With March 26th approaching, there's been a lot of speculation regarding BW HD. I, for one, am excited to see if Blizzard will actually announce something. At the minimum, I get to see TBLS duke it out in a small tournament so no potential loss and only gains from my perspective. There has been a lot of discussions in the community regarding what BW HD should be, so, I decided to write this blog to try and convey some of the many thoughts floating around. As it stands, there are (roughly) three different camps:
Camp #1 This camp's main focus is trying to maintain BW's qualities and attributes. Any un-necessary changes are not needed or wanted. This includes but is not limited to unit balance, 12 unit control group, pathing, no automine, no mbs, defender's advantage etc... BW is perfect as is after all. Updating the graphics, having a ladder, matchmaking and fixing compatibility are all important for the game but those are the only things that should be fixed. Quite an understandable position considering Blizzard's track record with StarCraft II.
Camp #2 This camp's focus is similar to the first camp with the sole exception being more leniency on some aspects of the game that can be fixed. As an example, bug changes such as goons getting stuck or the valkyrie sprite limit are things that some members in this camp are in favour of fixing. Let's not forget that some members also don't mind the option to change hotkeys as the player desires and a resolution change to bring the game into the 21th century. Again, gameplay, balance etc... should not be touched. Even within this group, there are some members who prefer only a limited amount of the changes outlined above so it's quite the diverse set of individuals.
Camp #3 This camp shifts greatly from either of the two previous camps. While the other camps focus on retaining the important aspects of BW, this camp actually wants Blizzard to play around with the HD version if they chose to deliver on one. While they may be ok with the pathing and unit balance, they want Blizzard to add automine, multiple building selection and change the unit group size. Their argument is that in this day and age, these 'archaic' features are terrible for the game and they should have the ability to enjoy the game without having them in place.
Personally, I fit mostly in camp #2. I think what players in camp #3 fail to recognize is that BW is what it is due to those features that they speak poorly off. Some of them, especially the unit control group limitation, were purposely put in place to allow players to think about their intentions and approach when moving their army around. After all, you can't just grab your whole army and move it across the map with several clicks.
Alongside the control group limitation, the lack of mbs and smart casting gives players the ability to differentiate themselves. With so many different things that have to be done and only so much APM, players have to chose how to use their limited APM. Attention starts playing a big role, becoming an extra feature. For me, I've always chosen to micro my units in battle, more so when my army is much larger, even at the cost of macro at home. As it stands, the skill difference between various players is huge and competition at the very top is extremely fierce:
Pro-players >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ICCup A >> B >> C >> D >>> new players
The skill ceiling in BW is extremely high due to all of these features and is not something that should be played with. This is something that I firmly believe in and I believe that the only way for someone to understand this viewpoint is to actually play the game for a long period of time. Things will make sense then. Other small point I want to make is that BW HD is supposed to be exactly as the name implies, BW in HD. That's the expectation and reality should reflect this!
Differing Stance: I also believe camp #1 fails to recognize some things. As mentioned, I'm all up for preserving BW and you can tell I love the game from all the BW blogs that I write but trying to argue against bug fixes such as dragoons getting stuck or the sprite limitation is just plain silly. Same goes for the ability to change hotkeys, especially when you consider that different languages have different hotkeys already so it's not like the game is asking all players to use the same buttons. These changes are minor and provide a more welcoming environment for new players.
Resolution change is a bigger issue imo. If the resolution is changed without taking the units into account, it's definitely the bad route to go. Spotting drops, flanks, macro etc... will all be affected negatively. That doesn't even include small micro tricks such as targeting mines with goons manually which would be difficult to do when they become so small. However, if the ratio is maintained, then I feel that this change can be beneficial to the game. The impact can only be assessed after the fact but I don't think it'll be as negative as some portray it.
Pretty much it for me. I do hope that this small blog provided some information for anyone interested in the ongoing BW HD debates. Vote in the poll and feel free to share your thoughts below!
One big point of contention could be that the game will either have to deviate from the 800x600 screen size (Because technology is moving away from the 4:3 aspect ratio) or have black bars on the sides of the screen or will be in a tiny window. It'll be interesting to see what happens with that.
On March 25 2017 09:05 ninazerg wrote: One big point of contention could be that the game will either have to deviate from the 800x600 screen size (Because technology is moving away from the 4:3 aspect ratio) or have black bars on the sides of the screen or will be in a tiny window. It'll be interesting to see what happens with that.
agree, I play with the black bars, doesn't really affect my game at all.
On March 25 2017 10:16 fearthequeen wrote: Camp 1 for sure. I find it comical that Blizzard wants to go tinkering with BW at this point...
While I agree, do you really think fixing that goon bug, valkyrie spire limit and giving the option to change hotkeys really a bad idea? Assume that Blizzard can fix that stuff without messing up the pathing or anything else.
i would have to say yes it's a bad idea. im the stickler for old BW keep as is. the goons sticking and sprite lims are what make it what it is. a late BC switch tvt after sprite lim reach results in you not going for valks which makes the game what it is. you have to come up with more clever ways to rid the BC count. if you change sprite lim you just make vlaks and your tvt game over. as for the hot key option, seeing as other langs already change hotkeys. go for it. it's irrelevant. sure itll make game "easier" for others but if you are reluctant to change hotkeys for any reason you have no room to bitch about hotkeys.People love BW for some reason. that's why it's not dead yet. so why even try to change one thing?
On March 25 2017 12:36 JacktheTerr wrote: i would have to say yes it's a bad idea. im the stickler for old BW keep as is. the goons sticking and sprite lims are what make it what it is. a late BC switch tvt after sprite lim reach results in you not going for valks which makes the game what it is. you have to come up with more clever ways to rid the BC count. if you change sprite lim you just make vlaks and your tvt game over. as for the hot key option, seeing as other langs already change hotkeys. go for it. it's irrelevant. sure itll make game "easier" for others but if you are reluctant to change hotkeys for any reason you have no room to bitch about hotkeys.People love BW for some reason. that's why it's not dead yet. so why even try to change one thing?
It would actually be really useful in UMS games for the game engine to have slight changes so the map max doesn't stop spells n' stuff from happening.
while that remains true in every aspect, I feel like the majority of the community that cares about the changes to be made aren't referring to UMS. which my previous statement was premised upon.
You kinda made the same point I made very recently in the relevant thread about Progamer >> ICCup etc. but you clearly did not add enough >>>>>>>> nor any mention of Fish, so yours is worse.
Anyway, removing sprite limit affects gameplay so you can miss me with all that. Claiming that it isn't a big deal, or saying that people who think it is a big deal are silly, is downright silly. Valkyries have been used in lategame TvT for many years now, and changing the way they operate could upset the current ratios and compositions they are used in at best.
Group #1 or play a different game imo. There is 0 need to fuck up Brood War just so that some people who probably don't play Brood War right now, were never competitive, and will never be competitve are slightly happier and don't know why what they want is fucking things up for the people that have been with the game for decades and at the potential expense of the scene that is the foundation for all things StarCraft.
The fact that we as a community are clearly divided on this issue is what worries me. Blizzard already fucked up BW once in the past to some extent, there is no guarantee they won't do it again and force the scene to cannibalize itself. Divide and conquer. Could TBLS playing BW:HD a parallel to the four horsemen riding waves of lava over the scene that has struggled to stay afloat and grow all these years? Quite possibly.
On March 25 2017 09:05 ninazerg wrote: One big point of contention could be that the game will either have to deviate from the 800x600 screen size (Because technology is moving away from the 4:3 aspect ratio) or have black bars on the sides of the screen or will be in a tiny window. It'll be interesting to see what happens with that.
agree, I play with the black bars, doesn't really affect my game at all.
On March 25 2017 10:16 fearthequeen wrote: Camp 1 for sure. I find it comical that Blizzard wants to go tinkering with BW at this point...
While I agree, do you really think fixing that goon bug, valkyrie spire limit and giving the option to change hotkeys really a bad idea? Assume that Blizzard can fix that stuff without messing up the pathing or anything else.
Pretty big assumption. The reason I find the whole deal funny is because all of the bugs have been adapted to by now. So when you remake the game and start fixing the "bugs", that's cool for people completely new to the game, but I highly doubt that this new version of Brood War would ever be adopted for competitive play if they start changing anything that competitive gamers have learned to play with for years. So, now we're going to have 2 versions of Brood War at one time? I see this purely as a cash grab for Blizzard.
You know Jealous, there could be a sprite limit in 1on1, but which could also be removed in anything other than 1on1 or if playing 1on1 in Melee or something. I'd love to play 4on4 Fastest without any unit limitation... But I kinda agree with you that it is silly to think that this does not have any impact at all.
On March 25 2017 15:18 Jealous wrote: The fact that we as a community are clearly divided on this issue is what worries me. Blizzard already fucked up BW once in the past to some extent, there is no guarantee they won't do it again and force the scene to cannibalize itself. Divide and conquer. Could TBLS playing BW:HD a parallel to the four horsemen riding waves of lava over the scene that has struggled to stay afloat and grow all these years? Quite possibly.
I'm not excited - I'm scared.
realist shit ive heard all day. camp 1 4 lyfe. i think that this idea has gone on long enough. between posts from a year ago and the ongoing slaughter that is going on now and your redefined blog to specify the issue, it has all been said. sorry to kill your post if that is what happens. im waiting for more info to officially be announced before i say anymore about the matter. thanks for this post though, it was certainly intriguing to see it from your perspective. btw love the analogy in the quote
I am not sure. I voted for #2 but only if they fix/change stuff that does not effect gameplay. For example better netcode, fixing graphic problems etc. or higher resolution WITHOUT being able to see more of the battlefield.
Camp 1 + customizable hotkeys imo. Making hotkeys customizable is the only of these changes that has zero effect on gameplay but makes the game more beginner-friendly so I don't see any reason why that shouldn't be done. "Back in the day I had to press P to make probes so that should never be changed or the game would be ruined!" doesn't sound like a valid reason for me. I mean players who don't want that can just stick to their old hotkeys and there would be no difference for them.
i know the poll's study group only out of 17 but still camp 1 should be on top. and b4 any one says that's an opinion, its a FACT. really camp 2 just an androgynous amalgamation of camp 1 with features to benefit UMS like nina pointed out. i feel like...yea yea yea new blood and what not but i honestly feel like that's an excuse at this point. like jealous said best " removing sprite limit affects gameplay so you can miss me with all that. Claiming that it isn't a big deal, or saying that people who think it is a big deal are silly, is downright silly. Valkyries have been used in lategame TvT for many years now, and changing the way they operate could upset the current ratios and compositions they are used in at best.
Group #1 or play a different game imo. There is 0 need to fuck up Brood War just so that some people who probably don't play Brood War right now, were never competitive, and will never be competitve are slightly happier and don't know why what they want is fucking things up for the people that have been with the game for decades and at the potential expense of the scene that is the foundation for all things StarCraft." damnit i said i was done til official word........ BW you cruel and unforgiving mistress
Thanks for your thoughts guys. Interesting to see camp 1 just edging out camp 2. Yes, I assumed that blizzard won't change anything else by fixing a bug or two. It's a big assumption but I'm sure it's a prerequisite for any BW player who fits in camp 2 and wants some bugs fixed.
Sure, valks are used in late game TvT but their behavior is unintentional as in if you as a player build a valk, exception is that it'll work as intended and not stop working based on sprite limit. Yes, there might a small effect on gameplay as in late game TvT but I don't believe that it'll be a huge one either. It's not the end of the world if it doesn't get fixed obviously but it would be nice if valks worked as intended.
Also keep in mind the effect of this on team games and you'll see how from that perspective, it can really improve the game for those players.
Camp #3 but keep those extra features optional, having a "Classic Mode" which is Camp #1 (or Camp #2) nested inside the game.
If you want to be hardcore, you can.
If you want to play casual, but still feel like a boss, with zoom-able map, massive armies, and easier macro/spellcasting, you can chose that too.
Personally, I'm done with playing computer games competitively. But I'd love to still be able to play big macro games with spells going everywhere. Think of the carnage, it'd be so much fun. It'd be the trashy sandbox UMS-esque version of Mele, but I'd love that.
I've been playing a lot of Command and Conquer OpenRA recently, and it's so much better than the 1995 original. Zoomable, easy selection, customizable hotkeys ... it feels like the future. Same for BW, it'd feel like "I am in the future" because, yes, you are in the future.
x4 the screen-space, why not be able to have x4 the bases and production? At worse it'd devolve into a sludgy web-browser-like game. But if the only space you'd have left in life, is for a HD web-browser game, the best RTS ever would be the perfect candidate.
It would bring the skill-cap way down (for 'casuals' at least), focusing less on the mechanics, and more on the nostalgia and fun. Let's face it, if you've been out for a while, it's really disappointing picking BW back up again, because your brain knows the game better than what your fingers can make it do.
What's so good about BW is the DECADES of content. Not just Mele maps, but UMS, what's not to love about HD with infinite selection for casual games? Those mechanical differences would be like going from BW UMS to WCIII UMS (read: good enough to spawn an entirely new game genre).
Of course, all these extensions would need to be consensual, need to be disable-able. But if Blizzard (or OpenBW or whoever) implemented HD zoomable multiple-selection auto-cast BW, I would play it for the next 10-20 years. So much better than any APP or browser-based game (or, frankly, any RTS since)! Seriously, with this tech, you could play BW 20 years from now. Sure, casual, but still <3 <3 <3
EPT
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/d/d5/Valkyrie.png)
