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On September 01 2010 17:13 Letmelose wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Wait for what? The entire scene to be go backwards in time and maybe even fizzle out as if the phenemonen never existed?
Whatever bullshit Blizzard/Gretech is pulling for whatever reasons, is making the entire scene unstable. It won't be easy to persuade sponors to keep investing in the scene that is plagued with uncertainty, legal troubles and bad publicity overall. Not to mention the players themselves won't be able to showcast all their skills now they have their own livelihood to worry about.
I can see no good coming out of this, and since when did any of you care about the intellectual rights of a company that hardly is a victim of the idea that their game is the only product that manages to keep an entire industry consisting of numerous broadcasting companies, corporate sponsors, internet sites, alive. The industy was alive because we watched through the good times and the bad. Supported the players. Skipped classes to watch our favourite players live. Spent hours on numerous internet communities discussing the more important issues going on in the scene. It was the people's interest in the scene that allowed the scene to grow. And now Blizzard/Gretech wants to take all that away.
You can justify that all you want. I say it's total fucking bullshit. Blizzard didn't the scene. They shouldn't be able to hold us all at a gun point just because they made the game. It was the players. The teams that paid them. The broadcasters who employed professional observers, map-makers, casters and commentators. The fans who stood by their players and teams, the fans who got the broadcasting companies the necessary raitings. The fans who got the internet sites to stay alive with their non-stop activity within it.
Many of us, in one small way or the other. Made this entire thing happen. E-Sports wouldn't ahve existed without Blizzard? Fuck that. It wouldn't have existed without a lot of things clicking just right. Why the fuck would anybody empathize Blizzard's needs to disregard all the blood, sweat and tears devoted to get E-Sports to the point it is at now, for whatever the fuck it is that they feel we as a community owe to them for making such a great fucking game. I thought the debt was over the moment I paid for the game. But no. They feel I must bow down and suck on their crotch everytime I want to enjoy the by-products of their game. Apparently I can't enjoy shit without having to grovel for their permission and paying them money EVERY FUCKING TIME I WANT TO WATCH IT ON TELEVISION.
Don't you get it? We're the customers. We sustained the scene with our interest, which the corporate sponsors deemed enough in return for the pleasure of watching this amazing thing that is not available anywhere else. Now Blizzard comes barging in and starts to make demands that is way over-board both in terms of control and fincially speaking. They're not just fucking with Kespa here. They are FUCKING WITH YOU. STOP BEING HAPPY THAT YOU'RE BEING VIOLATED ANALLY BY A BUNCH OF MONEY HUNGRY FUCKHEADS.
Blizzard is essentially saying you can't fucking enjoy E-Sports without us getting our pockets full. Want to play our game? Pay us. Want to play our game on television. Pay us. Want to watch our game on television. FUCKING PAY US.
What part the E-Sports scene in Korea being threatened, Blizzard's message that what we do with their products will never be legally viable without their permission, and all the work we as a community have put in, no matter how small or insignificant in the grand scope of things, being PISSED ON by those fuckers. Why are some retards here celebrating the presence of a dictatorship on something that was not perfect, but relatively free from all this bullshit that has nothing to do with the beauty of the industry? Why are these mindless drones essentially mumbling: "OH CREATOR OF STARCRAFT WE BOW DOWN TO THEE AND WE ALL GLAD TO MEET YOUR INCESSANT NEED FOR MORE MONEY AND POWER. FUCK KESPA AND FUCK BROOD WARS. WE WILL PAY ALL THE CASH. WE WILL PAY ALL THE INTELLECTUAL RIGHTS EVERY TIME WE PLAY YOUR GAME COMPETITIVELY."
I say fuck that. And fuck you if you think we owe Blizzard a cent for something they hardly touched on all these years and have benefitted greatly from. It's the ultimate betrayal, and you have some serious issues of sadomasochism if you are greatly interested in making Blizzard richer even if it means having to sacrifice on your part.
This is what I've been trying to say the whole time ever since the first Kespa vs Blizzard problem has popped up. All I can say is that I completely agree with you. It's sad to see that people are still mindlessly supporting blizzard when the axe is hanging over their heads. And to the idiot SC2 players who want BW to die: your day will come too.
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On September 01 2010 16:47 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 00:55 maybenexttime wrote:On September 01 2010 00:49 dyodyo wrote:On September 01 2010 00:37 maybenexttime wrote:On August 31 2010 23:53 Killmour wrote:On August 31 2010 23:51 metaldragon wrote:
At Best Kespa will hurt blizzard in korea some and at worst the disband a profitable proleague for nothing and Sc2 goes on in korea without a beat.
Exactly, Kespa's attitude of our way or we will have a temper tantrum and disband the pro-league is just stupid. GET A CLUE. If Gretech forces KeSPA to shut down Proleague, there's no reason for any progaming teams to operate. Why on earth would they keep sustaining them? This is not charity... ProLeague is THE marketing tool those corporate sponsors as far as esports go. It's ridiculous how Gretech feels threatened by ProLeague because they're (KeSPA) are using a superior spectator game, with superior infrastructure and organization. I dont think that they are being threatened by a "superior spectator game". They are just afraid that KeSPA would again force the teams and its players to boycott a Gretech run league, just like what KeSPA did with the GSL. KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition? KeSPA already has. With that said, I dont see how anyone can be defending KeSPA. If they were really behind ESports, they would not be trying to make sure that BW is the ONLY significant ESport around. Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed.
Is your reading comprehension really that bad?
Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?!
Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense.
"Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed."
EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been?
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However, Gretech, starting with the beginning of the 4th negotiation, has said that "We cannot sign off on the Proleague, since it will compete with the GSL", and KeSPA reacted saying that "If you refuse to sign off on the Proleague, that's like saying we shouldn't be negotiating". Continuing, Gretech, rather than talking about intellectual property fees, has demanded "Reimbursement for the GSL", and KeSPA has rejected the guidelines set by Gretech.
If this is true, Gretech is essentially saying "fuck you, we'll only negotiate if you pay for our starleague lol", which doesn't bode well.
If this kills proleague and broodwar I'm going to be pretty upset.
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That's why I'm not buying any Blizzard game ever again. The last title I bought from them was WC3.
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On September 01 2010 17:39 dogabutila wrote:
Wrong, because blizz has nothing to do with this. Blizz has a contract with Gretech, and gretech can sub licence out to the others. You are thinking about the Blizz//Kespa negotiations that happened ages ago.
If you honestly think that Gretech is the ones deciding everything, like what fees to charge, what schedules to demand, etc, and that Blizzard is quietly sitting across the ocean minding their own business I have a bridge to sell you.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
I can't be convinced of everything until I hear both sides of the story.What we read here is KeSPA's side,until I hear what Gretech has to say I am not convinced that pro-league will be stopped and that BW will come to an end.
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On September 01 2010 17:11 Cowazon wrote:
Since when did SC2 become such a successful esport that we conclude that Kespa "not caring about SC2" means that they "don't care about esports"?
When SC2 "progamers" can earn a stable salary regardless of performance in tournaments, then SC2 can begin to be considered a successful esport. Taking a day or two off work/school to practice for a SC2 tournament (whose entire viewership is limited to other people that play the game) doesn't earn you the right to call yourself a progamer.
SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed.
On September 01 2010 17:40 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 16:47 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 00:55 maybenexttime wrote:On September 01 2010 00:49 dyodyo wrote:On September 01 2010 00:37 maybenexttime wrote:On August 31 2010 23:53 Killmour wrote:On August 31 2010 23:51 metaldragon wrote:
At Best Kespa will hurt blizzard in korea some and at worst the disband a profitable proleague for nothing and Sc2 goes on in korea without a beat.
Exactly, Kespa's attitude of our way or we will have a temper tantrum and disband the pro-league is just stupid. GET A CLUE. If Gretech forces KeSPA to shut down Proleague, there's no reason for any progaming teams to operate. Why on earth would they keep sustaining them? This is not charity... ProLeague is THE marketing tool those corporate sponsors as far as esports go. It's ridiculous how Gretech feels threatened by ProLeague because they're (KeSPA) are using a superior spectator game, with superior infrastructure and organization. I dont think that they are being threatened by a "superior spectator game". They are just afraid that KeSPA would again force the teams and its players to boycott a Gretech run league, just like what KeSPA did with the GSL. KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition? KeSPA already has. With that said, I dont see how anyone can be defending KeSPA. If they were really behind ESports, they would not be trying to make sure that BW is the ONLY significant ESport around. Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed. Is your reading comprehension really that bad? Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?! Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense. "Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed." EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been?
On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA?
Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part...
KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV"
That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed.
It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP.
BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all.
Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless.
And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea.
Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up.
Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys".
The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words.
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On September 01 2010 18:54 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 17:11 Cowazon wrote:
Since when did SC2 become such a successful esport that we conclude that Kespa "not caring about SC2" means that they "don't care about esports"?
When SC2 "progamers" can earn a stable salary regardless of performance in tournaments, then SC2 can begin to be considered a successful esport. Taking a day or two off work/school to practice for a SC2 tournament (whose entire viewership is limited to other people that play the game) doesn't earn you the right to call yourself a progamer. SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed. Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 17:40 maybenexttime wrote:On September 01 2010 16:47 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 00:55 maybenexttime wrote:On September 01 2010 00:49 dyodyo wrote:On September 01 2010 00:37 maybenexttime wrote:On August 31 2010 23:53 Killmour wrote:On August 31 2010 23:51 metaldragon wrote:
At Best Kespa will hurt blizzard in korea some and at worst the disband a profitable proleague for nothing and Sc2 goes on in korea without a beat.
Exactly, Kespa's attitude of our way or we will have a temper tantrum and disband the pro-league is just stupid. GET A CLUE. If Gretech forces KeSPA to shut down Proleague, there's no reason for any progaming teams to operate. Why on earth would they keep sustaining them? This is not charity... ProLeague is THE marketing tool those corporate sponsors as far as esports go. It's ridiculous how Gretech feels threatened by ProLeague because they're (KeSPA) are using a superior spectator game, with superior infrastructure and organization. I dont think that they are being threatened by a "superior spectator game". They are just afraid that KeSPA would again force the teams and its players to boycott a Gretech run league, just like what KeSPA did with the GSL. KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition? KeSPA already has. With that said, I dont see how anyone can be defending KeSPA. If they were really behind ESports, they would not be trying to make sure that BW is the ONLY significant ESport around. Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed. Is your reading comprehension really that bad? Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?! Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense. "Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed." EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been? On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA? Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part... KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV" That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed. It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP. BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all. Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless. And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea. Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up. Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys". The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words.
Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating.
This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to.
They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa.
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It's funny because Kespa releases a statement and people believe it as gospel truth, even though they are 1) breaking an NDA 2) have lied very recently in the past while 3) doing the exact same thing.
And this all that needs to be said.
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On September 01 2010 18:58 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 18:54 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 17:11 Cowazon wrote:
Since when did SC2 become such a successful esport that we conclude that Kespa "not caring about SC2" means that they "don't care about esports"?
When SC2 "progamers" can earn a stable salary regardless of performance in tournaments, then SC2 can begin to be considered a successful esport. Taking a day or two off work/school to practice for a SC2 tournament (whose entire viewership is limited to other people that play the game) doesn't earn you the right to call yourself a progamer. SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed. On September 01 2010 17:40 maybenexttime wrote:On September 01 2010 16:47 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 00:55 maybenexttime wrote:On September 01 2010 00:49 dyodyo wrote:On September 01 2010 00:37 maybenexttime wrote:On August 31 2010 23:53 Killmour wrote:On August 31 2010 23:51 metaldragon wrote:
At Best Kespa will hurt blizzard in korea some and at worst the disband a profitable proleague for nothing and Sc2 goes on in korea without a beat.
Exactly, Kespa's attitude of our way or we will have a temper tantrum and disband the pro-league is just stupid. GET A CLUE. If Gretech forces KeSPA to shut down Proleague, there's no reason for any progaming teams to operate. Why on earth would they keep sustaining them? This is not charity... ProLeague is THE marketing tool those corporate sponsors as far as esports go. It's ridiculous how Gretech feels threatened by ProLeague because they're (KeSPA) are using a superior spectator game, with superior infrastructure and organization. I dont think that they are being threatened by a "superior spectator game". They are just afraid that KeSPA would again force the teams and its players to boycott a Gretech run league, just like what KeSPA did with the GSL. KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition? KeSPA already has. With that said, I dont see how anyone can be defending KeSPA. If they were really behind ESports, they would not be trying to make sure that BW is the ONLY significant ESport around. Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed. Is your reading comprehension really that bad? Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?! Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense. "Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed." EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been? On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA? Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part... KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV" That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed. It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP. BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all. Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless. And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea. Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up. Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys". The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words. Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating. This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to. They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa.
KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP.
KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want.
If they are not willing to make an acceptable agreement, that makes KeSPA the antagonist. Not Gretech or Blizzard.
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On September 01 2010 19:04 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 18:58 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 18:54 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 17:11 Cowazon wrote:
Since when did SC2 become such a successful esport that we conclude that Kespa "not caring about SC2" means that they "don't care about esports"?
When SC2 "progamers" can earn a stable salary regardless of performance in tournaments, then SC2 can begin to be considered a successful esport. Taking a day or two off work/school to practice for a SC2 tournament (whose entire viewership is limited to other people that play the game) doesn't earn you the right to call yourself a progamer. SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed. On September 01 2010 17:40 maybenexttime wrote:On September 01 2010 16:47 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 00:55 maybenexttime wrote:On September 01 2010 00:49 dyodyo wrote:On September 01 2010 00:37 maybenexttime wrote:On August 31 2010 23:53 Killmour wrote:On August 31 2010 23:51 metaldragon wrote:
At Best Kespa will hurt blizzard in korea some and at worst the disband a profitable proleague for nothing and Sc2 goes on in korea without a beat.
Exactly, Kespa's attitude of our way or we will have a temper tantrum and disband the pro-league is just stupid. GET A CLUE. If Gretech forces KeSPA to shut down Proleague, there's no reason for any progaming teams to operate. Why on earth would they keep sustaining them? This is not charity... ProLeague is THE marketing tool those corporate sponsors as far as esports go. It's ridiculous how Gretech feels threatened by ProLeague because they're (KeSPA) are using a superior spectator game, with superior infrastructure and organization. I dont think that they are being threatened by a "superior spectator game". They are just afraid that KeSPA would again force the teams and its players to boycott a Gretech run league, just like what KeSPA did with the GSL. KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition? KeSPA already has. With that said, I dont see how anyone can be defending KeSPA. If they were really behind ESports, they would not be trying to make sure that BW is the ONLY significant ESport around. Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed. Is your reading comprehension really that bad? Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?! Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense. "Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed." EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been? On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA? Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part... KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV" That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed. It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP. BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all. Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless. And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea. Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up. Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys". The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words. Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating. This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to. They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa. KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP. KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want.
Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games?
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On September 01 2010 19:07 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 19:04 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 18:58 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 18:54 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 17:11 Cowazon wrote:
Since when did SC2 become such a successful esport that we conclude that Kespa "not caring about SC2" means that they "don't care about esports"?
When SC2 "progamers" can earn a stable salary regardless of performance in tournaments, then SC2 can begin to be considered a successful esport. Taking a day or two off work/school to practice for a SC2 tournament (whose entire viewership is limited to other people that play the game) doesn't earn you the right to call yourself a progamer. SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed. On September 01 2010 17:40 maybenexttime wrote:On September 01 2010 16:47 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 00:55 maybenexttime wrote:On September 01 2010 00:49 dyodyo wrote:On September 01 2010 00:37 maybenexttime wrote:On August 31 2010 23:53 Killmour wrote:
[quote]
Exactly, Kespa's attitude of our way or we will have a temper tantrum and disband the pro-league is just stupid.
GET A CLUE. If Gretech forces KeSPA to shut down Proleague, there's no reason for any progaming teams to operate. Why on earth would they keep sustaining them? This is not charity... ProLeague is THE marketing tool those corporate sponsors as far as esports go. It's ridiculous how Gretech feels threatened by ProLeague because they're (KeSPA) are using a superior spectator game, with superior infrastructure and organization. I dont think that they are being threatened by a "superior spectator game". They are just afraid that KeSPA would again force the teams and its players to boycott a Gretech run league, just like what KeSPA did with the GSL. KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition? KeSPA already has. With that said, I dont see how anyone can be defending KeSPA. If they were really behind ESports, they would not be trying to make sure that BW is the ONLY significant ESport around. Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed. Is your reading comprehension really that bad? Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?! Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense. "Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed." EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been? On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA? Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part... KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV" That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed. It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP. BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all. Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless. And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea. Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up. Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys". The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words. Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating. This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to. They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa. KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP. KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want. Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games?
Well, it would be more like the world cup being the same weekend as the super bowl, which would not happen.
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On September 01 2010 19:08 Nu11 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 19:07 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:04 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 18:58 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 18:54 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 17:11 Cowazon wrote:
Since when did SC2 become such a successful esport that we conclude that Kespa "not caring about SC2" means that they "don't care about esports"?
When SC2 "progamers" can earn a stable salary regardless of performance in tournaments, then SC2 can begin to be considered a successful esport. Taking a day or two off work/school to practice for a SC2 tournament (whose entire viewership is limited to other people that play the game) doesn't earn you the right to call yourself a progamer. SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed. On September 01 2010 17:40 maybenexttime wrote:On September 01 2010 16:47 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 00:55 maybenexttime wrote:On September 01 2010 00:49 dyodyo wrote:On September 01 2010 00:37 maybenexttime wrote:
[quote]
GET A CLUE.
If Gretech forces KeSPA to shut down Proleague, there's no reason for any progaming teams to operate. Why on earth would they keep sustaining them? This is not charity... ProLeague is THE marketing tool those corporate sponsors as far as esports go.
It's ridiculous how Gretech feels threatened by ProLeague because they're (KeSPA) are using a superior spectator game, with superior infrastructure and organization. I dont think that they are being threatened by a "superior spectator game". They are just afraid that KeSPA would again force the teams and its players to boycott a Gretech run league, just like what KeSPA did with the GSL. KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition? KeSPA already has. With that said, I dont see how anyone can be defending KeSPA. If they were really behind ESports, they would not be trying to make sure that BW is the ONLY significant ESport around. Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed. Is your reading comprehension really that bad? Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?! Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense. "Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed." EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been? On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA? Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part... KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV" That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed. It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP. BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all. Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless. And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea. Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up. Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys". The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words. Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating. This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to. They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa. KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP. KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want. Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games? Well, it would be more like the world cup being the same weekend as the super bowl, which would not happen.
In korea it's more like the world cup vs peewee soccer.
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On September 01 2010 19:07 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 19:04 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 18:58 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 18:54 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 17:11 Cowazon wrote:
Since when did SC2 become such a successful esport that we conclude that Kespa "not caring about SC2" means that they "don't care about esports"?
When SC2 "progamers" can earn a stable salary regardless of performance in tournaments, then SC2 can begin to be considered a successful esport. Taking a day or two off work/school to practice for a SC2 tournament (whose entire viewership is limited to other people that play the game) doesn't earn you the right to call yourself a progamer. SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed. On September 01 2010 17:40 maybenexttime wrote:On September 01 2010 16:47 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 00:55 maybenexttime wrote:On September 01 2010 00:49 dyodyo wrote:On September 01 2010 00:37 maybenexttime wrote:On August 31 2010 23:53 Killmour wrote:
[quote]
Exactly, Kespa's attitude of our way or we will have a temper tantrum and disband the pro-league is just stupid.
GET A CLUE. If Gretech forces KeSPA to shut down Proleague, there's no reason for any progaming teams to operate. Why on earth would they keep sustaining them? This is not charity... ProLeague is THE marketing tool those corporate sponsors as far as esports go. It's ridiculous how Gretech feels threatened by ProLeague because they're (KeSPA) are using a superior spectator game, with superior infrastructure and organization. I dont think that they are being threatened by a "superior spectator game". They are just afraid that KeSPA would again force the teams and its players to boycott a Gretech run league, just like what KeSPA did with the GSL. KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition? KeSPA already has. With that said, I dont see how anyone can be defending KeSPA. If they were really behind ESports, they would not be trying to make sure that BW is the ONLY significant ESport around. Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed. Is your reading comprehension really that bad? Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?! Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense. "Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed." EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been? On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA? Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part... KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV" That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed. It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP. BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all. Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless. And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea. Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up. Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys". The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words. Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating. This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to. They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa. KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP. KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want. Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games?
Would you enjoy it if you made a movie, and then a company who has been using the IP from that movie for years refused to support the movies sequel?
Things like that are exactly why IP laws exist.
BTW, if you want to use your example, it's a bit off. In this case Blizzard would be FIFA. They are the property owner. It's their say what goes on with the games.
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They can sue gretech for monopolizing this.
However, Gretech, starting with the beginning of the 4th negotiation, has said that "We cannot sign off on the Proleague, since it will compete with the GSL"
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On September 01 2010 18:54 Spyridon wrote:
SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed.
Hah, if Kespa had that much power as you claim, in that SC2 will never have a chance if Kespa doesn't support it, Kespa surely would have a ton more bargaining power and Gretech/Blizzard wouldn't act like this.
If all the rumors and leaks are actually the true positions of each party though, I'd be surprised that CJ isn't stepping in to make sure OGN can continue regular operations. OGN will definitely not be able to continue business as usual if Proleague is gone, and OSL might even be greatly diminished. To CJ as a whole the entire esports scene might not be a big deal to their entire business but surely the BW scene with its large (but perhaps declining) audience is still more valuable than a new scene without an established audience yet.
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On September 01 2010 19:11 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 19:07 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:04 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 18:58 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 18:54 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 17:11 Cowazon wrote:
Since when did SC2 become such a successful esport that we conclude that Kespa "not caring about SC2" means that they "don't care about esports"?
When SC2 "progamers" can earn a stable salary regardless of performance in tournaments, then SC2 can begin to be considered a successful esport. Taking a day or two off work/school to practice for a SC2 tournament (whose entire viewership is limited to other people that play the game) doesn't earn you the right to call yourself a progamer. SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed. On September 01 2010 17:40 maybenexttime wrote:On September 01 2010 16:47 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 00:55 maybenexttime wrote:On September 01 2010 00:49 dyodyo wrote:On September 01 2010 00:37 maybenexttime wrote:
[quote]
GET A CLUE.
If Gretech forces KeSPA to shut down Proleague, there's no reason for any progaming teams to operate. Why on earth would they keep sustaining them? This is not charity... ProLeague is THE marketing tool those corporate sponsors as far as esports go.
It's ridiculous how Gretech feels threatened by ProLeague because they're (KeSPA) are using a superior spectator game, with superior infrastructure and organization. I dont think that they are being threatened by a "superior spectator game". They are just afraid that KeSPA would again force the teams and its players to boycott a Gretech run league, just like what KeSPA did with the GSL. KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition? KeSPA already has. With that said, I dont see how anyone can be defending KeSPA. If they were really behind ESports, they would not be trying to make sure that BW is the ONLY significant ESport around. Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed. Is your reading comprehension really that bad? Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?! Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense. "Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed." EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been? On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA? Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part... KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV" That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed. It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP. BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all. Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless. And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea. Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up. Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys". The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words. Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating. This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to. They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa. KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP. KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want. Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games? Would you enjoy it if you made a movie, and then a company who has been using the IP from that movie for years refused to support the movies sequel? Things like that are exactly why IP laws exist. BTW, if you want to use your example, it's a bit off. In this case Blizzard would be FIFA. They are the property owner. It's their say what goes on with the games.
Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels.
IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports.
As long as blizzard only cares about money it will never be good to put them in charge of esports even for their own games, when they actually care about esports, then we can talk.
The only way it would be worth it to let blizz control all the esports for their corporate greed, would be if dimaga action figures came into existence because of it.
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On September 01 2010 19:21 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 19:11 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 19:07 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 19:04 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 18:58 robertdinh wrote:On September 01 2010 18:54 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 17:11 Cowazon wrote:
Since when did SC2 become such a successful esport that we conclude that Kespa "not caring about SC2" means that they "don't care about esports"?
When SC2 "progamers" can earn a stable salary regardless of performance in tournaments, then SC2 can begin to be considered a successful esport. Taking a day or two off work/school to practice for a SC2 tournament (whose entire viewership is limited to other people that play the game) doesn't earn you the right to call yourself a progamer. SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed. On September 01 2010 17:40 maybenexttime wrote:On September 01 2010 16:47 Spyridon wrote:On September 01 2010 00:55 maybenexttime wrote:On September 01 2010 00:49 dyodyo wrote:
[quote]
I dont think that they are being threatened by a "superior spectator game". They are just afraid that KeSPA would again force the teams and its players to boycott a Gretech run league, just like what KeSPA did with the GSL. KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition? KeSPA already has. With that said, I dont see how anyone can be defending KeSPA. If they were really behind ESports, they would not be trying to make sure that BW is the ONLY significant ESport around. Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed. Is your reading comprehension really that bad? Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?! Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense. "Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed." EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been? On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA? Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part... KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV" That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed. It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP. BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all. Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless. And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea. Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up. Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys". The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words. Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating. This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to. They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa. KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP. KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want. Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games? Would you enjoy it if you made a movie, and then a company who has been using the IP from that movie for years refused to support the movies sequel? Things like that are exactly why IP laws exist. BTW, if you want to use your example, it's a bit off. In this case Blizzard would be FIFA. They are the property owner. It's their say what goes on with the games. Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels. IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports.
Blizzard has shown no intent to kill off BW. They are negotiating with them and you have not seen them mention ANYWHERE that "KeSPA ONLY has to support SC2, and not BW".
That hasnt happened.
The only company that has shown a CLEAR intent to support ONLY ONE GAME... is KeSPA. Not Blizzard or Gretech. Hell, it would be a good business decision for Blizzard if BOTH games thrived.
I know theres so much hate going on for Blizzard on the internet... but open your eyes. If Blizzard only cared about money, they would be banking on BOTH games, and not just one.
The only company named here that gets anything out of only one game thriving, is KeSPA.
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Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels.
IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports.
Well, a similar argument could be made against Kespa. Blizzard provided the game that Kespa used to establish an esport-scene in Korea, now Blizzard is asking Kespa to let Sc2 into the scene to compete with Sc1 on equal footing and Kespa is saying ''Fuck off'' and doing things that hinder the development of Sc2 as an esports-game.
Why are you only going after Blizzard/Gretech for trying to push Sc1 out of the way but not after Kespa for trying to push Sc2 out of the way?
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