[Korean Column] Savior, where Bonjwa Starts & Ends - Page 6

On November 10 2009 00:38 Avidkeystamper wrote:
"Just because we're only talking about a few years and not a cpl thousand years doesnt change the argument."
Yes it does, that would mean aristotle would have access to modern math too.

On November 10 2009 00:36 damenmofa wrote:

And where is the difference in starcraft? JD had access to saviors games, but not vice versa. Just because we're only talking about a few years and not a cpl thousand years doesnt change the argument. Where on earth is the difference in saying "I think Jaedong is more impressive because he's better at Starcraft, fairly logical." to saying "I think a 10th grader is more impressive because he's better at math, fairly logical.". Agreeing with the first statement while denying the second is a logical contradiction man.

On November 10 2009 00:46 samachking wrote:


Because Jaedong isnt a friggin 10th grader, he is a Fields Medalist of the level of Paul Erdos, dont use ridiculously bad strawman arguments with huge loopholes

On November 10 2009 00:52 damenmofa wrote:

ok then replace 10th grader with Paul Erdos or the last nobel prize winner for mathematics, I dont care. Ever heard of exaggerating in an argument to make the point clearer? Do you think Paul Erdos is more impressive than aristoteles? lulz

On November 10 2009 00:13 damenmofa wrote:
yeah I dont really understand whats the point your trying to make though. Just to clarify, imo it is a big part of his legacy that he won in such a close fashion so many times. It is more impressing, enjoyable and memorable to me if someone wins in a nailbiter final set than 3-1s his finals opponent with relative ease.

On November 10 2009 00:03 Plexa wrote:
People have no idea about saviors reign man =/ Jaedong probably had a better win ratio over the past two OSLs than Savior ever did. I mean, when was the last time Jaedong went to the 5th game in a bo5? Savior was taken there many many times.

On November 10 2009 01:17 samachking wrote:


lulz?
Paul Erdos is one of the most accomplished mathematicians of all time and modern mathematics and the most prolific after Euler, yes I do think he is more skilled than Aristotle in mathematics which was the point you made. Also your argument with the 10th grader implies that JD is any other progamer zerg with arsenal of built up knowledge, this is a terrible arguement, because even with the arsenal of knowledge that he has he is still a lot more skillful than the norm progamer, thats why he is the best right now, your arguement implies that savior was way ahead of his time with no knowledge whileas JD is another guy that just followed the knowledge and just got a head start, this is true somewhat, but you are ignoring his relative skill level compared to the pack of progamers. Results speak for themselves, JD's stats mirror that of Savior in his prime and his accomplishments do that too,hell JD is so ahead of his pack that his mirror is the greatest mu in SC of all time, both have 4 medals and are very skilled players. Downgrading Jaedong with a strawman like that is meaningless considering Savior has current knowledge and he is doing nothing, why? He doesnt practice and his mentality is dead. And whether Jaedong will surpass him as he is already his equal or whether JD will become the greatest progamer of all time(matter of skill), only time will tell.

On November 10 2009 01:32 damenmofa wrote:

Umm no? I explicitly stated that skilled =| impressive. I think that Erdos is more skilled as well, I just think that aristoteles is way more impressive.

On November 10 2009 02:06 jeddus wrote:
It was just a different time.

On November 10 2009 22:15 Kyo Yuy wrote:
To anyone who is still arguing that Jaedong currently is a bonjwa...

+ Show Spoiler +

As for whether or not his track record makes him a bonjwa, the problem is that he did not have a long enough period of time where he was SO MUCH BETTER than everyone else. The same issue is applicable to Bisu. While Jaedong has 3 OSLs and Bisu has 3 MSLs, neither of them completely dominated the scene for one consecutive period of time. Jaedong was struggling in the latter half of 2008 and Bisu really only dominated for part of 2007.

And as I believe Plexa pointed out, it was not just Savior being better than everyone else, it was his biggest opponents of the time not giving him enough run for his money. Midas choked multiple times against Savior, and if Midas had not lost to Savior in the ro8 of Shinhan 3, we might be singing a completely different tune.

Likewise if Savior had lost to Iris in the semifinals (which was REALLY close), we might be saying different things now.

But any way, the biggest issue is what the general consensus of the Korean fanbase is. As has been stated in the past - if you have to argue that someone is a bonjwa, then that player is not a bonjwa.

On November 10 2009 23:44 QibingZero wrote:


You're confusing yourself if you think Jaedong has ever truly been struggling since he won EVER 2007. This is what I'm talking about when I say people are so reactionary about players 'slumping' these days. If Flash or Jaedong lose a single freaking game everyone jumps all over them. This was a much rarer occurrence in the past, like when people knew that no matter how many losses Nada was taking, he would very much be in the next starleague playing well every time. Hell, few people even chided Bisu for his lackluster Proleague performance in Shinhan 07 and 08.

I mean, really. Have you watched Jaedong's recent games? Can you actually make an educated assessment of his skill level and why you think he's struggling? Details are what matter, not 'lololol Jaedong lost a game in Proleague, he's so bad'.

On November 11 2009 01:03 Kyo Yuy wrote:

People didn't say Nada was a bonjwa in 2006 IIRC. Not to mention he wasn't doing too hot in the MSL from 2006-2007.

I'm confusing myself? Jaedong didn't qualify for two consecutive OSLs following Bacchus 08, and then he was knocked out of ClubDay MSL by Free, as well as GOMTV S2 by Tempest.

My argument isn't that Jaedong is bad. Jaedong is arguably the best player in the scene right now and one of the most skillful players on the scene. My argument is that he simply has not had a long enough period of unquestionable dominance to be called a bonjwa.

When did I say Jaedong was slumping? I simply said he wasn't bonjwa material.

He's 4-4 in his last 8 ZvZs. A 50% win ratio in his supposed best matchup is not what I call a bonjwa.

And yes, I have watched Jaedong's recent games. He lost matches to A level zergs despite using the exact same build order. He lost to Calm in a ZvZ bo5 in the Avalon MSL.

Jaedong has been struggling, not in the sense of "omg he's a b team scrub" struggling, but in the sense of "He doesn't dominate the scene enough to be called a bonjwa" sense of struggling. Yes, he won the Golden Mouse, but so did JulyZerg. Yes, he's clearly the best player in the scene right now, but players such as Xellos, Reach, and JulyZerg have all been best players at some point but they are not called bonjwas.

The general consensus is that it takes more than just raw skill to be considered a bonjwa. If you disagree with that, that's fine, but I am saying that people don't consider Jaedong a bonjwa because of many factors, most notably the extremely high level of competition in Korea right now.

Is it Jaedong's fault everyone is so good right now? No, but Jaedong is active in a time where everyone is extremely good, and as a result it is difficult for ANYONE to be called a bonjwa right now.