business decision if BOTH games thrived. The only company named here that gets anything out of only one game thriving, is KeSPA. Did you read the thread? Blizzard/Gretech clearly see BW as a competitor to GSL. They won't give anyone a contract for BW unless they also promote SC2 aka supporting 2 games that compete against each other, which indirectly helps to kill BW.
SC2 has been released already and BW isnt dead.
Supporting 2 games only allows both to be played. It doesnt say anywhere that any BW players are required to leave for SC2.
The only thing that would change is that if a pro player WANTED to play SC2, they would be able to, without the streams getting shut down like KeSPA pulled at IEM.
Shouldnt pros be able to play SC2 if they want, without having KeSPA pull the plug?
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On September 01 2010 19:36 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 19:32 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:27 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:21 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:11 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:07 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:04 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 18:58 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 18:54 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 17:11 Cowazon wrote:
Since when did SC2 become such a successful esport that we conclude that Kespa "not caring about SC2" means that they "don't care about esports"?
When SC2 "progamers" can earn a stable salary regardless of performance in tournaments, then SC2 can begin to be considered a successful esport. Taking a day or two off work/school to practice for a SC2 tournament (whose entire viewership is limited to other people that play the game) doesn't earn you the right to call yourself a progamer. SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed. On September 01 2010 17:40 maybenexttime wrote:
[quote]
Is your reading comprehension really that bad?
Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?!
Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense.
"Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed."
EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been? On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA? Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part... KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV" That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed. It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP. BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all. Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless. And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea. Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up. Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys". The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words. Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating. This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to. They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa. KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP. KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want. Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games? Would you enjoy it if you made a movie, and then a company who has been using the IP from that movie for years refused to support the movies sequel? Things like that are exactly why IP laws exist. BTW, if you want to use your example, it's a bit off. In this case Blizzard would be FIFA. They are the property owner. It's their say what goes on with the games. Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels. IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports. Blizzard has shown no intent to kill off BW. They are negotiating with them and you have not seen them mention ANYWHERE that "KeSPA ONLY has to support SC2, and not BW". That hasnt happened. The only company that has shown a CLEAR intent to support ONLY ONE GAME... is KeSPA. Not Blizzard or Gretech. Hell, it would be a good business decision if BOTH games thrived. The only company named here that gets anything out of only one game thriving, is KeSPA. Did you read the thread? Blizzard/Gretech clearly see BW as a competitor to GSL. They won't give anyone a contract for BW unless they also promote SC2 aka supporting 2 games that compete against each other, which indirectly helps to kill BW. SC2 has been released already and BW isnt dead. Supporting 2 games only allows both to be played. It doesnt say anywhere that any BW players are required to leave for SC2. The only thing that would change is that if a pro player WANTED to play SC2, they would be able to, without the streams getting shut down like KeSPA pulled at IEM. Shouldnt pros be able to play SC2 if they want, without having KeSPA pull the plug?
If both games are trying to become legitimate esports and both air at primetime in korea, guess what, they are in competition with each other.
Your perception of this situation is a bit off, these are PROFESSIONALS who play BW for a living. It is not the same as a casual gamer just switching between games on his desktop on a whim.
If you are playing BW professionally you shouldn't be trying to play SC2 professionally at the same time.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 01 2010 19:36 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 19:32 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:27 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:21 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:11 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:07 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:04 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 18:58 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 18:54 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 17:11 Cowazon wrote:
Since when did SC2 become such a successful esport that we conclude that Kespa "not caring about SC2" means that they "don't care about esports"?
When SC2 "progamers" can earn a stable salary regardless of performance in tournaments, then SC2 can begin to be considered a successful esport. Taking a day or two off work/school to practice for a SC2 tournament (whose entire viewership is limited to other people that play the game) doesn't earn you the right to call yourself a progamer. SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed. On September 01 2010 17:40 maybenexttime wrote:
[quote]
Is your reading comprehension really that bad?
Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?!
Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense.
"Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed."
EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been? On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA? Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part... KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV" That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed. It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP. BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all. Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless. And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea. Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up. Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys". The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words. Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating. This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to. They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa. KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP. KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want. Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games? Would you enjoy it if you made a movie, and then a company who has been using the IP from that movie for years refused to support the movies sequel? Things like that are exactly why IP laws exist. BTW, if you want to use your example, it's a bit off. In this case Blizzard would be FIFA. They are the property owner. It's their say what goes on with the games. Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels. IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports. Blizzard has shown no intent to kill off BW. They are negotiating with them and you have not seen them mention ANYWHERE that "KeSPA ONLY has to support SC2, and not BW". That hasnt happened. The only company that has shown a CLEAR intent to support ONLY ONE GAME... is KeSPA. Not Blizzard or Gretech. Hell, it would be a good business decision if BOTH games thrived. The only company named here that gets anything out of only one game thriving, is KeSPA. Did you read the thread? Blizzard/Gretech clearly see BW as a competitor to GSL. They won't give anyone a contract for BW unless they also promote SC2 aka supporting 2 games that compete against each other, which indirectly helps to kill BW. SC2 has been released already and BW isnt dead. Supporting 2 games only allows both to be played. It doesnt say anywhere that any BW players are required to leave for SC2. The only thing that would change is that if a pro player WANTED to play SC2, they would be able to, without the streams getting shut down like KeSPA pulled at IEM. Shouldnt pros be able to play SC2 if they want, without having KeSPA pull the plug? If a KeSPA licensed player is playing broadcasted SC2 in korea, which KeSPA doesn't have a licence to broadcast because only GOM does, then do they have any choice but to pull the plug since they are legally liable? You know that GOM banned the participation players actively using their progaming licence in GSL right? Clearly they are trying to create a divide here.
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On September 01 2010 19:40 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 19:36 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:32 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:27 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:21 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:11 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:07 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:04 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 18:58 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 18:54 Spyridon wrote:
[quote]
SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed.
[quote]
On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA?
Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part...
KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV"
That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed.
It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP.
BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all.
Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless.
And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea.
Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up.
Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys".
The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words. Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating. This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to. They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa. KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP. KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want. Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games? Would you enjoy it if you made a movie, and then a company who has been using the IP from that movie for years refused to support the movies sequel? Things like that are exactly why IP laws exist. BTW, if you want to use your example, it's a bit off. In this case Blizzard would be FIFA. They are the property owner. It's their say what goes on with the games. Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels. IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports. Blizzard has shown no intent to kill off BW. They are negotiating with them and you have not seen them mention ANYWHERE that "KeSPA ONLY has to support SC2, and not BW". That hasnt happened. The only company that has shown a CLEAR intent to support ONLY ONE GAME... is KeSPA. Not Blizzard or Gretech. Hell, it would be a good business decision if BOTH games thrived. The only company named here that gets anything out of only one game thriving, is KeSPA. Did you read the thread? Blizzard/Gretech clearly see BW as a competitor to GSL. They won't give anyone a contract for BW unless they also promote SC2 aka supporting 2 games that compete against each other, which indirectly helps to kill BW. SC2 has been released already and BW isnt dead. Supporting 2 games only allows both to be played. It doesnt say anywhere that any BW players are required to leave for SC2. The only thing that would change is that if a pro player WANTED to play SC2, they would be able to, without the streams getting shut down like KeSPA pulled at IEM. Shouldnt pros be able to play SC2 if they want, without having KeSPA pull the plug? If both games are trying to become legitimate esports and both air at primetime in korea, guess what, they are in competition with each other.
You know I've seen so many people saying how BW is a superior esport, then why are people so scared of SC2 being played alongside BW?
If BW is really a superior esport, then the pros will CHOOSE to stick with BW, and there is nothing to worry about.
KeSPA is obviously worried for a reason... now what would you think that reason might be?
Either way, I completely disagree with anyone who claims KeSPA is all about esports, when they are only supporting BW and refusing to support SC2 in the esport community.
How are esports going to ever become bigger in the future if only BW is supported?
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On September 01 2010 19:43 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 19:40 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:36 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:32 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:27 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:21 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:11 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:07 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:04 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 18:58 robertdinh wrote:
[quote]
Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating.
This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to.
They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa. KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP. KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want. Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games? Would you enjoy it if you made a movie, and then a company who has been using the IP from that movie for years refused to support the movies sequel? Things like that are exactly why IP laws exist. BTW, if you want to use your example, it's a bit off. In this case Blizzard would be FIFA. They are the property owner. It's their say what goes on with the games. Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels. IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports. Blizzard has shown no intent to kill off BW. They are negotiating with them and you have not seen them mention ANYWHERE that "KeSPA ONLY has to support SC2, and not BW". That hasnt happened. The only company that has shown a CLEAR intent to support ONLY ONE GAME... is KeSPA. Not Blizzard or Gretech. Hell, it would be a good business decision if BOTH games thrived. The only company named here that gets anything out of only one game thriving, is KeSPA. Did you read the thread? Blizzard/Gretech clearly see BW as a competitor to GSL. They won't give anyone a contract for BW unless they also promote SC2 aka supporting 2 games that compete against each other, which indirectly helps to kill BW. SC2 has been released already and BW isnt dead. Supporting 2 games only allows both to be played. It doesnt say anywhere that any BW players are required to leave for SC2. The only thing that would change is that if a pro player WANTED to play SC2, they would be able to, without the streams getting shut down like KeSPA pulled at IEM. Shouldnt pros be able to play SC2 if they want, without having KeSPA pull the plug? If both games are trying to become legitimate esports and both air at primetime in korea, guess what, they are in competition with each other. You know I've seen so many people saying how BW is a superior esport, then why are people so scared of SC2 being played alongside BW? If BW is really a superior esport, then the pros will CHOOSE to stick with BW, and there is nothing to worry about. KeSPA is obviously worried for a reason... now what would you think that reason might be?
Kespa isn't scared of sc2, sc2 has many flaws compared to bw as an esport, they have every right to be concerned with blizz and gretech trying to monopolize esports in korea through perpetuating SC2 and killing off bw though.
These IP issues exist now not because blizzard cares about bw as an esport, and their rights to BW, they exist because blizzard wants to pave the way for SC2, and giving kespa a bunch of legal hoops to jump through just to keep BW afloat helps to make way for sc2.
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On September 01 2010 19:45 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 19:43 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:40 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:36 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:32 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:27 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:21 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:11 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:07 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:04 Spyridon wrote:
[quote]
KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP.
KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want. Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games? Would you enjoy it if you made a movie, and then a company who has been using the IP from that movie for years refused to support the movies sequel? Things like that are exactly why IP laws exist. BTW, if you want to use your example, it's a bit off. In this case Blizzard would be FIFA. They are the property owner. It's their say what goes on with the games. Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels. IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports. Blizzard has shown no intent to kill off BW. They are negotiating with them and you have not seen them mention ANYWHERE that "KeSPA ONLY has to support SC2, and not BW". That hasnt happened. The only company that has shown a CLEAR intent to support ONLY ONE GAME... is KeSPA. Not Blizzard or Gretech. Hell, it would be a good business decision if BOTH games thrived. The only company named here that gets anything out of only one game thriving, is KeSPA. Did you read the thread? Blizzard/Gretech clearly see BW as a competitor to GSL. They won't give anyone a contract for BW unless they also promote SC2 aka supporting 2 games that compete against each other, which indirectly helps to kill BW. SC2 has been released already and BW isnt dead. Supporting 2 games only allows both to be played. It doesnt say anywhere that any BW players are required to leave for SC2. The only thing that would change is that if a pro player WANTED to play SC2, they would be able to, without the streams getting shut down like KeSPA pulled at IEM. Shouldnt pros be able to play SC2 if they want, without having KeSPA pull the plug? If both games are trying to become legitimate esports and both air at primetime in korea, guess what, they are in competition with each other. You know I've seen so many people saying how BW is a superior esport, then why are people so scared of SC2 being played alongside BW? If BW is really a superior esport, then the pros will CHOOSE to stick with BW, and there is nothing to worry about. KeSPA is obviously worried for a reason... now what would you think that reason might be? Kespa isn't scared of sc2, sc2 has many flaws compared to bw as an esport, they have every right to be concerned with blizz and gretech trying to monopolize esports in korea through perpetuating SC2 and killing off bw though.
If thats true, they would have no reason to try to prevent the coexistence.
It's not a monopoly until Blizzard decides to say "We only want to support SC2 and not BW". Which has not been said.
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On September 01 2010 19:46 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 19:45 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:43 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:40 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:36 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:32 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:27 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:21 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:11 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:07 robertdinh wrote:
[quote]
Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games? Would you enjoy it if you made a movie, and then a company who has been using the IP from that movie for years refused to support the movies sequel? Things like that are exactly why IP laws exist. BTW, if you want to use your example, it's a bit off. In this case Blizzard would be FIFA. They are the property owner. It's their say what goes on with the games. Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels. IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports. Blizzard has shown no intent to kill off BW. They are negotiating with them and you have not seen them mention ANYWHERE that "KeSPA ONLY has to support SC2, and not BW". That hasnt happened. The only company that has shown a CLEAR intent to support ONLY ONE GAME... is KeSPA. Not Blizzard or Gretech. Hell, it would be a good business decision if BOTH games thrived. The only company named here that gets anything out of only one game thriving, is KeSPA. Did you read the thread? Blizzard/Gretech clearly see BW as a competitor to GSL. They won't give anyone a contract for BW unless they also promote SC2 aka supporting 2 games that compete against each other, which indirectly helps to kill BW. SC2 has been released already and BW isnt dead. Supporting 2 games only allows both to be played. It doesnt say anywhere that any BW players are required to leave for SC2. The only thing that would change is that if a pro player WANTED to play SC2, they would be able to, without the streams getting shut down like KeSPA pulled at IEM. Shouldnt pros be able to play SC2 if they want, without having KeSPA pull the plug? If both games are trying to become legitimate esports and both air at primetime in korea, guess what, they are in competition with each other. You know I've seen so many people saying how BW is a superior esport, then why are people so scared of SC2 being played alongside BW? If BW is really a superior esport, then the pros will CHOOSE to stick with BW, and there is nothing to worry about. KeSPA is obviously worried for a reason... now what would you think that reason might be? Kespa isn't scared of sc2, sc2 has many flaws compared to bw as an esport, they have every right to be concerned with blizz and gretech trying to monopolize esports in korea through perpetuating SC2 and killing off bw though. If thats true, they would have no reason to try to prevent the coexistence. It's not a monopoly until Blizzard decides to say "We only want to support SC2 and not BW". Which has not been said.
Blizzard can't say that cause it will kill all support for sc2 in korea. They can only try to kill BW off through maneuvering.
It's a shame you can't see what blizzard has done here. They are trying to make it as difficult as possible to keep bw proleagues going, specifically so that BW will dwindle so that they can try to force sc2 down everyone's throat as an esport.
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For everyone who simply is saying "it's just their word against each other" - please do try to weigh all the other available evidence, such as the actions of the companies outside negotiations. Such as Activision-Blizzard's clear philosophy on how they built battle.net 2.0 - full control on their side over every aspect of the game, all of your data submitted to them, all your games played through their servers, etc and then weigh Kespa's claims with that in mind.
Kespa is no saint - the sponsors try to keep their costs down and the product stable and in doing so do no favors to the players' well being, but Activision-Blizzard is trying to eliminate an entire scene just to slightly boost the potential audience and playerbase of their new game.
If Activision-Blizzard really does succeed in greatly harming the BW scene and reducing competition for SC2, won't sponsors realize that investing in the SC2 scene will also be ephemeral and once Activision-Blizzard puts out a new product, they'll stab the SC2 scene in the back as well? Activision-Blizzard has shown that it's all about short term gains and not long term sustainable rewards - look at how it milked Guitar Hero and Tony Hawk until the two brands are now empty husks, look how they treated Infinity Ward's key staff, and more.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 01 2010 19:43 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 19:40 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:36 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:32 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:27 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:21 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:11 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:07 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:04 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 18:58 robertdinh wrote:
[quote]
Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating.
This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to.
They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa. KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP. KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want. Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games? Would you enjoy it if you made a movie, and then a company who has been using the IP from that movie for years refused to support the movies sequel? Things like that are exactly why IP laws exist. BTW, if you want to use your example, it's a bit off. In this case Blizzard would be FIFA. They are the property owner. It's their say what goes on with the games. Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels. IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports. Blizzard has shown no intent to kill off BW. They are negotiating with them and you have not seen them mention ANYWHERE that "KeSPA ONLY has to support SC2, and not BW". That hasnt happened. The only company that has shown a CLEAR intent to support ONLY ONE GAME... is KeSPA. Not Blizzard or Gretech. Hell, it would be a good business decision if BOTH games thrived. The only company named here that gets anything out of only one game thriving, is KeSPA. Did you read the thread? Blizzard/Gretech clearly see BW as a competitor to GSL. They won't give anyone a contract for BW unless they also promote SC2 aka supporting 2 games that compete against each other, which indirectly helps to kill BW. SC2 has been released already and BW isnt dead. Supporting 2 games only allows both to be played. It doesnt say anywhere that any BW players are required to leave for SC2. The only thing that would change is that if a pro player WANTED to play SC2, they would be able to, without the streams getting shut down like KeSPA pulled at IEM. Shouldnt pros be able to play SC2 if they want, without having KeSPA pull the plug? If both games are trying to become legitimate esports and both air at primetime in korea, guess what, they are in competition with each other. You know I've seen so many people saying how BW is a superior esport, then why are people so scared of SC2 being played alongside BW? If BW is really a superior esport, then the pros will CHOOSE to stick with BW, and there is nothing to worry about. KeSPA is obviously worried for a reason... now what would you think that reason might be? Either way, I completely disagree with anyone who claims KeSPA is all about esports, when they are only supporting BW and refusing to support SC2 in the esport community. How are esports going to ever become bigger in the future if only BW is supported?
KeSPA aren't scared - they're prepared to not make a profit from PL in return for a licence - that's about as ballsy as you can get. They're "refusing" to support SC2 because they legally are not allowed to - GOM has the exclusive rights. Do you think GOM is going to let KeSPA try and get in on the SC2 scene? Not a chance.
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On September 01 2010 19:48 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 19:46 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:45 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:43 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:40 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:36 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:32 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:27 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:21 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:11 Spyridon wrote:
[quote]
Would you enjoy it if you made a movie, and then a company who has been using the IP from that movie for years refused to support the movies sequel?
Things like that are exactly why IP laws exist.
BTW, if you want to use your example, it's a bit off. In this case Blizzard would be FIFA. They are the property owner. It's their say what goes on with the games. Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels. IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports. Blizzard has shown no intent to kill off BW. They are negotiating with them and you have not seen them mention ANYWHERE that "KeSPA ONLY has to support SC2, and not BW". That hasnt happened. The only company that has shown a CLEAR intent to support ONLY ONE GAME... is KeSPA. Not Blizzard or Gretech. Hell, it would be a good business decision if BOTH games thrived. The only company named here that gets anything out of only one game thriving, is KeSPA. Did you read the thread? Blizzard/Gretech clearly see BW as a competitor to GSL. They won't give anyone a contract for BW unless they also promote SC2 aka supporting 2 games that compete against each other, which indirectly helps to kill BW. SC2 has been released already and BW isnt dead. Supporting 2 games only allows both to be played. It doesnt say anywhere that any BW players are required to leave for SC2. The only thing that would change is that if a pro player WANTED to play SC2, they would be able to, without the streams getting shut down like KeSPA pulled at IEM. Shouldnt pros be able to play SC2 if they want, without having KeSPA pull the plug? If both games are trying to become legitimate esports and both air at primetime in korea, guess what, they are in competition with each other. You know I've seen so many people saying how BW is a superior esport, then why are people so scared of SC2 being played alongside BW? If BW is really a superior esport, then the pros will CHOOSE to stick with BW, and there is nothing to worry about. KeSPA is obviously worried for a reason... now what would you think that reason might be? Kespa isn't scared of sc2, sc2 has many flaws compared to bw as an esport, they have every right to be concerned with blizz and gretech trying to monopolize esports in korea through perpetuating SC2 and killing off bw though. If thats true, they would have no reason to try to prevent the coexistence. It's not a monopoly until Blizzard decides to say "We only want to support SC2 and not BW". Which has not been said. Blizzard can't say that cause it will kill all support for sc2 in korea. They can only try to kill BW off through maneuvering. It's a shame you can't see what blizzard has done here. They are trying to make it as difficult as possible to keep bw proleagues going, specifically so that BW will dwindle so that they can try to force sc2 down everyone's throat as an esport.
The only thing making it difficult for BW proleagues to keep going, is KeSPA refusing to even allow SC2 a chance.
Noones forcing SC2 down everyones throat if Blizzard is not forcing BW to stop. Blizzard has only asked for them to not shoot down SC2, not for any BW players to stop playing BW.
If they do what Blizzard asks, BW scene will be the exact same way it is now, except players will have a chance to play SC2 if they want. What's so bad about that?
This conversation is going nowhere though, as there is a double standard going on here.
It’s okay for KeSPA to ONLY support BW, by that mentality it should be okay for Blizzard to only support SC2.
But that’s not even whats happening! Blizzard wants BOTH games to be supported, and KeSPA dont want that.
KeSPA did great things for the Esport comunity, but if they refuse to negotiate, they are only contributing to denying a CHANCE for Esports to grow.
Will SC2 turn in to a big Esport? Who knows. Will BW remain bigger because it really is the superior game? Who knows.
Do you think Esports will ever grow larger than they are now if BW is the only game supported in to the future?
Refusing to support any game other than BW will only result in Esports stagnating.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 01 2010 19:50 Zona wrote:
For everyone who simply is saying "it's just their word against each other" - please do try to weigh all the other available evidence, such as the actions of the companies outside negotiations. Such as Activision-Blizzard's clear philosophy on how they built battle.net 2.0 - full control on their side over every aspect of the game, all of your data submitted to them, all your games played through their servers, etc and then weigh Kespa's claims with that in mind.
Kespa is no saint - the sponsors try to keep their costs down and the product stable and in doing so do no favors to the players' well being, but Activision-Blizzard is trying to eliminate an entire scene just to slightly boost the potential audience and playerbase of their new game.
If Activision-Blizzard really does succeed in greatly harming the BW scene and reducing competition for SC2, won't sponsors realize that investing in the SC2 scene will also be ephemeral and once Activision-Blizzard puts out a new product, they'll stab the SC2 scene in the back as well? Activision-Blizzard has shown that it's all about short term gains and not long term sustainable rewards - look at how it milked Guitar Hero and Tony Hawk until the two brands are now empty husks, look how they treated Infinity Ward's key staff, and more.
Yes I myself am unfamiliar with most activities of both parties and hearing both stories won't cut it alone.
Like I said in my post you need to watch their actions towards other games/matters like how you described activision and guitar hero.
In my understanding and view there just won't be a winner beneficial to the public only to the parties fighting themselves.
How I see it is that there are 3 parties involved in this matter where 2 parties are actually fighting eachother (the third are the public people playing the game and spectating).
The best way would of course if the third party got the best gain of it (bigger and better E-Sport) thus it would be better for the other 2 parties (more sales for Activision and more viewers for KeSpa thus more sponsor income for them).
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On September 01 2010 17:13 Letmelose wrote:
Whatever bullshit Blizzard/Gretech is pulling for whatever reasons, is making the entire scene unstable. It won't be easy to persuade sponors to keep investing in the scene that is plagued with uncertainty, legal troubles and bad publicity overall. Not to mention the players themselves won't be able to showcast all their skills now they have their own livelihood to worry about.
I can see no good coming out of this, and since when did any of you care about the intellectual rights of a company that hardly is a victim of the idea that their game is the only product that manages to keep an entire industry consisting of numerous broadcasting companies, corporate sponsors, internet sites, alive. The industy was alive because we watched through the good times and the bad. Supported the players. Skipped classes to watch our favourite players live. Spent hours on numerous internet communities discussing the more important issues going on in the scene. It was the people's interest in the scene that allowed the scene to grow. And now Blizzard/Gretech wants to take all that away.
You can justify that all you want. I say it's total fucking bullshit. Blizzard didn't the scene. They shouldn't be able to hold us all at a gun point just because they made the game. It was the players. The teams that paid them. The broadcasters who employed professional observers, map-makers, casters and commentators. The fans who stood by their players and teams, the fans who got the broadcasting companies the necessary raitings. The fans who got the internet sites to stay alive with their non-stop activity within it.
Many of us, in one small way or the other. Made this entire thing happen. E-Sports wouldn't ahve existed without Blizzard? Fuck that. It wouldn't have existed without a lot of things clicking just right. Why the fuck would anybody empathize Blizzard's needs to disregard all the blood, sweat and tears devoted to get E-Sports to the point it is at now, for whatever the fuck it is that they feel we as a community owe to them for making such a great fucking game. I thought the debt was over the moment I paid for the game. But no. They feel I must bow down and suck on their crotch everytime I want to enjoy the by-products of their game. Apparently I can't enjoy shit without having to grovel for their permission and paying them money EVERY FUCKING TIME I WANT TO WATCH IT ON TELEVISION.
Don't you get it? We're the customers. We sustained the scene with our interest, which the corporate sponsors deemed enough in return for the pleasure of watching this amazing thing that is not available anywhere else. Now Blizzard comes barging in and starts to make demands that is way over-board both in terms of control and fincially speaking. They're not just fucking with Kespa here. They are FUCKING WITH YOU. STOP BEING HAPPY THAT YOU'RE BEING VIOLATED ANALLY BY A BUNCH OF MONEY HUNGRY FUCKHEADS.
Blizzard is essentially saying you can't fucking enjoy E-Sports without us getting our pockets full. Want to play our game? Pay us. Want to play our game on television. Pay us. Want to watch our game on television. FUCKING PAY US.
What part the E-Sports scene in Korea being threatened, Blizzard's message that what we do with their products will never be legally viable without their permission, and all the work we as a community have put in, no matter how small or insignificant in the grand scope of things, being PISSED ON by those fuckers. Why are some retards here celebrating the presence of a dictatorship on something that was not perfect, but relatively free from all this bullshit that has nothing to do with the beauty of the industry? Why are these mindless drones essentially mumbling: "OH CREATOR OF STARCRAFT WE BOW DOWN TO THEE AND WE ALL GLAD TO MEET YOUR INCESSANT NEED FOR MORE MONEY AND POWER. FUCK KESPA AND FUCK BROOD WARS. WE WILL PAY ALL THE CASH. WE WILL PAY ALL THE INTELLECTUAL RIGHTS EVERY TIME WE PLAY YOUR GAME COMPETITIVELY."
I say fuck that. And fuck you if you think we owe Blizzard a cent for something they hardly touched on all these years and have benefitted greatly from. It's the ultimate betrayal, and you have some serious issues of sadomasochism if you are greatly interested in making Blizzard richer even if it means having to sacrifice on your part.
It's a long post but I have to say I entirely agree with its sentiments. Of course those on TL who aren't BW fans don't feel personally affected by the events. But consider this - when Activision-Blizzard is putting out WC4 or SC3 and then shits on the SC2 scene how will you feel after you've invested in it as a player, a tournament organizer, or a fan? And keep in mind it'll be much easier for them to really close down on SC2 because they control every aspect of the game's multiplayer play, until BW.
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On September 01 2010 19:55 Spyridon wrote:
It’s okay for KeSPA to ONLY support BW, by that mentality it should be okay for Blizzard to only support SC2.
Um, two different things. "Kespa...only support BW" doesn't mean actively stopping SC2 from going on. But Activision-Blizzard futzing around with licensing means that they could possibly shut down the current BW scene altogether.
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On September 01 2010 11:54 FishForThought wrote:
Possible outcomes:
1. Kespa sells the 12 proleague team contracts to Gretech to handle then call it quits.
2. Kespa gets Gretech's license and run their own 'proleague' tournaments, which will consequently diminish the 12 team's quality due to proleague no longer the dominate competition.
3. Kespa does not get Gretech's license and disbands the 12 teams.
4. Gretech acquires Kespa.
Some of these outcomes aren't possible at all. Kespa represents the owners of the teams themselves. Gretech can't possibly buy and afford to operate the teams, it's not large or well-funded enough. And I'm highly doubtful that Gretech could quickly find another 11 sponsors to replace the current teams, even if somehow the teams could retain their players, with all the player housing, infrastructure, and etc being provided and owned by the current sponsors.
Gretech acquiring Kespa is also very farfetched since Kespa is simply an "industry organization" representing the interests of a group of similarly positioned companies (the team sponsors). The only value in Kespa is the coordination it provides to its member companies so there's no point in Gretech acquiring it at all, if it could even be done.
And this:
On September 01 2010 10:40 hacpee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 10:39 biskit wrote:
I hope KeSPA dissolves all the teams so the progamers can upgrade to SC2. I wanna see Jaedong and Flash play the new Starcraft.
Too bad that won't happen. So you're hoping Jaedong and Flash get a massive pay cut? How selfish. You want to know the real reason Nada cut the games with TLO short at IEM? He didn't want to lose his paycheck.
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As sad as this is, some of this feels like karma. I was so angry at kespa when they screwed over GomTV Classic because they wanted a monopoly over BW, when Gretech would've helped develop the esports scene. Now Gretech doesn't want to cooperate with Kespa, surprise surprise.
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On September 01 2010 20:37 roronoe wrote:
As sad as this is, some of this feels like karma. I was so angry at kespa when they screwed over GomTV Classic because they wanted a monopoly over BW, when Gretech would've helped develop the esports scene. Now Gretech doesn't want to cooperate with Kespa, surprise surprise.
Karma's a bitch indeed and it would seem Kespa will have to face the consequences of their action towards Gretech for their effort developing BW scene. Which is a shame since it'll be a negative impact on everyone except Gretech and Blizzard.
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I'm dumbfounded.
Let me get this straight.
- The majority of posters don't know what KeSPA is.
- The majority of posters don't know what a non-profit organization is.
Wow. KeSPA has done a number of shady things in the past and clearly it would come down to this when Blizzard empowered Gretech. The only way they're going to stop KeSPA is by trying to force their hand in court. If I were in KeSPA's position I wouldn't stop my daily activities either. The recessions Gretech is asking for is too much. I don't see a judge ruling in favor of all of Gretech's demands at all.
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Selling intellectual property rights to OGN and MBC, when they do not own and have never owned the rights to Starcraft, and even not aknowledging Blizzard has the rights to Starcraft at all during 3 years of negotiations. They boycotted GOM... yeah, that surely shows they care for e-sports, right?
And this is far from a full list of all the shit kespa has done.
If anything kespa is a symbol of all that is currently wrong with progaming in Korea.
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EPT
