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Currently, we face a crisis. SK.MC criticized the SC2 metagame harshly, calling it (especially in regards to TvZ and TvP) one dimensional, a number of Terran players since 2012 including but not limited to Liquid`Jinro, WW.Sting, Empire.Kas, BeastyQT, MarineKingPrime and Liquid`Sea have retired, citing either imbalance reasons or simply not enjoying the game anymore. Three of the above players have expressed interest in playing other games, MKP and BeastyQT plan to switch to League of Legends while Sea has switched back to Brood War and is playing in SOSPA. We've even seen Xenocider consider retirement along with GM-level Terran pros such as Demuslim, Select, Goody, Bomber, TaeJa, Qxc, SjoW and avilo criticize the balance of the game in one way or another whether offering balance suggestions, whining on stream or in Facebook posts, switching races temporarily or smashing their keyboards prior to typing 'gg.'
It has even happened amongst non-Terrans too. Quite a few KeSPA pros such as Bisu, JangBi, Flying and ZerO have retired for various reasons, whether to pursue military service, because they've gone past their peaks or because they disliked SC2. Either way, a few now stream BW and are competing in SOSPA leagues.
Will this thread be a balance discussion? No. I will not outline the flaws of the current metagame; due to my ranking I am not qualified to comment. All I can say is that as a viewer, I don't find bio vs Protoss or Zerg (both playstyles pretty much mandated at the professional level) interesting to watch. However, I feel like Blizzard as a whole are slowly starting to repeat the balance adjustment mistakes that made Wings Zerg dominated in the first place and overall we're hitting a point where the meta is even more stagnant than in late 2012. At least in 2012 we saw new builds, unit compositions come back into fashion and legitimate Terran and Protoss victories.
If it's not balance whine or discussion, what is it?
A Call To Arms.
Some of you may remember that infamous Inside The Game episode with IdrA, iNcontroL and Destiny talking about the state of the game as a whole. As much as this was done in an attack on Destiny's opinion; IdrA made some very good points in said episode. Some of his quotes:
"Like we all say that they [Blizzard] fucked up and they're not going to fix it, so stop hoping for them to fix it and try to focus on the things that we can actually fix..."
"...we are going to play this game and try to make it as good as possible 'cause Blizzard's not going to do shit, so we're going to..."
This episode was mainly aimed at Destiny's criticisms of SC2 unrelated to the game's balance and related to the casual side of the game. However, Greg's point is completely correct. If Blizzard aren't going to fix things wrong with the game, the community should step in and do so.
So What You're Saying Is?...
Step 1:
Start a Balance Mod Committee; extend an invitation to both large and small scale tournament organizers, mod designers, modders proficient with the SC2 Map Editor and/or 3DSMax, and current/former pro players from all game regions.
Organizers - Host paid tournaments of the balance mod without any conflict with WCS and within the Tournament Guidelines. (I'll explain why later.)
Designers - Gather feedback from pro replays, replay analysis and theorycrafting and assess minor tweaks to the game's balance with the goal of adding areas of perfect imbalance within the game (one unit counters another, etc.)
Pro Players - Mainly to playtest, stream, give feedback and provide private replays for the organizers when necessary.
Modders - Update the mod.
Step 2:
With the resources available, aim to create a StarCraft II mod that:
- Makes minor tweaks to the game, but on things Blizzard are reluctant to adjust.
- Only make moderate tweaks (i.e. replacing spells, giving them new effects) if necessary.
- Avoids removing existing units or adding new units unless ABSOLUTELY 100% necessary.
- Encourages a variety of playstyles and unit compositions.
- Doesn't drastically change resource gathering mechanics or the game's engine.
- Aims to make all, if not a majority of units viable in all three matchups.
- Adds an iCCup/Fish-style rating system to the mod itself. I don't know the workings of mods after 2.1 but if you can load a mod on any map, I'd assume that this would allow you to add an unofficial rating system shared across all maps played with that mod and without the need to add an official ladder.
Step 3:
Present the findings to Blizzard. Nope, this was one of the failures of OneGoal. AFAIK few have been following the progress of the mod since HotS's release, they have lost pro-gamer support and findings haven't been presented to Blizzard. Additionally, OneGoal was flawed because it didn't have much pro-level balance testing or support in the first place.
Encourage organizers to host paid open/invitational tournaments. The viability of this would depend on the business model and how much prize money or sponsorship support is actually offered. However, the tournaments can and should stick to Blizzard tournament guidelines and aim not to interfere with WCS events in any way, shape or form; else Blizzard may intervene and stop said events through legal action.
There is a reason for this. With paid tournaments, a competitive scene could very well flourish from said mod. This would also give high level/professional players an incentive to play the mod although it could potentially cause pro players to switch from SC2 or BW to said mod, which could be seen as a threat to the SC2 scene or the amateur BW scene.
Step 4:
Promote the mod and Starter Edition of Starcraft 2 through word of mouth.
Why? From 2.1 onwards, everything in the Starcraft II client except ranked ladder and campaign modes will be free to play. The Arcade will be free and Custom Games with all three races will be free.
This will be a test of just how much support a F2P RTS can get. If people are willing to jump through hoops, install two 20GB games and a several GB mod in order to play DayZ, I have a feeling people will be willing to install the SC2 Starter Edition to play a RTS if well designed.
Step 5:
Wait for Blizzard's response.
I posted this idea on reddit about 3 times. The first time, people believed that Blizzard would just blacklist the mod or issue cease & desist orders and the other two times resulted in me being called an idiot. However, if it is advertised as a rebalancing mod and Blizzard are apparently okay with mods and paid tournaments can and have been hosted for SC2 mods before... I don't see why it's such a problem.
In the unlikely event that Blizzard would legally shut down the mod, this would not only be corporate suicide; it could potentially lead to another publisher such as Valve acquiring the mod team and enlisting them as developers for a competing RTS game of their own. We saw this happen with DOTA 2 when Blizzard did not give the DotA Allstars team the official acquisition/support they would have desired.
Blizzard could otherwise accept the co-existence of the mod and the main game or they could work alongside the team and implement changes in the main game or hire the team and release the mod as a new free to play competitive RTS of their own. Either way, it's a win-win situation.
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I would like to hear TL's thoughts on this idea. Is it possible? Plausible? Wishful thinking? Fraught with legal issues? Stupid? Or is it something we should maintain the status quo of?
 
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then go ahead and do something instead of "calling to arms" in an internet forum.
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Thanks for the lols. You gave me a good chuckle on a Monday morning.
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On December 23 2013 05:52 aZealot wrote:
Thanks for the lols. You gave me a good chuckle on a Monday morning.
I fail to see the problem... Can you please elaborate?
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On December 23 2013 07:23 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2013 05:52 aZealot wrote:
Thanks for the lols. You gave me a good chuckle on a Monday morning. I fail to see the problem... Can you please elaborate?
Thinking any good idea will be used by blizzard is lols worthy.
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On December 23 2013 08:12 jcroisdale wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2013 07:23 Clbull wrote:On December 23 2013 05:52 aZealot wrote:
Thanks for the lols. You gave me a good chuckle on a Monday morning. I fail to see the problem... Can you please elaborate? Thinking any good idea will be used by blizzard is lols worthy.
What if the mod becomes really popular? I mean actually eclipses the popularity of the game itself just like DotA did with WC3? What if major leagues want to start hosting it? How would Blizzard react then?
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As much as I agree that it's unrealistic to think that blizzard would fix anything, I would argue that it's even more unrealistic to think that a mod would gain any amount of traction within the community, and even less in tournaments. Let's not forget that Blizzard is run by oldschool businessmen who don't understand shit, and they wouldn't stand behind a mod like this.
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On December 23 2013 08:39 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2013 08:12 jcroisdale wrote:On December 23 2013 07:23 Clbull wrote:On December 23 2013 05:52 aZealot wrote:
Thanks for the lols. You gave me a good chuckle on a Monday morning. I fail to see the problem... Can you please elaborate? Thinking any good idea will be used by blizzard is lols worthy. What if the mod becomes really popular? I mean actually eclipses the popularity of the game itself just like DotA did with WC3? What if major leagues want to start hosting it? How would Blizzard react then?
Except it won't. The entire WCS system is paid for by blizzard, why would they want to help this out? You remember Starbow? Neither do most people, and it's exactly what you're talking about. Now if people look back on starbow, they usually chuckle and ask why anyone thought that would work out. Furthermore, citing imbalance as a reason for quitting is an excuse, not having fun with it means it's like any other job that people quit. MC's remarks are harsh, but not necessarily the case right now, and just his remarks don't mean much if other progamers aren't backing his remarks up as publicly as he is putting them out there.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Not to mention that citing Jinro, Sea, and Beastyqt as examples of Terrans quitting showing imbalance is ridiculous. Jinro quit in WoL, Sea had just switched from BW and never really got into SC2, and Beasty cited BL Infestor, disappointments, and haters as the reason he quit. None of them quit because of HoTS balance. Sting unlikely retired due to balance--most likely military service or a struggling career--and Kas didn't retire.
Having a 'balance committee' sounds like a fancy idea, but 99% of posters on TL know little about it including myself. You don't put up a very good argument for this being a good or effective ... "solution".
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I think its a good idea but we don't need to reinvent the wheel. StarBow is a good starting point, it has solid followers and very potent designers. It just needs more support from the community.
AND lol at those people who are bashing OP. The post is very constructive and thorough, with little mistakes. But I guess whining at "Designated balance discussion" thread is better.
On December 23 2013 08:45 Djzapz wrote:
As much as I agree that it's unrealistic to think that blizzard would fix anything, I would argue that it's even more unrealistic to think that a mod would gain any amount of traction within the community, and even less in tournaments. Let's not forget that Blizzard is run by oldschool businessmen who don't understand shit, and they wouldn't stand behind a mod like this.
dota all-stars made it big without any support from blizzard.
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1. balance needs not to based on whining of people, neither amatuers nor experts
2. balance cannot be based on statistics(like Blizzard wanted to make it)
3. there cannot be more than a few commited individuals that decide upon the balance(it is hard to come to agreement in large teams)
4. individual(s) that decide upon balance cannot be payed for it - it needs to be a work of art and passion
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All you had to do was call me to arms! I'm already making preparations to implement a balance mod right away, and we just have to form a team of experts that you will pick to make the suggestions and do the beta testing. I'm going to change the mothership core so that it doesn't do damage, but shoots a laser that temporarily paralyzes units. I also heard a pretty interesting idea from someone who suggested that mutalisks should be able to merge into one large mutalisk that shoots small mutalisks. I would like to test this idea for sure. Let me know what you think, and let's get this thing started.
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United States97276 Posts
On December 23 2013 22:30 ninazerg wrote:
All you had to do was call me to arms! I'm already making preparations to implement a balance mod right away, and we just have to form a team of experts that you will pick to make the suggestions and do the beta testing. I'm going to change the mothership core so that it doesn't do damage, but shoots a laser that temporarily paralyzes units. I also heard a pretty interesting idea from someone who suggested that mutalisks should be able to merge into one large mutalisk that shoots small mutalisks. I would like to test this idea for sure. Let me know what you think, and let's get this thing started.
give every unit psionic storm. game solved. I like your ideas though. Maybe have the mutalisk shoot 1 mutalisk for every bounce it does? zerg needs more free units
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On December 23 2013 18:21 saddaromma wrote:
dota all-stars made it big without any support from blizzard.
Welcome to the new world?
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It would be interesting to pick the brains of the people who were responsible for balancing BW. I wonder if it was a chance coincidence of talented individuals, or did they have design goals that can be copied to achieve similar balance? It's clear that a lot of the talent has left Blizzard. Every single game they used to put out would be an enduring classic... now there's Diablo 3 and shit.
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On December 23 2013 16:16 lichter wrote:
Not to mention that citing Jinro, Sea, and Beastyqt as examples of Terrans quitting showing imbalance is ridiculous. Jinro quit in WoL, Sea had just switched from BW and never really got into SC2, and Beasty cited BL Infestor, disappointments, and haters as the reason he quit. None of them quit because of HoTS balance. Sting unlikely retired due to balance--most likely military service or a struggling career--and Kas didn't retire.
Hence the line 'or simply not enjoying the game anymore.' I merely gave Jinro, Sea and Beastyqt as examples of Terrans who have retired in or after 2012, not ones who have retired over balance concerns.
Out of all the Blizzard employees, I think David Kim is the only one who is sufficiently skilled at the RTS according to the standards set by the community and even then I think he was GM level in the game's launch on NA. In fact, I think Dustin Browder acknowledged that he himself was Platinum League and he was a core designer for C&C2...
Beasty cited BL Infestor, disappointments, and haters as the reason he quit
IIRC, Beasty quit during HotS and I cannot blame him for citing BL Infestor as one of the main reasons because at that point Zerg winrates were ridiculous, Terrans especially in the international scene were greatly struggling to get results while Korean Terrans persevered until their limited options were finally sussed out and we saw two GSL Ro4s with at least 3 Zergs as well as all-ZvZ semifinals in a few foreign tournaments (i.e. Homestory Cup 6.) I find it even more disappointing that after 2012/early 2013, heads haven't rolled in the SC2 development team because technically an unnecessary (as in gamers both pro and amateur alike spoke out against it) Queen buff was the catalyst to everything that happened to the meta in 2012. I think the only departure was Dustin Browder and that was more of a voluntary move just to reassign him to the Heroes development team.
Having a 'balance committee' sounds like a fancy idea, but 99% of posters on TL know little about it including myself. You don't put up a very good argument for this being a good or effective ... "solution".
And I suppose waiting for change from Blizzard is a good or effective "solution" too? If a mod can spawn an entirely new genre of video game (I mean EVERYBODY is releasing a fucking ARTS/MOBA game these days) and two of the most successful eSports in the world; surely this isn't such an irrational proposal?
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On December 23 2013 22:30 ninazerg wrote:
All you had to do was call me to arms! I'm already making preparations to implement a balance mod right away, and we just have to form a team of experts that you will pick to make the suggestions and do the beta testing. I'm going to change the mothership core so that it doesn't do damage, but shoots a laser that temporarily paralyzes units. I also heard a pretty interesting idea from someone who suggested that mutalisks should be able to merge into one large mutalisk that shoots small mutalisks. I would like to test this idea for sure. Let me know what you think, and let's get this thing started.
On avilo's stream last night, someone said in chat that Blizzard should buff the Carrier so that it shoots Oracles out. He read it and was like "Get the fuc.... actually, stay the fuck in my chat! You should apply for a role at Blizzard!"
That suggestion was almost but not quite as ridiculous as yours (the large mutalisk that shoots smaller mutalisks one; the MSC one was quite good but I even think that having Photon Overcharge cancel upon the death of the MSC would be a good enough change to balance it out.)
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On December 24 2013 03:17 Mothra wrote:
It would be interesting to pick the brains of the people who were responsible for balancing BW. I wonder if it was a chance coincidence of talented individuals, or did they have design goals that can be copied to achieve similar balance? It's clear that a lot of the talent has left Blizzard. Every single game they used to put out would be an enduring classic... now there's Diablo 3 and shit.
I'm almost worried that if we get former BW developers to criticize SC2 constructively, we'll have another one of those "Fuck that loser" incidents at Blizzard; although I think the SC2 development team are certainly classier than that.
I don't even think we necessarily need the former developers of BW. We already saw a small, talented New Zealand team called Grinding Gear Games create a free to play online ARPG that makes everything about Diablo III (aside from the combat system which is great) look incredibly bad. In fact, I'd even argue that Path of Exile is the greatest ARPG since Diablo II.
The point is... Rome wasn't built in a day and I'm sure it took GGG a while to get the formula right. I just feel like Blizzard have made only very small and minute changes in comparison to Riot (the 2013 Preseason patch after Worlds) and Valve (6.79 after The International 2013) in the preseason of WCS 2014.
On December 23 2013 15:10 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2013 08:39 Clbull wrote:On December 23 2013 08:12 jcroisdale wrote:On December 23 2013 07:23 Clbull wrote:On December 23 2013 05:52 aZealot wrote:
Thanks for the lols. You gave me a good chuckle on a Monday morning. I fail to see the problem... Can you please elaborate? Thinking any good idea will be used by blizzard is lols worthy. What if the mod becomes really popular? I mean actually eclipses the popularity of the game itself just like DotA did with WC3? What if major leagues want to start hosting it? How would Blizzard react then? Except it won't. The entire WCS system is paid for by blizzard, why would they want to help this out? You remember Starbow? Neither do most people, and it's exactly what you're talking about. Now if people look back on starbow, they usually chuckle and ask why anyone thought that would work out. Furthermore, citing imbalance as a reason for quitting is an excuse, not having fun with it means it's like any other job that people quit. MC's remarks are harsh, but not necessarily the case right now, and just his remarks don't mean much if other progamers aren't backing his remarks up as publicly as he is putting them out there.
Starbow is actually the closest we've ever come to a decent rebalancing/redesigning mod (Yes, even closer than OneGoal) and the creators of that mod deserve more exposure and a round of applause. However, I feel like it's trying too hard to be Brood War in a way SC2BW isn't and has gone a bit too far in terms of removing SC2 units and replacing them with BW units as opposed to original units.
Nonetheless, it feels like the closest we've ever come to a true Brood War successor that isn't just 'Brood War HD' required to be played with arbitrary 'smart casting', '12 unit/1 building control group limit' and 'automine' disabled options.
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Fixing SC2 is a waste of time, 2014's gonna be all about Heroes of the Storm. (and Hearthstone, but less so)
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On December 24 2013 11:30 Cheren wrote:
Fixing SC2 is a waste of time, 2014's gonna be all about Heroes of the Storm. (and Hearthstone, but less so)
Which started out as a mod for SC2.
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On December 24 2013 00:15 Shellshock wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2013 22:30 ninazerg wrote:
All you had to do was call me to arms! I'm already making preparations to implement a balance mod right away, and we just have to form a team of experts that you will pick to make the suggestions and do the beta testing. I'm going to change the mothership core so that it doesn't do damage, but shoots a laser that temporarily paralyzes units. I also heard a pretty interesting idea from someone who suggested that mutalisks should be able to merge into one large mutalisk that shoots small mutalisks. I would like to test this idea for sure. Let me know what you think, and let's get this thing started. give every unit psionic storm. game solved. I like your ideas though. Maybe have the mutalisk shoot 1 mutalisk for every bounce it does? zerg needs more free units
I will take into consideration your suggestion to give all units psionic storms, although I think this may lead to a very frustrating metagame. Let me explain: let's say harvesters had psionic storms. Players would always have to pull one worker to watch their ramp and storm the incoming scouting harvester before it storms the home player's mineral line. Additionally, since Zerg starts with an overlord, they could use the overlord to watch the ramp, which has longer vision than a worker, allowing the Zerg to build a spawning pool, and zerglings are the fastest early game unit, which would lead to Zerg rushing to pool and using lings to storm every game.
On December 24 2013 03:27 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2013 22:30 ninazerg wrote:
All you had to do was call me to arms! I'm already making preparations to implement a balance mod right away, and we just have to form a team of experts that you will pick to make the suggestions and do the beta testing. I'm going to change the mothership core so that it doesn't do damage, but shoots a laser that temporarily paralyzes units. I also heard a pretty interesting idea from someone who suggested that mutalisks should be able to merge into one large mutalisk that shoots small mutalisks. I would like to test this idea for sure. Let me know what you think, and let's get this thing started. On avilo's stream last night, someone said in chat that Blizzard should buff the Carrier so that it shoots Oracles out. He read it and was like "Get the fuc.... actually, stay the fuck in my chat! You should apply for a role at Blizzard!" That suggestion was almost but not quite as ridiculous as yours (the large mutalisk that shoots smaller mutalisks one; the MSC one was quite good but I even think that having Photon Overcharge cancel upon the death of the MSC would be a good enough change to balance it out.)
The large mutalisk is actually not my idea. Someone came up with the idea during an interview with Acer`Scarlett. I just don't want to take the idea off the table because it initially sounds outlandish, because it could introduce a fresh dynamic to the game.
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EPT
