[This column from Fomos' "Mania Column" section (10/19/09) - which showcases excellent articles by users - argues for one of the ideas of Bonjwa that has been around: the theory of Bonjwa has started and ended with Savior. It's one of the very well-written pieces on the theory of Bonjwa that I've read, hence the sharing. Pics not part of the original column.]
Original article title: What's the Theory of Bonjwa?
It's time to think about where the theory of Bonjwa started.
The word "Bonjwa" first came around when JulyZerg's fans began calling him as such, after he beat Goodfriend to win an OSL. But the theory of Bonjwa wasn't around; it was just a nickname. Not a Bonjwa as we know it nowadays. The best Zerg? Something like that.
Although JulyZerg and GoRush beat a Terran for a championship, GoRush was weak against iloveoov and his dominance lasted little; and JulyZerg wasn't valued high because the opponent was GoodFriend (he was also weak against NaDa).
IOPS OSL. It was the age of the JulyZerg and GoRush duo. But Nada's reverse sweep against GoRush at the round of 4 and shutout against JulyZerg at the final inflicted a lasting wound to Zerg fans, and Terran seemed insurmountable to Zerg.
He was valued low; the word of "winning after beating Protoss only" came around and he was thought to be lucky. More precisely, he was considered the one who ruined the return of a hero - Reach; some unknown person who ruined the show. The attribute wasn't that wrong considering the mood of the time.
Maybe that's why Savior wasn't as welcome champion as JulyZerg and GoRush.
He became a champion without being glorified by the glib OGN commentator Um. MBC Game didn't totally feel satisfied with his win, thinking that the push for the return of the hero backfired.
When the hope of a Zerg champion was accomplished, the solution against Terran wasn't ready. In this weird time, Savior came to the experimental stage.
Bonjwas, in their shiny glories Boxer and Nada, "I look so good..." Iloveoov and Savior, "I AM so good..."
Iloveoov. The monster who began Terran's outmacroing Zerg. The one who beat YellOw to end the romantic age of strategy and open the age of macro.
CYON MSL. The result was Savior's 5:0 dominance. Including two event games earlier, it was an absolute dominance of 7:0. The championship went to ChoJJa, but Savior was given a due credit.
Thereby came the beginning of the "Savior assessment theory."
The following Pringles-1 MSL. Savior won the championship with an absolute dominance. Chojja and Nal_rA failed. The first assessment ended.
Since then Savior's every game came to a spotlight. Even his event games in his early days began to be analyzed and re-evaluated. The discussion on how to bring him down was omnipresent, and progamers who might beat him began to be mentioned.
In another word, after the Pringles 1, Savior's every game became a yardstick for the assessment.
The standard was high. Besides his fans, he had to satisfy the fans of the previously dominant Zerg progamers (especially Yellow) as well as meet the conditions required by the fans of Terran and Protoss:
Beat this guy. How about this one? Really? Win again? How about that one? This guy on this map? Really doubt you can beat him on that map? Man, you're scary. If you can beat that guy on that map. .........
Of course, Savior sometimes lost, but not to the point of not satisfying the assessment. Savior assessment theory started after the Pringles 1.
From then to the March 3 revolution, he didn't lose a single televized multiple-gamed match.
The lasting assessment continued to the last card of Protoss - Nal_rA. Savior won, and Nal_rA's fans gave up. The tranquility of Nal_rA's fans after the match was the silent acknowledgement. Savior went on to win his third MSL (fourth consecutive final and second consecutive win).
The jungle of the strong, MSL, was dominated by Savior's red flag, and he became the dictator.
The assessment went on to OSL. Although Terran fan's spiritual lord BoxeR and the genius Nada coming back were ready, their matchup seemed unlikely.
But an event tournament called 1st CJ Superfight was held. Savior was lucky in many ways. If Boxer went to the army without the Superfight, Savior the Bonjwa might not have existed. Really.
The result was a shutout. Savior couldn't be stopped, crushing Starcraft's icon with a low race like Zerg. 3rd CJ Superfight came. MSL champion vs OSL champion matchup was established for the first time. Savior beat Nada by 3:1, and no Terran fan could deny him.
Bonjwas, in their downtimes
What remained was OSL. And the new season began.
Zerg totally failed on Longinus and on the Reverse Temple. Savior survived and went to the finals of both individual leagues. At the OSL final, he beat Nada and ended the assessment theory.
[Translator's addition: the OGN commentator Um's remark right after Savior's win captured the mood of the time, "Nada is a human, human! How can a human beat a god?"]
No Stacraft fan could deny him.
The theory of Bonjwa started as the Savior assessment theory, and he passed all the assessments and finalized the theory of Bonjwa.
Let's summarize the assessments that he passed.
1. Surprise - A newcomer winning a championship 2. The dark age of Zerg - Rise as Zerg's hope. Made other Zergs look same. The glorious triumph over Longinus and the Reverse Temple. 3. Overcame Terran, especially Boxer, Nada, and Iloveoov - Win rate incomparable to other Zergs. Totally dominated the Terran trio. 4. Continuous dominance - Win rate, most wins, ProLeague record. Three championships in a year. Five consecutive MSL final. Swept event matches. 5. Dominance over strong contemporaries - Beat every dominant progamer of his era of every race in a multiple-gamed match (Bisu was rather a newcomer than a dominant progamer at that time).
Other aspects might exist...
But it's hard to meet the kind of circumstances that Savior was in. The dark age for a race doesn't come often. Neither does a demand as that race to beat someone. Dominating pretty much all tournaments in a year and meeting the strong progamers of the era at important matches are impossible without luck (Bisu and Jaedong have yet to meet each other at a multiple-gamed match at OSL or MSL).
The theory of Bonjwa has started and ended with Savior.
On November 07 2009 17:24 StylishVODs wrote: What, did he get to 5 consecutive MSL finals? good read, pictures not working for me though
Yes, this insane fact is forgotten sometimes nowadays!
Also not losing a BoX for basically an entire year.
But with Savior I'll always remember the MSL semifinals against Mind, where he lost 3-2. It was his last gasp and Mind was better, but he still could have won, and faced Bisu in what would have been probably the biggest final in SC history. I think he would have lost to Bisu but you never know.
Once he lost to Mind there it seemed clear that it was over. In my mind it'll always be the one that got away. The one that could have been...
On November 07 2009 18:08 araav wrote: good read, thanks for translation. The "end of Bonjwa" part was not convincing though. Jaedong seems as strong nowdays as Savior was then
That's not really the point though. It's an article written to define bonjwa as a set of criteria (assessments) that only savior meets. One could easily define bonjwa in a different manner. Jaedong could probably pass assessment 1, 4, and 5, but not 2 and 3. 3 is debatable on whether the assessment can be met simply by defeating strong terran or if the specific trio of boxer, nada, oov must be defeated. Author's intent is kinda murky here.
He even admits "But it's hard to meet the kind of circumstances that Savior was in." Jaedong could win the next 10 OSLs, but unless he invents a time machine, he cannot become bonjwa by this author's standard.
Similarly, if someone's definition of bonjwa states that you MUST have a golden mouse, then savior would not be one by definition. The arguments over bonjwa are not so much about the players, but about the criterion that ought to be used.
Interesting, though I guess this just proves that the definition of bonjwa is different depending on who you ask. Personally, I thought savior's dominance was more rooted in his game management and star sense than anything else. Just about anyone who is even remotely considered bonjwa fits some of this criteria, after all.
Being a newcomer when winning a championship?
This is obvious. Boxer, GARIMTO, Nada, July, Anytime, Savior, and Jaedong have all been royal roaders. oov surfaced not only with wins, but a ridiculous style of play. Bisu came out of nowhere to win his first MSL. Flash was an unknown beating all kinds of people (including Bisu himself). Pretty much everyone who wins a starleague has made a splash on the scene - it's just a matter of whether or not they stayed.
Better than the rest of your race? Wins on unfavorable maps?
These even fit today's dominant players like Jaedong, Flash, and Bisu. All have been unquestionably the top of their race, and have found ways to reverse the trend on various maps (Jaedong and Flash on Katrina, for example). Jaedong is probably the best example here, since it's taken other zergs ages to finally catch up to where he was at, and a lot of that has to do with zergs having maps in their favor now.
Overall dominance?
Savior was at about 69% for his span of 4 starleague wins and 2 MSL silvers.
Jaedong was also at 69% from EVER2007 to Bacchus 2009 (and surprisingly higher if you were to end it at Batoo instead). That's also 4 starleague wins in almost exactly the same amount of time. He also won GOM Classic 1, WCG Korea, GOM's special match vs Bisu, and had an MSL silver.
Flash is right at 70% from Bacchus to GOM Classic 3, and over 70% if you include his current streak. Of course, this only includes one starleague win and some GOM league ownage.
Bisu was actually a bit lower at 65% for his span of 3 Starleague wins, though his were over a slightly longer period of time (a little over 2 years, while the others are all a little under 2 years). He also won GOM Classic 2 during this time and had an MSL silver.
Interesting notes:
- Savior played around half the matches the others did in the same amount of time - Flash and Jaedong destroyed Proleague (and really still are) - Bisu's lower win % has a lot to do with the fact he started off shaky in proleague, even though he fared very well in individual leagues
Winning multiple game matches?
Savior was 9-2 in bo5 matches during the period of dominance mentioned above.
Jaedong was 13-2, and has beaten Bisu so I'm really not sure what the poster is talking about (I counted Savior's win vs Nada in Superfight, too). Maybe he means only bo5s that took place in the MSL or OSL, because Jaedong also won a bo3 they played in the MSL.
Bisu was 13-3 (1 loss to Jaedong, 1 loss to Flash).
Flash was 9-3 (2 of those losses to Jaedong).
These are ridiculous numbers when you consider that they're happening at very much the same time as each other.
So yeah, I don't think these are the factors that made savior bonjwa. Sure, it's part stats, but it's also feeling. Feeling in the same way star sense is feeling. When Savior played, you knew he was going to somehow find victory, regardless of what his opponent was doing at the time. Despite being one of the best and closest games of all time, it somehow wasn't that surprising when Savior beat Iris during Shinhan 3. That was what he did - he found victory no matter where it was hiding.
It's that type of feeling where a player knows the game so well you sense as if he'd be no better if he were actually maphacking. Savior had it, and we've seen glimpses of that only a few times since (for me, a huge one was Jaedong's comeback vs fantasy during Batoo).
Having said that, the stats I listed above are pretty crazy, and do merit discussion if we're going to go along the path this poster would suggest.
it is universally agreed that the 4 bonjwa's are BoxeR, NaDa, Iloveoov, and sAviOr
It's a title given by the community. Bonjwa arguments are worthless because if you're arguing about whether or not someone is bonjwa, then they probably aren't bonjwa. The difference between sAviOr and Jaedong is when sAviOr was dominating, that was it, no one could touch him and no one else was even close.
When Jaedong is dominating, so is FlaSh, so is Bisu, etc. Jaedong isn't really alone, even though he might be above the others.
On November 07 2009 19:25 QibingZero wrote: Interesting, though I guess this just proves that the definition of bonjwa is different depending on who you ask. Personally, I thought savior's dominance was more rooted in his game management and star sense than anything else. Just about anyone who is even remotely considered bonjwa fits some of this criteria, after all.
Being a newcomer when winning a championship?
This is obvious. Boxer, GARIMTO, Nada, July, Anytime, Savior, and Jaedong have all been royal roaders. oov surfaced not only with wins, but a ridiculous style of play. Bisu came out of nowhere to win his first MSL. Flash was an unknown beating all kinds of people (including Bisu himself). Pretty much everyone who wins a starleague has made a splash on the scene - it's just a matter of whether or not they stayed.
Better than the rest of your race? Wins on unfavorable maps?
These even fit today's dominant players like Jaedong, Flash, and Bisu. All have been unquestionably the top of their race, and have found ways to reverse the trend on various maps (Jaedong and Flash on Katrina, for example). Jaedong is probably the best example here, since it's taken other zergs ages to finally catch up to where he was at, and a lot of that has to do with zergs having maps in their favor now.
Overall dominance?
Savior was at about 69% for his span of 4 starleague wins and 2 MSL silvers.
Jaedong was also at 69% from EVER2007 to Bacchus 2009 (and surprisingly higher if you were to end it at Batoo instead). That's also 4 starleague wins in almost exactly the same amount of time. He also won GOM Classic 1, WCG Korea, GOM's special match vs Bisu, and had an MSL silver.
Flash is right at 70% from Bacchus to GOM Classic 3, and over 70% if you include his current streak. Of course, this only includes one starleague win and some GOM league ownage.
Bisu was actually a bit lower at 65% for his span of 3 Starleague wins, though his were over a slightly longer period of time (a little over 2 years, while the others are all a little under 2 years). He also won GOM Classic 2 during this time and had an MSL silver.
Interesting notes:
- Savior played around half the matches the others did in the same amount of time - Flash and Jaedong destroyed Proleague (and really still are) - Bisu's lower win % has a lot to do with the fact he started off shaky in proleague, even though he fared very well in individual leagues
Winning multiple game matches?
Savior was 9-2 in bo5 matches during the period of dominance mentioned above.
Jaedong was 13-2, and has beaten Bisu so I'm really not sure what the poster is talking about (I counted Savior's win vs Nada in Superfight, too). Maybe he means only bo5s that took place in the MSL or OSL, because Jaedong also won a bo3 they played in the MSL.
Bisu was 13-3 (1 loss to Jaedong, 1 loss to Flash).
Flash was 9-3 (2 of those losses to Jaedong).
These are ridiculous numbers when you consider that they're happening at very much the same time as each other.
So yeah, I don't think these are the factors that made savior bonjwa. Sure, it's part stats, but it's also feeling. Feeling in the same way star sense is feeling. When Savior played, you knew he was going to somehow find victory, regardless of what his opponent was doing at the time. Despite being one of the best and closest games of all time, it somehow wasn't that surprising when Savior beat Iris during Shinhan 3. That was what he did - he found victory no matter where it was hiding.
It's that type of feeling where a player knows the game so well you sense as if he'd be no better if he were actually maphacking. Savior had it, and we've seen glimpses of that only a few times since (for me, a huge one was Jaedong's comeback vs fantasy during Batoo).
Having said that, the stats I listed above are pretty crazy, and do merit discussion if we're going to go along the path this poster would suggest.
I love how you did an analysis of "multiple game matches" and didn't include BO3's
The analysis was nice but come on - BO3 is part of the deal here
I know this isn't the main point of discussion, but every time I see these tallies it amazes me that oov never lost a final. 5 golds 0 silvers is really, really impressive.
QibingZero , your arguments are interesting, i think it shows why none of JD, Flash and Bisu is called bonjwa, they reached their prime around the same time and there's no clear favourite between them, it really depends on the day to day form. Savior was a favourite against anyone, anytime, on any kind of maps, the article shows that very well. That's the main difference imo.
On November 07 2009 19:25 QibingZero wrote: Better than the rest of your race? Wins on unfavorable maps?
These even fit today's dominant players like Jaedong, Flash, and Bisu. All have been unquestionably the top of their race, and have found ways to reverse the trend on various maps (Jaedong and Flash on Katrina, for example). Jaedong is probably the best example here, since it's taken other zergs ages to finally catch up to where he was at, and a lot of that has to do with zergs having maps in their favor now.
You probably weren't around back then otherwise you wouldn't say this. The maps back then were much worse in balance than most of the current maps. The biggest exceptions that I can think of would be Katrina (which admittedly Flash did nicely on), Battle Royal (PL only, few people played races other than Z there), Geometry (again, PL only, almost no non-Terrans played there), and Demon's Forest (was banned for the leagues).
Savior had to overcome Zerg graveyard after Zerg graveyard, which is what impressed everybody.
Overall dominance?
Savior was at about 69% for his span of 4 starleague wins and 2 MSL silvers.
Jaedong was also at 69% from EVER2007 to Bacchus 2009 (and surprisingly higher if you were to end it at Batoo instead). That's also 4 starleague wins in almost exactly the same amount of time. He also won GOM Classic 1, WCG Korea, GOM's special match vs Bisu, and had an MSL silver.
Flash is right at 70% from Bacchus to GOM Classic 3, and over 70% if you include his current streak. Of course, this only includes one starleague win and some GOM league ownage.
Bisu was actually a bit lower at 65% for his span of 3 Starleague wins, though his were over a slightly longer period of time (a little over 2 years, while the others are all a little under 2 years). He also won GOM Classic 2 during this time and had an MSL silver.
Interesting notes:
- Savior played around half the matches the others did in the same amount of time - Flash and Jaedong destroyed Proleague (and really still are) - Bisu's lower win % has a lot to do with the fact he started off shaky in proleague, even though he fared very well in individual leagues
With today's emphasis on PL and the featuring of Winner's League (in which JD went 22-5 and other top players had similar records), and also the fact that OSL and MSL start with rounds of 36 and 32 respectively, win percentages (and subsequently ELO) don't mean as much as they used to.
When Boxer played, every win he achieved was during the Ro16 or better in a tournament. He achieved such dominance by making the medals podium at almost every single tournament. More than half of all tournaments were his.
Compared to Bisu, Flash and JD, Savior did an okay job qualifying for leagues (especially since the standard was slightly higher, due to tournaments being smaller), and he made the finals of a Starleague in literally every season.
And one last "interesting note:" Savior's win percentage continued to increase over his career. JD's has actually dipped lately and no one would seriously consider Flash or Bisu as a bonjwa (they need more championships). In the 12 months before his loss to Bisu in MSL, Savior was winning 74% of his games.
Not only that, but Savior made ZvT look completely imbalanced, as he won 69% of his ZvT matches during the two year period prior to his MSL loss to Bisu. And he did this in an era when Terran was strong, with Oov achieving better than 80% TvZ wins and NaDa, Midas and Boxer all being 70% winners and other strong players like Hwasin and Casy and Xellos all looking sharp vs Zerg.
Winning multiple game matches?
Savior was 9-2 in bo5 matches during the period of dominance mentioned above.
Jaedong was 13-2, and has beaten Bisu so I'm really not sure what the poster is talking about (I counted Savior's win vs Nada in Superfight, too). Maybe he means only bo5s that took place in the MSL or OSL, because Jaedong also won a bo3 they played in the MSL.
Bisu was 13-3 (1 loss to Jaedong, 1 loss to Flash).
Flash was 9-3 (2 of those losses to Jaedong).
These are ridiculous numbers when you consider that they're happening at very much the same time as each other.
Completely irrelevant. The point isn't that you played a BoX, it's who you played. Savior gets props for crushing every other contender, every player who people thought should be the next big thing.
JD, Flash and Bisu all have such stellar BoX records, [i]but could they do it if they were all forced to face each other[i] again and again to fight for only two crowns when the Starleagues have a max of 24 players?
The answer is obviously no. One of them would have to come out on top. JD does have an edge in record over Flash, but not over Bisu (who he is even with). And Flash has an edge over Bisu.
It's okay for a bonjwa to have a rival, but two rivals? And that's not even counting Stork or Fantasy or any of the up and comers like Calm, who's looking every bit like he's going to be the next big thing right now.
Right now the climate of progaming is different. Right now we have two players over 2300 in ELO and a whole bunch of players close to 2300 (3 in the high 2200's). In the old days this would not have been possible. If there would have been two players over 2300, then everyone else would be down in the dumps. The fact that so many more games are played these days by so many more people means that using ELO as a comparison between current top players and former top players fails. But ELO just draws its numbers based on stats, and players with higher win percentages are statistically more likely to go on long streaks, thus statistically more likely to receive major ELO boosts. (Critics of this argument may point out that newbies stealing a game from JD or Flash will do massive damage to the ELO ratings of those players, but the fact is that today's "A-level" gamer has a much higher ELO than the "A-level" gamers of 3 years ago, so JD or Flash can then "repair" their ELO rating fairly easily with wins over A-level gamers.
In the past, bonjwas were basically the players who broke 2300 in ELO (Boxer and NaDa now have this since the ratings have been adjusted to account for more old tournaments that previously were not in the TLPD, such as Game-Q). But by definition, you cannot have two bonjwas at the same time anymore. And just when it appears that JD is the "most sure candidate" for the title, he falls behind both Flash and Bisu, both of his rivals, in ELO. This isn't a situation we have had before.
We likely won't see a real "bonjwa" again.
So yeah, I don't think these are the factors that made savior bonjwa. Sure, it's part stats, but it's also feeling. Feeling in the same way star sense is feeling. When Savior played, you knew he was going to somehow find victory, regardless of what his opponent was doing at the time. Despite being one of the best and closest games of all time, it somehow wasn't that surprising when Savior beat Iris during Shinhan 3. That was what he did - he found victory no matter where it was hiding.
This I mostly agree with, but my point is that the meaning of the stats has changed due to changes in how the leagues are structured.
It's that type of feeling where a player knows the game so well you sense as if he'd be no better if he were actually maphacking. Savior had it, and we've seen glimpses of that only a few times since (for me, a huge one was Jaedong's comeback vs fantasy during Batoo).
Yes.
Having said that, the stats I listed above are pretty crazy, and do merit discussion if we're going to go along the path this poster would suggest.
but I'm not really convinced with his style of play, take his game against Pusan a while ago, he just camped 4 bases while denying Pusan's third (why was Pusan insisting on getting the 11 base anyway?). I didn't get the feel that I was watching sAviOr, I felt that I was watching Flash turtle away to victory. I don't know if that's the play style that led him to defy map statistics, I hope it's not.
well I think given the circumstances, Bisu has the opportunity to be the next bonjwa. the race/map imba against toss these days puts him at a good position. and that on top of no toss player really playing too well..
but then again, bisu hasn't been too hot either. failing in starleagues & such. but if he can obtain the dominance savior had with protoss when no other P can do the same, and take down big names zergs like JD, effort, calm etc. then he can be there.
but with that in mind, one can see just how hard it is for bisu to do that, and thats pretty much what savior did from my understanding.
On November 07 2009 20:07 darktreb wrote: I love how you did an analysis of "multiple game matches" and didn't include BO3's
The analysis was nice but come on - BO3 is part of the deal here
If Bo3s were so important, why did the poster claim Jaedong had never beaten Bisu in a 'multiple game match'? Jaedong beat him 2-0 during Arena MSL.
On November 07 2009 23:18 Mortality wrote: You probably weren't around back then otherwise you wouldn't say this. The maps back then were much worse in balance than most of the current maps. The biggest exceptions that I can think of would be Katrina (which admittedly Flash did nicely on), Battle Royal (PL only, few people played races other than Z there), Geometry (again, PL only, almost no non-Terrans played there), and Demon's Forest (was banned for the leagues).
Savior had to overcome Zerg graveyard after Zerg graveyard, which is what impressed everybody.
Naturally, map balance has increased over time, but you overstate a couple things here. First, Terran were dominating both strategically and player-wise at the time. There were many good Terran players, and they were performing well where they should have been. The maps weren't favorable to Zerg, but it was not as bad as it's made out to be. There just weren't Zerg players who were showing consistent results - period. Many of them could beat Protoss players (seriously, Nal_ra's PvZ at the time was as impressive as anything else), but had serious issues with the strong Terran players.
Second, every bonjwa did not have to face this kind of adversity, anyway. Were Boxer and NaDa both not still playing well when oov rolled onto the scene? Terran even had Xellos and Midas playing well at that same time, too! The difference was that at their peaks, the bonjwas all were clearly the best of their race and played well on maps regardless of balance (not that they had to reverse some kind of trend against their race - that much is Zerg history, not bonjwa history).
With today's emphasis on PL and the featuring of Winner's League (in which JD went 22-5 and other top players had similar records), and also the fact that OSL and MSL start with rounds of 36 and 32 respectively, win percentages (and subsequently ELO) don't mean as much as they used to.
When Boxer played, every win he achieved was during the Ro16 or better in a tournament. He achieved such dominance by making the medals podium at almost every single tournament. More than half of all tournaments were his.
Compared to Bisu, Flash and JD, Savior did an okay job qualifying for leagues (especially since the standard was slightly higher, due to tournaments being smaller), and he made the finals of a Starleague in literally every season.
And one last "interesting note:" Savior's win percentage continued to increase over his career. JD's has actually dipped lately and no one would seriously consider Flash or Bisu as a bonjwa (they need more championships). In the 12 months before his loss to Bisu in MSL, Savior was winning 74% of his games.
Not only that, but Savior made ZvT look completely imbalanced, as he won 69% of his ZvT matches during the two year period prior to his MSL loss to Bisu. And he did this in an era when Terran was strong, with Oov achieving better than 80% TvZ wins and NaDa, Midas and Boxer all being 70% winners and other strong players like Hwasin and Casy and Xellos all looking sharp vs Zerg.
I don't see how win percentage means any less than before, especially when over double the amount of games are being played and practicing for each is that much harder. Winner's League only makes that stronger, imo. If you perform well with less time to prepare, isn't that a better show of skill?
I also don't see how Jaedong's win percentage has slipped any - what, maybe 1% less in past year than in the year before that? Besides, picking a year window and saying that Savior's win percentage continued to increase is a little silly, especially considering what happened to him after that window was over. On the other hand, both Jaedong and Flash aren't showing any signs of going away yet...
Completely irrelevant. The point isn't that you played a BoX, it's who you played. Savior gets props for crushing every other contender, every player who people thought should be the next big thing.
JD, Flash and Bisu all have such stellar BoX records, [i]but could they do it if they were all forced to face each other[i] again and again to fight for only two crowns when the Starleagues have a max of 24 players?
The answer is obviously no. One of them would have to come out on top. JD does have an edge in record over Flash, but not over Bisu (who he is even with). And Flash has an edge over Bisu.
It's okay for a bonjwa to have a rival, but two rivals? And that's not even counting Stork or Fantasy or any of the up and comers like Calm, who's looking every bit like he's going to be the next big thing right now.
It's not as if Savior only played oov and Nada in bo5s during this time, haha. There were still a good variety of players he had to face, and he was still beating up on relative unknowns during qualifiers like everyone else has to. It's also not as if he didn't lose. He lost to a definite 'contender' and a 'player who people thought should be the next big thing' in Chojja. But we don't argue Savior wasn't bonjwa just because he was 1-2 in bo5s against Chojja do we?
Another serious problem with this argument is that it's one Boxer could make against Savior himself. Compared to Boxer in 2000-2001, Savior played against a wide variety of players who were not always his chief rivals.
A bunch of ELO stuff
There's a reason I didn't mention ELO even once. There are all sorts of issues you start getting into when talking about it...
We likely won't see a real "bonjwa" again.
Not if we're incredibly strict about defining one, and care more about nostalgia than anything. We can list a thousand reasons why we think Savior was bonjwa while newer heroes are not, but the only one with any merit is that no one else challenged Savior's dominance and really shut him down for almost 2 years. Meanwhile, Flash/Jaedong/Bisu can be argued to have the same dominant periods, but together have created a rivalry amongst themselves that defers popular opinion away from the support of any singular one. As bonjwa is just a perception of dominance, it's nearly impossible for even Jaedong to gain strong bonjwa support while Flash and Bisu are still strong players who win tournaments (and have huge fanbases backing them).
Savior lost BoX series in the offlines. I don't know if that's considered (I know KeSPA counts those matches toward win/loss), but I guess different circumstances.
Pics should be showing up now. They showed up on FireFox but not on Chrome and maybe some other browsers. Koreans are really good at making their pics not linkable to prevent abuse...used my usual trick of uploading them to Facebook and linking them from there...
On November 07 2009 18:08 araav wrote: good read, thanks for translation. The "end of Bonjwa" part was not convincing though. Jaedong seems as strong nowdays as Savior was then
That's not really the point though. It's an article written to define bonjwa as a set of criteria (assessments) that only savior meets. One could easily define bonjwa in a different manner. Jaedong could probably pass assessment 1, 4, and 5, but not 2 and 3. 3 is debatable on whether the assessment can be met simply by defeating strong terran or if the specific trio of boxer, nada, oov must be defeated. Author's intent is kinda murky here.
He even admits "But it's hard to meet the kind of circumstances that Savior was in." Jaedong could win the next 10 OSLs, but unless he invents a time machine, he cannot become bonjwa by this author's standard.
Similarly, if someone's definition of bonjwa states that you MUST have a golden mouse, then savior would not be one by definition. The arguments over bonjwa are not so much about the players, but about the criterion that ought to be used.
I think the author was referring to the legends of the previous time not necessarily Boxer/Nada/Oov trio specifically. Plus the dominant progamers of the race that your race is weak against.
One thing I really hate about the Savior Bonjwa discussion was that he kept defeating map imbalance in every single league and destroyed map imbalances. Is that the reason he had 2 ZvZ MSL finals? The only really rigged map pool he ever played on was Shinhan 3, which is darn impressive, but it feels like orwellian propaganda when all his leagues are being treated the same way.All the rest were pretty decent Zerg map pools and Z>>>P back then so it didnt really matter if Protosses kept qualifying. He was also invincible in live bo3s for sure, but he kept getting out in the offlines of OSL which is less impressive I suppose.
Edit: This is the main thing I hate about the bonjwa discussions, its mainly subjective confirmation bias with a lot of nitpicking for each person presented, and the main arguements presented against Jaedong is usually something only one Bonjwa did, well one thing is for sure, imo JD accomplished more and was more successful than Boxer in nearly all areas for this short period of time, so why is Boxer considered a Bonjwa and JD not, Boxer sure did have a larger effect on the game, but Bonjwa measures dominance and not influence.
Well, Bisu v.s. Savior MSL final was before my time. I got around the scene after Bisu already lost to Mind in the MSL final. However, one thing that I noticed is that some of the old posts already addressed Bisu as a bonjwa. Seemed to me that prior to Bisu v.s. Mind and Bisu dropped out of that OSL after attaining his third MSL, Bisu was being seriously considered as a bonjwa by some of the community back then.
On November 08 2009 01:33 dukethegold wrote: Well, Bisu v.s. Savior MSL final was before my time. I got around the scene after Bisu already lost to Mind in the MSL final. However, one thing that I noticed is that some of the old posts already addressed Bisu as a bonjwa. Seemed to me that prior to Bisu v.s. Mind and Bisu dropped out of that OSL after attaining his third MSL, Bisu was being seriously considered as a bonjwa by some of the community back then.
I am not really clear on that on. Confirm?
Of course he was considered bonjwa candidate , but his reign lasted way too short to be one.
Savior I think, is my favorite bonjwa- and the most compelling. Boxer as a man probably has more to offer, considering he gave his own money at times in order to keep a league running, so you have to respect that, but in terms of play and storylines, the general feel, I think Savior captured what it "is" to be starcraft better than anyone else.
On November 08 2009 01:25 samachking wrote: Edit: This is the main thing I hate about the bonjwa discussions, its mainly subjective confirmation bias with a lot of nitpicking for each person presented, and the main arguements presented against Jaedong is usually something only one Bonjwa did, well one thing is for sure, imo JD accomplished more and was more successful than Boxer in nearly all areas for this short period of time, so why is Boxer considered a Bonjwa and JD not, Boxer sure did have a larger effect on the game, but Bonjwa measures dominance and not influence.
Boxer won a slew of leagues all at once. Savior did. Iloveoov/Nada didn't really fit that pattern, but the effect they had on the game and the awe factor in playing them simply outways what it is to play Jaedong. For ex: On the pr jaedong is often at #1- probably the most so far out of everyone- but if the pr had existed throughout the reigns of the bonjwas, they would of been number 1 every single month, and every single time it wouldnt of been even remotely close. There was a MASSIVE gap between them and the rest. There isn't a massive gap between Jaedong, Bisu, Flash, Calm, etc.
On November 08 2009 01:37 yhnmk wrote: Savior I think, is my favorite bonjwa- and the most compelling. Boxer as a man probably has more to offer, considering he gave his own money at times in order to keep a league running, so you have to respect that, but in terms of play and storylines, the general feel, I think Savior captured what it "is" to be starcraft better than anyone else.
On November 08 2009 01:25 samachking wrote: Edit: This is the main thing I hate about the bonjwa discussions, its mainly subjective confirmation bias with a lot of nitpicking for each person presented, and the main arguements presented against Jaedong is usually something only one Bonjwa did, well one thing is for sure, imo JD accomplished more and was more successful than Boxer in nearly all areas for this short period of time, so why is Boxer considered a Bonjwa and JD not, Boxer sure did have a larger effect on the game, but Bonjwa measures dominance and not influence.
Boxer won a slew of leagues all at once. Savior did. Iloveoov/Nada didn't really fit that pattern, but the effect they had on the game and the awe factor in playing them simply outways what it is to play Jaedong. For ex: On the pr jaedong is often at #1- probably the most so far out of everyone- but if the pr had existed throughout the reigns of the bonjwas, they would of been number 1 every single month, and every single time it wouldnt of been even remotely close. There was a MASSIVE gap between them and the rest. There isn't a massive gap between Jaedong, Bisu, Flash, Calm, etc.
Period.
Bisu,Flash,Calm all won 1 league in JD's reign and none of them even faced him in the finals This is like saying July didnt exist in Oov's reign, Garimto/Reach/Yellow with boxer, and Chojja with Nada/Savior and even Nada/Ra with Savior. They all had rivals of similar level, but one of them kept winning and thats why they are bonjwas today, JD only lost 2 bo5s since the start of EVER OSL and those were to ForGG and Calm, neither who are candidates against bonjwa for him, personally I believe if the tri bo3 exit in the 6 Dragon era didnt happen to JD we would be chanting Bonjwa at jaedong, but thats my opinion.
On November 08 2009 01:37 yhnmk wrote: Savior I think, is my favorite bonjwa- and the most compelling. Boxer as a man probably has more to offer, considering he gave his own money at times in order to keep a league running, so you have to respect that, but in terms of play and storylines, the general feel, I think Savior captured what it "is" to be starcraft better than anyone else.
On November 08 2009 01:25 samachking wrote: Edit: This is the main thing I hate about the bonjwa discussions, its mainly subjective confirmation bias with a lot of nitpicking for each person presented, and the main arguements presented against Jaedong is usually something only one Bonjwa did, well one thing is for sure, imo JD accomplished more and was more successful than Boxer in nearly all areas for this short period of time, so why is Boxer considered a Bonjwa and JD not, Boxer sure did have a larger effect on the game, but Bonjwa measures dominance and not influence.
Boxer won a slew of leagues all at once. Savior did. Iloveoov/Nada didn't really fit that pattern, but the effect they had on the game and the awe factor in playing them simply outways what it is to play Jaedong. For ex: On the pr jaedong is often at #1- probably the most so far out of everyone- but if the pr had existed throughout the reigns of the bonjwas, they would of been number 1 every single month, and every single time it wouldnt of been even remotely close. There was a MASSIVE gap between them and the rest. There isn't a massive gap between Jaedong, Bisu, Flash, Calm, etc.
Period.
Bisu,Flash,Calm all won 1 league in JD's reign and none of them even faced him in the finals This is like saying July didnt exist in Oov's reign, Garimto/Reach/Yellow with boxer, and Chojja with Nada/Savior and even Nada/Ra with Savior. They all had rivals of similar level, but one of them kept winning and thats why they are bonjwas today, JD only lost 2 bo5s since the start of EVER OSL and those were to ForGG and Calm, neither who are candidates against bonjwa for him, personally I believe if the tri bo3 exit in the 6 Dragon era didnt happen to JD we would be chanting Bonjwa at jaedong, but thats my opinion.
There is no "JD's reign" thats my point. He won a whole hell of a lot, and won a whole hell of a lot of leagues, but he was never consistently the best. The closest the Bonjwa's had was someone who could take them to their level (midas vs savior for ex), they never had someone who was actually better than them, even if they managed to squeek out a victory [july vs oov]. Jaedong HASNT been the best player in the world throughout his so called reign, hes lost finals, dropped out in groups, dropped out in b03's, etc. He's been outshone even if temporarily, by many players. There was never any question that Midas' was Saviors biggest rival towards the latter half of his reign, but there was also never ANY question that savior was the best player in the world, even if he didn't win a starleague or even qualify for one. Jaedongs a first amongst equals, hes "just a man", however talented.
On November 08 2009 01:37 yhnmk wrote: Boxer won a slew of leagues all at once. Savior did. Iloveoov/Nada didn't really fit that pattern
uuuh? Oov and Nada both won 3 MSLs in a row following up with an OSL right afterward, if that`s not winning a slew of leagues then what is?
My mistake. I thought oov won two msl's then lost in his first osl run, and the same general pattern had occurred to nada. Oh well, just reinforces my point about the utter domination of bonjwa's relative to everyone else, and how current top players simply can not be compared. :O
So yeah, I don't think these are the factors that made savior bonjwa. Sure, it's part stats, but it's also feeling. Feeling in the same way star sense is feeling. When Savior played, you knew he was going to somehow find victory, regardless of what his opponent was doing at the time. Despite being one of the best and closest games of all time, it somehow wasn't that surprising when Savior beat Iris during Shinhan 3. That was what he did - he found victory no matter where it was hiding.
It's that type of feeling where a player knows the game so well you sense as if he'd be no better if he were actually maphacking. Savior had it, and we've seen glimpses of that only a few times since (for me, a huge one was Jaedong's comeback vs fantasy during Batoo).
100% agree with this. Watching a savior game back in the days was that special kind of feeling nobody has reproduced on a constant basis ever again. You could feel his sheer dominance through a fuckin low-quality livestream, god I can't even imagine how you must have felt watching him live in the OGN/MBC studio. Nobody since then has even come close to that imo (including JD/Bisu/Flash).
On November 08 2009 00:11 scintilliaSD wrote: I think the defining bonjwa rule is the following.
1) If someone else can make a convincing argument why another player of the same era should be a bonjwa, then none of the players in question are.
I completely agree. No one can be a bonjwa. One can only be THE bonjwa. The current situation reminds me of the Romance of 3 Kingdoms. Jaedong would have to be Ciao Ciao as he rules over the largest army on the scene currently, the zerg. Bisu and Flash are Liu Bei and Sun Quan. They both can match Jaedong individually, but their armies currently pale in comparison.
On November 08 2009 00:11 scintilliaSD wrote: I think the defining bonjwa rule is the following.
1) If someone else can make a convincing argument why another player of the same era should be a bonjwa, then none of the players in question are.
I completely agree. No one can be a bonjwa. One can only be THE bonjwa. The current situation reminds me of the Romance of 3 Kingdoms. Jaedong would have to be Ciao Ciao as he rules over the largest army on the scene currently, the zerg. Bisu and Flash are Liu Bei and Sun Quan. They both can match Jaedong individually, but their armies currently pale in comparison.
The theory of Bonjwa has started with Savior and ended with Savior.
The article does not say Boxer, Nada and Oov were or are Bonjwa. (The photos that were added were confusing in that respect) Only Savior was and ever will be. (and rightly so btw)
If we take a broader view of the Bonjwa term you can use this rule: If there is a discussion if a player is bonjwa or not, the player in question is not bonjwa.
Don't fret though fans, neither Jaedong or Bisu is done yet, neither is flash for that matter.
If we take a broader view of the Bonjwa term you can use this rule: If there is a discussion if a player is bonjwa or not, the player in question is not bonjwa.
Bonjwa is an ugly word anyways.
I see that rule quoted in this thread but that's a pretty bad rule tbh. It's not rigorous at all. Titles, records, rivalries, finals appearances, etc. are much better measures of bonjwa status. In fact, instead of being a "broader" view, this is possibly the narrowest of all bonjwa definitions.
If a player is dominant and commonly accepted to be a bonjwa, all it would take is someone to open a thread discussing whether that player is a bonjwa or not, and by this rule, that player would no longer be bonjwa.
And how do you define the scope of "discussion"? Does someone have to write an article, or post a thread on a fansite? What if I'm walking down the street with my friend, and we have a convo:
Me: Hey, I don't think Nada is/was a bonjwa, lets discuss Friend: k, let's discuss. Well I think he is. But now that we've discussed it, he's not a bonjwa anymore by definition. Congrats, you've just single handedly stripped Nada of bonjwa status. Me: Yep, cool.
If we take a broader view of the Bonjwa term you can use this rule: If there is a discussion if a player is bonjwa or not, the player in question is not bonjwa.
Bonjwa is an ugly word anyways.
I see that rule quoted in this thread but that's a pretty bad rule tbh. It's not rigorous at all. Titles, records, rivalries, finals appearances, etc. are much better measures of bonjwa status. In fact, instead of being a "broader" view, this is possibly the narrowest of all bonjwa definitions.
If a player is dominant and commonly accepted to be a bonjwa, all it would take is someone to open a thread discussing whether that player is a bonjwa or not, and by this rule, that player would no longer be bonjwa.
And how do you define the scope of "discussion"? Does someone have to write an article, or post a thread on a fansite? What if I'm walking down the street with my friend, and we have a convo:
Me: Hey, I don't think Nada is/was a bonjwa, lets discuss Friend: k, let's discuss. Well I think he is. But now that we've discussed it, he's not a bonjwa anymore by definition. Congrats, you've just single handedly stripped Nada of bonjwa status. Me: Yep, cool.
Pretty retarded.
Umm...no. The idea isn't that there is literally *a* conversation, but that there is a dispute, a lack of consensus, debate. Theres a few people who say jaedong is bonjwa. Most dont. Hence he is not. There is complete consensus for nada/oov/boxer/savior, even if one random twit opens a thread and begs to differ...
On November 08 2009 01:33 dukethegold wrote: Well, Bisu v.s. Savior MSL final was before my time. I got around the scene after Bisu already lost to Mind in the MSL final. However, one thing that I noticed is that some of the old posts already addressed Bisu as a bonjwa. Seemed to me that prior to Bisu v.s. Mind and Bisu dropped out of that OSL after attaining his third MSL, Bisu was being seriously considered as a bonjwa by some of the community back then.
I am not really clear on that on. Confirm?
At the time, it seemed only natural. There was more of a feeling that bonjwa was something 'passed on' from one player to another, and Bisu seemed to have taken the mojo from Savior and wasn't going to look back. Everything seemed right, but then Bisu's results slowed and Flash and Jaedong took fire. Now the situation is all crazy complicated.
What is TL's obssession with labelling players and if its correct or not? There were some great players, now there are some great players now. Thats it.
If Jaedong had won OSL, MSL and Proleague last season, he would set some good fundaments for new Bonjwa reign. Without this - sorry, he is just the best player at the moment.
On November 07 2009 17:24 StylishVODs wrote: What, did he get to 5 consecutive MSL finals? good read, pictures not working for me though
Yes, this insane fact is forgotten sometimes nowadays!
Also not losing a BoX for basically an entire year.
But with Savior I'll always remember the MSL semifinals against Mind, where he lost 3-2. It was his last gasp and Mind was better, but he still could have won, and faced Bisu in what would have been probably the biggest final in SC history. I think he would have lost to Bisu but you never know.
Once he lost to Mind there it seemed clear that it was over. In my mind it'll always be the one that got away. The one that could have been...
i don't even like to think about that.. really depressing.
On November 08 2009 04:43 kvilx wrote: If Jaedong had won OSL, MSL and Proleague last season, he would set some good fundaments for new Bonjwa reign. Without this - sorry, he is just the best player at the moment.
lol you do realize only one player won OSL/MSL at once, let alone a 5 round PL with it with a completely shitty back bone team line, if he actually did what you said,Jaedong wouldnt only be bonjwa, he would be the greatest progamer of all time without any denial.
If we take a broader view of the Bonjwa term you can use this rule: If there is a discussion if a player is bonjwa or not, the player in question is not bonjwa.
Bonjwa is an ugly word anyways.
I see that rule quoted in this thread but that's a pretty bad rule tbh. It's not rigorous at all. Titles, records, rivalries, finals appearances, etc. are much better measures of bonjwa status. In fact, instead of being a "broader" view, this is possibly the narrowest of all bonjwa definitions.
If a player is dominant and commonly accepted to be a bonjwa, all it would take is someone to open a thread discussing whether that player is a bonjwa or not, and by this rule, that player would no longer be bonjwa.
And how do you define the scope of "discussion"? Does someone have to write an article, or post a thread on a fansite? What if I'm walking down the street with my friend, and we have a convo:
Me: Hey, I don't think Nada is/was a bonjwa, lets discuss Friend: k, let's discuss. Well I think he is. But now that we've discussed it, he's not a bonjwa anymore by definition. Congrats, you've just single handedly stripped Nada of bonjwa status. Me: Yep, cool.
Pretty retarded.
Umm...no. The idea isn't that there is literally *a* conversation, but that there is a dispute, a lack of consensus, debate. Theres a few people who say jaedong is bonjwa. Most dont. Hence he is not.
I understand the idea but you've missed my point. My point is this definition of bonjwa sucks because it's not rigorous, it needs further defining just to be applied and used. You can't possibly defend the original statement
If there is a discussion if a player is bonjwa or not, the player in question is not bonjwa.
What you've done here is add your own interpretation... "a" conversation is no longer enough, there has to be a "dispute" or "lack of consensus." And how many conversations is enough? Are 100 conversations enough, but 99 conversations not? How you find out if there is lack of consensus? Is a poll of teamliquid enough, or a poll of all SC fansites, or a poll of all players who have ever heard of Starcraft?
Bottom line:
If there is a discussion if a player is bonjwa or not, the player in question is not bonjwa.
is incredibly simplistic. Any serious bonjwa discussion needs to clearly define the criteria.
Just in case you're still confused, here's an example of a clear criteria: "Must have won an OSL title at some point in career."
Here's an example of muddied criteria that have always plagued bonjwa discussions: "must be dominant", "must have a consensus."
There is complete consensus for nada/oov/boxer/savior, even if one random twit opens a thread and begs to differ...
Good self-defeating sentence. If even ONE random twit opens a thread to differ, then there is not a complete consensus.
Again, the problem with bonjwa discussions is that people can't agree on the definition or the criteria, which is pretty subjective. You're trying to defend a ridiculous statement and you can't even get your own criteria straight.
On November 08 2009 04:43 kvilx wrote: If Jaedong had won OSL, MSL and Proleague last season, he would set some good fundaments for new Bonjwa reign. Without this - sorry, he is just the best player at the moment.
lol you do realize only one player won OSL/MSL at once, let alone a 5 round PL with it with a completely shitty back bone team line, if he actually did what you said,Jaedong wouldnt only be bonjwa, he would be the greatest progamer of all time without any denial.
Yes I do. Yet, he lost BO5 against Calm after straight-up games. I'm almost 100% sure he's been cutting sleep before MSL Semis; he looked like zombie.
Speaking about PL finals, he lost two games due to faulty gameplans and one because of cheese. Bonjwas don't mess up their strats. Bonjwas have that spider-sense to avoid being rushed (Savior is perfect example). Jaedong is great, and I'm not trying to take anything from him, but being Bonjwa is something else than what he is. Something more.
On November 08 2009 04:43 kvilx wrote: If Jaedong had won OSL, MSL and Proleague last season, he would set some good fundaments for new Bonjwa reign. Without this - sorry, he is just the best player at the moment.
lol you do realize only one player won OSL/MSL at once, let alone a 5 round PL with it with a completely shitty back bone team line, if he actually did what you said,Jaedong wouldnt only be bonjwa, he would be the greatest progamer of all time without any denial.
Yes I do. Yet, he lost BO5 against Calm after straight-up games. I'm almost 100% sure he's been cutting sleep before MSL Semis; he looked like zombie.
Speaking about PL finals, he lost two games due to faulty gameplans and one because of cheese. Bonjwas don't mess up their strats. Bonjwas have that spider-sense to avoid being rushed (Savior is perfect example). Jaedong is great, and I'm not trying to take anything from him, but being Bonjwa is something else than what he is. Something more.
I love how you seem to regard a Bonjwa as some sort of religious deity that is beyond all human comprehension.
Why are people still discussing whether Bisu or Jaedong is bonjwa. I thought that was a bannable offence now.
If anything, this article should have made you realize that it wasn't just sAviOr's skill, but also the circumstances of the Zerg race that elevated him to bonjwa status.
On November 08 2009 04:43 kvilx wrote: If Jaedong had won OSL, MSL and Proleague last season, he would set some good fundaments for new Bonjwa reign. Without this - sorry, he is just the best player at the moment.
lol you do realize only one player won OSL/MSL at once, let alone a 5 round PL with it with a completely shitty back bone team line, if he actually did what you said,Jaedong wouldnt only be bonjwa, he would be the greatest progamer of all time without any denial.
Yes I do. Yet, he lost BO5 against Calm after straight-up games. I'm almost 100% sure he's been cutting sleep before MSL Semis; he looked like zombie.
Speaking about PL finals, he lost two games due to faulty gameplans and one because of cheese. Bonjwas don't mess up their strats. Bonjwas have that spider-sense to avoid being rushed (Savior is perfect example). Jaedong is great, and I'm not trying to take anything from him, but being Bonjwa is something else than what he is. Something more.
Watch fantasy vs JD game 5 of the OSL finals and say JD doesn't have that sense.
PL wasn't that big back then so Bonjwas had less chances of getting cheesed.
On November 08 2009 04:43 kvilx wrote: If Jaedong had won OSL, MSL and Proleague last season, he would set some good fundaments for new Bonjwa reign. Without this - sorry, he is just the best player at the moment.
lol you do realize only one player won OSL/MSL at once, let alone a 5 round PL with it with a completely shitty back bone team line, if he actually did what you said,Jaedong wouldnt only be bonjwa, he would be the greatest progamer of all time without any denial.
Yes I do. Yet, he lost BO5 against Calm after straight-up games. I'm almost 100% sure he's been cutting sleep before MSL Semis; he looked like zombie.
Speaking about PL finals, he lost two games due to faulty gameplans and one because of cheese. Bonjwas don't mess up their strats. Bonjwas have that spider-sense to avoid being rushed (Savior is perfect example). Jaedong is great, and I'm not trying to take anything from him, but being Bonjwa is something else than what he is. Something more.
Watch fantasy vs JD game 5 of the OSL finals and say JD doesn't have that sense.
PL wasn't that big back then so Bonjwas had less chances of getting cheesed.
How is sliding a Vulture through Temples a cheese? I agree it was a great move to intercept Terran there, but Fantasy really had nothing prepared for this final except his sneaky Valkyrie/Mech style, which Jaedong solved after losing first two games.
On November 07 2009 20:07 darktreb wrote: I love how you did an analysis of "multiple game matches" and didn't include BO3's
The analysis was nice but come on - BO3 is part of the deal here
If Bo3s were so important, why did the poster claim Jaedong had never beaten Bisu in a 'multiple game match'? Jaedong beat him 2-0 during Arena MSL.
Are you serious? JD didn't play a BO3 against Bisu in Arena. He beat him in twice in the group stages, with a loss to (I believe) Hwasin in between, then faced Bisu again in the 5th game after Bisu finished trouncing Frozean or somebody.
Beating somebody twice as part of the winner vs winner, loser vs loser, final match format that the MSL uses is NOT a BoX.
On November 07 2009 20:07 darktreb wrote: I love how you did an analysis of "multiple game matches" and didn't include BO3's
The analysis was nice but come on - BO3 is part of the deal here
If Bo3s were so important, why did the poster claim Jaedong had never beaten Bisu in a 'multiple game match'? Jaedong beat him 2-0 during Arena MSL.
Are you serious? JD didn't play a BO3 against Bisu in Arena. He beat him in twice in the group stages, with a loss to (I believe) Hwasin in between, then faced Bisu again in the 5th game after Bisu finished trouncing Frozean or somebody.
Beating somebody twice as part of the winner vs winner, loser vs loser, final match format that the MSL uses is NOT a BoX.
My mistake, though I still fail to see how this is even remotely something worth arguing over. It's like back when people claimed Flash > Jaedong because 2 bo3s were supposedly more telling than a bo5. Somehow, I don't think Savior was considered bonjwa due to his record in bo3 matches, nor do I think most people really remember many of them in the first place. On the other hand, I can recall almost every part of the bo5s vs Midas, Iris, oov, and Nal_ra...
On November 07 2009 20:07 darktreb wrote: I love how you did an analysis of "multiple game matches" and didn't include BO3's
The analysis was nice but come on - BO3 is part of the deal here
If Bo3s were so important, why did the poster claim Jaedong had never beaten Bisu in a 'multiple game match'? Jaedong beat him 2-0 during Arena MSL.
Are you serious? JD didn't play a BO3 against Bisu in Arena. He beat him in twice in the group stages, with a loss to (I believe) Hwasin in between, then faced Bisu again in the 5th game after Bisu finished trouncing Frozean or somebody.
Beating somebody twice as part of the winner vs winner, loser vs loser, final match format that the MSL uses is NOT a BoX.
My mistake, though I still fail to see how this is even remotely something worth arguing over. It's like back when people claimed Flash > Jaedong because 2 bo3s were supposedly more telling than a bo5. Somehow, I don't think Savior was considered bonjwa due to his record in bo3 matches, nor do I think most people really remember many of them in the first place. On the other hand, I can recall almost every part of the bo5s vs Midas, Iris, oov, and Nal_ra...
My point is just BO3's are gut checks too, and Savior was completely flawless in them as well for a year. When you look at just BO5's, everyone looks pretty even but throw in BO3's, where JD/Flash/Bisu have all had a few speedbumps, and it's remarkable that Savior never lost in those situations.
On November 07 2009 20:07 darktreb wrote: I love how you did an analysis of "multiple game matches" and didn't include BO3's
The analysis was nice but come on - BO3 is part of the deal here
If Bo3s were so important, why did the poster claim Jaedong had never beaten Bisu in a 'multiple game match'? Jaedong beat him 2-0 during Arena MSL.
Are you serious? JD didn't play a BO3 against Bisu in Arena. He beat him in twice in the group stages, with a loss to (I believe) Hwasin in between, then faced Bisu again in the 5th game after Bisu finished trouncing Frozean or somebody.
Beating somebody twice as part of the winner vs winner, loser vs loser, final match format that the MSL uses is NOT a BoX.
My mistake, though I still fail to see how this is even remotely something worth arguing over. It's like back when people claimed Flash > Jaedong because 2 bo3s were supposedly more telling than a bo5. Somehow, I don't think Savior was considered bonjwa due to his record in bo3 matches, nor do I think most people really remember many of them in the first place. On the other hand, I can recall almost every part of the bo5s vs Midas, Iris, oov, and Nal_ra...
My point is just BO3's are gut checks too, and Savior was completely flawless in them as well for a year. When you look at just BO5's, everyone looks pretty even but throw in BO3's, where JD/Flash/Bisu have all had a few speedbumps, and it's remarkable that Savior never lost in those situations.
you guys are silly. until jaedong crushes bisu and flash repeatedly (or vice-versa), so there is not just an even win-rate between them, then no-one is a bonjwa. to be a bonjwa you have to be the best. bonjwa does not just mean winning leagues. it means beating the OTHER best players consistently.
On November 08 2009 11:21 nayumi wrote: It's amazing how once the word "bonjwa" is mentioned, it soon turns into a "bisu or jaedong for bonjwa" debate. Just amazing.
On November 08 2009 04:43 kvilx wrote: If Jaedong had won OSL, MSL and Proleague last season, he would set some good fundaments for new Bonjwa reign. Without this - sorry, he is just the best player at the moment.
lol you do realize only one player won OSL/MSL at once, let alone a 5 round PL with it with a completely shitty back bone team line, if he actually did what you said,Jaedong wouldnt only be bonjwa, he would be the greatest progamer of all time without any denial.
Ironically, as this thread points out, SKT-1 was more dependent on Bisu last season than OZ was dependent on JD, as ironic as that may be.
And also, the greatest achievement in the history of e-sports would be NaDa's Gold Grand Slam, winning three starleagues in "the same season" (at the time there was a third league, which later went bankrupt, but unlike GOM it was KeSPA sanctioned). Note that I put "same season" in quotes because back then gaming wasn't organized quite like it is today. Those three tournaments were kind of staggered a bit, but don't think for a second that makes it less of an accomplishment.
No one will ever surpass NaDa as the greatest player in this game. 10 OSL/MSL finals appearances, 6 of which were first place finishes, and numerous other prestigious achievements.
i dont get how people keep bringing up bisu for the bonjwa discussion, he isnt even close. savior is the last and likely stay that way. with bisu, you cant even put him in a bo3 against a mediocre zerg without getting curbstomped. same thing with jaedong, he might be in a minislump and lose some bo3 or qualification round to the likes of backho.
when i think of savior, i think of his bo5 against oov on ride of valkyries, where oov bunker rushes and savior proceeds to mine out that back entrance mineral, surround the bunker with lings while saving his hatchery in the reds.
On November 09 2009 03:28 piratebay wrote: i dont get how people keep bringing up bisu for the bonjwa discussion, he isnt even close. savior is the last and likely stay that way. with bisu, you cant even put him in a bo3 against a mediocre zerg without getting curbstomped. same thing with jaedong, he might be in a minislump and lose some bo3 or qualification round to the likes of backho.
when i think of savior, i think of his bo5 against oov on ride of valkyries, where oov bunker rushes and savior proceeds to mine out that back entrance mineral, surround the bunker with lings while saving his hatchery in the reds.
savior was a god.
I can accept Jaedong nor Bisu will be called bonjwa, but it's more that they have competition to prevent them from dominating, not dropping random Bo3s to scrubs. Because Savior did too, but everyone overlooks it, and both Bisu and Jaedong have done just as jaw-dropping plays.
Also, when savior did lose, the masses did not cry "slump!". I think it was more a thing of the times, though. Nowadays, every single time Jaedong or Flash lose a game or two it's a slump, even though they've carried consistent near-70% win rates for a couple years now.
On November 09 2009 03:28 piratebay wrote: i dont get how people keep bringing up bisu for the bonjwa discussion, he isnt even close.
It was more that he was assumed to take the role from Savior after their fateful encounter and his subsequent hot streak. Of course, he's been behind Jaedong and even Flash for a while now...
On November 08 2009 11:21 nayumi wrote: It's amazing how once the word "bonjwa" is mentioned, it soon turns into a "bisu or jaedong for bonjwa" debate. Just amazing.
You'll note the original translated thread mentions Jaedong and Bisu in it, presumably under the argument that it's hard to be a bonjwa unless you're lucky enough to face your rivals often.
this is why movie is on the path of bonjwa-dom - surprised everyone by ahead in vs jaedong 1v1s and almost eliminating him from the previous msl - came at the dark age of protoss - overcame the zerg (instead of the terran) hes been owning zerg players left and right, even when he loses (calm) 4 and 5 are yet to come
On November 09 2009 03:28 piratebay wrote: i dont get how people keep bringing up bisu for the bonjwa discussion, he isnt even close. savior is the last and likely stay that way. with bisu, you cant even put him in a bo3 against a mediocre zerg without getting curbstomped. same thing with jaedong, he might be in a minislump and lose some bo3 or qualification round to the likes of backho.
when i think of savior, i think of his bo5 against oov on ride of valkyries, where oov bunker rushes and savior proceeds to mine out that back entrance mineral, surround the bunker with lings while saving his hatchery in the reds.
savior was a god.
I can accept Jaedong nor Bisu will be called bonjwa, but it's more that they have competition to prevent them from dominating, not dropping random Bo3s to scrubs. Because Savior did too, but everyone overlooks it, and both Bisu and Jaedong have done just as jaw-dropping plays.
savior didn't drop televised bo3s to scrubs. sure he may have lost in a qualifier, but nobody ever saw that so its basically irrelevant. have you even watched savior in his prime? his jaw-dropping epicness was, for his time, far more impressing than anything JD or bisu have done (cept bisu killing savior 3-0 in MSL finals). Seriously, the most jaw-dropping and epic thing that bisu has done is winning against Savior the bonjwa in a clean sweep. I guess that says alot about the level of saviors epicness at that time.
On November 09 2009 03:28 piratebay wrote: i dont get how people keep bringing up bisu for the bonjwa discussion, he isnt even close. savior is the last and likely stay that way. with bisu, you cant even put him in a bo3 against a mediocre zerg without getting curbstomped. same thing with jaedong, he might be in a minislump and lose some bo3 or qualification round to the likes of backho.
when i think of savior, i think of his bo5 against oov on ride of valkyries, where oov bunker rushes and savior proceeds to mine out that back entrance mineral, surround the bunker with lings while saving his hatchery in the reds.
savior was a god.
I can accept Jaedong nor Bisu will be called bonjwa, but it's more that they have competition to prevent them from dominating, not dropping random Bo3s to scrubs. Because Savior did too, but everyone overlooks it, and both Bisu and Jaedong have done just as jaw-dropping plays.
savior didn't drop televised bo3s to scrubs. sure he may have lost in a qualifier, but nobody ever saw that so its basically irrelevant. have you even watched savior in his prime? his jaw-dropping epicness was, for his time, far more impressing than anything JD or bisu have done (cept bisu killing savior 3-0 in MSL finals). Seriously, the most jaw-dropping and epic thing that bisu has done is winning against Savior the bonjwa in a clean sweep. I guess that says alot about the level of saviors epicness at that time.
"More impressive" is completely subjective. And why is losing in qualifiers basically irrelevant?
How soon people forget how close Savior was to being eliminated from pringles. If Midas hadn't choked history would have been different.
so what? in fact it is a big part of his legacy. he came close to elimination several times (game 5 vs iris he was way closer imo) but he ALWAYS managed to clutch it out.
On November 09 2009 03:28 piratebay wrote: i dont get how people keep bringing up bisu for the bonjwa discussion, he isnt even close. savior is the last and likely stay that way. with bisu, you cant even put him in a bo3 against a mediocre zerg without getting curbstomped. same thing with jaedong, he might be in a minislump and lose some bo3 or qualification round to the likes of backho.
when i think of savior, i think of his bo5 against oov on ride of valkyries, where oov bunker rushes and savior proceeds to mine out that back entrance mineral, surround the bunker with lings while saving his hatchery in the reds.
savior was a god.
I can accept Jaedong nor Bisu will be called bonjwa, but it's more that they have competition to prevent them from dominating, not dropping random Bo3s to scrubs. Because Savior did too, but everyone overlooks it, and both Bisu and Jaedong have done just as jaw-dropping plays.
savior didn't drop televised bo3s to scrubs. sure he may have lost in a qualifier, but nobody ever saw that so its basically irrelevant. have you even watched savior in his prime? his jaw-dropping epicness was, for his time, far more impressing than anything JD or bisu have done (cept bisu killing savior 3-0 in MSL finals). Seriously, the most jaw-dropping and epic thing that bisu has done is winning against Savior the bonjwa in a clean sweep. I guess that says alot about the level of saviors epicness at that time.
"More impressive" is completely subjective. And why is losing in qualifiers basically irrelevant?
yes it is, but seeing that many obviously feel the same, it becomes intersubjective. if his performance wasn't more impressive on an intersubjective basis than JD or Bisus, how come he is widely considered as a bonjwa while bisu and JD are not? How come he was referred to as a "god" by the korean commentators while bisu and JD are not? How come his dominance created a new term for a dominant progamer, while bisus and JDs have not? Even if you don't like savior, you gotta admit that on an intersubjective basis, he had the most impressing rule of SC ever.
A lot of that has to do with his skill, but a lot of that is also nostalgia. He is bonjwa and god (Jaedong has been referred as such before, see his finals v. Fantasy) because he didn't have someone at his level during his reign. But that has no bearing on whether he is more impressive than the trifecta of today. His dominance created a new term for the same reason, he stood above the rest, but again, this has no bearing comparing to contemporary players.
Uh, I have no idea why losing Bo3s in qualifiers dont count. I know it's different, but there's no good argument for disregarding them.
I'm going to throw some wild speculation out there, because someone mentioned the idea of a Protoss bonjwa.
Many have already established that Bisu simply hasn't had enough titles or a long enough consecutive period of dominance to truly be considered a bonjwa.
But in my very humble opinion, if Stork ever decided to practice hardcore and pick up his game, he definitely has the potential of becoming a Protoss bonjwa. He was even pegged by Boxer himself to be the next big thing.
While Stork lacks the flair of Bisu's harassment oriented style, Stork is known for extremely stellar management when he plays seriously.
TLPD states that he is 7-7 against Jaedong. Bisu by comparison is 6-7. Stork is also 9-9 against Bisu and 8-4 against Flash. His record clearly shows that he can go toe to toe with the best of the best.
However, this is all speculation as stated. But I think Stork has a lot of potential.
How soon people forget how close Savior was to being eliminated from pringles. If Midas hadn't choked history would have been different.
so what? in fact it is a big part of his legacy. he came close to elimination several times (game 5 vs iris he was way closer imo) but he ALWAYS managed to clutch it out.
People have no idea about saviors reign man =/ Jaedong probably had a better win ratio over the past two OSLs than Savior ever did. I mean, when was the last time Jaedong went to the 5th game in a bo5? Savior was taken there many many times.
How soon people forget how close Savior was to being eliminated from pringles. If Midas hadn't choked history would have been different.
so what? in fact it is a big part of his legacy. he came close to elimination several times (game 5 vs iris he was way closer imo) but he ALWAYS managed to clutch it out.
People have no idea about saviors reign man =/ Jaedong probably had a better win ratio over the past two OSLs than Savior ever did. I mean, when was the last time Jaedong went to the 5th game in a bo5? Savior was taken there many many times.
yeah I dont really understand whats the point your trying to make though. Just to clarify, imo it is a big part of his legacy that he won in such a close fashion so many times. It is more impressing, enjoyable and memorable to me if someone wins in a nailbiter final set than 3-1s his finals opponent with relative ease.
On November 10 2009 00:02 Avidkeystamper wrote: A lot of that has to do with his skill, but a lot of that is also nostalgia. He is bonjwa and god (Jaedong has been referred as such before, see his finals v. Fantasy) because he didn't have someone at his level during his reign. But that has no bearing on whether he is more impressive than the trifecta of today. His dominance created a new term for the same reason, he stood above the rest, but again, this has no bearing comparing to contemporary players.
Uh, I have no idea why losing Bo3s in qualifiers dont count. I know it's different, but there's no good argument for disregarding them.
I was saying that in relation to his time, he is the most impressing. Let me simplify it for you.
Player A is better than everbody else for a long period of time. He dominates everybody. Player B is better than everybody BUT player C and D for a long period of time. He dominates everybody except player C and D.
Which is more impressive? Not considering the factor time is like saying a 10th grader is more impressive in mathematics than Aristoteles because he knows formulas and can therefore calculate things that Aristoteles couldn't. I think your mixing up impressivenes and raw skill. What the 10th grader can calculate is based on more skill than what aristoteles could. But I don't think anybody would argue what the 10th grader does is more impressive than what aristoteles did.
How soon people forget how close Savior was to being eliminated from pringles. If Midas hadn't choked history would have been different.
so what? in fact it is a big part of his legacy. he came close to elimination several times (game 5 vs iris he was way closer imo) but he ALWAYS managed to clutch it out.
People have no idea about saviors reign man =/ Jaedong probably had a better win ratio over the past two OSLs than Savior ever did. I mean, when was the last time Jaedong went to the 5th game in a bo5? Savior was taken there many many times.
yeah I dont really understand whats the point your trying to make though. Just to clarify, imo it is a big part of his legacy that he won in such a close fashion so many times. It is more impressing, enjoyable and memorable to me if someone wins in a nailbiter final set than 3-1s his finals opponent with relative ease.
But that's not the godlike savior destroyed everyone without moving a muscle that everyone has in their minds People just expect the next "bonjwa" to have the same presence as Savior did, which isn't the same as every bonjwa before him. For instance, Nada was ridiculously dominant - pretty much the same as Jaedong. I mean, Nada was so ridiculously good that when he 3-0'd Reach people thought that Reach had been paid to throw the games.
Being based on more raw skill does not make the 10th grader more skillful than Aristotle. Difference between raw skill and what you have access to. I think Jaedong is more impressive because he's better at Starcraft, fairly logical.
On November 10 2009 00:27 Avidkeystamper wrote: Being based on more raw skill does not make the 10th grader more skillful than Aristotle. Difference between raw skill and what you have access to. I think Jaedong is more impressive because he's better at Starcraft, fairly logical.
And where is the difference in starcraft? JD had access to saviors games, but not vice versa. Just because we're only talking about a few years and not a cpl thousand years doesnt change the argument. Where on earth is the difference in saying "I think Jaedong is more impressive because he's better at Starcraft, fairly logical." to saying "I think a 10th grader is more impressive because he's better at math, fairly logical.". Agreeing with the first statement while denying the second is a logical contradiction man.
"Just because we're only talking about a few years and not a cpl thousand years doesnt change the argument." Yes it does, that would mean aristotle would have access to modern math too.
On November 10 2009 00:38 Avidkeystamper wrote: "Just because we're only talking about a few years and not a cpl thousand years doesnt change the argument." Yes it does, that would mean aristotle would have access to modern math too.
you do realize that math is pure logic on an abstractional basis and thus, aristotle had access to modern math just as much as everybody has access to everything in math that will ever be discovered?
On November 10 2009 00:27 Avidkeystamper wrote: Being based on more raw skill does not make the 10th grader more skillful than Aristotle. Difference between raw skill and what you have access to. I think Jaedong is more impressive because he's better at Starcraft, fairly logical.
And where is the difference in starcraft? JD had access to saviors games, but not vice versa. Just because we're only talking about a few years and not a cpl thousand years doesnt change the argument. Where on earth is the difference in saying "I think Jaedong is more impressive because he's better at Starcraft, fairly logical." to saying "I think a 10th grader is more impressive because he's better at math, fairly logical.". Agreeing with the first statement while denying the second is a logical contradiction man.
Because Jaedong isnt a friggin 10th grader, he is a Fields Medalist of the level of Paul Erdos, dont use ridiculously bad strawman arguments with huge loopholes
On November 10 2009 00:27 Avidkeystamper wrote: Being based on more raw skill does not make the 10th grader more skillful than Aristotle. Difference between raw skill and what you have access to. I think Jaedong is more impressive because he's better at Starcraft, fairly logical.
And where is the difference in starcraft? JD had access to saviors games, but not vice versa. Just because we're only talking about a few years and not a cpl thousand years doesnt change the argument. Where on earth is the difference in saying "I think Jaedong is more impressive because he's better at Starcraft, fairly logical." to saying "I think a 10th grader is more impressive because he's better at math, fairly logical.". Agreeing with the first statement while denying the second is a logical contradiction man.
Because Jaedong isnt a friggin 10th grader, he is a Fields Medalist of the level of Paul Erdos, dont use ridiculously bad strawman arguments with huge loopholes
ok then replace 10th grader with Paul Erdos or the last nobel prize winner for mathematics, I dont care. Ever heard of exaggerating in an argument to make the point clearer? Do you think Paul Erdos is more impressive than aristoteles? lulz
You guys and your debates. Math is not pure logic, beauty also counts. Lots of Einstein's work he pursued because he knew that the truth must be beautiful and simple.
On November 10 2009 00:27 Avidkeystamper wrote: Being based on more raw skill does not make the 10th grader more skillful than Aristotle. Difference between raw skill and what you have access to. I think Jaedong is more impressive because he's better at Starcraft, fairly logical.
And where is the difference in starcraft? JD had access to saviors games, but not vice versa. Just because we're only talking about a few years and not a cpl thousand years doesnt change the argument. Where on earth is the difference in saying "I think Jaedong is more impressive because he's better at Starcraft, fairly logical." to saying "I think a 10th grader is more impressive because he's better at math, fairly logical.". Agreeing with the first statement while denying the second is a logical contradiction man.
Because Jaedong isnt a friggin 10th grader, he is a Fields Medalist of the level of Paul Erdos, dont use ridiculously bad strawman arguments with huge loopholes
ok then replace 10th grader with Paul Erdos or the last nobel prize winner for mathematics, I dont care. Ever heard of exaggerating in an argument to make the point clearer? Do you think Paul Erdos is more impressive than aristoteles? lulz
lulz? Paul Erdos is one of the most accomplished mathematicians of all time and modern mathematics and the most prolific after Euler, yes I do think he is more skilled than Aristotle in mathematics which was the point you made. Also your argument with the 10th grader implies that JD is any other progamer zerg with arsenal of built up knowledge, this is a terrible arguement, because even with the arsenal of knowledge that he has he is still a lot more skillful than the norm progamer, thats why he is the best right now, your arguement implies that savior was way ahead of his time with no knowledge whileas JD is another guy that just followed the knowledge and just got a head start, this is true somewhat, but you are ignoring his relative skill level compared to the pack of progamers. Results speak for themselves, JD's stats mirror that of Savior in his prime and his accomplishments do that too,hell JD is so ahead of his pack that his mirror is the greatest mu in SC of all time, both have 4 medals and are very skilled players. Downgrading Jaedong with a strawman like that is meaningless considering Savior has current knowledge and he is doing nothing, why? He doesnt practice and his mentality is dead. And whether Jaedong will surpass him as he is already his equal or whether JD will become the greatest progamer of all time(matter of skill), only time will tell.
On November 10 2009 00:13 damenmofa wrote: yeah I dont really understand whats the point your trying to make though. Just to clarify, imo it is a big part of his legacy that he won in such a close fashion so many times. It is more impressing, enjoyable and memorable to me if someone wins in a nailbiter final set than 3-1s his finals opponent with relative ease.
Sure, it's impressive, but it's certainly not more dominating (and that's what a bonjwa does - dominates).
How soon people forget how close Savior was to being eliminated from pringles. If Midas hadn't choked history would have been different.
so what? in fact it is a big part of his legacy. he came close to elimination several times (game 5 vs iris he was way closer imo) but he ALWAYS managed to clutch it out.
People have no idea about saviors reign man =/ Jaedong probably had a better win ratio over the past two OSLs than Savior ever did. I mean, when was the last time Jaedong went to the 5th game in a bo5? Savior was taken there many many times.
This is what I was getting at earlier in the thread. Jaedong had the same win rate over his 4 starleague wins as Savior did during his, but Jaedong also played more than twice as many games in that time (and was under ridiculous practice-time pressure of the likes very few players have ever had to endure). Another interesting stat of note is that Jaedong made 10/11 starleagues in his time period, while Savior made 6/11 (that's 5 OSLs Savior didn't even make it into after he won his first MSL).
If you're basing bonjwa largely off stats and dominance, there's no reason to state Savior is one while Jaedong is not. The only real argument is that no one player seemed close to Savior at the time, while Jaedong has to deal with the Flash/Bisu argument. Emphasis on 'seemed' too, because there were still a lot of good players at the time Savior was dominating.
On November 10 2009 00:27 Avidkeystamper wrote: Being based on more raw skill does not make the 10th grader more skillful than Aristotle. Difference between raw skill and what you have access to. I think Jaedong is more impressive because he's better at Starcraft, fairly logical.
And where is the difference in starcraft? JD had access to saviors games, but not vice versa. Just because we're only talking about a few years and not a cpl thousand years doesnt change the argument. Where on earth is the difference in saying "I think Jaedong is more impressive because he's better at Starcraft, fairly logical." to saying "I think a 10th grader is more impressive because he's better at math, fairly logical.". Agreeing with the first statement while denying the second is a logical contradiction man.
Because Jaedong isnt a friggin 10th grader, he is a Fields Medalist of the level of Paul Erdos, dont use ridiculously bad strawman arguments with huge loopholes
ok then replace 10th grader with Paul Erdos or the last nobel prize winner for mathematics, I dont care. Ever heard of exaggerating in an argument to make the point clearer? Do you think Paul Erdos is more impressive than aristoteles? lulz
lulz? Paul Erdos is one of the most accomplished mathematicians of all time and modern mathematics and the most prolific after Euler, yes I do think he is more skilled than Aristotle in mathematics which was the point you made. Also your argument with the 10th grader implies that JD is any other progamer zerg with arsenal of built up knowledge, this is a terrible arguement, because even with the arsenal of knowledge that he has he is still a lot more skillful than the norm progamer, thats why he is the best right now, your arguement implies that savior was way ahead of his time with no knowledge whileas JD is another guy that just followed the knowledge and just got a head start, this is true somewhat, but you are ignoring his relative skill level compared to the pack of progamers. Results speak for themselves, JD's stats mirror that of Savior in his prime and his accomplishments do that too,hell JD is so ahead of his pack that his mirror is the greatest mu in SC of all time, both have 4 medals and are very skilled players. Downgrading Jaedong with a strawman like that is meaningless considering Savior has current knowledge and he is doing nothing, why? He doesnt practice and his mentality is dead. And whether Jaedong will surpass him as he is already his equal or whether JD will become the greatest progamer of all time(matter of skill), only time will tell.
Umm no? I explicitly stated that skilled =| impressive. I think that Erdos is more skilled as well, I just think that aristoteles is way more impressive.
regarding JD, i didn't mean to downgrade him in any form. I also think he is the best SC player of all time in terms of raw skill. But read what QibingZero wrote, JD has to deal with the flash/bisu argument, while savior was simply the undisputed king of his era.
On November 10 2009 00:27 Avidkeystamper wrote: Being based on more raw skill does not make the 10th grader more skillful than Aristotle. Difference between raw skill and what you have access to. I think Jaedong is more impressive because he's better at Starcraft, fairly logical.
And where is the difference in starcraft? JD had access to saviors games, but not vice versa. Just because we're only talking about a few years and not a cpl thousand years doesnt change the argument. Where on earth is the difference in saying "I think Jaedong is more impressive because he's better at Starcraft, fairly logical." to saying "I think a 10th grader is more impressive because he's better at math, fairly logical.". Agreeing with the first statement while denying the second is a logical contradiction man.
Because Jaedong isnt a friggin 10th grader, he is a Fields Medalist of the level of Paul Erdos, dont use ridiculously bad strawman arguments with huge loopholes
ok then replace 10th grader with Paul Erdos or the last nobel prize winner for mathematics, I dont care. Ever heard of exaggerating in an argument to make the point clearer? Do you think Paul Erdos is more impressive than aristoteles? lulz
lulz? Paul Erdos is one of the most accomplished mathematicians of all time and modern mathematics and the most prolific after Euler, yes I do think he is more skilled than Aristotle in mathematics which was the point you made. Also your argument with the 10th grader implies that JD is any other progamer zerg with arsenal of built up knowledge, this is a terrible arguement, because even with the arsenal of knowledge that he has he is still a lot more skillful than the norm progamer, thats why he is the best right now, your arguement implies that savior was way ahead of his time with no knowledge whileas JD is another guy that just followed the knowledge and just got a head start, this is true somewhat, but you are ignoring his relative skill level compared to the pack of progamers. Results speak for themselves, JD's stats mirror that of Savior in his prime and his accomplishments do that too,hell JD is so ahead of his pack that his mirror is the greatest mu in SC of all time, both have 4 medals and are very skilled players. Downgrading Jaedong with a strawman like that is meaningless considering Savior has current knowledge and he is doing nothing, why? He doesnt practice and his mentality is dead. And whether Jaedong will surpass him as he is already his equal or whether JD will become the greatest progamer of all time(matter of skill), only time will tell.
Umm no? I explicitly stated that skilled =| impressive. I think that Erdos is more skilled as well, I just think that aristoteles is way more impressive.
How so? What accomplishments did Aristotle make in math + what contributions did he make? Aristotle was a philosopher, and he was impressive at that, but in mathematics he does not top erdos or is more impressive than him. If you care to disagree just read Erdos's 1.5k published papers in mathematics.
Edit: sorry for derailing the thread, ill take this to pms if this continues
Here is the thing. Why does Jaedong even have to deal with the Flash/Bisu arguement when they keep failing and not reaching far enough in leagues to actually face him in bo3s/bo5s, if they dont put results and are theoretically equally skilled why does it even matter? Isnt results the only thing that matters? And so far in the past 2 years, only JD has been putting them up consistently out of the 3, Bisu/Flash can bash newbies in PL, but as long as Flash gets crushed by every S class ZvTer/PvTer he meets and as long as Bisu gets raped anally by zergs/his own cockiness, I dont see how they should matter at all.
i understand jaedong or flash aren't bonjwas but julayzerg ?! can't get why he isn't.. i can't get why bisu isn't when bisu is best toss player ever, he stopped saviors domination..
from this article i can just say (again) that term bonjwa is still very weird to everyone and everyone see it in different way
He lost to Saint last night. Jaedong loses to yet another mediocre Zerg.
As for whether or not his track record makes him a bonjwa, the problem is that he did not have a long enough period of time where he was SO MUCH BETTER than everyone else. The same issue is applicable to Bisu. While Jaedong has 3 OSLs and Bisu has 3 MSLs, neither of them completely dominated the scene for one consecutive period of time. Jaedong was struggling in the latter half of 2008 and Bisu really only dominated for part of 2007.
And as I believe Plexa pointed out, it was not just Savior being better than everyone else, it was his biggest opponents of the time not giving him enough run for his money. Midas choked multiple times against Savior, and if Midas had not lost to Savior in the ro8 of Shinhan 3, we might be singing a completely different tune.
Likewise if Savior had lost to Iris in the semifinals (which was REALLY close), we might be saying different things now.
But any way, the biggest issue is what the general consensus of the Korean fanbase is. As has been stated in the past - if you have to argue that someone is a bonjwa, then that player is not a bonjwa.
He lost to Saint last night. Jaedong loses to yet another mediocre Zerg.
As for whether or not his track record makes him a bonjwa, the problem is that he did not have a long enough period of time where he was SO MUCH BETTER than everyone else. The same issue is applicable to Bisu. While Jaedong has 3 OSLs and Bisu has 3 MSLs, neither of them completely dominated the scene for one consecutive period of time. Jaedong was struggling in the latter half of 2008 and Bisu really only dominated for part of 2007.
And as I believe Plexa pointed out, it was not just Savior being better than everyone else, it was his biggest opponents of the time not giving him enough run for his money. Midas choked multiple times against Savior, and if Midas had not lost to Savior in the ro8 of Shinhan 3, we might be singing a completely different tune.
Likewise if Savior had lost to Iris in the semifinals (which was REALLY close), we might be saying different things now.
But any way, the biggest issue is what the general consensus of the Korean fanbase is. As has been stated in the past - if you have to argue that someone is a bonjwa, then that player is not a bonjwa.
You're confusing yourself if you think Jaedong has ever truly been struggling since he won EVER 2007. This is what I'm talking about when I say people are so reactionary about players 'slumping' these days. If Flash or Jaedong lose a single freaking game everyone jumps all over them. This was a much rarer occurrence in the past, like when people knew that no matter how many losses Nada was taking, he would very much be in the next starleague playing well every time. Hell, few people even chided Bisu for his lackluster Proleague performance in Shinhan 07 and 08.
I mean, really. Have you watched Jaedong's recent games? Can you actually make an educated assessment of his skill level and why you think he's struggling? Details are what matter, not 'lololol Jaedong lost a game in Proleague, he's so bad'.
He lost to Saint last night. Jaedong loses to yet another mediocre Zerg.
As for whether or not his track record makes him a bonjwa, the problem is that he did not have a long enough period of time where he was SO MUCH BETTER than everyone else. The same issue is applicable to Bisu. While Jaedong has 3 OSLs and Bisu has 3 MSLs, neither of them completely dominated the scene for one consecutive period of time. Jaedong was struggling in the latter half of 2008 and Bisu really only dominated for part of 2007.
And as I believe Plexa pointed out, it was not just Savior being better than everyone else, it was his biggest opponents of the time not giving him enough run for his money. Midas choked multiple times against Savior, and if Midas had not lost to Savior in the ro8 of Shinhan 3, we might be singing a completely different tune.
Likewise if Savior had lost to Iris in the semifinals (which was REALLY close), we might be saying different things now.
But any way, the biggest issue is what the general consensus of the Korean fanbase is. As has been stated in the past - if you have to argue that someone is a bonjwa, then that player is not a bonjwa.
You're confusing yourself if you think Jaedong has ever truly been struggling since he won EVER 2007. This is what I'm talking about when I say people are so reactionary about players 'slumping' these days. If Flash or Jaedong lose a single freaking game everyone jumps all over them. This was a much rarer occurrence in the past, like when people knew that no matter how many losses Nada was taking, he would very much be in the next starleague playing well every time. Hell, few people even chided Bisu for his lackluster Proleague performance in Shinhan 07 and 08.
I mean, really. Have you watched Jaedong's recent games? Can you actually make an educated assessment of his skill level and why you think he's struggling? Details are what matter, not 'lololol Jaedong lost a game in Proleague, he's so bad'.
People didn't say Nada was a bonjwa in 2006 IIRC. Not to mention he wasn't doing too hot in the MSL from 2006-2007.
I'm confusing myself? Jaedong didn't qualify for two consecutive OSLs following Bacchus 08, and then he was knocked out of ClubDay MSL by Free, as well as GOMTV S2 by Tempest.
My argument isn't that Jaedong is bad. Jaedong is arguably the best player in the scene right now and one of the most skillful players on the scene. My argument is that he simply has not had a long enough period of unquestionable dominance to be called a bonjwa.
When did I say Jaedong was slumping? I simply said he wasn't bonjwa material.
He's 4-4 in his last 8 ZvZs. A 50% win ratio in his supposed best matchup is not what I call a bonjwa.
And yes, I have watched Jaedong's recent games. He lost matches to A level zergs despite using the exact same build order. He lost to Calm in a ZvZ bo5 in the Avalon MSL.
Jaedong has been struggling, not in the sense of "omg he's a b team scrub" struggling, but in the sense of "He doesn't dominate the scene enough to be called a bonjwa" sense of struggling. Yes, he won the Golden Mouse, but so did JulyZerg. Yes, he's clearly the best player in the scene right now, but players such as Xellos, Reach, and JulyZerg have all been best players at some point but they are not called bonjwas.
The general consensus is that it takes more than just raw skill to be considered a bonjwa. If you disagree with that, that's fine, but I am saying that people don't consider Jaedong a bonjwa because of many factors, most notably the extremely high level of competition in Korea right now.
Is it Jaedong's fault everyone is so good right now? No, but Jaedong is active in a time where everyone is extremely good, and as a result it is difficult for ANYONE to be called a bonjwa right now.
He lost to Saint last night. Jaedong loses to yet another mediocre Zerg.
As for whether or not his track record makes him a bonjwa, the problem is that he did not have a long enough period of time where he was SO MUCH BETTER than everyone else. The same issue is applicable to Bisu. While Jaedong has 3 OSLs and Bisu has 3 MSLs, neither of them completely dominated the scene for one consecutive period of time. Jaedong was struggling in the latter half of 2008 and Bisu really only dominated for part of 2007.
And as I believe Plexa pointed out, it was not just Savior being better than everyone else, it was his biggest opponents of the time not giving him enough run for his money. Midas choked multiple times against Savior, and if Midas had not lost to Savior in the ro8 of Shinhan 3, we might be singing a completely different tune.
Likewise if Savior had lost to Iris in the semifinals (which was REALLY close), we might be saying different things now.
But any way, the biggest issue is what the general consensus of the Korean fanbase is. As has been stated in the past - if you have to argue that someone is a bonjwa, then that player is not a bonjwa.
You're confusing yourself if you think Jaedong has ever truly been struggling since he won EVER 2007. This is what I'm talking about when I say people are so reactionary about players 'slumping' these days. If Flash or Jaedong lose a single freaking game everyone jumps all over them. This was a much rarer occurrence in the past, like when people knew that no matter how many losses Nada was taking, he would very much be in the next starleague playing well every time. Hell, few people even chided Bisu for his lackluster Proleague performance in Shinhan 07 and 08.
I mean, really. Have you watched Jaedong's recent games? Can you actually make an educated assessment of his skill level and why you think he's struggling? Details are what matter, not 'lololol Jaedong lost a game in Proleague, he's so bad'.
People didn't say Nada was a bonjwa in 2006 IIRC. Not to mention he wasn't doing too hot in the MSL from 2006-2007.
I'm confusing myself? Jaedong didn't qualify for two consecutive OSLs following Bacchus 08, and then he was knocked out of ClubDay MSL by Free, as well as GOMTV S2 by Tempest.
My argument isn't that Jaedong is bad. Jaedong is arguably the best player in the scene right now and one of the most skillful players on the scene. My argument is that he simply has not had a long enough period of unquestionable dominance to be called a bonjwa.
When did I say Jaedong was slumping? I simply said he wasn't bonjwa material.
He's 4-4 in his last 8 ZvZs. A 50% win ratio in his supposed best matchup is not what I call a bonjwa.
And yes, I have watched Jaedong's recent games. He lost matches to A level zergs despite using the exact same build order. He lost to Calm in a ZvZ bo5 in the Avalon MSL.
Jaedong has been struggling, not in the sense of "omg he's a b team scrub" struggling, but in the sense of "He doesn't dominate the scene enough to be called a bonjwa" sense of struggling. Yes, he won the Golden Mouse, but so did JulyZerg. Yes, he's clearly the best player in the scene right now, but players such as Xellos, Reach, and JulyZerg have all been best players at some point but they are not called bonjwas.
The general consensus is that it takes more than just raw skill to be considered a bonjwa. If you disagree with that, that's fine, but I am saying that people don't consider Jaedong a bonjwa because of many factors, most notably the extremely high level of competition in Korea right now.
Is it Jaedong's fault everyone is so good right now? No, but Jaedong is active in a time where everyone is extremely good, and as a result it is difficult for ANYONE to be called a bonjwa right now.
The only OSL Jaedong missed qualifying for was Incruit (an earlier post I made in this thread mentioned he's made 10 of 11 MSLs/OSLs)... and he followed that up with winning the next two OSLs. Hell, during the period from after GOMTV MSL 4 until the start of Batoo (his 'struggling'), he kept a 68% win rate and had an MSL silver, WCG Korea gold, and won the first GOM Classic. But wait, he was eliminated from tournaments by 'lesser' players - this never happened to any bonjwa, right? I mean it's not as if Savior himself missed 5 OSLs in a row during his bonjwa period or something. Oh wait, he did.
As for the Golden Mouse, both July and Nada took 4 years to accumulate their OSL titles, while Jaedong has won his three in less than 2 years. July is not bonjwa because although he won many titles, he never actually dominated everyone for very long. Nada simply was just extremely good for a very long time. The other players mentioned just never had the titles to compete - a factor Jaedong is not limited by.
And come on, I can find quite a few instances of any player ever going 50% or less in a period of time as short as that. Short-term statistics like that mean nothing. But hey, overall, you might be getting at something: Jaedong is down to 75% lifetime ZvZ. What kind of bonjwa couldn't hold 80%? Furthermore, he only won one of the two starleagues with that ZvZ - a real bonjwa would have won both, no matter how overworked!
Sadly that sarcasm isn't far from the standards people hold Jaedong to. Of course we're never going to have another bonjwa if the bar is set higher than it was for previous ones.
and comon guys, the argument of the article is that savior was the start and the end of the use of the word bonjwa to describe a dominant player. Part of it is when savior came to prominence (when zerg was considered a bad race). Part of it was beating the previous best T players (boxer oov nada). Part of it was that after savior, there was parity. Savior did more for the zerg game (and the zerg metagame, for what that's worth), than any other player, bar maybe (maybe!) yellow.
you can point to nada's accomplishments/style, you can point to oovs accomplishments/style, you can point to boxers accomplishments/style (in all 3 mus for all of them btw), and you can do the same for savior. The accomplishments part is key, as is the general feeling of the time, which cannot be captured in statistics
On November 11 2009 05:03 QibingZero wrote: And come on, I can find quite a few instances of any player ever going 50% or less in a period of time as short as that. Short-term statistics like that mean nothing. But hey, overall, you might be getting at something: Jaedong is down to 75% lifetime ZvZ. What kind of bonjwa couldn't hold 80%? Furthermore, he only won one of the two starleagues with that ZvZ - a real bonjwa would have won both, no matter how overworked!
Sadly that sarcasm isn't far from the standards people hold Jaedong to. Of course we're never going to have another bonjwa if the bar is set higher than it was for previous ones.
You say that sarcastically, but Savior had an 80% ZvP in 2006 and iloveoov had 27 consecutive wins in TvZ during his period of dominance.
Jaedong did not qualify for the OSL round of 16 in the EVER 2008 OSL. He lost to Casy, and then to Backho, kinda like how Bisu lost to Shine in the round of 36 of the EVER 2009 OSL. There's a reason why people don't call Bisu a bonjwa, and it's somewhat similar to why people don't call Jaedong a bonjwa.
It's not just a matter of accomplishments and skill. Savior was the first player that was really dubbed a bonjwa, even though he came on to the scene AFTER Nada's 3 OSL and 3 MSL titles. Nada is the most accomplished player of all time, yet Savior is the one most people associate the term bonjwa with. Why do you think that is?
That's not meant to be a rhetorical or sarcastic question. Why do we hear Ma Bonjwa, but never Lee Bonjwa (a term which could be used for Nada, Flash, AND Jaedong)? Why does someone with 3 MSLs and 1 OSL have such a greater reputation than someone who has the Golden Mouse, 3 MSL titles, AND was on top 30 Kespa for over 7 years?
Although I am not a big fan of the Savior fanboyism, even I have to admit it. Savior was THE bonjwa. He didn't popularize progaming, he didn't win 3 OSLs, his prominence on the scene began in late 2005 when players like Boxer and iloveoov have been around for so much longer.
But he is Ma Bonjwa. He popularized that term and caused fans to retroactively label Boxer, Nada, and iloveoov as such.
If you can reasonably tell me why the term bonjwa is more strongly associated with Savior than with the most accomplished player in Starcraft history, then you can tell me why Jaedong deserves to be called a bonjwa.
On November 11 2009 05:03 QibingZero wrote: And come on, I can find quite a few instances of any player ever going 50% or less in a period of time as short as that. Short-term statistics like that mean nothing. But hey, overall, you might be getting at something: Jaedong is down to 75% lifetime ZvZ. What kind of bonjwa couldn't hold 80%? Furthermore, he only won one of the two starleagues with that ZvZ - a real bonjwa would have won both, no matter how overworked!
Sadly that sarcasm isn't far from the standards people hold Jaedong to. Of course we're never going to have another bonjwa if the bar is set higher than it was for previous ones.
You say that sarcastically, but Savior had an 80% ZvP in 2006 and iloveoov had 27 consecutive wins in TvZ during his period of dominance.
Jaedong did not qualify for the OSL round of 16 in the EVER 2008 OSL. He lost to Casy, and then to Backho, kinda like how Bisu lost to Shine in the round of 36 of the EVER 2009 OSL. There's a reason why people don't call Bisu a bonjwa, and it's somewhat similar to why people don't call Jaedong a bonjwa.
It's not just a matter of accomplishments and skill. Savior was the first player that was really dubbed a bonjwa, even though he came on to the scene AFTER Nada's 3 OSL and 3 MSL titles. Nada is the most accomplished player of all time, yet Savior is the one most people associate the term bonjwa with. Why do you think that is?
That's not meant to be a rhetorical or sarcastic question. Why do we hear Ma Bonjwa, but never Lee Bonjwa (a term which could be used for Nada, Flash, AND Jaedong)? Why does someone with 3 MSLs and 1 OSL have such a greater reputation than someone who has the Golden Mouse, 3 MSL titles, AND was on top 30 Kespa for over 7 years?
Although I am not a big fan of the Savior fanboyism, even I have to admit it. Savior was THE bonjwa. He didn't popularize progaming, he didn't win 3 OSLs, his prominence on the scene began in late 2005 when players like Boxer and iloveoov have been around for so much longer.
But he is Ma Bonjwa. He popularized that term and caused fans to retroactively label Boxer, Nada, and iloveoov as such.
If you can reasonably tell me why the term bonjwa is more strongly associated with Savior than with the most accomplished player in Starcraft history, then you can tell me why Jaedong deserves to be called a bonjwa.
I'd just like to interrupt for a bit to say that if I had to pick an argument against Jaedong, I'd hear it from Kyo Yuy than anyone else.
Numbers and statistics alone never have been and never will be the deciding factor in whether or not someone is or isn't a bonjwa. Numbers only mean so much, and bonjwa-dom always has and always will require that special "something" . It's that "force" that can't be quantified or reflected in win-loss ratios, number of titles and ELO rankings. Look at the guy! It's not just about stats or number of titles. It's the aura. Feel the force. That's the difference. That's what made him THE O.G. Ma Bonjwa.
Wake me up when JD or Bisu or Flash can rock that hair with those shades and a suit like that. No poppped collars allowed in here. 'Til then any talk about how high their ELO is or how many wins and titles they have only matter in so much as they establish them as great BW players, and noone's arguing about that. It's all about the shades and the collar... bonjwa = PIMP !!
I love how everyone who has read a basic philosophy book or taken a semester of philosophy at uni immediately becomes a Master of it and starts quoting the crap they learnt. It's so unimpressive.
I think listening to ppl describe their own poker skill is the only thing more repugnant and false.
Not surprisingly, Savior fans wear rose tinted glasses for a lot of things. Heck, the whole bonjwa term, from what I've experienced at TL, is simply a way for a lot of people to put their favourite player on a pedestal; a method of idolization (very easily seen with Boxer and Savior).
On November 11 2009 12:52 MageKirby wrote: I'm curious though. Why is Flash never a real candidate in the bonjwa discussion? I only ever see jaedong and bisu. lol No terran love? xD
Besides crushing Stork 3-0 in the Bacchus OSL (?), he hasn't achieved anything special unlike the other two who have won a crapload of MSL (Bisu) and OSL (Jaedong) titles.
EPT![[image loading]](http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs116.snc3/16337_850114556459_842572_48868957_6007865_n.jpg)
BoxeR-OSL+MSL (3 Golds, 4 Silvers)
sAviOr-OSL+MSL (4 Golds, 2 Silvers)
Reach; some unknown person who ruined the show. The attribute wasn't that wrong considering the mood of the time. ![[image loading]](http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs116.snc3/16337_850114551469_842572_48868956_7066612_n.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs116.snc3/16337_850114546479_842572_48868955_6205631_n.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs050.snc3/13756_104311732918433_100000188199475_117127_4923566_n.jpg)
