and comon guys, the argument of the article is that savior was the start and the end of the use of the word bonjwa to describe a dominant player. Part of it is when savior came to prominence (when zerg was considered a bad race). Part of it was beating the previous best T players (boxer oov nada). Part of it was that after savior, there was parity. Savior did more for the zerg game (and the zerg metagame, for what that's worth), than any other player, bar maybe (maybe!) yellow.

you can point to nada's accomplishments/style, you can point to oovs accomplishments/style, you can point to boxers accomplishments/style (in all 3 mus for all of them btw), and you can do the same for savior. The accomplishments part is key, as is the general feeling of the time, which cannot be captured in statistics

Kyo Yuy

United States1286 Posts

November 10 2009 20:30 GMT

#122

On November 11 2009 05:03 QibingZero wrote:
And come on, I can find quite a few instances of any player ever going 50% or less in a period of time as short as that. Short-term statistics like that mean nothing. But hey, overall, you might be getting at something: Jaedong is down to 75% lifetime ZvZ. What kind of bonjwa couldn't hold 80%? Furthermore, he only won one of the two starleagues with that ZvZ - a real bonjwa would have won both, no matter how overworked!

Sadly that sarcasm isn't far from the standards people hold Jaedong to. Of course we're never going to have another bonjwa if the bar is set higher than it was for previous ones.

You say that sarcastically, but Savior had an 80% ZvP in 2006 and iloveoov had 27 consecutive wins in TvZ during his period of dominance.

Jaedong did not qualify for the OSL round of 16 in the EVER 2008 OSL. He lost to Casy, and then to Backho, kinda like how Bisu lost to Shine in the round of 36 of the EVER 2009 OSL. There's a reason why people don't call Bisu a bonjwa, and it's somewhat similar to why people don't call Jaedong a bonjwa.

It's not just a matter of accomplishments and skill. Savior was the first player that was really dubbed a bonjwa, even though he came on to the scene AFTER Nada's 3 OSL and 3 MSL titles. Nada is the most accomplished player of all time, yet Savior is the one most people associate the term bonjwa with. Why do you think that is?

That's not meant to be a rhetorical or sarcastic question. Why do we hear Ma Bonjwa, but never Lee Bonjwa (a term which could be used for Nada, Flash, AND Jaedong)? Why does someone with 3 MSLs and 1 OSL have such a greater reputation than someone who has the Golden Mouse, 3 MSL titles, AND was on top 30 Kespa for over 7 years?

Although I am not a big fan of the Savior fanboyism, even I have to admit it. Savior was THE bonjwa. He didn't popularize progaming, he didn't win 3 OSLs, his prominence on the scene began in late 2005 when players like Boxer and iloveoov have been around for so much longer.

But he is Ma Bonjwa. He popularized that term and caused fans to retroactively label Boxer, Nada, and iloveoov as such.

If you can reasonably tell me why the term bonjwa is more strongly associated with Savior than with the most accomplished player in Starcraft history, then you can tell me why Jaedong deserves to be called a bonjwa.

MageKirby

United States535 Posts

November 11 2009 03:52 GMT

#123

I'm curious though. Why is Flash never a real candidate in the bonjwa discussion? I only ever see jaedong and bisu. lol No terran love? xD

nayumi

Australia6499 Posts

November 11 2009 03:55 GMT

#124

I'd turn gay for Boxer. God damn it ... he looks so hot!

Avidkeystamper

United States8556 Posts

November 11 2009 04:04 GMT

#125

On November 11 2009 05:30 Kyo Yuy wrote:

Show nested quote +

I'd just like to interrupt for a bit to say that if I had to pick an argument against Jaedong, I'd hear it from Kyo Yuy than anyone else.

GrumpySmurf

United States7 Posts

November 15 2009 22:40 GMT

#126

Numbers and statistics alone never have been and never will be the deciding factor in whether or not someone is or isn't a bonjwa. Numbers only mean so much, and bonjwa-dom always has and always will require that special "something" . It's that "force" that can't be quantified or reflected in win-loss ratios, number of titles and ELO rankings. Look at the guy! It's not just about stats or number of titles. It's the aura. Feel the force. That's the difference. That's what made him THE O.G. Ma Bonjwa.

Wake me up when JD or Bisu or Flash can rock that hair with those shades and a suit like that. No poppped collars allowed in here. 'Til then any talk about how high their ELO is or how many wins and titles they have only matter in so much as they establish them as great BW players, and noone's arguing about that. It's all about the shades and the collar... bonjwa = PIMP !!

meeple

Canada10211 Posts

November 15 2009 22:46 GMT

#127

lmao... thats a great picture of savior... he looks like 1970's rock star.

Subversive

Australia2229 Posts

November 18 2009 14:11 GMT

#128

I love how everyone who has read a basic philosophy book or taken a semester of philosophy at uni immediately becomes a Master of it and starts quoting the crap they learnt. It's so unimpressive.

I think listening to ppl describe their own poker skill is the only thing more repugnant and false.

LetMeShine

979 Posts

November 18 2009 14:40 GMT

#129

Not surprisingly, Savior fans wear rose tinted glasses for a lot of things. Heck, the whole bonjwa term, from what I've experienced at TL, is simply a way for a lot of people to put their favourite player on a pedestal; a method of idolization (very easily seen with Boxer and Savior).

On November 11 2009 12:52 MageKirby wrote:
I'm curious though. Why is Flash never a real candidate in the bonjwa discussion? I only ever see jaedong and bisu. lol No terran love? xD

Besides crushing Stork 3-0 in the Bacchus OSL (?), he hasn't achieved anything special unlike the other two who have won a crapload of MSL (Bisu) and OSL (Jaedong) titles.

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