KeSPA, while explaining the background behind why they started considering force starting the 2010~2011 Proleague, claimed that Gretech has refused to sign off on Proleague.
We know that KeSPA has met with Gretech 4 times, and said that it was impossible to reimburse Gretech regarding Proleague, and the negotiations ended there.
However, there are some new information that came into light. KeSPA has revealed that they would like to pay for intellectual property rights, and that Gretech has refused this, and claimed that Gretech has refused to sign off on the Proleague because of GSL.
One person who has participated in the negotiations, has said that "KeSPA, from the very beginning, has shown willingness to reimburse intellectual property fees for the Proleague", adding that "While they do have an income from broadcasting rights of the Proleague, but because this is all used to operate the Proleague, they might as well not have any income", and said that they have shown all related budget accounts. Continuing, they have asked Gretech "Even though Proleague does not have any real profits, we will pay intellectual property fees, so how much does Gretech want?"
However, Gretech, starting with the beginning of the 4th negotiation, has said that "We cannot sign off on the Proleague, since it will compete with the GSL", and KeSPA reacted saying that "If you refuse to sign off on the Proleague, that's like saying we shouldn't be negotiating". Continuing, Gretech, rather than talking about intellectual property fees, has demanded "Reimbursement for the GSL", and KeSPA has rejected the guidelines set by Gretech.
The person added that "Since this is an NDA, we cannot reveal everything about the negotiations, but there are a lot of people are using wrong information and is reading the situation wrong", and said that "I really want to reveal everything about the negotiations and be judged on who is making the wrong judgments here"
As we know, KeSPA and Gretech first entered negotiations in June 23rd, and officially entered into an NDA, and started the main part of the negotiations early August. It's been confirmed that they have had 4 meetings since then -- however, the 4 meetings did not go anywhere, as they ended simply by confirming the positions of each side.
KeSPA's position is that "Because we don't make any profit from the Proleague, and the 11 progame teams all pay quite a considerable amount of money for team operations and the board of directors free, it's quite difficult to pay Gretech reimbursement in any sort of currency."
Gretech has said "If KeSPA rejects negotiations related to monetary payments, then from an industry operation viewpoint, let us know how you will reimburse Gretech", and "Since there may be a lot of noise if we reveal the amount of monetary payment we want and may look like we're forcing the amount, let us know if you have a monetary payment in mind".
The negotiations also included things related to the GSL. Regarding the GSL, Gretech has said "If Proleague goes on without any monetary reimbursement, then from our position, we can end up in a position where we're not guaranteed any profits as GSL can be damaged because of the Proleague", adding that "Because KeSPA has boycotted the GomTV Classic in the past, the GSL can be damaged again due to the Proleague schedule". Responding to this, KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV. If Gretech is like this, then there isn't any more point of negotiations".
Because of this, there are opinions within KeSPA to force the operation of the 10~11 Proleague season. Upon operating the 10~11 Proleague season, if Gretech starts an issue related to IP Rights, then they will deal with after the fact, and in the worst case scenario of the season being forcibly stopped, that they would be willing to disband all the progame teams.
Regarding this, someone related to Gretech has remarked "If we can settle this and reach an agreement, that would be the best conclusion, but if the Proleague starts without negotiations, then they will not be able to avoid legal consequences"
Meanwhile, the KOCCA has remarked that they will do their best to make the negotiations happen.
Its like there at the poker table with a pair of 2's going all in while they KNOW blizzard is sitting on a Full house.
With the Gsl prize money being so high im sure there are TONS of high level pro gamers that have been dying to play the new game and have a shot at the $$.
At Best Kespa will hurt blizzard in korea some and at worst the disband a profitable proleague for nothing and Sc2 goes on in korea without a beat.
Before the GSL Kespa had a much stronger position.....
Gretech... you think GSL would survive if you forcibly stop the proleague and force the disbanding of the proleague teams? imagine the outrage..
and for Kespa... simply fuck off... it just seems they only care about the money they make with SCBW and want to make sure, that they don't have any competition from GSL / SC2...
On August 31 2010 23:53 Nesto wrote: what the hell...
Gretech... you think GSL would survive if you forcibly stop the proleague and force the disbanding of the proleague teams? imagine the outrage..
and for Kespa... simply fuck off... it just seems they only care about the money they make with SCBW and want to make sure, that they don't have any competition from GSL / SC2...
kespa is nonprofit. Kespa is probably saying "fuck you" to sc2 cause they have emotional issues against Blizzard.
"Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV. If Gretech is like this, then there isn't any more point of negotiations".
WTF is Gretech doing!??!?! If kespa is paying then there is no NEED TO PROMOTE SC2 .. wtf fucking cunts
On August 31 2010 23:49 Killmour wrote: I love how Blizzard tries to say it cares about E-sports, what a colossal joke, even a total idiot can see through their bullshit.
Sc2 and blizz are trying to forcibly take SCBW out- screw them. If anyone tries to defend blizz now... after promise after promise of e-sport proliferation.... i will never buy another one of their products again. They are acting like a spoiled child, and it's disgusting.
it's confusing to tell as to who's in the wrong here, until a contradiction is cleared up. gretech states that they are getting no monetary compensation for the operation of proleague, but kespa says they've agreed to pay a usage fee for the IP. so who's telling the truth?
On September 01 2010 00:08 Antoine wrote: it's confusing to tell as to who's in the wrong here, until a contradiction is cleared up. gretech states that they are getting no monetary compensation for the operation of proleague, but kespa says they've agreed to pay a usage fee for the IP. so who's telling the truth?
i think the would agree to pay as long as they wont be needing to promot sc2 or Gom
I dont understand people who say that Kespa has all to lose, if Kespa disband the pro teams it is going to be a rage against Blizzard and his new product SC2, and dont be so naive thinking that Blizz is going to take care of that and looking for a new set of sponsors in order to keep BW alive. Btw if SC2 is so great and magnificent game why is Gretech so worry about GSL competing vs proleague?, maybe because they know they dont stand a chance.
On August 31 2010 23:49 Killmour wrote: I love how Blizzard tries to say it cares about E-sports, what a colossal joke, even a total idiot can see through their bullshit.
Fixed with my bias.
Money makes the world go round, E-sports will never become big unless there is money involved, don't be so naive.
I think if the agreement does not include promoting GOMtv then the conditions wouldn't be bad.I mean why would anyone want to promote their competitor(yes I said competitior since OGN and MBC have more viewership than GOM could ever have).
On August 31 2010 23:53 Nesto wrote: what the hell...
Gretech... you think GSL would survive if you forcibly stop the proleague and force the disbanding of the proleague teams? imagine the outrage..
and for Kespa... simply fuck off... it just seems they only care about the money they make with SCBW and want to make sure, that they don't have any competition from GSL / SC2...
kespa is nonprofit. Kespa is probably saying "fuck you" to sc2 cause they have emotional issues against Blizzard.
Right
Read again these words
KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV. If Gretech is like this, then there isn't any more point of negotiations".
So, KesPa declare they are a non-profit organization (lies), and they are committed into esports development blah blah blah, so, they deny esports develop to a new game. Clearly they are getting into contradiction after that declaration
Bastards, they only work when they are in control of the situation and the money. When they arent, like in this point, of course they deny whats their mission as organization
On August 31 2010 23:49 Killmour wrote: I love how Blizzard tries to say it cares about E-sports, what a colossal joke, even a total idiot can see through their bullshit.
Fixed with my bias.
Money makes the world go round, E-sports will never become big unless there is money involved, don't be so naive.
BW already has money involved. Just not for Blizzard. E-sports will never become big unless it has a popular fanbase and is accepted as a cultural norm. Aside from Korea, there's none of that happening anytime soon.
KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV. If Gretech is like this, then there isn't any more point of negotiations".
So, KesPa declare they are a non-profit organization (lies), and they are committed into esports development blah blah blah, so, they deny esports develop to a new game. Clearly they are getting into contradiction after that declaration
Bastards, they only work when they are in control of the situation and the money. When they arent, like in this point, of course they deny whats their mission as organization
Sorry, from where in the hell you conclude that Kespa is denying the development of a new game in e-sports?, Gretech is in charge of SC2 "e-sports" in Korea, and Kespa is not taking hostages in GOMTV studios or something like that, and as a bussines man how could you agree with paying IP rights for a bussines-game-model that Blizz didnt care until 2007 and besides promoting a direct rival game??, tell me if you are a distribuitor of Coke (You pay rights) you are going to help the marketing campaign of Pepsi?, seriously...
At Best Kespa will hurt blizzard in korea some and at worst the disband a profitable proleague for nothing and Sc2 goes on in korea without a beat.
Exactly, Kespa's attitude of our way or we will have a temper tantrum and disband the pro-league is just stupid.
GET A CLUE.
If Gretech forces KeSPA to shut down Proleague, there's no reason for any progaming teams to operate. Why on earth would they keep sustaining them? This is not charity... ProLeague is THE marketing tool those corporate sponsors as far as esports go.
It's ridiculous how Gretech feels threatened by ProLeague because they're (KeSPA) are using a superior spectator game, with superior infrastructure and organization.
Brinksmanship, at least publicly. I wonder what's going on in the part of the CJ management office that monitors its subsidiaries. It sure would be awkward if the CJ and OGN (hite) teams had no more reason to exist if legal action was able to shut down Proleague. And it'd definitely diminish the OSL if Proleague was gone as well, or even if MSL was gone.
And it would also be awkward if no contract was signed and Gretech didn't take legal action to assert its rights. The only way for all parties (connected with CJ) to continue regular operations (and perhaps save face?!?) would be for a contract to be signed.
At Best Kespa will hurt blizzard in korea some and at worst the disband a profitable proleague for nothing and Sc2 goes on in korea without a beat.
Exactly, Kespa's attitude of our way or we will have a temper tantrum and disband the pro-league is just stupid.
GET A CLUE.
If Gretech forces KeSPA to shut down Proleague, there's no reason for any progaming teams to operate. Why on earth would they keep sustaining them? This is not charity... ProLeague is THE marketing tool those corporate sponsors as far as esports go.
It's ridiculous how Gretech feels threatened by ProLeague because they're (KeSPA) are using a superior spectator game, with superior infrastructure and organization.
I dont think that they are being threatened by a "superior spectator game". They are just afraid that KeSPA would again force the teams and its players to boycott a Gretech run league, just like what KeSPA did with the GSL.
The money in sc2 only goes to top tournament placers, the money in BW goes to every single person with a contract with a proleague team. Sure, tourney winners get some nice bonus's, but even players like Hyuk get paid.
Put yourself in the shoes of a top level pro-gamer like flash. As someone whose making a ton of money in SCBW currently, why would you switch to a game where you will only be able to make as much money if you are consistently winning tournaments.
Now put yourself in the shoes of a decent pro-gamer, like Violet. You're making a steady income playing SCBW, and while your mechanics are likely far better than the average sc2 player, the odds of you being able to become one of the best players in the world is slim. Again, why would you switch from steady, predictable income to a slim chance at making a lot more.
There's a reason why the only Korean pro's switching are either old or bad, because for those who still play BW well and still have contracts to do so BW is a safer source of income. Without this bullshit interference by Blizzard, sc2 would only have taken over if it became more popular for spectators, which it clearly isn't. Bizz is trying to kill proleauge because it's the backbone of the competitive BW scene. The salaries from PL are what keep players playing BW even when they aren't winning tournaments, and are what ensures there's a large enough pool of good players that the game can develop and grow.
At Best Kespa will hurt blizzard in korea some and at worst the disband a profitable proleague for nothing and Sc2 goes on in korea without a beat.
Exactly, Kespa's attitude of our way or we will have a temper tantrum and disband the pro-league is just stupid.
GET A CLUE.
If Gretech forces KeSPA to shut down Proleague, there's no reason for any progaming teams to operate. Why on earth would they keep sustaining them? This is not charity... ProLeague is THE marketing tool those corporate sponsors as far as esports go.
It's ridiculous how Gretech feels threatened by ProLeague because they're (KeSPA) are using a superior spectator game, with superior infrastructure and organization.
I dont think that they are being threatened by a "superior spectator game". They are just afraid that KeSPA would again force the teams and its players to boycott a Gretech run league, just like what KeSPA did with the GSL.
KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition?
It's explicitly said in the OP that Gretech's worried that ProLeague may damage GSL. Read before you post.
seriously, is money for Blizzard's board of directors all that they can see? Cant they see a future of a gold mine instead of an ingot that they are trying to earn now?
This is really getting more absurd..
in fact, i dont see why SC:BW will affect SC2 that much, and especially so that players will more likely to move from SC:BW to SC2, rather than the opposite..
They should just say fuck your blizz and start proleague and if they shit storm and the entire e-sport scene in south korea dies blizzard/gretech will look really really nasty in south korea possibly causing the koreans to boycott gsl among other various forms of shit storming.
On August 31 2010 23:53 Nesto wrote: what the hell...
Gretech... you think GSL would survive if you forcibly stop the proleague and force the disbanding of the proleague teams? imagine the outrage..
and for Kespa... simply fuck off... it just seems they only care about the money they make with SCBW and want to make sure, that they don't have any competition from GSL / SC2...
kespa is nonprofit. Kespa is probably saying "fuck you" to sc2 cause they have emotional issues against Blizzard.
People are still forgetting the last 'intellectual rights negociations' kespa got involved in. Remember when they demanded MBCGame and OnGameNet had to pay them money to broadcast proleague?
They're a bunch of fucking hypocrits denying any form of intellectual rights payment.
You could argue that Kespa is non-profit, that they dont earn anything off organizing proleague, and that if anyone should pay for proleague rights it's MBCGame and OGN, but Kespa has used its position as official proleague organizer to demand intellectual rights payments from MBCGame and OGN earlier, so they should step up to the plate now too.
KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition?
It's explicitly said in the OP that Gretech's worried that ProLeague may damage GSL. Read before you post.
And...the reason why no Kespa players are participating is because Kespa has banned any currently licensed progamers from playing SC2. People like Artosis, Idra, etc have discussed this.
I can't believe the big corporate sponsors behind the pro-teams would allow this to happen, though. After all, aren't THEY supposedly the people pulling the strings behind Kespa anyway? I can't believe they don't they see the potential for profit in both BW AND SC2...
At minimum it is not completely trainwreck in that OSL, to my understanding, will be intact, but yeah- Blood War scene will never be same again without MSL and PL. I just really wish they would come to reasonable agreement about this, but considering the both organizations under issue I really don't see it happening.
KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition?
It's explicitly said in the OP that Gretech's worried that ProLeague may damage GSL. Read before you post.
And...the reason why no Kespa players are participating is because Kespa has banned any currently licensed progamers from playing SC2. People like Artosis, Idra, etc have discussed this.
I can't believe the big corporate sponsors behind the pro-teams would allow this to happen, though. After all, aren't THEY supposedly the people pulling the strings behind Kespa anyway? I can't believe they don't they see the potential for profit in both BW AND SC2...
They are paying millions of dollars to sustain those team. They have every right to forbid their players from participating in SC2 competitions (especially considering the whole situation with Blizzard/Gretech). What stops those progamers who do want to play in SC2 tournaments from finding another job and playing in GSL or such?
KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition?
It's explicitly said in the OP that Gretech's worried that ProLeague may damage GSL. Read before you post.
And...the reason why no Kespa players are participating is because Kespa has banned any currently licensed progamers from playing SC2. People like Artosis, Idra, etc have discussed this.
I can't believe the big corporate sponsors behind the pro-teams would allow this to happen, though. After all, aren't THEY supposedly the people pulling the strings behind Kespa anyway? I can't believe they don't they see the potential for profit in both BW AND SC2...
Why would Brood War teams want people playing SC2? They are free to create seperate teams if they want, but why would you have people playing a different game in their BW teams.. players that cannot contribute to the team at all in practice or BW leagues.
Feels like Kespa is trying to negotiate from an indefensible position. Gretech now owns SC, they can't continue trying to operate their teams/leagues to opposing ends than Gretech's, it's just going to end poorly for them. For instance keeping SC1 players from playing SC2. Gom wants to promote SC2 and Kespa is essentially working against that.
They fucked over Gom in the past, it's funny watching them try to play the victim in this scenario. They need to start cooperating with the intent to broadcast and promote both games equally or it's going to end very poorly for them, and us as fans of BW
Just leave BW alone. You have your shiny SC2 which you try to force on everyone. I for one don't give a slightest shit about GSL. Even if there was no proleague it wouldn't change. Stop fucking forcing SC2 on everyone. If it grows into e-sport it will happen naturally and not by Blizzard and Gretech shoving it into people throats...
I really hope they will close the negotiations and proleague will continue.
KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition?
It's explicitly said in the OP that Gretech's worried that ProLeague may damage GSL. Read before you post.
And...the reason why no Kespa players are participating is because Kespa has banned any currently licensed progamers from playing SC2. People like Artosis, Idra, etc have discussed this.
I can't believe the big corporate sponsors behind the pro-teams would allow this to happen, though. After all, aren't THEY supposedly the people pulling the strings behind Kespa anyway? I can't believe they don't they see the potential for profit in both BW AND SC2...
You really think that those huge corporate sponsors with their marketing gurus know nothing about future profits?, let me laugh, right now you need SC2 being succesful in spectator terms, and fyi even people who plays the game say that is fucking boring to watch, how can you know it is going to be apealling to the casual, massive audience? it is very uncertain. BW is a tested product that right now bring real profits (marketing) to the sponsors.
looks like gretech is just trying to kill SC1 to make room for their SC2 bandwagon. I can't blame them for wanting to kick Kespa's face in over this though, seeing as Kespa essentially cost them millions when they boycotted the gomtv starleagues. Now that the ball's in the other court kespa is running scared and threatening to disband proteams, which nobody wants (I hope)
I really hope somebody comes to their senses and we can have SC1 and SC2 both broadcast at the same time...
Seriosly if they kill of BW proleague I will NEVER ever buy SC2 or any Blizzard product even if SC2 somehow becomes even better than BW I will never forigve that act of greedness.
Just when i was thinking of buying SC2 in the near future this happens well thanks Blizzard for saving me 60$ and possibly 180$ .
On September 01 2010 01:58 SkelA wrote: Fuck you Gretech !!! *cough* Blizzard *cough*
Seriosly if they kill of BW proleague I will NEVER ever buy SC2 or any Blizzard product even if SC2 somehow becomes even better than BW I will never forigve that act of greedness.
Just when i was thinking of buying SC2 in the near future this happens well thanks Blizzard for saving me 60$ and possibly 180$ .
Pointless threat really. Honestly this is just drama, the game is Blizzard's intellectual property and if Gretech is responsible for it then proleague will be shut down since they are illegally broadcasting it. This is still really fucked up. Just pay some money, how can proleague be operating without profits. it makes no sense to me.
I swear, If proleague gets canceled and the progame teams get disbanded because of Gretch, I will boycott SC2. I mean I don't like KeSPA that much to begin with, but come on! Even they deserve a little breathing room...
On September 01 2010 02:06 gillon wrote: And then the thread was derailed into a SC2 vs BW dickcomparing thread. Goddamnit, this is getting so old. Keep it relevant?
took the words right out of my mouth
for all i care KESPA, Blizzard, Gretech and everyone else involved can go fuck themself until they find a solution
I don't think Gretech is determined to shut down any existing leagues or even the whole BW pro scene. Actually I find it pretty reasonable that they want to place SC2 ads/promotion at the very place where the people interested in SCBW/competitive RTS/eSport look at - the gaming channels.
The whole situation is way too complicated by now. Kespa could have talked to Blizzard in some way in the first place, Blizzard could have supported Kespa more before SC2 was on the radar, Kespa could have recognized Blizzards rights during the negotiations, Blizzard could have left out SC2 promotions in the broadcasting contracts.. blabla etc., a lot of stubbornness on both sides if you ask me.
On August 31 2010 23:49 Killmour wrote: I love how Blizzard tries to say it cares about E-sports, what a colossal joke, even a total idiot can see through their bullshit.
Fixed with my bias.
Well your bias is the truth.
Blizzard says "we care about esport" because they believe it soothes us and that we will throw more money at them.
What Blizzard could do is actually care about esport and count the money when ten million Koreans buy the game. But they don't and they need to be economically punished for it. They are taking a big shit on their fans. I hate them so fucking much =(
On September 01 2010 02:19 Gigaudas wrote: What Blizzard could do is actually care about esport and count the money when ten million Koreans buy the game. But they don't and they need to be economically punished for it. They are taking a big shit on their fans. I hate them so fucking much =(
oh, Blizzard doesn't care about BW. Really? What can they do when they're just going to get boycotted.
Great logic there.
And now they're trying SC2. Kespa, what the heck happened to 'for the fans' reaction. I don't see Blizzard/Gretech in any wrong. Kespa had too many chances.
Isn't it like... Gretech is trying to have Proleague and GSL together. By just changing Kespa's Schedule, wouldn't that fix that? But Kespa won't conform? Seems to me like a temper tantrum.
From what they say we will have proleauge during this negotiation period but if worse comes to worst then they would have to end it before the season ends.
Gretech doesnt try to kill BW.They can just not give a fuck about negotiation, but they choose to sit down and talk. KeSPA is fighting an already-lost battle when their weapon becomes enemy's .OGN is done, MBC is done (seems to be), only KeSPA is bitching with their so much hate for SC2. It's Kespa who started the war by boycotting Classic, not to mention they started the pay-for-IP-right thingy with OGN/MBC as well iirc. What goes around comes back exactly around lol.
To me it seems like Gretech is comfortable with professional BW and SC2 coexisting, while Kespa is not. It boils down to that. If Kespa cared about e-sports in Korea they would make the concessions necessary to make this happen, because it seems to me like it's a legal inevitability that changes have to be made on their end.
They have a choice of actually practicing what they preach and supporting esports, or disbanding. So of course they make threats of disbanding instead?
I am saddened, as much as I dislike Kespa's handling of certain things. I love the proleague and I want it to stay with BW, but I'm really looking forward to the GSL. I hope they can come to an agreement with kespa promoting SC2 and the GSL without any monetary payment to Gretech, and also keeping the proleague, and starleagues in different time schedules so the viewer can watch everything.
On August 31 2010 23:53 Nesto wrote: what the hell...
Gretech... you think GSL would survive if you forcibly stop the proleague and force the disbanding of the proleague teams? imagine the outrage..
and for Kespa... simply fuck off... it just seems they only care about the money they make with SCBW and want to make sure, that they don't have any competition from GSL / SC2...
kespa is nonprofit. Kespa is probably saying "fuck you" to sc2 cause they have emotional issues against Blizzard.
People are still forgetting the last 'intellectual rights negociations' kespa got involved in. Remember when they demanded MBCGame and OnGameNet had to pay them money to broadcast proleague?
They're a bunch of fucking hypocrits denying any form of intellectual rights payment.
You could argue that Kespa is non-profit, that they dont earn anything off organizing proleague, and that if anyone should pay for proleague rights it's MBCGame and OGN, but Kespa has used its position as official proleague organizer to demand intellectual rights payments from MBCGame and OGN earlier, so they should step up to the plate now too.
more people need to see this, so just quoting again. i nearly forgot about this fact too. sigh i don't even know who to support -_-
Things may be ugly for a while but I think bw will prevail. OGN was not willing to go into a legal battle with blizz/gretech, but I think if kespa did over the right to use BW as an esport and all that that entails then kespa would win.
Koreans are not pushovers, blizzard did not learn from what happened in china with WoTLK when they thought they could push people around there and the government intervened and hit them with all of these regulations that cost blizzard millions upon millions over the last 1.5 years.
Now blizzard is trying to maneuver it's way to monopolize esports in korea with that same greed that fueled them in china, and i think the koreans will show blizzard that as a software dev you need to know your role.
I think OGN will lose here because they DID go under contract with gretech, and I think MBC and Kespa will eventually be able to do what they do without being under contract with gretech, it's just going to take some time to get all the legal issues underway and sorted out.
What I would like to see are some laws passed that really empower the esports organizations and really taper the rights blizzard has when it comes to their product but only in regards to esports. Yes I know that sounds a bit weird, but keep in mind that blizzard has never given 2 craps about esports, they still don't, they just know that throwing up a prize pool generates a ton of hype and are hoping to cash in on the korean market.
On September 01 2010 03:42 hystorm wrote: holy shit this is so bad. the end of bw esports in korea is almost upon us because of fucking douchebags who want some extra change.
fuck you kespa, fuck you blizzard.
I really believe that the government would side with korean based organizations like MBC and KeSPA who have been around and growing esports for years, and not with a company like blizz who is just coming in trying to cash in on what the proleagues developed on their own.
On September 01 2010 02:28 Lokian wrote: Hate more please. :rolleyes:
oh, Blizzard doesn't care about BW. Really? What can they do when they're just going to get boycotted.
Great logic there.
And now they're trying SC2. Kespa, what the heck happened to 'for the fans' reaction. I don't see Blizzard/Gretech in any wrong. Kespa had too many chances.
Isn't it like... Gretech is trying to have Proleague and GSL together. By just changing Kespa's Schedule, wouldn't that fix that? But Kespa won't conform? Seems to me like a temper tantrum.
Why the fuck would OGN/MBC change their ProLeague time slots just because Gretech demands them to because they know GSL can't compete with PL? How ridiculous is that? T___T
On September 01 2010 03:34 robertdinh wrote: Things may be ugly for a while but I think bw will prevail. OGN was not willing to go into a legal battle with blizz/gretech, but I think if kespa did over the right to use BW as an esport and all that that entails then kespa would win.
Koreans are not pushovers, blizzard did not learn from what happened in china with WoTLK when they thought they could push people around there and the government intervened and hit them with all of these regulations that cost blizzard millions upon millions over the last 1.5 years.
Now blizzard is trying to maneuver it's way to monopolize esports in korea with that same greed that fueled them in china, and i think the koreans will show blizzard that as a software dev you need to know your role.
I think OGN will lose here because they DID go under contract with gretech, and I think MBC and Kespa will eventually be able to do what they do without being under contract with gretech, it's just going to take some time to get all the legal issues underway and sorted out.
What I would like to see are some laws passed that really empower the esports organizations and really taper the rights blizzard has when it comes to their product but only in regards to esports. Yes I know that sounds a bit weird, but keep in mind that blizzard has never given 2 craps about esports, they still don't, they just know that throwing up a prize pool generates a ton of hype and are hoping to cash in on the korean market.
What's that about Blizzard's greed and WoW in China? The only things that happened there were: 1) Blizzard switching their service provider from The9 to NetEase, forcing the game's content to be re-evaluated 2) power struggle between 2 government agencies about which should regulate online games 3) trying to release an expansion about the undead with depictions of the undead being banned in China and subsequently being denied approval for almost 2 years.
fucking blizzard. don't mess with the BW scene. you have already lost my faith and my future money for sc2 franchise. don't make me boycott diablo 3 too.
On September 01 2010 03:34 robertdinh wrote: Things may be ugly for a while but I think bw will prevail. OGN was not willing to go into a legal battle with blizz/gretech, but I think if kespa did over the right to use BW as an esport and all that that entails then kespa would win.
Koreans are not pushovers, blizzard did not learn from what happened in china with WoTLK when they thought they could push people around there and the government intervened and hit them with all of these regulations that cost blizzard millions upon millions over the last 1.5 years.
Now blizzard is trying to maneuver it's way to monopolize esports in korea with that same greed that fueled them in china, and i think the koreans will show blizzard that as a software dev you need to know your role.
I think OGN will lose here because they DID go under contract with gretech, and I think MBC and Kespa will eventually be able to do what they do without being under contract with gretech, it's just going to take some time to get all the legal issues underway and sorted out.
What I would like to see are some laws passed that really empower the esports organizations and really taper the rights blizzard has when it comes to their product but only in regards to esports. Yes I know that sounds a bit weird, but keep in mind that blizzard has never given 2 craps about esports, they still don't, they just know that throwing up a prize pool generates a ton of hype and are hoping to cash in on the korean market.
What's that about Blizzard's greed and WoW in China? The only things that happened there were: 1) Blizzard switching their service provider from The9 to NetEase, forcing the game's content to be re-evaluated 2) power struggle between 2 government agencies about which should regulate online games 3) trying to release an expansion about the undead with depictions of the undead being banned in China and subsequently being denied approval for almost 2 years.
The reality of it is that if you want things done in china you have to grease the right wheels. Blizzard didn't want to play ball because they thought they had more weight to throw around than they actually did, so the chinese government boned them with a ton of tedious regulations which cost blizzard millions.
Being naive is silly... naxxramas was around in vanilla wow, the undead race have been around forever, there is a reason why blizzard was conveniently hit with regulations at the time that they were.
It was because the government was sending a message that if blizzard doesn't want to pay or work with the right people, blizzard is going to suffer for it.
ok i've realized theres two different kinds of people in this thread, people who think actiblizzard is evil, and people who think dogspa is an asshole. I can see that you'll never learn to agree unless you see things through the eyes of someone else, so i have drawn visual representations on the opinions of both sides
On August 31 2010 23:49 Killmour wrote: I love how Kespa tries to say it cares about E-sports, what a colossal joke, even a total idiot can see through their bullshit.
hmm...you know, the KOREAN E-SPORTS PLAYERS ASSOCIATON
probably cares quite a bit about E-sports since...you know, that's why Kespa exists in the first place.
On August 31 2010 23:49 Killmour wrote: I love how Activision-Blizzard tries to say it cares about E-sports, what a colossal joke, even a total idiot can see through their bullshit.
Woah crazy!! They're gonna destructivize all the teams!! Pretty apocalyptic and awesome. I'm interested to see what new things will happen when everything is destroyed. Unfortunately, most of the current pros will probably go to the military. I bet Stork will quit altogether and just make children with his girlfriend, level up in WoW, and read One Piece...
It would be awesome to see Jaedong and Flash in SC2 though. Bring on the holocaust I say!
On September 01 2010 03:34 robertdinh wrote: Things may be ugly for a while but I think bw will prevail. OGN was not willing to go into a legal battle with blizz/gretech, but I think if kespa did over the right to use BW as an esport and all that that entails then kespa would win.
Koreans are not pushovers, blizzard did not learn from what happened in china with WoTLK when they thought they could push people around there and the government intervened and hit them with all of these regulations that cost blizzard millions upon millions over the last 1.5 years.
Now blizzard is trying to maneuver it's way to monopolize esports in korea with that same greed that fueled them in china, and i think the koreans will show blizzard that as a software dev you need to know your role.
I think OGN will lose here because they DID go under contract with gretech, and I think MBC and Kespa will eventually be able to do what they do without being under contract with gretech, it's just going to take some time to get all the legal issues underway and sorted out.
What I would like to see are some laws passed that really empower the esports organizations and really taper the rights blizzard has when it comes to their product but only in regards to esports. Yes I know that sounds a bit weird, but keep in mind that blizzard has never given 2 craps about esports, they still don't, they just know that throwing up a prize pool generates a ton of hype and are hoping to cash in on the korean market.
What's that about Blizzard's greed and WoW in China? The only things that happened there were: 1) Blizzard switching their service provider from The9 to NetEase, forcing the game's content to be re-evaluated 2) power struggle between 2 government agencies about which should regulate online games 3) trying to release an expansion about the undead with depictions of the undead being banned in China and subsequently being denied approval for almost 2 years.
The reality of it is that if you want things done in china you have to grease the right wheels. Blizzard didn't want to play ball because they thought they had more weight to throw around than they actually did, so the chinese government boned them with a ton of tedious regulations which cost blizzard millions.
Being naive is silly... naxxramas was around in vanilla wow, the undead race have been around forever, there is a reason why blizzard was conveniently hit with regulations at the time that they were.
It was because the government was sending a message that if blizzard doesn't want to pay or work with the right people, blizzard is going to suffer for it.
Ok I get the "not wanting to pay the semi-official bribes = greed" part, now how does this relate to their dealings in a non-communist, non-totalitarian country?
It sucks that kespas hard work of establishing a system for progaming for BW is being destroyed due to "IP rights". It seems like a large loophole in IP rights that blizzard can even come in years down the line and try to profit from the tournaments. On the whole it could potentially damage everyone by making blizzard games less popular. =/
TBH I'm going to side with Kespa (I feel dirty saying that).
Let's be honest, BW will eventually die, particularly as SC2 becomes better as is guaranteed by continued patching and 2 expansions to come. I would say Pro BW has about 5 years left. If you're Blizzard, why do you care what happens to BW? Players and attention will eventually migrate towards SC2 anyway, why just piss people off?
Kespa made soup from a stone, and now that it's a success Blizzard insists on butting it? I don't like it, seems greedy.
On September 01 2010 03:34 robertdinh wrote: Things may be ugly for a while but I think bw will prevail. OGN was not willing to go into a legal battle with blizz/gretech, but I think if kespa did over the right to use BW as an esport and all that that entails then kespa would win.
Koreans are not pushovers, blizzard did not learn from what happened in china with WoTLK when they thought they could push people around there and the government intervened and hit them with all of these regulations that cost blizzard millions upon millions over the last 1.5 years.
Now blizzard is trying to maneuver it's way to monopolize esports in korea with that same greed that fueled them in china, and i think the koreans will show blizzard that as a software dev you need to know your role.
I think OGN will lose here because they DID go under contract with gretech, and I think MBC and Kespa will eventually be able to do what they do without being under contract with gretech, it's just going to take some time to get all the legal issues underway and sorted out.
What I would like to see are some laws passed that really empower the esports organizations and really taper the rights blizzard has when it comes to their product but only in regards to esports. Yes I know that sounds a bit weird, but keep in mind that blizzard has never given 2 craps about esports, they still don't, they just know that throwing up a prize pool generates a ton of hype and are hoping to cash in on the korean market.
What's that about Blizzard's greed and WoW in China? The only things that happened there were: 1) Blizzard switching their service provider from The9 to NetEase, forcing the game's content to be re-evaluated 2) power struggle between 2 government agencies about which should regulate online games 3) trying to release an expansion about the undead with depictions of the undead being banned in China and subsequently being denied approval for almost 2 years.
The reality of it is that if you want things done in china you have to grease the right wheels. Blizzard didn't want to play ball because they thought they had more weight to throw around than they actually did, so the chinese government boned them with a ton of tedious regulations which cost blizzard millions.
Being naive is silly... naxxramas was around in vanilla wow, the undead race have been around forever, there is a reason why blizzard was conveniently hit with regulations at the time that they were.
It was because the government was sending a message that if blizzard doesn't want to pay or work with the right people, blizzard is going to suffer for it.
Ok I get the "not wanting to pay the semi-official bribes = greed" part, now how does this relate to their dealings in a non-communist, non-totalitarian country?
Please don't misconstrue what I say. Be more objective than that... The point is that blizzard tried to assert their "power" in china, it failed miserably. Now they are trying to assert their power in korea, and I don't think the korean government is going to roll over and let them have their way. It is just going to take time to work through all the legal issues and draw a new line.
On September 01 2010 04:38 FabledIntegral wrote: Wait, I don't get it. If the proleague is nonprofit then why would they have to pay Gretech anything? I must not be getting the full picture.
I can understand why Gretech is playing hardball with KeSPA though considering they boycotted the past GomTV Classic.
Kespa cannot hide behind the fact that they do not make a profit as long as Gretech holds the rights to stacraft. Think of it like bootlegging a video game. The person ripping it and uploading it to a torrent site isn't making money, but it is still detrimental to the sales of that game. Thats why its still illegal.
On September 01 2010 04:19 swanized wrote: it's fun to note most of the people siding with bliz have under 100 posts <_< >_>
good to know you're keeping tally, and are elitest enough to care about post count
he's trying to say that some of the newer TL members who haven't really followed the Korean BW scene and only the SC2 scene don't understand the huge role of Kespa and are blatantly biased because they only joined TL when Blizzard was announcing SC2.
Anyway, all I want to say is that both sides are fucked up and its such a damned shame that either SC2 or the legendary SCBW scene we all love has to suffer in some way. All this is because of damn shortsighted companies only pursuing profits. Blizzard, that's you too, you money-sucking freak, charging $70 USD for 1/3 of SC2... possibly totaling over $200 for a single game?? What the shit.
On September 01 2010 03:34 robertdinh wrote: Things may be ugly for a while but I think bw will prevail. OGN was not willing to go into a legal battle with blizz/gretech, but I think if kespa did over the right to use BW as an esport and all that that entails then kespa would win.
Koreans are not pushovers, blizzard did not learn from what happened in china with WoTLK when they thought they could push people around there and the government intervened and hit them with all of these regulations that cost blizzard millions upon millions over the last 1.5 years.
Now blizzard is trying to maneuver it's way to monopolize esports in korea with that same greed that fueled them in china, and i think the koreans will show blizzard that as a software dev you need to know your role.
I think OGN will lose here because they DID go under contract with gretech, and I think MBC and Kespa will eventually be able to do what they do without being under contract with gretech, it's just going to take some time to get all the legal issues underway and sorted out.
What I would like to see are some laws passed that really empower the esports organizations and really taper the rights blizzard has when it comes to their product but only in regards to esports. Yes I know that sounds a bit weird, but keep in mind that blizzard has never given 2 craps about esports, they still don't, they just know that throwing up a prize pool generates a ton of hype and are hoping to cash in on the korean market.
What's that about Blizzard's greed and WoW in China? The only things that happened there were: 1) Blizzard switching their service provider from The9 to NetEase, forcing the game's content to be re-evaluated 2) power struggle between 2 government agencies about which should regulate online games 3) trying to release an expansion about the undead with depictions of the undead being banned in China and subsequently being denied approval for almost 2 years.
The reality of it is that if you want things done in china you have to grease the right wheels. Blizzard didn't want to play ball because they thought they had more weight to throw around than they actually did, so the chinese government boned them with a ton of tedious regulations which cost blizzard millions.
Being naive is silly... naxxramas was around in vanilla wow, the undead race have been around forever, there is a reason why blizzard was conveniently hit with regulations at the time that they were.
It was because the government was sending a message that if blizzard doesn't want to pay or work with the right people, blizzard is going to suffer for it.
Ok I get the "not wanting to pay the semi-official bribes = greed" part, now how does this relate to their dealings in a non-communist, non-totalitarian country?
Please don't misconstrue what I say. Be more objective than that... The point is that blizzard tried to assert their "power" in china, it failed miserably. Now they are trying to assert their power in korea, and I don't think the korean government is going to roll over and let them have their way. It is just going to take time to work through all the legal issues and draw a new line.
I think just the fact that all 3 organizations that have something to do with broadcasting ESPORTS in Korea are negotiating is proof enough that they know they'd most likely lose in court. Wasn't there a thread not long ago where the ministry of culture said they'd have an arbiter for IP rights issues? That will be the last chance to knock some sense into anybody involved.
On September 01 2010 04:19 swanized wrote: it's fun to note most of the people siding with bliz have under 100 posts <_< >_>
I have less than 100 posts and I'm siding with Blizzard. Though, it's funny to note that I registered before you did.
I understand Gretechs position, and I honestly feel that if OGN can get on board and show support for esports as a whole (In that they're now allowed to run a BW and SC2 league), theres no reason KeSPA shouldn't. I thought KeSPA was for esports growth and the fans, yet here they're claiming to only have support for BW?
I also noticed this:
On August 31 2010 23:42 Milkis wrote: Gretech has said "If KeSPA rejects negotiations related to monetary payments, then from an industry operation viewpoint, let us know how you will reimburse Gretech", and "Since there may be a lot of noise if we reveal the amount of monetary payment we want and may look like we're forcing the amount, let us know if you have a monetary payment in mind".
Maybe I'm misunderstanding it but it sounds like Gretech is/was open for suggestions on how KeSPA would reimburse them if not through monetary payments. Hell the last part even asks what amount KeSPA has in mind. KeSPA's response? 0.
Anyway GOM has all the balls in their court now. I bet at least some people in KeSPA regret boycotting the GOMTV Classic.
On September 01 2010 03:42 hystorm wrote: holy shit this is so bad. the end of bw esports in korea is almost upon us because of fucking douchebags who want some extra change.
fuck you kespa, fuck you blizzard.
I really believe that the government would side with korean based organizations like MBC and KeSPA who have been around and growing esports for years, and not with a company like blizz who is just coming in trying to cash in on what the proleagues developed on their own.
Blizz has offices in SKorea. They're not some big foreign company coming over and trying to file lawsuits...there are Koreans working for Blizz, born and living in Korea representing Blizzard in SKorea. -_-
On September 01 2010 03:34 robertdinh wrote: Things may be ugly for a while but I think bw will prevail. OGN was not willing to go into a legal battle with blizz/gretech, but I think if kespa did over the right to use BW as an esport and all that that entails then kespa would win.
Koreans are not pushovers, blizzard did not learn from what happened in china with WoTLK when they thought they could push people around there and the government intervened and hit them with all of these regulations that cost blizzard millions upon millions over the last 1.5 years.
Now blizzard is trying to maneuver it's way to monopolize esports in korea with that same greed that fueled them in china, and i think the koreans will show blizzard that as a software dev you need to know your role.
I think OGN will lose here because they DID go under contract with gretech, and I think MBC and Kespa will eventually be able to do what they do without being under contract with gretech, it's just going to take some time to get all the legal issues underway and sorted out.
What I would like to see are some laws passed that really empower the esports organizations and really taper the rights blizzard has when it comes to their product but only in regards to esports. Yes I know that sounds a bit weird, but keep in mind that blizzard has never given 2 craps about esports, they still don't, they just know that throwing up a prize pool generates a ton of hype and are hoping to cash in on the korean market.
What's that about Blizzard's greed and WoW in China? The only things that happened there were: 1) Blizzard switching their service provider from The9 to NetEase, forcing the game's content to be re-evaluated 2) power struggle between 2 government agencies about which should regulate online games 3) trying to release an expansion about the undead with depictions of the undead being banned in China and subsequently being denied approval for almost 2 years.
The reality of it is that if you want things done in china you have to grease the right wheels. Blizzard didn't want to play ball because they thought they had more weight to throw around than they actually did, so the chinese government boned them with a ton of tedious regulations which cost blizzard millions.
Being naive is silly... naxxramas was around in vanilla wow, the undead race have been around forever, there is a reason why blizzard was conveniently hit with regulations at the time that they were.
It was because the government was sending a message that if blizzard doesn't want to pay or work with the right people, blizzard is going to suffer for it.
Ok I get the "not wanting to pay the semi-official bribes = greed" part, now how does this relate to their dealings in a non-communist, non-totalitarian country?
Please don't misconstrue what I say. Be more objective than that... The point is that blizzard tried to assert their "power" in china, it failed miserably. Now they are trying to assert their power in korea, and I don't think the korean government is going to roll over and let them have their way. It is just going to take time to work through all the legal issues and draw a new line.
I think just the fact that all 3 organizations that have something to do with broadcasting ESPORTS in Korea are negotiating is proof enough that they know they'd most likely lose in court. Wasn't there a thread not long ago where the ministry of culture said they'd have an arbiter for IP rights issues? That will be the last chance to knock some sense into anybody involved.
OGN made the deal because they have the funding and don't want any delays in their operations and OSL.
Kespa and MBC aren't really negotiating because the terms gretech is giving them are not even remotely satisfactory to them so negotiation is pointless.
On September 01 2010 03:42 hystorm wrote: holy shit this is so bad. the end of bw esports in korea is almost upon us because of fucking douchebags who want some extra change.
fuck you kespa, fuck you blizzard.
I really believe that the government would side with korean based organizations like MBC and KeSPA who have been around and growing esports for years, and not with a company like blizz who is just coming in trying to cash in on what the proleagues developed on their own.
Blizz has offices in SKorea. They're not some big foreign company coming over and trying to file lawsuits...there are Koreans working for Blizz, born and living in Korea representing Blizzard in SKorea. -_-
Blizz is a foreign company, don't kid yourself. Just cause it has staff in skorea doesn't mean it is skorean.
That's like saying that just because NCsoft has offices in america it means they aren't a foreign company, when in reality their still very clearly a korean company.
On September 01 2010 04:19 swanized wrote: it's fun to note most of the people siding with bliz have under 100 posts <_< >_>
good to know you're keeping tally, and are elitest enough to care about post count
he's trying to say that some of the newer TL members who haven't really followed the Korean BW scene and only the SC2 scene don't understand the huge role of Kespa and are blatantly biased because they only joined TL when Blizzard was announcing SC2.
Anyway, all I want to say is that both sides are fucked up and its such a damned shame that either SC2 or the legendary SCBW scene we all love has to suffer in some way. All this is because of damn shortsighted companies only pursuing profits. Blizzard, that's you too, you money-sucking freak, charging $70 USD for 1/3 of SC2... possibly totaling over $200 for a single game?? What the shit.
Because of this, there are opinions within KeSPA to force the operation of the 10~11 Proleague season. Upon operating the 10~11 Proleague season, if Gretech starts an issue related to IP Rights, then they will deal with after the fact, and in the worst case scenario of the season being forcibly stopped, that they would be willing to disband all the progame teams.
On September 01 2010 04:19 swanized wrote: it's fun to note most of the people siding with bliz have under 100 posts <_< >_>
I have less than 100 posts and I'm siding with Blizzard. Though, it's funny to note that I registered before you did.
I understand Gretechs position, and I honestly feel that if OGN can get on board and show support for esports as a whole (In that they're now allowed to run a BW and SC2 league), theres no reason KeSPA shouldn't. I thought KeSPA was for esports growth and the fans, yet here they're claiming to only have support for BW?
On August 31 2010 23:42 Milkis wrote: Gretech has said "If KeSPA rejects negotiations related to monetary payments, then from an industry operation viewpoint, let us know how you will reimburse Gretech", and "Since there may be a lot of noise if we reveal the amount of monetary payment we want and may look like we're forcing the amount, let us know if you have a monetary payment in mind".
Maybe I'm misunderstanding it but it sounds like Gretech is/was open for suggestions on how KeSPA would reimburse them if not through monetary payments. Hell the last part even asks what amount KeSPA has in mind. KeSPA's response? 0.
Anyway GOM has all the balls in their court now. I bet at least some people in KeSPA regret boycotting the GOMTV Classic.
my comment was mean to say that a loto f the people siding with blizzard maybe don't have the best understanding of the situation since they never really followed the SC:BW scene, if you are aware of everything and still side with blizzard then ok go for it,
as of Kespa not promoting SC2, they probably would if Blizzard had not threatened them first, would you try to promote something done by someone who is threatening your very existence?
also they can't really do that since blizzard gave all rights to Gretech so yeah it's not because KesPa did not want to that they did not try to get E-sports running for SC2 (heck they even got stuff running for Special Force) but because Blizzard threatened them and won't let them do anything about SC2 now.
The only good thing coming from all this is the willingness of KeSPA to run the leagues without the agreement with Blizz/Greed-tech. Looking forward to another MSL and proleague.
See, I'd love to watch the GSL and everything. But honestly, I'm not sure I should be supporting those clowns at GOM, and their determination to milk BW for all it's worth before leaving it to die. Disgusting.
It'll be interesting to see a court case come out of this, and whether or not KeSPA would get anywhere with their argument.
On August 31 2010 23:42 Milkis wrote: [...] The negotiations also included things related to the GSL. Regarding the GSL, Gretech has said "If Proleague goes on without any monetary reimbursement, then from our position, we can end up in a position where we're not guaranteed any profits as GSL can be damaged because of the Proleague", adding that "Because KeSPA has boycotted the GomTV Classic in the past, the GSL can be damaged again due to the Proleague schedule". [...]
heh, so BW watching is an obstacle? Thing about GSL schedule is that it might be also damaged with Ottogi Tekken, Sudden Strike, random soccer match or any TV program. Just that they only can push Kespa and not others.
By the way, what are opinions of SC2 players on this, especially ones who used to play BW?
I think it's kind of hilarious that you all think the BW scene will die if KeSPA pulls the leagues and disbands the teams and attacks North Korea and resurrects Hitler. It won't. A new power will rise to the occasion, because people will make money wherever there is a market. Brood War, just 2 years ago, was almost a USD 100,000,000 / year industry, and that's just straight profit from broadcasting the games. Let's not even get in to the dynamics of sponsors and merchandise. There is money to be made with Starcraft: Brood War, with or without KeSPA, and someone will seize the day if the current power is ousted from their thrones.
Also, didn't Blizzard and GOM try to support their own BW starleague 2 years ago and KeSPA essentially told them to fuck off? Anyone remember that? Yeah, I do.
Blizzard supporter (with over 800 posts, swanized [nice red text, btw])
On August 31 2010 23:42 Milkis wrote: [...] The negotiations also included things related to the GSL. Regarding the GSL, Gretech has said "If Proleague goes on without any monetary reimbursement, then from our position, we can end up in a position where we're not guaranteed any profits as GSL can be damaged because of the Proleague", adding that "Because KeSPA has boycotted the GomTV Classic in the past, the GSL can be damaged again due to the Proleague schedule". [...]
heh, so BW watching is an obstacle? Thing about GSL schedule is that it might be also damaged with Ottogi Tekken, Sudden Strike, random soccer match or any TV program. Just that they only can push Kespa and not others.
By the way, what are opinions of SC2 players on this, especially ones who used to play BW?
Well what company in their right mind would allow themselves to be counter-programmed by a game that they own the broadcast rights to? That's the kind of thing Kespa would probably try too
I can see both sides of the argument but it really blows that the most affected will be the gamers and fans of the game.
Killing BW like this will have to have some negative impact in SC2's development, I wish Blizzard would take this into consideration.
Also, who is KesPa trying to kid here? They make no money out of running proleague? They must be a pretty altruistic bunch though I seriously doubt they go through all the trouble of coordinating a year long league just out of the goodness of their hearts. Maybe they can try to pay off Blizzard with some chicken? hey it worked for STX when they paid off Oz!
On August 31 2010 23:53 Nesto wrote: what the hell...
Gretech... you think GSL would survive if you forcibly stop the proleague and force the disbanding of the proleague teams? imagine the outrage..
and for Kespa... simply fuck off... it just seems they only care about the money they make with SCBW and want to make sure, that they don't have any competition from GSL / SC2...
kespa is nonprofit. Kespa is probably saying "fuck you" to sc2 cause they have emotional issues against Blizzard.
People are still forgetting the last 'intellectual rights negociations' kespa got involved in. Remember when they demanded MBCGame and OnGameNet had to pay them money to broadcast proleague?
They're a bunch of fucking hypocrits denying any form of intellectual rights payment.
You could argue that Kespa is non-profit, that they dont earn anything off organizing proleague, and that if anyone should pay for proleague rights it's MBCGame and OGN, but Kespa has used its position as official proleague organizer to demand intellectual rights payments from MBCGame and OGN earlier, so they should step up to the plate now too.
Oh, I definitely agree with that. Don't worry, I'm not defending KeSPA -- I'm just stating facts. KeSPA *is* a non profit organization. I'm just pointing out they're not making any money from SC: BW.
On August 31 2010 23:49 Killmour wrote: I love how Kespa tries to say it cares about E-sports, what a colossal joke, even a total idiot can see through their bullshit.
Are you kidding me? They kept a TEN year old game on national TV. Do u know how hard that is? In every country except Korea, they have no gaming stations at all, let alone 2, and they don't play a ten year old game.
I personally reside with Kespa as it makes sense for them to not promote SC2. I mean, how would it help them? It would be like promoting your competitor. It says Kespa is paying a fee, and therefore, they don't need to make changes to their schedule just for SC2
On September 01 2010 05:55 amazingoopah wrote: Also, who is KesPa trying to kid here? They make no money out of running proleague? They must be a pretty altruistic bunch though I seriously doubt they go through all the trouble of coordinating a year long league just out of the goodness of their hearts. Maybe they can try to pay off Blizzard with some chicken? hey it worked for STX when they paid off Oz!
This... Kespa is no TL.Net, TL does all this for us just because they want, kespa has show so many times they do it for money...
I said this in the other thread, but KeSPA should take the matter to the korean courts. For one it will buy them time while Proleague continues and has a chance of working to their advantage (as before).
The following is a crazy ass 'what if' that likely has about as much chance of happening as a zombie invasion:
If worse comes to worst, KeSPA should join forces with China and relocate their teams there. KeSPA could still be in charge of the teams/sponsors, but the location of broadcast would be in china (and broadcast to Korea as well as in China). China would benefit by increasing their esport market considerably (and could even add a team or two of their own). The Korean sponsors would still get the same benefit though now will reach an entire new audience as well. Players will spend most of the year abroad, but they are indoors 90% of the time anyway so just cover up the windows on the team houses and they wont know the difference -.-' and Blizzard will have no chance of winning an IP claim in China as we've seen before. The only one that is still screwed by this is OGN/MBC, I have no good solution for that :/
Fuck you blizzard... really, when I was just starting to give a chance to SC2 (I wanted to buy the fucking lame game) and now this.... I hope we still get proleague and OSL/MSL, but I dont want to see them forced to disband the teams.
Since the start of this fucking fight Im with Kespa, I trust those guys (yeah they did some fucked up things, but still thanks to Kespa I love this game so much).
On September 01 2010 05:55 amazingoopah wrote: Also, who is KesPa trying to kid here? They make no money out of running proleague? They must be a pretty altruistic bunch though I seriously doubt they go through all the trouble of coordinating a year long league just out of the goodness of their hearts. Maybe they can try to pay off Blizzard with some chicken? hey it worked for STX when they paid off Oz!
This... Kespa is no TL.Net, TL does all this for us just because they want, kespa has show so many times they do it for money...
I don't think you understand what KeSPA is... there doesn't have to be a monetary income for it to be worth it. KeSPA is comprised of the team sponsors, and they are in this whole thing for PR from the beginning. They shell out considerable costs running their teams (housing, food, uniforms, computer equipment, full time coaching staff, transportation, cooking/cleaning personnel, etc) and they benefit by getting a good image for it and with any luck, some additional sales of their products by the fans (though it can't be proven that its actually worth the investment). This is just like how many large corporations spend money for image even if they don't get something directly for it (Pepsi college scholarships for an example).
The only ones profiting directly from this are the broadcasters (OGN/MBCGame) who sell advertisement spots, though they also have costs involved with running their studios for broardcasting all the leagues/shows involved (I would imagine they still come out on top quite a bit). Aside from selling advertisements though, BW doesn't bring in money since no merchandise is sold by most teams (not on any meaningful level), there are no ticket sales and admission to all BW events is 100% free.
Its true that KeSPA has done a lot of dumb/greedy things over the years, and they're certainly no saints. Charging broadcasting rights from OGN/MBC in 2007 was one of those things (even though they were the absolute power over the Proleague) and I disagreed with a lot of their past decisions,
I'll take this time to also admit that I don't think KeSPA and they have done some greedy things in the past (like charging a broadcast fee) which I disgreed with, not to mention some very stupid decisions over the years, but I'm with them on this one.
On September 01 2010 05:36 VorcePA wrote: I think it's kind of hilarious that you all think the BW scene will die if KeSPA pulls the leagues and disbands the teams and attacks North Korea and resurrects Hitler. It won't. A new power will rise to the occasion, because people will make money wherever there is a market.
Do you even know what Kespa is? Kespa is basically an organization representing the 11 team sponsor's interests. If you remove the 11 sponsors (11 of Korea's largest companies, and the ones that have shown themselves willing to fund such teams), then you've removed a giant chunk of the sponsorship money that goes into paying the players, funding the leagues, and so on. Other sponsors won't just magically appear to provide the same amount of funding as before.
On September 01 2010 05:36 VorcePA wrote: Brood War, just 2 years ago, was almost a USD 100,000,000 / year industry, and that's just straight profit from broadcasting the games. Let's not even get in to the dynamics of sponsors and merchandise. There is money to be made with Starcraft: Brood War, with or without KeSPA, and someone will seize the day if the current power is ousted from their thrones.
Good job making up facts and figures. You really think the broadcasters get 100 million USD per year from sponsors "straight profit from broadcasting the games"? And there's almost no merchandising, BTW.
Blizzard is very smart though. Being partners with GOMTV is just "divide et impera". Anyway, I'm with Blizzard because KeSPA has failed so many times and has also prevented us from watching some nice showmatches. If they were really for E-Sports, then they wouldn't deny sc2.
I think Kespa is very willfully pushing this to a court decision. And while they're not 100% just in the matter neither is activision and their "our IP, our EVERYTHING" stance. I expect an arbitrated decision where Kespa gets a better deal than gretech is offering now.
P.S. Blizzard should have given BW to Korea as a gift and taken a tax write-off.
Kespa can't disband all pro teams, they just run the SC1 pro league, a different organization can arise to organize a SC1 league or the pro teams can all switch to SC2.
SC1 ratings have been falling for the last 3 years in Korea and I think transferring to SC2 will change all that.
Don't players who win tourneys in Korea have to pay a huge tax of their winnings if they don't have a progamer license? If I recall that's why the progamer license was created in the first place, to avoid the tax. And Kespa could very well fuck over GOM and its GSL by invoking that tax if its still relevant.
Its true that KeSPA has done a lot of dumb/greedy things over the years, and they're certainly no saints. Charging broadcasting rights from OGN/MBC in 2007 was one of those things (even though they were the absolute power over the Proleague)
How is this stupid/greedy ? They basically pay a lot of money to organize all this (Kespa = sponsors) so it's only natural they want some chunk broadcasters make from it. If you organize football league for example you charge big $$$ from tv stations too.
What is greedy and completely stupid is to try to charge Kespa. I am fan of SCBW pro scene and I hate Blizzard for trying to kill it and bring their new quite shitty (for kibitzers, i have no doubt it's great to play) game instead. Maybe it's necessary step though. No sport/esport is possible in the longterm if one company is in charge of everything. Everywhere else (american pro leagues like NBA etc.) the league organizers are in charge and this is much more healthy situation.
On September 01 2010 07:21 slimshady wrote: Blizzard is very smart though. Being partners with GOMTV is just "divide et impera". Anyway, I'm with Blizzard because KeSPA has failed so many times and has also prevented us from watching some nice showmatches. If they were really for E-Sports, then they wouldn't deny sc2.
Being partners with GOM on its own isn't a huge stake in Korea. GOMTV isn't very well liked, and they aren't actually a TV station, that's where OGN comes in for them (though I hope if things hit the wall, OGN will side along with MBC and KeSPA).
And when have they prevented us watching "some nice showmatches"? the shit with Nada was already sorted out. Got any actual examples?
On September 01 2010 07:40 thehitman wrote: Kespa can't disband all pro teams, they just run the SC1 pro league, a different organization can arise to organize a SC1 league or the pro teams can all switch to SC2.
SC1 ratings have been falling for the last 3 years in Korea and I think transferring to SC2 will change all that.
And find another 11 major companies to pay the players' salaries, housings, food, travel expenses etcetc? Fat chance. KeSPA = the sponsors, not some greedy third part company that has nothing to do with the teams at all. Also I don't think the sponsors, with this standpoint, would let their teams switch to SC2 just like that.
On September 01 2010 07:40 thehitman wrote: Kespa can't disband all pro teams, they just run the SC1 pro league, a different organization can arise to organize a SC1 league or the pro teams can all switch to SC2.
SC1 ratings have been falling for the last 3 years in Korea and I think transferring to SC2 will change all that.
Based on what?, sorry you are making asumptions and for your post you dont know what is Kespa, it is not an "organization", It is the companies that for whatever reason want to spend money sponsoring e-sports (good luck finding 11 sponsors in a niche market), and they are not going to switch to SC2 so easy because BW in Korea is a cultural thing. SC2 will be succesful in Korea as an e-sport only if surpasses the level of BWs viewers, not because some uninformed guys in a forum say: "SC2 is new and i got the feeling that is going to be bigger than BW".
As much as I hate KESPA they organize the only tournaments I'm interested in watching. If Blizz is behind the end of PL and the MSL that is the end of my involvement and interest in E-SPORTS besides watching EVO.
I don't care about SC2 in the slightest bit, I don't even know what the units are. This really sucks for me.
Responding to this, KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV. If Gretech is like this, then there isn't any more point of negotiations".
Its true that KeSPA has done a lot of dumb/greedy things over the years, and they're certainly no saints. Charging broadcasting rights from OGN/MBC in 2007 was one of those things (even though they were the absolute power over the Proleague)
How is this stupid/greedy ? They basically pay a lot of money to organize all this (Kespa = sponsors) so it's only natural they want some chunk broadcasters make from it. If you organize football league for example you charge big $$$ from tv stations too.
What is greedy and completely stupid is to try to charge Kespa.
What was stupid was that that they caused a scandal by creating broadcasting rights and then charging for them while they didn't hold actual IP to it. It was within their rights to charge for broadcasting proleague (and in doing so allowing OGN and MBC to carry it) but also opened up the doors to the dispute with Blizzard. This matter could and should have simply been decided on behind closed doors back then, since OGN and MBC are both represented on the board but the negotiations were made public which later caused Blizzard to step in and call out pieces of the pie. They were wrong then and Blizzard is wrong now.
Because we don't make any profit from the Proleague, and the 11 progame teams all pay quite a considerable amount of money for team operations and the board of directors free, it's quite difficult to pay Gretech reimbursement in any sort of currency.
Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague
Because we don't make any profit from the Proleague, and the 11 progame teams all pay quite a considerable amount of money for team operations and the board of directors free, it's quite difficult to pay Gretech reimbursement in any sort of currency.
"Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV. If Gretech is like this, then there isn't any more point of negotiations".
I think this is just a hypothetical situation. Even if they paid to broadcast BW, but would still be required to schedule around GSL, which they don't want to do.
On September 01 2010 07:40 thehitman wrote: Kespa can't disband all pro teams, they just run the SC1 pro league, a different organization can arise to organize a SC1 league or the pro teams can all switch to SC2.
SC1 ratings have been falling for the last 3 years in Korea and I think transferring to SC2 will change all that.
Several of the Kespa board members work for the corporate sponsors. While this may not apply to all teams, you'd be foolish to think that some sponsors wouldn't just pull out over this. While this may be old info, the head of Kespa is the president of SKT's GMS division.
Finding team sponsors is not as easy as everyone thinks it is. Anyone remember the Hanbit Soft "crisis"? While everyone may bash Kespa for a ton of crap they do, they do occasionally do really awesome things.
On September 01 2010 07:51 ArvickHero wrote: Don't players who win tourneys in Korea have to pay a huge tax of their winnings if they don't have a progamer license? If I recall that's why the progamer license was created in the first place, to avoid the tax. And Kespa could very well fuck over GOM and its GSL by invoking that tax if its still relevant.
This was changed relatively recently. From the GSL thread:
▲ Until now, only progamers had the 3.3% special tax rate. However, since the law changed in 2009, if a lot of players compete in a league, only 20% of the earnings are able to be taxed at 22% rate. That means you'll only have to pay 4.4% as tax. This is already being applied to all of the amateur leagues in Korea. So the players participating won't have to worry about losing a lot of money to tax.
"Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV. If Gretech is like this, then there isn't any more point of negotiations".
I think this is just a hypothetical situation. Even if they paid to broadcast BW, but would still be required to schedule around GSL, which they don't want to do.
Scheduling around GSL is the least of the issues on the table. It was about Blizzard demanding ridiculous power over KeSPA and the BW scene in korea (in addition to usage fees from team sponsors, league sponsors and rights for proleague). Being able to have the final say over player contracts and leagues, having the power to cancel and reschedule events, deny sponsors, priority over player schedules for Blizzard's own events, audit KeSPA's finances, only giving them contracts in 1 year increments (which could then be discontinued the following year), etc.
i don't know where to start on this because everything's all over the place, can we not just merge all into one thread? i can't even see one i was reading this morning so i assume that got merged into one of the two threads that look to be splitting discussion.
as to the actual topic, whenever money gets involved into anything, the interests of the fans go right to the bottom. i'm not particularly interested in who's fault it is, i just want 10/11 proleague and future individual leagues to happen. someone make it so. yes, blizzard have a new product out. i don't care about that as a spectator sport until you make it one, don't try and force it on us, let it develop naturally. you can all coexist. stop trying to kill the goose that laid the golden egg.
My gosh they're like bickering kids. And the fans and players are the ones who suffer, not the stupid CEO's. Makes me so angry that I barely have words.
I hope KeSPA dies in the ass. They claim to care about esports, however they show no interest in anything that isn't SCBW. Esports goes beyond SCBW. They claim to be a players association, however at no stage have they ever considered the best interests of the players, nor have they operated in the best interests of the players.
Blizzard fucked KeSPA up, then transferred the rights to Gretech with the intent of letting them finish KeSPA off for them.
Bottom line: KeSPA will have learnt a lesson from trying to fuck with Blizzard. I'm so glad those c*nts got ruined and I can't wait for them to stupidly start their Proleague only to get sued by Gretech and lose horribly. Fuck you KeSPA.
On September 01 2010 10:17 PulseNova wrote: I hope KeSPA dies in the ass. They claim to care about esports, however they show no interest in anything that isn't SCBW. Esports goes beyond SCBW. They claim to be a players association, however at no stage have they ever considered the best interests of the players, nor have they operated in the best interests of the players.
Blizzard fucked KeSPA up, then transferred the rights to Gretech with the intent of letting them finish KeSPA off for them.
Bottom line: KeSPA will have learnt a lesson from trying to fuck with Blizzard. I'm so glad those c*nts got ruined and I can't wait for them to stupidly start their Proleague only to get sued by Gretech and lose horribly. Fuck you KeSPA.
KESPA isn't there to promote other games. If there is another organization that wants to promote other games, they are welcome to do so. Without kespa, guess what? The quality of play will go down.
I am 99.99% sure Kespa runs leagues for more games than SCBW. Never seen those special forces, kart rider, or sudden attack commercials? Just because they don't want an SC2 league doesn't mean they don't care about ESPORTS.
On September 01 2010 10:39 biskit wrote: I hope KeSPA dissolves all the teams so the progamers can upgrade to SC2. I wanna see Jaedong and Flash play the new Starcraft.
Too bad that won't happen.
So you're hoping Jaedong and Flash get a massive pay cut? How selfish. You want to know the real reason Nada cut the games with TLO short at IEM? He didn't want to lose his paycheck.
unfortunately SC2 is doing terrible in SK right now. besides, without an actually salary as a baseline, parents will not allow their kids to waste so much time in SC2. korean kids, unlike american ones, actually DO listen to their parents. flash for example, gives all his earnings to his parents.
why can't KeSPA and Blizzard just get along?I mean its stupid as far as I know Blizzard doesn't know shit about E-Sports(although Gretech does) and KeSPA are the key since they ran their game successfully for the last 10 years.KeSPA on the other hand are being stubborn saying that they don't want anything to do with SC2(yet).
for the sake of the present and long term future KeSPA should cave in to Blizzard's demands or everything will die.Its harsh,but I want them to coexist on paper at least.
On September 01 2010 10:17 PulseNova wrote: I hope KeSPA dies in the ass. They claim to care about esports, however they show no interest in anything that isn't SCBW. Esports goes beyond SCBW. They claim to be a players association, however at no stage have they ever considered the best interests of the players, nor have they operated in the best interests of the players.
Blizzard fucked KeSPA up, then transferred the rights to Gretech with the intent of letting them finish KeSPA off for them.
Bottom line: KeSPA will have learnt a lesson from trying to fuck with Blizzard. I'm so glad those c*nts got ruined and I can't wait for them to stupidly start their Proleague only to get sued by Gretech and lose horribly. Fuck you KeSPA.
HELLO?! I rarely post in these forums at all, only 'lurking' for the BW VoD's and such. I have read up on the history of Kespa, and while I neither love nor hate them, Kespa is partially the reason why eSports have become so successful in South Korea. We must not forget Boxer's and other old progamers' contributions too.
Now, I am just saying from a neutral viewpoint: Blizzard is being quite the f*ck-sh*t here (yes, that is not even a word, but I just HATE them). Ever since they merged with Activision (and all this BOBBY KOTICK bullsh*t), they have become even more greedy at exponential rates.
I have NEVER played BW and SC2. I am merely a passionate fan of the BW proscene in SK. I have watched most finals up to now. If Blizzard ruins Kespa, not only BW but the SC2 proscene will die out in SK as well. There is just too much love for BW for fans to accept its downfall, and if that EVEN happens, there will be a massive public backlash against SC2 too.
Blizzard is being quite the idiotic dictator it is. If it did all this because of public IP rights, why did it not start on this YEARS ago when BW became popular in SK? Yes, figure it out; the Activision merger made them greedy. Stupid Bobby Kotick (I really hate him, yes, I do)!
Not to be a hater on SC2, but I really hope that powerhouses like flash and jaedong don't switch to SC2. TBH I think they would be wasting their talents, buts that's just my opinion.
As for the Kespa Blizz/Gretech problem at hand, Gretech needs to quit pushing the limit of their power. Kespa will eventually pay for the IP, but forcing them to advertise for their competitor is just plain retarded, Gretech is just being unreasonable. I know Kespa is stingy, but I think they will bite the bullet as far as paying for the IP rights. What Gretech is asking for is for BroodWar to give SC2 a handicap, so that they can fairly compete, which I believe is just plain ludicrous.
KeSPA is established in 2000 under the authority of Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism. It aims to protect professional gamers and pro-game teams, and to make e-sports as a sound new leisure activity, representing Korea's next generation. KeSPA is made up of 11 executive committee member-enterprises including SK Telecom. SK Telecom has been served as the Chief Executive since 2008. Under the leadership of Mr Seo Jin-woo, the head of SK Telecom GMS as well as the Chief Executive of KeSPA, executive committee members and the secretariat play a vital role in the promotion of e-Sports at home and abroad.
On September 01 2010 10:17 PulseNova wrote: I hope KeSPA dies in the ass. They claim to care about esports, however they show no interest in anything that isn't SCBW. Esports goes beyond SCBW. They claim to be a players association, however at no stage have they ever considered the best interests of the players, nor have they operated in the best interests of the players.
Blizzard fucked KeSPA up, then transferred the rights to Gretech with the intent of letting them finish KeSPA off for them.
Bottom line: KeSPA will have learnt a lesson from trying to fuck with Blizzard. I'm so glad those c*nts got ruined and I can't wait for them to stupidly start their Proleague only to get sued by Gretech and lose horribly. Fuck you KeSPA.
Stop swearing. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about and what is this about. Try educating yourself a but before you post anything and keep your hate away from here.
And you're posting that you hope that BW will die in the BW forum?
Kespa and the proleague teams might as well be dead for the SC franchise.
Even if they do come out with an agreement, they will no longer be the dominant host for SC tournaments. If they are no longer the dominant host, they will lack the money to support the proleague teams and the teams will have to start cutting back on their players or even disbanding.
For pro-gaming to be successful you need to have a dictator that manages a uniform ladder, ranking and tournament, otherwise, you get so many mini-leagues and tournaments that doesn't seem to hold any values in the audience eyes. Kespa used to be this evil dictator, and they are being oust by Blizzard and Gretech. Gretech will be new dictator with Blizzard pulling the strings in the back.
Possible outcomes: 1. Kespa sells the 12 proleague team contracts to Gretech to handle then call it quits. 2. Kespa gets Gretech's license and run their own 'proleague' tournaments, which will consequently diminish the 12 team's quality due to proleague no longer the dominate competition. 3. Kespa does not get Gretech's license and disbands the 12 teams. 4. Gretech acquires Kespa.
With Kespa's experience with running tournaments, the best case scenario would be for Gretech to acquire Kespa along with the teams' contracts. However, seeing how they are both negotiating like kids, it is doubtful they will come to this scenario. The second best option, is for kespa to simply sell Gretech the contracts for the survival of the proleague teams. Any other outcomes will toll the teams and leading to eventual disband.
KeSPA, while explaining the background behind why they started considering force starting the 2010~2011 Proleague, claimed that Gretech has refused to sign off on Proleague.
We know that KeSPA has met with Gretech 4 times, and said that it was impossible to reimburse Gretech regarding Proleague, and the negotiations ended there.
However, there are some new information that came into light. KeSPA has revealed that they would like to pay for intellectual property rights, and that Gretech has refused this, and claimed that Gretech has refused to sign off on the Proleague because of GSL.
One person who has participated in the negotiations, has said that "KeSPA, from the very beginning, has shown willingness to reimburse intellectual property fees for the Proleague", adding that "While they do have an income from broadcasting rights of the Proleague, but because this is all used to operate the Proleague, they might as well not have any income", and said that they have shown all related budget accounts. Continuing, they have asked Gretech "Even though Proleague does not have any real profits, we will pay intellectual property fees, so how much does Gretech want?"
However, Gretech, starting with the beginning of the 4th negotiation, has said that "We cannot sign off on the Proleague, since it will compete with the GSL", and KeSPA reacted saying that "If you refuse to sign off on the Proleague, that's like saying we shouldn't be negotiating". Continuing, Gretech, rather than talking about intellectual property fees, has demanded "Reimbursement for the GSL", and KeSPA has rejected the guidelines set by Gretech.
The person added that "Since this is an NDA, we cannot reveal everything about the negotiations, but there are a lot of people are using wrong information and is reading the situation wrong", and said that "I really want to reveal everything about the negotiations and be judged on who is making the wrong judgments here"
On September 01 2010 12:36 Milkis wrote: However, Gretech, starting with the beginning of the 4th negotiation, has said that "We cannot sign off on the Proleague, since it will compete with the GSL"
KeSPA, while explaining the background behind why they started considering force starting the 2010~2011 Proleague, claimed that Gretech has refused to sign off on Proleague.
We know that KeSPA has met with Gretech 4 times, and said that it was impossible to reimburse Gretech regarding Proleague, and the negotiations ended there.
However, there are some new information that came into light. KeSPA has revealed that they would like to pay for intellectual property rights, and that Gretech has refused this, and claimed that Gretech has refused to sign off on the Proleague because of GSL.
One person who has participated in the negotiations, has said that "KeSPA, from the very beginning, has shown willingness to reimburse intellectual property fees for the Proleague", adding that "While they do have an income from broadcasting rights of the Proleague, but because this is all used to operate the Proleague, they might as well not have any income", and said that they have shown all related budget accounts. Continuing, they have asked Gretech "Even though Proleague does not have any real profits, we will pay intellectual property fees, so how much does Gretech want?"
However, Gretech, starting with the beginning of the 4th negotiation, has said that "We cannot sign off on the Proleague, since it will compete with the GSL", and KeSPA reacted saying that "If you refuse to sign off on the Proleague, that's like saying we shouldn't be negotiating". Continuing, Gretech, rather than talking about intellectual property fees, has demanded "Reimbursement for the GSL", and KeSPA has rejected the guidelines set by Gretech.
The person added that "Since this is an NDA, we cannot reveal everything about the negotiations, but there are a lot of people are using wrong information and is reading the situation wrong", and said that "I really want to reveal everything about the negotiations and be judged on who is making the wrong judgments here"
I wonder how the sc2 guys are going to try and twist this into kespa being the debbil now lol.
SEE, SC2 guys?! Gretech, under the arm of Blizzard, is trying to sweep BW under the rug. What ever happened to noble intentions of letting both games run at the same time? This is such a cowardly move by Gretech, and Blizzard. Stupid idiots!
Fuck Gretech. People who think SC2 is the dominating force in E-sports are highly mistaken. Nobody gives a fuck about SC2 in Korea right now. Sorry but its true. Most pc bangs are devoid of people playing SC2 and instead many more people still play BW over SC2. This will NOT change until the pro teams switch over to SC2. This is unlikely anytime in the near future because teams would have to start from scratch with a brand new game. They wouldnt be profitable for quite a long time till SC2 becomes firmly established with proper sponsors and infrastructure. Its obvious Gretech feels threatened and knows it cant become profitable until the current proleague is gone and switched over to SC2. How can you blame the pro teams/kespa for not wanting to switch over, lose money, and destroy a proven system that works for them for some shitty GSL? Most people in Korea dont even fucking care or know about the GSL.
Wow Gretech, I can't believe this. They're basically saying FU to KeSPA for running the proleague. There is no way that proleague will not cause harm to the GSL, and they don't even want money from KeSPA...since KeSPA offered to pay them. Gretech is raping KeSPA, literally. Shoving an SC2 down their ass without consent... lol
This thread is meant to inform about an issue, not provide a venue for posters to spew venom. Try to discuss the issue without rape analogies or gratuitous profanity please.
And also, for the love of god, if you are not up to date on the whole situation, don't post and go read about it. So many messages here are ignorant of the whole situation.
Gretech has said "If KeSPA rejects negotiations related to monetary payments, then from an industry operation viewpoint, let us know how you will reimburse Gretech", and "Since there may be a lot of noise if we reveal the amount of monetary payment we want and may look like we're forcing the amount, let us know if you have a monetary payment in mind".
However, there are some new information that came into light. KeSPA has revealed that they would like to pay for intellectual property rights, and that Gretech has refused this, and claimed that Gretech has refused to sign off on the Proleague because of GSL.
Its always like this, each sides has its own stories and the truth has to be somewhere in the middle.
...Even though Proleague does not have any real profits...
Karmic for Kespa boycotting GSL but I don't think the proteams or the players should suffer for Gretech's sense of vengeance and greed. They're destroying the infrastructure that, if it didn't exist, would make SC2 "progaming" a joke.
Both sides contributed in some way to the epic retardness of the situation. The progamers are the ones most hurt by this situation really, and further the fans, for having the future of this up in the air as it is.
This does make Gretech look pretty bad, but the problem is that the negotiations are still under NDA. This could easily be someone spinning this one way or the other. I think it would do everyone good to wait and see exactly what is going on before jumping to conclusions.Then again, it is the internet, so no chance of that happening.
...Even though Proleague does not have any real profits...
lol wtf does that even mean, so vague.
All of Kespa's profits, from Broadcasting Rights, go to supporting and paying for Proleague. Very little money is left over so thats why there isn't any "real profit"
so uh its been 12 years now since starcraft's release do people really see this lasting much longer.... really?
I mean at this point BW is stagnant it is contributing zero new players outside of the handfull of Koreans who will pick it up; for BW to continue new generations will have to want to play it and having a 12 year old game be the pinnacle of e-sports is pushing it.
On September 01 2010 13:03 Onisparda wrote: Its always like this, each sides has its own stories and the truth has to be somewhere in the middle.
...Even though Proleague does not have any real profits...
lol wtf does that even mean, so vague.
All of Kespa's profits, from Broadcasting Rights, go to supporting and paying for Proleague. Very little money is left over so thats why there isn't any "real profit"
Profit is profit, they could have said that they dont make a lot of profit instead. A lot less ambiguous. Trivial matter cuz the meaning could have been lost in translation. To me that sounds like they are trying to appear to be non-profit but don't want to lie about it.
Okay, so it looks like Gretech is in the business of crowding out competition by raising the barrier to entry (charging "GSL reimbursement fees" because Proleague conflicts with GSL).
Now that's just greedy and anti-competitive behavior that I really can't justify.
It's very difficult to read this and not get the impression that Gretech is moving to specifically stop the PL from happening. People can get all uppity over the history between all of the entities here, but it's mostly just banter. The reality is that Gretech wants either a bunch of money as some sort of competition fee, or alternate means of 'reimbursement' - which we can only assume is something like free advertising for the GSL all over the place.
What's literally insane is that this is happening after OGN has already done a deal for this OSL, and after even KeSPA has said they're willing to pay for IP rights. It's becoming harder and harder to paint Gretech/Blizzard as the good guys here, and the fact that they're actively working to phase out BW and phase in SC2 is becoming even more obvious.
On September 01 2010 13:03 Onisparda wrote: Its always like this, each sides has its own stories and the truth has to be somewhere in the middle.
...Even though Proleague does not have any real profits...
lol wtf does that even mean, so vague.
All of Kespa's profits, from Broadcasting Rights, go to supporting and paying for Proleague. Very little money is left over so thats why there isn't any "real profit"
Profit is profit, they could have said that they dont make a lot of profit instead. A lot less ambiguous. Trivial matter cuz the meaning could have been lost in translation. To me that sounds like they are trying to appear to be non-profit but don't want to lie about it.
Kespa is non-profit. It is probably ambiguous because it's an unofficial translation from the Korean article.
On September 01 2010 13:10 DonKey_ wrote: so uh its been 12 years now since starcraft's release do people really see this lasting much longer.... really?
I mean at this point BW is stagnant it is contributing zero new players outside of the handfull of Koreans who will pick it up; for BW to continue new generations will have to want to play it and having a 12 year old game be the pinnacle of e-sports is pushing it.
Excuse me? "BW is stagnant"? "...having a 12 year old game be the pinnacle of e-sports is pushing it"?
What rock have you been living under? BW was and ALWAYS will be the pinnacle of e-sports for a long time to come. Nowhere else in the world have we seen a more successful proleague (two for that matter). We are talking full-time progamers, paid full-time on a salary basis. Even then, the quality of the televised matches are unmatched; have you even watched the old days of Boxer, Nada, iloveoov and Savior? The reason why BW has lasted this long is because of the success of Kespa (no matter its shortcomings) and the devotion of its fans.
I don't think BW will die out anytime soon, that is, UNLESS Blizzard continues to push this issue even further. I really despise their attitude in this, but I do not want to keep on swearing for now.
wait I don't really understand since it sounds vauge to me.Does this mean that Pro-league is a no go?Is there any negotiating of this?I mean PL has to survive if there is any chance of SC2 surviving.
I just hope it will go to Korean court and they will say that Blizzard has no rights to tell who, how, and for how much money is playing or broadcasting their game. Can someone from Korea comment if there is chance for that ?
On September 01 2010 14:13 sAAvior wrote: I just hope it will go to Korean court and they will say that Blizzard has no rights to tell who, how, and for how much money is playing or broadcasting their game. Can someone from Korea comment if there is chance for that ?
Not being a lawyer, I can't predict much about a hypothetical trial.
But my line of thinking is: If KeSPA thought they would win in court, wouldn't they have taken it to trial a looong time ago? It seems like going to trial has been their last and most undesirable option, if you look at how they've gone through every other method possible.
"Since this is an NDA, we cannot reveal everything about the negotiations, but there are a lot of people are using wrong information and is reading the situation wrong"
On August 31 2010 23:42 Milkis wrote: However, Gretech, starting with the beginning of the 4th negotiation, has said that "We cannot sign off on the Proleague, since it will compete with the GSL", and KeSPA reacted saying that "If you refuse to sign off on the Proleague, that's like saying we shouldn't be negotiating". Continuing, Gretech, rather than talking about intellectual property fees, has demanded "Reimbursement for the GSL", and KeSPA has rejected the guidelines set by Gretech.
This is just disgusting, fuck I hate blizzard/gom right now. Just sheer greed, SC2 is not ready to carry esports on its shoulders alone. Fucking scum. The GSL is not even going to have that much content and people can always watch both....
This is starting to look like the political situation in Belgium, going nowhere fast...
Our government is also negotiating between 2 sides, also about for about the 4th time now. Experience tells me, when everyone is silent, they are still making progress. But when information starts leaking out, it's only a few days before everything starts exploding...
With the latest update, assuming it's true, we can definitely point the finger at the party in the wrong in this dispute. By which I mean gretech of course. Do they really need to try to crush proleague to promote GSL? Are they that insecure in the probability of success for SCII?
On September 01 2010 13:24 cocoa_sg wrote: What rock have you been living under? BW was and ALWAYS will be the pinnacle of e-sports for a long time to come. Nowhere else in the world have we seen a more successful proleague (two for that matter). We are talking full-time progamers, paid full-time on a salary basis. Even then, the quality of the televised matches are unmatched; have you even watched the old days of Boxer, Nada, iloveoov and Savior? The reason why BW has lasted this long is because of the success of Kespa (no matter its shortcomings) and the devotion of its fans.
I don't think BW will die out anytime soon, that is, UNLESS Blizzard continues to push this issue even further. I really despise their attitude in this, but I do not want to keep on swearing for now.
Agreed with this post.
We probably don't have half the data but this is getting borderline ridiculous. It sounds like they really want to kill off the #1 success esport event in the world just out of greediness.
Would love to hear what the netizen think of this, as well as people involved in progaming (team managers, players, current proteam sponsors, casters).
gretch: pay me money kespa: ok i will pay u to run proleague, how much u want? gretch: no. dont pay us money we dont want u to run proleague kespa: ....
On September 01 2010 13:10 DonKey_ wrote: so uh its been 12 years now since starcraft's release do people really see this lasting much longer.... really?
I mean at this point BW is stagnant it is contributing zero new players outside of the handfull of Koreans who will pick it up; for BW to continue new generations will have to want to play it and having a 12 year old game be the pinnacle of e-sports is pushing it.
Did you watch the MSL finals? Did you? Point to a single match in SC2 that even begins to compare to the excitement in that matchup.
On September 01 2010 15:13 Taku wrote: With the latest update, assuming it's true, we can definitely point the finger at the party in the wrong in this dispute. By which I mean gretech of course. Do they really need to try to crush proleague to promote GSL? Are they that insecure in the probability of success for SCII?
well its more I think that if both are broadcasted at the same time it will cause conflicts. And right now bw would get picked over sc2 due to how new the game is.
But really I see pro's and cons on both sides. I can't take either.
Please keep in mind that these are statements from a KeSPA press conference, and that the story is always different depending on who is telling it. If Gretech cares to speak out on the issue in the future, please try and weigh the different stances against each other.
On September 01 2010 15:22 Philar wrote: gretch: pay me money kespa: ok i will pay u to run proleague, how much u want? gretch: no. dont pay us money we dont want u to run proleague kespa: ....
Yes, this is an accurate analogy of what is happening right now. [/sarcasm]
All we have is a bunch of hearsay from a party who is probably on Kespa's side. If Blizzard and GOMTV didn't want this to work, then they wouldn't be negotiating with Kespa, would they?
At Best Kespa will hurt blizzard in korea some and at worst the disband a profitable proleague for nothing and Sc2 goes on in korea without a beat.
Exactly, Kespa's attitude of our way or we will have a temper tantrum and disband the pro-league is just stupid.
GET A CLUE.
If Gretech forces KeSPA to shut down Proleague, there's no reason for any progaming teams to operate. Why on earth would they keep sustaining them? This is not charity... ProLeague is THE marketing tool those corporate sponsors as far as esports go.
It's ridiculous how Gretech feels threatened by ProLeague because they're (KeSPA) are using a superior spectator game, with superior infrastructure and organization.
I dont think that they are being threatened by a "superior spectator game". They are just afraid that KeSPA would again force the teams and its players to boycott a Gretech run league, just like what KeSPA did with the GSL.
KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition?
KeSPA already has.
With that said, I dont see how anyone can be defending KeSPA. If they were really behind ESports, they would not be trying to make sure that BW is the ONLY significant ESport around. Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed.
Given that both KeSPA and the Proleague have grown over the years, it is fundamentally impossible for KeSPA to be non-profit. This much is a lie anyone with a remote sense of business mechanics can see. Likely, since license fees would be based on profit earned from the use of the license + base fee (this is typical), they are and have been (thus why talks with Bliz died) lying about their profits. If we recall, Bliz got in a fight with them not opening their books (to prove profit / non-profit), if they really are non-profit opening their books would have been very easy and a review thereof, very welcome.
KeSPA is and has been exploiting the BW IP for profit and they know they cannot do the same for SC2. Their irrelevance... they know it and wish to live. I can understand what they are doing, but at the same time it endangers everything.
On September 01 2010 16:34 Vedic wrote: Hilarious - Gretech now doing to KeSPA what KeSPA tried to do to Gom during the last intel classic!
How does it feel to be on the receiving end, KeSPA?
but the cost of KeSPA's loss is too high.We might lose all of Pro-BW if things go badly.
Hey, they could have negotiated this deal with Blizzard a long time ago, but complained about the costs. Now, they even say that they don't care how much it will cost, and that they're willing to pay - so the real problem before was just that they were power hungry.
Losing KeSPA is a SMALL price to pay for even a chance that Starcraft in all forms will be supported internationally.
Since when did SC2 become such a successful esport that we conclude that Kespa "not caring about SC2" means that they "don't care about esports"?
When SC2 "progamers" can earn a stable salary regardless of performance in tournaments, then SC2 can begin to be considered a successful esport. Taking a day or two off work/school to practice for a SC2 tournament (whose entire viewership is limited to other people that play the game) doesn't earn you the right to call yourself a progamer.
Wait for what? The entire scene to be go backwards in time and maybe even fizzle out as if the phenemonen never existed?
Whatever bullshit Blizzard/Gretech is pulling for whatever reasons, is making the entire scene unstable. It won't be easy to persuade sponors to keep investing in the scene that is plagued with uncertainty, legal troubles and bad publicity overall. Not to mention the players themselves won't be able to showcast all their skills now they have their own livelihood to worry about.
I can see no good coming out of this, and since when did any of you care about the intellectual rights of a company that hardly is a victim of the idea that their game is the only product that manages to keep an entire industry consisting of numerous broadcasting companies, corporate sponsors, internet sites, alive. The industy was alive because we watched through the good times and the bad. Supported the players. Skipped classes to watch our favourite players live. Spent hours on numerous internet communities discussing the more important issues going on in the scene. It was the people's interest in the scene that allowed the scene to grow. And now Blizzard/Gretech wants to take all that away.
You can justify that all you want. I say it's total fucking bullshit. Blizzard didn't the scene. They shouldn't be able to hold us all at a gun point just because they made the game. It was the players. The teams that paid them. The broadcasters who employed professional observers, map-makers, casters and commentators. The fans who stood by their players and teams, the fans who got the broadcasting companies the necessary raitings. The fans who got the internet sites to stay alive with their non-stop activity within it.
Many of us, in one small way or the other. Made this entire thing happen. E-Sports wouldn't ahve existed without Blizzard? Fuck that. It wouldn't have existed without a lot of things clicking just right. Why the fuck would anybody empathize Blizzard's needs to disregard all the blood, sweat and tears devoted to get E-Sports to the point it is at now, for whatever the fuck it is that they feel we as a community owe to them for making such a great fucking game. I thought the debt was over the moment I paid for the game. But no. They feel I must bow down and suck on their crotch everytime I want to enjoy the by-products of their game. Apparently I can't enjoy shit without having to grovel for their permission and paying them money EVERY FUCKING TIME I WANT TO WATCH IT ON TELEVISION.
Don't you get it? We're the customers. We sustained the scene with our interest, which the corporate sponsors deemed enough in return for the pleasure of watching this amazing thing that is not available anywhere else. Now Blizzard comes barging in and starts to make demands that is way over-board both in terms of control and fincially speaking. They're not just fucking with Kespa here. They are FUCKING WITH YOU. STOP BEING HAPPY THAT YOU'RE BEING VIOLATED ANALLY BY A BUNCH OF MONEY HUNGRY FUCKHEADS.
Blizzard is essentially saying you can't fucking enjoy E-Sports without us getting our pockets full. Want to play our game? Pay us. Want to play our game on television. Pay us. Want to watch our game on television. FUCKING PAY US.
What part the E-Sports scene in Korea being threatened, Blizzard's message that what we do with their products will never be legally viable without their permission, and all the work we as a community have put in, no matter how small or insignificant in the grand scope of things, being PISSED ON by those fuckers. Why are some retards here celebrating the presence of a dictatorship on something that was not perfect, but relatively free from all this bullshit that has nothing to do with the beauty of the industry? Why are these mindless drones essentially mumbling: "OH CREATOR OF STARCRAFT WE BOW DOWN TO THEE AND WE ALL GLAD TO MEET YOUR INCESSANT NEED FOR MORE MONEY AND POWER. FUCK KESPA AND FUCK BROOD WARS. WE WILL PAY ALL THE CASH. WE WILL PAY ALL THE INTELLECTUAL RIGHTS EVERY TIME WE PLAY YOUR GAME COMPETITIVELY."
I say fuck that. And fuck you if you think we owe Blizzard a cent for something they hardly touched on all these years and have benefitted greatly from. It's the ultimate betrayal, and you have some serious issues of sadomasochism if you are greatly interested in making Blizzard richer even if it means having to sacrifice on your part.
On September 01 2010 17:01 sk` wrote: Given that both KeSPA and the Proleague have grown over the years, it is fundamentally impossible for KeSPA to be non-profit. This much is a lie anyone with a remote sense of business mechanics can see. Likely, since license fees would be based on profit earned from the use of the license + base fee (this is typical), they are and have been (thus why talks with Bliz died) lying about their profits. If we recall, Bliz got in a fight with them not opening their books (to prove profit / non-profit), if they really are non-profit opening their books would have been very easy and a review thereof, very welcome.
KeSPA is and has been exploiting the BW IP for profit and they know they cannot do the same for SC2. Their irrelevance... they know it and wish to live. I can understand what they are doing, but at the same time it endangers everything.
Proleague hasn't grown over the years infact it's got smaller... even if it had grown why would that equal any more profit unless you have proof that sponsors are paying more now than before? Which i think is unlikely considering less spectators compared to the peak.
On August 31 2010 23:53 Nesto wrote: what the hell...
Gretech... you think GSL would survive if you forcibly stop the proleague and force the disbanding of the proleague teams? imagine the outrage..
and for Kespa... simply fuck off... it just seems they only care about the money they make with SCBW and want to make sure, that they don't have any competition from GSL / SC2...
kespa is nonprofit. Kespa is probably saying "fuck you" to sc2 cause they have emotional issues against Blizzard.
I think you miss the point.
Blizzard has decided that they would control via ridiculously hard contract on IP the pro-scene, which Kespa has refused.
Now they will try to
1- Kill Kespa. 2- Kill Brood War.
There is nothing emotional here. Gretech / Blizzard won't let Kespa take care of SC2. And I suspect that Kespa knows very well that SC2 doesn't have at all the potential to be a succesfull e-sport for more than a couple of years since it's damn boring to watch (someone who doesnn't know BW can enkoy very quickly, someone who doesn't know SC2 sees blob of units you can't distinguish clashing afetr 20 minutes).
It's sad how awful Blizzard has turned. It's a caricature of the big corporation who don't give a shit about anything but making a lot of money, right now.
I know all arguments of those, who believes that Activision Blizzard is right here. I can even confess that i think that Blizzard's corrupted succesor Active Lizzard should be given some prophits from Korean Leagues, as they are owner of IP from SC franchise. But i can assure you one thing... ...if there was even hypotetical possibility that KESPA or any other big organisation in Korea would say "fuck that shit, screw SC, lets find something else", start to promoting other mark (some Relic games for example) and made that popular, competetive e-sports, Active Lizzard would suddenly cease all of there claims and started to smiling even to fucking KESPA.
On September 01 2010 02:28 Lokian wrote: Hate more please. :rolleyes:
oh, Blizzard doesn't care about BW. Really? What can they do when they're just going to get boycotted.
Great logic there.
And now they're trying SC2. Kespa, what the heck happened to 'for the fans' reaction. I don't see Blizzard/Gretech in any wrong. Kespa had too many chances.
Isn't it like... Gretech is trying to have Proleague and GSL together. By just changing Kespa's Schedule, wouldn't that fix that? But Kespa won't conform? Seems to me like a temper tantrum.
Why the fuck would OGN/MBC change their ProLeague time slots just because Gretech demands them to because they know GSL can't compete with PL? How ridiculous is that? T___T
Cause then otherwise Gretech won't let them play/broadcast the league? Who the fuck picks nothing over something? How ridiculous is that? T__T
"Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV. If Gretech is like this, then there isn't any more point of negotiations".
I think this is just a hypothetical situation. Even if they paid to broadcast BW, but would still be required to schedule around GSL, which they don't want to do.
Scheduling around GSL is the least of the issues on the table. It was about Blizzard demanding ridiculous power over KeSPA and the BW scene in korea (in addition to usage fees from team sponsors, league sponsors and rights for proleague). Being able to have the final say over player contracts and leagues, having the power to cancel and reschedule events, deny sponsors, priority over player schedules for Blizzard's own events, audit KeSPA's finances, only giving them contracts in 1 year increments (which could then be discontinued the following year), etc.
Wrong, because blizz has nothing to do with this. Blizz has a contract with Gretech, and gretech can sub licence out to the others. You are thinking about the Blizz//Kespa negotiations that happened ages ago.
It's funny because Kespa releases a statement and people believe it as gospel truth, even though they are 1) breaking an NDA 2) have lied very recently in the past while 3) doing the exact same thing.
Remember during the blizz negotiations when Kespa started talking about them, breaking NDA? When they said they were doing such and such and had never had a contract or anything with blizzard and it turned out they did? Fucking liars going at it again just to make themselves look good. Then look at the people eating it up.
Gretech: Okay guys, you need a licence to broadcast / run PL. We can take $xxxxx Kespa: No F U, we don't have the money for that! Gretech: Okay fine, but we arn't going to sublet a licence we paid money for for free. How else can you compensate us? Maybe just promise to show PL at a time when we arn't running GSL? Kespa: No, we will do whatever we want.
*kespa runs to media* Kespa: Look, we offered to pay them but they said they did not want any money and we couldn't run PL!
Wait for what? The entire scene to be go backwards in time and maybe even fizzle out as if the phenemonen never existed?
Whatever bullshit Blizzard/Gretech is pulling for whatever reasons, is making the entire scene unstable. It won't be easy to persuade sponors to keep investing in the scene that is plagued with uncertainty, legal troubles and bad publicity overall. Not to mention the players themselves won't be able to showcast all their skills now they have their own livelihood to worry about.
I can see no good coming out of this, and since when did any of you care about the intellectual rights of a company that hardly is a victim of the idea that their game is the only product that manages to keep an entire industry consisting of numerous broadcasting companies, corporate sponsors, internet sites, alive. The industy was alive because we watched through the good times and the bad. Supported the players. Skipped classes to watch our favourite players live. Spent hours on numerous internet communities discussing the more important issues going on in the scene. It was the people's interest in the scene that allowed the scene to grow. And now Blizzard/Gretech wants to take all that away.
You can justify that all you want. I say it's total fucking bullshit. Blizzard didn't the scene. They shouldn't be able to hold us all at a gun point just because they made the game. It was the players. The teams that paid them. The broadcasters who employed professional observers, map-makers, casters and commentators. The fans who stood by their players and teams, the fans who got the broadcasting companies the necessary raitings. The fans who got the internet sites to stay alive with their non-stop activity within it.
Many of us, in one small way or the other. Made this entire thing happen. E-Sports wouldn't ahve existed without Blizzard? Fuck that. It wouldn't have existed without a lot of things clicking just right. Why the fuck would anybody empathize Blizzard's needs to disregard all the blood, sweat and tears devoted to get E-Sports to the point it is at now, for whatever the fuck it is that they feel we as a community owe to them for making such a great fucking game. I thought the debt was over the moment I paid for the game. But no. They feel I must bow down and suck on their crotch everytime I want to enjoy the by-products of their game. Apparently I can't enjoy shit without having to grovel for their permission and paying them money EVERY FUCKING TIME I WANT TO WATCH IT ON TELEVISION.
Don't you get it? We're the customers. We sustained the scene with our interest, which the corporate sponsors deemed enough in return for the pleasure of watching this amazing thing that is not available anywhere else. Now Blizzard comes barging in and starts to make demands that is way over-board both in terms of control and fincially speaking. They're not just fucking with Kespa here. They are FUCKING WITH YOU. STOP BEING HAPPY THAT YOU'RE BEING VIOLATED ANALLY BY A BUNCH OF MONEY HUNGRY FUCKHEADS.
Blizzard is essentially saying you can't fucking enjoy E-Sports without us getting our pockets full. Want to play our game? Pay us. Want to play our game on television. Pay us. Want to watch our game on television. FUCKING PAY US.
What part the E-Sports scene in Korea being threatened, Blizzard's message that what we do with their products will never be legally viable without their permission, and all the work we as a community have put in, no matter how small or insignificant in the grand scope of things, being PISSED ON by those fuckers. Why are some retards here celebrating the presence of a dictatorship on something that was not perfect, but relatively free from all this bullshit that has nothing to do with the beauty of the industry? Why are these mindless drones essentially mumbling: "OH CREATOR OF STARCRAFT WE BOW DOWN TO THEE AND WE ALL GLAD TO MEET YOUR INCESSANT NEED FOR MORE MONEY AND POWER. FUCK KESPA AND FUCK BROOD WARS. WE WILL PAY ALL THE CASH. WE WILL PAY ALL THE INTELLECTUAL RIGHTS EVERY TIME WE PLAY YOUR GAME COMPETITIVELY."
I say fuck that. And fuck you if you think we owe Blizzard a cent for something they hardly touched on all these years and have benefitted greatly from. It's the ultimate betrayal, and you have some serious issues of sadomasochism if you are greatly interested in making Blizzard richer even if it means having to sacrifice on your part.
This is what I've been trying to say the whole time ever since the first Kespa vs Blizzard problem has popped up. All I can say is that I completely agree with you. It's sad to see that people are still mindlessly supporting blizzard when the axe is hanging over their heads. And to the idiot SC2 players who want BW to die: your day will come too.
At Best Kespa will hurt blizzard in korea some and at worst the disband a profitable proleague for nothing and Sc2 goes on in korea without a beat.
Exactly, Kespa's attitude of our way or we will have a temper tantrum and disband the pro-league is just stupid.
GET A CLUE.
If Gretech forces KeSPA to shut down Proleague, there's no reason for any progaming teams to operate. Why on earth would they keep sustaining them? This is not charity... ProLeague is THE marketing tool those corporate sponsors as far as esports go.
It's ridiculous how Gretech feels threatened by ProLeague because they're (KeSPA) are using a superior spectator game, with superior infrastructure and organization.
I dont think that they are being threatened by a "superior spectator game". They are just afraid that KeSPA would again force the teams and its players to boycott a Gretech run league, just like what KeSPA did with the GSL.
KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition?
KeSPA already has.
With that said, I dont see how anyone can be defending KeSPA. If they were really behind ESports, they would not be trying to make sure that BW is the ONLY significant ESport around. Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed.
Is your reading comprehension really that bad?
Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?!
Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense.
"Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed."
EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been?
However, Gretech, starting with the beginning of the 4th negotiation, has said that "We cannot sign off on the Proleague, since it will compete with the GSL", and KeSPA reacted saying that "If you refuse to sign off on the Proleague, that's like saying we shouldn't be negotiating". Continuing, Gretech, rather than talking about intellectual property fees, has demanded "Reimbursement for the GSL", and KeSPA has rejected the guidelines set by Gretech.
If this is true, Gretech is essentially saying "fuck you, we'll only negotiate if you pay for our starleague lol", which doesn't bode well.
If this kills proleague and broodwar I'm going to be pretty upset.
On September 01 2010 17:39 dogabutila wrote: Wrong, because blizz has nothing to do with this. Blizz has a contract with Gretech, and gretech can sub licence out to the others. You are thinking about the Blizz//Kespa negotiations that happened ages ago.
If you honestly think that Gretech is the ones deciding everything, like what fees to charge, what schedules to demand, etc, and that Blizzard is quietly sitting across the ocean minding their own business I have a bridge to sell you.
I can't be convinced of everything until I hear both sides of the story.What we read here is KeSPA's side,until I hear what Gretech has to say I am not convinced that pro-league will be stopped and that BW will come to an end.
On September 01 2010 17:11 Cowazon wrote: Since when did SC2 become such a successful esport that we conclude that Kespa "not caring about SC2" means that they "don't care about esports"?
When SC2 "progamers" can earn a stable salary regardless of performance in tournaments, then SC2 can begin to be considered a successful esport. Taking a day or two off work/school to practice for a SC2 tournament (whose entire viewership is limited to other people that play the game) doesn't earn you the right to call yourself a progamer.
SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed.
At Best Kespa will hurt blizzard in korea some and at worst the disband a profitable proleague for nothing and Sc2 goes on in korea without a beat.
Exactly, Kespa's attitude of our way or we will have a temper tantrum and disband the pro-league is just stupid.
GET A CLUE.
If Gretech forces KeSPA to shut down Proleague, there's no reason for any progaming teams to operate. Why on earth would they keep sustaining them? This is not charity... ProLeague is THE marketing tool those corporate sponsors as far as esports go.
It's ridiculous how Gretech feels threatened by ProLeague because they're (KeSPA) are using a superior spectator game, with superior infrastructure and organization.
I dont think that they are being threatened by a "superior spectator game". They are just afraid that KeSPA would again force the teams and its players to boycott a Gretech run league, just like what KeSPA did with the GSL.
KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition?
KeSPA already has.
With that said, I dont see how anyone can be defending KeSPA. If they were really behind ESports, they would not be trying to make sure that BW is the ONLY significant ESport around. Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed.
Is your reading comprehension really that bad?
Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?!
Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense.
"Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed."
EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been?
On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA?
Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part...
KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV"
That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed.
It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP.
BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all.
Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless.
And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea.
Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up.
Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys".
The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words.
On September 01 2010 17:11 Cowazon wrote: Since when did SC2 become such a successful esport that we conclude that Kespa "not caring about SC2" means that they "don't care about esports"?
When SC2 "progamers" can earn a stable salary regardless of performance in tournaments, then SC2 can begin to be considered a successful esport. Taking a day or two off work/school to practice for a SC2 tournament (whose entire viewership is limited to other people that play the game) doesn't earn you the right to call yourself a progamer.
SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed.
At Best Kespa will hurt blizzard in korea some and at worst the disband a profitable proleague for nothing and Sc2 goes on in korea without a beat.
Exactly, Kespa's attitude of our way or we will have a temper tantrum and disband the pro-league is just stupid.
GET A CLUE.
If Gretech forces KeSPA to shut down Proleague, there's no reason for any progaming teams to operate. Why on earth would they keep sustaining them? This is not charity... ProLeague is THE marketing tool those corporate sponsors as far as esports go.
It's ridiculous how Gretech feels threatened by ProLeague because they're (KeSPA) are using a superior spectator game, with superior infrastructure and organization.
I dont think that they are being threatened by a "superior spectator game". They are just afraid that KeSPA would again force the teams and its players to boycott a Gretech run league, just like what KeSPA did with the GSL.
KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition?
KeSPA already has.
With that said, I dont see how anyone can be defending KeSPA. If they were really behind ESports, they would not be trying to make sure that BW is the ONLY significant ESport around. Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed.
Is your reading comprehension really that bad?
Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?!
Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense.
"Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed."
EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been?
On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA?
Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part...
KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV"
That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed.
It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP.
BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all.
Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless.
And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea.
Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up.
Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys".
The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words.
Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating.
This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to.
They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa.
It's funny because Kespa releases a statement and people believe it as gospel truth, even though they are 1) breaking an NDA 2) have lied very recently in the past while 3) doing the exact same thing.
On September 01 2010 17:11 Cowazon wrote: Since when did SC2 become such a successful esport that we conclude that Kespa "not caring about SC2" means that they "don't care about esports"?
When SC2 "progamers" can earn a stable salary regardless of performance in tournaments, then SC2 can begin to be considered a successful esport. Taking a day or two off work/school to practice for a SC2 tournament (whose entire viewership is limited to other people that play the game) doesn't earn you the right to call yourself a progamer.
SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed.
On September 01 2010 17:40 maybenexttime wrote:
On September 01 2010 16:47 Spyridon wrote:
On September 01 2010 00:55 maybenexttime wrote:
On September 01 2010 00:49 dyodyo wrote:
On September 01 2010 00:37 maybenexttime wrote:
On August 31 2010 23:53 Killmour wrote:
On August 31 2010 23:51 metaldragon wrote:
At Best Kespa will hurt blizzard in korea some and at worst the disband a profitable proleague for nothing and Sc2 goes on in korea without a beat.
Exactly, Kespa's attitude of our way or we will have a temper tantrum and disband the pro-league is just stupid.
GET A CLUE.
If Gretech forces KeSPA to shut down Proleague, there's no reason for any progaming teams to operate. Why on earth would they keep sustaining them? This is not charity... ProLeague is THE marketing tool those corporate sponsors as far as esports go.
It's ridiculous how Gretech feels threatened by ProLeague because they're (KeSPA) are using a superior spectator game, with superior infrastructure and organization.
I dont think that they are being threatened by a "superior spectator game". They are just afraid that KeSPA would again force the teams and its players to boycott a Gretech run league, just like what KeSPA did with the GSL.
KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition?
KeSPA already has.
With that said, I dont see how anyone can be defending KeSPA. If they were really behind ESports, they would not be trying to make sure that BW is the ONLY significant ESport around. Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed.
Is your reading comprehension really that bad?
Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?!
Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense.
"Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed."
EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been?
On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA?
Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part...
KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV"
That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed.
It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP.
BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all.
Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless.
And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea.
Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up.
Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys".
The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words.
Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating.
This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to.
They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa.
KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP.
KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want.
If they are not willing to make an acceptable agreement, that makes KeSPA the antagonist. Not Gretech or Blizzard.
On September 01 2010 17:11 Cowazon wrote: Since when did SC2 become such a successful esport that we conclude that Kespa "not caring about SC2" means that they "don't care about esports"?
When SC2 "progamers" can earn a stable salary regardless of performance in tournaments, then SC2 can begin to be considered a successful esport. Taking a day or two off work/school to practice for a SC2 tournament (whose entire viewership is limited to other people that play the game) doesn't earn you the right to call yourself a progamer.
SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed.
On September 01 2010 17:40 maybenexttime wrote:
On September 01 2010 16:47 Spyridon wrote:
On September 01 2010 00:55 maybenexttime wrote:
On September 01 2010 00:49 dyodyo wrote:
On September 01 2010 00:37 maybenexttime wrote:
On August 31 2010 23:53 Killmour wrote:
On August 31 2010 23:51 metaldragon wrote:
At Best Kespa will hurt blizzard in korea some and at worst the disband a profitable proleague for nothing and Sc2 goes on in korea without a beat.
Exactly, Kespa's attitude of our way or we will have a temper tantrum and disband the pro-league is just stupid.
GET A CLUE.
If Gretech forces KeSPA to shut down Proleague, there's no reason for any progaming teams to operate. Why on earth would they keep sustaining them? This is not charity... ProLeague is THE marketing tool those corporate sponsors as far as esports go.
It's ridiculous how Gretech feels threatened by ProLeague because they're (KeSPA) are using a superior spectator game, with superior infrastructure and organization.
I dont think that they are being threatened by a "superior spectator game". They are just afraid that KeSPA would again force the teams and its players to boycott a Gretech run league, just like what KeSPA did with the GSL.
KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition?
KeSPA already has.
With that said, I dont see how anyone can be defending KeSPA. If they were really behind ESports, they would not be trying to make sure that BW is the ONLY significant ESport around. Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed.
Is your reading comprehension really that bad?
Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?!
Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense.
"Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed."
EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been?
On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA?
Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part...
KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV"
That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed.
It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP.
BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all.
Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless.
And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea.
Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up.
Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys".
The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words.
Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating.
This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to.
They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa.
KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP.
KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want.
Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games?
On September 01 2010 17:11 Cowazon wrote: Since when did SC2 become such a successful esport that we conclude that Kespa "not caring about SC2" means that they "don't care about esports"?
When SC2 "progamers" can earn a stable salary regardless of performance in tournaments, then SC2 can begin to be considered a successful esport. Taking a day or two off work/school to practice for a SC2 tournament (whose entire viewership is limited to other people that play the game) doesn't earn you the right to call yourself a progamer.
SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed.
On September 01 2010 17:40 maybenexttime wrote:
On September 01 2010 16:47 Spyridon wrote:
On September 01 2010 00:55 maybenexttime wrote:
On September 01 2010 00:49 dyodyo wrote:
On September 01 2010 00:37 maybenexttime wrote:
On August 31 2010 23:53 Killmour wrote: [quote]
Exactly, Kespa's attitude of our way or we will have a temper tantrum and disband the pro-league is just stupid.
GET A CLUE.
If Gretech forces KeSPA to shut down Proleague, there's no reason for any progaming teams to operate. Why on earth would they keep sustaining them? This is not charity... ProLeague is THE marketing tool those corporate sponsors as far as esports go.
It's ridiculous how Gretech feels threatened by ProLeague because they're (KeSPA) are using a superior spectator game, with superior infrastructure and organization.
I dont think that they are being threatened by a "superior spectator game". They are just afraid that KeSPA would again force the teams and its players to boycott a Gretech run league, just like what KeSPA did with the GSL.
KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition?
KeSPA already has.
With that said, I dont see how anyone can be defending KeSPA. If they were really behind ESports, they would not be trying to make sure that BW is the ONLY significant ESport around. Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed.
Is your reading comprehension really that bad?
Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?!
Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense.
"Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed."
EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been?
On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA?
Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part...
KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV"
That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed.
It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP.
BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all.
Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless.
And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea.
Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up.
Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys".
The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words.
Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating.
This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to.
They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa.
KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP.
KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want.
Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games?
Well, it would be more like the world cup being the same weekend as the super bowl, which would not happen.
On September 01 2010 17:11 Cowazon wrote: Since when did SC2 become such a successful esport that we conclude that Kespa "not caring about SC2" means that they "don't care about esports"?
When SC2 "progamers" can earn a stable salary regardless of performance in tournaments, then SC2 can begin to be considered a successful esport. Taking a day or two off work/school to practice for a SC2 tournament (whose entire viewership is limited to other people that play the game) doesn't earn you the right to call yourself a progamer.
SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed.
On September 01 2010 17:40 maybenexttime wrote:
On September 01 2010 16:47 Spyridon wrote:
On September 01 2010 00:55 maybenexttime wrote:
On September 01 2010 00:49 dyodyo wrote:
On September 01 2010 00:37 maybenexttime wrote: [quote]
GET A CLUE.
If Gretech forces KeSPA to shut down Proleague, there's no reason for any progaming teams to operate. Why on earth would they keep sustaining them? This is not charity... ProLeague is THE marketing tool those corporate sponsors as far as esports go.
It's ridiculous how Gretech feels threatened by ProLeague because they're (KeSPA) are using a superior spectator game, with superior infrastructure and organization.
I dont think that they are being threatened by a "superior spectator game". They are just afraid that KeSPA would again force the teams and its players to boycott a Gretech run league, just like what KeSPA did with the GSL.
KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition?
KeSPA already has.
With that said, I dont see how anyone can be defending KeSPA. If they were really behind ESports, they would not be trying to make sure that BW is the ONLY significant ESport around. Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed.
Is your reading comprehension really that bad?
Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?!
Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense.
"Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed."
EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been?
On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA?
Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part...
KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV"
That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed.
It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP.
BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all.
Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless.
And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea.
Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up.
Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys".
The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words.
Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating.
This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to.
They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa.
KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP.
KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want.
Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games?
Well, it would be more like the world cup being the same weekend as the super bowl, which would not happen.
In korea it's more like the world cup vs peewee soccer.
On September 01 2010 17:11 Cowazon wrote: Since when did SC2 become such a successful esport that we conclude that Kespa "not caring about SC2" means that they "don't care about esports"?
When SC2 "progamers" can earn a stable salary regardless of performance in tournaments, then SC2 can begin to be considered a successful esport. Taking a day or two off work/school to practice for a SC2 tournament (whose entire viewership is limited to other people that play the game) doesn't earn you the right to call yourself a progamer.
SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed.
On September 01 2010 17:40 maybenexttime wrote:
On September 01 2010 16:47 Spyridon wrote:
On September 01 2010 00:55 maybenexttime wrote:
On September 01 2010 00:49 dyodyo wrote:
On September 01 2010 00:37 maybenexttime wrote:
On August 31 2010 23:53 Killmour wrote: [quote]
Exactly, Kespa's attitude of our way or we will have a temper tantrum and disband the pro-league is just stupid.
GET A CLUE.
If Gretech forces KeSPA to shut down Proleague, there's no reason for any progaming teams to operate. Why on earth would they keep sustaining them? This is not charity... ProLeague is THE marketing tool those corporate sponsors as far as esports go.
It's ridiculous how Gretech feels threatened by ProLeague because they're (KeSPA) are using a superior spectator game, with superior infrastructure and organization.
I dont think that they are being threatened by a "superior spectator game". They are just afraid that KeSPA would again force the teams and its players to boycott a Gretech run league, just like what KeSPA did with the GSL.
KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition?
KeSPA already has.
With that said, I dont see how anyone can be defending KeSPA. If they were really behind ESports, they would not be trying to make sure that BW is the ONLY significant ESport around. Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed.
Is your reading comprehension really that bad?
Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?!
Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense.
"Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed."
EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been?
On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA?
Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part...
KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV"
That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed.
It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP.
BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all.
Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless.
And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea.
Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up.
Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys".
The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words.
Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating.
This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to.
They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa.
KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP.
KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want.
Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games?
Would you enjoy it if you made a movie, and then a company who has been using the IP from that movie for years refused to support the movies sequel?
Things like that are exactly why IP laws exist.
BTW, if you want to use your example, it's a bit off. In this case Blizzard would be FIFA. They are the property owner. It's their say what goes on with the games.
However, Gretech, starting with the beginning of the 4th negotiation, has said that "We cannot sign off on the Proleague, since it will compete with the GSL"
On September 01 2010 18:54 Spyridon wrote: SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed.
Hah, if Kespa had that much power as you claim, in that SC2 will never have a chance if Kespa doesn't support it, Kespa surely would have a ton more bargaining power and Gretech/Blizzard wouldn't act like this.
If all the rumors and leaks are actually the true positions of each party though, I'd be surprised that CJ isn't stepping in to make sure OGN can continue regular operations. OGN will definitely not be able to continue business as usual if Proleague is gone, and OSL might even be greatly diminished. To CJ as a whole the entire esports scene might not be a big deal to their entire business but surely the BW scene with its large (but perhaps declining) audience is still more valuable than a new scene without an established audience yet.
On September 01 2010 17:11 Cowazon wrote: Since when did SC2 become such a successful esport that we conclude that Kespa "not caring about SC2" means that they "don't care about esports"?
When SC2 "progamers" can earn a stable salary regardless of performance in tournaments, then SC2 can begin to be considered a successful esport. Taking a day or two off work/school to practice for a SC2 tournament (whose entire viewership is limited to other people that play the game) doesn't earn you the right to call yourself a progamer.
SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed.
On September 01 2010 17:40 maybenexttime wrote:
On September 01 2010 16:47 Spyridon wrote:
On September 01 2010 00:55 maybenexttime wrote:
On September 01 2010 00:49 dyodyo wrote:
On September 01 2010 00:37 maybenexttime wrote: [quote]
GET A CLUE.
If Gretech forces KeSPA to shut down Proleague, there's no reason for any progaming teams to operate. Why on earth would they keep sustaining them? This is not charity... ProLeague is THE marketing tool those corporate sponsors as far as esports go.
It's ridiculous how Gretech feels threatened by ProLeague because they're (KeSPA) are using a superior spectator game, with superior infrastructure and organization.
I dont think that they are being threatened by a "superior spectator game". They are just afraid that KeSPA would again force the teams and its players to boycott a Gretech run league, just like what KeSPA did with the GSL.
KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition?
KeSPA already has.
With that said, I dont see how anyone can be defending KeSPA. If they were really behind ESports, they would not be trying to make sure that BW is the ONLY significant ESport around. Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed.
Is your reading comprehension really that bad?
Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?!
Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense.
"Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed."
EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been?
On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA?
Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part...
KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV"
That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed.
It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP.
BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all.
Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless.
And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea.
Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up.
Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys".
The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words.
Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating.
This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to.
They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa.
KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP.
KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want.
Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games?
Would you enjoy it if you made a movie, and then a company who has been using the IP from that movie for years refused to support the movies sequel?
Things like that are exactly why IP laws exist.
BTW, if you want to use your example, it's a bit off. In this case Blizzard would be FIFA. They are the property owner. It's their say what goes on with the games.
Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels.
IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports.
As long as blizzard only cares about money it will never be good to put them in charge of esports even for their own games, when they actually care about esports, then we can talk.
The only way it would be worth it to let blizz control all the esports for their corporate greed, would be if dimaga action figures came into existence because of it.
On September 01 2010 17:11 Cowazon wrote: Since when did SC2 become such a successful esport that we conclude that Kespa "not caring about SC2" means that they "don't care about esports"?
When SC2 "progamers" can earn a stable salary regardless of performance in tournaments, then SC2 can begin to be considered a successful esport. Taking a day or two off work/school to practice for a SC2 tournament (whose entire viewership is limited to other people that play the game) doesn't earn you the right to call yourself a progamer.
SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed.
On September 01 2010 17:40 maybenexttime wrote:
On September 01 2010 16:47 Spyridon wrote:
On September 01 2010 00:55 maybenexttime wrote:
On September 01 2010 00:49 dyodyo wrote: [quote]
I dont think that they are being threatened by a "superior spectator game". They are just afraid that KeSPA would again force the teams and its players to boycott a Gretech run league, just like what KeSPA did with the GSL.
KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition?
KeSPA already has.
With that said, I dont see how anyone can be defending KeSPA. If they were really behind ESports, they would not be trying to make sure that BW is the ONLY significant ESport around. Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed.
Is your reading comprehension really that bad?
Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?!
Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense.
"Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed."
EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been?
On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA?
Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part...
KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV"
That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed.
It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP.
BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all.
Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless.
And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea.
Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up.
Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys".
The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words.
Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating.
This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to.
They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa.
KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP.
KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want.
Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games?
Would you enjoy it if you made a movie, and then a company who has been using the IP from that movie for years refused to support the movies sequel?
Things like that are exactly why IP laws exist.
BTW, if you want to use your example, it's a bit off. In this case Blizzard would be FIFA. They are the property owner. It's their say what goes on with the games.
Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels.
IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports.
Blizzard has shown no intent to kill off BW. They are negotiating with them and you have not seen them mention ANYWHERE that "KeSPA ONLY has to support SC2, and not BW".
That hasnt happened.
The only company that has shown a CLEAR intent to support ONLY ONE GAME... is KeSPA. Not Blizzard or Gretech. Hell, it would be a good business decision for Blizzard if BOTH games thrived.
I know theres so much hate going on for Blizzard on the internet... but open your eyes. If Blizzard only cared about money, they would be banking on BOTH games, and not just one.
The only company named here that gets anything out of only one game thriving, is KeSPA.
Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels.
IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports.
Well, a similar argument could be made against Kespa. Blizzard provided the game that Kespa used to establish an esport-scene in Korea, now Blizzard is asking Kespa to let Sc2 into the scene to compete with Sc1 on equal footing and Kespa is saying ''Fuck off'' and doing things that hinder the development of Sc2 as an esports-game.
Why are you only going after Blizzard/Gretech for trying to push Sc1 out of the way but not after Kespa for trying to push Sc2 out of the way?
I can't really judge anything from just 1 side of the story just yet but wasn't it with the IEM incident that the TLO vs NaDa showmatch said that KeSpa didn't want any stream be streamed to the koreans in south korea ?
I'm wondering why would they want to do this?
You would think they don't want to support sc2 but then the line of and I quote: "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV. If Gretech is like this, then there isn't any more point of negotiations". You have no reason just now ? You didn't had any reasons when IEM streamed the showmatch and it got re-streamed to Korea and you pulled the plug for what reason then?
It's very vague of KeSpa and we really need to know the sotry of Gretech's point of view to know the whole view but just that action done at IEM clearly suggests that KeSpa are not telling everything of their motives.
On September 01 2010 17:11 Cowazon wrote: Since when did SC2 become such a successful esport that we conclude that Kespa "not caring about SC2" means that they "don't care about esports"?
When SC2 "progamers" can earn a stable salary regardless of performance in tournaments, then SC2 can begin to be considered a successful esport. Taking a day or two off work/school to practice for a SC2 tournament (whose entire viewership is limited to other people that play the game) doesn't earn you the right to call yourself a progamer.
SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed.
On September 01 2010 17:40 maybenexttime wrote:
On September 01 2010 16:47 Spyridon wrote:
On September 01 2010 00:55 maybenexttime wrote: [quote]
KeSPA players are already NOT participating. GSL is a StarCraft TWO league. KeSPA teams are BROOD WAR teams, with BROOD WAR players. Does Gretech fear that KeSPA will forbid those very BROOD WAR players from playing in a StarCraft TWO competition?
KeSPA already has.
With that said, I dont see how anyone can be defending KeSPA. If they were really behind ESports, they would not be trying to make sure that BW is the ONLY significant ESport around. Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed.
Is your reading comprehension really that bad?
Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?!
Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense.
"Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed."
EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been?
On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA?
Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part...
KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV"
That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed.
It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP.
BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all.
Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless.
And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea.
Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up.
Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys".
The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words.
Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating.
This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to.
They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa.
KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP.
KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want.
Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games?
Would you enjoy it if you made a movie, and then a company who has been using the IP from that movie for years refused to support the movies sequel?
Things like that are exactly why IP laws exist.
BTW, if you want to use your example, it's a bit off. In this case Blizzard would be FIFA. They are the property owner. It's their say what goes on with the games.
Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels.
IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports.
Blizzard has shown no intent to kill off BW. They are negotiating with them and you have not seen them mention ANYWHERE that "KeSPA ONLY has to support SC2, and not BW".
That hasnt happened.
The only company that has shown a CLEAR intent to support ONLY ONE GAME... is KeSPA. Not Blizzard or Gretech. Hell, it would be a good business decision if BOTH games thrived.
The only company named here that gets anything out of only one game thriving, is KeSPA.
Did you read the thread? Blizzard/Gretech clearly see BW as a competitor to GSL. They won't give anyone a contract for BW unless they also promote SC2 aka supporting 2 games that compete against each other, which indirectly helps to kill BW.
Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels.
IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports.
Well, a similar argument could be made against Kespa. Blizzard provided the game that Kespa used to establish an esport-scene in Korea, now Blizzard is asking Kespa to let Sc2 into the scene to compete with Sc1 on equal footing and Kespa is saying ''Fuck off'' and doing things that hinder the development of Sc2 as an esports-game.
Why are you only going after Blizzard/Gretech for trying to push Sc1 out of the way but not after Kespa for trying to push Sc2 out of the way?
Kespa has no control over what blizzard wants to do with sc2. Kespa only has control over what it is responsible for.
Anyway should we be supportive of the money grubbing blizzard, or the kespa that has developed esports more than anyone else. gee i wonder what would be better for esports.
On September 01 2010 17:11 Cowazon wrote: Since when did SC2 become such a successful esport that we conclude that Kespa "not caring about SC2" means that they "don't care about esports"?
When SC2 "progamers" can earn a stable salary regardless of performance in tournaments, then SC2 can begin to be considered a successful esport. Taking a day or two off work/school to practice for a SC2 tournament (whose entire viewership is limited to other people that play the game) doesn't earn you the right to call yourself a progamer.
SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed.
On September 01 2010 17:40 maybenexttime wrote:
On September 01 2010 16:47 Spyridon wrote: [quote]
KeSPA already has.
With that said, I dont see how anyone can be defending KeSPA. If they were really behind ESports, they would not be trying to make sure that BW is the ONLY significant ESport around. Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed.
Is your reading comprehension really that bad?
Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?!
Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense.
"Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed."
EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been?
On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA?
Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part...
KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV"
That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed.
It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP.
BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all.
Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless.
And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea.
Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up.
Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys".
The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words.
Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating.
This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to.
They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa.
KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP.
KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want.
Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games?
Would you enjoy it if you made a movie, and then a company who has been using the IP from that movie for years refused to support the movies sequel?
Things like that are exactly why IP laws exist.
BTW, if you want to use your example, it's a bit off. In this case Blizzard would be FIFA. They are the property owner. It's their say what goes on with the games.
Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels.
IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports.
Blizzard has shown no intent to kill off BW. They are negotiating with them and you have not seen them mention ANYWHERE that "KeSPA ONLY has to support SC2, and not BW".
That hasnt happened.
The only company that has shown a CLEAR intent to support ONLY ONE GAME... is KeSPA. Not Blizzard or Gretech. Hell, it would be a good business decision if BOTH games thrived.
The only company named here that gets anything out of only one game thriving, is KeSPA.
Did you read the thread? Blizzard/Gretech clearly see BW as a competitor to GSL. They won't give anyone a contract for BW unless they also promote SC2 aka supporting 2 games that compete against each other, which indirectly helps to kill BW.
SC2 has been released already and BW isnt dead.
Supporting 2 games only allows both to be played. It doesnt say anywhere that any BW players are required to leave for SC2.
The only thing that would change is that if a pro player WANTED to play SC2, they would be able to, without the streams getting shut down like KeSPA pulled at IEM.
Shouldnt pros be able to play SC2 if they want, without having KeSPA pull the plug?
On September 01 2010 17:11 Cowazon wrote: Since when did SC2 become such a successful esport that we conclude that Kespa "not caring about SC2" means that they "don't care about esports"?
When SC2 "progamers" can earn a stable salary regardless of performance in tournaments, then SC2 can begin to be considered a successful esport. Taking a day or two off work/school to practice for a SC2 tournament (whose entire viewership is limited to other people that play the game) doesn't earn you the right to call yourself a progamer.
SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed.
On September 01 2010 17:40 maybenexttime wrote: [quote]
Is your reading comprehension really that bad?
Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?!
Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense.
"Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed."
EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been?
On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA?
Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part...
KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV"
That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed.
It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP.
BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all.
Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless.
And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea.
Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up.
Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys".
The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words.
Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating.
This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to.
They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa.
KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP.
KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want.
Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games?
Would you enjoy it if you made a movie, and then a company who has been using the IP from that movie for years refused to support the movies sequel?
Things like that are exactly why IP laws exist.
BTW, if you want to use your example, it's a bit off. In this case Blizzard would be FIFA. They are the property owner. It's their say what goes on with the games.
Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels.
IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports.
Blizzard has shown no intent to kill off BW. They are negotiating with them and you have not seen them mention ANYWHERE that "KeSPA ONLY has to support SC2, and not BW".
That hasnt happened.
The only company that has shown a CLEAR intent to support ONLY ONE GAME... is KeSPA. Not Blizzard or Gretech. Hell, it would be a good business decision if BOTH games thrived.
The only company named here that gets anything out of only one game thriving, is KeSPA.
Did you read the thread? Blizzard/Gretech clearly see BW as a competitor to GSL. They won't give anyone a contract for BW unless they also promote SC2 aka supporting 2 games that compete against each other, which indirectly helps to kill BW.
SC2 has been released already and BW isnt dead.
Supporting 2 games only allows both to be played. It doesnt say anywhere that any BW players are required to leave for SC2.
The only thing that would change is that if a pro player WANTED to play SC2, they would be able to, without the streams getting shut down like KeSPA pulled at IEM.
Shouldnt pros be able to play SC2 if they want, without having KeSPA pull the plug?
If both games are trying to become legitimate esports and both air at primetime in korea, guess what, they are in competition with each other.
Your perception of this situation is a bit off, these are PROFESSIONALS who play BW for a living. It is not the same as a casual gamer just switching between games on his desktop on a whim.
If you are playing BW professionally you shouldn't be trying to play SC2 professionally at the same time.
On September 01 2010 17:11 Cowazon wrote: Since when did SC2 become such a successful esport that we conclude that Kespa "not caring about SC2" means that they "don't care about esports"?
When SC2 "progamers" can earn a stable salary regardless of performance in tournaments, then SC2 can begin to be considered a successful esport. Taking a day or two off work/school to practice for a SC2 tournament (whose entire viewership is limited to other people that play the game) doesn't earn you the right to call yourself a progamer.
SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed.
On September 01 2010 17:40 maybenexttime wrote: [quote]
Is your reading comprehension really that bad?
Gretech is trying to deliberately RUIN ProLeague. The only thing KeSPA is doing here is not investing in SC2. Are you telling me they're OBLIGED to invest into SC2? How crazy is that?!
Why would BW progamers want to compete in SC2 events? They're contracted BROOD WAR players. If they want to switch to SC2, nobody stops them... Some already have. So stop this nonesense.
"Theres no reason both can not coexist, and I do not see why KeSPA does not WANT both games to succeed."
EXACTLY. Except it's Gretech that does not want BW to be successful anymore... Are you actually blaming KeSPA for not investing millions of dollars into an inferior spectator game that might not actually become all that popular, especially considering how abusive the Blizzard terms have been?
On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA?
Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part...
KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV"
That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed.
It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP.
BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all.
Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless.
And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea.
Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up.
Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys".
The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words.
Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating.
This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to.
They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa.
KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP.
KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want.
Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games?
Would you enjoy it if you made a movie, and then a company who has been using the IP from that movie for years refused to support the movies sequel?
Things like that are exactly why IP laws exist.
BTW, if you want to use your example, it's a bit off. In this case Blizzard would be FIFA. They are the property owner. It's their say what goes on with the games.
Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels.
IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports.
Blizzard has shown no intent to kill off BW. They are negotiating with them and you have not seen them mention ANYWHERE that "KeSPA ONLY has to support SC2, and not BW".
That hasnt happened.
The only company that has shown a CLEAR intent to support ONLY ONE GAME... is KeSPA. Not Blizzard or Gretech. Hell, it would be a good business decision if BOTH games thrived.
The only company named here that gets anything out of only one game thriving, is KeSPA.
Did you read the thread? Blizzard/Gretech clearly see BW as a competitor to GSL. They won't give anyone a contract for BW unless they also promote SC2 aka supporting 2 games that compete against each other, which indirectly helps to kill BW.
SC2 has been released already and BW isnt dead.
Supporting 2 games only allows both to be played. It doesnt say anywhere that any BW players are required to leave for SC2.
The only thing that would change is that if a pro player WANTED to play SC2, they would be able to, without the streams getting shut down like KeSPA pulled at IEM.
Shouldnt pros be able to play SC2 if they want, without having KeSPA pull the plug?
If a KeSPA licensed player is playing broadcasted SC2 in korea, which KeSPA doesn't have a licence to broadcast because only GOM does, then do they have any choice but to pull the plug since they are legally liable? You know that GOM banned the participation players actively using their progaming licence in GSL right? Clearly they are trying to create a divide here.
On September 01 2010 18:54 Spyridon wrote: [quote]
SC2 isnt a hugely successful esport yet - but it never will even have a chance if organizations such as KeSPA do not WANT the game to succeed.
[quote]
On the topic of "nobody stopping them from playing SC2"... are you forgetting what went down with the TLO vs Nada show match at the hands of KeSPA?
Since your insulting my reading comprehension, if you dont understand what I was talking about, you must not have comprehended this part...
KeSPA has revealed that "Because we have decided to pay a usage fee for the Intellectual property for the Proleague, we have no reason to promote Starcraft 2 or help GomTV"
That makes it obvious that KeSPA does not WANT SC2 to succeed.
It's Blizzards Intellectual Property rights. KeSPA are the ones that have to negotiate with them, not the other way around. If they are not willing to do what's deemed neccessary by the property owner to use their IP, how is Gretech the antagonist? KeSPA is the antagonist if they are not willing to do their part to use the IP.
BTW - SC2 is still a part of the Starcraft IP. If they want to use the IP, it's not strange at all for them to have to support the IP as a whole, or not at all.
Would you want KeSPA to succeed if they refused to promote for you after making money off your IP in the past? Or even if you believe they are really non profit - which is obviously false - they are only successful because of the Starcraft IP regardless.
And you say KeSPA wont invest millions of dollars in to promoting SC2 - promoting SC2 would be no different from what they are already doing for BW. The only difference is they would not be anti-SC2 every chance they get - such as shutting down SC2 show matches with their BW players because they dont want it to be seen in Korea.
Also... If they are really non-profit how could they have to invest millions of dollars promoting the game? The comments around KeSPA just dont add up.
Answer this - Why would they even negotiate with KeSPA if they didnt want BW to succeed? They would have just said "screw you guys".
The fact that they are even attempting negotiations shows Gretech wants both games to succeed. The same can not be said for KeSPA, which is apparent from their own words.
Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating.
This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to.
They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa.
KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP.
KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want.
Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games?
Would you enjoy it if you made a movie, and then a company who has been using the IP from that movie for years refused to support the movies sequel?
Things like that are exactly why IP laws exist.
BTW, if you want to use your example, it's a bit off. In this case Blizzard would be FIFA. They are the property owner. It's their say what goes on with the games.
Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels.
IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports.
Blizzard has shown no intent to kill off BW. They are negotiating with them and you have not seen them mention ANYWHERE that "KeSPA ONLY has to support SC2, and not BW".
That hasnt happened.
The only company that has shown a CLEAR intent to support ONLY ONE GAME... is KeSPA. Not Blizzard or Gretech. Hell, it would be a good business decision if BOTH games thrived.
The only company named here that gets anything out of only one game thriving, is KeSPA.
Did you read the thread? Blizzard/Gretech clearly see BW as a competitor to GSL. They won't give anyone a contract for BW unless they also promote SC2 aka supporting 2 games that compete against each other, which indirectly helps to kill BW.
SC2 has been released already and BW isnt dead.
Supporting 2 games only allows both to be played. It doesnt say anywhere that any BW players are required to leave for SC2.
The only thing that would change is that if a pro player WANTED to play SC2, they would be able to, without the streams getting shut down like KeSPA pulled at IEM.
Shouldnt pros be able to play SC2 if they want, without having KeSPA pull the plug?
If both games are trying to become legitimate esports and both air at primetime in korea, guess what, they are in competition with each other.
You know I've seen so many people saying how BW is a superior esport, then why are people so scared of SC2 being played alongside BW?
If BW is really a superior esport, then the pros will CHOOSE to stick with BW, and there is nothing to worry about.
KeSPA is obviously worried for a reason... now what would you think that reason might be?
Either way, I completely disagree with anyone who claims KeSPA is all about esports, when they are only supporting BW and refusing to support SC2 in the esport community.
How are esports going to ever become bigger in the future if only BW is supported?
On September 01 2010 18:58 robertdinh wrote: [quote]
Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating.
This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to.
They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa.
KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP.
KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want.
Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games?
Would you enjoy it if you made a movie, and then a company who has been using the IP from that movie for years refused to support the movies sequel?
Things like that are exactly why IP laws exist.
BTW, if you want to use your example, it's a bit off. In this case Blizzard would be FIFA. They are the property owner. It's their say what goes on with the games.
Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels.
IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports.
Blizzard has shown no intent to kill off BW. They are negotiating with them and you have not seen them mention ANYWHERE that "KeSPA ONLY has to support SC2, and not BW".
That hasnt happened.
The only company that has shown a CLEAR intent to support ONLY ONE GAME... is KeSPA. Not Blizzard or Gretech. Hell, it would be a good business decision if BOTH games thrived.
The only company named here that gets anything out of only one game thriving, is KeSPA.
Did you read the thread? Blizzard/Gretech clearly see BW as a competitor to GSL. They won't give anyone a contract for BW unless they also promote SC2 aka supporting 2 games that compete against each other, which indirectly helps to kill BW.
SC2 has been released already and BW isnt dead.
Supporting 2 games only allows both to be played. It doesnt say anywhere that any BW players are required to leave for SC2.
The only thing that would change is that if a pro player WANTED to play SC2, they would be able to, without the streams getting shut down like KeSPA pulled at IEM.
Shouldnt pros be able to play SC2 if they want, without having KeSPA pull the plug?
If both games are trying to become legitimate esports and both air at primetime in korea, guess what, they are in competition with each other.
You know I've seen so many people saying how BW is a superior esport, then why are people so scared of SC2 being played alongside BW?
If BW is really a superior esport, then the pros will CHOOSE to stick with BW, and there is nothing to worry about.
KeSPA is obviously worried for a reason... now what would you think that reason might be?
Kespa isn't scared of sc2, sc2 has many flaws compared to bw as an esport, they have every right to be concerned with blizz and gretech trying to monopolize esports in korea through perpetuating SC2 and killing off bw though.
These IP issues exist now not because blizzard cares about bw as an esport, and their rights to BW, they exist because blizzard wants to pave the way for SC2, and giving kespa a bunch of legal hoops to jump through just to keep BW afloat helps to make way for sc2.
On September 01 2010 19:04 Spyridon wrote: [quote]
KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP.
KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want.
Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games?
Would you enjoy it if you made a movie, and then a company who has been using the IP from that movie for years refused to support the movies sequel?
Things like that are exactly why IP laws exist.
BTW, if you want to use your example, it's a bit off. In this case Blizzard would be FIFA. They are the property owner. It's their say what goes on with the games.
Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels.
IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports.
Blizzard has shown no intent to kill off BW. They are negotiating with them and you have not seen them mention ANYWHERE that "KeSPA ONLY has to support SC2, and not BW".
That hasnt happened.
The only company that has shown a CLEAR intent to support ONLY ONE GAME... is KeSPA. Not Blizzard or Gretech. Hell, it would be a good business decision if BOTH games thrived.
The only company named here that gets anything out of only one game thriving, is KeSPA.
Did you read the thread? Blizzard/Gretech clearly see BW as a competitor to GSL. They won't give anyone a contract for BW unless they also promote SC2 aka supporting 2 games that compete against each other, which indirectly helps to kill BW.
SC2 has been released already and BW isnt dead.
Supporting 2 games only allows both to be played. It doesnt say anywhere that any BW players are required to leave for SC2.
The only thing that would change is that if a pro player WANTED to play SC2, they would be able to, without the streams getting shut down like KeSPA pulled at IEM.
Shouldnt pros be able to play SC2 if they want, without having KeSPA pull the plug?
If both games are trying to become legitimate esports and both air at primetime in korea, guess what, they are in competition with each other.
You know I've seen so many people saying how BW is a superior esport, then why are people so scared of SC2 being played alongside BW?
If BW is really a superior esport, then the pros will CHOOSE to stick with BW, and there is nothing to worry about.
KeSPA is obviously worried for a reason... now what would you think that reason might be?
Kespa isn't scared of sc2, sc2 has many flaws compared to bw as an esport, they have every right to be concerned with blizz and gretech trying to monopolize esports in korea through perpetuating SC2 and killing off bw though.
If thats true, they would have no reason to try to prevent the coexistence.
It's not a monopoly until Blizzard decides to say "We only want to support SC2 and not BW". Which has not been said.
On September 01 2010 19:07 robertdinh wrote: [quote]
Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games?
Would you enjoy it if you made a movie, and then a company who has been using the IP from that movie for years refused to support the movies sequel?
Things like that are exactly why IP laws exist.
BTW, if you want to use your example, it's a bit off. In this case Blizzard would be FIFA. They are the property owner. It's their say what goes on with the games.
Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels.
IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports.
Blizzard has shown no intent to kill off BW. They are negotiating with them and you have not seen them mention ANYWHERE that "KeSPA ONLY has to support SC2, and not BW".
That hasnt happened.
The only company that has shown a CLEAR intent to support ONLY ONE GAME... is KeSPA. Not Blizzard or Gretech. Hell, it would be a good business decision if BOTH games thrived.
The only company named here that gets anything out of only one game thriving, is KeSPA.
Did you read the thread? Blizzard/Gretech clearly see BW as a competitor to GSL. They won't give anyone a contract for BW unless they also promote SC2 aka supporting 2 games that compete against each other, which indirectly helps to kill BW.
SC2 has been released already and BW isnt dead.
Supporting 2 games only allows both to be played. It doesnt say anywhere that any BW players are required to leave for SC2.
The only thing that would change is that if a pro player WANTED to play SC2, they would be able to, without the streams getting shut down like KeSPA pulled at IEM.
Shouldnt pros be able to play SC2 if they want, without having KeSPA pull the plug?
If both games are trying to become legitimate esports and both air at primetime in korea, guess what, they are in competition with each other.
You know I've seen so many people saying how BW is a superior esport, then why are people so scared of SC2 being played alongside BW?
If BW is really a superior esport, then the pros will CHOOSE to stick with BW, and there is nothing to worry about.
KeSPA is obviously worried for a reason... now what would you think that reason might be?
Kespa isn't scared of sc2, sc2 has many flaws compared to bw as an esport, they have every right to be concerned with blizz and gretech trying to monopolize esports in korea through perpetuating SC2 and killing off bw though.
If thats true, they would have no reason to try to prevent the coexistence.
It's not a monopoly until Blizzard decides to say "We only want to support SC2 and not BW". Which has not been said.
Blizzard can't say that cause it will kill all support for sc2 in korea. They can only try to kill BW off through maneuvering.
It's a shame you can't see what blizzard has done here. They are trying to make it as difficult as possible to keep bw proleagues going, specifically so that BW will dwindle so that they can try to force sc2 down everyone's throat as an esport.
For everyone who simply is saying "it's just their word against each other" - please do try to weigh all the other available evidence, such as the actions of the companies outside negotiations. Such as Activision-Blizzard's clear philosophy on how they built battle.net 2.0 - full control on their side over every aspect of the game, all of your data submitted to them, all your games played through their servers, etc and then weigh Kespa's claims with that in mind.
Kespa is no saint - the sponsors try to keep their costs down and the product stable and in doing so do no favors to the players' well being, but Activision-Blizzard is trying to eliminate an entire scene just to slightly boost the potential audience and playerbase of their new game.
If Activision-Blizzard really does succeed in greatly harming the BW scene and reducing competition for SC2, won't sponsors realize that investing in the SC2 scene will also be ephemeral and once Activision-Blizzard puts out a new product, they'll stab the SC2 scene in the back as well? Activision-Blizzard has shown that it's all about short term gains and not long term sustainable rewards - look at how it milked Guitar Hero and Tony Hawk until the two brands are now empty husks, look how they treated Infinity Ward's key staff, and more.
On September 01 2010 18:58 robertdinh wrote: [quote]
Not quite, sometimes you "negotiate" to appear to the public as if you are willing to "negotiate" but you actually have no intention of negotiating.
This seems exactly like what gretech is doing, they went into negotiations, yet they have no intention of agreeing to let kespa only do bw like kespa wants to.
They basically figured kespa wouldn't want to negotiate, and then kespa said they are willing to pay to keep running their bw leagues, then gretech decided to add other terms that would guarantee that kespa couldn't accept. Aka gretech never wanted kespa to be on board, they just wanted to create the appearance of wanting to try to work things out with kespa.
KeSPA "only wanting to do BW like they want to" is the whole problem. They only want BW to succeed, and that doesnt go along very well with the IP owner when they are only supporting a portion of the IP.
KeSPA isnt the property owner. They are the ones that have to come to an agreement, they arent the ones with the power to make the demands to "do what they want". They are the ones that have to make an acceptable agreement to be ALLOWED to do what they want.
Some would say the problem is that gretech doesn't want kespa doing bw at all, especially in any way that would take attention away from GSL. Would you enjoy it if the world cup wasn't allowed to be broadcast because it conflicted with peewee soccer games?
Would you enjoy it if you made a movie, and then a company who has been using the IP from that movie for years refused to support the movies sequel?
Things like that are exactly why IP laws exist.
BTW, if you want to use your example, it's a bit off. In this case Blizzard would be FIFA. They are the property owner. It's their say what goes on with the games.
Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels.
IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports.
Blizzard has shown no intent to kill off BW. They are negotiating with them and you have not seen them mention ANYWHERE that "KeSPA ONLY has to support SC2, and not BW".
That hasnt happened.
The only company that has shown a CLEAR intent to support ONLY ONE GAME... is KeSPA. Not Blizzard or Gretech. Hell, it would be a good business decision if BOTH games thrived.
The only company named here that gets anything out of only one game thriving, is KeSPA.
Did you read the thread? Blizzard/Gretech clearly see BW as a competitor to GSL. They won't give anyone a contract for BW unless they also promote SC2 aka supporting 2 games that compete against each other, which indirectly helps to kill BW.
SC2 has been released already and BW isnt dead.
Supporting 2 games only allows both to be played. It doesnt say anywhere that any BW players are required to leave for SC2.
The only thing that would change is that if a pro player WANTED to play SC2, they would be able to, without the streams getting shut down like KeSPA pulled at IEM.
Shouldnt pros be able to play SC2 if they want, without having KeSPA pull the plug?
If both games are trying to become legitimate esports and both air at primetime in korea, guess what, they are in competition with each other.
You know I've seen so many people saying how BW is a superior esport, then why are people so scared of SC2 being played alongside BW?
If BW is really a superior esport, then the pros will CHOOSE to stick with BW, and there is nothing to worry about.
KeSPA is obviously worried for a reason... now what would you think that reason might be?
Either way, I completely disagree with anyone who claims KeSPA is all about esports, when they are only supporting BW and refusing to support SC2 in the esport community.
How are esports going to ever become bigger in the future if only BW is supported?
KeSPA aren't scared - they're prepared to not make a profit from PL in return for a licence - that's about as ballsy as you can get. They're "refusing" to support SC2 because they legally are not allowed to - GOM has the exclusive rights. Do you think GOM is going to let KeSPA try and get in on the SC2 scene? Not a chance.
On September 01 2010 19:11 Spyridon wrote: [quote]
Would you enjoy it if you made a movie, and then a company who has been using the IP from that movie for years refused to support the movies sequel?
Things like that are exactly why IP laws exist.
BTW, if you want to use your example, it's a bit off. In this case Blizzard would be FIFA. They are the property owner. It's their say what goes on with the games.
Except that you want the company to support your movie sequels when the company themselves created the potential for the sequels (in this case sc2 as an esport in korea) while killing off the original movie because it is going to compete with the sequels.
IP laws are irrelevant here to me because blizzard never cared about BW esports, kespa made it what it is in korea. Now blizzard is trying to cash in off of that, which is fine, except that they don't even want to let bw thrive anymore, they want to kill bw off to make room for their new shiny game that comes in 3 installments and isn't nearly as good for esports.
Blizzard has shown no intent to kill off BW. They are negotiating with them and you have not seen them mention ANYWHERE that "KeSPA ONLY has to support SC2, and not BW".
That hasnt happened.
The only company that has shown a CLEAR intent to support ONLY ONE GAME... is KeSPA. Not Blizzard or Gretech. Hell, it would be a good business decision if BOTH games thrived.
The only company named here that gets anything out of only one game thriving, is KeSPA.
Did you read the thread? Blizzard/Gretech clearly see BW as a competitor to GSL. They won't give anyone a contract for BW unless they also promote SC2 aka supporting 2 games that compete against each other, which indirectly helps to kill BW.
SC2 has been released already and BW isnt dead.
Supporting 2 games only allows both to be played. It doesnt say anywhere that any BW players are required to leave for SC2.
The only thing that would change is that if a pro player WANTED to play SC2, they would be able to, without the streams getting shut down like KeSPA pulled at IEM.
Shouldnt pros be able to play SC2 if they want, without having KeSPA pull the plug?
If both games are trying to become legitimate esports and both air at primetime in korea, guess what, they are in competition with each other.
You know I've seen so many people saying how BW is a superior esport, then why are people so scared of SC2 being played alongside BW?
If BW is really a superior esport, then the pros will CHOOSE to stick with BW, and there is nothing to worry about.
KeSPA is obviously worried for a reason... now what would you think that reason might be?
Kespa isn't scared of sc2, sc2 has many flaws compared to bw as an esport, they have every right to be concerned with blizz and gretech trying to monopolize esports in korea through perpetuating SC2 and killing off bw though.
If thats true, they would have no reason to try to prevent the coexistence.
It's not a monopoly until Blizzard decides to say "We only want to support SC2 and not BW". Which has not been said.
Blizzard can't say that cause it will kill all support for sc2 in korea. They can only try to kill BW off through maneuvering.
It's a shame you can't see what blizzard has done here. They are trying to make it as difficult as possible to keep bw proleagues going, specifically so that BW will dwindle so that they can try to force sc2 down everyone's throat as an esport.
The only thing making it difficult for BW proleagues to keep going, is KeSPA refusing to even allow SC2 a chance.
Noones forcing SC2 down everyones throat if Blizzard is not forcing BW to stop. Blizzard has only asked for them to not shoot down SC2, not for any BW players to stop playing BW.
If they do what Blizzard asks, BW scene will be the exact same way it is now, except players will have a chance to play SC2 if they want. What's so bad about that?
This conversation is going nowhere though, as there is a double standard going on here.
It’s okay for KeSPA to ONLY support BW, by that mentality it should be okay for Blizzard to only support SC2.
But that’s not even whats happening! Blizzard wants BOTH games to be supported, and KeSPA dont want that.
KeSPA did great things for the Esport comunity, but if they refuse to negotiate, they are only contributing to denying a CHANCE for Esports to grow.
Will SC2 turn in to a big Esport? Who knows. Will BW remain bigger because it really is the superior game? Who knows.
Do you think Esports will ever grow larger than they are now if BW is the only game supported in to the future?
Refusing to support any game other than BW will only result in Esports stagnating.
On September 01 2010 19:50 Zona wrote: For everyone who simply is saying "it's just their word against each other" - please do try to weigh all the other available evidence, such as the actions of the companies outside negotiations. Such as Activision-Blizzard's clear philosophy on how they built battle.net 2.0 - full control on their side over every aspect of the game, all of your data submitted to them, all your games played through their servers, etc and then weigh Kespa's claims with that in mind.
Kespa is no saint - the sponsors try to keep their costs down and the product stable and in doing so do no favors to the players' well being, but Activision-Blizzard is trying to eliminate an entire scene just to slightly boost the potential audience and playerbase of their new game.
If Activision-Blizzard really does succeed in greatly harming the BW scene and reducing competition for SC2, won't sponsors realize that investing in the SC2 scene will also be ephemeral and once Activision-Blizzard puts out a new product, they'll stab the SC2 scene in the back as well? Activision-Blizzard has shown that it's all about short term gains and not long term sustainable rewards - look at how it milked Guitar Hero and Tony Hawk until the two brands are now empty husks, look how they treated Infinity Ward's key staff, and more.
Yes I myself am unfamiliar with most activities of both parties and hearing both stories won't cut it alone. Like I said in my post you need to watch their actions towards other games/matters like how you described activision and guitar hero. In my understanding and view there just won't be a winner beneficial to the public only to the parties fighting themselves.
How I see it is that there are 3 parties involved in this matter where 2 parties are actually fighting eachother (the third are the public people playing the game and spectating). The best way would of course if the third party got the best gain of it (bigger and better E-Sport) thus it would be better for the other 2 parties (more sales for Activision and more viewers for KeSpa thus more sponsor income for them).
On September 01 2010 17:13 Letmelose wrote: Whatever bullshit Blizzard/Gretech is pulling for whatever reasons, is making the entire scene unstable. It won't be easy to persuade sponors to keep investing in the scene that is plagued with uncertainty, legal troubles and bad publicity overall. Not to mention the players themselves won't be able to showcast all their skills now they have their own livelihood to worry about.
I can see no good coming out of this, and since when did any of you care about the intellectual rights of a company that hardly is a victim of the idea that their game is the only product that manages to keep an entire industry consisting of numerous broadcasting companies, corporate sponsors, internet sites, alive. The industy was alive because we watched through the good times and the bad. Supported the players. Skipped classes to watch our favourite players live. Spent hours on numerous internet communities discussing the more important issues going on in the scene. It was the people's interest in the scene that allowed the scene to grow. And now Blizzard/Gretech wants to take all that away.
You can justify that all you want. I say it's total fucking bullshit. Blizzard didn't the scene. They shouldn't be able to hold us all at a gun point just because they made the game. It was the players. The teams that paid them. The broadcasters who employed professional observers, map-makers, casters and commentators. The fans who stood by their players and teams, the fans who got the broadcasting companies the necessary raitings. The fans who got the internet sites to stay alive with their non-stop activity within it.
Many of us, in one small way or the other. Made this entire thing happen. E-Sports wouldn't ahve existed without Blizzard? Fuck that. It wouldn't have existed without a lot of things clicking just right. Why the fuck would anybody empathize Blizzard's needs to disregard all the blood, sweat and tears devoted to get E-Sports to the point it is at now, for whatever the fuck it is that they feel we as a community owe to them for making such a great fucking game. I thought the debt was over the moment I paid for the game. But no. They feel I must bow down and suck on their crotch everytime I want to enjoy the by-products of their game. Apparently I can't enjoy shit without having to grovel for their permission and paying them money EVERY FUCKING TIME I WANT TO WATCH IT ON TELEVISION.
Don't you get it? We're the customers. We sustained the scene with our interest, which the corporate sponsors deemed enough in return for the pleasure of watching this amazing thing that is not available anywhere else. Now Blizzard comes barging in and starts to make demands that is way over-board both in terms of control and fincially speaking. They're not just fucking with Kespa here. They are FUCKING WITH YOU. STOP BEING HAPPY THAT YOU'RE BEING VIOLATED ANALLY BY A BUNCH OF MONEY HUNGRY FUCKHEADS.
Blizzard is essentially saying you can't fucking enjoy E-Sports without us getting our pockets full. Want to play our game? Pay us. Want to play our game on television. Pay us. Want to watch our game on television. FUCKING PAY US.
What part the E-Sports scene in Korea being threatened, Blizzard's message that what we do with their products will never be legally viable without their permission, and all the work we as a community have put in, no matter how small or insignificant in the grand scope of things, being PISSED ON by those fuckers. Why are some retards here celebrating the presence of a dictatorship on something that was not perfect, but relatively free from all this bullshit that has nothing to do with the beauty of the industry? Why are these mindless drones essentially mumbling: "OH CREATOR OF STARCRAFT WE BOW DOWN TO THEE AND WE ALL GLAD TO MEET YOUR INCESSANT NEED FOR MORE MONEY AND POWER. FUCK KESPA AND FUCK BROOD WARS. WE WILL PAY ALL THE CASH. WE WILL PAY ALL THE INTELLECTUAL RIGHTS EVERY TIME WE PLAY YOUR GAME COMPETITIVELY."
I say fuck that. And fuck you if you think we owe Blizzard a cent for something they hardly touched on all these years and have benefitted greatly from. It's the ultimate betrayal, and you have some serious issues of sadomasochism if you are greatly interested in making Blizzard richer even if it means having to sacrifice on your part.
It's a long post but I have to say I entirely agree with its sentiments. Of course those on TL who aren't BW fans don't feel personally affected by the events. But consider this - when Activision-Blizzard is putting out WC4 or SC3 and then shits on the SC2 scene how will you feel after you've invested in it as a player, a tournament organizer, or a fan? And keep in mind it'll be much easier for them to really close down on SC2 because they control every aspect of the game's multiplayer play, until BW.
On September 01 2010 19:55 Spyridon wrote: It’s okay for KeSPA to ONLY support BW, by that mentality it should be okay for Blizzard to only support SC2.
Um, two different things. "Kespa...only support BW" doesn't mean actively stopping SC2 from going on. But Activision-Blizzard futzing around with licensing means that they could possibly shut down the current BW scene altogether.
On September 01 2010 11:54 FishForThought wrote: Possible outcomes: 1. Kespa sells the 12 proleague team contracts to Gretech to handle then call it quits. 2. Kespa gets Gretech's license and run their own 'proleague' tournaments, which will consequently diminish the 12 team's quality due to proleague no longer the dominate competition. 3. Kespa does not get Gretech's license and disbands the 12 teams. 4. Gretech acquires Kespa.
Some of these outcomes aren't possible at all. Kespa represents the owners of the teams themselves. Gretech can't possibly buy and afford to operate the teams, it's not large or well-funded enough. And I'm highly doubtful that Gretech could quickly find another 11 sponsors to replace the current teams, even if somehow the teams could retain their players, with all the player housing, infrastructure, and etc being provided and owned by the current sponsors.
Gretech acquiring Kespa is also very farfetched since Kespa is simply an "industry organization" representing the interests of a group of similarly positioned companies (the team sponsors). The only value in Kespa is the coordination it provides to its member companies so there's no point in Gretech acquiring it at all, if it could even be done.
On September 01 2010 10:39 biskit wrote: I hope KeSPA dissolves all the teams so the progamers can upgrade to SC2. I wanna see Jaedong and Flash play the new Starcraft.
Too bad that won't happen.
So you're hoping Jaedong and Flash get a massive pay cut? How selfish. You want to know the real reason Nada cut the games with TLO short at IEM? He didn't want to lose his paycheck.
As sad as this is, some of this feels like karma. I was so angry at kespa when they screwed over GomTV Classic because they wanted a monopoly over BW, when Gretech would've helped develop the esports scene. Now Gretech doesn't want to cooperate with Kespa, surprise surprise.
On September 01 2010 20:37 roronoe wrote: As sad as this is, some of this feels like karma. I was so angry at kespa when they screwed over GomTV Classic because they wanted a monopoly over BW, when Gretech would've helped develop the esports scene. Now Gretech doesn't want to cooperate with Kespa, surprise surprise.
Karma's a bitch indeed and it would seem Kespa will have to face the consequences of their action towards Gretech for their effort developing BW scene. Which is a shame since it'll be a negative impact on everyone except Gretech and Blizzard.
- The majority of posters don't know what KeSPA is.
- The majority of posters don't know what a non-profit organization is.
Wow. KeSPA has done a number of shady things in the past and clearly it would come down to this when Blizzard empowered Gretech. The only way they're going to stop KeSPA is by trying to force their hand in court. If I were in KeSPA's position I wouldn't stop my daily activities either. The recessions Gretech is asking for is too much. I don't see a judge ruling in favor of all of Gretech's demands at all.
Selling intellectual property rights to OGN and MBC, when they do not own and have never owned the rights to Starcraft, and even not aknowledging Blizzard has the rights to Starcraft at all during 3 years of negotiations. They boycotted GOM... yeah, that surely shows they care for e-sports, right? And this is far from a full list of all the shit kespa has done. If anything kespa is a symbol of all that is currently wrong with progaming in Korea.
LOL if KeSPA offered license fees for BW proleague and Gretech refused, they can run proleague while waiting to get sued by Gretech, because chances are Gretech will lose in court. It is they who refused the offer, not KeSPA, who offered to pay.
I don't think Gretech can demand an unreasonable price for the license either. They showed them the books. This will probably end up in court but doesn't look good for Blizzard and their pet dog Gretech.
Whatever bullshit Blizzard/Gretech is pulling for whatever reasons, is making the entire scene unstable. It won't be easy to persuade sponors to keep investing in the scene that is plagued with uncertainty, legal troubles and bad publicity overall. Not to mention the players themselves won't be able to showcast all their skills now they have their own livelihood to worry about.
I can see no good coming out of this, and since when did any of you care about the intellectual rights of a company that hardly is a victim of the idea that their game is the only product that manages to keep an entire industry consisting of numerous broadcasting companies, corporate sponsors, internet sites, alive. The industy was alive because we watched through the good times and the bad. Supported the players. Skipped classes to watch our favourite players live. Spent hours on numerous internet communities discussing the more important issues going on in the scene. It was the people's interest in the scene that allowed the scene to grow. And now Blizzard/Gretech wants to take all that away.
You can justify that all you want. I say it's total fucking bullshit. Blizzard didn't the scene. They shouldn't be able to hold us all at a gun point just because they made the game. It was the players. The teams that paid them. The broadcasters who employed professional observers, map-makers, casters and commentators. The fans who stood by their players and teams, the fans who got the broadcasting companies the necessary raitings. The fans who got the internet sites to stay alive with their non-stop activity within it.
Many of us, in one small way or the other. Made this entire thing happen. E-Sports wouldn't ahve existed without Blizzard? Fuck that. It wouldn't have existed without a lot of things clicking just right. Why the fuck would anybody empathize Blizzard's needs to disregard all the blood, sweat and tears devoted to get E-Sports to the point it is at now, for whatever the fuck it is that they feel we as a community owe to them for making such a great fucking game. I thought the debt was over the moment I paid for the game. But no. They feel I must bow down and suck on their crotch everytime I want to enjoy the by-products of their game. Apparently I can't enjoy shit without having to grovel for their permission and paying them money EVERY FUCKING TIME I WANT TO WATCH IT ON TELEVISION.
Don't you get it? We're the customers. We sustained the scene with our interest, which the corporate sponsors deemed enough in return for the pleasure of watching this amazing thing that is not available anywhere else. Now Blizzard comes barging in and starts to make demands that is way over-board both in terms of control and fincially speaking. They're not just fucking with Kespa here. They are FUCKING WITH YOU. STOP BEING HAPPY THAT YOU'RE BEING VIOLATED ANALLY BY A BUNCH OF MONEY HUNGRY FUCKHEADS.
Blizzard is essentially saying you can't fucking enjoy E-Sports without us getting our pockets full. Want to play our game? Pay us. Want to play our game on television. Pay us. Want to watch our game on television. FUCKING PAY US.
What part the E-Sports scene in Korea being threatened, Blizzard's message that what we do with their products will never be legally viable without their permission, and all the work we as a community have put in, no matter how small or insignificant in the grand scope of things, being PISSED ON by those fuckers. Why are some retards here celebrating the presence of a dictatorship on something that was not perfect, but relatively free from all this bullshit that has nothing to do with the beauty of the industry? Why are these mindless drones essentially mumbling: "OH CREATOR OF STARCRAFT WE BOW DOWN TO THEE AND WE ALL GLAD TO MEET YOUR INCESSANT NEED FOR MORE MONEY AND POWER. FUCK KESPA AND FUCK BROOD WARS. WE WILL PAY ALL THE CASH. WE WILL PAY ALL THE INTELLECTUAL RIGHTS EVERY TIME WE PLAY YOUR GAME COMPETITIVELY."
I say fuck that. And fuck you if you think we owe Blizzard a cent for something they hardly touched on all these years and have benefitted greatly from. It's the ultimate betrayal, and you have some serious issues of sadomasochism if you are greatly interested in making Blizzard richer even if it means having to sacrifice on your part.
I usually don't get involved in these discussions (i do care and get quite pissed when i see the amount of ignorance some people display), but this time i just can't sit on the sideline.
Quoting Letmelose, because i wholeheartedly agree with all he said.
Also agree with what Zona said. Look at the bigger picture people, and you'll understand exactly how bad things will get if Activision-Blizzard gets to be in control of the e-Sports scene.
On September 01 2010 17:13 Letmelose wrote: Whatever bullshit Blizzard/Gretech is pulling for whatever reasons, is making the entire scene unstable. It won't be easy to persuade sponors to keep investing in the scene that is plagued with uncertainty, legal troubles and bad publicity overall. Not to mention the players themselves won't be able to showcast all their skills now they have their own livelihood to worry about.
I can see no good coming out of this, and since when did any of you care about the intellectual rights of a company that hardly is a victim of the idea that their game is the only product that manages to keep an entire industry consisting of numerous broadcasting companies, corporate sponsors, internet sites, alive. The industy was alive because we watched through the good times and the bad. Supported the players. Skipped classes to watch our favourite players live. Spent hours on numerous internet communities discussing the more important issues going on in the scene. It was the people's interest in the scene that allowed the scene to grow. And now Blizzard/Gretech wants to take all that away.
You can justify that all you want. I say it's total fucking bullshit. Blizzard didn't the scene. They shouldn't be able to hold us all at a gun point just because they made the game. It was the players. The teams that paid them. The broadcasters who employed professional observers, map-makers, casters and commentators. The fans who stood by their players and teams, the fans who got the broadcasting companies the necessary raitings. The fans who got the internet sites to stay alive with their non-stop activity within it.
Many of us, in one small way or the other. Made this entire thing happen. E-Sports wouldn't ahve existed without Blizzard? Fuck that. It wouldn't have existed without a lot of things clicking just right. Why the fuck would anybody empathize Blizzard's needs to disregard all the blood, sweat and tears devoted to get E-Sports to the point it is at now, for whatever the fuck it is that they feel we as a community owe to them for making such a great fucking game. I thought the debt was over the moment I paid for the game. But no. They feel I must bow down and suck on their crotch everytime I want to enjoy the by-products of their game. Apparently I can't enjoy shit without having to grovel for their permission and paying them money EVERY FUCKING TIME I WANT TO WATCH IT ON TELEVISION.
Don't you get it? We're the customers. We sustained the scene with our interest, which the corporate sponsors deemed enough in return for the pleasure of watching this amazing thing that is not available anywhere else. Now Blizzard comes barging in and starts to make demands that is way over-board both in terms of control and fincially speaking. They're not just fucking with Kespa here. They are FUCKING WITH YOU. STOP BEING HAPPY THAT YOU'RE BEING VIOLATED ANALLY BY A BUNCH OF MONEY HUNGRY FUCKHEADS.
Blizzard is essentially saying you can't fucking enjoy E-Sports without us getting our pockets full. Want to play our game? Pay us. Want to play our game on television. Pay us. Want to watch our game on television. FUCKING PAY US.
What part the E-Sports scene in Korea being threatened, Blizzard's message that what we do with their products will never be legally viable without their permission, and all the work we as a community have put in, no matter how small or insignificant in the grand scope of things, being PISSED ON by those fuckers. Why are some retards here celebrating the presence of a dictatorship on something that was not perfect, but relatively free from all this bullshit that has nothing to do with the beauty of the industry? Why are these mindless drones essentially mumbling: "OH CREATOR OF STARCRAFT WE BOW DOWN TO THEE AND WE ALL GLAD TO MEET YOUR INCESSANT NEED FOR MORE MONEY AND POWER. FUCK KESPA AND FUCK BROOD WARS. WE WILL PAY ALL THE CASH. WE WILL PAY ALL THE INTELLECTUAL RIGHTS EVERY TIME WE PLAY YOUR GAME COMPETITIVELY."
I say fuck that. And fuck you if you think we owe Blizzard a cent for something they hardly touched on all these years and have benefitted greatly from. It's the ultimate betrayal, and you have some serious issues of sadomasochism if you are greatly interested in making Blizzard richer even if it means having to sacrifice on your part.
It's a long post but I have to say I entirely agree with its sentiments. Of course those on TL who aren't BW fans don't feel personally affected by the events. But consider this - when Activision-Blizzard is putting out WC4 or SC3 and then shits on the SC2 scene how will you feel after you've invested in it as a player, a tournament organizer, or a fan? And keep in mind it'll be much easier for them to really close down on SC2 because they control every aspect of the game's multiplayer play, until BW.
Totally agree. There is room for both SC2 and BW to thrive. It's just plain greed that's making them try to shut down BW. I sense Activision's role in Blizzard's complete change of attitude.
edit- And now we find out Gom/Gretsch is going to charge 20$ a month for live stream and 30$ a month for VODs of the GSL. That just makes it even more clear to me who is being the most greedy here. Blizzard/Activision/Gretech are just out to suck the maximum amount of money out of eSports fans. Kespa were never this much about the money.
On September 01 2010 21:17 junkacc wrote: LOL if KeSPA offered license fees for BW proleague and Gretech refused, they can run proleague while waiting to get sued by Gretech, because chances are Gretech will lose in court. It is they who refused the offer, not KeSPA, who offered to pay.
That makes no sense. What's to say KeSPA's offer wasn't really fucking low and basically saying fuck you to Gretech? It's all about the amount.
On September 01 2010 17:13 Letmelose wrote: Whatever bullshit Blizzard/Gretech is pulling for whatever reasons, is making the entire scene unstable. It won't be easy to persuade sponors to keep investing in the scene that is plagued with uncertainty, legal troubles and bad publicity overall. Not to mention the players themselves won't be able to showcast all their skills now they have their own livelihood to worry about.
I can see no good coming out of this, and since when did any of you care about the intellectual rights of a company that hardly is a victim of the idea that their game is the only product that manages to keep an entire industry consisting of numerous broadcasting companies, corporate sponsors, internet sites, alive. The industy was alive because we watched through the good times and the bad. Supported the players. Skipped classes to watch our favourite players live. Spent hours on numerous internet communities discussing the more important issues going on in the scene. It was the people's interest in the scene that allowed the scene to grow. And now Blizzard/Gretech wants to take all that away.
You can justify that all you want. I say it's total fucking bullshit. Blizzard didn't the scene. They shouldn't be able to hold us all at a gun point just because they made the game. It was the players. The teams that paid them. The broadcasters who employed professional observers, map-makers, casters and commentators. The fans who stood by their players and teams, the fans who got the broadcasting companies the necessary raitings. The fans who got the internet sites to stay alive with their non-stop activity within it.
Many of us, in one small way or the other. Made this entire thing happen. E-Sports wouldn't ahve existed without Blizzard? Fuck that. It wouldn't have existed without a lot of things clicking just right. Why the fuck would anybody empathize Blizzard's needs to disregard all the blood, sweat and tears devoted to get E-Sports to the point it is at now, for whatever the fuck it is that they feel we as a community owe to them for making such a great fucking game. I thought the debt was over the moment I paid for the game. But no. They feel I must bow down and suck on their crotch everytime I want to enjoy the by-products of their game. Apparently I can't enjoy shit without having to grovel for their permission and paying them money EVERY FUCKING TIME I WANT TO WATCH IT ON TELEVISION.
Don't you get it? We're the customers. We sustained the scene with our interest, which the corporate sponsors deemed enough in return for the pleasure of watching this amazing thing that is not available anywhere else. Now Blizzard comes barging in and starts to make demands that is way over-board both in terms of control and fincially speaking. They're not just fucking with Kespa here. They are FUCKING WITH YOU. STOP BEING HAPPY THAT YOU'RE BEING VIOLATED ANALLY BY A BUNCH OF MONEY HUNGRY FUCKHEADS.
Blizzard is essentially saying you can't fucking enjoy E-Sports without us getting our pockets full. Want to play our game? Pay us. Want to play our game on television. Pay us. Want to watch our game on television. FUCKING PAY US.
What part the E-Sports scene in Korea being threatened, Blizzard's message that what we do with their products will never be legally viable without their permission, and all the work we as a community have put in, no matter how small or insignificant in the grand scope of things, being PISSED ON by those fuckers. Why are some retards here celebrating the presence of a dictatorship on something that was not perfect, but relatively free from all this bullshit that has nothing to do with the beauty of the industry? Why are these mindless drones essentially mumbling: "OH CREATOR OF STARCRAFT WE BOW DOWN TO THEE AND WE ALL GLAD TO MEET YOUR INCESSANT NEED FOR MORE MONEY AND POWER. FUCK KESPA AND FUCK BROOD WARS. WE WILL PAY ALL THE CASH. WE WILL PAY ALL THE INTELLECTUAL RIGHTS EVERY TIME WE PLAY YOUR GAME COMPETITIVELY."
I say fuck that. And fuck you if you think we owe Blizzard a cent for something they hardly touched on all these years and have benefitted greatly from. It's the ultimate betrayal, and you have some serious issues of sadomasochism if you are greatly interested in making Blizzard richer even if it means having to sacrifice on your part.
It's a long post but I have to say I entirely agree with its sentiments. Of course those on TL who aren't BW fans don't feel personally affected by the events. But consider this - when Activision-Blizzard is putting out WC4 or SC3 and then shits on the SC2 scene how will you feel after you've invested in it as a player, a tournament organizer, or a fan? And keep in mind it'll be much easier for them to really close down on SC2 because they control every aspect of the game's multiplayer play, until BW.
Totally agree. There is room for both SC2 and BW to thrive. It's just plain greed that's making them try to shut down BW. I sense Activision's role in Blizzard's complete change of attitude.
Greed, indeed. But let's not be naive here, it's universal greed and no one is 'innocent'. As has been stated, money makes the world go around. There wouldn't even be Proleague and SLs if there weren't chances for profit in them.
On September 01 2010 21:17 junkacc wrote: LOL if KeSPA offered license fees for BW proleague and Gretech refused, they can run proleague while waiting to get sued by Gretech, because chances are Gretech will lose in court. It is they who refused the offer, not KeSPA, who offered to pay.
That makes no sense. What's to say KeSPA's offer wasn't really fucking low and basically saying fuck you to Gretech? It's all about the amount.
However, Gretech, starting with the beginning of the 4th negotiation, has said that "We cannot sign off on the Proleague, since it will compete with the GSL",
On September 01 2010 21:17 junkacc wrote: LOL if KeSPA offered license fees for BW proleague and Gretech refused, they can run proleague while waiting to get sued by Gretech, because chances are Gretech will lose in court. It is they who refused the offer, not KeSPA, who offered to pay.
That makes no sense. What's to say KeSPA's offer wasn't really fucking low and basically saying fuck you to Gretech? It's all about the amount.
The details will come out in court. No use debating it here. The good news is, MSL and proleague will continue until this is resolved!!!
On September 01 2010 21:17 junkacc wrote: LOL if KeSPA offered license fees for BW proleague and Gretech refused, they can run proleague while waiting to get sued by Gretech, because chances are Gretech will lose in court. It is they who refused the offer, not KeSPA, who offered to pay.
That makes no sense. What's to say KeSPA's offer wasn't really fucking low and basically saying fuck you to Gretech? It's all about the amount.
The details will come out in court. No use debating it here. The good news is, MSL and proleague will continue until this is resolved!!!
On September 01 2010 17:13 Letmelose wrote: Whatever bullshit Blizzard/Gretech is pulling for whatever reasons, is making the entire scene unstable. It won't be easy to persuade sponors to keep investing in the scene that is plagued with uncertainty, legal troubles and bad publicity overall. Not to mention the players themselves won't be able to showcast all their skills now they have their own livelihood to worry about.
I can see no good coming out of this, and since when did any of you care about the intellectual rights of a company that hardly is a victim of the idea that their game is the only product that manages to keep an entire industry consisting of numerous broadcasting companies, corporate sponsors, internet sites, alive. The industy was alive because we watched through the good times and the bad. Supported the players. Skipped classes to watch our favourite players live. Spent hours on numerous internet communities discussing the more important issues going on in the scene. It was the people's interest in the scene that allowed the scene to grow. And now Blizzard/Gretech wants to take all that away.
You can justify that all you want. I say it's total fucking bullshit. Blizzard didn't the scene. They shouldn't be able to hold us all at a gun point just because they made the game. It was the players. The teams that paid them. The broadcasters who employed professional observers, map-makers, casters and commentators. The fans who stood by their players and teams, the fans who got the broadcasting companies the necessary raitings. The fans who got the internet sites to stay alive with their non-stop activity within it.
Many of us, in one small way or the other. Made this entire thing happen. E-Sports wouldn't ahve existed without Blizzard? Fuck that. It wouldn't have existed without a lot of things clicking just right. Why the fuck would anybody empathize Blizzard's needs to disregard all the blood, sweat and tears devoted to get E-Sports to the point it is at now, for whatever the fuck it is that they feel we as a community owe to them for making such a great fucking game. I thought the debt was over the moment I paid for the game. But no. They feel I must bow down and suck on their crotch everytime I want to enjoy the by-products of their game. Apparently I can't enjoy shit without having to grovel for their permission and paying them money EVERY FUCKING TIME I WANT TO WATCH IT ON TELEVISION.
Don't you get it? We're the customers. We sustained the scene with our interest, which the corporate sponsors deemed enough in return for the pleasure of watching this amazing thing that is not available anywhere else. Now Blizzard comes barging in and starts to make demands that is way over-board both in terms of control and fincially speaking. They're not just fucking with Kespa here. They are FUCKING WITH YOU. STOP BEING HAPPY THAT YOU'RE BEING VIOLATED ANALLY BY A BUNCH OF MONEY HUNGRY FUCKHEADS.
Blizzard is essentially saying you can't fucking enjoy E-Sports without us getting our pockets full. Want to play our game? Pay us. Want to play our game on television. Pay us. Want to watch our game on television. FUCKING PAY US.
What part the E-Sports scene in Korea being threatened, Blizzard's message that what we do with their products will never be legally viable without their permission, and all the work we as a community have put in, no matter how small or insignificant in the grand scope of things, being PISSED ON by those fuckers. Why are some retards here celebrating the presence of a dictatorship on something that was not perfect, but relatively free from all this bullshit that has nothing to do with the beauty of the industry? Why are these mindless drones essentially mumbling: "OH CREATOR OF STARCRAFT WE BOW DOWN TO THEE AND WE ALL GLAD TO MEET YOUR INCESSANT NEED FOR MORE MONEY AND POWER. FUCK KESPA AND FUCK BROOD WARS. WE WILL PAY ALL THE CASH. WE WILL PAY ALL THE INTELLECTUAL RIGHTS EVERY TIME WE PLAY YOUR GAME COMPETITIVELY."
I say fuck that. And fuck you if you think we owe Blizzard a cent for something they hardly touched on all these years and have benefitted greatly from. It's the ultimate betrayal, and you have some serious issues of sadomasochism if you are greatly interested in making Blizzard richer even if it means having to sacrifice on your part.
It's a long post but I have to say I entirely agree with its sentiments. Of course those on TL who aren't BW fans don't feel personally affected by the events. But consider this - when Activision-Blizzard is putting out WC4 or SC3 and then shits on the SC2 scene how will you feel after you've invested in it as a player, a tournament organizer, or a fan? And keep in mind it'll be much easier for them to really close down on SC2 because they control every aspect of the game's multiplayer play, until BW.
Totally agree. There is room for both SC2 and BW to thrive. It's just plain greed that's making them try to shut down BW. I sense Activision's role in Blizzard's complete change of attitude.
Greed, indeed. But let's not be naive here, it's universal greed and no one is 'innocent'. As has been stated, money makes the world go around. There wouldn't even be Proleague and SLs if there weren't chances for profit in them.
We don't know the figures but I'm pretty sure Kespa was never reeling in a lot of money. It seemed to me they genuinely did care about keeping the scene going. Blizzard used to be like that too- celebrating the BW scene and letting it go on without hindrance- the tone's completely changed now however.
Acti-Blizzard just sold 3 million copies of SC2 in one month- they must be raking it in. The money from the BW leagues will be small potatoes by comparison. Do they really need to go after Kespa and potentially destroy the BW leagues at this late stage?
On September 01 2010 21:17 junkacc wrote: LOL if KeSPA offered license fees for BW proleague and Gretech refused, they can run proleague while waiting to get sued by Gretech, because chances are Gretech will lose in court. It is they who refused the offer, not KeSPA, who offered to pay.
That makes no sense. What's to say KeSPA's offer wasn't really fucking low and basically saying fuck you to Gretech? It's all about the amount.
The details will come out in court. No use debating it here. The good news is, MSL and proleague will continue until this is resolved!!!
dude you better no be lying....source?
That's how it works in the U.S. Until there's a winner, it's business as usual. I don't know how Korean courts do it, though.
Also, in the U.S, this kind of matter takes years to resolve.
On September 01 2010 21:17 junkacc wrote: LOL if KeSPA offered license fees for BW proleague and Gretech refused, they can run proleague while waiting to get sued by Gretech, because chances are Gretech will lose in court. It is they who refused the offer, not KeSPA, who offered to pay.
That makes no sense. What's to say KeSPA's offer wasn't really fucking low and basically saying fuck you to Gretech? It's all about the amount.
The details will come out in court. No use debating it here. The good news is, MSL and proleague will continue until this is resolved!!!
dude you better no be lying....source?
That's how it works in the U.S. Until there's a winner, it's business as usual. I don't know how Korean courts do it, though.
Also, in the U.S, this kind of matter takes years to resolve.
On September 01 2010 21:17 junkacc wrote: LOL if KeSPA offered license fees for BW proleague and Gretech refused, they can run proleague while waiting to get sued by Gretech, because chances are Gretech will lose in court. It is they who refused the offer, not KeSPA, who offered to pay.
That makes no sense. What's to say KeSPA's offer wasn't really fucking low and basically saying fuck you to Gretech? It's all about the amount.
The details will come out in court. No use debating it here. The good news is, MSL and proleague will continue until this is resolved!!!
dude you better no be lying....source?
That's how it works in the U.S. Until there's a winner, it's business as usual. I don't know how Korean courts do it, though.
Also, in the U.S, this kind of matter takes years to resolve.
I know nothing about Korean law, but if this were the U.S. Blizz/Gre would file an injunction to stop the leagues dead in their tracks while they muddied everything up in the courts. Lets hope a similar thing cant happen in Korea.
An injunction takes time and in the event Gretech lose, they'll pay huge compensations. I think Gretech will need to consult with its Blizz masters to do that.
On September 01 2010 20:43 lololol wrote: Selling intellectual property rights to OGN and MBC, when they do not own and have never owned the rights to Starcraft, and even not aknowledging Blizzard has the rights to Starcraft at all during 3 years of negotiations. They boycotted GOM... yeah, that surely shows they care for e-sports, right? And this is far from a full list of all the shit kespa has done. If anything kespa is a symbol of all that is currently wrong with progaming in Korea.
Blizzard-Activision is the symbol of all that is wrong with profit driven game making in the world.
Which is worse?
Also, there's a difference between supporting and paying for damages because it'll compete with the GSL.
Someone clarify this for me: "Non-profit" can mask massive expenses in the form of large salaries. Are the 'higher-ups' in Kespa on large salaries?
I find people throw around the term "non-profit" without realising such organisations can make certain people extremely wealthy... even if they don't make a profit.
Whatever bullshit Blizzard/Gretech is pulling for whatever reasons, is making the entire scene unstable. It won't be easy to persuade sponors to keep investing in the scene that is plagued with uncertainty, legal troubles and bad publicity overall. Not to mention the players themselves won't be able to showcast all their skills now they have their own livelihood to worry about.
I can see no good coming out of this, and since when did any of you care about the intellectual rights of a company that hardly is a victim of the idea that their game is the only product that manages to keep an entire industry consisting of numerous broadcasting companies, corporate sponsors, internet sites, alive. The industy was alive because we watched through the good times and the bad. Supported the players. Skipped classes to watch our favourite players live. Spent hours on numerous internet communities discussing the more important issues going on in the scene. It was the people's interest in the scene that allowed the scene to grow. And now Blizzard/Gretech wants to take all that away.
You can justify that all you want. I say it's total fucking bullshit. Blizzard didn't the scene. They shouldn't be able to hold us all at a gun point just because they made the game. It was the players. The teams that paid them. The broadcasters who employed professional observers, map-makers, casters and commentators. The fans who stood by their players and teams, the fans who got the broadcasting companies the necessary raitings. The fans who got the internet sites to stay alive with their non-stop activity within it.
Many of us, in one small way or the other. Made this entire thing happen. E-Sports wouldn't ahve existed without Blizzard? Fuck that. It wouldn't have existed without a lot of things clicking just right. Why the fuck would anybody empathize Blizzard's needs to disregard all the blood, sweat and tears devoted to get E-Sports to the point it is at now, for whatever the fuck it is that they feel we as a community owe to them for making such a great fucking game. I thought the debt was over the moment I paid for the game. But no. They feel I must bow down and suck on their crotch everytime I want to enjoy the by-products of their game. Apparently I can't enjoy shit without having to grovel for their permission and paying them money EVERY FUCKING TIME I WANT TO WATCH IT ON TELEVISION.
Don't you get it? We're the customers. We sustained the scene with our interest, which the corporate sponsors deemed enough in return for the pleasure of watching this amazing thing that is not available anywhere else. Now Blizzard comes barging in and starts to make demands that is way over-board both in terms of control and fincially speaking. They're not just fucking with Kespa here. They are FUCKING WITH YOU. STOP BEING HAPPY THAT YOU'RE BEING VIOLATED ANALLY BY A BUNCH OF MONEY HUNGRY FUCKHEADS.
Blizzard is essentially saying you can't fucking enjoy E-Sports without us getting our pockets full. Want to play our game? Pay us. Want to play our game on television. Pay us. Want to watch our game on television. FUCKING PAY US.
What part the E-Sports scene in Korea being threatened, Blizzard's message that what we do with their products will never be legally viable without their permission, and all the work we as a community have put in, no matter how small or insignificant in the grand scope of things, being PISSED ON by those fuckers. Why are some retards here celebrating the presence of a dictatorship on something that was not perfect, but relatively free from all this bullshit that has nothing to do with the beauty of the industry? Why are these mindless drones essentially mumbling: "OH CREATOR OF STARCRAFT WE BOW DOWN TO THEE AND WE ALL GLAD TO MEET YOUR INCESSANT NEED FOR MORE MONEY AND POWER. FUCK KESPA AND FUCK BROOD WARS. WE WILL PAY ALL THE CASH. WE WILL PAY ALL THE INTELLECTUAL RIGHTS EVERY TIME WE PLAY YOUR GAME COMPETITIVELY."
I say fuck that. And fuck you if you think we owe Blizzard a cent for something they hardly touched on all these years and have benefitted greatly from. It's the ultimate betrayal, and you have some serious issues of sadomasochism if you are greatly interested in making Blizzard richer even if it means having to sacrifice on your part.
THIS.
sry my post isnt any longer, but there is nothing more to add for me
On September 01 2010 20:43 lololol wrote: Selling intellectual property rights to OGN and MBC, when they do not own and have never owned the rights to Starcraft, and even not aknowledging Blizzard has the rights to Starcraft at all during 3 years of negotiations. They boycotted GOM... yeah, that surely shows they care for e-sports, right? And this is far from a full list of all the shit kespa has done. If anything kespa is a symbol of all that is currently wrong with progaming in Korea.
Blizzard-Activision is the symbol of all that is wrong with profit driven game making in the world.
Which is worse?
Also, there's a difference between supporting and paying for damages because it'll compete with the GSL.
Amen.
I would say that Blizzard-Activision is an exemple of all what is wrong with profit driven big companies in the world. You would find the same shit in every single area, wether it's game making, oil companies, food industry, agriculture or banking.
Also, there is something really fucked up with the whole notion of Intellectual Property, theses days. When it's about protecting a writer and allowing him to make a living from his book, I support the concept, but if it's solely about big companies exploiting a franchise for 70 years and making a fucktone of money on the back of pretty much everybody, there is something which is not really working.
On September 01 2010 23:00 AssiRoyal wrote: On September 01 2010 17:13 Letmelose wrote: + Show Spoiler +
Whatever bullshit Blizzard/Gretech is pulling for whatever reasons, is making the entire scene unstable. It won't be easy to persuade sponors to keep investing in the scene that is plagued with uncertainty, legal troubles and bad publicity overall. Not to mention the players themselves won't be able to showcast all their skills now they have their own livelihood to worry about.
I can see no good coming out of this, and since when did any of you care about the intellectual rights of a company that hardly is a victim of the idea that their game is the only product that manages to keep an entire industry consisting of numerous broadcasting companies, corporate sponsors, internet sites, alive. The industy was alive because we watched through the good times and the bad. Supported the players. Skipped classes to watch our favourite players live. Spent hours on numerous internet communities discussing the more important issues going on in the scene. It was the people's interest in the scene that allowed the scene to grow. And now Blizzard/Gretech wants to take all that away.
You can justify that all you want. I say it's total fucking bullshit. Blizzard didn't the scene. They shouldn't be able to hold us all at a gun point just because they made the game. It was the players. The teams that paid them. The broadcasters who employed professional observers, map-makers, casters and commentators. The fans who stood by their players and teams, the fans who got the broadcasting companies the necessary raitings. The fans who got the internet sites to stay alive with their non-stop activity within it.
Many of us, in one small way or the other. Made this entire thing happen. E-Sports wouldn't ahve existed without Blizzard? Fuck that. It wouldn't have existed without a lot of things clicking just right. Why the fuck would anybody empathize Blizzard's needs to disregard all the blood, sweat and tears devoted to get E-Sports to the point it is at now, for whatever the fuck it is that they feel we as a community owe to them for making such a great fucking game. I thought the debt was over the moment I paid for the game. But no. They feel I must bow down and suck on their crotch everytime I want to enjoy the by-products of their game. Apparently I can't enjoy shit without having to grovel for their permission and paying them money EVERY FUCKING TIME I WANT TO WATCH IT ON TELEVISION.
Don't you get it? We're the customers. We sustained the scene with our interest, which the corporate sponsors deemed enough in return for the pleasure of watching this amazing thing that is not available anywhere else. Now Blizzard comes barging in and starts to make demands that is way over-board both in terms of control and fincially speaking. They're not just fucking with Kespa here. They are FUCKING WITH YOU. STOP BEING HAPPY THAT YOU'RE BEING VIOLATED ANALLY BY A BUNCH OF MONEY HUNGRY FUCKHEADS.
Blizzard is essentially saying you can't fucking enjoy E-Sports without us getting our pockets full. Want to play our game? Pay us. Want to play our game on television. Pay us. Want to watch our game on television. FUCKING PAY US.
What part the E-Sports scene in Korea being threatened, Blizzard's message that what we do with their products will never be legally viable without their permission, and all the work we as a community have put in, no matter how small or insignificant in the grand scope of things, being PISSED ON by those fuckers. Why are some retards here celebrating the presence of a dictatorship on something that was not perfect, but relatively free from all this bullshit that has nothing to do with the beauty of the industry? Why are these mindless drones essentially mumbling: "OH CREATOR OF STARCRAFT WE BOW DOWN TO THEE AND WE ALL GLAD TO MEET YOUR INCESSANT NEED FOR MORE MONEY AND POWER. FUCK KESPA AND FUCK BROOD WARS. WE WILL PAY ALL THE CASH. WE WILL PAY ALL THE INTELLECTUAL RIGHTS EVERY TIME WE PLAY YOUR GAME COMPETITIVELY."
I say fuck that. And fuck you if you think we owe Blizzard a cent for something they hardly touched on all these years and have benefitted greatly from. It's the ultimate betrayal, and you have some serious issues of sadomasochism if you are greatly interested in making Blizzard richer even if it means having to sacrifice on your part.
THIS.
sry my post isnt any longer, but there is nothing more to add for me
Yes, that was pretty much the smartest post I have seen on this forum, all time. I wish everybody could read and understand that.
On September 01 2010 21:17 junkacc wrote: LOL if KeSPA offered license fees for BW proleague and Gretech refused, they can run proleague while waiting to get sued by Gretech, because chances are Gretech will lose in court. It is they who refused the offer, not KeSPA, who offered to pay.
That makes no sense. What's to say KeSPA's offer wasn't really fucking low and basically saying fuck you to Gretech? It's all about the amount.
The details will come out in court. No use debating it here. The good news is, MSL and proleague will continue until this is resolved!!!
Source or it didn't happen. I couldn't find any article relating to this particular reason on fomos or edailysports.
On September 01 2010 23:00 AssiRoyal wrote: On September 01 2010 17:13 Letmelose wrote: + Show Spoiler +
Whatever bullshit Blizzard/Gretech is pulling for whatever reasons, is making the entire scene unstable. It won't be easy to persuade sponors to keep investing in the scene that is plagued with uncertainty, legal troubles and bad publicity overall. Not to mention the players themselves won't be able to showcast all their skills now they have their own livelihood to worry about.
I can see no good coming out of this, and since when did any of you care about the intellectual rights of a company that hardly is a victim of the idea that their game is the only product that manages to keep an entire industry consisting of numerous broadcasting companies, corporate sponsors, internet sites, alive. The industy was alive because we watched through the good times and the bad. Supported the players. Skipped classes to watch our favourite players live. Spent hours on numerous internet communities discussing the more important issues going on in the scene. It was the people's interest in the scene that allowed the scene to grow. And now Blizzard/Gretech wants to take all that away.
You can justify that all you want. I say it's total fucking bullshit. Blizzard didn't the scene. They shouldn't be able to hold us all at a gun point just because they made the game. It was the players. The teams that paid them. The broadcasters who employed professional observers, map-makers, casters and commentators. The fans who stood by their players and teams, the fans who got the broadcasting companies the necessary raitings. The fans who got the internet sites to stay alive with their non-stop activity within it.
Many of us, in one small way or the other. Made this entire thing happen. E-Sports wouldn't ahve existed without Blizzard? Fuck that. It wouldn't have existed without a lot of things clicking just right. Why the fuck would anybody empathize Blizzard's needs to disregard all the blood, sweat and tears devoted to get E-Sports to the point it is at now, for whatever the fuck it is that they feel we as a community owe to them for making such a great fucking game. I thought the debt was over the moment I paid for the game. But no. They feel I must bow down and suck on their crotch everytime I want to enjoy the by-products of their game. Apparently I can't enjoy shit without having to grovel for their permission and paying them money EVERY FUCKING TIME I WANT TO WATCH IT ON TELEVISION.
Don't you get it? We're the customers. We sustained the scene with our interest, which the corporate sponsors deemed enough in return for the pleasure of watching this amazing thing that is not available anywhere else. Now Blizzard comes barging in and starts to make demands that is way over-board both in terms of control and fincially speaking. They're not just fucking with Kespa here. They are FUCKING WITH YOU. STOP BEING HAPPY THAT YOU'RE BEING VIOLATED ANALLY BY A BUNCH OF MONEY HUNGRY FUCKHEADS.
Blizzard is essentially saying you can't fucking enjoy E-Sports without us getting our pockets full. Want to play our game? Pay us. Want to play our game on television. Pay us. Want to watch our game on television. FUCKING PAY US.
What part the E-Sports scene in Korea being threatened, Blizzard's message that what we do with their products will never be legally viable without their permission, and all the work we as a community have put in, no matter how small or insignificant in the grand scope of things, being PISSED ON by those fuckers. Why are some retards here celebrating the presence of a dictatorship on something that was not perfect, but relatively free from all this bullshit that has nothing to do with the beauty of the industry? Why are these mindless drones essentially mumbling: "OH CREATOR OF STARCRAFT WE BOW DOWN TO THEE AND WE ALL GLAD TO MEET YOUR INCESSANT NEED FOR MORE MONEY AND POWER. FUCK KESPA AND FUCK BROOD WARS. WE WILL PAY ALL THE CASH. WE WILL PAY ALL THE INTELLECTUAL RIGHTS EVERY TIME WE PLAY YOUR GAME COMPETITIVELY."
I say fuck that. And fuck you if you think we owe Blizzard a cent for something they hardly touched on all these years and have benefitted greatly from. It's the ultimate betrayal, and you have some serious issues of sadomasochism if you are greatly interested in making Blizzard richer even if it means having to sacrifice on your part.
THIS.
sry my post isnt any longer, but there is nothing more to add for me
Yes, that was pretty much the smartest post I have seen on this forum, all time. I wish everybody could read and understand that.
Yes, this is one of the smartest posts I have ever read of any forums. This needs to be on the frontpage and everybody should be forced to click a button to acknowledge that they have read it or else they cant proceed.
Yeah, I take back what I said now after reading the OP with the more news added. GOM and Blizz are being the true dick heads here. This is just terrible. It makes me sad.
On September 01 2010 21:17 junkacc wrote: LOL if KeSPA offered license fees for BW proleague and Gretech refused, they can run proleague while waiting to get sued by Gretech, because chances are Gretech will lose in court. It is they who refused the offer, not KeSPA, who offered to pay.
That makes no sense. What's to say KeSPA's offer wasn't really fucking low and basically saying fuck you to Gretech? It's all about the amount.
The details will come out in court. No use debating it here. The good news is, MSL and proleague will continue until this is resolved!!!
Source or it didn't happen. I couldn't find any article relating to this particular reason on fomos or edailysports.
이런 상황에서 협회 측은 프로리그 지적재산권 협상 타결 여부에 관계없이 프로리그 10-11 시즌을 강행하자는 의견이 제기됐고, 이를 강행할 계획인 것으로 알려졌다. 복수의 업계 관계자들에 따르면 협회는 일단 프로리그 10-11 시즌을 당초 예정대로 진행하고, 추후 그래텍에서 지적재산권과 관련해 문제를 제기할 경우 그에 따른 후속 대책을 마련하는 한편 최악의 경우 리그가 중단되는 사태가 발생한다면 게임단 해체까지도 불사하겠다는 내용이 오고 간 것으로 확인됐다.
On September 01 2010 23:24 Seam wrote: Maybe it's because I'm fairly new here, but Kespa has had YEARS to pay Blizzard so this wouldn't happen.
And Blizzard didn't even ask for much...they gave Gomtv rights for 1$...
So how is Blizzard in the wrong for finally being pissed off for being spat in the face for years?
I love it when people like you crash into a thread, not reading anything and hop to the last page instead to post their bullshit. Your question has been answered so many times. Read the fucking conditions that OGN had to agree with to come to an understanding with Gretech. Or just read the last page with letmeloses brillant post. Or just read the OP and understand it. Is it so hard?
On September 01 2010 23:24 Seam wrote: Maybe it's because I'm fairly new here, but Kespa has had YEARS to pay Blizzard so this wouldn't happen.
And Blizzard didn't even ask for much...they gave Gomtv rights for 1$...
So how is Blizzard in the wrong for finally being pissed off for being spat in the face for years?
Er..... You should probably try digging up some of the older threads.
Would love to, not gonna lie, I'm not up to date on all this...
Any chance you could point me in the right direction?
I love it when people like you crash into a thread, not reading anything and hop to the last page instead to post their bullshit. Your question has been answered so many times. Read the fucking conditions that OGN had to agree with to come to an understanding with Gretech. Or just read the last page with letmeloses brillant post. Or just read the OP and understand it. Is it so hard?
Read to page 9, which included 9 pages of "OMG BLIZZARD SUCKS AND ONLY WANTS MONEY!!" and "OMG KESPA SUCKS AND ONLY WANTS MONEY!!"
So forgive me for not knowing the whole situation.
I love it when people like you crash into a thread, not reading anything and hop to the last page instead to post their bullshit. Your question has been answered so many times. Read the fucking conditions that OGN had to agree with to come to an understanding with Gretech. Or just read the last page with letmeloses brillant post. Or just read the OP and understand it. Is it so hard?
Read to page 9, which included 9 pages of "OMG BLIZZARD SUCKS AND ONLY WANTS MONEY!!" and "OMG KESPA SUCKS AND ONLY WANTS MONEY!!"
So forgive me for not knowing the whole situation.
I just gave you a hint with my post where you should start. So do it.
On September 01 2010 23:24 Seam wrote: Maybe it's because I'm fairly new here, but Kespa has had YEARS to pay Blizzard so this wouldn't happen.
And Blizzard didn't even ask for much...they gave Gomtv rights for 1$...
So how is Blizzard in the wrong for finally being pissed off for being spat in the face for years?
Er..... You should probably try digging up some of the older threads.
Would love to, not gonna lie, I'm not up to date on all this...
Any chance you could point me in the right direction?
I love it when people like you crash into a thread, not reading anything and hop to the last page instead to post their bullshit. Your question has been answered so many times. Read the fucking conditions that OGN had to agree with to come to an understanding with Gretech. Or just read the last page with letmeloses brillant post. Or just read the OP and understand it. Is it so hard?
Read to page 9, which included 9 pages of "OMG BLIZZARD SUCKS AND ONLY WANTS MONEY!!" and "OMG KESPA SUCKS AND ONLY WANTS MONEY!!"
So forgive me for not knowing the whole situation.
I just gave you a hint with my post where you should start. So do it.
It seems so odd to me that everyone is picking one side or the other when everyone involved seems to be in the wrong, except for the gamers and the viewers.
KESPA built SC:BW into a huge money-making venture. (even though they are nonprofit there are obviously a lot of people making a lot of money off of BW) You could say that Blizzard ignored them all this time as though it's a bad thing, but by not demanding IP fees at the start it allowed the whole system to get off the ground without a crazy overhead. You can see Blizz as a benevolent giver who now wants a cut, or as a lazy profiteer trying to cash in once all the work has been done (people will choose one of these options based on their previous bias).
KESPA has proven itself historically to be a great boon for esports, but lets be serious we all know that they are also self-serving and eager to keep the game to themselves. They have charged broadcasting fees and boycotted GOM as well. They have always acted like a dictator and now that they power has seemed to shift they are unwilling to adapt.
GOM clearly wants SC2 to succeed so badly because they weren't ever able to get in with SC:BW because KESPA wouldn't let them. Now they hold the cards and they're being vindictive assholes right back rather than setting an appropriate example of how everything should be able to get along.
Rather than all of these idiots arguing with each other about whose esports dick is bigger they should sit down and try to work together for everyones' benefit. KESPA seems willing to negotiate some type of fee for IP so they need to work that shit out. We don't really know what the most contentious issues are for the parties involved. Whether it is the cost of the rights, the scheduling, the advertising, the players, etc. It seems to me with genuine interest in making a deal it should get done pretty simply. Scheduling isn't hard to work out, the players can pick what they want to play, mutual advertising will only build a bigger following as there is bound to be crossover between new SC2 fans to BW and BW fans into SC2 as a natural thing.
My point is just that while they all say there's nothing in it for any of them to help each other I think it's a lie. If they all get together and work together everyone will benefit as well as build goodwill with the fans that make the business possible in the first place.
Don't be mad with just Blizzard, or just KESPA, or just GOM. They're all wrong and it takes all of them being stubborn assholes to keep this thing ruining a potentially wonderful situation for all of US. As the saying goes it takes two to tango. There is not enough genuine interest yet from ANY party (imo) to actually settle something, it seems to me that KESPA will have to make the first concessions because they don't hold the power in this situation, but we can only speculate at what the end result will be.
Let's hope that we get to keep all the SC:BW we've come to love and that we get SC2 so that it can develop into something we love just as much.
On August 31 2010 23:53 Nesto wrote: what the hell...
Gretech... you think GSL would survive if you forcibly stop the proleague and force the disbanding of the proleague teams? imagine the outrage..
and for Kespa... simply fuck off... it just seems they only care about the money they make with SCBW and want to make sure, that they don't have any competition from GSL / SC2...
kespa is nonprofit. Kespa is probably saying "fuck you" to sc2 cause they have emotional issues against Blizzard.
"KESPA" is only non-profit because its a giant ad campaign for all the sponsor companies; they aren't in it to make money because the point is to make money on products advertised
On September 01 2010 23:24 Seam wrote: Maybe it's because I'm fairly new here, but Kespa has had YEARS to pay Blizzard so this wouldn't happen.
And Blizzard didn't even ask for much...they gave Gomtv rights for 1$...
So how is Blizzard in the wrong for finally being pissed off for being spat in the face for years?
Er..... You should probably try digging up some of the older threads.
Would love to, not gonna lie, I'm not up to date on all this...
Any chance you could point me in the right direction?
I love it when people like you crash into a thread, not reading anything and hop to the last page instead to post their bullshit. Your question has been answered so many times. Read the fucking conditions that OGN had to agree with to come to an understanding with Gretech. Or just read the last page with letmeloses brillant post. Or just read the OP and understand it. Is it so hard?
Read to page 9, which included 9 pages of "OMG BLIZZARD SUCKS AND ONLY WANTS MONEY!!" and "OMG KESPA SUCKS AND ONLY WANTS MONEY!!"
So forgive me for not knowing the whole situation.
I just gave you a hint with my post where you should start. So do it.
He's american... enough said.
I apologize for not being able to choose where I was born =(.
I'll read more into it next time, didn't expect to be insulted for where I live after being willing to learn more.
I support KESPA 100%...They are a non profit organisation doing their best to bring fans great entertainment..They've agreed to pay royalties, just like they did with blizzard (kespa V blizzard) but it seems like Gretech is towing the same line as blizzard did.
Such a shame, Gretech even wants us to pay 50dollars just to watch games online. That's like buying another copy of SC2.
I really dislike where this is going..I'm sure that's all blizzard/gretech wants to do..Take it to the courts and make a nonprofit organisation bleed money in legal fees.
Great strategy...if they keep it up then there will no longer be bw progame teams and the pros will switch to sc2....hahahaha
On September 01 2010 23:24 Seam wrote: Maybe it's because I'm fairly new here, but Kespa has had YEARS to pay Blizzard so this wouldn't happen.
And Blizzard didn't even ask for much...they gave Gomtv rights for 1$...
So how is Blizzard in the wrong for finally being pissed off for being spat in the face for years?
Er..... You should probably try digging up some of the older threads.
Would love to, not gonna lie, I'm not up to date on all this...
Any chance you could point me in the right direction?
I love it when people like you crash into a thread, not reading anything and hop to the last page instead to post their bullshit. Your question has been answered so many times. Read the fucking conditions that OGN had to agree with to come to an understanding with Gretech. Or just read the last page with letmeloses brillant post. Or just read the OP and understand it. Is it so hard?
Read to page 9, which included 9 pages of "OMG BLIZZARD SUCKS AND ONLY WANTS MONEY!!" and "OMG KESPA SUCKS AND ONLY WANTS MONEY!!"
So forgive me for not knowing the whole situation.
I just gave you a hint with my post where you should start. So do it.
He's american... enough said.
I apologize for not being able to choose where I was born =(.
I'll read more into it next time, didn't expect to be insulted for where I live after being willing to learn more.
Sorry, but was fed up with the same uninformed posts popping up over and over again, always with simpleton logic that betrays how uninformed and simple most poster's thought process is. And it doesn't help that your country is dominated by 5 second soundbites and dumb movies that portray everything in disneyland black and white good guy bad guy terms.
On August 31 2010 23:53 Nesto wrote: what the hell...
Gretech... you think GSL would survive if you forcibly stop the proleague and force the disbanding of the proleague teams? imagine the outrage..
and for Kespa... simply fuck off... it just seems they only care about the money they make with SCBW and want to make sure, that they don't have any competition from GSL / SC2...
kespa is nonprofit. Kespa is probably saying "fuck you" to sc2 cause they have emotional issues against Blizzard.
"KESPA" is only non-profit because its a giant ad campaign for all the sponsor companies; they aren't in it to make money because the point is to make money on products advertised
Yes. But KeSPA, as an organization that makes everything happen, is non-profit.
On September 01 2010 23:48 Meekee wrote: GOM clearly wants SC2 to succeed so badly because they weren't ever able to get in with SC:BW because KESPA wouldn't let them. Now they hold the cards and they're being vindictive assholes right back rather than setting an appropriate example of how everything should be able to get along.
wat
gom can get their own players and start their own leagues without trying to remove bw, but instead they screw over all the current teams, players, broadcasting stations, fans and everyone else involved in esports because of their greed. they think they have a right to dismantle the scene and leech off all the hard work just because their game uses the same name with a 2 slapped on it.
wow wtf GOM if the update is true. they're just getting payback for kespa's douchebaggery and stiff arm their way into the korean esports market.
it looks like there really is no way to settle this other than in the courtroom. the courts could be really interesting as they could rule that having a sole holder of casting/IP rights for BW illegal or just totally shutdown the proleague. who knows.
gahahahahah that is horrible news. If I read correctly, Kespa is willing to pay and Gretech is still refusing? wtf wtf wtf!
The GSL news doesn't make things better either. So no proleague AND I can't watch SC2 because I'm not freaking paying to stay up to 6am in the morning to watch.
This is like reading a High school drama. Kespa in the past was like "no you don't" to Gretech and boycotted GomTv because they wanted control. Now the shoes on the other foot and Gretech's like "Paybacks a bitch huh" and are now trying to control everything.
There is a lot more too it but i can't help but laugh and be angry at the same time when i read this.
Next time in the Kespa V Gretech show... the news that you may need to take out a small loan to watch GSL and more!
The thing is Kespa wants to just say, "Heres the money for IP, let us do whatever we want!". Both Blizzard and Gretech can't accept that because they want complete moderation of the e-sport scene and they know that Kespa has a large enough influential factor for being the dominant host of major tournaments for the last 12 years and anything they do can damage Blizzard/Gretech's interest.
The real mastermind behind the scene is actually blizzard. I would assume their contract with gretech is similar to the one they made for UDE for their Card game. Meaning, they will give broadcasting right for maybe next 5-10 years to Gretech, while having conditions/goals for Gretech to meet with the threat of not renewing the contract if the goals/conditions are not met. It is not to say the conditions/goals are ill-intentioned because I would imagine they include things like "Must have an English broadcaster/stream for every major tournament" or "Each league must allow foreigners to attend without the need of a korean pro-gaming team" or something like that.
All in all, this is a battle of old vs the new. Kespa's old way of operating of alienating the masses in support of the few elites (12 pro-gaming team) vs Blizzard/Gretech's vision of esport where everyone can participate and everyone gets their 5min of fame. Which one is better? I don't know, as Kespa's method truly defines who's the best player in the world, while Blizzard/Gretech aims towards natural talent and exposure to the masses as every player have equal chance to make it to the top.
Coupled with GSL costs ranging from 30 bucks for VODS watchable for one season and 20 bucks for the live stream, which I asume is only for the current season (who knows if costs will scale for finals and such), things are looking grimmer than ever for the average joe esports fan.
This is bullshit. There's no way Actiblizz+gretech can even support anything near the magnitude of 3 major leagues and 12 all inclusive teams, there just isn't money enough from their part.
I don't even need to state how fucking greedy they are. KeSPA did this shit for free, all they did was advertise their other products. I wonder what other products actiblizz and gretech advertise.
On September 02 2010 01:35 MaYuu wrote: This is bullshit. There's no way Actiblizz+gretech can even support anything near the magnitude of 3 major leagues and 12 all inclusive teams, there just isn't money enough from their part.
I don't even need to state how fucking greedy they are. KeSPA did this shit for free, all they did was advertise their other products. I wonder what other products actiblizz and gretech advertise.
They can't and they don't want to. Gretech/Blizzard want everyone to have a fair chance @ the top. The 12 pro-gaming teams are like the elite training school, and have a significant advantage over the normal players.
This makes me so fucking sad. Does that until this resolve is disputed, we won't be seeing MSL, OSL, or PL for a while? (hopefully not forever). I can't believe the game that is the #1 esports game can possibly fucking die to greedy scums. This makes me so sad and makes me appreciate every live BW moment more and more.
I can't believe some people are actually supporting Blizzard here. It's not like SC2 would prosper right after BW's death...
I'm sure in the future they'll just build a broodwar clone call it: "sudden real time strategy" claim it's superior to broodwar and force the pros to play it instead.
On September 02 2010 01:35 MaYuu wrote: This is bullshit. There's no way Actiblizz+gretech can even support anything near the magnitude of 3 major leagues and 12 all inclusive teams, there just isn't money enough from their part.
I don't even need to state how fucking greedy they are. KeSPA did this shit for free, all they did was advertise their other products. I wonder what other products actiblizz and gretech advertise.
They can't and they don't want to. Gretech/Blizzard want everyone to have a fair chance @ the top. The 12 pro-gaming teams are like the elite training school, and have a significant advantage over the normal players.
yes. they're gonna go back to the days where "progamers" sit in cramped apartments and eat ramen and 3 minute instant foods all fucking day.
that's what they want lol, "prize hunters", not "progamers". This is, after all, esporst 2.0.
On September 02 2010 01:35 MaYuu wrote: This is bullshit. There's no way Actiblizz+gretech can even support anything near the magnitude of 3 major leagues and 12 all inclusive teams, there just isn't money enough from their part.
I don't even need to state how fucking greedy they are. KeSPA did this shit for free, all they did was advertise their other products. I wonder what other products actiblizz and gretech advertise.
They can't and they don't want to. Gretech/Blizzard want everyone to have a fair chance @ the top. The 12 pro-gaming teams are like the elite training school, and have a significant advantage over the normal players.
yes. they're gonna go back to the days where "progamers" sit in cramped apartments and eat ramen and 3 minute instant foods all fucking day.
that's what they want lol, "prize hunters", not "progamers". This is, after all, esporst 2.0.
Seriously, I HIGHLY doubt that SC:BW players would want to make a switch to SC2. Come on these players have a passion for BW, they really LOVE the game. Now Blizzard/Gretach is forcing SC2 on them, they won't enjoy it as much as BW, they would all end up not liking the game and be jobless....
On September 02 2010 01:35 MaYuu wrote: This is bullshit. There's no way Actiblizz+gretech can even support anything near the magnitude of 3 major leagues and 12 all inclusive teams, there just isn't money enough from their part.
I don't even need to state how fucking greedy they are. KeSPA did this shit for free, all they did was advertise their other products. I wonder what other products actiblizz and gretech advertise.
They can't and they don't want to. Gretech/Blizzard want everyone to have a fair chance @ the top. The 12 pro-gaming teams are like the elite training school, and have a significant advantage over the normal players.
yes. they're gonna go back to the days where "progamers" sit in cramped apartments and eat ramen and 3 minute instant foods all fucking day.
that's what they want lol, "prize hunters", not "progamers". This is, after all, esporst 2.0.
do you REALLY want a proleague?
actually yes. some of my fav moments watching BW have came from Proleague. in particular - FBH.
On September 02 2010 01:35 MaYuu wrote: This is bullshit. There's no way Actiblizz+gretech can even support anything near the magnitude of 3 major leagues and 12 all inclusive teams, there just isn't money enough from their part.
I don't even need to state how fucking greedy they are. KeSPA did this shit for free, all they did was advertise their other products. I wonder what other products actiblizz and gretech advertise.
They can't and they don't want to. Gretech/Blizzard want everyone to have a fair chance @ the top. The 12 pro-gaming teams are like the elite training school, and have a significant advantage over the normal players.
yes. they're gonna go back to the days where "progamers" sit in cramped apartments and eat ramen and 3 minute instant foods all fucking day.
that's what they want lol, "prize hunters", not "progamers". This is, after all, esporst 2.0.
do you REALLY want a proleague?
actually yes. some of my fav moments watching BW have came from Proleague. in particular - FBH.
On September 02 2010 01:35 MaYuu wrote: This is bullshit. There's no way Actiblizz+gretech can even support anything near the magnitude of 3 major leagues and 12 all inclusive teams, there just isn't money enough from their part.
I don't even need to state how fucking greedy they are. KeSPA did this shit for free, all they did was advertise their other products. I wonder what other products actiblizz and gretech advertise.
They can't and they don't want to. Gretech/Blizzard want everyone to have a fair chance @ the top. The 12 pro-gaming teams are like the elite training school, and have a significant advantage over the normal players.
I heard in a lot of competitive games (both physical and video-games) have these "Professional Teams" where you train a specially-chosen group of players to be way better than anyone else so you can win the majority of games, and eventually be crowned the best of said game. I don't remember all competitions being "Everyone Play" or Inter-mural. I mean anyone with a brain could tell that would suck. Its good SC2 isn't setting up fo.... oh waaaaiiiiittttt.
Of course this is only from Kespa's side. But even so, Gretch does have a point. Given that KESPA boycotted GOMTV before, unless they agree to otherwiese, KESPA could easily schedule tournaments to conflict with GSL times to screw with coverage.
On September 02 2010 02:50 Falling wrote: Of course this is only from Kespa's side. But even so, Gretch does have a point. Given that KESPA boycotted GOMTV before, unless they agree to otherwiese, KESPA could easily schedule tournaments to conflict with GSL times to screw with coverage.
And they act on that by not signing it and saying "fuck you" like children?
Yeah, KeSPA acted like douchebags in the past but Gretech is just responding back showing that they're at KeSPA's level now. Fans? Fuck them. It's all about our petty, retarded conflicts in the past.
If that was the real problem then they would simply have a condition where no Proleague matches can be on at the same time as the GSL. I think that is reasonable tbh.
On September 01 2010 23:24 Seam wrote: Maybe it's because I'm fairly new here, but Kespa has had YEARS to pay Blizzard so this wouldn't happen.
And Blizzard didn't even ask for much...they gave Gomtv rights for 1$...
So how is Blizzard in the wrong for finally being pissed off for being spat in the face for years?
Er..... You should probably try digging up some of the older threads.
Would love to, not gonna lie, I'm not up to date on all this...
Any chance you could point me in the right direction?
I love it when people like you crash into a thread, not reading anything and hop to the last page instead to post their bullshit. Your question has been answered so many times. Read the fucking conditions that OGN had to agree with to come to an understanding with Gretech. Or just read the last page with letmeloses brillant post. Or just read the OP and understand it. Is it so hard?
Read to page 9, which included 9 pages of "OMG BLIZZARD SUCKS AND ONLY WANTS MONEY!!" and "OMG KESPA SUCKS AND ONLY WANTS MONEY!!"
So forgive me for not knowing the whole situation.
I just gave you a hint with my post where you should start. So do it.
He's american... enough said.
I apologize for not being able to choose where I was born =(.
I'll read more into it next time, didn't expect to be insulted for where I live after being willing to learn more.
Sorry, but was fed up with the same uninformed posts popping up over and over again, always with simpleton logic that betrays how uninformed and simple most poster's thought process is. And it doesn't help that your country is dominated by 5 second soundbites and dumb movies that portray everything in disneyland black and white good guy bad guy terms.
You didn't find it at all ironic as you were typing that that you were making a huge sweeping generalization about the USA, that when one poster didn't know wtf was going on before posting your knee jerk response was to stereotype one of the largest countries on the planet, and your big complaint was that Americans like to resort to ignorant oversimplifications? I really hope you're trolling, bro.
Fuck you Blizzard god fucking damnit. I really was willing to give pro SC2 a try and follow it (but not for a monthly fee lol) even if I like BW better but no fucking way now. I'm not sure I would have motivated myself to start watching SC2 right now had BW died on its own, let alone after Blizz/Gretech strangling it to death so that its viewership doesn't detract from SC2. Maybe KeSPA's no martyr but this is way too many things stacking up against Blizz/Gretech for me to see two real sides to this story.
Seriously that bit about charging people just to watch vods, let alone streams, of pro SC2 will damage the SC2 scene way more than BW ever could. Can you imagine when you first learned about pro SCBW in South Korea if you learned you had to pay $30 to be able to watch vods? Not even hardcore fans are going to be willing to pay for vods and streams, let alone newcomers. The conversation will be like: "Hey, I heard they have pro-SC2 in South Korea." "Oh really, that's kind of cool I guess, I wonder if there are videos online or something we can check out." "Here it is, oh uh it says here you have to pay a $30/month fee to be able to watch SC2 vids." "Haha what? Fuck that"
Coupled with GSL costs ranging from 30 bucks for VODS watchable for one season and 20 bucks for the live stream, which I asume is only for the current season (who knows if costs will scale for finals and such), things are looking grimmer than ever for the average joe esports fan.
On September 02 2010 01:35 MaYuu wrote: This is bullshit. There's no way Actiblizz+gretech can even support anything near the magnitude of 3 major leagues and 12 all inclusive teams, there just isn't money enough from their part.
I don't even need to state how fucking greedy they are. KeSPA did this shit for free, all they did was advertise their other products. I wonder what other products actiblizz and gretech advertise.
They can't and they don't want to. Gretech/Blizzard want everyone to have a fair chance @ the top. The 12 pro-gaming teams are like the elite training school, and have a significant advantage over the normal players.
yes. they're gonna go back to the days where "progamers" sit in cramped apartments and eat ramen and 3 minute instant foods all fucking day.
that's what they want lol, "prize hunters", not "progamers". This is, after all, esporst 2.0.
do you REALLY want a proleague?
actually yes. some of my fav moments watching BW have came from Proleague. in particular - FBH.
hahaha, a not romanic who dont see sarcasm anyway i douubt gom will go so far that proleague will be shut down gom want that their GSL will be broadcasted in the primetime and not pl ...
On September 01 2010 20:43 lololol wrote: Selling intellectual property rights to OGN and MBC, when they do not own and have never owned the rights to Starcraft, and even not aknowledging Blizzard has the rights to Starcraft at all during 3 years of negotiations. They boycotted GOM... yeah, that surely shows they care for e-sports, right? And this is far from a full list of all the shit kespa has done. If anything kespa is a symbol of all that is currently wrong with progaming in Korea.
Blizzard-Activision is the symbol of all that is wrong with profit driven game making in the world.
Which is worse?
Also, there's a difference between supporting and paying for damages because it'll compete with the GSL.
This has nothing to do with Blizzard, they are not negotiating with Blizzard, wtf? In fact, they practically refused to negotiate with Blizzard for 3 whole years and were complaining about impossible to meet demands. How much time it took Blizzard to find a partner that could achieve the impossible? ...but kespa said it was impossible?! The simple truth of the matter is that the demands were very reasonable and that it was all kespa's bullshit. Hell, they weren't even willing to acknowledge that Blizzard holds the intelectual rights to Starcraft, ffs!
If anything it was their own damn fault for being so stupid and stubborn, they could've signed with Blizzard and wouldn't have to pay for damages or anything like that. How are the Blizzard guys even remotely at fault that kespa is controlled by a bunch of morons?
If you don't like capitalsm, then blame capitalism. If you don't like Gretech's policy, you can't blame Blizzard for it and if you don't like kespa's shit, you can only really blame kespa for it.
On September 01 2010 20:43 lololol wrote: Selling intellectual property rights to OGN and MBC, when they do not own and have never owned the rights to Starcraft, and even not aknowledging Blizzard has the rights to Starcraft at all during 3 years of negotiations. They boycotted GOM... yeah, that surely shows they care for e-sports, right? And this is far from a full list of all the shit kespa has done. If anything kespa is a symbol of all that is currently wrong with progaming in Korea.
Blizzard-Activision is the symbol of all that is wrong with profit driven game making in the world.
Which is worse?
Also, there's a difference between supporting and paying for damages because it'll compete with the GSL.
This has nothing to do with Blizzard, they are not negotiating with Blizzard, wtf? In fact, they practically refused to negotiate with Blizzard for 3 whole years and were complaining about impossible to meet demands. How much time it took Blizzard to find a partner that could achieve the impossible? ...but kespa said it was impossible?! The simple truth of the matter is that the demands were very reasonable and that it was all kespa's bullshit. Hell, they weren't even willing to acknowledge that Blizzard holds the intelectual rights to Starcraft, ffs!
If anything it was their own damn fault for being so stupid and stubborn, they could've signed with Blizzard and wouldn't have to pay for damages or anything like that. How are the Blizzard guys even remotely at fault that kespa is controlled by a bunch of morons?
If you don't like capitalsm, then blame capitalism. If you don't like Gretech's policy, you can't blame Blizzard for it and if you don't like kespa's shit, you can only really blame kespa for it.
I'm willing to gamble Gretech's contract with Blizzard-Activision is a HUGE reason why this is happening.
how are u certain that blizzard's demands are reasonable? in fact, kespa challenged blizz/gretech to make their demands public so the community can judge but they have refused and wanted kespa to stick to the non-disclosure agreement.
just look at gretech's demands for GSL, they wanted $30 subscription fee per mth to watch SC2 matches when OSL/MSL matches are free.
On September 01 2010 20:43 lololol wrote: Selling intellectual property rights to OGN and MBC, when they do not own and have never owned the rights to Starcraft, and even not aknowledging Blizzard has the rights to Starcraft at all during 3 years of negotiations. They boycotted GOM... yeah, that surely shows they care for e-sports, right? And this is far from a full list of all the shit kespa has done. If anything kespa is a symbol of all that is currently wrong with progaming in Korea.
Blizzard-Activision is the symbol of all that is wrong with profit driven game making in the world.
Which is worse?
Also, there's a difference between supporting and paying for damages because it'll compete with the GSL.
This has nothing to do with Blizzard, they are not negotiating with Blizzard, wtf? In fact, they practically refused to negotiate with Blizzard for 3 whole years and were complaining about impossible to meet demands. How much time it took Blizzard to find a partner that could achieve the impossible? ...but kespa said it was impossible?! The simple truth of the matter is that the demands were very reasonable and that it was all kespa's bullshit. Hell, they weren't even willing to acknowledge that Blizzard holds the intelectual rights to Starcraft, ffs!
If anything it was their own damn fault for being so stupid and stubborn, they could've signed with Blizzard and wouldn't have to pay for damages or anything like that. How are the Blizzard guys even remotely at fault that kespa is controlled by a bunch of morons?
If you don't like capitalsm, then blame capitalism. If you don't like Gretech's policy, you can't blame Blizzard for it and if you don't like kespa's shit, you can only really blame kespa for it.
I'm willing to gamble Gretech's contract with Blizzard-Activision is a HUGE reason why this is happening.
If there's no solid info on this, we can only guess. I'm certainly willing to give Blizzard the benefit of the doubt much more than kespa, considering their history. Just as they are complaining about the pay for damages, they may very well be doing things to fuck with Gretech. For example: they could be simply refusing to make it so there are no conflicting schedules and purposedly breaking the NDA, so the fans would have no info from Gretech and only what kespa released. Or the Gretech guys are just pissed off about the boycott and want revenge of some sort.
if ur talking about history, then kespa definitely did more to promote e-sport than blizz. kespa ran 3 leagues 52 weeks a year. blizzard runs what... Blizzcon Invitational.
blizz is a for-profit company. they are not promoting SC/SC2 out of goodness of their heart. they do it for money. kespa on the other hand is a non-profit org established by the Ministry of Culture. they also promote 22 other titles and arrange televised matches for the other games too.
if anything, the benefit of the doubt should go to kespa and the Ministry of Culture.
On September 02 2010 04:36 Pedo.Bear wrote: I blame the French. Activision is French. Everything was so much nicer before the French decided to come in and fuck everything up.
haha that makes me remember... Wasn't the company that created fallout die out because of some french businessman?
On September 02 2010 04:36 Pedo.Bear wrote: I blame the French. Activision is French. Everything was so much nicer before the French decided to come in and fuck everything up.
I hope you're joking. Blizzard was owned by Vivendi (those are the French you're talking about, not Activision) waaaaaaaaay before that. Activision fucked everything up I agree, but Vivendi didn't do much...
Anyway, the ones who made the decisions are Americans.
if ur talking about history, then kespa definitely did more to promote e-sport than blizz. kespa ran 3 leagues 52 weeks a year. blizzard runs what... Blizzcon Invitational.
blizz is a for-profit company. they are not promoting SC/SC2 out of goodness of their heart. they do it for money. kespa on the other hand is a non-profit org established by the Ministry of Culture. they also promote 22 other titles and arrange televised matches for the other games too.
if anything, the benefit of the doubt should go to kespa and the Ministry of Culture.
.... They were approved by the Ministry of Culture not established by them.
Look this is black and white. Blizzard apparently has visions of how e-sports should be and they want to guide e-sport to that. To do that they need control and moderation of people promoting e-sport which is Kespa. Kespa likes their monopoly on Korean e-sport and doesn't like to be controlled or competed against, so they play their power and influence card. Blizzard goes to their competitor GOMTV who is willing to be moderated by blizzard. I mean who wouldn't? You control the Starcraft franchise, you basically control pro-gaming industry in Korea.
On September 01 2010 20:43 lololol wrote: Selling intellectual property rights to OGN and MBC, when they do not own and have never owned the rights to Starcraft, and even not aknowledging Blizzard has the rights to Starcraft at all during 3 years of negotiations. They boycotted GOM... yeah, that surely shows they care for e-sports, right? And this is far from a full list of all the shit kespa has done. If anything kespa is a symbol of all that is currently wrong with progaming in Korea.
Blizzard-Activision is the symbol of all that is wrong with profit driven game making in the world.
Which is worse?
Also, there's a difference between supporting and paying for damages because it'll compete with the GSL.
This has nothing to do with Blizzard, they are not negotiating with Blizzard, wtf? In fact, they practically refused to negotiate with Blizzard for 3 whole years and were complaining about impossible to meet demands. How much time it took Blizzard to find a partner that could achieve the impossible? ...but kespa said it was impossible?! The simple truth of the matter is that the demands were very reasonable and that it was all kespa's bullshit. Hell, they weren't even willing to acknowledge that Blizzard holds the intelectual rights to Starcraft, ffs!
If anything it was their own damn fault for being so stupid and stubborn, they could've signed with Blizzard and wouldn't have to pay for damages or anything like that. How are the Blizzard guys even remotely at fault that kespa is controlled by a bunch of morons?
If you don't like capitalsm, then blame capitalism. If you don't like Gretech's policy, you can't blame Blizzard for it and if you don't like kespa's shit, you can only really blame kespa for it.
I'm willing to gamble Gretech's contract with Blizzard-Activision is a HUGE reason why this is happening.
If there's no solid info on this, we can only guess. I'm certainly willing to give Blizzard the benefit of the doubt much more than kespa, considering their history. Just as they are complaining about the pay for damages, they may very well be doing things to fuck with Gretech. For example: they could be simply refusing to make it so there are no conflicting schedules and purposedly breaking the NDA, so the fans would have no info from Gretech and only what kespa released. Or the Gretech guys are just pissed off about the boycott and want revenge of some sort.
The simple truth of the matter is that the demands were very reasonable and that it was all kespa's bullshit. Hell, they weren't even willing to acknowledge that Blizzard holds the intelectual rights to Starcraft, ffs!
On September 02 2010 04:46 FishForThought wrote: Look this is black and white. Blizzard apparently has visions of how e-sports should be and they want to guide e-sport to that. To do that they need control and moderation of people promoting e-sport which is Kespa. Kespa likes their monopoly on Korean e-sport and doesn't like to be controlled or competed against, so they play their power and influence card. Blizzard goes to their competitor GOMTV who is willing to be moderated by blizzard. I mean who wouldn't? You control the Starcraft franchise, you basically control pro-gaming industry in Korea.
i disagree.
blizz made SC2, that is a fact. but blizz is not owner of e-sport, not even owner of pro-SC2 gaming. blizz wants to monopolize how their game can or can not be played. such actions has been struck down in the US court.
kespa on the other hand, truly promotes e-sport. not just SC:BW. they promote the entire e-sport industry. kespa at least cared enuf to have the players paid. blizz doesnt.
On September 01 2010 20:43 lololol wrote: Selling intellectual property rights to OGN and MBC, when they do not own and have never owned the rights to Starcraft, and even not aknowledging Blizzard has the rights to Starcraft at all during 3 years of negotiations. They boycotted GOM... yeah, that surely shows they care for e-sports, right? And this is far from a full list of all the shit kespa has done. If anything kespa is a symbol of all that is currently wrong with progaming in Korea.
Blizzard-Activision is the symbol of all that is wrong with profit driven game making in the world.
Which is worse?
Also, there's a difference between supporting and paying for damages because it'll compete with the GSL.
This has nothing to do with Blizzard, they are not negotiating with Blizzard, wtf? In fact, they practically refused to negotiate with Blizzard for 3 whole years and were complaining about impossible to meet demands. How much time it took Blizzard to find a partner that could achieve the impossible? ...but kespa said it was impossible?! The simple truth of the matter is that the demands were very reasonable and that it was all kespa's bullshit. Hell, they weren't even willing to acknowledge that Blizzard holds the intelectual rights to Starcraft, ffs!
If anything it was their own damn fault for being so stupid and stubborn, they could've signed with Blizzard and wouldn't have to pay for damages or anything like that. How are the Blizzard guys even remotely at fault that kespa is controlled by a bunch of morons?
If you don't like capitalsm, then blame capitalism. If you don't like Gretech's policy, you can't blame Blizzard for it and if you don't like kespa's shit, you can only really blame kespa for it.
I'm willing to gamble Gretech's contract with Blizzard-Activision is a HUGE reason why this is happening.
If there's no solid info on this, we can only guess. I'm certainly willing to give Blizzard the benefit of the doubt much more than kespa, considering their history. Just as they are complaining about the pay for damages, they may very well be doing things to fuck with Gretech. For example: they could be simply refusing to make it so there are no conflicting schedules and purposedly breaking the NDA, so the fans would have no info from Gretech and only what kespa released. Or the Gretech guys are just pissed off about the boycott and want revenge of some sort.
The simple truth of the matter is that the demands were very reasonable and that it was all kespa's bullshit. Hell, they weren't even willing to acknowledge that Blizzard holds the intelectual rights to Starcraft, ffs!
Both Blizzard and kespa officialy released that kespa does not recognize the rights. Kespa's stand was Blizzard had no grounds to ask for anything, since according to them the game itself is not esports and esports is a communal property. This is exactly solid info on that matter.
Decrying them as impossible to meet is plain bullshit. Gretech negotiated a deal in... less than month? Impossible, my ass, kespa just wanted to keep their monopoly and not have to pay anything and that came back to bite them in the ass.
if ur talking about history, then kespa definitely did more to promote e-sport than blizz. kespa ran 3 leagues 52 weeks a year. blizzard runs what... Blizzcon Invitational.
blizz is a for-profit company. they are not promoting SC/SC2 out of goodness of their heart. they do it for money. kespa on the other hand is a non-profit org established by the Ministry of Culture. they also promote 22 other titles and arrange televised matches for the other games too.
if anything, the benefit of the doubt should go to kespa and the Ministry of Culture.
.... They were approved by the Ministry of Culture not established by them.
Look this is black and white. Blizzard apparently has visions of how e-sports should be and they want to guide e-sport to that. To do that they need control and moderation of people promoting e-sport which is Kespa. Kespa likes their monopoly on Korean e-sport and doesn't like to be controlled or competed against, so they play their power and influence card. Blizzard goes to their competitor GOMTV who is willing to be moderated by blizzard. I mean who wouldn't? You control the Starcraft franchise, you basically control pro-gaming industry in Korea.
So care to explain me their "vision". From the tidbits we are getting I can see that if they have indeed a "vision" that "vision" sucks... Big time. Just look at the way they made Battle.Net, how they claim to have right on everything etc. Did they even tried to establish pro-team? Pay players regular salary so they can devote their life to play their beloved games..
Even worse, that we can watch BW for free, they want to charge fans for watching vods and streams. All I can see is a greedy company which tries to milk fans as much as possible. They are on the way to ruin SC:BW but they don't understand that actually if they do that they will shoot themselves in a foot in the long run.
The truth is just simple. BW grew into e-sport unexpectedly and it was fans who loved the game that made it possible. How I see the situation right now is the following: A few greedy assholes trying to maximize their short-run profits by shoving their new shiny game into my throat. At the same time they don't care about the long-term future of the game. All they want is to ride the fact that the game is new and make more money. They realize that it is possible to get some extra money not only from selling copies of their game but also from "e-sports" and they are trying to do that without having a clue what it takes to establish a proper professional scene.
My feelings on the case. Blizzard definitely is losing its image quickly in my eyes.
kespa actually has a very valid point regarding blizz's ip claims - they can not enforce it. and the "communal property" is in fact something in the proposed legislation in Korea. and if the court found SC to be "communal property", which it very much likely is, then blizz's is totally screwed. btw, "communal property" does not mean the work has no copyright. it only means playing/broacasting the game will not violate copyright of the content creator.
GOM meeting demands of blizz is different than kespa meeting blizz. GOM is acting as a reseller, a middle man, who will negotiate on behalf of blizz. GOM does not help players get paid contracts like kespa did.
By nature of "public announcements" etc. the last party to speak tends to look better because they'll always frame things in a manner that's sympathetic to their side, and when the sides detest each other often while painting the other side as evil. People jumping on either camel's back are probably going in arms over a supremely biased PR move :/
On September 02 2010 04:46 FishForThought wrote: Look this is black and white. Blizzard apparently has visions of how e-sports should be and they want to guide e-sport to that. To do that they need control and moderation of people promoting e-sport which is Kespa. Kespa likes their monopoly on Korean e-sport and doesn't like to be controlled or competed against, so they play their power and influence card. Blizzard goes to their competitor GOMTV who is willing to be moderated by blizzard. I mean who wouldn't? You control the Starcraft franchise, you basically control pro-gaming industry in Korea.
i disagree.
blizz made SC2, that is a fact. but blizz is not owner of e-sport, not even owner of pro-SC2 gaming. blizz wants to monopolize how their game can or can not be played. such actions has been struck down in the US court.
kespa on the other hand, truly promotes e-sport. not just SC:BW. they promote the entire e-sport industry. kespa at least cared enuf to have the players paid. blizz doesnt.
Kespa doesn't really promote e-sport.. if they did, they wouldn't have banned their players from playing GOMTV Classic. Pro-gaming and e-sport is two entirely different thing. Promoting e-sport is to promote people to come out and play at all sorts of events. Its like telling people to join chess clubs or a local badminton team. Promoting pro-gaming is showing how professional plays.
Kespa promotes pro-gaming but discourages e-sport.
On September 02 2010 04:46 FishForThought wrote: Look this is black and white. Blizzard apparently has visions of how e-sports should be and they want to guide e-sport to that. To do that they need control and moderation of people promoting e-sport which is Kespa. Kespa likes their monopoly on Korean e-sport and doesn't like to be controlled or competed against, so they play their power and influence card. Blizzard goes to their competitor GOMTV who is willing to be moderated by blizzard. I mean who wouldn't? You control the Starcraft franchise, you basically control pro-gaming industry in Korea.
i disagree.
blizz made SC2, that is a fact. but blizz is not owner of e-sport, not even owner of pro-SC2 gaming. blizz wants to monopolize how their game can or can not be played. such actions has been struck down in the US court.
kespa on the other hand, truly promotes e-sport. not just SC:BW. they promote the entire e-sport industry. kespa at least cared enuf to have the players paid. blizz doesnt.
Kespa doesn't really promote e-sport.. if they did, they wouldn't have banned their players from playing GOMTV Classic. Pro-gaming and e-sport is two entirely different thing. Promoting e-sport is to promote people to come out and play at all sorts of events. Its like telling people to join chess clubs or a local badminton team. Promoting pro-gaming is showing how professional plays.
Kespa promotes pro-gaming but discourages e-sport.
You have no clue what you're talking about. E-sport is pro-gaming. It is like saying FIFA is only promoting professional football teams and its hurt amatuer players... People pick up a game when they see how their idols do "crazy" things in game. Like Ronaldo, Messi etc in football or Flash, Jaedong in SC:BW. If I want to watch e-sport I want to watch it at the highest possible level.
Just watch a game of Flash or Jaedong and then go watch a vod of o top foreigner in SC:BW. The difference is sooo huge it sometimes just hurts watching it...
On September 01 2010 20:43 lololol wrote: Selling intellectual property rights to OGN and MBC, when they do not own and have never owned the rights to Starcraft, and even not aknowledging Blizzard has the rights to Starcraft at all during 3 years of negotiations. They boycotted GOM... yeah, that surely shows they care for e-sports, right? And this is far from a full list of all the shit kespa has done. If anything kespa is a symbol of all that is currently wrong with progaming in Korea.
Blizzard-Activision is the symbol of all that is wrong with profit driven game making in the world.
Which is worse?
Also, there's a difference between supporting and paying for damages because it'll compete with the GSL.
This has nothing to do with Blizzard, they are not negotiating with Blizzard, wtf? In fact, they practically refused to negotiate with Blizzard for 3 whole years and were complaining about impossible to meet demands. How much time it took Blizzard to find a partner that could achieve the impossible? ...but kespa said it was impossible?! The simple truth of the matter is that the demands were very reasonable and that it was all kespa's bullshit. Hell, they weren't even willing to acknowledge that Blizzard holds the intelectual rights to Starcraft, ffs!
If anything it was their own damn fault for being so stupid and stubborn, they could've signed with Blizzard and wouldn't have to pay for damages or anything like that. How are the Blizzard guys even remotely at fault that kespa is controlled by a bunch of morons?
If you don't like capitalsm, then blame capitalism. If you don't like Gretech's policy, you can't blame Blizzard for it and if you don't like kespa's shit, you can only really blame kespa for it.
I'm willing to gamble Gretech's contract with Blizzard-Activision is a HUGE reason why this is happening.
If there's no solid info on this, we can only guess. I'm certainly willing to give Blizzard the benefit of the doubt much more than kespa, considering their history. Just as they are complaining about the pay for damages, they may very well be doing things to fuck with Gretech. For example: they could be simply refusing to make it so there are no conflicting schedules and purposedly breaking the NDA, so the fans would have no info from Gretech and only what kespa released. Or the Gretech guys are just pissed off about the boycott and want revenge of some sort.
The simple truth of the matter is that the demands were very reasonable and that it was all kespa's bullshit. Hell, they weren't even willing to acknowledge that Blizzard holds the intelectual rights to Starcraft, ffs!
Both Blizzard and kespa officialy released that kespa does not recognize the rights. Kespa's stand was Blizzard had no grounds to ask for anything, since according to them the game itself is not esports and esports is a communal property. This is exactly solid info on that matter.
Decrying them as impossible to meet is plain bullshit. Gretech negotiated a deal in... less than month? Impossible, my ass, kespa just wanted to keep their monopoly and not have to pay anything and that came back to bite them in the ass.
On September 02 2010 05:11 dybydx wrote: @lololol,
kespa actually has a very valid point regarding blizz's ip claims - they can not enforce it. and the "communal property" is in fact something in the proposed legislation in Korea. and if the court found SC to be "communal property", which it very much likely is, then blizz's is totally screwed. btw, "communal property" does not mean the work has no copyright. it only means playing/broacasting the game will not violate copyright of the content creator.
GOM meeting demands of blizz is different than kespa meeting blizz. GOM is acting as a reseller, a middle man, who will negotiate on behalf of blizz. GOM does not help players get paid contracts like kespa did.
If kespa's genuine purpose was supporting the growth of esports they wouldn't have done any of the shit they've done(no need to repeat examples). Their history certainly doesn't provoke sympathy. The whole matter was that Blizzard stance is that it does violate their intellectual property rights and they are not recognizing that, since they want to avoid paying any fees. Gretech did and so they signed with them with ease. Gretech are running their own tourneys, so they aren't only a middle man. If kespa signed they could also resell the rights to broadcast SC and SC2. The paid player contracts are to advertise the company/team that signs the players, as in other sports, they are not about broadcasting rights. People are also quick to blame Blizzard for the prices of GSL.
On September 02 2010 04:46 FishForThought wrote: Look this is black and white. Blizzard apparently has visions of how e-sports should be and they want to guide e-sport to that. To do that they need control and moderation of people promoting e-sport which is Kespa. Kespa likes their monopoly on Korean e-sport and doesn't like to be controlled or competed against, so they play their power and influence card. Blizzard goes to their competitor GOMTV who is willing to be moderated by blizzard. I mean who wouldn't? You control the Starcraft franchise, you basically control pro-gaming industry in Korea.
i disagree.
blizz made SC2, that is a fact. but blizz is not owner of e-sport, not even owner of pro-SC2 gaming. blizz wants to monopolize how their game can or can not be played. such actions has been struck down in the US court.
kespa on the other hand, truly promotes e-sport. not just SC:BW. they promote the entire e-sport industry. kespa at least cared enuf to have the players paid. blizz doesnt.
Kespa doesn't really promote e-sport.. if they did, they wouldn't have banned their players from playing GOMTV Classic. Pro-gaming and e-sport is two entirely different thing. Promoting e-sport is to promote people to come out and play at all sorts of events. Its like telling people to join chess clubs or a local badminton team. Promoting pro-gaming is showing how professional plays.
Kespa promotes pro-gaming but discourages e-sport.
Get your facts straight, Kespa didn't ban players from GOM Classic, in fact it actually got Kespa's seal of approval.. instead, various proteams banned their players from playing in the tournament because they wanted to lessen the workload of their top-players. GOM was always the last thing all progamers practiced for anyways, with its lack of prestige, shitty production values and honestly, a boring tournament format.
On September 02 2010 04:46 FishForThought wrote: Look this is black and white. Blizzard apparently has visions of how e-sports should be and they want to guide e-sport to that. To do that they need control and moderation of people promoting e-sport which is Kespa. Kespa likes their monopoly on Korean e-sport and doesn't like to be controlled or competed against, so they play their power and influence card. Blizzard goes to their competitor GOMTV who is willing to be moderated by blizzard. I mean who wouldn't? You control the Starcraft franchise, you basically control pro-gaming industry in Korea.
i disagree.
blizz made SC2, that is a fact. but blizz is not owner of e-sport, not even owner of pro-SC2 gaming. blizz wants to monopolize how their game can or can not be played. such actions has been struck down in the US court.
kespa on the other hand, truly promotes e-sport. not just SC:BW. they promote the entire e-sport industry. kespa at least cared enuf to have the players paid. blizz doesnt.
Kespa doesn't really promote e-sport.. if they did, they wouldn't have banned their players from playing GOMTV Classic. Pro-gaming and e-sport is two entirely different thing. Promoting e-sport is to promote people to come out and play at all sorts of events. Its like telling people to join chess clubs or a local badminton team. Promoting pro-gaming is showing how professional plays.
Kespa promotes pro-gaming but discourages e-sport.
Get your facts straight, Kespa didn't ban players from GOM Classic, in fact it actually got Kespa's seal of approval.. instead, various proteams banned their players from playing in the tournament because they wanted to lessen the workload of their top-players. GOM was always the last thing all progamers practiced for anyways, with its lack of prestige, shitty production values and honestly, a boring tournament format.
Exactly and this is what Gretech wants everyone to switch over to? LOL fuck GSL. I love the amazing products Blizzard creates and I personally enjoy playing SC2 but if they geniunely care about esports they should allow BW to go on instead of shoving SC2 down everyone's throat. Koreans would rather watch a balanced esport game at its pinnacle rather than a new game with shiny graphics.
On September 02 2010 04:46 FishForThought wrote: Look this is black and white. Blizzard apparently has visions of how e-sports should be and they want to guide e-sport to that. To do that they need control and moderation of people promoting e-sport which is Kespa. Kespa likes their monopoly on Korean e-sport and doesn't like to be controlled or competed against, so they play their power and influence card. Blizzard goes to their competitor GOMTV who is willing to be moderated by blizzard. I mean who wouldn't? You control the Starcraft franchise, you basically control pro-gaming industry in Korea.
i disagree.
blizz made SC2, that is a fact. but blizz is not owner of e-sport, not even owner of pro-SC2 gaming. blizz wants to monopolize how their game can or can not be played. such actions has been struck down in the US court.
kespa on the other hand, truly promotes e-sport. not just SC:BW. they promote the entire e-sport industry. kespa at least cared enuf to have the players paid. blizz doesnt.
Kespa doesn't really promote e-sport.. if they did, they wouldn't have banned their players from playing GOMTV Classic. Pro-gaming and e-sport is two entirely different thing. Promoting e-sport is to promote people to come out and play at all sorts of events. Its like telling people to join chess clubs or a local badminton team. Promoting pro-gaming is showing how professional plays.
Kespa promotes pro-gaming but discourages e-sport.
Get your facts straight, Kespa didn't ban players from GOM Classic, in fact it actually got Kespa's seal of approval.. instead, various proteams banned their players from playing in the tournament because they wanted to lessen the workload of their top-players. GOM was always the last thing all progamers practiced for anyways, with its lack of prestige, shitty production values and honestly, a boring tournament format.
Exactly and this is what Gretech wants everyone to switch over to? LOL fuck GSL. I love the amazing products Blizzard creates and I personally enjoy playing SC2 but if they geniunely care about esports they should allow BW to go on instead of shoving SC2 down everyone's throat. Koreans would rather watch a balanced esport game at its pinnacle rather than a new game with shiny graphics.
Not just Koreans my friend. I can't think of anyone that would rather watch SC2 instead of BW.
On September 01 2010 20:43 lololol wrote: Selling intellectual property rights to OGN and MBC, when they do not own and have never owned the rights to Starcraft, and even not aknowledging Blizzard has the rights to Starcraft at all during 3 years of negotiations. They boycotted GOM... yeah, that surely shows they care for e-sports, right? And this is far from a full list of all the shit kespa has done. If anything kespa is a symbol of all that is currently wrong with progaming in Korea.
Blizzard-Activision is the symbol of all that is wrong with profit driven game making in the world.
Which is worse?
Also, there's a difference between supporting and paying for damages because it'll compete with the GSL.
This has nothing to do with Blizzard, they are not negotiating with Blizzard, wtf? In fact, they practically refused to negotiate with Blizzard for 3 whole years and were complaining about impossible to meet demands. How much time it took Blizzard to find a partner that could achieve the impossible? ...but kespa said it was impossible?! The simple truth of the matter is that the demands were very reasonable and that it was all kespa's bullshit. Hell, they weren't even willing to acknowledge that Blizzard holds the intelectual rights to Starcraft, ffs!
If anything it was their own damn fault for being so stupid and stubborn, they could've signed with Blizzard and wouldn't have to pay for damages or anything like that. How are the Blizzard guys even remotely at fault that kespa is controlled by a bunch of morons?
If you don't like capitalsm, then blame capitalism. If you don't like Gretech's policy, you can't blame Blizzard for it and if you don't like kespa's shit, you can only really blame kespa for it.
I'm willing to gamble Gretech's contract with Blizzard-Activision is a HUGE reason why this is happening.
If there's no solid info on this, we can only guess. I'm certainly willing to give Blizzard the benefit of the doubt much more than kespa, considering their history. Just as they are complaining about the pay for damages, they may very well be doing things to fuck with Gretech. For example: they could be simply refusing to make it so there are no conflicting schedules and purposedly breaking the NDA, so the fans would have no info from Gretech and only what kespa released. Or the Gretech guys are just pissed off about the boycott and want revenge of some sort.
The simple truth of the matter is that the demands were very reasonable and that it was all kespa's bullshit. Hell, they weren't even willing to acknowledge that Blizzard holds the intelectual rights to Starcraft, ffs!
Both Blizzard and kespa officialy released that kespa does not recognize the rights. Kespa's stand was Blizzard had no grounds to ask for anything, since according to them the game itself is not esports and esports is a communal property. This is exactly solid info on that matter.
Decrying them as impossible to meet is plain bullshit. Gretech negotiated a deal in... less than month? Impossible, my ass, kespa just wanted to keep their monopoly and not have to pay anything and that came back to bite them in the ass.
Maybe you should look more into them matter here
If kespa was sure they are legally right, then they wouldn't have stopped the TLO vs Nada showmatch, for example. This shows they aren't so sure in their own stance. It's also likely a legal precedent. Computer games cost tens of millions of dollars to create, while in comparison basketball did not cost anything to create(you need a basketball field to play, but you also need a computer to play SC2, and that computer is not part of the cost to create SC2). Most likely kespa are also trying to pull some strings to push legislation, which will make Blizzard's EULAs illegal, but they do abide by them for the time being, so the released info about the matter is a solid as it gets and it matches what I already posted.
So much ignorance here. It makes me so fucking sad that the BW leagues chances of survival are slowly unraveling, while kids on TL bicker like idiots over things that do not matter.
I really don't care what side you choose to support, since in the end your support means nothing to them, unless you do something about it. Instead of throwing words at each other uselessly let's take action before its too late. Kespa might be acting stupid in your opinion but they are our only hope in this war to continue to enjoy the BW proleagues.
Blizzard wants everything, and everything their way. If they had brought these issues up eight years ago then I would have had to support them. But now they are only bringing it up because of SC2. Well, SC2 is fucking boring. I and many others have no interest in watching SC2. Absolutely none. Speaking for myself now; I think that E-Sports is great. Playing video games for a living is cool. But if BW must be sacrificed in order to have that... then fuck Blizzard and fuck GOM.
I will not sit by and let these corporate assholes destroy something that I love this much. Even if you support Blizzard then you must realize that if GOM has their way we will be left with no more Proleagues. Has that sunk in yet? No more Jaedong, no more Flash, no more anything. This will hurt E-Sports more than help it. Once the hype is gone will SC2 survive as a 'spectator sport'? I don't know, probably not in my opinion. But BW has already been through the fire, it's already found a place in many people's hearts and managed to stay their for a decade.
To be a professional BW player is a long, hard road. In the end, unless you are Nada or Savior, you will not make much money. You will not be very famous outside of Korea, or inside for that matter if you never do well. Your skill set is limited to... playing Starcraft. Your hopes of finding a decent job outside of anything Starcraft related is ludicrously bad. So then why do it? Simple, the love of the game and the fans. In almost every interview I've read with progamers; they always thank the fans. Well I think its high time we started giving back.
SC2's success is all about money. I get the feeling more people are playing it because of the prize pools more than anything. It is being forced down our throats by Blizzard, and I don't like the taste. If you want to make a game and then whore it out as an 'e-sport' then be my guest Blizz, but don't touch BW. Watching and playing this game give me more joy than I can put into words. I love it, and I will fight to keep it alive.
So their are two ways this can end well. We can hope for a miracle or Kespa gives in to GOM's demands, which isn't going to happen for two reasons: Kespa has way too much pride, and Kespa simply doesn't have the money! GOM is incessantly telling them about all these fees they have to pay and how Kespa screwed GOM in the past and all this political bullshit. Well there is almost no money in the proleagues and GOM fucking knows it. It sounds to me like GOM wants revenge or something, and that means wiping Kespa out. Which in turn means the death of BW...
Let's band together for once, I'm begging you TL. Don't let them take our game away. We should be pooling our collective resources (which are great and many) trying to stop this instead of useless discussion over trivial matters. Blizzard created Starcraft, but they did not create the proleagues. If Van Gogh had kept all his paintings in his house and charged people to see them, do you think he would be respected and admired as he is today? Of course not. He may have created the paintings, but he certainly did not create and foster other people's love for them. He simply did something that he loved and was good at, and it resonated with people.
Well that is what Starcraft has done for me. Blizzard created a game, put some love and time into it and it resonated with me. Now they want to destroy a community that supports that? For what? The GSL?! FUCK THAT. FUCK YOUR POLITICS. I JUST WANT TO WATCH JAEDONG BEAT FLASH. I just want to watch BW at its pinnacle and listen to overly excited Koreans. I just want to trash talk Bisu fanboys. I just want everything to be as it was. These negotiations have already damaged the proleagues image enough that if they do survive somehow, they will have more trouble than ever finding sponsors. Let's show the corporations that it isn't just about money. It's about us: the fans. Without us none of this would exist.
Well I'm going to start exercising the tiny bit of power I have. Alone I am weak but together we can have a say in how this will end.
On September 02 2010 06:20 GunSlinger wrote: So much ignorance here. It makes me so fucking sad that the BW leagues chances of survival are slowly unraveling, while kids on TL bicker like idiots over things that do not matter.
I really don't care what side you choose to support, since in the end your support means nothing to them, unless you do something about it. Instead of throwing words at each other uselessly let's take action before its too late. Kespa might be acting stupid in your opinion but they are our only hope in this war to continue to enjoy the BW proleagues.
Blizzard wants everything, and everything their way. If they had brought these issues up eight years ago then I would have had to support them. But now they are only bringing it up because of SC2. Well, SC2 is fucking boring. I and many others have no interest in watching SC2. Absolutely none. Speaking for myself now; I think that E-Sports is great. Playing video games for a living is cool. But if BW must be sacrificed in order to have that... then fuck Blizzard and fuck GOM.
I will not sit by and let these corporate assholes destroy something that I love this much. Even if you support Blizzard then you must realize that if GOM has their way we will be left with no more Proleagues. Has that sunk in yet? No more Jaedong, no more Flash, no more anything. This will hurt E-Sports more than help it. Once the hype is gone will SC2 survive as a 'spectator sport'? I don't know, probably not in my opinion. But BW has already been through the fire, it's already found a place in many people's hearts and managed to stay their for a decade.
To be a professional BW player is a long, hard road. In the end, unless you are Nada or Savior, you will not make much money. You will not be very famous outside of Korea, or inside for that matter if you never do well. Your skill set is limited to... playing Starcraft. Your hopes of finding a decent job outside of anything Starcraft related is ludicrously bad. So then why do it? Simple, the love of the game and the fans. In almost every interview I've read with progamers; they always thank the fans. Well I think its high time we started giving back.
SC2's success is all about money. I get the feeling more people are playing it because of the prize pools more than anything. It is being forced down our throats by Blizzard, and I don't like the taste. If you want to make a game and then whore it out as an 'e-sport' then be my guest Blizz, but don't touch BW. Watching and playing this game give me more joy than I can put into words. I love it, and I will fight to keep it alive.
So their are two ways this can end well. We can hope for a miracle or Kespa gives in to GOM's demands, which isn't going to happen for two reasons: Kespa has way too much pride, and Kespa simply doesn't have the money! GOM is incessantly telling them about all these fees they have to pay and how Kespa screwed GOM in the past and all this political bullshit. Well there is almost no money in the proleagues and GOM fucking knows it. It sounds to me like GOM wants revenge or something, and that means wiping Kespa out. Which in turn means the death of BW...
Let's band together for once, I'm begging you TL. Don't let them take our game away. We should be pooling our collective resources (which are great and many) trying to stop this instead of useless discussion over trivial matters. Blizzard created Starcraft, but they did not create the proleagues. If Van Gogh had kept all his paintings in his house and charged people to see them, do you think he would be respected and admired as he is today? Of course not. He may have created the paintings, but he certainly did not create and foster other people's love for them. He simply did something that he loved and was good at, and it resonated with people.
Well that is what Starcraft has done for me. Blizzard created a game, put some love and time into it and it resonated with me. Now they want to destroy a community that supports that? For what? The GSL?! FUCK THAT. FUCK YOUR POLITICS. I JUST WANT TO WATCH JAEDONG BEAT FLASH. I just want to watch BW at its pinnacle and listen to overly excited Koreans. I just want to trash talk Bisu fanboys. I just want everything to be as it was. These negotiations have already damaged the proleagues image enough that if they do survive somehow, they will have more trouble than ever finding sponsors. Let's show the corporations that it isn't just about money. It's about us: the fans. Without us none of this would exist.
Well I'm going to start exercising the tiny bit of power I have. Alone I am weak but together we can have a say in how this will end.
Well said! Kespa = PL Gretech = no PL Fuck you Blizzard/Gretech/SC2/GSL.
GunSlinger very well written! totally agree. hate this bullshit that is going on it makes me so unbeliveble sad I have no words. my dream have been for many many years now to go to korea and watch some live BW, cant belive Blizzard/Gretech just fucks us in the ass like that
Okay. In germany you cant patent computer software. Let them host MSL / OSL in germany!
edit: and if the law is the same in korea, then what is the problem? fuck the gretech/blizzard-shit and see what they can do by korean law if the just dont stop hosting and televising tournaments. i bet they can do nothing.
ps: is it now generally forbidden to host tournaments and broadcast the games? for everybody? are lan events forbidden? broadcasted lan events? is this a popularity thing? or is it only forbidden in korea? and does wcg have to pay to gretech/blizzard?
pps: it really does hurt that kespa gets so much hate. there are 2 aspects of kespa. they one were its keeping korean esports together and being their labor union, and the other, were they decide on things during games with their kespa referees. and if you hate kespa referees you dont have to hate kespa! ( its like hating fifa referees and hating fifa...)
I used to care about this. But now I have SC2, so I'm just watching this train-wreck in slow motion with mild amusement. People can say Blizzard/KeSPA/both are evil however much they want... me? I just think KeSPA's governing body is stupid. From a negotiations standpoint, they're behaving like complete morons in disbelief, hoping their troubles will go away if they just wish hard enough.
KeSPA would quite clearly prefer self-destruction over having to give in and admit defeat. The moral of the story? Be careful what you wish for.
On September 02 2010 04:46 FishForThought wrote: Look this is black and white. Blizzard apparently has visions of how e-sports should be and they want to guide e-sport to that. To do that they need control and moderation of people promoting e-sport which is Kespa. Kespa likes their monopoly on Korean e-sport and doesn't like to be controlled or competed against, so they play their power and influence card. Blizzard goes to their competitor GOMTV who is willing to be moderated by blizzard. I mean who wouldn't? You control the Starcraft franchise, you basically control pro-gaming industry in Korea.
i disagree.
blizz made SC2, that is a fact. but blizz is not owner of e-sport, not even owner of pro-SC2 gaming. blizz wants to monopolize how their game can or can not be played. such actions has been struck down in the US court.
kespa on the other hand, truly promotes e-sport. not just SC:BW. they promote the entire e-sport industry. kespa at least cared enuf to have the players paid. blizz doesnt.
Kespa doesn't really promote e-sport.. if they did, they wouldn't have banned their players from playing GOMTV Classic. Pro-gaming and e-sport is two entirely different thing. Promoting e-sport is to promote people to come out and play at all sorts of events. Its like telling people to join chess clubs or a local badminton team. Promoting pro-gaming is showing how professional plays.
Kespa promotes pro-gaming but discourages e-sport.
You have no clue what you're talking about. E-sport is pro-gaming. It is like saying FIFA is only promoting professional football teams and its hurt amatuer players... People pick up a game when they see how their idols do "crazy" things in game. Like Ronaldo, Messi etc in football or Flash, Jaedong in SC:BW. If I want to watch e-sport I want to watch it at the highest possible level.
Just watch a game of Flash or Jaedong and then go watch a vod of o top foreigner in SC:BW. The difference is sooo huge it sometimes just hurts watching it...
It is like what if the NHL won't let players go off and play in the Olympics?
Only a small percentage of the people will pick up the game or play the game after watching the pros. How many percent of bisu's fan girls actually go home and start playing BW ICCup after watching Bisu play? How many people would start racing after watching F1? The answer is near zero to none. Most people watch for the enjoyment of watching. By solely promoting F1, you are just promoting the racers and the cars, you are not promoting people to go out and street race with family van.
Get your facts straight, Kespa didn't ban players from GOM Classic, in fact it actually got Kespa's seal of approval.. instead, various proteams banned their players from playing in the tournament because they wanted to lessen the workload of their top-players. GOM was always the last thing all progamers practiced for anyways, with its lack of prestige, shitty production values and honestly, a boring tournament format.
Well http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/GOM_Classic suggests that kespa has something to do with it and it is hard to imagine teams won't allow their B-team players a chance to play in televised matches. Players like Boxer, Nada, Tossgirl, Baby.. would love to practice and compete when given the chance.
Wait for what? The entire scene to be go backwards in time and maybe even fizzle out as if the phenemonen never existed?
Whatever bullshit Blizzard/Gretech is pulling for whatever reasons, is making the entire scene unstable. It won't be easy to persuade sponors to keep investing in the scene that is plagued with uncertainty, legal troubles and bad publicity overall. Not to mention the players themselves won't be able to showcast all their skills now they have their own livelihood to worry about.
I can see no good coming out of this, and since when did any of you care about the intellectual rights of a company that hardly is a victim of the idea that their game is the only product that manages to keep an entire industry consisting of numerous broadcasting companies, corporate sponsors, internet sites, alive. The industy was alive because we watched through the good times and the bad. Supported the players. Skipped classes to watch our favourite players live. Spent hours on numerous internet communities discussing the more important issues going on in the scene. It was the people's interest in the scene that allowed the scene to grow. And now Blizzard/Gretech wants to take all that away.
You can justify that all you want. I say it's total fucking bullshit. Blizzard didn't the scene. They shouldn't be able to hold us all at a gun point just because they made the game. It was the players. The teams that paid them. The broadcasters who employed professional observers, map-makers, casters and commentators. The fans who stood by their players and teams, the fans who got the broadcasting companies the necessary raitings. The fans who got the internet sites to stay alive with their non-stop activity within it.
Many of us, in one small way or the other. Made this entire thing happen. E-Sports wouldn't ahve existed without Blizzard? Fuck that. It wouldn't have existed without a lot of things clicking just right. Why the fuck would anybody empathize Blizzard's needs to disregard all the blood, sweat and tears devoted to get E-Sports to the point it is at now, for whatever the fuck it is that they feel we as a community owe to them for making such a great fucking game. I thought the debt was over the moment I paid for the game. But no. They feel I must bow down and suck on their crotch everytime I want to enjoy the by-products of their game. Apparently I can't enjoy shit without having to grovel for their permission and paying them money EVERY FUCKING TIME I WANT TO WATCH IT ON TELEVISION.
Don't you get it? We're the customers. We sustained the scene with our interest, which the corporate sponsors deemed enough in return for the pleasure of watching this amazing thing that is not available anywhere else. Now Blizzard comes barging in and starts to make demands that is way over-board both in terms of control and fincially speaking. They're not just fucking with Kespa here. They are FUCKING WITH YOU. STOP BEING HAPPY THAT YOU'RE BEING VIOLATED ANALLY BY A BUNCH OF MONEY HUNGRY FUCKHEADS.
Blizzard is essentially saying you can't fucking enjoy E-Sports without us getting our pockets full. Want to play our game? Pay us. Want to play our game on television. Pay us. Want to watch our game on television. FUCKING PAY US.
What part the E-Sports scene in Korea being threatened, Blizzard's message that what we do with their products will never be legally viable without their permission, and all the work we as a community have put in, no matter how small or insignificant in the grand scope of things, being PISSED ON by those fuckers. Why are some retards here celebrating the presence of a dictatorship on something that was not perfect, but relatively free from all this bullshit that has nothing to do with the beauty of the industry? Why are these mindless drones essentially mumbling: "OH CREATOR OF STARCRAFT WE BOW DOWN TO THEE AND WE ALL GLAD TO MEET YOUR INCESSANT NEED FOR MORE MONEY AND POWER. FUCK KESPA AND FUCK BROOD WARS. WE WILL PAY ALL THE CASH. WE WILL PAY ALL THE INTELLECTUAL RIGHTS EVERY TIME WE PLAY YOUR GAME COMPETITIVELY."
I say fuck that. And fuck you if you think we owe Blizzard a cent for something they hardly touched on all these years and have benefitted greatly from. It's the ultimate betrayal, and you have some serious issues of sadomasochism if you are greatly interested in making Blizzard richer even if it means having to sacrifice on your part.
So much ignorance here. It makes me so fucking sad that the BW leagues chances of survival are slowly unraveling, while kids on TL bicker like idiots over things that do not matter.
I really don't care what side you choose to support, since in the end your support means nothing to them, unless you do something about it. Instead of throwing words at each other uselessly let's take action before its too late. Kespa might be acting stupid in your opinion but they are our only hope in this war to continue to enjoy the BW proleagues.
Blizzard wants everything, and everything their way. If they had brought these issues up eight years ago then I would have had to support them. But now they are only bringing it up because of SC2. Well, SC2 is fucking boring. I and many others have no interest in watching SC2. Absolutely none. Speaking for myself now; I think that E-Sports is great. Playing video games for a living is cool. But if BW must be sacrificed in order to have that... then fuck Blizzard and fuck GOM.
I will not sit by and let these corporate assholes destroy something that I love this much. Even if you support Blizzard then you must realize that if GOM has their way we will be left with no more Proleagues. Has that sunk in yet? No more Jaedong, no more Flash, no more anything. This will hurt E-Sports more than help it. Once the hype is gone will SC2 survive as a 'spectator sport'? I don't know, probably not in my opinion. But BW has already been through the fire, it's already found a place in many people's hearts and managed to stay their for a decade.
To be a professional BW player is a long, hard road. In the end, unless you are Nada or Savior, you will not make much money. You will not be very famous outside of Korea, or inside for that matter if you never do well. Your skill set is limited to... playing Starcraft. Your hopes of finding a decent job outside of anything Starcraft related is ludicrously bad. So then why do it? Simple, the love of the game and the fans. In almost every interview I've read with progamers; they always thank the fans. Well I think its high time we started giving back.
SC2's success is all about money. I get the feeling more people are playing it because of the prize pools more than anything. It is being forced down our throats by Blizzard, and I don't like the taste. If you want to make a game and then whore it out as an 'e-sport' then be my guest Blizz, but don't touch BW. Watching and playing this game give me more joy than I can put into words. I love it, and I will fight to keep it alive.
So their are two ways this can end well. We can hope for a miracle or Kespa gives in to GOM's demands, which isn't going to happen for two reasons: Kespa has way too much pride, and Kespa simply doesn't have the money! GOM is incessantly telling them about all these fees they have to pay and how Kespa screwed GOM in the past and all this political bullshit. Well there is almost no money in the proleagues and GOM fucking knows it. It sounds to me like GOM wants revenge or something, and that means wiping Kespa out. Which in turn means the death of BW...
Let's band together for once, I'm begging you TL. Don't let them take our game away. We should be pooling our collective resources (which are great and many) trying to stop this instead of useless discussion over trivial matters. Blizzard created Starcraft, but they did not create the proleagues. If Van Gogh had kept all his paintings in his house and charged people to see them, do you think he would be respected and admired as he is today? Of course not. He may have created the paintings, but he certainly did not create and foster other people's love for them. He simply did something that he loved and was good at, and it resonated with people.
Well that is what Starcraft has done for me. Blizzard created a game, put some love and time into it and it resonated with me. Now they want to destroy a community that supports that? For what? The GSL?! FUCK THAT. FUCK YOUR POLITICS. I JUST WANT TO WATCH JAEDONG BEAT FLASH. I just want to watch BW at its pinnacle and listen to overly excited Koreans. I just want to trash talk Bisu fanboys. I just want everything to be as it was. These negotiations have already damaged the proleagues image enough that if they do survive somehow, they will have more trouble than ever finding sponsors. Let's show the corporations that it isn't just about money. It's about us: the fans. Without us none of this would exist.
Well I'm going to start exercising the tiny bit of power I have. Alone I am weak but together we can have a say in how this will end.
Thanks for writing this guys, Everyone skimming the thread make sure you read these!
Surely we can help influence Blizzard moreso than the Korean fans. Blizzcon is coming up on October 22nd. Maybe those attending can make our outspoken SC1 fan voices heard. We've taken so much from the Korean proscene, it's time we gave back! Can TL help save Korean SCBW?
if ur talking about history, then kespa definitely did more to promote e-sport than blizz. kespa ran 3 leagues 52 weeks a year. blizzard runs what... Blizzcon Invitational.
blizz is a for-profit company. they are not promoting SC/SC2 out of goodness of their heart. they do it for money. kespa on the other hand is a non-profit org established by the Ministry of Culture. they also promote 22 other titles and arrange televised matches for the other games too.
if anything, the benefit of the doubt should go to kespa and the Ministry of Culture.
.... They were approved by the Ministry of Culture not established by them.
Look this is black and white. Blizzard apparently has visions of how e-sports should be and they want to guide e-sport to that. To do that they need control and moderation of people promoting e-sport which is Kespa. Kespa likes their monopoly on Korean e-sport and doesn't like to be controlled or competed against, so they play their power and influence card. Blizzard goes to their competitor GOMTV who is willing to be moderated by blizzard. I mean who wouldn't? You control the Starcraft franchise, you basically control pro-gaming industry in Korea.
So care to explain me their "vision". From the tidbits we are getting I can see that if they have indeed a "vision" that "vision" sucks... Big time. Just look at the way they made Battle.Net, how they claim to have right on everything etc. Did they even tried to establish pro-team? Pay players regular salary so they can devote their life to play their beloved games..
Even worse, that we can watch BW for free, they want to charge fans for watching vods and streams. All I can see is a greedy company which tries to milk fans as much as possible. They are on the way to ruin SC:BW but they don't understand that actually if they do that they will shoot themselves in a foot in the long run.
The truth is just simple. BW grew into e-sport unexpectedly and it was fans who loved the game that made it possible. How I see the situation right now is the following: A few greedy assholes trying to maximize their short-run profits by shoving their new shiny game into my throat. At the same time they don't care about the long-term future of the game. All they want is to ride the fact that the game is new and make more money. They realize that it is possible to get some extra money not only from selling copies of their game but also from "e-sports" and they are trying to do that without having a clue what it takes to establish a proper professional scene.
My feelings on the case. Blizzard definitely is losing its image quickly in my eyes.
well put, very well put. ugh, blizzard is fucking raging me hard on their antics as of late. its funny how they want to charge 50 bux to watch GSL ROFL
gunslinger, i'm already doing my part, voting with my pocketbook. blizzard won't get me to buy another game until they change their antics. i won't buy sc2, all 3 of their expansion packs, and i won't buy d3 at this rate. professional SC:BW is what keeps my love of this beautiful game alive, and if they destroy that, they are no different then fucking EA to my eyes. just another shitty game software company.
hope they see the light. to those attending blizzcon, please hold up signs protesting the idiocy of the stance blizzard is taking. LEAVE SC:BW ALONE!
Now we can surmise what was behind that $1 contract with Gretech. Exhorbitant fees on everything Gretech does. Why else would they charge ridiculous rates for streams and VODs? They're not stupid, they know what the reaction would be. I think Gretech was hoping the hype surrounding SC2 would propel it so high that it would be worth it in the end, but now they're not too sure. KeSPA must be secretly laughing now.
gretech/blizzard can fuck off. it's obvious that they want to destroy the proleague/disband teams so that flash/jaedong will move onto sc2. they want to force the players to their game because the fans will follow the players, and they can't do that without destroying bw.
Selling intellectual property rights to OGN and MBC, when they do not own and have never owned the rights to Starcraf
It's not clear at all who has rights to what. Look at it this way: if you organize a league, pay for vanues, pay for player's contracts, their training houses, coaches, cleaning stuff, cooking and what not would you feel you are morally entitled to charge money from tv stations who broadcast your leagues ? Do you think people who invented the game your league play and have rights to sell equipment necessary are entittled to charge the money ?
The answers may vary depends on your moral system this is why we have law regulating those things. What answer law gives ? We don't know. It's very sensible that law in different countries gives different answers. Matter is not clearcut and people in their countries could decide to solve those things differently.
You can't deny though that Kespa should get the biggest chunk of it and Blizzard only small if anything at all. Afterall it's Kespa's league, players, commentators, venues and whole product (progaming scene) is manufactured only by them.
I cannot express in words how much I love sc1. It occupies at least 90% of the time I set aside for entertainment. I spend more hours watching sc1 on youtube and reading interviews and whatever else on TL than every other media outlet combined. DVD's, TV, Movies, Books, and whatever else you name it. If blizzard fucks this up for me, i'm done supporting their company. I know this won't hurt them all that much in the long run, but I don't care I just can't personally support a company who would do this to thousands of dedicated fans who made the starcraft franchise as popular as it is today. I also love playing it and I fear without the korean proscene the numbers will dwindle on iccup so that will also be ruined for me. All I can say to blizzard is fuck you leave my entertainment alone. I've supported your games since diablo 1 when I was like 12, can't you just do this for me?
Regardless of kespa's past actions, I have to say that I'm with them on this one. But rushing to judgments too quickly in this case when there's an NDA probably isn't a good idea. If Brood War dies though, I will be so pissed.
On September 02 2010 09:41 FishForThought wrote: It is like what if the NHL won't let players go off and play in the Olympics?
No, MSL/OSL/PL = NHL WCG = Olympics GOM = AHL
Someone with a NHL-contract wouldn't be allowed to play in an AHL-team unless forced to by their coach, would they? Korea sends their progamers to WCG every year. This year they're sending 3 as always.
On September 02 2010 09:16 insanet wrote: Guys, Keep It Simple. who wants PL dead? Gretech,Blizzard who wants PL alive ? KESPA.
i dont care who did some shit in the past. Im with the one who wants PL alive.
Well said. 'Nuff said.
It is extremely discomforting to know that fellow human beings can think like this.
Ignoring anything related to starcraft for a moment, you should know that oversimplifying things like that is primitive and a good way to enable very bad things to happen in the world.
On September 02 2010 09:16 insanet wrote: Guys, Keep It Simple. who wants PL dead? Gretech,Blizzard who wants PL alive ? KESPA.
i dont care who did some shit in the past. Im with the one who wants PL alive.
Well said. 'Nuff said.
It is extremely discomforting to know that fellow human beings can think like this.
Ignoring anything related to starcraft for a moment, you should know that oversimplifying things like that is primitive and a good way to enable very bad things to happen in the world.
The exact same thing can be said about overcomplicating things.
I'm wondering why this is not a frontpage news, I heard it from a friend and couldn't believe it. I normally dont pay attention to such threads as its mostly bullshit, but this is very serious and should be a front page article to draw the attention to it it deserves.
I am really surprised that you people are surprised that blizzard is doing this.. Since Wow came, all they see is money money money... They are greedy bastards and because of it, i didnt even buy starcraft 2, and i wont. And its sooo booring to watch compared to sc1..
SC2 might be fun to play, but he's right. It's really boring to watch. Just because other people are dumb enough to think SC2 > SC1 doesn't mean everyone will bend over and take their commercialized shit (Read SC2) in the ass.
On September 02 2010 16:45 LOcDowN wrote: Sorry Samurai- but SC2 is very fun. I hate to break it to you but people are moving on.
I hate it to break it to you, but some of us aren't. I find SC2 incredibly boring to watch, and I love the BW scene. I'll be pissed as hell if KeSPA loses this. )=< CMON KESPA, SHOW THEM YOUR JD DEATH STARE
On September 02 2010 16:45 LOcDowN wrote: Sorry Samurai- but SC2 is very fun. I hate to break it to you but people are moving on.
Nah it's not. Quite mediocre imo. For me it will never replace SC:BW.
I would say most BW players think the same way. But too bad, because it doesn't matter. SC2 is the most popular strategy game right now and it is where all the tournaments and money are at. Korea is the only place in the world that BW still had a chance to live on, but by the looks of it it may not happen
Hah, great buffert of BW fans here going "Yeah fuck off SC2." Loving it. Anyway yes true that SC2 isn't really the same as watching BW, or at least in my humble opinion. And in the end I think I'll have to side with KeSPA on this, not because they are better people or anything even remotely similar, but because they made sure people could watch for free, which in my opinion is the best thing for the eSports since... I dunno, Multiplayer?
Just watch the latest poll on how many will pay to watch the GSL, I mean sure it's not the whole eSports community sure. But it's a nice gap between "Yes" and "No".
I think I'm going to have to side with Kespa on this; 0$ or GTFO
It was nice of gretech to throw out its draconian pricing to remind everyone the rights that activision is claiming. They are currently within their rights to require similar compensation from all tournaments.
Hopefully this will come down to court cases and we'll end up with some rights as game owners that the IP holder can't deny us.
On August 31 2010 23:50 night terrors wrote: Completely understandable for KeSPA as well.
No it's not, Kespa are like 80 year olds just sitting down saying "we don't want change, we are happy with BW", and everyone else is like SC2 is the now, the future. I think Kespa's pride is too big to accept SC2, and would rather let itself crumble.
On September 02 2010 17:14 Woosung wrote: SC2 might be fun to play, but he's right. It's really boring to watch. Just because other people are dumb enough to think SC2 > SC1 doesn't mean everyone will bend over and take their commercialized shit (Read SC2) in the ass.
Perhaps boring for you to watch but most people seem to love watching SC2. Have you realized how popular the SC2 streams have been ever since beta came out? It has only been getting more more popular.
On August 31 2010 23:50 night terrors wrote: Completely understandable for KeSPA as well.
No it's not, Kespa are like 80 year olds just sitting down saying "we don't want change, we are happy with BW", and everyone else is like SC2 is the now, the future. I think Kespa's pride is too big to accept SC2, and would rather let itself crumble.
BW still has a large following in Korea, and there is still high demand by the fans, so why would KeSPA want to cut off the supply? Meanwhile, Blizzard is attempting to kill off BW so that they can cram SC2 further down people's throats and artificially shift demand over to it. If SC2 does prove to be as successful of an esport (able to bring in the fans season after season, draw in sponsors for teams and leagues, etc) then the demand would shift on its own. Throwing hype and money at it and trying to make it stick isn't a long term solution.
the only ppl that watch SC2 are players who want to learn strategies because the game is new. the percentage of casual esports fans is very very low. once these players move onto another game, who will watch SC2?
Fucking Activision. This all goes back to them. After the whole infinity ward scandal, its clear just how dirty Activision is. Come on Activision, destroy BW and see how successful its successor is.
Edit: SC2 is ONLY successful because of BW, period. Its popularity is a tribute to the success of its predecessor. People may think that the world is moving on, but SC2 as it stands now does not have the ability to become the global e-sport that is BW. That can change in time, but forcibly destroying pro-BW is only going to cripple SC2 in the coming years. SC2 is popular because its new, but like all things the majority of people playing will move on to the next big thing in the coming months. Even if it remains popular, SC2 still has 2 expansions before its a completed game, so how is an incomplete game supposed to replace to most successful e-sport game?
On September 02 2010 17:14 Woosung wrote: SC2 might be fun to play, but he's right. It's really boring to watch. Just because other people are dumb enough to think SC2 > SC1 doesn't mean everyone will bend over and take their commercialized shit (Read SC2) in the ass.
Perhaps boring for you to watch but most people seem to love watching SC2. Have you realized how popular the SC2 streams have been ever since beta came out? It has only been getting more more popular.
A significant portion of the people on BW streams play very little and are simply there to spectate and enjoy the games, that is eSports. Whilst it can be said that the majority of people on SC2 streams are newbs trying to learn shit rather than spectators watching for entertainment. (Don't even try to contend that SC2 blobs > BW screaming fangirls)
On September 02 2010 17:14 Woosung wrote: SC2 might be fun to play, but he's right. It's really boring to watch. Just because other people are dumb enough to think SC2 > SC1 doesn't mean everyone will bend over and take their commercialized shit (Read SC2) in the ass.
Perhaps boring for you to watch but most people seem to love watching SC2. Have you realized how popular the SC2 streams have been ever since beta came out? It has only been getting more more popular.
A significant portion of the people on BW streams play very little and are simply there to spectate and enjoy the games, that is eSports. Whilst it can be said that the majority of people on SC2 streams are newbs trying to learn shit rather than spectators watching for entertainment. (Don't even try to contend that SC2 blobs > BW screaming fangirls)
I have to agree with that, every single one of my friends and myself when we actually watch starcraft 2 streams we are only doing it to learn new strats.
With Broodwar though I watch it just because it is so much more enjoyable, I still follow all the leagues despite rarely playing broodwar anymore, something which I cannot imagine if I stopped playing starcraft 2
On August 31 2010 23:50 night terrors wrote: Completely understandable for KeSPA as well.
No it's not, Kespa are like 80 year olds just sitting down saying "we don't want change, we are happy with BW", and everyone else is like SC2 is the now, the future. I think Kespa's pride is too big to accept SC2, and would rather let itself crumble.
in KOREA, i dont think everyone is gunning for SC2. sure, overseas, it might be getting more and popular..but in Korea SC2 is still pretty stagnant.
On August 31 2010 23:50 night terrors wrote: Completely understandable for KeSPA as well.
No it's not, Kespa are like 80 year olds just sitting down saying "we don't want change, we are happy with BW", and everyone else is like SC2 is the now, the future. I think Kespa's pride is too big to accept SC2, and would rather let itself crumble.
in KOREA, i dont think everyone is gunning for SC2. sure, overseas, it might be getting more and popular..but in Korea SC2 is still pretty stagnant.
Whats up with the stupid comments "SCII is the most popular RTS game" and shit? ask urself why? cause its in a freaking hype cause blizzard is throwing money at it. so the hype wont stop. and since the beta iam sooooooo sure that if the game would be called "jew war 2k" or whatever. atleast 50% of the people would call thsi game shit. wouldn even touch it.
but because it has the "starcraft" name and its from blizzard many of this SCII fanboys think they love SCII. but the truth is the love the name and Blizzard but not the game.
so wait till the fucking hype its over or u think its a long term thing 2 throw mass money at it? who the fuck cares about some 80k for the winner tournaments? if they dont get the teams. the salaray and everything. without teams and shit it will sooner or later go down like Wc3. it may live till the next great (mb from blizzard) RTS game.
On September 02 2010 22:59 rasers wrote: Whats up with the stupid comments "SCII is the most popular RTS game" and shit? ask urself why? cause its in a freaking hype cause blizzard is throwing money at it. so the hype wont stop. and since the beta iam sooooooo sure that if the game would be called "jew war 2k" or whatever. atleast 50% of the people would call thsi game shit. wouldn even touch it.
but because it has the "starcraft" name and its from blizzard many of this SCII fanboys think they love SCII. but the truth is the love the name and Blizzard but not the game.
so wait till the fucking hype its over or u think its a long term thing 2 throw mass money at it? who the fuck cares about some 80k for the winner tournaments? if they dont get the teams. the salaray and everything. without teams and shit it will sooner or later go down like Wc3. it may live till the next great (mb from blizzard) RTS game.
User was temp banned for this post.
Wtf "jew war"? That's a pity, cuz the core content of what you said was legit and I kinda agree with it.
Blizzard doesn't realize that Kespa is basically the reason why BW has lasted so long. Loads of money in tournaments is nothing if there is no central organization, no teams, no salary, and nobody to organize tournaments when the game will start declining. There wouldn't be OSL, MSL and Shinhan if Kespa was not making so much effort to keep the game alive, to look for sponsor season after season etc...
No profit making organization would do that. They would switch to the next popular game.
I also agree that BW player wouldn't have even played the game if it hadn't been called Starcraft 2, since it's vastly inferior to the original. Now the thing is that the reason why people switched massively is, precisely, the vast amount of money and tournaments right now.
I won't buy any Blizzard product anymore. And I won't make any effort to get interested in their new game.
On September 02 2010 22:59 rasers wrote: Whats up with the stupid comments "SCII is the most popular RTS game" and shit? ask urself why? cause its in a freaking hype cause blizzard is throwing money at it. so the hype wont stop. and since the beta iam sooooooo sure that if the game would be called "jew war 2k" or whatever. atleast 50% of the people would call thsi game shit. wouldn even touch it.
but because it has the "starcraft" name and its from blizzard many of this SCII fanboys think they love SCII. but the truth is the love the name and Blizzard but not the game.
so wait till the fucking hype its over or u think its a long term thing 2 throw mass money at it? who the fuck cares about some 80k for the winner tournaments? if they dont get the teams. the salaray and everything. without teams and shit it will sooner or later go down like Wc3. it may live till the next great (mb from blizzard) RTS game.
User was temp banned for this post.
Wtf "jew war"? That's a pity, cuz the core content of what you said was legit and I kinda agree with it.
Blizzard doesn't realize that Kespa is basically the reason why BW has lasted so long. Loads of money in tournaments is nothing if there is no central organization, no teams, no salary, and nobody to organize tournaments when the game will start declining. There wouldn't be OSL, MSL and Shinhan if Kespa was not making so much effort to keep the game alive, to look for sponsor season after season etc...
No profit making organization would do that. They would switch to the next popular game.
I also agree that BW player wouldn't have even played the game if it hadn't been called Starcraft 2, since it's vastly inferior to the original. Now the thing is that the reason why people switched massively is, precisely, the vast amount of money and tournaments right now.
I won't buy any Blizzard product anymore. And I won't make any effort to get interested in their new game.
Nice, I wholeheartedly agree, except for the jew part, "Hypecraft" would've suited better.
Many here think KeSPA is a evil monolithic entity who imprisons their players and holds Korean e-sports hostage. Nothing can be further from the truth. Think NFL or NBA or Premier League. It's an association with team owners and stakeholders. E-sports is too young and not enough money in it yet to have player associations but it will come if it grows, completing the similarities between KeSPA and the aforementioned associations. Unless Blizzard manages to destroy it that is.
I don't know why everyone is lumping Gretech in with Blizzard with regards to their negotiation of rights, Blizzard pretty clearly handed off all korean eSports related tasks to Gretech, probably with a series of goals and target payments but it would be extremely unlikely that they would directly influence licensing policy after that initial point.
More to the point though, Gretech seem to be just trying to push it as far as they can to put KeSPA in a concillatory position, this sort of thing happens heavily in high risk/reward business decisions, typically during mergers and buyouts. KeSPA seem to be attempting to leverage public support in order to not concede any power with regards to players and sponsors on the existing leagues, while Gretech are attempting to scare the shit out of KeSPa. Gretech are in the position where they can remove the Proleague and other leagues, in terms of short and long term gain for Gretech themselves it's going to be the best option short of KeSPa completely capitulating. As much as people would like to believe that everyone would boycott the GSL and all this nonsense as a result, it simply won't happen and the vocal minority are not the target of the sponsorship deals that sustain eSports. If they continue to let KeSPA undermine their credibility and more importantly act as a considerately more entrenched and powerful competitor the company will not see the growth that's expected.
Of course they'd much rather skip the public relations debaucle that results from this, but they are in the position of having complete power, while KeSPA are relying entirely on the loyalty of constituent sponsors, many of whom have changed significantly over the years and will continue to change. KeSPA, despite their name, are not driven by a unionistic attitude to securing rights and stability for the players, in many ways they've done far more to harm them by institutionalising a system that screws over the vast majority of professional players, so it can be very dangerous to hold them up as a paragon of virtue in comparison to Gretech. The loss of proleague and KeSPA could be the best thing to happen to eSports going forward and it really doesn't mean the end of brood war as a spectator sport.
Personally I don't care either way, I prefer knockout tournaments over the long league structure of the Proleague, I find it too hard to keep up with all the games and trends, but I see the appeal and understand people's reactions to the idea that it will be gone.
On September 03 2010 00:48 leakingpear wrote: The loss of proleague and KeSPA could be the best thing to happen to eSports going forward and it really doesn't mean the end of brood war as a spectator sport.
I don't quite agree with that. Proleague is the back bone of the professional scene of broodwar.
Personally I don't care either way, I prefer knockout tournaments over the long league structure of the Proleague, I find it too hard to keep up with all the games and trends, but I see the appeal and understand people's reactions to the idea that it will be gone.
Proleague is the veyr heart and soul of BW. If Proleauge dies then BW will die. It's existence gives companies a reason to invest in BW still (Hite gets x10 more airtime from PL than Leta appearing in the OSL for instance). It gives commentators real jobs, it gives fans something to cheer for. And after all, PL traditionally is the event that more korean fans follow. So yea, losing PL is a massive deal.
It certainly won't be the same afterwards, but the OSL will continue, there will still be a significant market enough that Gretech would almost have to create a reconcillatory tournament system to make up for the loss, they'll just be able to appropriately curtail its activity so it's seen much more of a 'the old timer's game' more than 'the better game'. I don't think it's unreasonable due to the large amount of existing fanbase, established celebrity players and that a lot of the low level infrastructure would be re-usable (all the mid and low level Proleague and team staff will still need jobs). That said you're right in that it would probably disappear or be severely cut down until SC2 and the GSL were considered the de facto top korean eSport. That said I don't think that happening is at all unlikely, as hard as the die-hard SCBW fans find that to believe, the money is there, once the infrastructure is in and there are teams and celebrity players for fans to latch onto, the promotion train essentially starts feeding itself.
On September 02 2010 09:41 FishForThought wrote: It is like what if the NHL won't let players go off and play in the Olympics?
The equivlent to playing in the Olympics would be WCG which KeSPA has had no problem with....
I used Olympics and NHL as examples because they are direct competition of each other in terms of broadcasting. Also, NHL had to yield to Olympics by stopping all NHL games for the duration of the Olympics.
With Papa Blizzard tossing money to GomTV, the prize money and tournament can be bigger than PL, which would attract the top players to attend and conflict with operations of PL.
I don't think Blizzard/GomTv are evil. I mean they push for English Commentators and foreigner exposure. Something that Kespa did not even try to do because they were happy with their little bubble of the three leagues. GSL gave team TL, a chance to compete in the Korean scene. If it was Kespa, they would of told TL to ask the 12 pro-gaming team to assimilate them or each member to compete for a pro-gamer license first. Again, I would like advocate that I don't feel pro-gaming and esport are the same thing. I think Blizzard/GomTV is better for esport by hosting easily accessible tournaments and world exposure while Kespa is better for the pro-gaming scene with their 12 elite teams. It would be great if they can each realize their roles and co-exist.
I don't know why everyone is lumping Gretech in with Blizzard with regards to their negotiation of rights, Blizzard pretty clearly handed off all korean eSports related tasks to Gretech, probably with a series of goals and target payments but it would be extremely unlikely that they would directly influence licensing policy after that initial point.
Gretech is more or less the result of Blizzard trying to extend it's IP rights into Korea, many years ago, since a law suit between two different countries, even if they have similar laws or are involved in many international treaties, would be fairly pointless as the courts are unlikely to rule in favor of another country.
However to me Gretech is what Kespa should have been X years ago... A partner working with the guys who are making the product, rather than a partner that has been biting and scratching at Blizzard almost the whole way thru to try and make more... Makes me kinda sad that all of this is likely going to be decided by some judge who knows nothing of gaming or esports in general.
As much as I feel for the players who have gotten jobs from Kespa teams... I'm not sure it's a good thing for Kespa to keep operating. =/
Personally I don't care either way, I prefer knockout tournaments over the long league structure of the Proleague, I find it too hard to keep up with all the games and trends, but I see the appeal and understand people's reactions to the idea that it will be gone.
Proleague is the veyr heart and soul of BW. If Proleauge dies then BW will die. It's existence gives companies a reason to invest in BW still (Hite gets x10 more airtime from PL than Leta appearing in the OSL for instance). It gives commentators real jobs, it gives fans something to cheer for. And after all, PL traditionally is the event that more korean fans follow. So yea, losing PL is a massive deal.
That is the case now, I agree, but it doesn't mean a sport cannot succeed built only on tournaments, works quite well for tennis (or snooker if you prefer a non mainstream example), though the playtime/match would have to be increased, which wouldn't be a problem if proleague was out of the picture, you could even play matches in several sittings if the "required airtime" was more than the players could handle.
On September 03 2010 01:45 Storm[PT] wrote: But the thing is, if proleague dies, OSL would die too; the whole infrastructure would crumble.
My implication is that there would be an infrastructure to replace it if there is a significant market that is easily monetised. I could be wrong, Gretech could be the most stubborn and emotionally driven company in the world, but realistically i'd expect that they (or someone licensing from them) would not dream of leaving all the prospective advertising money of an entrenched and popular spectator sport, on the proverbial table. I guess that kind of responds to you too Plexa?
I'm just trying to provide some context to the decision making here other than assuming that two large organisations are children fighting over which one has the better toys.
Personally I don't care either way, I prefer knockout tournaments over the long league structure of the Proleague, I find it too hard to keep up with all the games and trends, but I see the appeal and understand people's reactions to the idea that it will be gone.
Proleague is the veyr heart and soul of BW. If Proleauge dies then BW will die. It's existence gives companies a reason to invest in BW still (Hite gets x10 more airtime from PL than Leta appearing in the OSL for instance). It gives commentators real jobs, it gives fans something to cheer for. And after all, PL traditionally is the event that more korean fans follow. So yea, losing PL is a massive deal.
Additionally, Proleague is the only reason progaming teams really exist (as we know them). Individual leagues only show off the top % of players. If progaming teams existed only to train for the top leagues, there would be a lot less of them made of only the top % of players. Lesser players (still A-teamers, but not prize-money quality) would just be wasting their time. With team leagues, a lot more people get to play for the team through the season, and as such need to train in their teams for it. Currently, most teams have around 2-3 "starleague" players that make regular appearances, the rest drop out in the ro32 or prelims.
Take proleague away, and progaming teams crumble. Take progaming teams away and individual leagues dwindle down as well.
I love how some kids who just started playing SC2 and have no clue about SC:BW say stupidest ever. Blizzard/Gretech are being unreasonable - all this drama started because they basically wanted to remove brood war progaming to make space for starcraft 2. Of course that isn't happening - you can't just take down a "national sport" by force. It is totally understandable for me that Kespa, a nonprofit organization that has existed for the purpose of nurturing this culture of e-sports, is doing what they can to continue the existence of the said culture. Guess what will happen to starcraft e-sports iff Kespa is gone - it will be gone too! Whoa?! BTW let me clarify something yet again in these forums, tournament money doesn't mean much to the progamers. Winning tournaments gives progamers the PRESTIGE necessary to gain a better contract from their teams, which constitutes most of their earnings. Understand? So GSL is not a big deal. If there's GSL but no proleague/MSL/OSL, korean brood war esports is dead. Period.
Personally I don't care either way, I prefer knockout tournaments over the long league structure of the Proleague, I find it too hard to keep up with all the games and trends, but I see the appeal and understand people's reactions to the idea that it will be gone.
Proleague is the veyr heart and soul of BW. If Proleauge dies then BW will die. It's existence gives companies a reason to invest in BW still (Hite gets x10 more airtime from PL than Leta appearing in the OSL for instance). It gives commentators real jobs, it gives fans something to cheer for. And after all, PL traditionally is the event that more korean fans follow. So yea, losing PL is a massive deal.
That is the case now, I agree, but it doesn't mean a sport cannot succeed built only on tournaments, works quite well for tennis (or snooker if you prefer a non mainstream example), though the playtime/match would have to be increased, which wouldn't be a problem if proleague was out of the picture, you could even play matches in several sittings if the "required airtime" was more than the players could handle.
the only reason tennis/golf work is that players are paid almost regardless of where they place. even if you dont win or come that close to winning you still get money to support yourself. unless you are willing to split that 80k in descending amounts among the top 16 at the least in every tourny, its not going to work. and 80k split 16 ways becomes much less appealing.
On September 03 2010 01:57 leakingpear wrote: That precludes the idea of team based short tournaments which is somewhat absurd given the need for teams as a training tool.
So you rather have no sponsored teams? People living in cramped apartments living of instant ramen every single day? You actually justifies what Gretech is doing and completely negates what players like Boxer, Nal_Ra, NaDa and lots of other great gamers put their heart in to building? Forget about KeSPA and the pro teams, you are supporting that you as a fan should pay more money and the players should have a less training environment just because blizzard say so? Who's immoral really?
It's been said before but the only thing in common these two games has is the name Starcraft, Blizzard isn't even the same company that once produced those golden games. Blizzard died the day BlizzNorth left.
I'm confused, I was saying that you need teams at the very least as a training tool and therefore need to be able to support players who are not directly winning prize money. Prize money is much more of a tool to establish market dominance rather than a way of sustaining the eSport going forward.
It's also really dangerous to hold up the KeSPA model of teams as a good idea, it promotes incredibly long hours, incredibly low pay and the entire justification is 'well they can leave if they can't handle it'. They only provide token gestures of maintaining education programs and provide little to no support for the vast majority of players who get older and less proficient. The lack of real world skills means that players that give up huge parts of their life to pursue their dream end up being useless outside that very small, very intensely competitive field. As much as everyone would like to believe that Savior et al are all evil masterminds, they were just incredibly stupid kids with a somewhat realistic attitude to how the future is as a progamer on the bad side of their peak. The reason I say incredibly stupid is because of the absurdly small amount of money involved, which implied far more about the lack of real world education that these kids have more than anything.
edit: I never justified what any party in this shitstorm is doing, I just provided context behind their decision making, business is pragmatic, not emotional and treating it as such is ignoring the issue at hand.
This game was made by the players. They took the game and played it. They didn't care at first that they were poor, that nobody supported them. They played the game. Then the teams came afterward, and then the money started coming in. No, the distribution of wealth is not even, but they still do it. They love the game. Brood War started ESPORTS. While there's no definitive textbook method of creating an ESPORTS market, I am not liking this. If/When Brood War dies because of Starcraft II, what happens to them?
What happens to the Coach Chos, the Lim Yo Hwans, the people that started this game from scratch. Are they forced to start over with SCII? What about the commentators?
I'm really not liking this. If Brood War goes away, I'm going with it. True, the game wasn't perfected and made into its current form for a while, and I'm willing to give Starcraft II a chance.
On September 03 2010 02:38 leakingpear wrote: I'm confused, I was saying that you need teams at the very least as a training tool and therefore need to be able to support players who are not directly winning prize money. Prize money is much more of a tool to establish market dominance rather than a way of sustaining the eSport going forward.
It's also really dangerous to hold up the KeSPA model of teams as a good idea, it promotes incredibly long hours, incredibly low pay and the entire justification is 'well they can leave if they can't handle it'. They only provide token gestures of maintaining education programs and provide little to no support for the vast majority of players who get older and less proficient. The lack of real world skills means that players that give up huge parts of their life to pursue their dream end up being useless outside that very small, very intensely competitive field. As much as everyone would like to believe that Savior et al are all evil masterminds, they were just incredibly stupid kids with a somewhat realistic attitude to how the future is as a progamer on the bad side of their peak. The reason I say incredibly stupid is because of the absurdly small amount of money involved, which implied far more about the lack of real world education that these kids have more than anything.
And why should you or I or blizzard control what they should do or not. They CAN leave whenever they want and go get a job just like everyone else. KeSPA is not forcing them to stay in e-sports or anything like that.
On September 03 2010 02:38 leakingpear wrote: I'm confused, I was saying that you need teams at the very least as a training tool and therefore need to be able to support players who are not directly winning prize money. Prize money is much more of a tool to establish market dominance rather than a way of sustaining the eSport going forward.
It's also really dangerous to hold up the KeSPA model of teams as a good idea, it promotes incredibly long hours, incredibly low pay and the entire justification is 'well they can leave if they can't handle it'. They only provide token gestures of maintaining education programs and provide little to no support for the vast majority of players who get older and less proficient. The lack of real world skills means that players that give up huge parts of their life to pursue their dream end up being useless outside that very small, very intensely competitive field. As much as everyone would like to believe that Savior et al are all evil masterminds, they were just incredibly stupid kids with a somewhat realistic attitude to how the future is as a progamer on the bad side of their peak. The reason I say incredibly stupid is because of the absurdly small amount of money involved, which implied far more about the lack of real world education that these kids have more than anything.
Actually, while you bring up a good point about the nature of progaming, using Savior as an example is a bad move, since he really was just stupid.
See, A/B-teamers do give up a lot, and past their prime their qualifications are dubious. S-class players (especially ones of Savior/Oov/Nada/Boxer/July's caliber) have it made long after their prime. For one, they are kept on their teams with high paying contracts long after their decline as role models/idols because they bring in the fans, even though they may not play much (if at all). Additionally, they are pretty much guaranteed a job should they want to proceed into coaching/commentating. Savior had no actual worries about what would happen with him, he just got greedy.
Back to the topic though, yes, the current team system isn't as good as it can be, but its better than it was and has been improving over the years. esports are still young in nature, and there is a lot to build up. Blizzard however is in the midst of destroying all the progress from the past 10 years.
As an example to moopie's point, WeMade Fox maintains 15+ BW players and 4 WC3 players (and 5 CS players). Take away Proleague and there is no need to maintain such a large roster and the support staff needed with it.
I'm sure most people dislike Kespa, but right now it's not a choice between Kespa and something better but between Kespa and nothing. Gretech is a laughable replacement. They have no intention of supporting the players in any way other than hosting tournaments and giving prize money.
As an aside, I dislike the fact that there is no general governing body for SC2 because you end up with player segregation, which can already be seen with the GSL and the MLG. I don't really care if there are a lot of different tournaments if all the good players aren't competing in them all.
Personally I don't care either way, I prefer knockout tournaments over the long league structure of the Proleague, I find it too hard to keep up with all the games and trends, but I see the appeal and understand people's reactions to the idea that it will be gone.
Proleague is the veyr heart and soul of BW. If Proleauge dies then BW will die. It's existence gives companies a reason to invest in BW still (Hite gets x10 more airtime from PL than Leta appearing in the OSL for instance). It gives commentators real jobs, it gives fans something to cheer for. And after all, PL traditionally is the event that more korean fans follow. So yea, losing PL is a massive deal.
That is the case now, I agree, but it doesn't mean a sport cannot succeed built only on tournaments, works quite well for tennis (or snooker if you prefer a non mainstream example), though the playtime/match would have to be increased, which wouldn't be a problem if proleague was out of the picture, you could even play matches in several sittings if the "required airtime" was more than the players could handle.
the only reason tennis/golf work is that players are paid almost regardless of where they place. even if you dont win or come that close to winning you still get money to support yourself. unless you are willing to split that 80k in descending amounts among the top 16 at the least in every tourny, its not going to work. and 80k split 16 ways becomes much less appealing.
Still, the distribution of prizes is pretty wonky.
On September 03 2010 01:49 FishForThought wrote: I think Blizzard/GomTV is better for esport by hosting easily accessible tournaments and world exposure
It only costs $50/month for dubious services. Outside of hardcore people, I don't really see the general public eating that up.
On September 03 2010 02:15 LastPrime wrote: I love how some kids who just started playing SC2 and have no clue about SC:BW say stupidest ever. Blizzard/Gretech are being unreasonable - all this drama started because they basically wanted to remove brood war progaming to make space for starcraft 2. Of course that isn't happening - you can't just take down a "national sport" by force. It is totally understandable for me that Kespa, a nonprofit organization that has existed for the purpose of nurturing this culture of e-sports, is doing what they can to continue the existence of the said culture. Guess what will happen to starcraft e-sports iff Kespa is gone - it will be gone too! Whoa?! BTW let me clarify something yet again in these forums, tournament money doesn't mean much to the progamers. Winning tournaments gives progamers the PRESTIGE necessary to gain a better contract from their teams, which constitutes most of their earnings. Understand? So GSL is not a big deal. If there's GSL but no proleague/MSL/OSL, korean brood war esports is dead. Period.
Kespa: Non-profit organization?
Wherever there is money to be made in this world, there is a bunch of guys in suits likely making decisions and banking checks. If an organization doesn't have stockholders to split the profits, they have highly paid executives working and cashing in bonuses.
That they have employees, players, commentators, event organisers etc etc etc... is very commendable, but they are still in it for the money, and they are in this situation because they refuse to acknowledge that they should be paying for the IP rights.
On September 03 2010 02:15 LastPrime wrote: I love how some kids who just started playing SC2 and have no clue about SC:BW say stupidest ever. Blizzard/Gretech are being unreasonable - all this drama started because they basically wanted to remove brood war progaming to make space for starcraft 2. Of course that isn't happening - you can't just take down a "national sport" by force. It is totally understandable for me that Kespa, a nonprofit organization that has existed for the purpose of nurturing this culture of e-sports, is doing what they can to continue the existence of the said culture. Guess what will happen to starcraft e-sports iff Kespa is gone - it will be gone too! Whoa?! BTW let me clarify something yet again in these forums, tournament money doesn't mean much to the progamers. Winning tournaments gives progamers the PRESTIGE necessary to gain a better contract from their teams, which constitutes most of their earnings. Understand? So GSL is not a big deal. If there's GSL but no proleague/MSL/OSL, korean brood war esports is dead. Period.
Kespa: Non-profit organization?
Wherever there is money to be made in this world, there is a bunch of guys in suits likely making decisions and banking checks. If an organization doesn't have stockholders to split the profits, they have highly paid executives working and cashing in bonuses.
That they have employees, players, commentators, event organisers etc etc etc... is very commendable, but they are still in it for the money, and they are in this situation because they refuse to acknowledge that they should be paying for the IP rights.
And blizzard should have said from the beginning that they wanted IP right, OH WAIT Activision WASN'T IN THE PICTURE THEN.
On September 03 2010 02:15 LastPrime wrote: I love how some kids who just started playing SC2 and have no clue about SC:BW say stupidest ever. Blizzard/Gretech are being unreasonable - all this drama started because they basically wanted to remove brood war progaming to make space for starcraft 2. Of course that isn't happening - you can't just take down a "national sport" by force. It is totally understandable for me that Kespa, a nonprofit organization that has existed for the purpose of nurturing this culture of e-sports, is doing what they can to continue the existence of the said culture. Guess what will happen to starcraft e-sports iff Kespa is gone - it will be gone too! Whoa?! BTW let me clarify something yet again in these forums, tournament money doesn't mean much to the progamers. Winning tournaments gives progamers the PRESTIGE necessary to gain a better contract from their teams, which constitutes most of their earnings. Understand? So GSL is not a big deal. If there's GSL but no proleague/MSL/OSL, korean brood war esports is dead. Period.
Kespa: Non-profit organization?
Wherever there is money to be made in this world, there is a bunch of guys in suits likely making decisions and banking checks. If an organization doesn't have stockholders to split the profits, they have highly paid executives working and cashing in bonuses.
That they have employees, players, commentators, event organisers etc etc etc... is very commendable, but they are still in it for the money, and they are in this situation because they refuse to acknowledge that they should be paying for the IP rights.
And blizzard should have said from the beginning that they wanted IP right, OH WAIT Activision WASN'T IN THE PICTURE THEN.
Wrong. If there's anything in this entire thread that isn't debatable due to lack of knowledge, it's this: Blizzard approached Kespa quite a while ago to, indeed, protect their IP rights with a stern no and nothing more. All the rest is fallout from there. Blizzard's always asked Kespa to keep their rights in mind, it's only now it's gotten to the point where people are playing a cold war with the games.
On September 03 2010 01:49 Furycrab wrote: However to me Gretech is what Kespa should have been X years ago... A partner working with the guys who are making the product, rather than a partner that has been biting and scratching at Blizzard almost the whole way thru to try and make more... Makes me kinda sad that all of this is likely going to be decided by some judge who knows nothing of gaming or esports in general.
On September 03 2010 02:15 LastPrime wrote: I love how some kids who just started playing SC2 and have no clue about SC:BW say stupidest ever. Blizzard/Gretech are being unreasonable - all this drama started because they basically wanted to remove brood war progaming to make space for starcraft 2. Of course that isn't happening - you can't just take down a "national sport" by force. It is totally understandable for me that Kespa, a nonprofit organization that has existed for the purpose of nurturing this culture of e-sports, is doing what they can to continue the existence of the said culture. Guess what will happen to starcraft e-sports iff Kespa is gone - it will be gone too! Whoa?! BTW let me clarify something yet again in these forums, tournament money doesn't mean much to the progamers. Winning tournaments gives progamers the PRESTIGE necessary to gain a better contract from their teams, which constitutes most of their earnings. Understand? So GSL is not a big deal. If there's GSL but no proleague/MSL/OSL, korean brood war esports is dead. Period.
Kespa: Non-profit organization?
Wherever there is money to be made in this world, there is a bunch of guys in suits likely making decisions and banking checks. If an organization doesn't have stockholders to split the profits, they have highly paid executives working and cashing in bonuses.
That they have employees, players, commentators, event organisers etc etc etc... is very commendable, but they are still in it for the money, and they are in this situation because they refuse to acknowledge that they should be paying for the IP rights.
And blizzard should have said from the beginning that they wanted IP right, OH WAIT Activision WASN'T IN THE PICTURE THEN.
Take off your tinfoil hat, Activision has nothing to do with this.
Blizzard has on multiple occasions stated to Kespa that what they were doing wasn't Kosher with them, and Kespa response on multiple occasion was that they didn't owe blizzard anything other than maybe software copies. Kespa almost wouldn't come to any sort of table for the longest of time just chosing to keep ignoring Blizzard while they spread the profits over a network of various teams, executives and god knows where else you could hide money so that if any law suit broke out they could just say: Kespa makes 0 dinero. They even practically ran GOMtv out of the BW race using it's network of sponsors and players to boycot it.
Still very debatable how much Kespa owes to Blizzard for making the game or how such relations should be managed, however if they are at this point (threatening to disband proleague) is mostly because they burned every bridge they had with Blizzard, multiple times, with Siegetanks.
On September 03 2010 02:15 LastPrime wrote: I love how some kids who just started playing SC2 and have no clue about SC:BW say stupidest ever. Blizzard/Gretech are being unreasonable - all this drama started because they basically wanted to remove brood war progaming to make space for starcraft 2. Of course that isn't happening - you can't just take down a "national sport" by force. It is totally understandable for me that Kespa, a nonprofit organization that has existed for the purpose of nurturing this culture of e-sports, is doing what they can to continue the existence of the said culture. Guess what will happen to starcraft e-sports iff Kespa is gone - it will be gone too! Whoa?! BTW let me clarify something yet again in these forums, tournament money doesn't mean much to the progamers. Winning tournaments gives progamers the PRESTIGE necessary to gain a better contract from their teams, which constitutes most of their earnings. Understand? So GSL is not a big deal. If there's GSL but no proleague/MSL/OSL, korean brood war esports is dead. Period.
Kespa: Non-profit organization?
Wherever there is money to be made in this world, there is a bunch of guys in suits likely making decisions and banking checks. If an organization doesn't have stockholders to split the profits, they have highly paid executives working and cashing in bonuses.
That they have employees, players, commentators, event organisers etc etc etc... is very commendable, but they are still in it for the money, and they are in this situation because they refuse to acknowledge that they should be paying for the IP rights.
And blizzard should have said from the beginning that they wanted IP right, OH WAIT Activision WASN'T IN THE PICTURE THEN.
Wrong. If there's anything in this entire thread that isn't debatable due to lack of knowledge, it's this: Blizzard approached Kespa quite a while ago to, indeed, protect their IP rights with a stern no and nothing more. All the rest is fallout from there. Blizzard's always asked Kespa to keep their rights in mind, it's only now it's gotten to the point where people are playing a cold war with the games.
If you are so well informed might telling us when exactly did blizzard approached them " quite a while ago " ? As far as i know i started watching pro SC at the middle 2007 and IP rights started geting thrown after SC2 was developed to a stage where beta was starting .
On September 03 2010 02:15 LastPrime wrote: I love how some kids who just started playing SC2 and have no clue about SC:BW say stupidest ever. Blizzard/Gretech are being unreasonable - all this drama started because they basically wanted to remove brood war progaming to make space for starcraft 2. Of course that isn't happening - you can't just take down a "national sport" by force. It is totally understandable for me that Kespa, a nonprofit organization that has existed for the purpose of nurturing this culture of e-sports, is doing what they can to continue the existence of the said culture. Guess what will happen to starcraft e-sports iff Kespa is gone - it will be gone too! Whoa?! BTW let me clarify something yet again in these forums, tournament money doesn't mean much to the progamers. Winning tournaments gives progamers the PRESTIGE necessary to gain a better contract from their teams, which constitutes most of their earnings. Understand? So GSL is not a big deal. If there's GSL but no proleague/MSL/OSL, korean brood war esports is dead. Period.
Kespa: Non-profit organization?
Wherever there is money to be made in this world, there is a bunch of guys in suits likely making decisions and banking checks. If an organization doesn't have stockholders to split the profits, they have highly paid executives working and cashing in bonuses.
That they have employees, players, commentators, event organisers etc etc etc... is very commendable, but they are still in it for the money, and they are in this situation because they refuse to acknowledge that they should be paying for the IP rights.
And blizzard should have said from the beginning that they wanted IP right, OH WAIT Activision WASN'T IN THE PICTURE THEN.
Wrong. If there's anything in this entire thread that isn't debatable due to lack of knowledge, it's this: Blizzard approached Kespa quite a while ago to, indeed, protect their IP rights with a stern no and nothing more. All the rest is fallout from there. Blizzard's always asked Kespa to keep their rights in mind, it's only now it's gotten to the point where people are playing a cold war with the games.
If you are so well informed might telling us when exactly did blizzard approached them " quite a while ago " ? As far as i know i started watching pro SC at the middle 2007 and IP rights started geting thrown after SC2 was developed to a stage where beta was starting .
If you can findout when Kespa started charging ticket for live Starcraft events, it's around that time. Pretty sure it's way before 2007 or the Sc2 announcement.
On September 03 2010 02:15 LastPrime wrote: I love how some kids who just started playing SC2 and have no clue about SC:BW say stupidest ever. Blizzard/Gretech are being unreasonable - all this drama started because they basically wanted to remove brood war progaming to make space for starcraft 2. Of course that isn't happening - you can't just take down a "national sport" by force. It is totally understandable for me that Kespa, a nonprofit organization that has existed for the purpose of nurturing this culture of e-sports, is doing what they can to continue the existence of the said culture. Guess what will happen to starcraft e-sports iff Kespa is gone - it will be gone too! Whoa?! BTW let me clarify something yet again in these forums, tournament money doesn't mean much to the progamers. Winning tournaments gives progamers the PRESTIGE necessary to gain a better contract from their teams, which constitutes most of their earnings. Understand? So GSL is not a big deal. If there's GSL but no proleague/MSL/OSL, korean brood war esports is dead. Period.
Kespa: Non-profit organization?
Wherever there is money to be made in this world, there is a bunch of guys in suits likely making decisions and banking checks. If an organization doesn't have stockholders to split the profits, they have highly paid executives working and cashing in bonuses.
That they have employees, players, commentators, event organisers etc etc etc... is very commendable, but they are still in it for the money, and they are in this situation because they refuse to acknowledge that they should be paying for the IP rights.
And blizzard should have said from the beginning that they wanted IP right, OH WAIT Activision WASN'T IN THE PICTURE THEN.
Wrong. If there's anything in this entire thread that isn't debatable due to lack of knowledge, it's this: Blizzard approached Kespa quite a while ago to, indeed, protect their IP rights with a stern no and nothing more. All the rest is fallout from there. Blizzard's always asked Kespa to keep their rights in mind, it's only now it's gotten to the point where people are playing a cold war with the games.
If you are so well informed might telling us when exactly did blizzard approached them " quite a while ago " ? As far as i know i started watching pro SC at the middle 2007 and IP rights started geting thrown after SC2 was developed to a stage where beta was starting .
If you can findout when Kespa started charging ticket for live Starcraft events, it's around that time. Pretty sure it's way before 2007 or the Sc2 announcement.
Nope, Both of you are wrong, It was actually in 2007 that everythin started, around the time SCII was announced, but it is okay if you had missed, since it wasn't such a big deal, Blizzard weren;t threatening to remove ProLeague and such IIRC
On September 03 2010 02:15 LastPrime wrote: I love how some kids who just started playing SC2 and have no clue about SC:BW say stupidest ever. Blizzard/Gretech are being unreasonable - all this drama started because they basically wanted to remove brood war progaming to make space for starcraft 2. Of course that isn't happening - you can't just take down a "national sport" by force. It is totally understandable for me that Kespa, a nonprofit organization that has existed for the purpose of nurturing this culture of e-sports, is doing what they can to continue the existence of the said culture. Guess what will happen to starcraft e-sports iff Kespa is gone - it will be gone too! Whoa?! BTW let me clarify something yet again in these forums, tournament money doesn't mean much to the progamers. Winning tournaments gives progamers the PRESTIGE necessary to gain a better contract from their teams, which constitutes most of their earnings. Understand? So GSL is not a big deal. If there's GSL but no proleague/MSL/OSL, korean brood war esports is dead. Period.
Kespa: Non-profit organization?
Wherever there is money to be made in this world, there is a bunch of guys in suits likely making decisions and banking checks. If an organization doesn't have stockholders to split the profits, they have highly paid executives working and cashing in bonuses.
That they have employees, players, commentators, event organisers etc etc etc... is very commendable, but they are still in it for the money, and they are in this situation because they refuse to acknowledge that they should be paying for the IP rights.
And blizzard should have said from the beginning that they wanted IP right, OH WAIT Activision WASN'T IN THE PICTURE THEN.
Wrong. If there's anything in this entire thread that isn't debatable due to lack of knowledge, it's this: Blizzard approached Kespa quite a while ago to, indeed, protect their IP rights with a stern no and nothing more. All the rest is fallout from there. Blizzard's always asked Kespa to keep their rights in mind, it's only now it's gotten to the point where people are playing a cold war with the games.
If you are so well informed might telling us when exactly did blizzard approached them " quite a while ago " ? As far as i know i started watching pro SC at the middle 2007 and IP rights started geting thrown after SC2 was developed to a stage where beta was starting .
It doesn't matter. Blizzard has always had the IP rights to SC. Other people aren't supposed to profit off of their intellectual property without their permission.
On September 03 2010 02:15 LastPrime wrote: I love how some kids who just started playing SC2 and have no clue about SC:BW say stupidest ever. Blizzard/Gretech are being unreasonable - all this drama started because they basically wanted to remove brood war progaming to make space for starcraft 2. Of course that isn't happening - you can't just take down a "national sport" by force. It is totally understandable for me that Kespa, a nonprofit organization that has existed for the purpose of nurturing this culture of e-sports, is doing what they can to continue the existence of the said culture. Guess what will happen to starcraft e-sports iff Kespa is gone - it will be gone too! Whoa?! BTW let me clarify something yet again in these forums, tournament money doesn't mean much to the progamers. Winning tournaments gives progamers the PRESTIGE necessary to gain a better contract from their teams, which constitutes most of their earnings. Understand? So GSL is not a big deal. If there's GSL but no proleague/MSL/OSL, korean brood war esports is dead. Period.
Kespa: Non-profit organization?
Wherever there is money to be made in this world, there is a bunch of guys in suits likely making decisions and banking checks. If an organization doesn't have stockholders to split the profits, they have highly paid executives working and cashing in bonuses.
That they have employees, players, commentators, event organisers etc etc etc... is very commendable, but they are still in it for the money, and they are in this situation because they refuse to acknowledge that they should be paying for the IP rights.
And blizzard should have said from the beginning that they wanted IP right, OH WAIT Activision WASN'T IN THE PICTURE THEN.
Wrong. If there's anything in this entire thread that isn't debatable due to lack of knowledge, it's this: Blizzard approached Kespa quite a while ago to, indeed, protect their IP rights with a stern no and nothing more. All the rest is fallout from there. Blizzard's always asked Kespa to keep their rights in mind, it's only now it's gotten to the point where people are playing a cold war with the games.
If you are so well informed might telling us when exactly did blizzard approached them " quite a while ago " ? As far as i know i started watching pro SC at the middle 2007 and IP rights started geting thrown after SC2 was developed to a stage where beta was starting .
If you can findout when Kespa started charging ticket for live Starcraft events, it's around that time. Pretty sure it's way before 2007 or the Sc2 announcement.
Nope, Both of you are wrong, It was actually in 2007 that everythin started, around the time SCII was announced, but it is okay if you had missed, since it wasn't such a big deal, Blizzard weren;t threatening to remove ProLeague and such IIRC
2007 was when the talks for SC2 started. BW talks were pretty much at a stalemate because the Korean government in Blizzard vs Kespa over SC1 judged that Kespa should have the same considerations as an organisational body like the FIFA is for another certain sport and thus all decisions should go through them.
You can argue and say that they pretty much gave up on Starcraft, but it's a safe bet when you get the Government involved to resolve a dispute, there are no bridges or even pieces left over to be fixed. So they went with a competitor that was willing to work with them. GOM is certainly not pulling punches now that Kespa has lost network and sponsor support, but seeing the present history of these two bodies... it's not exactly surprising.
this story changes every article that comes out. Usually says statement of stance and unwillingness to negotiate on both sides. Likely all the KESPA siders just love BW and fear it will die, and gretech/blizzard supporters want SC2 to be supported.
I think the story changes by the daily, but really who trusts either side. Even if KESPA is listed as a non-profit, it doesn't mean they don't make money by advertising their products or anything else, just that they don't make direct money off certain portions of their televised entertainment. It's still advertising for them.
Also if you notice in the article they never mention how much people have, likely do to korean protection laws and the Non-Disclosure-Agreement they signed regarding their negotiations. So really there is no hard evidence here that isn't more than word of mouth.
On September 03 2010 02:15 LastPrime wrote: I love how some kids who just started playing SC2 and have no clue about SC:BW say stupidest ever. Blizzard/Gretech are being unreasonable - all this drama started because they basically wanted to remove brood war progaming to make space for starcraft 2. Of course that isn't happening - you can't just take down a "national sport" by force. It is totally understandable for me that Kespa, a nonprofit organization that has existed for the purpose of nurturing this culture of e-sports, is doing what they can to continue the existence of the said culture. Guess what will happen to starcraft e-sports iff Kespa is gone - it will be gone too! Whoa?! BTW let me clarify something yet again in these forums, tournament money doesn't mean much to the progamers. Winning tournaments gives progamers the PRESTIGE necessary to gain a better contract from their teams, which constitutes most of their earnings. Understand? So GSL is not a big deal. If there's GSL but no proleague/MSL/OSL, korean brood war esports is dead. Period.
Kespa: Non-profit organization?
Wherever there is money to be made in this world, there is a bunch of guys in suits likely making decisions and banking checks. If an organization doesn't have stockholders to split the profits, they have highly paid executives working and cashing in bonuses.
That they have employees, players, commentators, event organisers etc etc etc... is very commendable, but they are still in it for the money, and they are in this situation because they refuse to acknowledge that they should be paying for the IP rights.
And blizzard should have said from the beginning that they wanted IP right, OH WAIT Activision WASN'T IN THE PICTURE THEN.
Wrong. If there's anything in this entire thread that isn't debatable due to lack of knowledge, it's this: Blizzard approached Kespa quite a while ago to, indeed, protect their IP rights with a stern no and nothing more. All the rest is fallout from there. Blizzard's always asked Kespa to keep their rights in mind, it's only now it's gotten to the point where people are playing a cold war with the games.
If you are so well informed might telling us when exactly did blizzard approached them " quite a while ago " ? As far as i know i started watching pro SC at the middle 2007 and IP rights started geting thrown after SC2 was developed to a stage where beta was starting .
If you can findout when Kespa started charging ticket for live Starcraft events, it's around that time. Pretty sure it's way before 2007 or the Sc2 announcement.
Nope, Both of you are wrong, It was actually in 2007 that everythin started, around the time SCII was announced, but it is okay if you had missed, since it wasn't such a big deal, Blizzard weren;t threatening to remove ProLeague and such IIRC
2007 was when the talks for SC2 started. BW talks were pretty much at a stalemate because the Korean government in Blizzard vs Kespa over SC1 judged that Kespa should have the same considerations as an organisational body like the FIFA is for another certain sport and thus all decisions should go through them.
You can argue and say that they pretty much gave up on Starcraft, but it's a safe bet when you get the Government involved to resolve a dispute, there are no bridges or even pieces left over to be fixed. So they went with a competitor that was willing to work with them. GOM is certainly not pulling punches now that Kespa has lost network and sponsor support, but seeing the present history of these two bodies... it's not exactly surprising.
I'm not really sure where you're getting all this info from but most of this is more tinfoil hat material than what MaYuu said. If I'm wrong about it, please provide links citing government intervention.
According to Mike Morhaime (you can read his letter here), 2007 was the year they got "actively" involved in the Korean Starcraft e-sports scene. The announcement about SC2 took place a few months after the broadcasting scandal.
On September 03 2010 03:19 Murderotica wrote: The GSL conflict thing is the fucking stupidest most bullshit shit I have ever heard. Fuck.
I totally empathise with Gretech there. I mean, if Proleague was on, would you skip it to watch former pros and foreigners flail around in SC2?
However it is most definately bullshit, kespa ain't perfect but they're certainly better than this fucking actizardgretechgom orgy of crap...
But I don't understand, why aren't we allowed to watch what's best... If proleague is better than SC2, then we should be able to watch it and not have to stand up with the SC2 crap. I mean, look at tv schedules, tons of TV programs overlap at the same time and obviously, you'd only watch one of them but the other TV programs wouldn't be bitching about it and trying to take out the other guy. I'm just saying, the proleague conflicting GSL scheduling is pretty much crap.. The viewer is allowed to watch w/e they want and besides, even if they weren't overlapping, most of the koreans probably still wouldn't watch GSL.. After all, it is just a bunch of former pros and foreigners flailing around in sc2
BW talks were pretty much at a stalemate because the Korean government in Blizzard vs Kespa over SC1 judged that Kespa should have the same considerations as an organisational body like the FIFA is for another certain sport and thus all decisions should go through them.
As for the person asking my sources, mostly just browsing various sources. If you google Blizzard Vs Kespa you'll find various articles of various ages haven't found many articles that predate 2007. The main problem is that pre-2007, not many people would be arguing over the IP rights of Starcraft in english.
How reliable is it? Well it's the internet, make your own conclusions. However most of it makes sense. (the Korean government implication was taken from a gosugamer article and they were citing a TL contributor you could likely find it very easily)
Sounds more like Kespa won than a stalemate.
Before SC2 I'd guess they would have nothing to gain going after an organisation in another country, that had gotten very very good at hiding it's profits. The fact that they are listing themselves as non-profit should raise a few flags.
The fact that they are listing themselves as non-profit should raise a few flags.
A non-profit organization is an organization that does not distribute its surplus funds to owners or shareholders, but instead uses them to help pursue its goals.
I'm not going to claim I understand Kespa or the proleague business model. But if they maintain the sanction of the South Korean government, then gretech isn't likely to get what it wants.
On August 31 2010 23:53 Nesto wrote: what the hell...
Gretech... you think GSL would survive if you forcibly stop the proleague and force the disbanding of the proleague teams? imagine the outrage..
and for Kespa... simply fuck off... it just seems they only care about the money they make with SCBW and want to make sure, that they don't have any competition from GSL / SC2...
kespa is nonprofit. Kespa is probably saying "fuck you" to sc2 cause they have emotional issues against Blizzard.
People are still forgetting the last 'intellectual rights negociations' kespa got involved in. Remember when they demanded MBCGame and OnGameNet had to pay them money to broadcast proleague?
They're a bunch of fucking hypocrits denying any form of intellectual rights payment.
You could argue that Kespa is non-profit, that they dont earn anything off organizing proleague, and that if anyone should pay for proleague rights it's MBCGame and OGN, but Kespa has used its position as official proleague organizer to demand intellectual rights payments from MBCGame and OGN earlier, so they should step up to the plate now too.
They already said they would pay as longa s they don't have to promote SC2... Also...
A non-profit organization is an organization that does not distribute its surplus funds to owners or shareholders, but instead uses them to help pursue its goals.
On September 03 2010 02:15 LastPrime wrote: I love how some kids who just started playing SC2 and have no clue about SC:BW say stupidest ever. Blizzard/Gretech are being unreasonable - all this drama started because they basically wanted to remove brood war progaming to make space for starcraft 2. Of course that isn't happening - you can't just take down a "national sport" by force. It is totally understandable for me that Kespa, a nonprofit organization that has existed for the purpose of nurturing this culture of e-sports, is doing what they can to continue the existence of the said culture. Guess what will happen to starcraft e-sports iff Kespa is gone - it will be gone too! Whoa?! BTW let me clarify something yet again in these forums, tournament money doesn't mean much to the progamers. Winning tournaments gives progamers the PRESTIGE necessary to gain a better contract from their teams, which constitutes most of their earnings. Understand? So GSL is not a big deal. If there's GSL but no proleague/MSL/OSL, korean brood war esports is dead. Period.
Kespa: Non-profit organization?
Wherever there is money to be made in this world, there is a bunch of guys in suits likely making decisions and banking checks. If an organization doesn't have stockholders to split the profits, they have highly paid executives working and cashing in bonuses.
That they have employees, players, commentators, event organisers etc etc etc... is very commendable, but they are still in it for the money, and they are in this situation because they refuse to acknowledge that they should be paying for the IP rights.
And blizzard should have said from the beginning that they wanted IP right, OH WAIT Activision WASN'T IN THE PICTURE THEN.
Wrong. If there's anything in this entire thread that isn't debatable due to lack of knowledge, it's this: Blizzard approached Kespa quite a while ago to, indeed, protect their IP rights with a stern no and nothing more. All the rest is fallout from there. Blizzard's always asked Kespa to keep their rights in mind, it's only now it's gotten to the point where people are playing a cold war with the games.
If you are so well informed might telling us when exactly did blizzard approached them " quite a while ago " ? As far as i know i started watching pro SC at the middle 2007 and IP rights started geting thrown after SC2 was developed to a stage where beta was starting .
If you can findout when Kespa started charging ticket for live Starcraft events, it's around that time. Pretty sure it's way before 2007 or the Sc2 announcement.
... the only time they've charged for ticket was for the 1,07 patch final between grr and boxer which had the lowest attendance of any event. They've never charged since.
How's KeSPA a non-profit org. when they're a conglomerate of big businesses in this for the advertisement? Unless I understood something terribly wrong.
On September 06 2010 03:01 bearbuddy wrote: How's KeSPA a non-profit org. when they're a conglomerate of big businesses in this for the advertisement? Unless I understood something terribly wrong.
Yes you have understood something wrong. Non-Profit does not mean that an organization can not exchange their services for money. It means that they need to reinvest all their profit back into the company.
On September 06 2010 03:01 bearbuddy wrote: How's KeSPA a non-profit org. when they're a conglomerate of big businesses in this for the advertisement? Unless I understood something terribly wrong.
Yes you have understood something wrong. Non-Profit does not mean that an organization can not exchange their services for money. It means that they need to reinvest all their profit back into the company.
Ah. It just seems so strange to me that a self-serving entity would be considered non-profit and be exempt from laws simply because they allocate their resources elsewhere.
On September 06 2010 03:01 bearbuddy wrote: How's KeSPA a non-profit org. when they're a conglomerate of big businesses in this for the advertisement? Unless I understood something terribly wrong.
Yes you have understood something wrong. Non-Profit does not mean that an organization can not exchange their services for money. It means that they need to reinvest all their profit back into the company.
Ah. It just seems so strange to me that a self-serving entity would be considered non-profit and be exempt from laws simply because they allocate their resources elsewhere.
Sir, you should read this :
"A non-profit organization (abbreviated as NPO, also known as a not-for-profit organization[1]) is an organization that does not distribute its surplus funds to owners or shareholders, but instead uses them to help pursue its goals.[2] Examples of NPOs include charities (i.e. charitable organizations), trade unions, and public arts organizations. Most governments and government agencies meet this definition, but in most countries they are considered a separate type of organization and not counted as NPOs. They are in most countries exempt from income and property taxation."
Source : wikipedia
That means they use all profit for the development of Proleague, which is just not a bad cause. Obviously the money they were willing to pay Blizzard for "intellectual rights" comes from this profit.
EPT
