EPT
You try to criticize TB with the same arguments over and over while TB counters you with a new argument every time and now you try to go offtopic by bringing up TaKe?
Better stop now, IMO
Killing WCS America and also ESPORTS probably - Page 6
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trebbor
Netherlands35 Posts
You try to criticize TB with the same arguments over and over while TB counters you with a new argument every time and now you try to go offtopic by bringing up TaKe? Better stop now, IMO | ||
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Prof
Canada60 Posts
On November 15 2013 17:45 trebbor wrote: Damn Junho.C, you must be the biggest troll of TB! You try to criticize TB with the same arguments over and over while TB counters you with a new argument every time and now you try to go offtopic by bringing up TaKe? Better stop now, IMO 100% correct summary of the situation! | ||
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Celios
Canada5 Posts
On November 15 2013 15:15 Junho.C wrote: I'm not mad. I just think it's wrong to criticize a system he's taking advantage of so much for his personal gain. Even before the current Shoutcraft, he's criticize the WCS and Blizzard for views and attention all year. I wouldn't have a problem with it if he did it rarely or did it just to promote this tournament, which may support the regional NA gaming. I haven't kept up with SC2 in a while, but this thread (and you in particular) have riled me a bit. It's pretty regrettable that anyone would demand less honest discourse from people like TB, who are in the best position to understand what is wrong with the scene and obviously care a great deal about it (or why lose money on it?) Refusing to acknowledge problems is a terrible way of "coping" with them; I think it reflects well on TB that he is willing to call attention to the issues (as he sees them), even at some professional risk. Running a team is clearly something the guy is doing out of passion. Maybe you don't like what he has to say, but take a moment to realize that if you drive people like him out, there won't be anyone left willing to take losses while fighting for improvement. Someone more "professional" probably wouldn't criticize publicly, but he also would have quit (or taken his team to LoL) a long time ago. On November 15 2013 15:25 TotalBiscuit wrote: This is actually really useful because you're playing the role of someone who quite literally seems to know nothing about what I do and I can use this for reference in future when anyone asks for specifics about how my business operates. To be honest, I don't see why you are bothering to devote time and effort to this "argument." You made a good case, so engaging with someone who isn't even addressing your post is just gonna serve to piss you off, waste your time and encourage others to do the same thing to get a rise out of you in the future. | ||
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
(thats a joke!) Oh also i liked your analogies you used about football, should help everyone understand what you are meaning. Unless they really are dumb or trolls then don't bother reading what they have to say... Keep up your good work and i look forward to seeing HuK win the NA tournament :D | ||
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aslejoh
Norway96 Posts
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MaxiTB
Austria34 Posts
On November 15 2013 17:59 Pandemona wrote: Keep up your good work and i look forward to seeing HuK win the NA tournament :D Dude, no offense to HuK, but most of his tournament days had at least one show highlight - sometimes stuff for history books. Everyone remembers those super effective VRs vs IdrA, nobody remembers who won MLG Dallas 2011. Stories make a sport interesting to watch, not money, presentation or high level gameplay ;-). | ||
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RenSC2
United States1080 Posts
Junho initially seemed to be looking at the situation through a hyper-idealized lens. Let's start with these two facts: 1) Totalbiscuit doesn't like cross-region WCS. 2) Cross-region WCS is the reality that Blizzard created. In a hyper-idealized world, you reject something you disagree with, even to your own detriment. A hyper-idealized team would not use the WCS AM that they believe they should be locked out of, and might even boycott the WCS completely for having a poor system that others take advantage of. Doing this would speak the loudest and encourage the most change. TB's team is not following the hyper-idealized model. Instead, TB's team has chosen to use Cross-Region WCS to give his players their best possible chance to succeed while criticizing the system that his team takes advantage of. Through hyper-idealized lenses, this situation seems like TB is giving up his moral high ground and has lost his right to complain about the system. However, rather than hypocrisy, what this is really called is living in reality. In reality, you have to make choices that you may not fully agree with. You choose the least of the evils. TB has chosen to give his players the best chance to succeed within the system. Meanwhile, he'll continue to talk about something he feels is wrong with the system, even as he takes advantage of it. This way, his team will succeed in the short term while he encourages the system to be fixed in the long term. Win-Win. So I get where Junho.C is coming from, but it's just too idealized, not living in reality. It reminds me of the arguments that people make about how players and casters should be playing/casting for the love of the game and not making any money at all. However, now it seems like he's resorting to bringing anything/everything else into the argument to try to save face and that's very poor behavior. I can't defend that part. | ||
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
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ZodaSoda
Australia1191 Posts
Take a prozac or 6 and RELAX + Show Spoiler + If you reply to this or feel the urge to reply to this, That is the opposite of Relaxing | ||
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Ballack
Norway821 Posts
TB does not have the power to change the WCS policy of 2013. He did, however, have an opportunity to dictate the format of his tournament, and guess what, they conform with the opinions he has presented all year. It is obvious that he could make more money if he invited fan-favorites from Europe and Korea, but he elected not to do so to help the American scene. That pretty much fucks over your argument of "he doesn't put his money where his mouth is", because that is exactly what he's doing with Shoutcraft America. That you don't like the fact that he didn't tell his players to stay away from WCS America matters little, as he has valid arguments for how he acted in that regard. But you can pretty much ignore the previous paragraph of my post, because it doesn't matter at all. Whether or not he is being hypocritical (which he obviously isn't), what he's doing is for the better in every sense for the Starcraft community. Why would you keep criticizing him for a little detail when you can easily observe what great contributions he brings to the Starcraft 2? Even if you could see a slight hypocrisy there, why does it hold the least bit of relevance? He is doing a 5k tournament, prize money that literally wouldn't exist if it wasn't for him (and his sponsor). I just continue to be amazed how some people can not keep themselves from focusing on any and every single perceived negative action/or statement. It's just so obvious with this Junho.C, when his argument about Axiom in WCS America was fizzled out, he jumped onto the next case being the TB/Take situation. He doesn't like TB and wants to make anti-TB posts. The gray areas are painted black so that you can have your little outcry. I just hope these people don't make community figures scale back their transparency (something which TB is exceptional) at, because I like that a lot. And I'm not talking about the Starcraft community like it is any more unique than any other gaming community. These people exist everywhere. | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On November 15 2013 18:24 MaxiTB wrote: Dude, no offense to HuK, but most of his tournament days had at least one show highlight - sometimes stuff for history books. Everyone remembers those super effective VRs vs IdrA, nobody remembers who won MLG Dallas 2011. Stories make a sport interesting to watch, not money, presentation or high level gameplay ;-). Yeah but he has won the last 3 NA only tournaments or something? They were qualifiers etc, since Scarlett took her break HuK has pretty much cleaned up, he clearly is the best protoss in NA, the reason i say it | ||
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Ariovist
Germany430 Posts
As for criticising Blizzard - TB is one of the fwe people who are doing that also partly because he is in the position to be able to do that. Apart from the fact that critic is part of a good working environment, if for some reason Blizzard would not hire him anymore, he actually would do just fine with his channel. Other people in the scene depend very much so on the image they have and it seems this does not let them be honest or outspoken publicly. I love the fact that TB is investing so much into SC2 despite all those immature Fan-comments that are around here - I also love the fact that he supports players because they are good and work hard and not because they sell well to a western audience - here you can really see what his work is about (quite the opposite to teams like EG that were mentioned in here). Everything else he does follows this principle I feel. Keep up the great work, loving your work since back in the day when I saw your announcement trailer about casting during Dreamhack winter in 2010 : ) Sometimes you ramble on too much with those trolls though - here and there a comment as you did is good, but going on with it is giving those people too much credit. | ||
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thezanursic
5497 Posts
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arie3000
153 Posts
Yes, I was also highly critical of how TB handled the Take situation, but that does not invalidate his position on WCS, lol. 2 completely different things, keep on-topic. What TB is doing does normally not fall under hypocrisy. I am very critical of my country's current system of allowing people to subtract their mortgage interest from their income - inflating house prices, and 'forcing' people to buy houses, and making renting a place ~70-100% more expensive then buying. However, if I would buy a house now, would I accept this tax-reduction? Hell yes. This is a very similar situation, where regulation exist that I'm very critical off, but that could be beneficial to myself, even if I see it damaging to our society as a whole... If Axiom would not have participated in WCS NA, it would NOT have caused a sudden urge in NA players being able to compete over there. It just would have been other Koreans who would have taken their places. To think that 4 players would really have made a difference is either naive or stupid, I'll let you choose. You can also turn the argument around, and say that he's the opposite of hypocrite: Even though his team is profiting from the current rules, the TeamBoss is still concerned with the NA (and EU, I guess) scene, and is willing to take a stance that is potentially bad for his team, but good for the scene as a whole. You normally don't call this hypocritical, but courageous and selfless. | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
Your blog was quite clear. I would love you not to bring back your old habbits of being angry on internet as you said you'll try to not do anymore after the whole Take thing. I'm not telling you that you aren't right to post this and argument with someone, but i see you getting angrier with every posts that Junho make. I can't blame you for it but he will not stop. I think you prove your point and that it's not worth responding to him anymore. But you could update the OP with the new facts that you brought since the argument i started (but maybe you don't have the time). You are awesome. You made efforts since a few months to be really professional (i don't see WCS critics as unprofessional). Please stay that way (i just have fear that with getting angrier at Junho's posts you might slip and say something that isn't the new you) Best regards to you. | ||
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mikkmagro
Malta1513 Posts
a) He's helping the Korean scene but investing hundreds of thousands of dollars to have his own team; b) Investing several thousands of dollars as well as a load of his own time to help to North American scene through shoutcraft; c) Whilst being neither Korean, nor American, he's BRITISH. I can understand an argument against region-locking of WCS, when WCS Korea is so much weaker than it was, but any argument against any form of regional competition is outright stupid and dumb. | ||
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Terran1234
8 Posts
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 15 2013 19:13 Ariovist wrote: Hypocrisy involves CHOICE to do sth against your own moral standards. First of all, to compete in WCS NA is the choice of the players, who will always choose in the way that benefit them - obviously because this is their job. If you want to look for hypocrisy, as apparently some people really love to, you can look at blizzard. At their initial announcement of the new WCS system for 2013 they said they want to unify the SC2 system and strengthen and support regional Starcraft scenes. They did the opposite - WCS killed alot of the good things we had going, e.g. MLGs, IronSquid, NASL - and now they are trying to repair it. . I would just like to mention that Iron Squid's disappearance had nothing to do with Blizzard and that NASL ran WCS. We don't yet know if there'll be another season of NASL, but I recall it being mentioned as a possibility. | ||
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Ariovist
Germany430 Posts
On November 15 2013 20:20 Zealously wrote: I would just like to mention that Iron Squid's disappearance had nothing to do with Blizzard and that NASL ran WCS. We don't yet know if there'll be another season of NASL, but I recall it being mentioned as a possibility. I agree, though imagine WCS would have been run like last year - we definitely would have had a "proper" NASL. After years of struggling they finally figured out their niche and did very well in that. The WCS production was good, but it felt very much so stream-lined to the other WCS events; the unique feeling of NASL got lost - don't you agree? About Iron Squid, well I am just assuming in it of course - was there an official statement? For me it just stands for the fact that WCS basically sealed the surface of the whole year so that nothing new or innovative could have been sprouting up, e.g. like Iron Squid. | ||
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mikkmagro
Malta1513 Posts
On November 15 2013 20:25 Ariovist wrote: I agree, though imagine WCS would have been run like last year - we definitely would have had a "proper" NASL. After years of struggling they finally figured out their niche and did very well in that. The WCS production was good, but it felt very much so stream-lined to the other WCS events; the unique feeling of NASL got lost - don't you agree? About Iron Squid, well I am just assuming in it of course - was there an official statement? For me it just stands for the fact that WCS basically sealed the surface of the whole year so that nothing new or innovative could have been sprouting up, e.g. like Iron Squid. They said that they had raised enough money to run two events, and that running a third depended on whether they would manage to secure the (huge amount) of funds necessary to do it. There have been a few hints of Iron Squid returning lately though. | ||
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