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On November 15 2013 14:55 partydude89 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 14:49 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:43 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 14:34 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:26 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 14:20 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:07 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 13:53 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 13:47 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 13:45 Junho.C wrote:
[quote]
Do you consider the millions of people's perspective bull shit? Many news articles have criticized president's Obama for taking actions that goes against the statements and promises before he became president. That is just among countless examples throughout history. Yes, those millions of people are past college age and quite educated.
I do support what you are doing to give exposure to the NA players, but your singling out Blizzard and WCS which has helped much to develop the scene while you are taking advantage of it is questionable at best. Especially when all the major tournaments in SC2 eSports have not region locked their tournaments while having the name of the region in their tournament name.
I am flabbergasted but not surprised that you would break out a ridiculous comparison like President Obama. People criticized his actions because he made promises he didn't keep (and or did the opposite of). I did not create WCS and have little if any power to change it. Pulling my players from WCS America would do precisely dick. Jeopardising my position as a caster by publicly criticising WCS on the other hand not only has some effect but is actually as a risk to me. Come back to me when you take risks for your beliefs. Then you might have a new appreciation for my position. It had actually 0 effect, as you were hired by Blizzard to cast Hearthstone at Blizzcon. I only used President Obama as an example as he is the one the people will most recognize. While he criticized the surveillance of citizens and allies, he has done precisely the thing he criticized after he became the president. Similar to how you criticized the non region locked system of WCS, yet your team took advantage of it and used it once WCS started. Why have you not addressed my point about the other major tournaments doing similar things long before WCS started? You have not criticized them for not region locking as far as I'm aware. Oh man you are so bad at this whole debate thing. Your false equivalency is so glaring I'm shocked you can't see it yourself when everyone else has no problem spotting it miles away. Obama criticized surveillance then when coming to power he commited surveillance. TotalBiscuit criticised the lack of region-lock and when coming to power (lol) did not region-lock.... wait... he didn't have the power to region lock. The mental gymnastics you're having to go through to reach the conclusion that I'm somehow doing the very thing I'm criticising, which as a team-owner not a tournament provider is literally impossible (and I'm actually like the only tournament operator who IS region-locking his tournaments) are olympic level. I'd give you a solid 9 if you hadn't botched the landing. Let's repeat for the class. Criticising a tournament for lack of region lock while having your Korean players play in it is not hypocrisy, it is not double-standards and it is not ethically questionable. It is not a region-locked tournament. I might as well be sending them to Dreamhack, it'd have the exact same effect. They're all non-region locked events, there is currently no difference. Why am I not criticising other tournaments? Well gee that's not exactly a hard one, maybe it's because WCS is the dominant weekly format whereas all these other events are weekend warrior or online. The entire SC2 scene now revolves around WCS, everyone else has to play musical chairs with them in time to the music or be left out in the cold. WCS dictates how this scene now operates and has the biggest influence by far. Why would I criticize other tournaments? It's not their job to stimulate the regional scenes (yet there are plenty of them that do anyway btw, especially in Europe). It is WCS job and it's failing at it. The more I speak to you the more I'm convinced you're grasping at straws to desperately try and resolve some weird cognitive dissonance stuff in your head. If I was so bad at this whole debate thing, as you say. My post would not have gotten your attention. Ahh yes the good old housefly fallacy. "I'm good at this because you're paying attention to me!". No, you're no more better at holding my attention than a housefly is. It has my attention until I squash it, not because it has anything worthwhile to teach me. Also the assumption that making you see the error of your ways is the goal of this post and discussion. It isn't, you'll never convince someone on the internet that they're wrong. The aim of an argument online is to convince everyone else watching that the opposition is wrong, to discredit them in the eyes of the community. So far so good, since literally nobody here is agreeing with you so far. Everything else in your post was previously debunked, so you're wasting your time repeating it. See original post for counterargument to the whole "if your players weren't there" speculation. See previous definitions of hypocrisy and explanations as to why you're using the term incorrectly as well as reasoning why other tournaments are not comparable to WCS. How about you respond to what I write without resulting to a condescending manner? Well it's mostly because you're awful and horribly accusatory. Maybe if you hadn't thrown out wild accusations from the outset you'd have been treated with respect. I wouldn't have been the first person who accused you of something. Your incident with TaKe comes to mind... I can't really recall anyone who accused you of something that you treated with respect. Even someone like TaKe who has done so much for the scene. Didn't take threaten to sue his wife? if i was TB, i'd be upset as well.
No, he was angry and he was saying that he hoped that there were consequences for publicizing private conversations.
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On November 15 2013 15:01 Junho.C wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 14:55 partydude89 wrote:On November 15 2013 14:49 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:43 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 14:34 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:26 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 14:20 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:07 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 13:53 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 13:47 TotalBiscuit wrote:
[quote]
I am flabbergasted but not surprised that you would break out a ridiculous comparison like President Obama.
People criticized his actions because he made promises he didn't keep (and or did the opposite of). I did not create WCS and have little if any power to change it. Pulling my players from WCS America would do precisely dick. Jeopardising my position as a caster by publicly criticising WCS on the other hand not only has some effect but is actually as a risk to me.
Come back to me when you take risks for your beliefs. Then you might have a new appreciation for my position. It had actually 0 effect, as you were hired by Blizzard to cast Hearthstone at Blizzcon. I only used President Obama as an example as he is the one the people will most recognize. While he criticized the surveillance of citizens and allies, he has done precisely the thing he criticized after he became the president. Similar to how you criticized the non region locked system of WCS, yet your team took advantage of it and used it once WCS started. Why have you not addressed my point about the other major tournaments doing similar things long before WCS started? You have not criticized them for not region locking as far as I'm aware. Oh man you are so bad at this whole debate thing. Your false equivalency is so glaring I'm shocked you can't see it yourself when everyone else has no problem spotting it miles away. Obama criticized surveillance then when coming to power he commited surveillance. TotalBiscuit criticised the lack of region-lock and when coming to power (lol) did not region-lock.... wait... he didn't have the power to region lock. The mental gymnastics you're having to go through to reach the conclusion that I'm somehow doing the very thing I'm criticising, which as a team-owner not a tournament provider is literally impossible (and I'm actually like the only tournament operator who IS region-locking his tournaments) are olympic level. I'd give you a solid 9 if you hadn't botched the landing. Let's repeat for the class. Criticising a tournament for lack of region lock while having your Korean players play in it is not hypocrisy, it is not double-standards and it is not ethically questionable. It is not a region-locked tournament. I might as well be sending them to Dreamhack, it'd have the exact same effect. They're all non-region locked events, there is currently no difference. Why am I not criticising other tournaments? Well gee that's not exactly a hard one, maybe it's because WCS is the dominant weekly format whereas all these other events are weekend warrior or online. The entire SC2 scene now revolves around WCS, everyone else has to play musical chairs with them in time to the music or be left out in the cold. WCS dictates how this scene now operates and has the biggest influence by far. Why would I criticize other tournaments? It's not their job to stimulate the regional scenes (yet there are plenty of them that do anyway btw, especially in Europe). It is WCS job and it's failing at it. The more I speak to you the more I'm convinced you're grasping at straws to desperately try and resolve some weird cognitive dissonance stuff in your head. If I was so bad at this whole debate thing, as you say. My post would not have gotten your attention. Ahh yes the good old housefly fallacy. "I'm good at this because you're paying attention to me!". No, you're no more better at holding my attention than a housefly is. It has my attention until I squash it, not because it has anything worthwhile to teach me. Also the assumption that making you see the error of your ways is the goal of this post and discussion. It isn't, you'll never convince someone on the internet that they're wrong. The aim of an argument online is to convince everyone else watching that the opposition is wrong, to discredit them in the eyes of the community. So far so good, since literally nobody here is agreeing with you so far. Everything else in your post was previously debunked, so you're wasting your time repeating it. See original post for counterargument to the whole "if your players weren't there" speculation. See previous definitions of hypocrisy and explanations as to why you're using the term incorrectly as well as reasoning why other tournaments are not comparable to WCS. How about you respond to what I write without resulting to a condescending manner? Well it's mostly because you're awful and horribly accusatory. Maybe if you hadn't thrown out wild accusations from the outset you'd have been treated with respect. I wouldn't have been the first person who accused you of something. Your incident with TaKe comes to mind... I can't really recall anyone who accused you of something that you treated with respect. Even someone like TaKe who has done so much for the scene. Didn't take threaten to sue his wife? if i was TB, i'd be upset as well. No, he was angry and he was implying that he hoped that there were consequences for publicizing private conversations.
I'm pretty sure he said "i could sue you for this" or something among those lines.
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Basically, if i can get this right, Junho_C is saying that TB is being a hypocrite by criticising the system by having his own players join WCS America (which potentially stifles the growth of 'American' players, which is what TB wants to do).
TB is saying don't hate the player, hate the way the whole thing is set out? He also brings up the point that if his players did not do WCS America, some other Koreans would in their place. Also, he doesn't like the system, but his players are set up in such a way that they do what they want to do, as in edit #2 below.
I'm a reddit lurker (your previous flair was FXO when it was the bull), but i'm more inclined to agree with TB on this one.
You're mad that he's using this criticism as publicity for his own tournament correct? But couldn't one argue that criticising the tournament draws more attention to Shoutcraft America which in turn, supports local regional gaming?
EDIT: i'm not trying to come across as condescending, I just want to clear it up a little so i know where to aim my pitchfork >:
EDIT #2: THANKS partydude89!
On November 15 2013 15:06 partydude89 wrote:
I also believe that he said in his opening statement that his players were free to do as they wish, and they WISHED to participate in WCS NA. He's not going to stop them if thats what they want to do, even if he doesn't like the system. he's allowed to be critical of the system because he's not participating into it, not even going into the fact that it has obvious flaws.
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On November 15 2013 14:55 partydude89 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 14:49 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:43 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 14:34 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:26 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 14:20 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:07 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 13:53 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 13:47 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 13:45 Junho.C wrote:
[quote]
Do you consider the millions of people's perspective bull shit? Many news articles have criticized president's Obama for taking actions that goes against the statements and promises before he became president. That is just among countless examples throughout history. Yes, those millions of people are past college age and quite educated.
I do support what you are doing to give exposure to the NA players, but your singling out Blizzard and WCS which has helped much to develop the scene while you are taking advantage of it is questionable at best. Especially when all the major tournaments in SC2 eSports have not region locked their tournaments while having the name of the region in their tournament name.
I am flabbergasted but not surprised that you would break out a ridiculous comparison like President Obama. People criticized his actions because he made promises he didn't keep (and or did the opposite of). I did not create WCS and have little if any power to change it. Pulling my players from WCS America would do precisely dick. Jeopardising my position as a caster by publicly criticising WCS on the other hand not only has some effect but is actually as a risk to me. Come back to me when you take risks for your beliefs. Then you might have a new appreciation for my position. It had actually 0 effect, as you were hired by Blizzard to cast Hearthstone at Blizzcon. I only used President Obama as an example as he is the one the people will most recognize. While he criticized the surveillance of citizens and allies, he has done precisely the thing he criticized after he became the president. Similar to how you criticized the non region locked system of WCS, yet your team took advantage of it and used it once WCS started. Why have you not addressed my point about the other major tournaments doing similar things long before WCS started? You have not criticized them for not region locking as far as I'm aware. Oh man you are so bad at this whole debate thing. Your false equivalency is so glaring I'm shocked you can't see it yourself when everyone else has no problem spotting it miles away. Obama criticized surveillance then when coming to power he commited surveillance. TotalBiscuit criticised the lack of region-lock and when coming to power (lol) did not region-lock.... wait... he didn't have the power to region lock. The mental gymnastics you're having to go through to reach the conclusion that I'm somehow doing the very thing I'm criticising, which as a team-owner not a tournament provider is literally impossible (and I'm actually like the only tournament operator who IS region-locking his tournaments) are olympic level. I'd give you a solid 9 if you hadn't botched the landing. Let's repeat for the class. Criticising a tournament for lack of region lock while having your Korean players play in it is not hypocrisy, it is not double-standards and it is not ethically questionable. It is not a region-locked tournament. I might as well be sending them to Dreamhack, it'd have the exact same effect. They're all non-region locked events, there is currently no difference. Why am I not criticising other tournaments? Well gee that's not exactly a hard one, maybe it's because WCS is the dominant weekly format whereas all these other events are weekend warrior or online. The entire SC2 scene now revolves around WCS, everyone else has to play musical chairs with them in time to the music or be left out in the cold. WCS dictates how this scene now operates and has the biggest influence by far. Why would I criticize other tournaments? It's not their job to stimulate the regional scenes (yet there are plenty of them that do anyway btw, especially in Europe). It is WCS job and it's failing at it. The more I speak to you the more I'm convinced you're grasping at straws to desperately try and resolve some weird cognitive dissonance stuff in your head. If I was so bad at this whole debate thing, as you say. My post would not have gotten your attention. Ahh yes the good old housefly fallacy. "I'm good at this because you're paying attention to me!". No, you're no more better at holding my attention than a housefly is. It has my attention until I squash it, not because it has anything worthwhile to teach me. Also the assumption that making you see the error of your ways is the goal of this post and discussion. It isn't, you'll never convince someone on the internet that they're wrong. The aim of an argument online is to convince everyone else watching that the opposition is wrong, to discredit them in the eyes of the community. So far so good, since literally nobody here is agreeing with you so far. Everything else in your post was previously debunked, so you're wasting your time repeating it. See original post for counterargument to the whole "if your players weren't there" speculation. See previous definitions of hypocrisy and explanations as to why you're using the term incorrectly as well as reasoning why other tournaments are not comparable to WCS. How about you respond to what I write without resulting to a condescending manner? Well it's mostly because you're awful and horribly accusatory. Maybe if you hadn't thrown out wild accusations from the outset you'd have been treated with respect. I wouldn't have been the first person who accused you of something. Your incident with TaKe comes to mind... I can't really recall anyone who accused you of something that you treated with respect. Even someone like TaKe who has done so much for the scene. Didn't take threaten to sue his wife? if i was TB, i'd be upset as well.
Yes, and actually without any reason. Legally electronic communication in Germany/Austria is always public as long as it's not declared explicit private. Even then it's more a common practice than rule.
HOWEVER TB did his usual protective overreacting - cause he never listens when I'm telling him to go to bed ;-).
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On November 15 2013 15:02 sunneh wrote:
Basically, if i can get this right, Junho_C is saying that TB is being a hypocrite by criticising the system by having his own players join WCS America (which potentially stifles the growth of 'American' players, which is what TB wants to do).
TB is saying don't hate the player, hate the way the whole thing is set out? He also brings up the point that if his players did not do WCS America, some other Koreans would in their place.
I'm a reddit lurker (your previous flair was FXO when it was the bull), but i'm more inclined to agree with TB on this one.
You're mad that he's using this criticism as publicity for his own tournament correct? But couldn't one argue that criticising the tournament draws more attention to Shoutcraft America which in turn, supports local regional gaming?
I also believe that he said in his opening statement that his players were free to do as they wish, and they WISHED to participate in WCS NA. He's not going to stop them if thats what they want to do, even if he doesn't like the system. he's allowed to be critical of the system because he's not participating into it, not even going into the fact that it has obvious flaws.
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On November 15 2013 15:02 partydude89 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 15:01 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:55 partydude89 wrote:On November 15 2013 14:49 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:43 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 14:34 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:26 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 14:20 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:07 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 13:53 Junho.C wrote:
[quote]
It had actually 0 effect, as you were hired by Blizzard to cast Hearthstone at Blizzcon. I only used President Obama as an example as he is the one the people will most recognize. While he criticized the surveillance of citizens and allies, he has done precisely the thing he criticized after he became the president. Similar to how you criticized the non region locked system of WCS, yet your team took advantage of it and used it once WCS started.
Why have you not addressed my point about the other major tournaments doing similar things long before WCS started? You have not criticized them for not region locking as far as I'm aware. Oh man you are so bad at this whole debate thing. Your false equivalency is so glaring I'm shocked you can't see it yourself when everyone else has no problem spotting it miles away. Obama criticized surveillance then when coming to power he commited surveillance. TotalBiscuit criticised the lack of region-lock and when coming to power (lol) did not region-lock.... wait... he didn't have the power to region lock. The mental gymnastics you're having to go through to reach the conclusion that I'm somehow doing the very thing I'm criticising, which as a team-owner not a tournament provider is literally impossible (and I'm actually like the only tournament operator who IS region-locking his tournaments) are olympic level. I'd give you a solid 9 if you hadn't botched the landing. Let's repeat for the class. Criticising a tournament for lack of region lock while having your Korean players play in it is not hypocrisy, it is not double-standards and it is not ethically questionable. It is not a region-locked tournament. I might as well be sending them to Dreamhack, it'd have the exact same effect. They're all non-region locked events, there is currently no difference. Why am I not criticising other tournaments? Well gee that's not exactly a hard one, maybe it's because WCS is the dominant weekly format whereas all these other events are weekend warrior or online. The entire SC2 scene now revolves around WCS, everyone else has to play musical chairs with them in time to the music or be left out in the cold. WCS dictates how this scene now operates and has the biggest influence by far. Why would I criticize other tournaments? It's not their job to stimulate the regional scenes (yet there are plenty of them that do anyway btw, especially in Europe). It is WCS job and it's failing at it. The more I speak to you the more I'm convinced you're grasping at straws to desperately try and resolve some weird cognitive dissonance stuff in your head. If I was so bad at this whole debate thing, as you say. My post would not have gotten your attention. Ahh yes the good old housefly fallacy. "I'm good at this because you're paying attention to me!". No, you're no more better at holding my attention than a housefly is. It has my attention until I squash it, not because it has anything worthwhile to teach me. Also the assumption that making you see the error of your ways is the goal of this post and discussion. It isn't, you'll never convince someone on the internet that they're wrong. The aim of an argument online is to convince everyone else watching that the opposition is wrong, to discredit them in the eyes of the community. So far so good, since literally nobody here is agreeing with you so far. Everything else in your post was previously debunked, so you're wasting your time repeating it. See original post for counterargument to the whole "if your players weren't there" speculation. See previous definitions of hypocrisy and explanations as to why you're using the term incorrectly as well as reasoning why other tournaments are not comparable to WCS. How about you respond to what I write without resulting to a condescending manner? Well it's mostly because you're awful and horribly accusatory. Maybe if you hadn't thrown out wild accusations from the outset you'd have been treated with respect. I wouldn't have been the first person who accused you of something. Your incident with TaKe comes to mind... I can't really recall anyone who accused you of something that you treated with respect. Even someone like TaKe who has done so much for the scene. Didn't take threaten to sue his wife? if i was TB, i'd be upset as well. No, he was angry and he was implying that he hoped that there were consequences for publicizing private conversations. I'm pretty sure he said "i could sue you for this" or something among those lines.
No, it was just an angry banter and he was basically saying there were real consequences for publicizing private conversations. TB overreacted and used social media to try to crucify TaKe. After the negative shitstorm that ensued for both sides, TB apologized, but the damage was already done to both.
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On November 15 2013 15:03 MaxiTB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 14:55 partydude89 wrote:On November 15 2013 14:49 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:43 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 14:34 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:26 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 14:20 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:07 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 13:53 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 13:47 TotalBiscuit wrote:
[quote]
I am flabbergasted but not surprised that you would break out a ridiculous comparison like President Obama.
People criticized his actions because he made promises he didn't keep (and or did the opposite of). I did not create WCS and have little if any power to change it. Pulling my players from WCS America would do precisely dick. Jeopardising my position as a caster by publicly criticising WCS on the other hand not only has some effect but is actually as a risk to me.
Come back to me when you take risks for your beliefs. Then you might have a new appreciation for my position. It had actually 0 effect, as you were hired by Blizzard to cast Hearthstone at Blizzcon. I only used President Obama as an example as he is the one the people will most recognize. While he criticized the surveillance of citizens and allies, he has done precisely the thing he criticized after he became the president. Similar to how you criticized the non region locked system of WCS, yet your team took advantage of it and used it once WCS started. Why have you not addressed my point about the other major tournaments doing similar things long before WCS started? You have not criticized them for not region locking as far as I'm aware. Oh man you are so bad at this whole debate thing. Your false equivalency is so glaring I'm shocked you can't see it yourself when everyone else has no problem spotting it miles away. Obama criticized surveillance then when coming to power he commited surveillance. TotalBiscuit criticised the lack of region-lock and when coming to power (lol) did not region-lock.... wait... he didn't have the power to region lock. The mental gymnastics you're having to go through to reach the conclusion that I'm somehow doing the very thing I'm criticising, which as a team-owner not a tournament provider is literally impossible (and I'm actually like the only tournament operator who IS region-locking his tournaments) are olympic level. I'd give you a solid 9 if you hadn't botched the landing. Let's repeat for the class. Criticising a tournament for lack of region lock while having your Korean players play in it is not hypocrisy, it is not double-standards and it is not ethically questionable. It is not a region-locked tournament. I might as well be sending them to Dreamhack, it'd have the exact same effect. They're all non-region locked events, there is currently no difference. Why am I not criticising other tournaments? Well gee that's not exactly a hard one, maybe it's because WCS is the dominant weekly format whereas all these other events are weekend warrior or online. The entire SC2 scene now revolves around WCS, everyone else has to play musical chairs with them in time to the music or be left out in the cold. WCS dictates how this scene now operates and has the biggest influence by far. Why would I criticize other tournaments? It's not their job to stimulate the regional scenes (yet there are plenty of them that do anyway btw, especially in Europe). It is WCS job and it's failing at it. The more I speak to you the more I'm convinced you're grasping at straws to desperately try and resolve some weird cognitive dissonance stuff in your head. If I was so bad at this whole debate thing, as you say. My post would not have gotten your attention. Ahh yes the good old housefly fallacy. "I'm good at this because you're paying attention to me!". No, you're no more better at holding my attention than a housefly is. It has my attention until I squash it, not because it has anything worthwhile to teach me. Also the assumption that making you see the error of your ways is the goal of this post and discussion. It isn't, you'll never convince someone on the internet that they're wrong. The aim of an argument online is to convince everyone else watching that the opposition is wrong, to discredit them in the eyes of the community. So far so good, since literally nobody here is agreeing with you so far. Everything else in your post was previously debunked, so you're wasting your time repeating it. See original post for counterargument to the whole "if your players weren't there" speculation. See previous definitions of hypocrisy and explanations as to why you're using the term incorrectly as well as reasoning why other tournaments are not comparable to WCS. How about you respond to what I write without resulting to a condescending manner? Well it's mostly because you're awful and horribly accusatory. Maybe if you hadn't thrown out wild accusations from the outset you'd have been treated with respect. I wouldn't have been the first person who accused you of something. Your incident with TaKe comes to mind... I can't really recall anyone who accused you of something that you treated with respect. Even someone like TaKe who has done so much for the scene. Didn't take threaten to sue his wife? if i was TB, i'd be upset as well. Yes, and actually without any reason. Legally electronic communication in Germany/Austria is always public as long as it's not declared explicit private. Even then it's more a common practice than rule. HOWEVER TB did his usual protective overreacting - cause he never listens when I'm telling him to go to bed ;-).
Hey, in my opinion, when it's your wife being threatened, the chains are off.
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On November 15 2013 15:07 Junho.C wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 15:02 partydude89 wrote:On November 15 2013 15:01 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:55 partydude89 wrote:On November 15 2013 14:49 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:43 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 14:34 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:26 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 14:20 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:07 TotalBiscuit wrote:
[quote]
Oh man you are so bad at this whole debate thing. Your false equivalency is so glaring I'm shocked you can't see it yourself when everyone else has no problem spotting it miles away. Obama criticized surveillance then when coming to power he commited surveillance. TotalBiscuit criticised the lack of region-lock and when coming to power (lol) did not region-lock.... wait... he didn't have the power to region lock. The mental gymnastics you're having to go through to reach the conclusion that I'm somehow doing the very thing I'm criticising, which as a team-owner not a tournament provider is literally impossible (and I'm actually like the only tournament operator who IS region-locking his tournaments) are olympic level. I'd give you a solid 9 if you hadn't botched the landing.
Let's repeat for the class. Criticising a tournament for lack of region lock while having your Korean players play in it is not hypocrisy, it is not double-standards and it is not ethically questionable. It is not a region-locked tournament. I might as well be sending them to Dreamhack, it'd have the exact same effect. They're all non-region locked events, there is currently no difference. Why am I not criticising other tournaments? Well gee that's not exactly a hard one, maybe it's because WCS is the dominant weekly format whereas all these other events are weekend warrior or online. The entire SC2 scene now revolves around WCS, everyone else has to play musical chairs with them in time to the music or be left out in the cold. WCS dictates how this scene now operates and has the biggest influence by far. Why would I criticize other tournaments? It's not their job to stimulate the regional scenes (yet there are plenty of them that do anyway btw, especially in Europe). It is WCS job and it's failing at it.
The more I speak to you the more I'm convinced you're grasping at straws to desperately try and resolve some weird cognitive dissonance stuff in your head.
If I was so bad at this whole debate thing, as you say. My post would not have gotten your attention. Ahh yes the good old housefly fallacy. "I'm good at this because you're paying attention to me!". No, you're no more better at holding my attention than a housefly is. It has my attention until I squash it, not because it has anything worthwhile to teach me. Also the assumption that making you see the error of your ways is the goal of this post and discussion. It isn't, you'll never convince someone on the internet that they're wrong. The aim of an argument online is to convince everyone else watching that the opposition is wrong, to discredit them in the eyes of the community. So far so good, since literally nobody here is agreeing with you so far. Everything else in your post was previously debunked, so you're wasting your time repeating it. See original post for counterargument to the whole "if your players weren't there" speculation. See previous definitions of hypocrisy and explanations as to why you're using the term incorrectly as well as reasoning why other tournaments are not comparable to WCS. How about you respond to what I write without resulting to a condescending manner? Well it's mostly because you're awful and horribly accusatory. Maybe if you hadn't thrown out wild accusations from the outset you'd have been treated with respect. I wouldn't have been the first person who accused you of something. Your incident with TaKe comes to mind... I can't really recall anyone who accused you of something that you treated with respect. Even someone like TaKe who has done so much for the scene. Didn't take threaten to sue his wife? if i was TB, i'd be upset as well. No, he was angry and he was implying that he hoped that there were consequences for publicizing private conversations. I'm pretty sure he said "i could sue you for this" or something among those lines. No, it was just an angry banter and he was basically saying there were real consequences for publicizing private conversations. TB overreacted and used social media to try to crucify TaKe. After the negative shitstorm that ensued for both sides, TB apologized, but the damage was already done to both.
No. your wrong. he did threaten to sue.
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On November 15 2013 15:07 partydude89 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 15:03 MaxiTB wrote:On November 15 2013 14:55 partydude89 wrote:On November 15 2013 14:49 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:43 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 14:34 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:26 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 14:20 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:07 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 13:53 Junho.C wrote:
[quote]
It had actually 0 effect, as you were hired by Blizzard to cast Hearthstone at Blizzcon. I only used President Obama as an example as he is the one the people will most recognize. While he criticized the surveillance of citizens and allies, he has done precisely the thing he criticized after he became the president. Similar to how you criticized the non region locked system of WCS, yet your team took advantage of it and used it once WCS started.
Why have you not addressed my point about the other major tournaments doing similar things long before WCS started? You have not criticized them for not region locking as far as I'm aware. Oh man you are so bad at this whole debate thing. Your false equivalency is so glaring I'm shocked you can't see it yourself when everyone else has no problem spotting it miles away. Obama criticized surveillance then when coming to power he commited surveillance. TotalBiscuit criticised the lack of region-lock and when coming to power (lol) did not region-lock.... wait... he didn't have the power to region lock. The mental gymnastics you're having to go through to reach the conclusion that I'm somehow doing the very thing I'm criticising, which as a team-owner not a tournament provider is literally impossible (and I'm actually like the only tournament operator who IS region-locking his tournaments) are olympic level. I'd give you a solid 9 if you hadn't botched the landing. Let's repeat for the class. Criticising a tournament for lack of region lock while having your Korean players play in it is not hypocrisy, it is not double-standards and it is not ethically questionable. It is not a region-locked tournament. I might as well be sending them to Dreamhack, it'd have the exact same effect. They're all non-region locked events, there is currently no difference. Why am I not criticising other tournaments? Well gee that's not exactly a hard one, maybe it's because WCS is the dominant weekly format whereas all these other events are weekend warrior or online. The entire SC2 scene now revolves around WCS, everyone else has to play musical chairs with them in time to the music or be left out in the cold. WCS dictates how this scene now operates and has the biggest influence by far. Why would I criticize other tournaments? It's not their job to stimulate the regional scenes (yet there are plenty of them that do anyway btw, especially in Europe). It is WCS job and it's failing at it. The more I speak to you the more I'm convinced you're grasping at straws to desperately try and resolve some weird cognitive dissonance stuff in your head. If I was so bad at this whole debate thing, as you say. My post would not have gotten your attention. Ahh yes the good old housefly fallacy. "I'm good at this because you're paying attention to me!". No, you're no more better at holding my attention than a housefly is. It has my attention until I squash it, not because it has anything worthwhile to teach me. Also the assumption that making you see the error of your ways is the goal of this post and discussion. It isn't, you'll never convince someone on the internet that they're wrong. The aim of an argument online is to convince everyone else watching that the opposition is wrong, to discredit them in the eyes of the community. So far so good, since literally nobody here is agreeing with you so far. Everything else in your post was previously debunked, so you're wasting your time repeating it. See original post for counterargument to the whole "if your players weren't there" speculation. See previous definitions of hypocrisy and explanations as to why you're using the term incorrectly as well as reasoning why other tournaments are not comparable to WCS. How about you respond to what I write without resulting to a condescending manner? Well it's mostly because you're awful and horribly accusatory. Maybe if you hadn't thrown out wild accusations from the outset you'd have been treated with respect. I wouldn't have been the first person who accused you of something. Your incident with TaKe comes to mind... I can't really recall anyone who accused you of something that you treated with respect. Even someone like TaKe who has done so much for the scene. Didn't take threaten to sue his wife? if i was TB, i'd be upset as well. Yes, and actually without any reason. Legally electronic communication in Germany/Austria is always public as long as it's not declared explicit private. Even then it's more a common practice than rule. HOWEVER TB did his usual protective overreacting - cause he never listens when I'm telling him to go to bed ;-). Hey, in my opinion, when it's your wife being threatened, the chains are off.
Yeah, but that's not the point. It's not professional to behave like that and he apologized for it.
The reddit community never did so tho, even they were the main reason why this all blow up at all.
But OTOH, that's what reddit is good for ... and as a TYCSR (temporary youtube comment system replacement).
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On November 15 2013 15:07 Junho.C wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 15:02 partydude89 wrote:On November 15 2013 15:01 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:55 partydude89 wrote:On November 15 2013 14:49 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:43 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 14:34 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:26 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 14:20 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:07 TotalBiscuit wrote:
[quote]
Oh man you are so bad at this whole debate thing. Your false equivalency is so glaring I'm shocked you can't see it yourself when everyone else has no problem spotting it miles away. Obama criticized surveillance then when coming to power he commited surveillance. TotalBiscuit criticised the lack of region-lock and when coming to power (lol) did not region-lock.... wait... he didn't have the power to region lock. The mental gymnastics you're having to go through to reach the conclusion that I'm somehow doing the very thing I'm criticising, which as a team-owner not a tournament provider is literally impossible (and I'm actually like the only tournament operator who IS region-locking his tournaments) are olympic level. I'd give you a solid 9 if you hadn't botched the landing.
Let's repeat for the class. Criticising a tournament for lack of region lock while having your Korean players play in it is not hypocrisy, it is not double-standards and it is not ethically questionable. It is not a region-locked tournament. I might as well be sending them to Dreamhack, it'd have the exact same effect. They're all non-region locked events, there is currently no difference. Why am I not criticising other tournaments? Well gee that's not exactly a hard one, maybe it's because WCS is the dominant weekly format whereas all these other events are weekend warrior or online. The entire SC2 scene now revolves around WCS, everyone else has to play musical chairs with them in time to the music or be left out in the cold. WCS dictates how this scene now operates and has the biggest influence by far. Why would I criticize other tournaments? It's not their job to stimulate the regional scenes (yet there are plenty of them that do anyway btw, especially in Europe). It is WCS job and it's failing at it.
The more I speak to you the more I'm convinced you're grasping at straws to desperately try and resolve some weird cognitive dissonance stuff in your head.
If I was so bad at this whole debate thing, as you say. My post would not have gotten your attention. Ahh yes the good old housefly fallacy. "I'm good at this because you're paying attention to me!". No, you're no more better at holding my attention than a housefly is. It has my attention until I squash it, not because it has anything worthwhile to teach me. Also the assumption that making you see the error of your ways is the goal of this post and discussion. It isn't, you'll never convince someone on the internet that they're wrong. The aim of an argument online is to convince everyone else watching that the opposition is wrong, to discredit them in the eyes of the community. So far so good, since literally nobody here is agreeing with you so far. Everything else in your post was previously debunked, so you're wasting your time repeating it. See original post for counterargument to the whole "if your players weren't there" speculation. See previous definitions of hypocrisy and explanations as to why you're using the term incorrectly as well as reasoning why other tournaments are not comparable to WCS. How about you respond to what I write without resulting to a condescending manner? Well it's mostly because you're awful and horribly accusatory. Maybe if you hadn't thrown out wild accusations from the outset you'd have been treated with respect. I wouldn't have been the first person who accused you of something. Your incident with TaKe comes to mind... I can't really recall anyone who accused you of something that you treated with respect. Even someone like TaKe who has done so much for the scene. Didn't take threaten to sue his wife? if i was TB, i'd be upset as well. No, he was angry and he was implying that he hoped that there were consequences for publicizing private conversations. I'm pretty sure he said "i could sue you for this" or something among those lines. No, it was just an angry banter and he was basically saying there were real consequences for publicizing private conversations. TB overreacted and used social media to try to crucify TaKe. After the negative shitstorm that ensued for both sides, TB apologized, but the damage was already done to both.
Dude I like that you have an opinion and everything but unless you were the one being threatened your opinion means pretty much dick. The chatlog is open for everyone to see. Gloves come off when you threaten my family, express or implied. You do not wish "something to happen legally" to someones wife and expect them to politely say "oh yes, that's an entirely reasonable reaction". Do I regret that shitstorm? Absolutely, it was damaging to both sides. Did I apologise? Absolutely, because it was the right thing to do and so did he. Do I stand by the idea that defending my family was the right thing to do? Fuck yes. I would take a bullet for my family, I can sure as hell take a few shitbirds trashtalking me on the internet.
I'm still waiting for the apology from the community. It will never come. The "community" (and I use that term loosely because that really means the vocal minority) is very good at smashing the people who build the pillars they stand on and then wondering why things have become less stable.
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I've never had a problem with Axiom. I love the play of words in the first sentence.
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On November 15 2013 15:02 sunneh wrote:
Basically, if i can get this right, Junho_C is saying that TB is being a hypocrite by criticising the system by having his own players join WCS America (which potentially stifles the growth of 'American' players, which is what TB wants to do).
TB is saying don't hate the player, hate the way the whole thing is set out? He also brings up the point that if his players did not do WCS America, some other Koreans would in their place.
I'm a reddit lurker (your previous flair was FXO when it was the bull), but i'm more inclined to agree with TB on this one.
You're mad that he's using this criticism as publicity for his own tournament correct? But couldn't one argue that criticising the tournament draws more attention to Shoutcraft America which in turn, supports local regional gaming?
EDIT: i'm not trying to come across as condescending, I just want to clear it up a little so i know where to aim my pitchfork >:
I'm not mad. I just think it's wrong to criticize a system he's taking advantage of so much for his personal gain. Even before the current Shoutcraft, he's criticize the WCS and Blizzard for views and attention all year. I wouldn't have a problem with it if he did it rarely or did it just to promote this tournament, which may support the regional NA gaming.
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On November 15 2013 15:15 Junho.C wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 15:02 sunneh wrote:
Basically, if i can get this right, Junho_C is saying that TB is being a hypocrite by criticising the system by having his own players join WCS America (which potentially stifles the growth of 'American' players, which is what TB wants to do).
TB is saying don't hate the player, hate the way the whole thing is set out? He also brings up the point that if his players did not do WCS America, some other Koreans would in their place.
I'm a reddit lurker (your previous flair was FXO when it was the bull), but i'm more inclined to agree with TB on this one.
You're mad that he's using this criticism as publicity for his own tournament correct? But couldn't one argue that criticising the tournament draws more attention to Shoutcraft America which in turn, supports local regional gaming?
EDIT: i'm not trying to come across as condescending, I just want to clear it up a little so i know where to aim my pitchfork >: I'm not mad. I just think it's wrong to criticize a system he's taking advantage of so much for his personal gain.
Apparently "my personal gain" is $10k in the hole every month.
My concern is the gain of my players. My personal gain is not a factor. SC2 as a whole is a gigantic loss for me and it has been since Day 1, I'd be better off from a business standpoint abandoning it entirely. I won't though, primarily because I love this game too much to do that but also because I'm a stubborn fucker and won't be shoved out by anyone.
Someone said that before you criticise someone you should walk a mile in their shoes, but I'm pretty convinced that all some people such as yourself want to do is steal my shoes.
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On November 15 2013 15:13 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 15:07 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 15:02 partydude89 wrote:On November 15 2013 15:01 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:55 partydude89 wrote:On November 15 2013 14:49 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:43 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 14:34 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 14:26 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 14:20 Junho.C wrote:
[quote]
If I was so bad at this whole debate thing, as you say. My post would not have gotten your attention.
Ahh yes the good old housefly fallacy. "I'm good at this because you're paying attention to me!". No, you're no more better at holding my attention than a housefly is. It has my attention until I squash it, not because it has anything worthwhile to teach me. Also the assumption that making you see the error of your ways is the goal of this post and discussion. It isn't, you'll never convince someone on the internet that they're wrong. The aim of an argument online is to convince everyone else watching that the opposition is wrong, to discredit them in the eyes of the community. So far so good, since literally nobody here is agreeing with you so far. Everything else in your post was previously debunked, so you're wasting your time repeating it. See original post for counterargument to the whole "if your players weren't there" speculation. See previous definitions of hypocrisy and explanations as to why you're using the term incorrectly as well as reasoning why other tournaments are not comparable to WCS. How about you respond to what I write without resulting to a condescending manner? Well it's mostly because you're awful and horribly accusatory. Maybe if you hadn't thrown out wild accusations from the outset you'd have been treated with respect. I wouldn't have been the first person who accused you of something. Your incident with TaKe comes to mind... I can't really recall anyone who accused you of something that you treated with respect. Even someone like TaKe who has done so much for the scene. Didn't take threaten to sue his wife? if i was TB, i'd be upset as well. No, he was angry and he was implying that he hoped that there were consequences for publicizing private conversations. I'm pretty sure he said "i could sue you for this" or something among those lines. No, it was just an angry banter and he was basically saying there were real consequences for publicizing private conversations. TB overreacted and used social media to try to crucify TaKe. After the negative shitstorm that ensued for both sides, TB apologized, but the damage was already done to both. Dude I like that you have an opinion and everything but unless you were the one being threatened your opinion means pretty much dick. The chatlog is open for everyone to see. Gloves come off when you threaten my family, express or implied. You do not wish "something to happen legally" to someones wife and expect them to politely say "oh yes, that's an entirely reasonable reaction". Do I regret that shitstorm? Absolutely, it was damaging to both sides. Did I apologise? Absolutely, because it was the right thing to do and so did he. Do I stand by the idea that defending my family was the right thing to do? Fuck yes. I would take a bullet for my family, I can sure as hell take a few shitbirds trashtalking me on the internet. I'm still waiting for the apology from the community. It will never come. The "community" (and I use that term loosely because that really means the vocal minority) is very good at smashing the people who build the pillars they stand on and then wondering why things have become less stable.
Why couldn't handle the argument within closed doors like normal people? Instead you even used that argument for publicity.
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On November 15 2013 15:15 Junho.C wrote:
I'm not mad. I just think it's wrong to criticize a system he's taking advantage of so much for his personal gain.
You know that team Axiom is a financial loss for TB, right ?
And shoutcraft is paid by his twitch subscriber income ?
No offense part two, but you make no sense. Like at all.
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as i was reading this in my head the tiny voice changed to TB's voice
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8751 Posts
5/5
BTW, junho is not worth the attention until he specifies a better way to behave that benefits more people and improves the system as a whole. And even then, his negative attitude toward TB certainly isn't warranted. Even if TB hasn't acted optimally, he's still acted positively to the best of his abilities. As far as I can tell, with Axiom he (and Genna) took "faceless Koreans" and made them recognizable personalities, which is a net positive for the SC2 scene as a whole. With Shoutcraft America, he's fostering competition in the US, which is a net positive for the SC2 scene as a whole. With his criticism of WCS, he's doing his duty as a knowledgeable member of the community to contribute to the discussion of what's best for the scene, which is a net positive for the SC2 scene as a whole. That's all he does is contribute to the SC2 scene when he could be making more money and gaining more fans with non-SC2 endeavors. It is absurd to look for contradictions within his contributions to the SC2 scene as if we should care at all.
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On November 15 2013 15:18 Junho.C wrote:
Why couldn't handle the argument within closed doors like normal people? Instead you even used that argument for publicity.
This is not "educate Junho on everything he doesn't understand" evening. You're asking a bunch of dumb questions that you would know the answer to if you knew the situation surrounding what happened rather than just vague recollections or second-hand hearsay.
"You used that argument for publicity". Are you shitting me? We were fucking crucified for trying to be transparent with the community about the situation. Oh the calls for transparency, the community LOOOOVESSS transparency. They worship the ground Richard Lewis walks on because of all the transparency and accountability he's bringing to the scene but oh, when it happens to someone we like, then PRIVACY IS KING. You want to talk about double standards? Let's start right there. Using Skype conversations to provide context to a situation to make sure the community knew exactly what was going on, came back to bite us in the ass and taught us a very valuable lesson. The community only wants transparency when its convenient for them and some of them, yourself included, don't bother to avail yourself of the facts before making accusations of people.
I gotta ask, considering you've stated you don't have time to watch my videos, yet you seem to have plenty of time to argue with me, why you aren't devoting your energies to doing something positive and useful within the scene. You seem to have plenty of time to kill and you're convinced of your own expertise. Bloody well do something, makes a damn difference.
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On November 15 2013 15:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 15:15 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 15:02 sunneh wrote:
Basically, if i can get this right, Junho_C is saying that TB is being a hypocrite by criticising the system by having his own players join WCS America (which potentially stifles the growth of 'American' players, which is what TB wants to do).
TB is saying don't hate the player, hate the way the whole thing is set out? He also brings up the point that if his players did not do WCS America, some other Koreans would in their place.
I'm a reddit lurker (your previous flair was FXO when it was the bull), but i'm more inclined to agree with TB on this one.
You're mad that he's using this criticism as publicity for his own tournament correct? But couldn't one argue that criticising the tournament draws more attention to Shoutcraft America which in turn, supports local regional gaming?
EDIT: i'm not trying to come across as condescending, I just want to clear it up a little so i know where to aim my pitchfork >: I'm not mad. I just think it's wrong to criticize a system he's taking advantage of so much for his personal gain. Apparently "my personal gain" is $10k in the hole every month. My concern is the gain of my players. My personal gain is not a factor. SC2 as a whole is a gigantic loss for me and it has been since Day 1, I'd be better off from a business standpoint abandoning it entirely. I won't though, primarily because I love this game too much to do that but also because I'm a stubborn fucker and won't be shoved out by anyone. Someone said that before you criticise someone you should walk a mile in their shoes, but I'm pretty convinced that all some people such as yourself want to do is steal my shoes.
$10K in the hole every month from only the cost of running the team, perhaps. But your Youtube channel and other forms of revenue have also benefited much from it. I'm not saying that you may not be making a net profit, but if you claimed to want to support the NA scene, without personal gain, as much as you claimed to, why not form a team within U.S. and have few Korean players like other teams NA based teams do?
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On November 15 2013 15:23 Junho.C wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 15:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 15:15 Junho.C wrote:On November 15 2013 15:02 sunneh wrote:
Basically, if i can get this right, Junho_C is saying that TB is being a hypocrite by criticising the system by having his own players join WCS America (which potentially stifles the growth of 'American' players, which is what TB wants to do).
TB is saying don't hate the player, hate the way the whole thing is set out? He also brings up the point that if his players did not do WCS America, some other Koreans would in their place.
I'm a reddit lurker (your previous flair was FXO when it was the bull), but i'm more inclined to agree with TB on this one.
You're mad that he's using this criticism as publicity for his own tournament correct? But couldn't one argue that criticising the tournament draws more attention to Shoutcraft America which in turn, supports local regional gaming?
EDIT: i'm not trying to come across as condescending, I just want to clear it up a little so i know where to aim my pitchfork >: I'm not mad. I just think it's wrong to criticize a system he's taking advantage of so much for his personal gain. Apparently "my personal gain" is $10k in the hole every month. My concern is the gain of my players. My personal gain is not a factor. SC2 as a whole is a gigantic loss for me and it has been since Day 1, I'd be better off from a business standpoint abandoning it entirely. I won't though, primarily because I love this game too much to do that but also because I'm a stubborn fucker and won't be shoved out by anyone. Someone said that before you criticise someone you should walk a mile in their shoes, but I'm pretty convinced that all some people such as yourself want to do is steal my shoes. $10K in the hole every month, perhaps. But your Youtube channel and other forms of revenue have also benefited much from it. I'm not saying that you may not be making a net profit, but if you claimed to want to support the NA scene, without personal gain, as much as you claimed to, why not form a team within U.S. and have few Korean players like other teams NA based teams do?
Hi, you do not know a single thing about how my business operates, please stop pretending. My Youtube channel and "other forms of revenue" have not benefited at all from it. I had to move my Starcraft stuff off my main channel because it was actually harming it through content oversaturation and a niche interest in Starcraft vs my other stuff. Starcraft is a net, objective, quantifiable loss for my business, to the point where my accountant is asking me why the fuck I'm doing it.
This is actually really useful because you're playing the role of someone who quite literally seems to know nothing about what I do and I can use this for reference in future when anyone asks for specifics about how my business operates.
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EPT
