EPT[Korean Column] Savior, where Bonjwa Starts & Ends - Page 2
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Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
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Mykill
Canada3402 Posts
pics are broken? (this will turn into a bisu/jaedong/flash bonjwa thread soon) | ||
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Mortician
Bulgaria2332 Posts
GosI[Flying] IS! | ||
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~chut~
France1317 Posts
QibingZero , your arguments are interesting, i think it shows why none of JD, Flash and Bisu is called bonjwa, they reached their prime around the same time and there's no clear favourite between them, it really depends on the day to day form. Savior was a favourite against anyone, anytime, on any kind of maps, the article shows that very well. That's the main difference imo. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On November 07 2009 19:25 QibingZero wrote: Better than the rest of your race? Wins on unfavorable maps? These even fit today's dominant players like Jaedong, Flash, and Bisu. All have been unquestionably the top of their race, and have found ways to reverse the trend on various maps (Jaedong and Flash on Katrina, for example). Jaedong is probably the best example here, since it's taken other zergs ages to finally catch up to where he was at, and a lot of that has to do with zergs having maps in their favor now. You probably weren't around back then otherwise you wouldn't say this. The maps back then were much worse in balance than most of the current maps. The biggest exceptions that I can think of would be Katrina (which admittedly Flash did nicely on), Battle Royal (PL only, few people played races other than Z there), Geometry (again, PL only, almost no non-Terrans played there), and Demon's Forest (was banned for the leagues). Savior had to overcome Zerg graveyard after Zerg graveyard, which is what impressed everybody. Overall dominance? Savior was at about 69% for his span of 4 starleague wins and 2 MSL silvers. Jaedong was also at 69% from EVER2007 to Bacchus 2009 (and surprisingly higher if you were to end it at Batoo instead). That's also 4 starleague wins in almost exactly the same amount of time. He also won GOM Classic 1, WCG Korea, GOM's special match vs Bisu, and had an MSL silver. Flash is right at 70% from Bacchus to GOM Classic 3, and over 70% if you include his current streak. Of course, this only includes one starleague win and some GOM league ownage. Bisu was actually a bit lower at 65% for his span of 3 Starleague wins, though his were over a slightly longer period of time (a little over 2 years, while the others are all a little under 2 years). He also won GOM Classic 2 during this time and had an MSL silver. Interesting notes: - Savior played around half the matches the others did in the same amount of time - Flash and Jaedong destroyed Proleague (and really still are) - Bisu's lower win % has a lot to do with the fact he started off shaky in proleague, even though he fared very well in individual leagues With today's emphasis on PL and the featuring of Winner's League (in which JD went 22-5 and other top players had similar records), and also the fact that OSL and MSL start with rounds of 36 and 32 respectively, win percentages (and subsequently ELO) don't mean as much as they used to. When Boxer played, every win he achieved was during the Ro16 or better in a tournament. He achieved such dominance by making the medals podium at almost every single tournament. More than half of all tournaments were his. Compared to Bisu, Flash and JD, Savior did an okay job qualifying for leagues (especially since the standard was slightly higher, due to tournaments being smaller), and he made the finals of a Starleague in literally every season. And one last "interesting note:" Savior's win percentage continued to increase over his career. JD's has actually dipped lately and no one would seriously consider Flash or Bisu as a bonjwa (they need more championships). In the 12 months before his loss to Bisu in MSL, Savior was winning 74% of his games. Not only that, but Savior made ZvT look completely imbalanced, as he won 69% of his ZvT matches during the two year period prior to his MSL loss to Bisu. And he did this in an era when Terran was strong, with Oov achieving better than 80% TvZ wins and NaDa, Midas and Boxer all being 70% winners and other strong players like Hwasin and Casy and Xellos all looking sharp vs Zerg. Winning multiple game matches? Savior was 9-2 in bo5 matches during the period of dominance mentioned above. Jaedong was 13-2, and has beaten Bisu so I'm really not sure what the poster is talking about (I counted Savior's win vs Nada in Superfight, too). Maybe he means only bo5s that took place in the MSL or OSL, because Jaedong also won a bo3 they played in the MSL. Bisu was 13-3 (1 loss to Jaedong, 1 loss to Flash). Flash was 9-3 (2 of those losses to Jaedong). These are ridiculous numbers when you consider that they're happening at very much the same time as each other. Completely irrelevant. The point isn't that you played a BoX, it's who you played. Savior gets props for crushing every other contender, every player who people thought should be the next big thing. JD, Flash and Bisu all have such stellar BoX records, [i]but could they do it if they were all forced to face each other[i] again and again to fight for only two crowns when the Starleagues have a max of 24 players? The answer is obviously no. One of them would have to come out on top. JD does have an edge in record over Flash, but not over Bisu (who he is even with). And Flash has an edge over Bisu. It's okay for a bonjwa to have a rival, but two rivals? And that's not even counting Stork or Fantasy or any of the up and comers like Calm, who's looking every bit like he's going to be the next big thing right now. Right now the climate of progaming is different. Right now we have two players over 2300 in ELO and a whole bunch of players close to 2300 (3 in the high 2200's). In the old days this would not have been possible. If there would have been two players over 2300, then everyone else would be down in the dumps. The fact that so many more games are played these days by so many more people means that using ELO as a comparison between current top players and former top players fails. But ELO just draws its numbers based on stats, and players with higher win percentages are statistically more likely to go on long streaks, thus statistically more likely to receive major ELO boosts. (Critics of this argument may point out that newbies stealing a game from JD or Flash will do massive damage to the ELO ratings of those players, but the fact is that today's "A-level" gamer has a much higher ELO than the "A-level" gamers of 3 years ago, so JD or Flash can then "repair" their ELO rating fairly easily with wins over A-level gamers. In the past, bonjwas were basically the players who broke 2300 in ELO (Boxer and NaDa now have this since the ratings have been adjusted to account for more old tournaments that previously were not in the TLPD, such as Game-Q). But by definition, you cannot have two bonjwas at the same time anymore. And just when it appears that JD is the "most sure candidate" for the title, he falls behind both Flash and Bisu, both of his rivals, in ELO. This isn't a situation we have had before. We likely won't see a real "bonjwa" again. So yeah, I don't think these are the factors that made savior bonjwa. Sure, it's part stats, but it's also feeling. Feeling in the same way star sense is feeling. When Savior played, you knew he was going to somehow find victory, regardless of what his opponent was doing at the time. Despite being one of the best and closest games of all time, it somehow wasn't that surprising when Savior beat Iris during Shinhan 3. That was what he did - he found victory no matter where it was hiding. This I mostly agree with, but my point is that the meaning of the stats has changed due to changes in how the leagues are structured. It's that type of feeling where a player knows the game so well you sense as if he'd be no better if he were actually maphacking. Savior had it, and we've seen glimpses of that only a few times since (for me, a huge one was Jaedong's comeback vs fantasy during Batoo). Yes. Having said that, the stats I listed above are pretty crazy, and do merit discussion if we're going to go along the path this poster would suggest. Which is what I'm doing. | ||
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
The pics are broken for me... sAviOr was a great Zerg, saying fuck you to map statistics and owning everyone on the scene until Bisu dethroned him. + Show Spoiler + but I'm not really convinced with his style of play, take his game against Pusan a while ago, he just camped 4 bases while denying Pusan's third (why was Pusan insisting on getting the 11 base anyway?). I didn't get the feel that I was watching sAviOr, I felt that I was watching Flash turtle away to victory. I don't know if that's the play style that led him to defy map statistics, I hope it's not. | ||
520
United States2822 Posts
1) If someone else can make a convincing argument why another player of the same era should be a bonjwa, then none of the players in question are. | ||
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SkylineSC
United States564 Posts
but then again, bisu hasn't been too hot either. failing in starleagues & such. but if he can obtain the dominance savior had with protoss when no other P can do the same, and take down big names zergs like JD, effort, calm etc. then he can be there. but with that in mind, one can see just how hard it is for bisu to do that, and thats pretty much what savior did from my understanding. | ||
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ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
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QibingZero
2611 Posts
On November 07 2009 20:07 darktreb wrote: I love how you did an analysis of "multiple game matches" and didn't include BO3's The analysis was nice but come on - BO3 is part of the deal here If Bo3s were so important, why did the poster claim Jaedong had never beaten Bisu in a 'multiple game match'? Jaedong beat him 2-0 during Arena MSL. On November 07 2009 23:18 Mortality wrote: You probably weren't around back then otherwise you wouldn't say this. The maps back then were much worse in balance than most of the current maps. The biggest exceptions that I can think of would be Katrina (which admittedly Flash did nicely on), Battle Royal (PL only, few people played races other than Z there), Geometry (again, PL only, almost no non-Terrans played there), and Demon's Forest (was banned for the leagues). Savior had to overcome Zerg graveyard after Zerg graveyard, which is what impressed everybody. Naturally, map balance has increased over time, but you overstate a couple things here. First, Terran were dominating both strategically and player-wise at the time. There were many good Terran players, and they were performing well where they should have been. The maps weren't favorable to Zerg, but it was not as bad as it's made out to be. There just weren't Zerg players who were showing consistent results - period. Many of them could beat Protoss players (seriously, Nal_ra's PvZ at the time was as impressive as anything else), but had serious issues with the strong Terran players. Second, every bonjwa did not have to face this kind of adversity, anyway. Were Boxer and NaDa both not still playing well when oov rolled onto the scene? Terran even had Xellos and Midas playing well at that same time, too! The difference was that at their peaks, the bonjwas all were clearly the best of their race and played well on maps regardless of balance (not that they had to reverse some kind of trend against their race - that much is Zerg history, not bonjwa history). With today's emphasis on PL and the featuring of Winner's League (in which JD went 22-5 and other top players had similar records), and also the fact that OSL and MSL start with rounds of 36 and 32 respectively, win percentages (and subsequently ELO) don't mean as much as they used to. When Boxer played, every win he achieved was during the Ro16 or better in a tournament. He achieved such dominance by making the medals podium at almost every single tournament. More than half of all tournaments were his. Compared to Bisu, Flash and JD, Savior did an okay job qualifying for leagues (especially since the standard was slightly higher, due to tournaments being smaller), and he made the finals of a Starleague in literally every season. And one last "interesting note:" Savior's win percentage continued to increase over his career. JD's has actually dipped lately and no one would seriously consider Flash or Bisu as a bonjwa (they need more championships). In the 12 months before his loss to Bisu in MSL, Savior was winning 74% of his games. Not only that, but Savior made ZvT look completely imbalanced, as he won 69% of his ZvT matches during the two year period prior to his MSL loss to Bisu. And he did this in an era when Terran was strong, with Oov achieving better than 80% TvZ wins and NaDa, Midas and Boxer all being 70% winners and other strong players like Hwasin and Casy and Xellos all looking sharp vs Zerg. I don't see how win percentage means any less than before, especially when over double the amount of games are being played and practicing for each is that much harder. Winner's League only makes that stronger, imo. If you perform well with less time to prepare, isn't that a better show of skill? I also don't see how Jaedong's win percentage has slipped any - what, maybe 1% less in past year than in the year before that? Besides, picking a year window and saying that Savior's win percentage continued to increase is a little silly, especially considering what happened to him after that window was over. On the other hand, both Jaedong and Flash aren't showing any signs of going away yet... Completely irrelevant. The point isn't that you played a BoX, it's who you played. Savior gets props for crushing every other contender, every player who people thought should be the next big thing. JD, Flash and Bisu all have such stellar BoX records, [i]but could they do it if they were all forced to face each other[i] again and again to fight for only two crowns when the Starleagues have a max of 24 players? The answer is obviously no. One of them would have to come out on top. JD does have an edge in record over Flash, but not over Bisu (who he is even with). And Flash has an edge over Bisu. It's okay for a bonjwa to have a rival, but two rivals? And that's not even counting Stork or Fantasy or any of the up and comers like Calm, who's looking every bit like he's going to be the next big thing right now. It's not as if Savior only played oov and Nada in bo5s during this time, haha. There were still a good variety of players he had to face, and he was still beating up on relative unknowns during qualifiers like everyone else has to. It's also not as if he didn't lose. He lost to a definite 'contender' and a 'player who people thought should be the next big thing' in Chojja. But we don't argue Savior wasn't bonjwa just because he was 1-2 in bo5s against Chojja do we? Another serious problem with this argument is that it's one Boxer could make against Savior himself. Compared to Boxer in 2000-2001, Savior played against a wide variety of players who were not always his chief rivals. A bunch of ELO stuff There's a reason I didn't mention ELO even once. There are all sorts of issues you start getting into when talking about it... We likely won't see a real "bonjwa" again. Not if we're incredibly strict about defining one, and care more about nostalgia than anything. We can list a thousand reasons why we think Savior was bonjwa while newer heroes are not, but the only one with any merit is that no one else challenged Savior's dominance and really shut him down for almost 2 years. Meanwhile, Flash/Jaedong/Bisu can be argued to have the same dominant periods, but together have created a rivalry amongst themselves that defers popular opinion away from the support of any singular one. As bonjwa is just a perception of dominance, it's nearly impossible for even Jaedong to gain strong bonjwa support while Flash and Bisu are still strong players who win tournaments (and have huge fanbases backing them). | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8556 Posts
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sky_slasher
United States328 Posts
On November 07 2009 18:28 quiong wrote: That's not really the point though. It's an article written to define bonjwa as a set of criteria (assessments) that only savior meets. One could easily define bonjwa in a different manner. Jaedong could probably pass assessment 1, 4, and 5, but not 2 and 3. 3 is debatable on whether the assessment can be met simply by defeating strong terran or if the specific trio of boxer, nada, oov must be defeated. Author's intent is kinda murky here. He even admits "But it's hard to meet the kind of circumstances that Savior was in." Jaedong could win the next 10 OSLs, but unless he invents a time machine, he cannot become bonjwa by this author's standard. Similarly, if someone's definition of bonjwa states that you MUST have a golden mouse, then savior would not be one by definition. The arguments over bonjwa are not so much about the players, but about the criterion that ought to be used. I think the author was referring to the legends of the previous time not necessarily Boxer/Nada/Oov trio specifically. Plus the dominant progamers of the race that your race is weak against. | ||
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samachking
Bahrain4949 Posts
Edit: This is the main thing I hate about the bonjwa discussions, its mainly subjective confirmation bias with a lot of nitpicking for each person presented, and the main arguements presented against Jaedong is usually something only one Bonjwa did, well one thing is for sure, imo JD accomplished more and was more successful than Boxer in nearly all areas for this short period of time, so why is Boxer considered a Bonjwa and JD not, Boxer sure did have a larger effect on the game, but Bonjwa measures dominance and not influence. | ||
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dukethegold
Canada5645 Posts
I am not really clear on that on. Confirm? | ||
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SuperArc
Austria7781 Posts
On November 08 2009 01:33 dukethegold wrote: Well, Bisu v.s. Savior MSL final was before my time. I got around the scene after Bisu already lost to Mind in the MSL final. However, one thing that I noticed is that some of the old posts already addressed Bisu as a bonjwa. Seemed to me that prior to Bisu v.s. Mind and Bisu dropped out of that OSL after attaining his third MSL, Bisu was being seriously considered as a bonjwa by some of the community back then. I am not really clear on that on. Confirm? Of course he was considered bonjwa candidate , but his reign lasted way too short to be one. | ||
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yhnmk
Canada630 Posts
On November 08 2009 01:25 samachking wrote: Boxer won a slew of leagues all at once. Savior did. Iloveoov/Nada didn't really fit that pattern, but the effect they had on the game and the awe factor in playing them simply outways what it is to play Jaedong. For ex: On the pr jaedong is often at #1- probably the most so far out of everyone- but if the pr had existed throughout the reigns of the bonjwas, they would of been number 1 every single month, and every single time it wouldnt of been even remotely close. There was a MASSIVE gap between them and the rest. There isn't a massive gap between Jaedong, Bisu, Flash, Calm, etc.Edit: This is the main thing I hate about the bonjwa discussions, its mainly subjective confirmation bias with a lot of nitpicking for each person presented, and the main arguements presented against Jaedong is usually something only one Bonjwa did, well one thing is for sure, imo JD accomplished more and was more successful than Boxer in nearly all areas for this short period of time, so why is Boxer considered a Bonjwa and JD not, Boxer sure did have a larger effect on the game, but Bonjwa measures dominance and not influence. Period. | ||
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samachking
Bahrain4949 Posts
On November 08 2009 01:37 yhnmk wrote: Savior I think, is my favorite bonjwa- and the most compelling. Boxer as a man probably has more to offer, considering he gave his own money at times in order to keep a league running, so you have to respect that, but in terms of play and storylines, the general feel, I think Savior captured what it "is" to be starcraft better than anyone else. Boxer won a slew of leagues all at once. Savior did. Iloveoov/Nada didn't really fit that pattern, but the effect they had on the game and the awe factor in playing them simply outways what it is to play Jaedong. For ex: On the pr jaedong is often at #1- probably the most so far out of everyone- but if the pr had existed throughout the reigns of the bonjwas, they would of been number 1 every single month, and every single time it wouldnt of been even remotely close. There was a MASSIVE gap between them and the rest. There isn't a massive gap between Jaedong, Bisu, Flash, Calm, etc. Period. Bisu,Flash,Calm all won 1 league in JD's reign and none of them even faced him in the finals This is like saying July didnt exist in Oov's reign, Garimto/Reach/Yellow with boxer, and Chojja with Nada/Savior and even Nada/Ra with Savior. They all had rivals of similar level, but one of them kept winning and thats why they are bonjwas today, JD only lost 2 bo5s since the start of EVER OSL and those were to ForGG and Calm, neither who are candidates against bonjwa for him, personally I believe if the tri bo3 exit in the 6 Dragon era didnt happen to JD we would be chanting Bonjwa at jaedong, but thats my opinion. | ||
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yhnmk
Canada630 Posts
On November 08 2009 01:52 samachking wrote: There is no "JD's reign" thats my point. He won a whole hell of a lot, and won a whole hell of a lot of leagues, but he was never consistently the best. The closest the Bonjwa's had was someone who could take them to their level (midas vs savior for ex), they never had someone who was actually better than them, even if they managed to squeek out a victory [july vs oov]. Jaedong HASNT been the best player in the world throughout his so called reign, hes lost finals, dropped out in groups, dropped out in b03's, etc. He's been outshone even if temporarily, by many players. There was never any question that Midas' was Saviors biggest rival towards the latter half of his reign, but there was also never ANY question that savior was the best player in the world, even if he didn't win a starleague or even qualify for one. Jaedongs a first amongst equals, hes "just a man", however talented.Bisu,Flash,Calm all won 1 league in JD's reign and none of them even faced him in the finals This is like saying July didnt exist in Oov's reign, Garimto/Reach/Yellow with boxer, and Chojja with Nada/Savior and even Nada/Ra with Savior. They all had rivals of similar level, but one of them kept winning and thats why they are bonjwas today, JD only lost 2 bo5s since the start of EVER OSL and those were to ForGG and Calm, neither who are candidates against bonjwa for him, personally I believe if the tri bo3 exit in the 6 Dragon era didnt happen to JD we would be chanting Bonjwa at jaedong, but thats my opinion. | ||
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dranjam
Poland198 Posts
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