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On November 08 2009 04:58 samachking wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2009 04:43 kvilx wrote:If  Jaedong had won OSL, MSL and Proleague last season, he would set some good fundaments for new Bonjwa reign. Without this - sorry, he is just the best player at the moment. lol you do realize only one player won OSL/MSL at once, let alone a 5 round PL with it with a completely shitty back bone team line, if he actually did what you said,Jaedong wouldnt only be bonjwa, he would be the greatest progamer of all time without any denial.
Ironically, as this thread points out, SKT-1 was more dependent on Bisu last season than OZ was dependent on JD, as ironic as that may be.
And also, the greatest achievement in the history of e-sports would be NaDa's Gold Grand Slam, winning three starleagues in "the same season" (at the time there was a third league, which later went bankrupt, but unlike GOM it was KeSPA sanctioned). Note that I put "same season" in quotes because back then gaming wasn't organized quite like it is today. Those three tournaments were kind of staggered a bit, but don't think for a second that makes it less of an accomplishment.
No one will ever surpass NaDa as the greatest player in this game. 10 OSL/MSL finals appearances, 6 of which were first place finishes, and numerous other prestigious achievements.
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this confirms my signature
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Just a matter of feeling.
Jaedong is pretty good, but Savior -at that time- was God, and the last bonjwa so far.
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i dont get how people keep bringing up bisu for the bonjwa discussion, he isnt even close. savior is the last and likely stay that way. with bisu, you cant even put him in a bo3 against a mediocre zerg without getting curbstomped. same thing with jaedong, he might be in a minislump and lose some bo3 or qualification round to the likes of backho.
when i think of savior, i think of his bo5 against oov on ride of valkyries, where oov bunker rushes and savior proceeds to mine out that back entrance mineral, surround the bunker with lings while saving his hatchery in the reds.
savior was a god.
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On November 09 2009 03:28 piratebay wrote:
i dont get how people keep bringing up bisu for the bonjwa discussion, he isnt even close. savior is the last and likely stay that way. with bisu, you cant even put him in a bo3 against a mediocre zerg without getting curbstomped. same thing with jaedong, he might be in a minislump and lose some bo3 or qualification round to the likes of backho.
when i think of savior, i think of his bo5 against oov on ride of valkyries, where oov bunker rushes and savior proceeds to mine out that back entrance mineral, surround the bunker with lings while saving his hatchery in the reds.
savior was a god.
I can accept Jaedong nor Bisu will be called bonjwa, but it's more that they have competition to prevent them from dominating, not dropping random Bo3s to scrubs. Because Savior did too, but everyone overlooks it, and both Bisu and Jaedong have done just as jaw-dropping plays.
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Also, when savior did lose, the masses did not cry "slump!". I think it was more a thing of the times, though. Nowadays, every single time Jaedong or Flash lose a game or two it's a slump, even though they've carried consistent near-70% win rates for a couple years now.
On November 09 2009 03:28 piratebay wrote:
i dont get how people keep bringing up bisu for the bonjwa discussion, he isnt even close.
It was more that he was assumed to take the role from Savior after their fateful encounter and his subsequent hot streak. Of course, he's been behind Jaedong and even Flash for a while now...
On November 08 2009 11:21 nayumi wrote:
It's amazing how once the word "bonjwa" is mentioned, it soon turns into a "bisu or jaedong for bonjwa" debate. Just amazing.
You'll note the original translated thread mentions Jaedong and Bisu in it, presumably under the argument that it's hard to be a bonjwa unless you're lucky enough to face your rivals often.
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this is why movie is on the path of bonjwa-dom 
- surprised everyone by ahead in vs jaedong 1v1s and almost eliminating him from the previous msl
- came at the dark age of protoss
- overcame the zerg (instead of the terran) hes been owning zerg players left and right, even when he loses (calm)
4 and 5 are yet to come
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On November 09 2009 03:33 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2009 03:28 piratebay wrote:
i dont get how people keep bringing up bisu for the bonjwa discussion, he isnt even close. savior is the last and likely stay that way. with bisu, you cant even put him in a bo3 against a mediocre zerg without getting curbstomped. same thing with jaedong, he might be in a minislump and lose some bo3 or qualification round to the likes of backho.
when i think of savior, i think of his bo5 against oov on ride of valkyries, where oov bunker rushes and savior proceeds to mine out that back entrance mineral, surround the bunker with lings while saving his hatchery in the reds.
savior was a god. I can accept Jaedong nor Bisu will be called bonjwa, but it's more that they have competition to prevent them from dominating, not dropping random Bo3s to scrubs. Because Savior did too, but everyone overlooks it, and both Bisu and Jaedong have done just as jaw-dropping plays.
savior didn't drop televised bo3s to scrubs. sure he may have lost in a qualifier, but nobody ever saw that so its basically irrelevant. have you even watched savior in his prime? his jaw-dropping epicness was, for his time, far more impressing than anything JD or bisu have done (cept bisu killing savior 3-0 in MSL finals). Seriously, the most jaw-dropping and epic thing that bisu has done is winning against Savior the bonjwa in a clean sweep. I guess that says alot about the level of saviors epicness at that time.
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On November 09 2009 23:29 damenmofa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2009 03:33 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 09 2009 03:28 piratebay wrote:
i dont get how people keep bringing up bisu for the bonjwa discussion, he isnt even close. savior is the last and likely stay that way. with bisu, you cant even put him in a bo3 against a mediocre zerg without getting curbstomped. same thing with jaedong, he might be in a minislump and lose some bo3 or qualification round to the likes of backho.
when i think of savior, i think of his bo5 against oov on ride of valkyries, where oov bunker rushes and savior proceeds to mine out that back entrance mineral, surround the bunker with lings while saving his hatchery in the reds.
savior was a god. I can accept Jaedong nor Bisu will be called bonjwa, but it's more that they have competition to prevent them from dominating, not dropping random Bo3s to scrubs. Because Savior did too, but everyone overlooks it, and both Bisu and Jaedong have done just as jaw-dropping plays. savior didn't drop televised bo3s to scrubs. sure he may have lost in a qualifier, but nobody ever saw that so its basically irrelevant. have you even watched savior in his prime? his jaw-dropping epicness was, for his time, far more impressing than anything JD or bisu have done (cept bisu killing savior 3-0 in MSL finals). Seriously, the most jaw-dropping and epic thing that bisu has done is winning against Savior the bonjwa in a clean sweep. I guess that says alot about the level of saviors epicness at that time.
"More impressive" is completely subjective. And why is losing in qualifiers basically irrelevant?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
How soon people forget how close Savior was to being eliminated from pringles. If Midas hadn't choked history would have been different.
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On November 09 2009 23:46 Plexa wrote:
How soon people forget how close Savior was to being eliminated from pringles. If Midas hadn't choked history would have been different.
so what? in fact it is a big part of his legacy. he came close to elimination several times (game 5 vs iris he was way closer imo) but he ALWAYS managed to clutch it out.
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On November 09 2009 23:32 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2009 23:29 damenmofa wrote:On November 09 2009 03:33 Avidkeystamper wrote:On November 09 2009 03:28 piratebay wrote:
i dont get how people keep bringing up bisu for the bonjwa discussion, he isnt even close. savior is the last and likely stay that way. with bisu, you cant even put him in a bo3 against a mediocre zerg without getting curbstomped. same thing with jaedong, he might be in a minislump and lose some bo3 or qualification round to the likes of backho.
when i think of savior, i think of his bo5 against oov on ride of valkyries, where oov bunker rushes and savior proceeds to mine out that back entrance mineral, surround the bunker with lings while saving his hatchery in the reds.
savior was a god. I can accept Jaedong nor Bisu will be called bonjwa, but it's more that they have competition to prevent them from dominating, not dropping random Bo3s to scrubs. Because Savior did too, but everyone overlooks it, and both Bisu and Jaedong have done just as jaw-dropping plays. savior didn't drop televised bo3s to scrubs. sure he may have lost in a qualifier, but nobody ever saw that so its basically irrelevant. have you even watched savior in his prime? his jaw-dropping epicness was, for his time, far more impressing than anything JD or bisu have done (cept bisu killing savior 3-0 in MSL finals). Seriously, the most jaw-dropping and epic thing that bisu has done is winning against Savior the bonjwa in a clean sweep. I guess that says alot about the level of saviors epicness at that time. "More impressive" is completely subjective. And why is losing in qualifiers basically irrelevant?
yes it is, but seeing that many obviously feel the same, it becomes intersubjective. if his performance wasn't more impressive on an intersubjective basis than JD or Bisus, how come he is widely considered as a bonjwa while bisu and JD are not? How come he was referred to as a "god" by the korean commentators while bisu and JD are not? How come his dominance created a new term for a dominant progamer, while bisus and JDs have not? Even if you don't like savior, you gotta admit that on an intersubjective basis, he had the most impressing rule of SC ever.
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A lot of that has to do with his skill, but a lot of that is also nostalgia. He is bonjwa and god (Jaedong has been referred as such before, see his finals v. Fantasy) because he didn't have someone at his level during his reign. But that has no bearing on whether he is more impressive than the trifecta of today. His dominance created a new term for the same reason, he stood above the rest, but again, this has no bearing comparing to contemporary players.
Uh, I have no idea why losing Bo3s in qualifiers dont count. I know it's different, but there's no good argument for disregarding them.
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I'm going to throw some wild speculation out there, because someone mentioned the idea of a Protoss bonjwa.
Many have already established that Bisu simply hasn't had enough titles or a long enough consecutive period of dominance to truly be considered a bonjwa.
But in my very humble opinion, if Stork ever decided to practice hardcore and pick up his game, he definitely has the potential of becoming a Protoss bonjwa. He was even pegged by Boxer himself to be the next big thing.
While Stork lacks the flair of Bisu's harassment oriented style, Stork is known for extremely stellar management when he plays seriously.
TLPD states that he is 7-7 against Jaedong. Bisu by comparison is 6-7. Stork is also 9-9 against Bisu and 8-4 against Flash. His record clearly shows that he can go toe to toe with the best of the best.
However, this is all speculation as stated. But I think Stork has a lot of potential.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 09 2009 23:50 damenmofa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2009 23:46 Plexa wrote:
How soon people forget how close Savior was to being eliminated from pringles. If Midas hadn't choked history would have been different. so what? in fact it is a big part of his legacy. he came close to elimination several times (game 5 vs iris he was way closer imo) but he ALWAYS managed to clutch it out. People have no idea about saviors reign man =/ Jaedong probably had a better win ratio over the past two OSLs than Savior ever did. I mean, when was the last time Jaedong went to the 5th game in a bo5? Savior was taken there many many times.
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On November 10 2009 00:03 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2009 23:50 damenmofa wrote:On November 09 2009 23:46 Plexa wrote:
How soon people forget how close Savior was to being eliminated from pringles. If Midas hadn't choked history would have been different. so what? in fact it is a big part of his legacy. he came close to elimination several times (game 5 vs iris he was way closer imo) but he ALWAYS managed to clutch it out. People have no idea about saviors reign man =/ Jaedong probably had a better win ratio over the past two OSLs than Savior ever did. I mean, when was the last time Jaedong went to the 5th game in a bo5? Savior was taken there many many times.
yeah I dont really understand whats the point your trying to make though. Just to clarify, imo it is a big part of his legacy that he won in such a close fashion so many times. It is more impressing, enjoyable and memorable to me if someone wins in a nailbiter final set than 3-1s his finals opponent with relative ease.
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On November 10 2009 00:02 Avidkeystamper wrote:
A lot of that has to do with his skill, but a lot of that is also nostalgia. He is bonjwa and god (Jaedong has been referred as such before, see his finals v. Fantasy) because he didn't have someone at his level during his reign. But that has no bearing on whether he is more impressive than the trifecta of today. His dominance created a new term for the same reason, he stood above the rest, but again, this has no bearing comparing to contemporary players.
Uh, I have no idea why losing Bo3s in qualifiers dont count. I know it's different, but there's no good argument for disregarding them.
I was saying that in relation to his time, he is the most impressing. Let me simplify it for you.
Player A is better than everbody else for a long period of time. He dominates everybody.
Player B is better than everybody BUT player C and D for a long period of time. He dominates everybody except player C and D.
Which is more impressive? Not considering the factor time is like saying a 10th grader is more impressive in mathematics than Aristoteles because he knows formulas and can therefore calculate things that Aristoteles couldn't. I think your mixing up impressivenes and raw skill. What the 10th grader can calculate is based on more skill than what aristoteles could. But I don't think anybody would argue what the 10th grader does is more impressive than what aristoteles did.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 10 2009 00:13 damenmofa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2009 00:03 Plexa wrote:On November 09 2009 23:50 damenmofa wrote:On November 09 2009 23:46 Plexa wrote:
How soon people forget how close Savior was to being eliminated from pringles. If Midas hadn't choked history would have been different. so what? in fact it is a big part of his legacy. he came close to elimination several times (game 5 vs iris he was way closer imo) but he ALWAYS managed to clutch it out. People have no idea about saviors reign man =/ Jaedong probably had a better win ratio over the past two OSLs than Savior ever did. I mean, when was the last time Jaedong went to the 5th game in a bo5? Savior was taken there many many times. yeah I dont really understand whats the point your trying to make though. Just to clarify, imo it is a big part of his legacy that he won in such a close fashion so many times. It is more impressing, enjoyable and memorable to me if someone wins in a nailbiter final set than 3-1s his finals opponent with relative ease. But that's not the godlike savior destroyed everyone without moving a muscle that everyone has in their minds 
People just expect the next "bonjwa" to have the same presence as Savior did, which isn't the same as every bonjwa before him. For instance, Nada was ridiculously dominant - pretty much the same as Jaedong. I mean, Nada was so ridiculously good that when he 3-0'd Reach people thought that Reach had been paid to throw the games.
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Being based on more raw skill does not make the 10th grader more skillful than Aristotle. Difference between raw skill and what you have access to. I think Jaedong is more impressive because he's better at Starcraft, fairly logical.
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On November 10 2009 00:27 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Being based on more raw skill does not make the 10th grader more skillful than Aristotle. Difference between raw skill and what you have access to. I think Jaedong is more impressive because he's better at Starcraft, fairly logical.
And where is the difference in starcraft? JD had access to saviors games, but not vice versa. Just because we're only talking about a few years and not a cpl thousand years doesnt change the argument. Where on earth is the difference in saying "I think Jaedong is more impressive because he's better at Starcraft, fairly logical." to saying "I think a 10th grader is more impressive because he's better at math, fairly logical.". Agreeing with the first statement while denying the second is a logical contradiction man.
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EPT
