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On November 15 2013 16:05 Rekrul wrote:
people are still trying to use faulty ideologies like 'only americans should be allowed in wcs america' to try and let non-koreans have a chance at winning or do well in something? nothing will ever change lol
Faulty is your opinion.
In most sports it works perfectly well.
I like to watch a real american league and a real european league and a real korean league.
This WCS bullshit however made me barely watch anymore.
It's like injecting champions league soccer players into amateur leagues.
Our crappy(compared to usa) national basketball teams usually only compete with eachother on our own national level.
They don't often have to compete with best teams of the world unless there is an international tournament.
And even if they are a lot worse, they still have their fans and audiences.
That's why there are proper national leagues and worldchampionships that both serve another purpose.
The former is lacking in sc2
If there was a really national starcraft league in many countries, I'm pretty sure many more people would still be watching it.
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If you couldn't tell, I'm a bit tired of this. Sometimes I look at this scene and want to scream "WHY WON'T YOU LET ME LOVE YOU?".
I know this feel man. You gotta remember most people really love what you do but there's also a very vocal minority that want to put you down every chance they get.
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On November 15 2013 20:44 Zandar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 16:05 Rekrul wrote:
people are still trying to use faulty ideologies like 'only americans should be allowed in wcs america' to try and let non-koreans have a chance at winning or do well in something? nothing will ever change lol If there was a really national starcraft league in many countries, I'm pretty sure many more people would still be watching it.
We have the EPS in Germany for many years now and even though the EPS is great to support the German scene it is not very popular in Germany. It only still exists because the German market is quite big and because the ESL is fucking awesome.
Dont get me wrong, I absolutely support region lock and a stronger representation of foreigners but just asking for national leagues may be a bit too simple.
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On November 15 2013 12:38 TotalBiscuit wrote:
For an English example, Italian football teams do not compete in the English Premier league. It's a bit of a funky comparison because English teams frequently hire foreign players to compete, but Barcelona or Juventus can't just go stomping into the Premier league or worse, the First Division and wipe everyone else off the map. Competitions where this stuff can happen exist, things like the Champions League, but the regional competition is left intact and strong as it should be.
You might want to revise that example, Italian teams wouldn't exactly stomp in England ... see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013–14_UEFA_Champions_League#Association_ranking
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StarCraft isn't a team or a national sport though. There's been a major attitude problem from the beginning in treating players from certain countries as representatives of their nations or regions. I think the model should be more like golf or tennis, which do have regional tours for pros but the big money comes from the "Grand Slam" events, which are open to anyone who can qualify either by seeds or through qualifiers.
I have to say that I don't like TB's defense of Axiom as a "Korean" team, defined mostly because the players and their resources are all Korean. Which isn't even true, considering the owner-manager is British, the current team handler is Chinese-American, and the content team is presumably all Americans (at least not all Koreans). And it doesn't make much sense when the players are given some distance as independent contractors. It's simply a team that happens to have all Korean players on it. There's nothing wrong with that, just as there's nothing wrong with the Utah Jazz having a team that is almost entirely composed of black players, despite the fact that only 2.5% of the population of Utah is black and none of the players are native to Utah.
I will agree that the problem with WCS is that it promised to be some kind of unifying body for all the existing events but instead hijacked them into its own structure. I think more events, region-locked or not, is really necessary and I liked that point that events are lacking even (especially?) in Korea.
I don't see any hypocrisy in Axiom's players participating in WCS America while TB advances ShoutCraft America as an event to promote regional competition within NA only. I don't like the idea of keeping the WCS system but region-locking it to keep Koreans out. I think they are big events that purport to seek the hardest competition to find the best players, and thus they should be open. More specific tournaments like IEM and HSC can do whatever they want to limit players and the community should encourage more of such events.
If I were to make a suggestion, it would be to have WCS be a unified ranking system and maybe support the various scenes from a distance (to culminate at Blizzcon). It desperately needs some name changes. Korea can have the Code S/Code A system because such a large proportion of Korea's talent is concentrated in Seoul, which is totally different from other areas like the US or EU. Or if we insist on region-locking, then change the proportion of points to account for the relative strength of its participants.
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Sorry this is just a horrible argument, how can you say that your korean players in the tournament does not effect american entries.... obviously TL and EG have the same effect but stop acting like it has none. Blaming the "system" and saying other koreans would be their if you weren't is like saying, "i don't support children drinking alcohol but due to a loophole il sell it. Don't worry if I don't someone else will"
-Sorry if that sounds harsh but I've always learned to put your money where your mouth is, shout craft is a great idea GL with part two!
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United States33680 Posts
careful, we're going to start calling you American soon
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On November 15 2013 21:55 MysterySC wrote:
Sorry this is just a horrible argument, how can you say that your korean players in the tournament does not effect american entries.... obviously TL and EG have the same effect but stop acting like it has none. Blaming the "system" and saying other koreans would be their if you weren't is like saying, "i don't support children drinking alcohol but due to a loophole il sell it. Don't worry if I don't someone else will"
-Sorry if that sounds harsh but I've always learned to put your money where your mouth is, shout craft is a great idea GL with part two!
That's a really weird comparison and makes no sense:
There is no "loophole" in selling children alcohol, because by law it is forbidden. And that's the difference between selling children alcohol, which is forbidden by law, and foreign players competing in WCS America, which is not forbidden at all in their rules.
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Reading Junho's comments just gave my brain cancer
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Hm wow Totalbiscuit posting a giant "I'm a victim; everyone's out to get me" post about something no one cares about I'm shocked
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It's almost 2014 and TB STILL gets extremely worked up over the misinformed opinions of ppl online and continues to right massive rant after rant trying to defend himself against faceless trolls on the web.
Why do you keep doing this to yourself
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Austria24422 Posts
Why TB posted this? Caring is sharing. TB shares a lot.
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Esports is a lot more than just sc2. (Referring to the title in particular)
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On November 15 2013 22:54 istandwithmitt wrote:
Hm wow Totalbiscuit posting a giant "I'm a victim; everyone's out to get me" post about something no one cares about I'm shocked
"nobody cares about this"
thousands of views, hundreds of responses, you being one of them.
Oldest fallacy in the book. "LOOK AT HOW MUCH I DON'T CARE ABOUT THIS. GUYS? LOOK AT IT! I DON'T CARE, HONEST!"
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On November 15 2013 18:39 ZodaSoda wrote:
Oh my goodness, you silly Drama Queen, you're like this in EVERY scene you're interested in...
Wanna know why? Because I give a shit. People that don't care usually have nothing to say. Nothing but worthless ad hominem and no contribution to the discussion. Shame on you. People that don't give a shit don't put on tournaments. People that don't give a shit don't try to educate the community on things they don't understand. How about you celebrate the people that give a shit instead of trying to tread on them hmm?
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On November 15 2013 15:51 zieheuer wrote:Just wrote this on reddit and needed to share Show nested quote +TotalBiscuit: If it were not our players "taking away opportunities" it would be other Korean players. Our players knock other Korean players out of Premier league just as much as they do foreigners. The system is at fault. If not us, some other Korean players. That's just flawed logic, I think it's called a slippery slope. Putting better players into the competition always makes it harder for everyone. If Axiom players kick out other good Koreans, that means that these Axiom players are probably better than the other Korean players, which simply raises the bar, and trying to deny that is stupid.
Ahh, someone else who thinks debate can be won with fallacy points. This will be fun.
"slippery slope". Is actually a fallacy when used incorrectly which here it is, ironically enough. Anyway no, it is not a slippery slope, "a relatively small first step leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant effect". You have no proof that the inclusion of these particular 4 Korean players in the league had the effect of snowballing into large-scale damage to the US Starcraft scene. Indeed I hypothesize the opposite, that the inclusion of these Korean players may have caused some Koreans to not attempt to play in the region because of the possibility of running into them in the RO32 and losing. A mere hypothesis, but it's not like your statement is actually factual. If not us, other Koreans, is the point I stand by.
Show nested quote +TotalBiscuit: We cannot legally tell our players where to play. Each of our players is an independent contractor who makes their own decisions about which tournaments they participate in. We cannot tell a player to go to a specific event and even if we could, we wouldn't because that's not how we treat our players. If they want to play in WCS America, that is their decision, not mine. Every good team needs leadership, but to each their own I guess. But don't use this as an argument that the players make the choice, because you gave them the choice to begin with.
"Do something illegal because GENERIC POINT ABOUT LEADERSHIP". Few lines in and you're already telling me how to run my team. This bodes well for the rest of the post. So let me repeat for the class. It is ILLEGAL to tell independent contractors where to work. The choice is given because it's fucking right to do so and as previously explained, this community would have crucified me if I had kept my players in Korea when they had been given spots in Premier league on a platter. Not only that but it would have made terrible business sense. This was all previously explained but that would have required you to read the OP which you obviously didn't.
Show nested quote +TotalBiscuit: Why is it that Axiom is the only team getting criticised for sending Koreans to WCS America? Such a strange thing to do when we're also providing opportunities for Americans with the SCA tournaments. I suppose the loudest person is the easiest target, but it all strikes me as rather odd. I'm not in favour of any team getting flack for that but it does seem curiously silent when referring to EG or Teamliquid. Because EG and Teamliquid strengthen the foreign scene by supporting foreign players. Having a reliable team is much more valueable than one 5000$ tournament. No one will decide to stay or go pro because of this tournament.
More assumptions and fallacies. No one will decide to sty or go pro because of this tournament? What about the last one? Wanna just ignore that $10,000 tournament that happened last time which in fact actually DID cause some players to "stay" pro and also affected the scene? Let's take the example of Kane who decided to move to Europe and take his career more seriously after a victory, joining a team that supports a particular style of training. Or how about State who got himself a team as a result of his placement in the tournament. But hey, let's not let facts get in the way of your ill-informed rambling.
Show nested quote +TotalBiscuit: EG and Teamliquid signed Korean players after their inception because they wanted to win tournaments. Axiom signed Korean players from day 1 because we wanted to help out the Korean scene and particular players within it who were not getting the opportunities they deserved. Axiom signed Koreans because it was easy. Finding and maintaining foreigners across the world and having success with them is really hard. To give the ex Slayers members a room to play and then seeing oneself on the high horse compared to EG and TL when it comes down to the motives and actions is a bit questionable.
Signed Koreans because it is easy. HAHAHAHA oh holy shit you have no idea what you're talking about. Axiom signed Koreans but IT'S A KOREAN TEAM. You think the massive cost of a Korean team-house is easy? You think communicating with and managing a group of people that don't speak your language is easy? You think flying them out of the country half way across the world whenever they want to compete because there aren't any bloody tournaments outside of WCS available to them in Korea anymore is easy? Signing Koreans is easy is the stupidest thing I've heard this thread, congratulations. I have foreigners battering down my door to join the team, they want to train in Korea and they're willing to do a lot in order to do it. Getting Koreans, especially some from actual KESPA teams, is a goddamn nightmare.
So we can safely sum up your argument as follows: "I have no experience what-so-ever with any of the subject matter I'm trying to discuss, but damn I will post about it anyway".
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On November 15 2013 23:54 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 18:39 ZodaSoda wrote:
Oh my goodness, you silly Drama Queen, you're like this in EVERY scene you're interested in...
Wanna know why? Because I give a shit. People that don't care usually have nothing to say. Nothing but worthless ad hominem and no contribution to the discussion. Shame on you. People that don't give a shit don't put on tournaments. People that don't give a shit don't try to educate the community on things they don't understand. How about you celebrate the people that give a shit instead of trying to tread on them hmm?
My issue with you is that I feel that you criticize things for publicity too often. You criticize WCS and Blizzard for not region locking, which is a popular opinion and attracts publicity, too much while your team is taking advantage of the system that you are criticizing against. Criticizing the WCS format once or twice is fine, many people have done that. Anything more is just riding on the hate train for the continued Korean dominance in WCS AM, which your players are a part of. Criticizing WCS now in the Shoutcraft hype article when WCS is over is just purely for publicity.
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You overreact but I guess you know it TB.
Why do you answer to all this stuff, you have no place going out of your way to debate with random people on the internet.
Just do what you do and people will applause or critique you on the outcome, don't mind the haters that will say nonsensical things no matter what.
Keep up the good job mate, also give duel of champions a chance, it's an awesome card game on pc.
*oh and take a look at this, do you know anything about it? seems legit
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On November 16 2013 00:24 Junho.C wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 23:54 TotalBiscuit wrote:On November 15 2013 18:39 ZodaSoda wrote:
Oh my goodness, you silly Drama Queen, you're like this in EVERY scene you're interested in...
Wanna know why? Because I give a shit. People that don't care usually have nothing to say. Nothing but worthless ad hominem and no contribution to the discussion. Shame on you. People that don't give a shit don't put on tournaments. People that don't give a shit don't try to educate the community on things they don't understand. How about you celebrate the people that give a shit instead of trying to tread on them hmm? My issue with you is that I feel that you criticize things for publicity too often. You criticize WCS and Blizzard for not region locking, which is a popular opinion and attracts publicity, too much while your team is taking advantage of the system that you are criticizing against. Criticizing the WCS format once or twice is fine, many people have done that. Anything more is just riding on the hate train for the continued Korean dominance in WCS AM, which your players are a part of. Criticizing WCS now in the Shoutcraft hype article when WCS is over is just purely for publicity.
I guess you think repeating a point that people already laughed at you for will somehow win you this argument.
Please issue me the guidelines for how many times is ok to criticize WCS. I'd like to make sure that I am fully complaint with your regulation.
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EPT
