EPTp.s. I love reading your posts with your voice :D
Killing WCS America and also ESPORTS probably - Page 8
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y0su
Finland7871 Posts
p.s. I love reading your posts with your voice :D | ||
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McRatyn
Poland901 Posts
On November 15 2013 21:26 coverpunch wrote: + Show Spoiler + StarCraft isn't a team or a national sport though. There's been a major attitude problem from the beginning in treating players from certain countries as representatives of their nations or regions. I think the model should be more like golf or tennis, which do have regional tours for pros but the big money comes from the "Grand Slam" events, which are open to anyone who can qualify either by seeds or through qualifiers. I have to say that I don't like TB's defense of Axiom as a "Korean" team, defined mostly because the players and their resources are all Korean. Which isn't even true, considering the owner-manager is British, the current team handler is Chinese-American, and the content team is presumably all Americans (at least not all Koreans). And it doesn't make much sense when the players are given some distance as independent contractors. It's simply a team that happens to have all Korean players on it. There's nothing wrong with that, just as there's nothing wrong with the Utah Jazz having a team that is almost entirely composed of black players, despite the fact that only 2.5% of the population of Utah is black and none of the players are native to Utah. I will agree that the problem with WCS is that it promised to be some kind of unifying body for all the existing events but instead hijacked them into its own structure. I think more events, region-locked or not, is really necessary and I liked that point that events are lacking even (especially?) in Korea. I don't see any hypocrisy in Axiom's players participating in WCS America while TB advances ShoutCraft America as an event to promote regional competition within NA only. I don't like the idea of keeping the WCS system but region-locking it to keep Koreans out. I think they are big events that purport to seek the hardest competition to find the best players, and thus they should be open. More specific tournaments like IEM and HSC can do whatever they want to limit players and the community should encourage more of such events. If I were to make a suggestion, it would be to have WCS be a unified ranking system and maybe support the various scenes from a distance (to culminate at Blizzcon). It desperately needs some name changes. Korea can have the Code S/Code A system because such a large proportion of Korea's talent is concentrated in Seoul, which is totally different from other areas like the US or EU. Or if we insist on region-locking, then change the proportion of points to account for the relative strength of its participants. That makes a lot of sense. I especially agree with your view of what physical sport should SC be measured against. Noone watches Polish tennis because, guess what, there is hardly any. What we do watch is Polish players playing around the world, nearly none of them even training in Poland. This kind of comparison puts issues like region locking in an entirely new perspective when you imagine region locking Wimbledon because the last Brit to win it before Murray did so in 1936. The WCS format is not perfect, hell it may even be flawed in some ways, no doubt. But just straight up region locking feels a bit like killing a fly with a sledgehammer. I belive more increment changes are in place. Ninja edit: forgot some letters here and there ;P. Good and detailed post but maybe think about not feeding trolls so much TB. I know you want to inform people but you go twice or thrice and if it still doesn't help just stop. No need to rile yourself up. Cheers  | ||
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Junho.C
United States73 Posts
On November 16 2013 00:31 TotalBiscuit wrote: I guess you think repeating a point that people already laughed at you for will somehow win you this argument. Please issue me the guidelines for how many times is ok to criticize WCS. I'd like to make sure that I am fully complaint with your regulation. I'm glad that you have to find support from others to feel validated. I would say the guideline should follow along the extent of your fellow eSports personalities. While they also criticized the system, they knew when to stop. You are still doing it and you used that criticism to hype up your tournament. Why is it that someone who criticizes so much are rustled by few criticisms toward yourself? | ||
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Tchado
Jordan1831 Posts
I'll have to side with TB 100% on this one , he speaks with logic , and from a valid business point of view , this "hypocrisy" some trolls here talk about comes from lack of insight into the world of business , I don't blame them for it. As another post on this thread says , non-region lock WCS is the reality blizzard created , if a business wants to survive , it has to play by these rules , there is no hypocrisy in playing by the established rules to do what you are fucking supposed to do to begin with while criticizing it if you keep in mind the golden rule of business.....generate revenue. In order to generate revenue , TB had to play by the established WCS rules to insure the survivability of his establishment , and because he gives a fuck about sc2 , he criticizes the wcs system because he wants to see a better global e-sports scene, which again will help him bring in revenues if it happens , I think any 10 year old reading this will get the picture , it's standard business practice. Keep up the good work TB. Edit : The whole point of my post is , surviving in the world of business ( and e-sports is a part of it ) , and having negative thoughts about your business environment that you are stuck with are 2 separate things. | ||
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coverpunch
United States2093 Posts
On November 16 2013 00:44 Tchado wrote: hmmm interesting discussion. I'll have to side with TB 100% on this one , he speaks with logic , and from a valid business point of view , this "hypocrisy" some trolls here talk about comes from lack of insight into the world of business , I don't blame them for it. As another post on this thread says , non-region lock WCS is the reality blizzard created , if a business wants to survive , it has to play by these rules , there is no hypocrisy in playing by the established rules to do what you are fucking supposed to do to begin with while criticizing it if you keep in mind the golden rule of business.....generate revenue. In order to generate revenue , TB had to play by the established WCS rules to insure the survivability of his establishment , and because he gives a fuck about sc2 , he criticizes the wcs system because he wants to see a better global e-sports scene, which again will help him bring in revenues if it happens , I think any 10 year old reading this will get the picture , it's standard business practice. Keep up the good work TB. Edit : The whole point of my post is , surviving in the world of business ( and e-sports is a part of it ) , and having negative thoughts about your business environment that you are stuck with are 2 separate things. Just FYI, the golden rule of business is NOT generating revenue. I have to say it because it is a terrible misconception that the ultimate goal of a business is to get money because that leads to the kind of amoral and exploitative attitudes that nobody wants. The ultimate goal of a business is to provide goods or services that people want. Money is the measuring stick by which you gauge whether the business is producing something people want (effectiveness) at an acceptable cost (efficiency). So money is certainly important but please realize there's a distinction between the measuring stick and the goal. | ||
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istandwithmitt
Brazil117 Posts
On November 15 2013 23:51 TotalBiscuit wrote: "nobody cares about this" thousands of views, hundreds of responses, you being one of them. Oldest fallacy in the book. "LOOK AT HOW MUCH I DON'T CARE ABOUT THIS. GUYS? LOOK AT IT! I DON'T CARE, HONEST!" what lol? I don't care. Most people don't give a fuck about this whole thing your posting about. You're just throwing a hissy fit over a small minority people talking shit about you, axiom on the internet. Learn to take things in stride rather than getting in slap fights with people over little things like this all the time. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On November 16 2013 00:40 Junho.C wrote: I'm glad that you have to find support from others to feel validated. I would say the guideline should follow along the extent of your fellow eSports personalities. While they also criticized the system, they knew when to stop. You are still doing it and you used that criticism to hype up your tournament. Why is it that someone who criticizes so much are rustled by few criticisms toward yourself? Actually, knowing my shit is what makes me feel validated. I'm not entirely sure how you feel validated, I guess ignorance is equally powerful when it's thick enough. what lol? I don't care. Most people don't give a fuck about this whole thing your posting about. You're just throwing a hissy fit over a small minority people talking shit about you, axiom on the internet. Learn to take things in stride rather than getting in slap fights with people over little things like this all the time. Hundreds of replies, 15,000+ views. You are arguing with public numbers and are another example of "we want transparency except when its inconvenient for us" Also posting "LOOK AT HOW MUCH I DON'T CARE" again. | ||
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ETisME
12391 Posts
you can even have foreign players to play in your local region team. I am still not convinced but whatever, I do like your tournaments and axiom :D Good players will shine wherever they play, bad players will always be playing under their shadow no matter where they go | ||
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DotPdf
United States37 Posts
Thanks TB! | ||
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istandwithmitt
Brazil117 Posts
On November 16 2013 00:57 TotalBiscuit wrote: Actually, knowing my shit is what makes me feel validated. I'm not entirely sure how you feel validated, I guess ignorance is equally powerful when it's thick enough. Hundreds of replies, 15,000+ views. You are arguing with public numbers and are another example of "we want transparency except when its inconvenient for us" Also posting "LOOK AT HOW MUCH I DON'T CARE" again. Alex Garfield's cock is shaped like an L & Nazgul eats cereal out of a urinal. I wonder when they're going to make their thread & try & get in lil slapfights with me lol. I don't know why you think I have some issue with transparency? I don't even really know what you mean by that. I just think it's hilarious that you have such a persecution complex that you're here arguing with people over something so insignificant. But yeah 15,000 views of people watching you have a meltdown lol must be super important. | ||
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Tchado
Jordan1831 Posts
On November 16 2013 00:56 coverpunch wrote: Just FYI, the golden rule of business is NOT generating revenue. I have to say it because it is a terrible misconception that the ultimate goal of a business is to get money because that leads to the kind of amoral and exploitative attitudes that nobody wants. The ultimate goal of a business is to provide goods or services that people want. Money is the measuring stick by which you gauge whether the business is producing something people want (effectiveness) at an acceptable cost (efficiency). So money is certainly important but please realize there's a distinction between the measuring stick and the goal. Yeah I do agree with that 100% , what you said and what I said are actually 2 sides of the same coin , scholars have been divided on this issue for a long time , and they still argue about it in some schools of business thought. Think of it like this , in order to make revenue you need to provide goods and services , but to provide more goods and services you need to make profit...etc , it's an endless circle , so saying which ever side is the golden rule is ok because in the end , no business will survive by having just one side , and no one is dumb enough to venture into the world of business with 1 side. TBH I just wanted to bring the point out , I didnt care much to explain it , thanks man  | ||
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Lorch
Germany3683 Posts
You say you sent your team to US as you just had to in the best interest of the team, yet some of your players were main stays in code s in the past (especially ryung) and pretty much all of them would have at least been capable of making it into code a, plus none of them made it to blizzcon anyways. If you truly care as much about the US scene as you said you would have told your players to stay in KR to protect the NA scene, yet you did sent them there. And then you try to farm a market of people who are interested in watching NA players. To me you just helped to create a mass of people who are disappointed in WCS NA (just how you bitched about WCS when it was announced only to cast it (aka support it) a few weeks later) to have them as viewers for your next project. Sadly you seem to enjoy replying to people who dislike you in a very aggressive and mean way so you'll probably pick one point of my post, deny it and then tell me how much of a fool I am. On top of that you display yourself as the saint who only does starcraft cause he loves it so much and would make more money with youtube in the same time. It reminds me of how blizzard talks about only doing esports cause they love it so much, yet they killed off professional brood war to let star 2 shine... Please go do youtube if you loose so much money doing starcraft instead. You don't have to be the saint... | ||
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Junho.C
United States73 Posts
On November 16 2013 00:57 TotalBiscuit wrote: Actually, knowing my shit is what makes me feel validated. I'm not entirely sure how you feel validated, I guess ignorance is equally powerful when it's thick enough. Hundreds of replies, 15,000+ views. You are arguing with public numbers and are another example of "we want transparency except when its inconvenient for us" Also posting "LOOK AT HOW MUCH I DON'T CARE" again. The fact that I'm standing up for my belief is enough validation for me. I'm sure the using this thread to shine more attention to Shoutcraft also factored into your making of this thread. | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
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11cc
Finland561 Posts
On November 16 2013 01:10 Lorch wrote: I think most people just dislike your casting. When Moletrap left I thought I'd never had to mute again, then you started casting MLGs. However I don't really mind as I can easily watch the game muted and enjoy some music, however when you cast the finals where hearing the crowd etc. is just part of the experience it just becomes very annoying. If you would just have no idea what you are talking about and add nothing to the experience I'd be perfectly fine, but you actually shout as loud as you can whenever anything happens and that is just beyond annoying. Again you can do whatever you want and I am NOT posting this to hate on you but to answer a question you asked. I think most people like his casting. And those who hate him at least love to hate him so it works out. | ||
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Lorch
Germany3683 Posts
On November 16 2013 01:25 11cc wrote: I think most people like his casting. And those who hate him at least love to hate him so it works out. What I meant was most of the people who dislike him, I'm gonna edit my post to make that clearer. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On November 16 2013 01:16 Junho.C wrote: The fact that I'm standing up for my belief is enough validation for me. I'm sure the using this thread to shine more attention to Shoutcraft also factored into your making of this thread. Your beliefs are dumb and have been debunked already. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On November 16 2013 01:10 Lorch wrote: I think most people (from those who dislike you) just dislike your casting. When Moletrap left I thought I'd never had to mute again, then you started casting MLGs. However I don't really mind as I can easily watch the game muted and enjoy some music, however when you cast the finals where hearing the crowd etc. is just part of the experience it just becomes very annoying. If you would just have no idea what you are talking about and add nothing to the experience I'd be perfectly fine, but you actually shout as loud as you can whenever anything happens and that is just beyond annoying. Again you can do whatever you want and I am NOT posting this to hate on you but to answer a question you asked. You say you sent your team to US as you just had to in the best interest of the team, yet some of your players were main stays in code s in the past (especially ryung) and pretty much all of them would have at least been capable of making it into code a, plus none of them made it to blizzcon anyways. If you truly care as much about the US scene as you said you would have told your players to stay in KR to protect the NA scene, yet you did sent them there. And then you try to farm a market of people who are interested in watching NA players. To me you just helped to create a mass of people who are disappointed in WCS NA (just how you bitched about WCS when it was announced only to cast it (aka support it) a few weeks later) to have them as viewers for your next project. Sadly you seem to enjoy replying to people who dislike you in a very aggressive and mean way so you'll probably pick one point of my post, deny it and then tell me how much of a fool I am. On top of that you display yourself as the saint who only does starcraft cause he loves it so much and would make more money with youtube in the same time. It reminds me of how blizzard talks about only doing esports cause they love it so much, yet they killed off professional brood war to let star 2 shine... Please go do youtube if you loose so much money doing starcraft instead. You don't have to be the saint... Ahh here's Lorch, the guy who has repeatedly told me to GTFO out of the scene. It really is a rogues gallery in here today. Didn't even bother to read the OP, not remotely surprising. Examples of his toxicity and hilarious double-standards include this post just a few short days ago http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=435397¤tpage=5#83 As you can see, Lorcho cares so much about the NA scene that he wished for an NA specific event to fail solely to satisfy his irrational dislike of me. Clearly he is a fantastic representative of the opposing side in this discussion. More double standard toxicity http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=328653¤tpage=2#36 Claims he loves what I do for the scene and has no problem with me as a person, wishes my failure and the failure of my event. Classy. Other examples of Lorcho being a shithead http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=19524496 In which Lorcho laughs at the retirement of Genna and claims that the players shouldn't be on my team because of his irrational dislike of me. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=19426578 Celebrating the fact that MLG is not doing SC2 anymore because it might mean that I stop casting. THE COMEDY JUST KEEPS ROLLING! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=138967¤tpage=2830#56596 Shits on NA scene and all the players in SHOUTcraft America just to have a dig at me, BUT HE REALLY SUPPORTS THE NA SCENE GUYS, HONEST. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=411563¤tpage=3#50 Insults Schamtoos casting, but just can't stop himself from having a dig at me too. Guy is clearly obsessed. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=388131¤tpage=20#391 Goes apeshit because I cast a couple of proleague matches. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=387936¤tpage=2#30 Apparently I am not even worthy to cast an FFA http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=385519¤tpage=22#428 Don't hate too much on the new guys folks, unless they're Schamtoo because fuck that guy. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=380884¤tpage=3#48 I JUST CANNOT STOP TALKING ABOUT TOTALBISCUIT http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=321940¤tpage=2#40 Honestly guys, there are professional casters with knowledge in Bronze league. I am not making this up. Please pay attention to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306189¤tpage=3#42 It makes me hard to come to threads about events TotalBiscuit has organised and complain about his casting. I just cannot stop. I may have a problem http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=241664¤tpage=23#459 But no honest I really like TB, he worked fine with Apollo. Except for all those posts where I said he didn't. There you have it folks, just a small sample of Lorchos history of irrational dislike lasting OVER 2 YEARS! That only took 5 minutes to find via search, I can't imagine how much more of it there is. | ||
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FilthyRake
United States473 Posts
Junho is as much of a troll here on TL as he is on reddit, so no huge surprise. Just ignore him and keeping doing awesome things | ||
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ggofthejungle
Romania392 Posts
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