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On October 21 2013 11:48 DannyJ wrote:
When I join a game and 2+ people cant or refuse to speak english (which is like at least half of my games on USeast) I think "Great I can't communicate" not "great they suck". I don't understand why people voluntarily join servers where the odds are the other people can't speak your language. It's really just a total detriment to such a team based game as DOTA.
Pretty much all that needs to be said.
Also, what a timely way to involve yourself in the TL community. Create an account on TL, make a controversial blog and plug your links at the bottom so you gain more traffic from it. 
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On October 21 2013 16:11 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2013 15:54 ishida66 wrote:
I dont think that playing drunk is exclusive to russians. Beyond a certain hour everyone is drunk, be it vodka, tequila or cachaca lol. At least in Sweden, it's almost considered disfunctional to be drinking when you're by the computer. You go out and drink with friends, sitting at home alone drinking is borderline alcoholic level of sad. I would assume that the vast majority of Swedish players who play drunk do so either because they are playing during a party, or after a party before going to bed. At least, that's how it works in southern sweden, might be more drunkyness up north.
After party playing drunk does still count as being drunk though . I used to play after parties a lot, most with axe + counter helix.
it's almost considered disfunctional to be drinking when you're by the computer. sitting at home alone drinking is borderline alcoholic level of sad
I do that sometimes :\
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i learned that "axaxaxaxa" is russian for "hahaha"
lots of shit learned from this game, like united nations stuff really. cyka, cibai (cb), sohai, zzz etc..
yeah this might be true but then chinese are chinesely good, about 80% of the time, when I see chinese chars for names, I heed and take caution if they are on the other team and when they are in my team? i just #yolo random time.
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Your points about probabiliies and how we falsly perceive the russians/brazilians are worse than others is right. Also your point about these countries being so big that they are kinda isolated and don't need to speak other languages is right.
At the end of the day your whole blogpost becomes bullshit because of the language option that Valve gave us. Sure let the Russians play on any server they like but to intentionally pick English language setting and then refuse to speak a single word of English and instead speak Russian which has its own language setting is not excusable.
It is not.
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The take-away from all of this is that Dota is an excercise in patience. There was never a point in hating on demographics because of aforementioned sample-size principle, but it's so widespread now that a lot of players probably even do it subconciously. They should just focus on their own game instead. If they manage to get better theyll escape most of the "tards" or what you want ot call them ^^ Because there's still definately a coherence between lack of skill and use of chat to bm. What I'm saying is that people let it get to them too much.
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I hear many of you stating "Russians are incredibly BM and ruin games" while also asking "Why do Russians queue on server X instead of their own?"
The original statement is the answer. My best friend frequently travels to Ukraine for work and has many Ukrainian friends. They explain it like this. If you think one Russian ruins a game imagine being in a game with 9 Russians. How do you think it will turn out? Forcing polite Russians or Ukrainians to queue up with only Russians is basically a human rights violation. They have a right to escape their incredibly BM servers. Ideally just the polite ones would queue up in Western Europe and NA, but that is not how it is.
Some of our friends who live in Ukraine are happy to tolerate 110 ping to NA East just to avoid the incredible BM that goes on in the Russian Servers, although they prefer Western Europe.
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I am brazilian and I only queue in South America's server and... guess what?
We get A LOT of americans, too!
And.. guess what?
Most of them suck, too!
And yes, I do speak english.
And yes, I do queue for portuguese speakers only.
But... WHO CARES!
I am playing Dota2 in a South American server.
I will get brazilians, peruvians, argentinians, chileans, uruguaians, americans, puerto ricans, canadians, mexicans,..!
If you play in US-East or US-West, you will probably get most of the same guys, you know why?
Because you can triple queue and Dota2 matchmaking queue takes about 4 minutes to find a game!
Goku help you if you are in low priority...
I've managed to win most of the time I got a "foreigner" that didnt speak portuguese.
Do you know why?
Because I made an effort to speak english, spanish or french (once).
Heck! I even got one korean once... he was saying something like "gong gong!!" and I managed to realize that he wanted me to attack after a few times and this scored us several kills!
And, yeah, brazilians usually do get a bad rep on online games, but the reason is far from what you think.
Those reasons happen mostly because of preconceptions that came from a single game (I think it was LineAge2, not sure) that had a "brazilian gang" of trolls, but it ended up spreading as "brazilians are bad at MMOs", then to "brazilians are bad at games and stupid".
I am a moderately good player (sp. for my level) and I've never met an american that could play better than me when queueing.
Does this means all americans suck at the game?
Come on!
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This is a huge pile of bulls.... Honestly, the only thing I agree with is that of course there should no racism and it shouldn't be tolerated but the whole argumentation in this blog is about the worst I've ever heard.
I understand for English people that it's a huge no-no to expect other people to speak your language, but wake up. English is sort of the "global" language and is one of the most useful (just to not say it's a necessity) tools you will ever learn in this globalized world. You will encounter a lot of problems in life if you aren't able to speak English; some places more than others. Comparing English to French, German or Swiss (or whatever language you want to put in here) is just out right retarded. Those languages have nowhere near the same status in our globalized society, and is not the language for our almost all entertainment, media and what not in the world. I do accept people not being able to speak English, that's up to them and it's fine.
However, the thing I dislike the most is the fact that you're actually saying being unable to communicate in a team is totally fine. It's NOT fine. I want to be able to play a team game, where to me the most vital part of it is communication, where I can go in and have fun, enjoy the atmosphere and learn something. Whenever you're forced to play with people who do not speak English, you can't communicate properly and that just removes the most important factor of playing as a team. Why am I not allowed to queue into this? I do not understand. I do realize that it's hard if not impossible to develop a tool that's perfect and will allow me to do this, but posting blogs like this really just doesn't make any kind of sense because it's not true.
On top of that, it's not about where the server is located -- which I have no idea why you thought that was relevant -- but about what it's labelled and who you expect to be playing on it. It's not a Luxemborg server, it's an EU West server that is located in Luxemborg because that makes it best ping wise for the western region of Europe and Valve had the option to set this up. As far as I am aware, the Russian server is also located in Stockholm but this does not make it a Swedish server. Anyway, enough for now I am sure you get my point.
Racism needs to get the hell out of our community though.
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Disrespectful and dismissive. Honestly, I'd agree with points regarding racism, but the way you went about it, ignoring the main issue (*Selecting a language and then not being able to find games where people speak using that language*) and insulting the readers repeatedly using what mostly are straw man arguments, as most of us don't actually believe nation X is all born with downs ... Not my cup of tea. Not the hero we need, but the hero we deserve I guess. I'll just hope that it does good even though I'm sad you couldn't go about it the intellectual way.
PS. Re-read the third paragraph of Bumblebee's post above me please. That's the main issue with this article, and it's even bigger than the stylistic issue.
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Honestly a really poor read, a few counter points to a wrongful idiot pointing fingers at wrongful idiots
Stop getting hung up on the "English thing" It is about playing with people I can communicate with.
Every other game I play I can always make sure I play with people I can communicate with other wise what is the point, the "cant we just all get along.." really must be a different world from the one I live in and the internet amplifies it ten fold, I'm not interested in a United Nations of Dota it's just a foolish notion.
I don't mind where in the world you are form as long as I can communicate with you I am happy, but as I only speak English if you don't then I don't want to play with you full stop.
Again it's why I watch English speaking TV, listen to English speaking radio, read English News papers and visit only English language websites because I can understand what is going on , how hard is that to understand !.
Another person missing the point, so when you listened to casts of games do you listen in a language you don't understand , why didn't we have multilingual casters and panel members like Bruno speaking different languages at TI3 because it would have been stupid.
What is really funny is he posted on a website which only allows English as a language option?(anything else is a ban hammer), and how many languages is pyrion flax announcer available , hypocrite maybe.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On October 22 2013 03:18 Bumblebee wrote:
I understand for English people that it's a huge no-no to expect other people to speak your language, but wake up. English is sort of the "global" language and is one of the most useful (just to not say it's a necessity) tools you will ever learn in this globalized world. You will encounter a lot of problems in life if you aren't able to speak English; some places more than others. Comparing English to French, German or Swiss (or whatever language you want to put in here) is just out right retarded. Those languages have nowhere near the same status in our globalized society, and is not the language for our almost all entertainment, media and what not in the world. I do accept people not being able to speak English, that's up to them and it's fine.
This is a very US- and Western Europe- centric point of view.
For many people who happen to live in any of the ex-USSR countries, English is pretty useless unless you need it specifically for international communication (working in an international company or something like that). If you don't speak the local language (say, Ukrainian or Georgian) chances are that English will get you nowhere, while many people will be able to speak Russian. Even in Poland, which is a part of the EU, I had a hard time communicating in English, and it was often easier to communicate in Russian.
I am sure I don't need to point you at the map to see how huge that territory is.
Now add China, where very few people actually speak English, and India, where only 10% of the population speak English, and Korea, and Japan, and Indonesia... and suddenly English is not as global as you would like to think.
Yes, it definitely is the most widely used international language. It is also very convenient to use English as the 'default' international language across European countries. But within China or CIS, there is absolutely no need to learn English.
Within Dota context, if you look at the stream viewers count, Russian language streams are at least on par with English streams with respect to viewer count, and during the last Starladder finals, which was the most viewed tournament to date outside of The International, there were 150K viewers on the Russian stream and 80K on the English one. I think this can be easily translated to mean that there are as many Russian-speaking players as there are English-speaking players in the Dota community, and more likely the majority of Dota players outside China are Russian speakers.
Now please tell me, if Dota community is not dominated by English speakers, how come when there is a problem in communication it is blamed on people not willing to speak English rather than the other way around?
The communication problem is also not necessarily a language problem most of the time. I am sure that most people who refuse to talk to you in English are in fact able to, only they choose not to. Even if you make the language filter stricter somehow, how do you filter out people simply refusing to communicate?
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On October 22 2013 07:36 Random() wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2013 03:18 Bumblebee wrote:
I understand for English people that it's a huge no-no to expect other people to speak your language, but wake up. English is sort of the "global" language and is one of the most useful (just to not say it's a necessity) tools you will ever learn in this globalized world. You will encounter a lot of problems in life if you aren't able to speak English; some places more than others. Comparing English to French, German or Swiss (or whatever language you want to put in here) is just out right retarded. Those languages have nowhere near the same status in our globalized society, and is not the language for our almost all entertainment, media and what not in the world. I do accept people not being able to speak English, that's up to them and it's fine.
This is a very US- and Western Europe- centric point of view. For many people who happen to live in any of the ex-USSR countries, English is pretty useless unless you need it specifically for international communication (working in an international company or something like that). If you don't speak the local language (say, Ukrainian or Georgian) chances are that English will get you nowhere, while many people will be able to speak Russian. Even in Poland, which is a part of the EU, I had a hard time communicating in English, and it was often easier to communicate in Russian. I am sure I don't need to point you at the map to see how huge that territory is. Now add China, where very few people actually speak English, and India, where only 10% of the population speak English, and Korea, and Japan, and Indonesia... and suddenly English is not as global as you would like to think. Yes, it definitely is the most widely used international language. It is also very convenient to use English as the 'default' international language across European countries. But within China or CIS, there is absolutely no need to learn English. Within Dota context, if you look at the stream viewers count, Russian language streams are at least on par with English streams with respect to viewer count, and during the last Starladder finals, which was the most viewed tournament to date outside of The International, there were 150K viewers on the Russian stream and 80K on the English one. I think this can be easily translated to mean that there are as many Russian-speaking players as there are English-speaking players in the Dota community, and more likely the majority of Dota players outside China are Russian speakers. Now please tell me, if Dota community is not dominated by English speakers, how come when there is a problem in communication it is blamed on people not willing to speak English rather than the other way around?
Don't get hung up on the "English thing" it is a red herring , Dota 2 MM needs some method of allowing players with the same language skills to be able to play together, the problems are as follow
1. Not enough language options.
2. Players selecting language options they can't speak.
3. Zero proper region Settings, allowing players from half the world away to connect to certain regions is problematic.
4. Dota 2 is game it is meant to be fun and enjoyable, I don't get that if I cant understand other players in my team.
This Blog is rubbish and poorly thought out, It just adds to the problems and the replies to it highlight that very point.
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On October 22 2013 07:36 Random() wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2013 03:18 Bumblebee wrote:
I understand for English people that it's a huge no-no to expect other people to speak your language, but wake up. English is sort of the "global" language and is one of the most useful (just to not say it's a necessity) tools you will ever learn in this globalized world. You will encounter a lot of problems in life if you aren't able to speak English; some places more than others. Comparing English to French, German or Swiss (or whatever language you want to put in here) is just out right retarded. Those languages have nowhere near the same status in our globalized society, and is not the language for our almost all entertainment, media and what not in the world. I do accept people not being able to speak English, that's up to them and it's fine.
This is a very US- and Western Europe- centric point of view. For many people who happen to live in any of the ex-USSR countries, English is pretty useless unless you need it specifically for international communication (working in an international company or something like that). If you don't speak the local language (say, Ukrainian or Georgian) chances are that English will get you nowhere, while many people will be able to speak Russian. Even in Poland, which is a part of the EU, I had a hard time communicating in English, and it was often easier to communicate in Russian. I am sure I don't need to point you at the map to see how huge that territory is. Now add China, where very few people actually speak English, and India, where only 10% of the population speak English, and Korea, and Japan, and Indonesia... and suddenly English is not as global as you would like to think. Yes, it definitely is the most widely used international language. It is also very convenient to use English as the 'default' international language across European countries. But within China or CIS, there is absolutely no need to learn English. Within Dota context, if you look at the stream viewers count, Russian language streams are at least on par with English streams with respect to viewer count, and during the last Starladder finals, which was the most viewed tournament to date outside of The International, there were 150K viewers on the Russian stream and 80K on the English one. I think this can be easily translated to mean that there are as many Russian-speaking players as there are English-speaking players in the Dota community, and more likely the majority of Dota players outside China are Russian speakers. Now please tell me, if Dota community is not dominated by English speakers, how come when there is a problem in communication it is blamed on people not willing to speak English rather than the other way around? The communication problem is also not necessarily a language problem most of the time. I am sure that most people who refuse to talk to you in English are in fact able to, only they choose not to. Even if you make the language filter stricter somehow, how do you filter out people simply refusing to communicate?
You're cherry picking your arguments here and ignoring the real issue.
Not being able to speak English is perfectly fine. Queuing with English set as a language when you can't or won't speak English is making the game experience worse for everyone.
The reverse is equally true. I only speak English and if I queued with the Russian language set I'd be a total asshole.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On October 22 2013 07:47 [TGU]SOL wrote:
Don't get hung up on the "English thing" it is a red herring , Dota 2 MM needs some method of allowing players with the same language skills to be able to play together, the problems are as follow
1. Not enough language options.
2. Players selecting language options they can't speak.
3. Zero proper region Settings, allowing players from half the world away to connect to certain regions is problematic.
4. Dota 2 is game it is meant to be fun and enjoyable, I don't get that if I cant understand other players in my team.
This Blog is rubbish and poorly thought out, It just adds to the problems and the replies to it highlight that very point.
Well, my opinion is that the problem is not that much about languages, it is more about people being assholes and refusing to communicate. It is not as clear cut as choosing what language you agree to speak. For example, if someone does speak English, but they get matched with two other people who share another (native) language with them, can you really blame them for talking to each other in their language even if the other two do not understand it? It is bad mannered, but it is natural and I am sure that it is what happens most of the time. Most importantly there is no good way to regulate that.
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On October 22 2013 07:58 Random() wrote:
Well, my opinion is that the problem is not that much about languages, it is more about people being assholes and refusing to communicate. It is not as clear cut as choosing what language you agree to speak. For example, if someone does speak English, but they get matched with two other people who share another (native) language with them, can you really blame them for talking to each other in their language even if the other two do not understand it? It is bad mannered, but it is natural and I am sure that it is what happens most of the time. Most importantly there is no good way to regulate that.
Yes I can blame them, just like this forum you agree to use a certain language when you sign up ( try using another to see what happens) just like selecting a language in game.
Don't agree or select something you are not willing to participate in. the issue is those players should just select their native language , I agree the poor language options in Dota 2 sometimes means this is not possible, but that is an issue for Valve to deal with and do some thing about which Mr Flax didn't have the balls to say.
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I have to add my voice to the chorus of opposition, this blog was mostly just insulting and dismissive and didn't add anything of substance to the debate except for a degrading brand of comedy. Dota 2 is clearly a team game, communication tends to be important in team games. When people queue up to play a game with the wrong language filter, it messes up the game.
It really is that simple. I don't understand how people get the idea that language is irrelevant in a team game that relies on coordinated attacks and spotting. It clearly makes things more difficult and frustrating. How some people assume that this is equivalent to xenophobia is frankly kind of dumb, and also pretty insulting to a lot of people.
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On October 22 2013 07:36 Random() wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2013 03:18 Bumblebee wrote:
I understand for English people that it's a huge no-no to expect other people to speak your language, but wake up. English is sort of the "global" language and is one of the most useful (just to not say it's a necessity) tools you will ever learn in this globalized world. You will encounter a lot of problems in life if you aren't able to speak English; some places more than others. Comparing English to French, German or Swiss (or whatever language you want to put in here) is just out right retarded. Those languages have nowhere near the same status in our globalized society, and is not the language for our almost all entertainment, media and what not in the world. I do accept people not being able to speak English, that's up to them and it's fine.
This is a very US- and Western Europe- centric point of view. For many people who happen to live in any of the ex-USSR countries, English is pretty useless unless you need it specifically for international communication (working in an international company or something like that). If you don't speak the local language (say, Ukrainian or Georgian) chances are that English will get you nowhere, while many people will be able to speak Russian. Even in Poland, which is a part of the EU, I had a hard time communicating in English, and it was often easier to communicate in Russian. I am sure I don't need to point you at the map to see how huge that territory is. Now add China, where very few people actually speak English, and India, where only 10% of the population speak English, and Korea, and Japan, and Indonesia... and suddenly English is not as global as you would like to think. Yes, it definitely is the most widely used international language. It is also very convenient to use English as the 'default' international language across European countries. But within China or CIS, there is absolutely no need to learn English. Within Dota context, if you look at the stream viewers count, Russian language streams are at least on par with English streams with respect to viewer count, and during the last Starladder finals, which was the most viewed tournament to date outside of The International, there were 150K viewers on the Russian stream and 80K on the English one. I think this can be easily translated to mean that there are as many Russian-speaking players as there are English-speaking players in the Dota community, and more likely the majority of Dota players outside China are Russian speakers. Now please tell me, if Dota community is not dominated by English speakers, how come when there is a problem in communication it is blamed on people not willing to speak English rather than the other way around? The communication problem is also not necessarily a language problem most of the time. I am sure that most people who refuse to talk to you in English are in fact able to, only they choose not to. Even if you make the language filter stricter somehow, how do you filter out people simply refusing to communicate?
Im not from Dota, but i want to nitpick on the Polish part. It is true that several years ago Russian was primary foreign language here. It was extremely "popular" (before we became democratic) during the times when my parents where still learning. But nowadays? No chance in hell, everyone look up on US, children start learning English since kindergarten/primary school. Russian became archaic and viewed as the past. It is maybe still prevelent because of it's history but it is pushed back in a very quick manner since several years.
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On October 22 2013 07:36 Random() wrote:
Now add China, where very few people actually speak English, and India, where only 10% of the population speak English, and Korea, and Japan, and Indonesia... and suddenly English is not as global as you would like to think.
You can survive years in Korea and Japan with only English. Same in China. Is the population weak in English compared to most western european countries? Sure, but there's just no language that is even close. These people, at least Japanese and Koreans, ALL study English for many many years, and in the younger generation, I'd be surprised if they are so bad at English that they can't even communicate in Dota. Hell, they study English more in school in Korea than we do in Sweden, the reason we are better at it in general is simply because of Swedish also being a north germanic language and English culture being prevalent here (movies, music, tv shows, internet use).
There simply isn't much of an excuse. "They don't need to know English in their country". They obviously do if they set English as their language in Dota. What they do outside of that situation is up to them.
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I speak german and english, but i ruin the game for everyone. :D :D :D
No power to the Shitlords !
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EPT
