EPTIs region lock meant to be you can only participate in the WCS section for either KR, EU, or NA depending on where you're a permanent resident? Is it nationality based? Are you locked permanently into a specific region but if you were to move to a new country you'd still stay in that old region? I feel like there are a lot of different ways people are interpreting region lock, just wondering what the actual definition is.
Killing WCS America and also ESPORTS probably - Page 10
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Pazuzu
United States632 Posts
Is region lock meant to be you can only participate in the WCS section for either KR, EU, or NA depending on where you're a permanent resident? Is it nationality based? Are you locked permanently into a specific region but if you were to move to a new country you'd still stay in that old region? I feel like there are a lot of different ways people are interpreting region lock, just wondering what the actual definition is. | ||
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Badjas
Netherlands2038 Posts
 . I also agree with you on the local versus global competition. I had formed that opinion privately already when the wcs thing popped up initially. It makes sense as a good position for any (e)sports to be in, but it can't form out of thin air... Bigger organized sports have all kinds of supporting organizations that help out with formalities and rulesets etc.And thanks BisuDagger. I am posting this as a positive message because 'that idiot' needs to be drowned out. | ||
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TheDougler
Canada8304 Posts
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On November 16 2013 05:15 Pazuzu wrote: I have a question about what people are actually referring to when they say region lock, since I've seen it used in various settings before. Is region lock meant to be you can only participate in the WCS section for either KR, EU, or NA depending on where you're a permanent resident? Is it nationality based? Are you locked permanently into a specific region but if you were to move to a new country you'd still stay in that old region? I feel like there are a lot of different ways people are interpreting region lock, just wondering what the actual definition is. It means different things to different people but personally I think you should be living in the region on at least a semi-permanent basis to participate. So valid student visa, work visa, something like that. | ||
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R3DT1D3
285 Posts
On November 16 2013 05:13 TotalBiscuit wrote: They only don't have a teamhouse in Korea because they had to shut down their existing one. They had a teamhouse in Korea when they first entered WCS, so that would require some fairly short memories from some people Short memories? On the internet? Never. I would wager people have already forgotten who won the Season 1 finals of each region so it's not much of a stretch for them to incorrectly assume WCS started after the team house was shut down. Fair point though, and part of it is that you respond a hell of a lot more than TL or EG ever will which attracts more criticism than otherwise would be the case of other teams. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25771 Posts
Nazgul has done interviews where he's been very critical of the SC2 tournament structure/other features when compared to DOTA iirc. Again I don't care particularly, to me it is not hypocrisy to want to do things better while not exiting the scene entirely in a huff. If Blizzard didn't have such a monopoly on the game, the servers and other things then yes, I'd be more sympathetic to people being critical of teams that take WCS money but are critical, but it's nigh-on impossible to have tournaments etc without Blizzard's consent/involvement. | ||
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Pazuzu
United States632 Posts
On November 16 2013 05:23 TotalBiscuit wrote: It means different things to different people but personally I think you should be living in the region on at least a semi-permanent basis to participate. So valid student visa, work visa, something like that. And so the goal of this would be to (for example) prevent objectively stronger korean players from coming into WCS AM and thus preventing american players from being able to play sustainably (sans prize money)? So people like Polt would be able to play in WCS AM (Student at a UT school), but someone like Ryung, to use your example, would not? Is there a concern about the relative popularity of having different regions with fairly high play differentials (ie WCS KR having a much higher average level of play than WCS AM if region lock is implemented)? | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On November 16 2013 05:28 Pazuzu wrote: And so the goal of this would be to (for example) prevent objectively stronger korean players from coming into WCS AM and thus preventing american players from being able to play sustainably (sans prize money)? So people like Polt would be able to play in WCS AM (Student at a UT school), but someone like Ryung, to use your example, would not? Is there a concern about the relative popularity of having different regions with fairly high play differentials (ie WCS KR having a much higher average level of play than WCS AM if region lock is implemented)? I tend to agree with Destinys point on this, that the majority of viewers do not know enough about the game for that play differential to matter. While most can see the difference between a mid-tier foreign player and a high-tier Korean if they go against each other, watching 2 foreigners go at it is entirely fine for most people and if we didn't tell them they were foreigners, most would not be able to notice. I would expect WCS to take a small dip for a while if it region-locked and then gradually go back to former levels as players had the opportunity to establish themselves. Taking advantage of the relatability of these players with more personality driven content would also benefit the tournament. | ||
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tili
United States1332 Posts
On November 16 2013 05:38 TotalBiscuit wrote: I tend to agree with Destinys point on this, that the majority of viewers do not know enough about the game for that play differential to matter. While most can see the difference between a mid-tier foreign player and a high-tier Korean if they go against each other, watching 2 foreigners go at it is entirely fine for most people and if we didn't tell them they were foreigners, most would not be able to notice. I would expect WCS to take a small dip for a while if it region-locked and then gradually go back to former levels as players had the opportunity to establish themselves. Taking advantage of the relatability of these players with more personality driven content would also benefit the tournament. Hm, I strongly disagree with this, and honestly, it's a bit condescending towards people who watch. The difference between WCS Finals and HSC is ENORMOUS. The games at HSC are laughable in comparison.... not in a bad way, but everything just feels completely different. That's like saying a casual observer wouldn't notice the difference between college basketball and the NBA... no, simply not true. Watching Jaedong and Scarlett play has a very different feel. I don't think an argument for regional lock will ever be able to avoid an obvious decrease in game quality(to at least half of viewers), and that's not necessarily a deciding reason... but it is an unavoidable one. | ||
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Zandar
Netherlands1541 Posts
TB most of us <3 you | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On November 16 2013 05:28 Pazuzu wrote: And so the goal of this would be to (for example) prevent objectively stronger korean players from coming into WCS AM and thus preventing american players from being able to play sustainably (sans prize money)? So people like Polt would be able to play in WCS AM (Student at a UT school), but someone like Ryung, to use your example, would not? Is there a concern about the relative popularity of having different regions with fairly high play differentials (ie WCS KR having a much higher average level of play than WCS AM if region lock is implemented)? No, the goal would be that if these objectively stronger Korean players wanted to come into WCS AM and prevent American players from sustaining themselves, they'd have contribute to the North American scene by living here. It'd raise the skill level of the region if they practiced/competed more in North America than in Korea, and in turn give North American players exposure to the higher skill level; which is a fundamental problem with why NA lags so far behind Korea. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On November 16 2013 07:41 tili wrote: Hm, I strongly disagree with this, and honestly, it's a bit condescending towards people who watch. The difference between WCS Finals and HSC is ENORMOUS. The games at HSC are laughable in comparison.... not in a bad way, but everything just feels completely different. That's like saying a casual observer wouldn't notice the difference between college basketball and the NBA... no, simply not true. Watching Jaedong and Scarlett play has a very different feel. I don't think an argument for regional lock will ever be able to avoid an obvious decrease in game quality(to at least half of viewers), and that's not necessarily a deciding reason... but it is an unavoidable one. Read Twitch chat sometime and tell me that viewers actually know enough to tell the difference. The games at HSC are laughable because barely anyone is taking it seriously and most of them are probably drunk at this point. Also you're having casters play in groups, it's to be expected. If you actually put active, competitive NA players against each other then put Koreans against each other but don't tell the audience, a lot of viewers would not be able to tell the difference without having the differences pointed out by casters. And actually yeah, as a casual observer of basketball, I would not be able to tell the difference between college and NBA. That's a really good example, but it had the opposite effect that you intended I'm afraid. I could not tell the difference. Equal games of a lower calibre are more enjoyable to watch than mismatches. That's pretty much true across the board regardless of what game or sport you're watching. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
Or the difference between the CFL, NFL and college football... I can see a difference with Hockey, though. I swear. (Please don't revoke my Canadian license). | ||
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mikkmagro
Malta1513 Posts
So you can't really say that more Koreans in WCS AM/EU will increase viewership, coz if people wanted to watch the best players, they'd be tuning to WCS KR and GSTL, not to WCS EU and ATC. Also, if WCS AM and EU were region-locked it would not be 'missed opportunities' for Koreans. The problem is the reduction of WCS KR and GSL, not the region-locking of WCS EU and WCS KR. I'm sure a few Koreans would rather get back to playing GSL and OSL, with the increased opportunities they had in 2012, rather than having to bypass the great wall of lag to try and qualify to RO16, and then spend thousands of dollars on flights to travel to the other side of the world to participate in a tournament, when they'd normally just have to get a taxi ride to the studio. | ||
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tili
United States1332 Posts
On November 16 2013 08:36 TotalBiscuit wrote: Read Twitch chat sometime and tell me that viewers actually know enough to tell the difference. The games at HSC are laughable because barely anyone is taking it seriously and most of them are probably drunk at this point. Also you're having casters play in groups, it's to be expected. If you actually put active, competitive NA players against each other then put Koreans against each other but don't tell the audience, a lot of viewers would not be able to tell the difference without having the differences pointed out by casters. And actually yeah, as a casual observer of basketball, I would not be able to tell the difference between college and NBA. That's a really good example, but it had the opposite effect that you intended I'm afraid. I could not tell the difference. Equal games of a lower calibre are more enjoyable to watch than mismatches. That's pretty much true across the board regardless of what game or sport you're watching. That's your opinion, and I disagree.... I don't know how that makes you right? Honestly, you need to adjust your tone in your PR. You sound self-righteous and combative. That being said, I respect what you do for the community and enjoy your content. Also, twitch chat is the WORST example of what the community is. If that was it, then we should all just stop.... | ||
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AnachronisticAnarchy
United States2957 Posts
Tendency for aggressiveness aside, the world needs more people who are like that. Apathy is too easy these days when everything seems to be going to hell. Smart people that'll continue to fight the good fight past the point of reason are the single greatest resource for human society. I say this after reading through the whole thread, by the way. | ||
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StatixEx
United Kingdom779 Posts
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On November 16 2013 10:37 tili wrote: That's your opinion, and I disagree.... I don't know how that makes you right? Honestly, you need to adjust your tone in your PR. You sound self-righteous and combative. That being said, I respect what you do for the community and enjoy your content. Also, twitch chat is the WORST example of what the community is. If that was it, then we should all just stop.... Ahh, so your counter-argument was to attack my perceived tone and feign offense vs actually arguing my points. I don't need to adjust anything. You can either like it or lump it. Pandering to others is dishonesty. Well, from the statistics we have, it doesn't seem as though higher skill matches necessarily attract more viewers. Whilst obviously there are no statistics from GOMtv, according to viewership on Twitch, both WCS AM and WCS EU are more popular than WCS KR, and ATC is also a lot more popular than GSTL. Obviously the numbers would be different if we had the data from GOMtv, but there it is. It's also the reason why even if Dear or sOs streamed, they'd never get as many viewers as Grubby or DeMusliM. So you can't really say that more Koreans in WCS AM/EU will increase viewership, coz if people wanted to watch the best players, they'd be tuning to WCS KR and GSTL, not to WCS EU and ATC. Also, if WCS AM and EU were region-locked it would not be 'missed opportunities' for Koreans. The problem is the reduction of WCS KR and GSL, not the region-locking of WCS EU and WCS KR. I'm sure a few Koreans would rather get back to playing GSL and OSL, with the increased opportunities they had in 2012, rather than having to bypass the great wall of lag to try and qualify to RO16, and then spend thousands of dollars on flights to travel to the other side of the world to participate in a tournament, when they'd normally just have to get a taxi ride to the studio. Yeah there is no correlation. WCS EU finals are consistently the highest viewed despite that being the easiest region. There's a number of contributing factors, which include the strength of ESLs production and casting team as well as the importance of the European viewing demographic. But you do not see the most skillful games there. There's plenty of foreigner vs foreigner competition in those events that gets excellent viewership, much higher than WCS America which by that point is almost exclusively Korean competition in the RO8 onwards. http://www.fuzic.nl/events/overall/all-time/average-desc/ has proof of that. Correlate the events, see that yes there is a desire to watch foreigner competition and that the factors differentiating the viewership can be found elsewhere. I think there is a level that viewers expect and enjoy and that level is not as high as some people believe it to be. As long as you are seeing good pros put on good games, people will watch it. The GSL thing is always difficult to do comparisons with because of the often obscene times it airs and the fact that GOM obfuscates the numbers on its player so we don't have true numbers. You do not need the best play for people to watch and as much as many vocal people will say "I only watch the highest level", that's comparable to that amusing study that happened recently where the majority said "I order my coffee black" but in reality actually drank the milkiest lattes, because they felt that saying they liked their coffee black would earn them more respect. On the subject of the Korean competition, from what I've heard from Koreans you're right. The whole problem stems from a lack of opportunities for Koreans IN Korea. If there was enough of it, we wouldn't need to have a bunch of them shipping themselves off to other WCS regions but as it stands there are literally several hundred players in Korea that could on a good day take a game from any other player in the world, but only 32 spots in Premier for them to fight for and well, if you aren't in GSTL or a member of Kespa, you have nowhere else to play on a regular basis. | ||
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Thrill
2599 Posts
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schaf
Germany1326 Posts
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