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On November 15 2013 15:22 TotalBiscuit wrote:
I gotta ask, considering you've stated you don't have time to watch my videos, yet you seem to have plenty of time to argue with me, why you aren't devoting your energies to doing something positive and useful within the scene.
Looks like you have a secret fan.
GLHF TB, I'm signing out - 07:24AM here and old people need at least some sleep.
Helps to get a clear head and approach things more relaxed.
Keep up the good work and don't waste all this time you could make videos or spend time with your son with online-folk.
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On November 15 2013 15:27 MaxiTB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 15:22 TotalBiscuit wrote:
I gotta ask, considering you've stated you don't have time to watch my videos, yet you seem to have plenty of time to argue with me, why you aren't devoting your energies to doing something positive and useful within the scene. Looks like you have a secret fan. GLHF TB, I'm signing out - 07:24AM here and old people need at least some sleep. Helps to get a clear head and approach things more relaxed. Keep up the good work and don't waste all this time you could make videos or spend time with your son with online-folk.
Yuup ditto. It's 1:27am and the encodes are all done so time for bed.
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On November 15 2013 15:22 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 15:18 Junho.C wrote:
Why couldn't handle the argument within closed doors like normal people? Instead you even used that argument for publicity. This is not "educate Junho on everything he doesn't understand" evening. You're asking a bunch of dumb questions that you would know the answer to if you knew the situation surrounding what happened rather than just vague recollections or second-hand hearsay. "You used that argument for publicity". Are you shitting me? We were fucking crucified for trying to be transparent with the community about the situation. Oh the calls for transparency, the community LOOOOVESSS transparency. They worship the ground Richard Lewis walks on because of all the transparency and accountability he's bringing to the scene but oh, when it happens to someone we like, then PRIVACY IS KING. You want to talk about double standards? Let's start right there. Using Skype conversations to provide context to a situation to make sure the community knew exactly what was going on, came back to bite us in the ass and taught us a very valuable lesson. The community only wants transparency when its convenient for them and some of them, yourself included, don't bother to avail yourself of the facts before making accusations of people. I gotta ask, considering you've stated you don't have time to watch my videos, yet you seem to have plenty of time to argue with me, why you aren't devoting your energies to doing something positive and useful within the scene. You seem to have plenty of time to kill and you're convinced of your own expertise. Bloody well do something, makes a damn difference.
So, you were being transparent for the publicity from the community regardless of how it affects others involved?
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On November 15 2013 15:28 Junho.C wrote:
So, you were being transparent for the publicity from the community regardless of how it affects others involved?
Ok now I'm convinced you're just trolling, nobody could possibly be this dense by accident.
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Ok, so, let me get this straight:
Juncho.C thinks TotalBiscuit is a hypocrite because he is actively(Shoutcraft) in favour of region locking while Axiom continues to have players in WCS America.
Junho.C would be initially right, in a way, if this was a matter of principle. The "If we pulled out of WCS America, some other Korean players would just take our place" doesn't work if it's a matter of principle. But then again, there are two reasons that TB is right.
1. It's not a matter of principle. It's a business, and TB already explained why region locking makes sense from a business perspective. The football analogy works fairly well.
2. The Axiom players are independent contractors, as TB already said. He doesn't tell them where they can and can't play.
Is this all a ploy to get people to support region locking so that Shoutcraft becomes popular? Yes and no. Yes, because it's a business. Why wouldn't someone actively support their own business? And no, because TB hasn't really been secretive about anything.
Ok, opinion time.
You claim that you are for region lock(while enjoying the publicity your videos and other medium got you), yet you sent your players to WCS AM, knowing that it would deprive of regional player's exposure within WCS AM. You proclaim that you can not legally tell the players where they can play. This is true, but you supplied the funds to send them to WCS AM. Many Korean players want to play in WCS AM, but do not because their teams won't supply the funds. Therefore, while you MIGHT not have told them to play in WCS AM, you were complacent as your sponsors and you(Youtube), are based in foreign scenes.
Ok, so, here's the problem with this idea: TB has to send his players somewhere. They choose where they want to play and TB(or rather Cynicalbrit) pays for it. And he doesn't do that because he continuously wants to support his players mentally(though I have no doubt that he does support them mentally), he does it because he has to. No players at tournaments, no exposure, no sponsors, no paychecks for the players.
Now, you could still argue that this was TB's plan all along, to put himself into a position where his actions can all be excused because he was forced into them, but I doubt he's that smart(no personal offence meant).
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It took me a long time to realize how people could say Starcraft has an amazing community.
It's because the community that is amazing is almost strictly the one that shows up to the lan events and makes them the place to be.
While the internet community is doing everything in it's power to troll and bring down starcraft as a game and also everyone who likes it.
Stay strong my game slayers.
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On November 15 2013 15:29 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 15:28 Junho.C wrote:
So, you were being transparent for the publicity from the community regardless of how it affects others involved? Ok now I'm convinced you're just trolling, nobody could possibly be this dense by accident.
No, I just know that when you are conducting business, you consider them first and work out a situation that are beneficial to both parties. Instead of talking to TaKe and formulating a proper explanation that provides enough transparency for the community, you screwed TaKe and started the shitstorm.
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I wanted to bring attention back to a point TB made a while ago about how he's not trying to "change" anyone's deep seated opinion, but to educate the onlookers. As I finished reading the current last post in this thread, I realized I was only continuing reading this thread to absorb what TB has to say about "the scene" and his business operations. Funny how that works.
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Just wrote this on reddit and needed to share
TotalBiscuit: If it were not our players "taking away opportunities" it would be other Korean players. Our players knock other Korean players out of Premier league just as much as they do foreigners. The system is at fault. If not us, some other Korean players.
That's just flawed logic, I think it's called a slippery slope.
Putting better players into the competition always makes it harder for everyone. If Axiom players kick out other good Koreans, that means that these Axiom players are probably better than the other Korean players, which simply raises the bar, and trying to deny that is stupid.
TotalBiscuit: We cannot legally tell our players where to play. Each of our players is an independent contractor who makes their own decisions about which tournaments they participate in. We cannot tell a player to go to a specific event and even if we could, we wouldn't because that's not how we treat our players. If they want to play in WCS America, that is their decision, not mine.
Every good team needs leadership, but to each their own I guess.
But don't use this as an argument that the players make the choice, because you gave them the choice to begin with.
TotalBiscuit: Why is it that Axiom is the only team getting criticised for sending Koreans to WCS America? Such a strange thing to do when we're also providing opportunities for Americans with the SCA tournaments. I suppose the loudest person is the easiest target, but it all strikes me as rather odd. I'm not in favour of any team getting flack for that but it does seem curiously silent when referring to EG or Teamliquid.
Because EG and Teamliquid strengthen the foreign scene by supporting foreign players.
Having a reliable team is much more valueable than one 5000$ tournament. No one will decide to stay or go pro because of this tournament.
TotalBiscuit: EG and Teamliquid signed Korean players after their inception because they wanted to win tournaments. Axiom signed Korean players from day 1 because we wanted to help out the Korean scene and particular players within it who were not getting the opportunities they deserved.
Axiom signed Koreans because it was easy.
Finding and maintaining foreigners across the world and having success with them is really hard.
To give the ex Slayers members a room to play and then seeing oneself on the high horse compared to EG and TL when it comes down to the motives and actions is a bit questionable.
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Hey TB! Been watching your videos a lot recently, watched your lord of the arena series for a few days in a row. I like your wtf is too. I also thought you were awesome casting the Hearthstone tourney! Just wanted to give that quick shout out.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 15 2013 13:17 Junho.C wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 13:12 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 13:08 Junho.C wrote:
Impact did not compete in WCS AM S3 because by the time he joined Axiom, WCS AM S3 was already in progress. If your entire team composed of Koreans are competing in WCS AM and taking opportunities away from regional players that you, yourself, are criticizing about. Have the decency to not criticize the format that your team and players are exploiting. Shoutcraft is a very good idea and I'm all for it. But, your two-faced attitude about region lock and developing regions DO NOT help to promote Shoutcraft or your intention of promoting global SC2 as a whole. I like how you didn't bother to respond to any of the things I said at all. Also since you were the person who posted the misconception this blog posts exists to respond to, to begin with I'd have thought you'd put in a bit more effort to refute some of the stuff I just said. Impact is competing in WCS America because he's playing in WCS Korea and qualified for Challenger. Also we very specifically talked about that with him before we even signed him and he wants to play in Korea. There's nothing two-faced about my attitude and the only people saying that are those looking for "gotcha" crap and with too simplistic an understanding of the situation to have good grounds on which to form an opinion. I added this, so consider this as well: Also, you may now defend your team as not America-based. You have previously said that your team is America based when your team first competed in WCS AM. SC2 community also consider your team as American team, as well. Also, there was no misconception about the clear fact that you have criticized WCS system for a long time, yet your team and players have taken advantage of the format and competed in WCS AM for more exposure. This is the obvious thing to do from a business stand point, but you should not criticize the system that your team and players are exploiting.
What, his team can't receive the same benefits from the same tournament structure that everyone else does? He's the one trying to change the system, but until it changes, he should damn well on keep going to keep his team competitive, and you are trying to accomplish what here? Get him to pull his team out of WCS America? Or shut up about region locking? He can't do the former, and he won't do the latter, as it's his personal opinion. You keep your opinions separate from doing your job as a team manager.
What are you not getting here?
It is not hypocrisy to want his players (not himself) to have the best opportunity they can and use the same legal system and structure that the rest of the playing field uses, while himself personally believing the structure should change. Shoutcraft is an attempt to help the NA region separate from WCS. I don't understand why people are lambasting him for this, if you don't want to watch it, don't watch it.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
people are still trying to use faulty ideologies like 'only americans should be allowed in wcs america' to try and let non-koreans have a chance at winning or do well in something? nothing will ever change lol
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2450 Posts
LMAO damn Junho getting blown the FUCK out.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 15 2013 15:51 zieheuer wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Just wrote this on reddit and needed to share TotalBiscuit: If it were not our players "taking away opportunities" it would be other Korean players. Our players knock other Korean players out of Premier league just as much as they do foreigners. The system is at fault. If not us, some other Korean players. That's just flawed logic, I think it's called a slippery slope. Putting better players into the competition always makes it harder for everyone. If Axiom players kick out other good Koreans, that means that these Axiom players are probably better than the other Korean players, which simply raises the bar, and trying to deny that is stupid. TotalBiscuit: We cannot legally tell our players where to play. Each of our players is an independent contractor who makes their own decisions about which tournaments they participate in. We cannot tell a player to go to a specific event and even if we could, we wouldn't because that's not how we treat our players. If they want to play in WCS America, that is their decision, not mine. Every good team needs leadership, but to each their own I guess. But don't use this as an argument that the players make the choice, because you gave them the choice to begin with. TotalBiscuit: Why is it that Axiom is the only team getting criticised for sending Koreans to WCS America? Such a strange thing to do when we're also providing opportunities for Americans with the SCA tournaments. I suppose the loudest person is the easiest target, but it all strikes me as rather odd. I'm not in favour of any team getting flack for that but it does seem curiously silent when referring to EG or Teamliquid. Because EG and Teamliquid strengthen the foreign scene by supporting foreign players. Having a reliable team is much more valueable than one 5000$ tournament. No one will decide to stay or go pro because of this tournament. TotalBiscuit: EG and Teamliquid signed Korean players after their inception because they wanted to win tournaments. Axiom signed Korean players from day 1 because we wanted to help out the Korean scene and particular players within it who were not getting the opportunities they deserved. Axiom signed Koreans because it was easy. Finding and maintaining foreigners across the world and having success with them is really hard. To give the ex Slayers members a room to play and then seeing oneself on the high horse compared to EG and TL when it comes down to the motives and actions is a bit questionable.
I would like to know why you think it's better to support mediocre American players over insanely talented and hard-working Korean players that have almost no way in hell to get on a team in the foreseeable future. Almost without exception, the players on Axiom are better than any player you will find in the NA/EU scenes. They still wouldn't have had any chance at exposure and/or salaries had they remained teamless in Korea. So TB is supporting them - the players with both the talent and the dedication to work hard, and the American scene through tournaments paid from, if I understand the situation correctly, his own pocket. The only players in NA that realistically would get any significant money are the ones that can compete with Scarlett. There aren't many of those. And short of Xenocider and maybe Suppy, I don't really see EG/Liquid picking up any players that weren't already very good (unless they're Koreans like in the case of HerO/Taeja).
So no, I don't think there's a significant difference in "support" between hosting two Shoutcrafts and having one or two North American players with salaries on your team.
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As usual, I find that TotalBiscuit has presented a cogent argument, with valid points and an unwavering perspective. (Hint - the "perspective of millions" is absolute bunk compared to the relevant factual statements that have been made by both TotalBiscuit and Intricacy since the formation of Axiom. Unlike a lot of other teams, they've been exceedingly transparent in their operations and motivations.)
Everything I've read in this particular thread that attempts to "refute" the points made I can sum up in one statement. "Come back and try again after you've had at least one debate class."
I mean, seriously - fallacious comparisons mixed with ad hominems and a few straw men with little (if indeed any) specific facts. TotalBiscuit has come back with specifics, addressed points, and had to put up with nothing but a shifting sand of baseless, ill-formed opinions which mostly boil down to "whatever, you suck".
He doesn't suck - the fact that TotalBiscuit wrote this blog is fair proof of that. I'll agree he hasn't always responded well to some things, but he did a damn good job here.The main opposition? Yeah, not so much.
Anyways, shut the hell up. TB is one of the few people involved in the industry that actually still spends a decent amount of time talking to the community. Let him do so without launching a flurry of poorly concealed ad hominem attacks that are only tenuously linked to the matter at hand.
+ Show Spoiler +I do think TB ditching his reddit account was good though. Nothing good comes of reddit, and I'm including the dogs wearing hats subreddit.
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On November 15 2013 15:28 Junho.C wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 15:22 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 15:18 Junho.C wrote:
Why couldn't handle the argument within closed doors like normal people? Instead you even used that argument for publicity. This is not "educate Junho on everything he doesn't understand" evening. You're asking a bunch of dumb questions that you would know the answer to if you knew the situation surrounding what happened rather than just vague recollections or second-hand hearsay. "You used that argument for publicity". Are you shitting me? We were fucking crucified for trying to be transparent with the community about the situation. Oh the calls for transparency, the community LOOOOVESSS transparency. They worship the ground Richard Lewis walks on because of all the transparency and accountability he's bringing to the scene but oh, when it happens to someone we like, then PRIVACY IS KING. You want to talk about double standards? Let's start right there. Using Skype conversations to provide context to a situation to make sure the community knew exactly what was going on, came back to bite us in the ass and taught us a very valuable lesson. The community only wants transparency when its convenient for them and some of them, yourself included, don't bother to avail yourself of the facts before making accusations of people. I gotta ask, considering you've stated you don't have time to watch my videos, yet you seem to have plenty of time to argue with me, why you aren't devoting your energies to doing something positive and useful within the scene. You seem to have plenty of time to kill and you're convinced of your own expertise. Bloody well do something, makes a damn difference. So, you were being transparent for the publicity from the community regardless of how it affects others involved?
The fuck are you trying to accomplish here?
I know, maybe if you ramble and rant long enough, TotalBiscuit will realize the error of his ways, say "Oops, I'm such a terrible person" and pull the plug on Axiom, Shoutcraft, and every bit of his SC2 involvement because "gosh darn it I'm so hypocritical".
God damn this community sure loves to drive off everyone that actually does anything in SC2...
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Thanks Junho.C for bringing me some entertainment for my morning coffee.
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5/5 . TB those haters will never come to tournaments never support teams .
Have you ever met in your life a fan @ a lan tournament to complain about things you do ?
Those are frustrated kids that cant get over the fact they cant beat koreans and then find stupid reasons to blame people for this .
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Austria24422 Posts
Here's an example. You don't agree with any political party's program in your country. You think they're all terrible. You voice that concern but you vote one of them anyway. Are you a hypocrite?
No you're not. It would be idiotic of you not to elect the least evil, otherwise you're letting your voice and your responsibility go to waste. But that doesn't mean you can't criticize all of them while establishing your own party and showing how it could be done better. TB is electing the least terrible party (letting his players compete in WCS AM) while speaking out against the terrible parties in his country (the WCS system) but at the same time he's establishing his own and trying to show how it could be done better (with SCA). Because if you don't elect anyone, nobody gives a shit. You have failed to vote, gg. The world moves on and you have no say in it (and no right to complain because you didn't try to change anything). As a founder and CEO of an Sc2 team, you can't let the world move on without you and your team.
I think I nailed it.
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On November 15 2013 15:51 zieheuer wrote:Just wrote this on reddit and needed to share Show nested quote +TotalBiscuit: If it were not our players "taking away opportunities" it would be other Korean players. Our players knock other Korean players out of Premier league just as much as they do foreigners. The system is at fault. If not us, some other Korean players. That's just flawed logic, I think it's called a slippery slope. Putting better players into the competition always makes it harder for everyone. If Axiom players kick out other good Koreans, that means that these Axiom players are probably better than the other Korean players, which simply raises the bar, and trying to deny that is stupid. Show nested quote +TotalBiscuit: We cannot legally tell our players where to play. Each of our players is an independent contractor who makes their own decisions about which tournaments they participate in. We cannot tell a player to go to a specific event and even if we could, we wouldn't because that's not how we treat our players. If they want to play in WCS America, that is their decision, not mine. Every good team needs leadership, but to each their own I guess. But don't use this as an argument that the players make the choice, because you gave them the choice to begin with. Show nested quote +TotalBiscuit: Why is it that Axiom is the only team getting criticised for sending Koreans to WCS America? Such a strange thing to do when we're also providing opportunities for Americans with the SCA tournaments. I suppose the loudest person is the easiest target, but it all strikes me as rather odd. I'm not in favour of any team getting flack for that but it does seem curiously silent when referring to EG or Teamliquid. Because EG and Teamliquid strengthen the foreign scene by supporting foreign players. Having a reliable team is much more valueable than one 5000$ tournament. No one will decide to stay or go pro because of this tournament. Show nested quote +TotalBiscuit: EG and Teamliquid signed Korean players after their inception because they wanted to win tournaments. Axiom signed Korean players from day 1 because we wanted to help out the Korean scene and particular players within it who were not getting the opportunities they deserved. Axiom signed Koreans because it was easy. Finding and maintaining foreigners across the world and having success with them is really hard. To give the ex Slayers members a room to play and then seeing oneself on the high horse compared to EG and TL when it comes down to the motives and actions is a bit questionable.
This post is so flawed I had to respond even though I was trying to stay out of this.
1) This could be the case or hypothetically if all 4 Axiiom players stayed in Korea 4 other better Korean players might have looked at the competition in America without the Axiom players and thought it was worth a shot to try competing in America. we are talking hypothetical possibilities here so all arguments are valid.
2) Obviously you have no idea how effective management works. A good team manager would never dictate to his players "you WILL play in Korea." This would alienate the players a major lack of motivation for your players to compete their best or even to compete at all. Totalbiscuit (or Genna) have stated previously that the team discussed which regions the players wanted to play in as a group and the players adamantly wanted to play in America therefore Axiom's players played in America. That is how you manage. You discuss the issue and come to a consensus you don't dictate your opinions onto your team.
3) Totalbiscuit has never said that Axiom was a foreign team. It is a Korean team intended to support the Korean scene. Had Axiom not been created players like Crank, Alicia, Ryung, and Heart may have had to retire as they were not getting to many team offers after Slayers disbanded. Instead they are active members of the SC2 community in Korea and worldwide. That was Axiom's goal and it has succeeded.
Also, I highly doubt he intends for Shoutcraft to be the be all and end of NA tournaments. The point iss to try and prove that a region locked tournament in America can be successful and to hopefully be a springboard for other similar tournaments. And if this happend it actually might lead to more players turning pro in NA and having motivation to comtinue to improve.
4) You obviously have no idea how Axiom was founded. Korean players were signed because those Korean players had nowhere to live and no way to support themselves after the death of Slayers. Crank was a friend of Genna and Totalbiscuit and they started by supporting him when nobody else would; How would it possibly be easier to sign and manage Koreans who live halfway around the world from you? And how could it be easier to have a team based in Korea, with players who barely speak english, that is sponsored in America? This is just illogical.
Your post just sounds like an illogical anti-Totalbiscuit rant.
BTW I am not the biggest fan of how TB operates sometimes but I do appreciate that he obviously cares about the SC2 scene and does not deserve to be shit on with illogical, poorly thought out and poorly researched opinions.
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EPT
