On November 17 2013 12:49 TotalBiscuit wrote: Viewers don't want to watch the highest possible level, that's not their priority, just looking at the WCS numbers proves that.
Speak for yourself. Everyone I know, including casuals and ppl I dragged to WCS Toronto that didn't really like starcraft could 100% notice the difference between a top NA game (low level) and a game between top koreans. Just the same way anyone can notice the difference between a high school basketball game and the NBA finals. It's the silliest pro-region lock argument one can make.
You can have region lock OR equal skill. You can't have both. Foreigners just aren't good enough to sustain that.
I'm a hardcore fan and I watch every WCS region right now... if we get region lock, I will only watch korean, guaranteed. My friend is a casual fan, and will only watch a few matches anyway. He won't waste time on low level play, he will only (and I will only link him to) top highlight WCS Kr matches.
None of this really matters, it's anecdotal evidence vs hard numbers. EU, weakest region, most foreigner vs foreigner matches, highest views, consistently. You can claim all you want that everyone really wants the "highest level of play" but they constantly prove otherwise by not rewarding that level of play with their eyeballs.
WCS EU airs during prime-time in EU, stop trying to make things more complicated than they are. Stream numbers for all SC2 streams go up during good hours for Europe, it doesn't matter who's playing.
Also WCS AM kept up in viewer numbers with WCS KR even though both are mostly Koreans and the community considers Tastosis better casters. Time zones are everything.
you're doing the right thing by your players and your team, thats what you are supposed to do. but you are also a team manager now, copping flak is an unfortunate part of your job, i love that you had the passion to write all this out to give clarity and shut the haters up. but you will need to learn to just accept that you're going to be hated by a lot of people, but hopefully you will find solace in the fact that you are loved by so many more people. those people just dont go blowing their tops on forums because theyre not stupid angry retards like the haters are. if you continue to respond like this you're going to get very exhausted very quickly, and it will affect the good work you do for your team.
my advice is to keep that chin held high, and keep on keeping on, try to read less of the bullshit, and address only the bullshit that youre worried may actually have an impact if you don't clear it up.
if you are really passed college age and educated why cant you see the point?
Let me help you realize it in a below college level of explaining.
You are a terran player, you went to play for TvT. Marines killed you. Will you not make marines ever?
This is another example (hightschool drop out level) Everybody hates tax, but still people pay taxes. When you get your pay, you complain about tax but still you pay your tax (I hope you do)
On November 17 2013 12:49 TotalBiscuit wrote: Viewers don't want to watch the highest possible level, that's not their priority, just looking at the WCS numbers proves that.
Speak for yourself. Everyone I know, including casuals and ppl I dragged to WCS Toronto that didn't really like starcraft could 100% notice the difference between a top NA game (low level) and a game between top koreans. Just the same way anyone can notice the difference between a high school basketball game and the NBA finals. It's the silliest pro-region lock argument one can make.
You can have region lock OR equal skill. You can't have both. Foreigners just aren't good enough to sustain that.
I'm a hardcore fan and I watch every WCS region right now... if we get region lock, I will only watch korean, guaranteed. My friend is a casual fan, and will only watch a few matches anyway. He won't waste time on low level play, he will only (and I will only link him to) top highlight WCS Kr matches.
None of this really matters, it's anecdotal evidence vs hard numbers. EU, weakest region, most foreigner vs foreigner matches, highest views, consistently. You can claim all you want that everyone really wants the "highest level of play" but they constantly prove otherwise by not rewarding that level of play with their eyeballs.
Only time will tell. Fact is as flawed as it was, WCS 2013 > > > > > > > WCS 2012 and only biased people will disagree with that. Hard region locking is BAD for the scene, and will only help to segregate the regions MORE.
We have to think like qxc has said in his interview. In order to grow, you don't have to play less koreans. You just have to have MORE chances to play against players better than you. That's what drives improvement. Foreigners sustain view due to novelty, and due to the "foreigner vs. korean" storylines, which are honestly some of the BEST in sc2. Nobody will watch avg NA vs. avg NA month in and month out, there is nothing impressive to be seen, and the novelty will quickly wear off. That's what you and most people don't understand.
At least blizzard agrees with me and has stated that they will not do a hard region lock, and only "make it easier for players from the scene to make it, while still needing the high level skill to participate instead of being gifted spots" (paraphrasing). We should be encouraging and promoting raising the level of skill outside of korea, not lowering it by banning other players from participating. I'm all for grassroots leagues that are region locked, I really am (love shoutcraft NA for example)... but please for the love of god DO NOT create a unified system to find "the best players in the world" and then prevent the actual best players in the world from participating in 2/3s of the damn thing and pretend that the two other leagues actually mean jack sh*t in terms of that goal.
On November 17 2013 12:49 TotalBiscuit wrote: Viewers don't want to watch the highest possible level, that's not their priority, just looking at the WCS numbers proves that.
Speak for yourself. Everyone I know, including casuals and ppl I dragged to WCS Toronto that didn't really like starcraft could 100% notice the difference between a top NA game (low level) and a game between top koreans. Just the same way anyone can notice the difference between a high school basketball game and the NBA finals. It's the silliest pro-region lock argument one can make.
You can have region lock OR equal skill. You can't have both. Foreigners just aren't good enough to sustain that.
I'm a hardcore fan and I watch every WCS region right now... if we get region lock, I will only watch korean, guaranteed. My friend is a casual fan, and will only watch a few matches anyway. He won't waste time on low level play, he will only (and I will only link him to) top highlight WCS Kr matches.
None of this really matters, it's anecdotal evidence vs hard numbers. EU, weakest region, most foreigner vs foreigner matches, highest views, consistently. You can claim all you want that everyone really wants the "highest level of play" but they constantly prove otherwise by not rewarding that level of play with their eyeballs.
Only time will tell. Fact is as flawed as it was, WCS 2013 > > > > > > > WCS 2012 and only biased people will disagree with that. Hard region locking is BAD for the scene, and will only help to segregate the regions MORE. .
That is not a fact, that is entirely your opinion. I'm also pretty sure that those who watched and went to the WCS Europe Finals in 2012 will strongly disagree with your assertion.
On November 17 2013 12:49 TotalBiscuit wrote: Viewers don't want to watch the highest possible level, that's not their priority, just looking at the WCS numbers proves that.
Speak for yourself. Everyone I know, including casuals and ppl I dragged to WCS Toronto that didn't really like starcraft could 100% notice the difference between a top NA game (low level) and a game between top koreans. Just the same way anyone can notice the difference between a high school basketball game and the NBA finals. It's the silliest pro-region lock argument one can make.
You can have region lock OR equal skill. You can't have both. Foreigners just aren't good enough to sustain that.
I'm a hardcore fan and I watch every WCS region right now... if we get region lock, I will only watch korean, guaranteed. My friend is a casual fan, and will only watch a few matches anyway. He won't waste time on low level play, he will only (and I will only link him to) top highlight WCS Kr matches.
None of this really matters, it's anecdotal evidence vs hard numbers. EU, weakest region, most foreigner vs foreigner matches, highest views, consistently. You can claim all you want that everyone really wants the "highest level of play" but they constantly prove otherwise by not rewarding that level of play with their eyeballs.
Only time will tell. Fact is as flawed as it was, WCS 2013 > > > > > > > WCS 2012 and only biased people will disagree with that. Hard region locking is BAD for the scene, and will only help to segregate the regions MORE. .
That is not a fact, that is entirely your opinion. I'm also pretty sure that those who watched and went to the WCS Europe Finals in 2012 will strongly disagree with your assertion.
I think even the head of blizzard eSports admitted during blizzcon that WCS 2012 was awful in terms of accomplishing what it set out to do, which was find the best players in the world. I really didn't think there was an argument against that... I'm not saying it wasn't entertaining, but it really failed at doing what it's supposed to do.
Again, not saying that region locked tournaments are bad, I like them and they 100% have their place in esports. There just isn't a place for hard region lock in the "let's find the best players in the world" WCS tournament. I don't think anyone that knows anything could say with a straight face that Blizzcon 2012 gathered all the best players in the world for the best matchups between the top players. Despite all its flaws, most will agree Blizzcon 2013 did just that.
EDIT: As I've said before in different threads, if we're willing to look at much higher prize pools and number of blizzcon seeds going to the harder regions, I think the region lock problem would fix itself
On November 17 2013 12:49 TotalBiscuit wrote: Viewers don't want to watch the highest possible level, that's not their priority, just looking at the WCS numbers proves that.
Speak for yourself. Everyone I know, including casuals and ppl I dragged to WCS Toronto that didn't really like starcraft could 100% notice the difference between a top NA game (low level) and a game between top koreans. Just the same way anyone can notice the difference between a high school basketball game and the NBA finals. It's the silliest pro-region lock argument one can make.
You can have region lock OR equal skill. You can't have both. Foreigners just aren't good enough to sustain that.
I'm a hardcore fan and I watch every WCS region right now... if we get region lock, I will only watch korean, guaranteed. My friend is a casual fan, and will only watch a few matches anyway. He won't waste time on low level play, he will only (and I will only link him to) top highlight WCS Kr matches.
None of this really matters, it's anecdotal evidence vs hard numbers. EU, weakest region, most foreigner vs foreigner matches, highest views, consistently. You can claim all you want that everyone really wants the "highest level of play" but they constantly prove otherwise by not rewarding that level of play with their eyeballs.
Only time will tell. Fact is as flawed as it was, WCS 2013 > > > > > > > WCS 2012 and only biased people will disagree with that. Hard region locking is BAD for the scene, and will only help to segregate the regions MORE. .
That is not a fact, that is entirely your opinion. I'm also pretty sure that those who watched and went to the WCS Europe Finals in 2012 will strongly disagree with your assertion.
I think even the head of blizzard eSports admitted during blizzcon that WCS 2012 was awful in terms of accomplishing what it set out to do, which was find the best players in the world. I really didn't think there was an argument against that... I'm not saying it wasn't entertaining, but it really failed at doing what it's supposed to do.
Again, not saying that region locked tournaments are bad, I like them and they 100% have their place in esports. There just isn't a place for hard region lock in the "let's find the best players in the world" WCS tournament. I don't think anyone that knows anything could say with a straight face that Blizzcon 2012 gathered all the best players in the world for the best matchups between the top players. Despite all its flaws, most will agree Blizzcon 2013 did just that.
EDIT: As I've said before in different threads, if we're willing to look at much higher prize pools and number of blizzcon seeds going to the harder regions, I think the region lock problem would fix itself
Honestly if they wanted to find the best players in the world they would give far more priority to Korean competition than they currently do. WCS 2012 was the Starcraft olympics with a mix of successful and not so successful regional competitions. WCS 2013 was this weird hybrid where they basically said "well we want the best players in the world for the finals but we're still gonna do this regional thing anyway but we're gonna let Koreans play in all 3 for some reason but it's still NA and Europe guys honest and...". That's the problem. I don't think WCS 2013 really knew what it actually wanted to be and that had a lot to do with rushing things out the door. Please remember that Blizzard provided no travel support to Koreans who played in WCS Europe and WCS America. If they were truly looking for the best they wouldn't have made it so damn expensive for people to get there.
I don't think WCS 2012 failed, it just didn't generate the level of interest that they were hoping for. I think if anything WCS Europe Finals was a stellar example of what can be done with regional-competition.
TB you're a trooper and a valuable voice. Thanks once more for speaking out. You're not just indulging your own sensibilities here, these are things that need to be communicated and you do a very good job of it
first: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=435535¤tpage=11#207 i totally agree.. most of us thought that they would lock.. but blizzard will be "activ" quite a bit more before they blizzes of old' again (read: make sounder decisions regarding the sc2 "scene".. (they will probably when they finish settling their "monopoly" in every way, ravaging whatever there is in KR in the meantime) .. they are only doing what they feel is required .. grmblshitgrmbl)
tb, about the nutjobs .. just remember monty: :D they will never stop.. i get that you want to be pro active (and tl is not far from reddit in that respect.. as far as great need for informed vocal responses goes) .. but do consider stopping quicker .. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=435535¤tpage=11#203 .. after 2/3 responses (in this blog for instance) apply to tl what u applied to yt .. then blush at how many people come to do it for you (rebuke/confront/correct wrong statements from nutjobs)
just for the info, i am opposed to region locking (as i think sc should never be less than what it is.. and koreans should be able to go live abroad because they smashed and earned money and that would be how the "foreigners" grow and become stronger.. but that's me) .. this takes nothing away from how much i (and many others) admire you for being so frontal about your point of view .. numbers don't lie and my pov on the matter doesn't "serve the scene" business wise, yours does .. because you act upon said opinions (actions do speak louder than words...) plus http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=435535¤tpage=13#246 ..we do.. (smile and go on to other things) we only see the good you are trying to do.. and are sad about the "purity" of competition lost in locking as a viable strategy to get more "action" for sc.. we support events being crafted even though we might disagree on the issue, because we are all in this together AND we know it ... (i didn't discuss the "two face" issue.. because there is no issue.. 1/ you speak your mind about what you think can help the scene and try to implement it on your scale (thank you greatly for that) 2/ while things are as they are, you do with what is .. nothing wrong with that.. and even if you did/do use it as marketing ploy .. it is good pr for starcraft.. (not to mention a requirement in your job description) the issue is being recognized discussed .. not swept under the carpet and (again) that is good for the scene.. so it s a win win in my book)
ty for doing, and as my mum always says 'never let turkeys get you down'
and do make an awesome shoutcraft (again ty)for us all (including you)
ps: i am a bit sad that tl reps or team members don't voice their pov more, one way or another
On November 17 2013 12:49 TotalBiscuit wrote: Viewers don't want to watch the highest possible level, that's not their priority, just looking at the WCS numbers proves that.
Speak for yourself. Everyone I know, including casuals and ppl I dragged to WCS Toronto that didn't really like starcraft could 100% notice the difference between a top NA game (low level) and a game between top koreans. Just the same way anyone can notice the difference between a high school basketball game and the NBA finals. It's the silliest pro-region lock argument one can make.
You can have region lock OR equal skill. You can't have both. Foreigners just aren't good enough to sustain that.
I'm a hardcore fan and I watch every WCS region right now... if we get region lock, I will only watch korean, guaranteed. My friend is a casual fan, and will only watch a few matches anyway. He won't waste time on low level play, he will only (and I will only link him to) top highlight WCS Kr matches.
None of this really matters, it's anecdotal evidence vs hard numbers. EU, weakest region, most foreigner vs foreigner matches, highest views, consistently. You can claim all you want that everyone really wants the "highest level of play" but they constantly prove otherwise by not rewarding that level of play with their eyeballs.
Only time will tell. Fact is as flawed as it was, WCS 2013 > > > > > > > WCS 2012 and only biased people will disagree with that. Hard region locking is BAD for the scene, and will only help to segregate the regions MORE. .
That is not a fact, that is entirely your opinion. I'm also pretty sure that those who watched and went to the WCS Europe Finals in 2012 will strongly disagree with your assertion.
I think even the head of blizzard eSports admitted during blizzcon that WCS 2012 was awful in terms of accomplishing what it set out to do, which was find the best players in the world. I really didn't think there was an argument against that... I'm not saying it wasn't entertaining, but it really failed at doing what it's supposed to do.
Again, not saying that region locked tournaments are bad, I like them and they 100% have their place in esports. There just isn't a place for hard region lock in the "let's find the best players in the world" WCS tournament. I don't think anyone that knows anything could say with a straight face that Blizzcon 2012 gathered all the best players in the world for the best matchups between the top players. Despite all its flaws, most will agree Blizzcon 2013 did just that.
EDIT: As I've said before in different threads, if we're willing to look at much higher prize pools and number of blizzcon seeds going to the harder regions, I think the region lock problem would fix itself
Honestly if they wanted to find the best players in the world they would give far more priority to Korean competition than they currently do. WCS 2012 was the Starcraft olympics with a mix of successful and not so successful regional competitions. WCS 2013 was this weird hybrid where they basically said "well we want the best players in the world for the finals but we're still gonna do this regional thing anyway but we're gonna let Koreans play in all 3 for some reason but it's still NA and Europe guys honest and...". That's the problem. I don't think WCS 2013 really knew what it actually wanted to be and that had a lot to do with rushing things out the door. Please remember that Blizzard provided no travel support to Koreans who played in WCS Europe and WCS America. If they were truly looking for the best they wouldn't have made it so damn expensive for people to get there.
I don't think WCS 2012 failed, it just didn't generate the level of interest that they were hoping for. I think if anything WCS Europe Finals was a stellar example of what can be done with regional-competition.
Hm, OK. But why does this have to be a WCS thing? If it is so self-evident that regional competition would work out so well, why doesn't someone in Europe make their own league featuring only European players?
The base model of WCS - provide regular competition during the week while on weekends independent tournaments take place - is pretty reasonable, I believe. Amount of content, regional focus, distribution of prize money, etc. have to be fine-tuned, of course, but it must be so hard in a business as volatile as SC2. I´m not surprised Blizzard acts as indecisively as they do in the role they´re taking within competitive SC2.
On November 17 2013 12:49 TotalBiscuit wrote: Viewers don't want to watch the highest possible level, that's not their priority, just looking at the WCS numbers proves that.
Speak for yourself. Everyone I know, including casuals and ppl I dragged to WCS Toronto that didn't really like starcraft could 100% notice the difference between a top NA game (low level) and a game between top koreans. Just the same way anyone can notice the difference between a high school basketball game and the NBA finals. It's the silliest pro-region lock argument one can make.
You can have region lock OR equal skill. You can't have both. Foreigners just aren't good enough to sustain that.
I'm a hardcore fan and I watch every WCS region right now... if we get region lock, I will only watch korean, guaranteed. My friend is a casual fan, and will only watch a few matches anyway. He won't waste time on low level play, he will only (and I will only link him to) top highlight WCS Kr matches.
On November 17 2013 12:49 TotalBiscuit wrote: Viewers don't want to watch the highest possible level, that's not their priority, just looking at the WCS numbers proves that.
Speak for yourself. Everyone I know, including casuals and ppl I dragged to WCS Toronto that didn't really like starcraft could 100% notice the difference between a top NA game (low level) and a game between top koreans. Just the same way anyone can notice the difference between a high school basketball game and the NBA finals. It's the silliest pro-region lock argument one can make.
You can have region lock OR equal skill. You can't have both. Foreigners just aren't good enough to sustain that.
I'm a hardcore fan and I watch every WCS region right now... if we get region lock, I will only watch korean, guaranteed. My friend is a casual fan, and will only watch a few matches anyway. He won't waste time on low level play, he will only (and I will only link him to) top highlight WCS Kr matches.
Without TB and Axiom the scene as a whole would just be that much less exciting, despite what trolls will have you believe TB the majority of the community supports what you do and would be sad to see you silenced by a few idiotic trolls who just want to get their e fame up by riding your.....coat tails. Keep up the good work and keep putting scrubs in their place, Thank you.
Considering the level of TotalBiscuit's total wealth and his connections within the eSports industry i'd rate his over all contribution on a score out of 100 as about 90/100.
He is a great contributor to the eSports scene within the scope of his wealth.
This blog, however, is a petty, bickering item taking his score down to 88/100.
my take on it is this:
TB, do not even try to win a debate with these guys who just want to find stuff wrong with you and your undertakings in eSports. Most of the guys who holler and scream about what a horrible guy you are.. these guys are just unhappy iwth their own lives and their moaning and complaining has nothing to do with you.
Keeping on doing what you do man.. and stop wasting your valuable time with blogs like this.
On November 17 2013 12:49 TotalBiscuit wrote: Viewers don't want to watch the highest possible level, that's not their priority, just looking at the WCS numbers proves that.
Speak for yourself. Everyone I know, including casuals and ppl I dragged to WCS Toronto that didn't really like starcraft could 100% notice the difference between a top NA game (low level) and a game between top koreans. Just the same way anyone can notice the difference between a high school basketball game and the NBA finals. It's the silliest pro-region lock argument one can make.
You can have region lock OR equal skill. You can't have both. Foreigners just aren't good enough to sustain that.
I'm a hardcore fan and I watch every WCS region right now... if we get region lock, I will only watch korean, guaranteed. My friend is a casual fan, and will only watch a few matches anyway. He won't waste time on low level play, he will only (and I will only link him to) top highlight WCS Kr matches.
None of this really matters, it's anecdotal evidence vs hard numbers. EU, weakest region, most foreigner vs foreigner matches, highest views, consistently. You can claim all you want that everyone really wants the "highest level of play" but they constantly prove otherwise by not rewarding that level of play with their eyeballs.
Only time will tell. Fact is as flawed as it was, WCS 2013 > > > > > > > WCS 2012 and only biased people will disagree with that. Hard region locking is BAD for the scene, and will only help to segregate the regions MORE. .
That is not a fact, that is entirely your opinion. I'm also pretty sure that those who watched and went to the WCS Europe Finals in 2012 will strongly disagree with your assertion.
I think even the head of blizzard eSports admitted during blizzcon that WCS 2012 was awful in terms of accomplishing what it set out to do, which was find the best players in the world. I really didn't think there was an argument against that... I'm not saying it wasn't entertaining, but it really failed at doing what it's supposed to do.
Again, not saying that region locked tournaments are bad, I like them and they 100% have their place in esports. There just isn't a place for hard region lock in the "let's find the best players in the world" WCS tournament. I don't think anyone that knows anything could say with a straight face that Blizzcon 2012 gathered all the best players in the world for the best matchups between the top players. Despite all its flaws, most will agree Blizzcon 2013 did just that.
EDIT: As I've said before in different threads, if we're willing to look at much higher prize pools and number of blizzcon seeds going to the harder regions, I think the region lock problem would fix itself
Honestly if they wanted to find the best players in the world they would give far more priority to Korean competition than they currently do. WCS 2012 was the Starcraft olympics with a mix of successful and not so successful regional competitions. WCS 2013 was this weird hybrid where they basically said "well we want the best players in the world for the finals but we're still gonna do this regional thing anyway but we're gonna let Koreans play in all 3 for some reason but it's still NA and Europe guys honest and...". That's the problem. I don't think WCS 2013 really knew what it actually wanted to be and that had a lot to do with rushing things out the door. Please remember that Blizzard provided no travel support to Koreans who played in WCS Europe and WCS America. If they were truly looking for the best they wouldn't have made it so damn expensive for people to get there.
I don't think WCS 2012 failed, it just didn't generate the level of interest that they were hoping for. I think if anything WCS Europe Finals was a stellar example of what can be done with regional-competition.
Hm, OK. But why does this have to be a WCS thing? If it is so self-evident that regional competition would work out so well, why doesn't someone in Europe make their own league featuring only European players?
Aside from the fact that there would be a (conceivably) huge knee-jerk reaction to there not being Koreans allowed?
Expense, primarily. Hell someone toss me $250,000 and I'd take a shot at running an NA only tournament if for no other reason than as a proof of concept. Unfortunately I don't have that kind of cash, and I'm not sure that anyone that does wants to take the risk on the relatively volatile eSports scene as it is.
Remember the majority of these things are put on at a financial loss. It would take someone extremely well off to be able to front this kind of money without putting themselves unbelievably far in the hole. Blizzard is invested in the scene as it is, they've taken the responsibility for growing scenes and putting on events on their shoulders. To expect a smaller company or individual to put forth this kind of effort is tough. You need a considerable amount of money to run an event well, and for it to be successful there are some pretty important things you need that cost a ton of money. Needs to be played live, with great casters who are known, and a high production value. Throwing a bunch of fan favorites in an online tournament simply wont generate nearly enough viewers to begin to earn ad revenue enough to support it, regardless of the quality of play.
EPT
