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On November 16 2013 11:36 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 10:37 tili wrote:On November 16 2013 08:36 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 16 2013 07:41 tili wrote:On November 16 2013 05:38 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 16 2013 05:28 Pazuzu wrote:On November 16 2013 05:23 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 16 2013 05:15 Pazuzu wrote:
I have a question about what people are actually referring to when they say region lock, since I've seen it used in various settings before.
Is region lock meant to be you can only participate in the WCS section for either KR, EU, or NA depending on where you're a permanent resident? Is it nationality based? Are you locked permanently into a specific region but if you were to move to a new country you'd still stay in that old region? I feel like there are a lot of different ways people are interpreting region lock, just wondering what the actual definition is.
It means different things to different people but personally I think you should be living in the region on at least a semi-permanent basis to participate. So valid student visa, work visa, something like that. And so the goal of this would be to (for example) prevent objectively stronger korean players from coming into WCS AM and thus preventing american players from being able to play sustainably (sans prize money)? So people like Polt would be able to play in WCS AM (Student at a UT school), but someone like Ryung, to use your example, would not? Is there a concern about the relative popularity of having different regions with fairly high play differentials (ie WCS KR having a much higher average level of play than WCS AM if region lock is implemented)? I tend to agree with Destinys point on this, that the majority of viewers do not know enough about the game for that play differential to matter. While most can see the difference between a mid-tier foreign player and a high-tier Korean if they go against each other, watching 2 foreigners go at it is entirely fine for most people and if we didn't tell them they were foreigners, most would not be able to notice. I would expect WCS to take a small dip for a while if it region-locked and then gradually go back to former levels as players had the opportunity to establish themselves. Taking advantage of the relatability of these players with more personality driven content would also benefit the tournament. Hm, I strongly disagree with this, and honestly, it's a bit condescending towards people who watch. The difference between WCS Finals and HSC is ENORMOUS. The games at HSC are laughable in comparison.... not in a bad way, but everything just feels completely different. That's like saying a casual observer wouldn't notice the difference between college basketball and the NBA... no, simply not true. Watching Jaedong and Scarlett play has a very different feel. I don't think an argument for regional lock will ever be able to avoid an obvious decrease in game quality(to at least half of viewers), and that's not necessarily a deciding reason... but it is an unavoidable one. Read Twitch chat sometime and tell me that viewers actually know enough to tell the difference. The games at HSC are laughable because barely anyone is taking it seriously and most of them are probably drunk at this point. Also you're having casters play in groups, it's to be expected. If you actually put active, competitive NA players against each other then put Koreans against each other but don't tell the audience, a lot of viewers would not be able to tell the difference without having the differences pointed out by casters. And actually yeah, as a casual observer of basketball, I would not be able to tell the difference between college and NBA. That's a really good example, but it had the opposite effect that you intended I'm afraid. I could not tell the difference. Equal games of a lower calibre are more enjoyable to watch than mismatches. That's pretty much true across the board regardless of what game or sport you're watching. That's your opinion, and I disagree.... I don't know how that makes you right? Honestly, you need to adjust your tone in your PR. You sound self-righteous and combative. That being said, I respect what you do for the community and enjoy your content. Also, twitch chat is the WORST example of what the community is. If that was it, then we should all just stop.... Ahh, so your counter-argument was to attack my perceived tone and feign offense vs actually arguing my points. I don't need to adjust anything. You can either like it or lump it. Pandering to others is dishonesty.
.... That is exactly what I was implying. You didn't make any points. There was nothing to respond to. You just said 'well, I couldn't tell the difference between college and NBA', which, if you watch basketball at all would be stupidly obvious.
I don't know why you are trying to make this into an argument. I'm expressing an opinion, you are expressing yours, you don't need to beat me and vice versa. We can happily disagree 
And, I plan to lump it. It's just my opinion.
There is a difference between being non-combative and 'pandering', btw.
To have a discussion you have to accept the other side as having valid opinions/points. And saying that everyone who disagrees with you is simply wrong/stupid/mean etc. is reductive. People care about this game. People care about you. And, I, for one, am just trying to give my 2 cents.
<3
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On November 16 2013 13:07 schaf wrote:
I don't know why it's featured...
The blog wasn't selected; TB as a community figure/contributor gets featured (i.e. anything he writes is automatically in featured blogs.)
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What Total Biscuit is trying to say without saying it is that.... The SC2 community, and Teamliquid.net in particular, have the craziest expectations.
Starcraft 2 sucks because the fan base is terrible. Blizzard makes bad decisions because the fan base sucks, and they don't trust them, and I don't blame them. This blog in particular is a perfect example of what's happening here - Total Biscuit waited until WCS was ALL done, then he decided to run a tournament to show off REAL NA talent instead of Koreans who play in WCS AM because it was the easiest path (which back fired on some of them... haha). What happens? People criticize him and call him a hypocrite for running a tournament with NO KOREAN players, especially ones that are on his team.
Total Biscuit is right. This community is cannibalizing itself, and the reason the game sucks is not because of any poor design. Everyone points at the poor design because they see BW where everything was fucking great, and none of this shit existed. Everything worked for that game! Surely it must be the game design for we are not receiving the same prosperous response that happened with BW!
Guess what? It's not the game. It's not even really Blizzard. It's not TB, it's not DotA, or LoL, or Hearthstone. It's the fan base, and honestly, people have to change themselves if that's the case. Starcraft 2 may be revived later down the road like a phoenix born from the ashes of it's death (oooh, generic metaphor!), but as far as I can see, the fan base is going to chew it up until there's nothing left UNLESS there's a change in ideals. I find that unlikely, but who knows.
TL;DR - Chances are if you disagree with this blog, YOU are killing esports you mother fucker. Stop it.
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Australia1191 Posts
On November 15 2013 23:54 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 18:39 ZodaSoda wrote:
Oh my goodness, you silly Drama Queen, you're like this in EVERY scene you're interested in...
Wanna know why? Because I give a shit. People that don't care usually have nothing to say. Nothing but worthless ad hominem and no contribution to the discussion. Shame on you. People that don't give a shit don't put on tournaments. People that don't give a shit don't try to educate the community on things they don't understand. How about you celebrate the people that give a shit instead of trying to tread on them hmm?
Yeah but to use analogy you might understand better...
You arnt going to like every Biscuit in the Barrel
It's fine for you to be like this when its truly necessary, but you overreact and exaggerate a lot in almost every aspect of your public and probably private life, to the point that you're becoming the brit who cried wolf.
You're allowed to care and i implore you to do something about it, but stop arguing with people in comments and forums.. its not productive and you know it... or go back to the days you use to argue with people in youtube comments, cause that is no different...
Apply the rule you gave yourself about youtube comments to TL and Reddit.
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The silent majority appreciates your contribution to the community TB.
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Tb, one point that I feel needs more discussion when talking about region-locking wcs is this:
However, if region-locking were to come into effect, I feel Korean competition must be stimulated further. The talent pool in Korea is massive and there aren't enough tournaments for them to play in.
Thats from one of your reply posts one the first page. And I can't help but wonder if region-locking wcs would cripple the Korean player base. I agree that there absolutely needs to be more ways for Korean Starcraft players to win money, within Korea, but where will those opportunities come from? Korea is in a LoL craze right now, there is no denying it. What I would like to ask you is do you think that should wcs become region-locked, that some clever sponsors will seize the chance to create some extra tournaments to accommodate a larger Korean scene?
And following along that line of thought, should region-locking occur and nothing other than wcs and gstl is available in Korea, what would be the effects on Korean and global SC2? Will region-locking provide more opportunities for foreigners, or simply forcibly transfer them from Koreans to foreigners? You have a much better insight and understanding on how this would likely work than I do, and I would love to hear a response.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
That coffee analogy, haha know what you mean.
There is something to be said for the VERY top, pinnacle of any activity, but it's not always in game quality, its other things like prestige and history, crowd hype etc that make it a good viewing experience.
I personally, at least in terms of live viewing watched a lot more NA WCS than the other two regions. Suited my schedule plus my two favourite players were there.
Sloppy/non-optimal games are fun as hell anyway, give me Ward v Gatti any day over a Floyd Mayweather fight.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
More Korean tournaments, more spots for season/global finals and more prize money for the Kr region would be a good start if any lock came in.
I was flabbergasted that it wasn't region locked tbh. I think many of us assumed it would be, and that Koreans could benefit but guys like Polt and Violet who had invested in that region
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On November 16 2013 13:42 Wombat_NI wrote:
More Korean tournaments, more spots for season/global finals and more prize money for the Kr region would be a good start if any lock came in.
I was flabbergasted that it wasn't region locked tbh. I think many of us assumed it would be, and that Koreans could benefit but guys like Polt and Violet who had invested in that region
But where do those tournaments come from? Money doesn't appear out of thin air, and if it does its heading mostly towards league in Korea at the moment. I do think that wcs should be locked, but the potential damage to the Korean scene is I think not being realised.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
Well, travelling tournaments like IEM and the smaller Dreamhacks go all over the shop, maybe throw the Koreans a bone?
That was more an aside, the enforced parity of the prize pools of the WCS regionally would/should change IMO in the case of any soft region lock being brought in.
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On November 16 2013 13:47 HystericaLaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 13:42 Wombat_NI wrote:
More Korean tournaments, more spots for season/global finals and more prize money for the Kr region would be a good start if any lock came in.
I was flabbergasted that it wasn't region locked tbh. I think many of us assumed it would be, and that Koreans could benefit but guys like Polt and Violet who had invested in that region But where do those tournaments come from? Money doesn't appear out of thin air, and if it does its heading mostly towards league in Korea at the moment. I do think that wcs should be locked, but the potential damage to the Korean scene is I think not being realised.
Frankly? From WCSs budget. America and Europe do not deserve equal prizemoney to Korea because they are not equal events. There is speculation about the removal of the grand slams from next years WCS circuit, which should free up a fairly massive chunk of the budget not only in prizemoney but in the massive production and travel costs associated with those events. I'd say you cut Europe and Americas prizepool in half, can all grandslams, use some the freed up budget to create new events in Korea. Lemme be selfish for a moment and say, GSTL. A fantastic opportunity for players to get exposure and for teams to compete for big money. A popular format that resonates with a lot of people. Give that some damn support. We're several teams down, the prizepool isn't big enough, it's not even hosted at a good time for foreigners to watch. I can't watch my own players compete because it's at bloody 4am EST. There's so much that can be done with both the existing formats and the possibility of new ones.
Region-lock WCS and use the remaining budget to take the bloody online element out, get everyone in the studio, create some proper bloody storylines with some real faces and exploit the very thing that foreign players have going for them when it comes to to the viewers and that is relatability. I want to know everything there is to know about OUR WCS players and every shred of downtime in those tournaments should be chock full of content dedicated to telling me that.
If I had unlimited budget and resources, that's how I'd do it.
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I have no idea what the heck is going on, but respects to TB.
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errrrr so as i understand it you don't like the current rules but use them to your advantage while you can?
carry on
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On November 16 2013 14:16 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 13:47 HystericaLaughter wrote:On November 16 2013 13:42 Wombat_NI wrote:
More Korean tournaments, more spots for season/global finals and more prize money for the Kr region would be a good start if any lock came in.
I was flabbergasted that it wasn't region locked tbh. I think many of us assumed it would be, and that Koreans could benefit but guys like Polt and Violet who had invested in that region But where do those tournaments come from? Money doesn't appear out of thin air, and if it does its heading mostly towards league in Korea at the moment. I do think that wcs should be locked, but the potential damage to the Korean scene is I think not being realised. Frankly? From WCSs budget. America and Europe do not deserve equal prizemoney to Korea because they are not equal events. There is speculation about the removal of the grand slams from next years WCS circuit, which should free up a fairly massive chunk of the budget not only in prizemoney but in the massive production and travel costs associated with those events. I'd say you cut Europe and Americas prizepool in half, can all grandslams, use some the freed up budget to create new events in Korea. Lemme be selfish for a moment and say, GSTL. A fantastic opportunity for players to get exposure and for teams to compete for big money. A popular format that resonates with a lot of people. Give that some damn support. We're several teams down, the prizepool isn't big enough, it's not even hosted at a good time for foreigners to watch. I can't watch my own players compete because it's at bloody 4am EST. There's so much that can be done with both the existing formats and the possibility of new ones. Region-lock WCS and use the remaining budget to take the bloody online element out, get everyone in the studio, create some proper bloody storylines with some real faces and exploit the very thing that foreign players have going for them when it comes to to the viewers and that is relatability. I want to know everything there is to know about OUR WCS players and every shred of downtime in those tournaments should be chock full of content dedicated to telling me that. If I had unlimited budget and resources, that's how I'd do it.
I guess you are right, but i don't see blizzard doing it and to be quite frank if i think about it, i dont know if its even worth it.
There is just no big interest in korea, i mean for us esports fans it would be the best thing in the world, but why "waste" money for korea "alone" if nobody cares there?
The viewers are in europe and america, it's just really hard to investe in korea right now.
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On November 16 2013 17:30 cYaN wrote:
errrrr so as i understand it you don't like the current rules but use them to your advantage while you can?
carry on
Yep, it's called living in reality.
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On November 16 2013 11:36 TotalBiscuit wrote:
...On the subject of the Korean competition, from what I've heard from Koreans you're right. The whole problem stems from a lack of opportunities for Koreans IN Korea. ...
One factor which I think is huge, is that SC2 system requirements are too high for most pc bangs in Korea. Big effect on popularity, on supply of new talent, and on demand for small scale tournaments. This issue was brought up not long after SC2 launch and I think worth iterating. I've heard the system requirements argument made by others with experience about the pc bang situation but I don't know how it has changed over the years.
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TBs posts are so adorable... I have a feeling they'd seem way, way more vulgar if you replaced "bloody" with American curse words =P
Anyway, TB, plz consider this. I remember hearing a US congressman say, in regard to lobbyists, something along these lines, "It's their job to stop me from doing my job." I'm as much of a moth to the internet flames as anyone, but dude, you gotta work on ignoring the one or two morons who are too stupid/stubborn/whatever to be logically reasoned with. Good luck
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If their is one person in the esports scene id like to meet, starcraft 2 in particular, it's TB. He's like a nicer version of Destiny. #axiomfighting #TBsaysfuckyoutrolls
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Australia1191 Posts
On November 16 2013 19:32 dWarreN wrote:
If their is one person in the esports scene id like to meet, starcraft 2 in particular, it's TB. He's like a nicer version of Destiny. #axiomfighting #TBsaysfuckyoutrolls
I think you just insulted him worse than any hater ever could have. >.>
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On November 15 2013 12:46 murphs wrote:
Those who aren't convinced aren't worth convincing.
Fuck em.
This TB, x10000 this, fuck em. Real eSports fans know TB is saving us.
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On November 15 2013 12:38 TotalBiscuit wrote:
2) The term "hyper-nationalistic view" implies I'm the KKK of Starcraft. There is nothing hyper-nationalistic about wanting regional competition because this is entirely normal in every other sport, which should be obvious if you pay even the slightest bit of attention to other sports. American teams do not go and compete in other American football, basketball or baseball leagues in other countries because well, they would crush everybody. By staying the hell out of those leagues (not that the leagues would let them in to begin with), those countries have a chance to develop their own scenes and become competitive inside their region. For an English example, Italian football teams do not compete in the English Premier league. It's a bit of a funky comparison because English teams frequently hire foreign players to compete, but Barcelona or Juventus can't just go stomping into the Premier league or worse, the First Division and wipe everyone else off the map. Competitions where this stuff can happen exist, things like the Champions League, but the regional competition is left intact and strong as it should be. The view that this should be the case in Starcraft is not "hyper-nationalistic" and it is certainly not "racist" as a few of the less smart members of the community have suggested. It's common bloody sense and if we ignore the lessons of much more successful sports, than we are doomed to make some pretty stupid mistakes.
??
Juve or Barca could pack their stuff, move to Britain and start playing in the English football competition any time they like... really no idea why you are claiming the opposite :o
Edit: not that I don't appreciate TB's efforts - but a lot of people in this community have a very sketchy view on what competition means, or how it's fueled...
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EPT
